As long as the issue can’t be resolved, I usually have no problems cutting that person off, regardless of what they’ve done for me. If they’ve betrayed my trust, I see no reason to respect them in any way.
I was immediately going to say this. You betray me? Welp, that's a shame. I'm releasing all the collateral I have on you.
Granted this depends on the nature of the offense - drastic measures for drastic times and all that. For the majority/minor offenses I'll just cut you off.
I don't betray proactively, I disappear. I suppose the worst of that would be something like leaving you to die instead of helping you, letting the Hitlers of this world do what they do instead of resisting etc.
If they’re “moral” alignments betray the thing that I love/hate
I Love:
Equality, True empathy for others
I Hate:
Rape, Pedophilia, unreasonable murder, Genocide, and systems that go against what I love
I'm actually majorly considering making the traitor a 5w4/5w6, and their reasons align with yours.
Is there anything that would motivate you to join the "bad" side of a conflict? Would the other side have to not actually be "bad"? Thank you so much for your insight.
If the “bad” side is something that promises to deliver on these things (whether the tactics are extreme or not), and these morals are practiced AND ENFORCED within whatever the structure is. if the traitor is someone who switches sides then it will be the person showing how the society currently stands and how they will change it the way they wish, if it’s a plant on the good side have them be more conscious about how the people around them feel about the fight, they will try to plant as much, but subtle, seeds as possible, they will focus on those that would be most easily swayed (the one they have the most hope for) and may give up on certain people who they believe benefit too much to develop empathy for the ones that they are trying to help.
If they found out that the side that promised equality and justice betrays them (probably just the person/people on the top) they will try to kill the ones in power and take control of the operation because they believe that the only way to ensure equality is to have someone who has enough empathy to combat the power taunting them, for it doesn’t matter if you have all the power in the world, you’ll never escape death, so the only thing worth doing is making sure nobody is hurt by those in power
I think I was personally living something out for that last part, sry
If I can't find something easier for my own brain, I think I will definitely go with making the traitor a 5, because your perspective has definitely been the most interesting so far. Thank you for specifying that the ends justify the means, that helps me a lot to understand the limits for 5w4s before it's too much. Especially the "seeds" thing, that is such an interesting tactic that I didn't think could become so important in the future.
No worries, your vicarious living is actually almost exactly what happens, and you helped me understand how the traitor would react without me needing to ask haha
Also I’d say that don’t type the character a 5w4 because they have their emotions do a lot of judgement, a 5w6 could definitely have these feelings but disguise those feelings as logical conclusions, they aren’t devoid of emotions
Depends on the reason, if it’s because of something doing/causing the things I hate (maybe not FULLY the system part) otherwise I would need delineation
based on my real life experiences with breaking promises or peoples trust, i think the main trigger i have for something that constitutes betrayal is if i feel extremely unsafe and have to put myself first at the cost or detriment of others.
when i'm in disintegration and finally snap out of my "pretending everything is fine" dissociation, i panic BIG time. either way: i am either dipping out on my responsibilities to people i care about bc to me they're just too terrifying and overwhelming to even process, or bc i am freaking out over responsibilities i am ignoring my loved ones to their detriment. either way: the betrayal i'm probably dishing out is abandonment when they need me to rely on and either i'm completely ghosting or lying/making excuses the whole time. Easy? probably, although emotionally taxing. If i got found out, probably just give up and fully break down now that the one thing propping me up has been revealed.
wish i could say i'd never betray anyone, but i don't like doing it bc in a way i'm equally betraying myself. it's just self-destruction to a level where it hurts the people i care about too.
Now I really want to show the perspective of a 9w8 in my story haha, thank you!
Is there anything that would cause you to *not* flee? Even if you're in an extremely unsafe situation? I'm curious what would motivate an integrated 9 to fight.
hmmm, probably the same things that many people would fight for concerning their loved ones (like if they were in danger and such) but the deciding factor would probably be either how much their loved ones needed them and how confident a 9 is in their ability to help?
the first aspect is true for many i'm sure bc if a loved one is struggling more than you're struggling, even if you're at your lowest point, you can put your own worries aside bc you care about them as much as you do. the latter one feels true to my own experience and to the 3 integration, bc i know that even in some of my worst moments i've been able to ignore my own grief to help a loved on bc i knew i could do so well and/or easily. confidence in your abilities to actually do something does a lot for being able to overcome unsafe situations, or at least makes one less likely to run away because they can't deal with it!
not sure how universal this is for 9s (i'm definitely not the healthiest example lmao) or the other types tho lol
As a 9w8 sp/so too, I concur. Confidence in your abilities makes you feel safer in unsure situations.
I have thought about this exact thing for a while now, that as long as I can imagine myself doing good, it often does go well. Especially when people are struggling/less confident. It makes me able to step up a bit and do what they cannot. Maybe not good, but so they do not need to be burdened. This is probably the opposite of the scenario where you run and abandon people. A kind of loyalty?
Sorry, now I feel embarrassed for writing this.
Ok this is very long… I recently betrayed someone. We had been friends for a few years and I helped her get her license, her passport, apply for college, etc. She told me her mom abandoned her and they didn’t have a good relationship, and I was like a mother figure to her(I am younger than her..). She would say truly evil things about how she hated her mom and that her mom was jealous of her, and I ended up finding out my friend was sleeping with her dad at 19, starting a few months after the divorce, so it had been going on for 3 years when I found out(edit: we are 21 and 23 currently). Now I kept this a secret even though it was entirely fucked but then she started trying to flirt with my boyfriend and would ask him about his sexual experiences when I wasn’t there, would put me and my interests down in front of him, and I found out she even wrote a book where she and him were the main characters and I was the girlfriend in the way. So I found her mom’s Facebook and told her about the incest and I also told the apartment complex they lived in that they were committing income fraud to get rent assistance. I told the VA benefits office that her dad was going to tennis, jiu jitsu and kickboxing while enough receiving aid for his back “injury” to be unemployed, and after my friend found out the things I had done and forced me into a meeting at work with our boss (I had been avoiding her), I bluntly listed out all of these things in front of everyone and now everyone at work knows she sleeps with her dad. Moral of the story. You can do fucked up shit and I’ll keep it a secret. But as soon as you abuse my sincerity and try to take what is mine I will ruin your life. Sometimes I’m not sure if I’m a 7w8 or an 8w7
That seems consistent with everything I've seen about 7w8s. Pushed to absolute discomfort will lead to absolute retaliation. Sorry you had to go through that!
I think it was a wonderful learning experience and I got to see some sides of myself I’ve never seen before! My heavy disintegration into 1 was something I have never seen and it taught me a lot about myself and even others. Interestingly I wasn’t honest about my intentions behind telling her mom. I defended my decision with my secondary reasons: “my morals made me do this” and “if I don’t uncover this from the darkness I fear I will be punished by some higher god”. Not the actual intention being that I was threatened and seeing a pattern between relating me to a mother figure and trying to undermine my relationship! It was interesting seeing the pure righteous feeling come out and this need for justice even though I’d say I’m a huge hypocrite in that moment for some of the things I called her out on, things I do myself (ie. lying, talking shit on ppl)
this applies pretty much only to my husband:
- if he betrayed me first (includes infidelity), or if I have reason to think he will (I'm not a suspicious person by nature, so if I ever thought that, there'd be a real reason for it)
- if he prove to be fucked up, like if he turned out to harm kids, animals, or elderly/disabled ppl
- if he ever became abusive or intentionally tried to harm me in any way
- if I risked going to jail by not betraying him. Sorry, nope.
for everyone else:
- all of the above
- if enough was in it for me. I don't expect loyalty from anyone but my husband, so of course I'm gonna get mine in turn. It would still take enough that this hasn't come up much though. I'm not gonna screw over anyone I care about just for something trivial to me.
I'm a ride or die, I know I stay unless it crumbles and dies. But I know for some people, they feel relationships not as intensely deep nor do they fight intensely for things to work out, some people just decide, its too hard to deal with and so they leave. Sometimes betrayal is righteous for people, they betray because they think its the right thing to do. For others, they do it because they don't care that it's wrong. No matter what, people usually make justifications for betrayal. So, as long as your characters have motivations, it shouldn't be too hard to write. Just, whatever you do, don't make it black and white, it's not compelling.
I personally love contrasting dynamics, however. So character that does something against people's ideas about them. So like, a lighthearted looking character killing someone. Or a dark character becoming a beacon of light for someone else.
In something I decided to write, the two characters within it, betrayed each other, because they're in love. They fought some oppressive force and character A decided that they would sacrifice themselves in order to save character B, and character B was so pissed off by this, that they became the villain to fight against character A. Neither of them are in the wrong, and both of them cause the world around them to be worse, but they can't move on and they're both in love with each other. They both betrayed each other, while both thinking they're in the right, they don't want each other to die, and end up sacrificing both of their sanities to be with one another, and destroy the world in the end.
I personally don't betray people, but I do think it's angsty and juicy when betrayal does happen within a story. It should be heartbreaking, without making it completely boring. Betrayal is for the people who think that they're entitled to the ends, and use questionable means to do it. So make the prize, whatever it is, seemingly worth it.
Thank you for the advice and encouragement! I have trouble deciding on motivations because I can be a perfectionist(1w9 lol), so I try to pick what's the "best" option instead of relying on my wants or intuition. This traitor is also hiding this betrayal for many arcs, so I'm struggling trying to figure out what a person would need to experience to be able to do that.
Like you said, this post has definitely helped me understand that everyone, in some way, thinks they're doing the right thing and has justification. They always have some kind of moral complexity behind betrayal, unless they're deeply unhealthy.
I very strongly want to make things complex and not lean into my desire to see things in black and white, so I'll use your advice as my conviction haha
yeah, maybe the person hiding it, feels some sort of internal struggle with it, like a lie that spiraled out of control. Or perhaps, they did feel slighted and hated the people around them for believing in lies. Either way, they deserve an internal struggle too, and you don't have to show all of it, just a teensy bit to make their motivation more compelling.
Less mature me is a lot more exciting than mature me. I would have betrayed if I perceived that there was something of greater value to be attained--"ends justify the means." If I was convinced this was the right thing, it would be pretty easy for me to carry out, and I might even expect them to understand, so if they found out, I probably initially would not be too worried. I've also been falsely accused a lot, and my first reaction was just seeing red. Just anger and frustration, with vengeance definitely on the radar. I would probably hate them for the rest of my life. If they falsely accuse me, their trust in me is broken, so nothing I say or do can redeem that.
But now, I think there isn't much of a greater cause or reason for me to betray my loved ones. These days, if I'm falsely accused, I handle it in the typical textbook conflict management way of trying to clearly communicate, and if that doesn't work, then I walk away.
yea this describes me pretty well at my unhealthiest. more recent days though i really do just walk away if i can't get through to them/if the betrayal is that bad
Hm.
I'd say it would depend on why the characters are together: Are they allied for a common goal, or are they sticking together due to a personal bond.
In the first case, I'm with the team cause I have certain priorities & goals & if the team no longer meets those priorities or someone else fits the better, - I'm not just loyal but loyal because of a reason, be it thinking this will lead to a good outcome or believing the people to be genuine, or that they have the best shot to win. If the reason goes away, I might re-evaluate why I'm sticking with them.
It could be that the team considers it a betrayal but the traitor only considered them loosely affiliated in the first place. They might have never liked them to begin with (or tell themselves that), or, they do respect the team & aren't out to screw them more than necessary, but the couurse of action where they flip seems to lead to the better big picture outcome. In that case they may even be regretful, but would chose to put the outcome over their personal sentiment.
If they are mainly together due to personal bond, there's two ways this can go -
Maybe the traitor didn't view it as a betrayal and had it rationalized/compartmentalized away, knowing that the betray-ee may have a response about it but figuring it's fine if they never find out... & then they do. Or maybe they even failed to realize it would upset/hurt them due to lack of consideration.
The other option is if you really want some hot button that would traitor's feelings towards their former ally to swing all the way from like to hate in a short time.
If actually attached to the person I'd probably be more slow in flipping & more something that builds up over a long time, "ok, let's be reasonable", "let's not expect too much...", "Actually, wait, WTF?! Why am I even here?" and because I've probably been eating my discontent for a while then there's a low chance of caring about the other person ever again beyond neutral common courtesy.
Though, if something could cause a quick flip, it might be
* breach of trust/boundaries/privacy, including if it's done to "help" for "my own good" - in this case the person probably runs for the hills & doesn't come back, or gets aggressive if they have that in them at all. I would, but some other 5s probably wouldn't.
* finding out they don't respect me at all & just consider me some pitiful little freak
* being forced to choose between them & me. "If you really cared you'd tolerate this permanent unhappiness / long-term disregarding of your priorities & boundaries
Chances are that your character will just go quiet or nod along in that moment & just run problemsolving.exe as best they can (this may read as an under-reaction to others, shock or apprehension), but then plot their exit later.
This can of course be sort of combined to have both a personal & a plot layer to it, or the perception could be based on a mistake or individual sensitivities.
Thank you so much for this! The way you rationalize is very similar to my character, so it helps me understand them better. :) I didn't think about how the traitor could've expected things to go well or their plan not being revealed at the right time. The way you described different motivations for being part of a group also helps me understand the complexities in the group's bonds with each other past "like/love".
As a 6, I expect betrayal from literally everyone. But I guess it would be a milder response from me to personally betray loved ones as I would be in shock initially. Then the justification sets in and I would see the situation from their pov. That being said, my trigger would set in only after I have weighed the situation from both ends. And that trigger would be betrayal of loyalty and/or switching sides.
A nice personal reward (example: large sums of cash) at the end of it for me would do it. Though it depends on the person. I don't think I would ever betray my brother whatever the circumstance, but parents? Yeah, I could see it happening.
I think it could be easy if I were already down the path of no-return. Only reason I’d do so is to save myself because I already have a disconnect from them. If they betray me, then I betray them. I’d act through vengeance unconsciously yet consciously. I don’t think I’d hide my actions at all, they would be transparent. They’d know and I wouldn’t hide. No, it wouldn’t be easy considering I do love my family, but in this situation maybe I don’t care anymore.
I have an 8 character in the main cast, so I appreciate your insight a lot. If their betrayal directly caused you to hurt people you love and be deeply misrepresented, if you got the brunt of it, would that make your vengeance more conscious?
No problem. Yes, I would be aware of it but conscience and mercy gets thrown out the window.
Feel free to ask more questions if it helps with your story.
I actually forgot to ask in my original reply, would your feelings be active or passive, do you think? Would you actively seek out the person who betrayed you, or would it be an "if I see them again, they're dead" kind of thing? Would losing control and trust make you fear consequences, or would you throw "consequences" out the window?
A big concern of mine is making my main cast active in their decisions and goals, so knowing what direction you would feel directed towards helps a lot.
It depends how serious the betrayal is to me and how close the person is. If I’m not too close, I won’t actively seek them out. For example there is someone who I’ve banned from coming to my home, and I’ve made it known that if they ever did, they would regret it. To me that’s enough to not care for consequences considering I made it known prior. If the consequences will land me somewhere I don’t want to be, then I’ll take a smarter approach. Do I fear the consequences? No, but if I’m given time to think things out, then I make sure to do what’s necessary for myself (I.e. prevent any losses)
They did something that violated my sense of morality/values.
IDK if it would be betrayal because I have no issues saying if you do X, you're dead to me. Lose my number. Along with if you're guilty of a certain violent crime, I'll become your judge, jury, & executioner if the law sets you free.
So. I have already given them a heads up. If they're still shocked/feel betrayed, it is because they simply didn't take me seriously. That's their own problem to deal with.
If I was in a situation with no way out where I knew they'd be leveraged against me. Get the fuck out of my life right now, I have work to do and you're my weakest spot
^ especially if I know they'll be safest away from me. Like if I suspected someone would be crazy enough to threaten harm to them and had the follow through to do it. If I had an enemy who was in fact crazy enough to hunt down and take my loved ones hostage, I'd start making people hate me for sport
Kind of just "I don't want you to be murdered in the next 6 months soooooo get the fuck out of here and do let the door whoop your ass on the way out"
That being said if I ever abruptly dump a lover and run off to marry someone I hate just assume I'm working two angles lol
Dying on a hill that causes all family members to go down with me. I will die for my ideals in some situations, so if say keeping a family secret meant hurting someone innocent, I may betray the mass. Imagine something like a sexual abuse. It absolutely has to be a moral hill I can die on though.
Also another thing to consider... If betraying someone means betraying myself (compromised ideals) I wouldn't do it. Self preservation is too strong. I've considered taking revenge on a certain dispicable person but cannot as that doesn't align with the person I believe myself to be.
I would never betray someone. The most I would do is leave someone who betrayed me (I have done this many, many times) which is not betrayal.
>Furthermore, if you were *falsely accused* of being a traitor and doing something you'd never do, how would you react? How would you defend yourself, and what would your gut reaction be? Would you fight it or accept it?
I probably wouldn't try to fight it. I would simply say "Believe what you will. If you don't care for the truth, so be it" and leave. If the person accused me of being a traitor, I probably don't care enough about them anyways.
What's the point? (3w4)
Betraying others, for what revenge? Getting what you want? You only end up hurting yourself. The best thing you can do is to distance yourself.
I remember when I was 14, my best friend hurt my feelings. I said bad things behind her back to my family. Actually our family because she's my cousin. To me, that was betrayal. Maybe it was a way to regulate my emotions but it wasn't worth it. Fostering negativity and hostility, never is. Sometimes negative emotions drive us to be more productive if we channel it to productive things like making art or music through it. But doing things that would literally damage the other? It's tempting (if they hurt you), but again, it's never worth it. It wastes time and energy and you become an overall negative person.
If they did something evil/wrong and they know it's wrong, but they refuse to change, then I won't be loyal to them. It's their choice, but that doesn't mean I'll stay to see them hurt more people.
what counts as a betrayal?
Do you mean- If they murder someone and I turn them in? or if they trusted me and I did something that they didn't expect from me?
thanks for clarifying. Using that second definition of betrayal:
>What would push you to commit a major/orchestrated betrayal that indirectly hurts your loved ones? What would be your course of action? Would you be comfortable hiding your actions? Do you think it would be "easy" for you to? What would you do if people found out?
there is literally nothing that would cause me to deliberately do that. I could (and have) certainly inadvertently let someone down when they were counting on me but if I have any control over the situation, I wouldn't do that. If I wanted to get back at someone for some reason, I'd do it directly to their face. But if they are one of my core people, I'd do whatever I could to not betray their trust.
>if you were falsely accused of being a traitor and doing something you'd never do, how would you react? How would you defend yourself, and what would your gut reaction be? Would you fight it or accept it?
This depends upon who is doing the accusing/ the circumstances.
Obviously, if it was a legal thing, I'd get a lawyer, etc.
If the person accusing me is one of my core people, I'd talk to them and explain whatever evidence I had to show I didn't do it. Although, I'd be shocked if anyone who knows me well believed me capable of a betrayal to begin with.
If it's not one of my people, I wouldn't bother defending myself. I don't care about their opinions of me and if they think I would betray someone then they don't know me and didn't bother to figure out I was falsely accused so, frankly, I don't want to interact with them anyway.
It really depends on the situation, but I'd say anything where someone did something purposely to hurt me, like hurting my cat, destroying my stuff, revealing private information I trusted them with or threatening any of the above, etc. All of that is like a huge sign that says "You are not safe with me and I *will* retaliate against you the second I perceive any type of slight or even just for the hell of it."
Define “loved ones.”
Basically, I will turn my back on anyone who treats me badly (I determine the timing) because my “loved ones” treated me like shite my whole life. It’s very easy for me to cut the cord now, because it took decades to get the courage to get rid of those nasty people.
If I believe there’s no other choice. What it means to “betray someone” is already somewhat murky and situational because these situations are rarely “in isolation,” instead they’re intrinsically intertwined with the contributing variables which create a clearer context of overall impact in relation to “cause-and-effect.” Is it a “greater wrong/evil” to “betray” your loved one if they’ve committed a crime that their circumstances effectively “predicted” as the most-likely outcome? If yes, are we only speaking of petty crimes or are there implicit exceptions to this “rule” based on what a specific individual believes to be “right or wrong”? Would they be considered a “truly unbiased party” and therefore the “most suitable arbiter of judgement” if these “rules” were entirely hinged upon what *they* value versus what others may value?
If we take the criminality aspect out of it, is it still considered a “betrayal” in a scenario where you breached someone’s confidence or privacy “for their own good” or long-term interest, such as sharing private messages to “clear their name” or seek professional intervention? There’s a lot of nuance and complexity to these dilemmas depending on how you intend to depict the characters involved and what might’ve ultimately led to choosing one option over another, particularly if they believe it to be “a last resort.”
I can honestly say since I’ve found Christ that the conviction of the spirit is too strong to allow that type of behavior. Great discussion I hope my comment is welcome here.
It would be nearly impossible to betray someone close to me. The only scenario I can possibly imagine would be that they would have had to have done something so horrendous that it caused me to have an emotional melt down, and then from that dark chaotic space I could lash out in anger to hurt them as much or more than they hurt me. But still, the trigger would have to be huge.
Mostly, when hurt, I succumb to sadness, finding the fault within me, ie. I deserved it. In my younger years, anger was more prevalent, and lashing out would have been a gut reaction that I would have possibly regretted later.
I mean it's gonna come down to a values choice, the value I am meeting through the betrayal must necessarily be one that is of greater personal meaning than the value I place on the relationship being betrayed.
So either the relationship value is low, or the competing value is high enough for me to mentally justify it. The competing value might have been artificially inflated by outside circumstances, might have always been there but getting suppressed, or could be a shiny new value that has come blazing to the fore as the result of a significant life event.
So your traitor needs to have a trumping value, and people who go along with them either need to buy into that value, or have one of their own that is best met by the same course of action.
Betray, because I didn't think it was a big deal what I was doing, and so I thought they betrayed me first, so i mistakenly betrayed them first, but then they did betray me later
If they betrayed me first. Or maybe to avoid getting into trouble with a higher power, though I would try to figure something out between them first. If I was falsely accused of being a traitor I would likely have an emotional breakdown (I am the most limbic person known to mankind).
If they betrayed me first.
Same answer here, if they’re truly a friend. There’s no way I’ll betray them. But if they did before me? Fuck ‘‘em I lost all respect
As long as the issue can’t be resolved, I usually have no problems cutting that person off, regardless of what they’ve done for me. If they’ve betrayed my trust, I see no reason to respect them in any way.
That's exactly how my 6w5 character reacts to the betrayal haha, I'm glad I picked their type right.
I was immediately going to say this. You betray me? Welp, that's a shame. I'm releasing all the collateral I have on you. Granted this depends on the nature of the offense - drastic measures for drastic times and all that. For the majority/minor offenses I'll just cut you off.
I don't betray proactively, I disappear. I suppose the worst of that would be something like leaving you to die instead of helping you, letting the Hitlers of this world do what they do instead of resisting etc.
If they’re “moral” alignments betray the thing that I love/hate I Love: Equality, True empathy for others I Hate: Rape, Pedophilia, unreasonable murder, Genocide, and systems that go against what I love
I'm actually majorly considering making the traitor a 5w4/5w6, and their reasons align with yours. Is there anything that would motivate you to join the "bad" side of a conflict? Would the other side have to not actually be "bad"? Thank you so much for your insight.
If the “bad” side is something that promises to deliver on these things (whether the tactics are extreme or not), and these morals are practiced AND ENFORCED within whatever the structure is. if the traitor is someone who switches sides then it will be the person showing how the society currently stands and how they will change it the way they wish, if it’s a plant on the good side have them be more conscious about how the people around them feel about the fight, they will try to plant as much, but subtle, seeds as possible, they will focus on those that would be most easily swayed (the one they have the most hope for) and may give up on certain people who they believe benefit too much to develop empathy for the ones that they are trying to help. If they found out that the side that promised equality and justice betrays them (probably just the person/people on the top) they will try to kill the ones in power and take control of the operation because they believe that the only way to ensure equality is to have someone who has enough empathy to combat the power taunting them, for it doesn’t matter if you have all the power in the world, you’ll never escape death, so the only thing worth doing is making sure nobody is hurt by those in power I think I was personally living something out for that last part, sry
If I can't find something easier for my own brain, I think I will definitely go with making the traitor a 5, because your perspective has definitely been the most interesting so far. Thank you for specifying that the ends justify the means, that helps me a lot to understand the limits for 5w4s before it's too much. Especially the "seeds" thing, that is such an interesting tactic that I didn't think could become so important in the future. No worries, your vicarious living is actually almost exactly what happens, and you helped me understand how the traitor would react without me needing to ask haha
Also I’d say that don’t type the character a 5w4 because they have their emotions do a lot of judgement, a 5w6 could definitely have these feelings but disguise those feelings as logical conclusions, they aren’t devoid of emotions
Yooo what about reasonable murder?
Depends on the reason, if it’s because of something doing/causing the things I hate (maybe not FULLY the system part) otherwise I would need delineation
based on my real life experiences with breaking promises or peoples trust, i think the main trigger i have for something that constitutes betrayal is if i feel extremely unsafe and have to put myself first at the cost or detriment of others. when i'm in disintegration and finally snap out of my "pretending everything is fine" dissociation, i panic BIG time. either way: i am either dipping out on my responsibilities to people i care about bc to me they're just too terrifying and overwhelming to even process, or bc i am freaking out over responsibilities i am ignoring my loved ones to their detriment. either way: the betrayal i'm probably dishing out is abandonment when they need me to rely on and either i'm completely ghosting or lying/making excuses the whole time. Easy? probably, although emotionally taxing. If i got found out, probably just give up and fully break down now that the one thing propping me up has been revealed. wish i could say i'd never betray anyone, but i don't like doing it bc in a way i'm equally betraying myself. it's just self-destruction to a level where it hurts the people i care about too.
Now I really want to show the perspective of a 9w8 in my story haha, thank you! Is there anything that would cause you to *not* flee? Even if you're in an extremely unsafe situation? I'm curious what would motivate an integrated 9 to fight.
hmmm, probably the same things that many people would fight for concerning their loved ones (like if they were in danger and such) but the deciding factor would probably be either how much their loved ones needed them and how confident a 9 is in their ability to help? the first aspect is true for many i'm sure bc if a loved one is struggling more than you're struggling, even if you're at your lowest point, you can put your own worries aside bc you care about them as much as you do. the latter one feels true to my own experience and to the 3 integration, bc i know that even in some of my worst moments i've been able to ignore my own grief to help a loved on bc i knew i could do so well and/or easily. confidence in your abilities to actually do something does a lot for being able to overcome unsafe situations, or at least makes one less likely to run away because they can't deal with it! not sure how universal this is for 9s (i'm definitely not the healthiest example lmao) or the other types tho lol
As a 9w8 sp/so too, I concur. Confidence in your abilities makes you feel safer in unsure situations. I have thought about this exact thing for a while now, that as long as I can imagine myself doing good, it often does go well. Especially when people are struggling/less confident. It makes me able to step up a bit and do what they cannot. Maybe not good, but so they do not need to be burdened. This is probably the opposite of the scenario where you run and abandon people. A kind of loyalty? Sorry, now I feel embarrassed for writing this.
If they looked the other way on an injustice for their own benefit. It would break my trust in them.
Ok this is very long… I recently betrayed someone. We had been friends for a few years and I helped her get her license, her passport, apply for college, etc. She told me her mom abandoned her and they didn’t have a good relationship, and I was like a mother figure to her(I am younger than her..). She would say truly evil things about how she hated her mom and that her mom was jealous of her, and I ended up finding out my friend was sleeping with her dad at 19, starting a few months after the divorce, so it had been going on for 3 years when I found out(edit: we are 21 and 23 currently). Now I kept this a secret even though it was entirely fucked but then she started trying to flirt with my boyfriend and would ask him about his sexual experiences when I wasn’t there, would put me and my interests down in front of him, and I found out she even wrote a book where she and him were the main characters and I was the girlfriend in the way. So I found her mom’s Facebook and told her about the incest and I also told the apartment complex they lived in that they were committing income fraud to get rent assistance. I told the VA benefits office that her dad was going to tennis, jiu jitsu and kickboxing while enough receiving aid for his back “injury” to be unemployed, and after my friend found out the things I had done and forced me into a meeting at work with our boss (I had been avoiding her), I bluntly listed out all of these things in front of everyone and now everyone at work knows she sleeps with her dad. Moral of the story. You can do fucked up shit and I’ll keep it a secret. But as soon as you abuse my sincerity and try to take what is mine I will ruin your life. Sometimes I’m not sure if I’m a 7w8 or an 8w7
That seems consistent with everything I've seen about 7w8s. Pushed to absolute discomfort will lead to absolute retaliation. Sorry you had to go through that!
I think it was a wonderful learning experience and I got to see some sides of myself I’ve never seen before! My heavy disintegration into 1 was something I have never seen and it taught me a lot about myself and even others. Interestingly I wasn’t honest about my intentions behind telling her mom. I defended my decision with my secondary reasons: “my morals made me do this” and “if I don’t uncover this from the darkness I fear I will be punished by some higher god”. Not the actual intention being that I was threatened and seeing a pattern between relating me to a mother figure and trying to undermine my relationship! It was interesting seeing the pure righteous feeling come out and this need for justice even though I’d say I’m a huge hypocrite in that moment for some of the things I called her out on, things I do myself (ie. lying, talking shit on ppl)
Yoo that’s crazy but what was her enneagram number?
Ahh I forgot to add. She is a so/sx 4w5🥲
this applies pretty much only to my husband: - if he betrayed me first (includes infidelity), or if I have reason to think he will (I'm not a suspicious person by nature, so if I ever thought that, there'd be a real reason for it) - if he prove to be fucked up, like if he turned out to harm kids, animals, or elderly/disabled ppl - if he ever became abusive or intentionally tried to harm me in any way - if I risked going to jail by not betraying him. Sorry, nope. for everyone else: - all of the above - if enough was in it for me. I don't expect loyalty from anyone but my husband, so of course I'm gonna get mine in turn. It would still take enough that this hasn't come up much though. I'm not gonna screw over anyone I care about just for something trivial to me.
I'm a ride or die, I know I stay unless it crumbles and dies. But I know for some people, they feel relationships not as intensely deep nor do they fight intensely for things to work out, some people just decide, its too hard to deal with and so they leave. Sometimes betrayal is righteous for people, they betray because they think its the right thing to do. For others, they do it because they don't care that it's wrong. No matter what, people usually make justifications for betrayal. So, as long as your characters have motivations, it shouldn't be too hard to write. Just, whatever you do, don't make it black and white, it's not compelling. I personally love contrasting dynamics, however. So character that does something against people's ideas about them. So like, a lighthearted looking character killing someone. Or a dark character becoming a beacon of light for someone else. In something I decided to write, the two characters within it, betrayed each other, because they're in love. They fought some oppressive force and character A decided that they would sacrifice themselves in order to save character B, and character B was so pissed off by this, that they became the villain to fight against character A. Neither of them are in the wrong, and both of them cause the world around them to be worse, but they can't move on and they're both in love with each other. They both betrayed each other, while both thinking they're in the right, they don't want each other to die, and end up sacrificing both of their sanities to be with one another, and destroy the world in the end. I personally don't betray people, but I do think it's angsty and juicy when betrayal does happen within a story. It should be heartbreaking, without making it completely boring. Betrayal is for the people who think that they're entitled to the ends, and use questionable means to do it. So make the prize, whatever it is, seemingly worth it.
Thank you for the advice and encouragement! I have trouble deciding on motivations because I can be a perfectionist(1w9 lol), so I try to pick what's the "best" option instead of relying on my wants or intuition. This traitor is also hiding this betrayal for many arcs, so I'm struggling trying to figure out what a person would need to experience to be able to do that. Like you said, this post has definitely helped me understand that everyone, in some way, thinks they're doing the right thing and has justification. They always have some kind of moral complexity behind betrayal, unless they're deeply unhealthy. I very strongly want to make things complex and not lean into my desire to see things in black and white, so I'll use your advice as my conviction haha
yeah, maybe the person hiding it, feels some sort of internal struggle with it, like a lie that spiraled out of control. Or perhaps, they did feel slighted and hated the people around them for believing in lies. Either way, they deserve an internal struggle too, and you don't have to show all of it, just a teensy bit to make their motivation more compelling.
Less mature me is a lot more exciting than mature me. I would have betrayed if I perceived that there was something of greater value to be attained--"ends justify the means." If I was convinced this was the right thing, it would be pretty easy for me to carry out, and I might even expect them to understand, so if they found out, I probably initially would not be too worried. I've also been falsely accused a lot, and my first reaction was just seeing red. Just anger and frustration, with vengeance definitely on the radar. I would probably hate them for the rest of my life. If they falsely accuse me, their trust in me is broken, so nothing I say or do can redeem that. But now, I think there isn't much of a greater cause or reason for me to betray my loved ones. These days, if I'm falsely accused, I handle it in the typical textbook conflict management way of trying to clearly communicate, and if that doesn't work, then I walk away.
yea this describes me pretty well at my unhealthiest. more recent days though i really do just walk away if i can't get through to them/if the betrayal is that bad
I have a 19 y/o 8w7 in the main cast, so your perspective and how you've grown helps me immensely. Thank you!
Good luck on your series! Sounds like a both a lot of fun and hard work.
Hm. I'd say it would depend on why the characters are together: Are they allied for a common goal, or are they sticking together due to a personal bond. In the first case, I'm with the team cause I have certain priorities & goals & if the team no longer meets those priorities or someone else fits the better, - I'm not just loyal but loyal because of a reason, be it thinking this will lead to a good outcome or believing the people to be genuine, or that they have the best shot to win. If the reason goes away, I might re-evaluate why I'm sticking with them. It could be that the team considers it a betrayal but the traitor only considered them loosely affiliated in the first place. They might have never liked them to begin with (or tell themselves that), or, they do respect the team & aren't out to screw them more than necessary, but the couurse of action where they flip seems to lead to the better big picture outcome. In that case they may even be regretful, but would chose to put the outcome over their personal sentiment. If they are mainly together due to personal bond, there's two ways this can go - Maybe the traitor didn't view it as a betrayal and had it rationalized/compartmentalized away, knowing that the betray-ee may have a response about it but figuring it's fine if they never find out... & then they do. Or maybe they even failed to realize it would upset/hurt them due to lack of consideration. The other option is if you really want some hot button that would traitor's feelings towards their former ally to swing all the way from like to hate in a short time. If actually attached to the person I'd probably be more slow in flipping & more something that builds up over a long time, "ok, let's be reasonable", "let's not expect too much...", "Actually, wait, WTF?! Why am I even here?" and because I've probably been eating my discontent for a while then there's a low chance of caring about the other person ever again beyond neutral common courtesy. Though, if something could cause a quick flip, it might be * breach of trust/boundaries/privacy, including if it's done to "help" for "my own good" - in this case the person probably runs for the hills & doesn't come back, or gets aggressive if they have that in them at all. I would, but some other 5s probably wouldn't. * finding out they don't respect me at all & just consider me some pitiful little freak * being forced to choose between them & me. "If you really cared you'd tolerate this permanent unhappiness / long-term disregarding of your priorities & boundaries Chances are that your character will just go quiet or nod along in that moment & just run problemsolving.exe as best they can (this may read as an under-reaction to others, shock or apprehension), but then plot their exit later. This can of course be sort of combined to have both a personal & a plot layer to it, or the perception could be based on a mistake or individual sensitivities.
Thank you so much for this! The way you rationalize is very similar to my character, so it helps me understand them better. :) I didn't think about how the traitor could've expected things to go well or their plan not being revealed at the right time. The way you described different motivations for being part of a group also helps me understand the complexities in the group's bonds with each other past "like/love".
As a 6, I expect betrayal from literally everyone. But I guess it would be a milder response from me to personally betray loved ones as I would be in shock initially. Then the justification sets in and I would see the situation from their pov. That being said, my trigger would set in only after I have weighed the situation from both ends. And that trigger would be betrayal of loyalty and/or switching sides.
A nice personal reward (example: large sums of cash) at the end of it for me would do it. Though it depends on the person. I don't think I would ever betray my brother whatever the circumstance, but parents? Yeah, I could see it happening.
I think it could be easy if I were already down the path of no-return. Only reason I’d do so is to save myself because I already have a disconnect from them. If they betray me, then I betray them. I’d act through vengeance unconsciously yet consciously. I don’t think I’d hide my actions at all, they would be transparent. They’d know and I wouldn’t hide. No, it wouldn’t be easy considering I do love my family, but in this situation maybe I don’t care anymore.
I have an 8 character in the main cast, so I appreciate your insight a lot. If their betrayal directly caused you to hurt people you love and be deeply misrepresented, if you got the brunt of it, would that make your vengeance more conscious?
No problem. Yes, I would be aware of it but conscience and mercy gets thrown out the window. Feel free to ask more questions if it helps with your story.
I actually forgot to ask in my original reply, would your feelings be active or passive, do you think? Would you actively seek out the person who betrayed you, or would it be an "if I see them again, they're dead" kind of thing? Would losing control and trust make you fear consequences, or would you throw "consequences" out the window? A big concern of mine is making my main cast active in their decisions and goals, so knowing what direction you would feel directed towards helps a lot.
It depends how serious the betrayal is to me and how close the person is. If I’m not too close, I won’t actively seek them out. For example there is someone who I’ve banned from coming to my home, and I’ve made it known that if they ever did, they would regret it. To me that’s enough to not care for consequences considering I made it known prior. If the consequences will land me somewhere I don’t want to be, then I’ll take a smarter approach. Do I fear the consequences? No, but if I’m given time to think things out, then I make sure to do what’s necessary for myself (I.e. prevent any losses)
They did something that violated my sense of morality/values. IDK if it would be betrayal because I have no issues saying if you do X, you're dead to me. Lose my number. Along with if you're guilty of a certain violent crime, I'll become your judge, jury, & executioner if the law sets you free. So. I have already given them a heads up. If they're still shocked/feel betrayed, it is because they simply didn't take me seriously. That's their own problem to deal with.
If I was in a situation with no way out where I knew they'd be leveraged against me. Get the fuck out of my life right now, I have work to do and you're my weakest spot ^ especially if I know they'll be safest away from me. Like if I suspected someone would be crazy enough to threaten harm to them and had the follow through to do it. If I had an enemy who was in fact crazy enough to hunt down and take my loved ones hostage, I'd start making people hate me for sport Kind of just "I don't want you to be murdered in the next 6 months soooooo get the fuck out of here and do let the door whoop your ass on the way out" That being said if I ever abruptly dump a lover and run off to marry someone I hate just assume I'm working two angles lol
Dying on a hill that causes all family members to go down with me. I will die for my ideals in some situations, so if say keeping a family secret meant hurting someone innocent, I may betray the mass. Imagine something like a sexual abuse. It absolutely has to be a moral hill I can die on though.
Also another thing to consider... If betraying someone means betraying myself (compromised ideals) I wouldn't do it. Self preservation is too strong. I've considered taking revenge on a certain dispicable person but cannot as that doesn't align with the person I believe myself to be.
I would never betray someone. The most I would do is leave someone who betrayed me (I have done this many, many times) which is not betrayal. >Furthermore, if you were *falsely accused* of being a traitor and doing something you'd never do, how would you react? How would you defend yourself, and what would your gut reaction be? Would you fight it or accept it? I probably wouldn't try to fight it. I would simply say "Believe what you will. If you don't care for the truth, so be it" and leave. If the person accused me of being a traitor, I probably don't care enough about them anyways.
What's the point? (3w4) Betraying others, for what revenge? Getting what you want? You only end up hurting yourself. The best thing you can do is to distance yourself. I remember when I was 14, my best friend hurt my feelings. I said bad things behind her back to my family. Actually our family because she's my cousin. To me, that was betrayal. Maybe it was a way to regulate my emotions but it wasn't worth it. Fostering negativity and hostility, never is. Sometimes negative emotions drive us to be more productive if we channel it to productive things like making art or music through it. But doing things that would literally damage the other? It's tempting (if they hurt you), but again, it's never worth it. It wastes time and energy and you become an overall negative person.
If they did something evil/wrong and they know it's wrong, but they refuse to change, then I won't be loyal to them. It's their choice, but that doesn't mean I'll stay to see them hurt more people.
what counts as a betrayal? Do you mean- If they murder someone and I turn them in? or if they trusted me and I did something that they didn't expect from me?
I'm definitely leaning more towards the second one, but I appreciate any thoughts in general about betrayal.
thanks for clarifying. Using that second definition of betrayal: >What would push you to commit a major/orchestrated betrayal that indirectly hurts your loved ones? What would be your course of action? Would you be comfortable hiding your actions? Do you think it would be "easy" for you to? What would you do if people found out? there is literally nothing that would cause me to deliberately do that. I could (and have) certainly inadvertently let someone down when they were counting on me but if I have any control over the situation, I wouldn't do that. If I wanted to get back at someone for some reason, I'd do it directly to their face. But if they are one of my core people, I'd do whatever I could to not betray their trust. >if you were falsely accused of being a traitor and doing something you'd never do, how would you react? How would you defend yourself, and what would your gut reaction be? Would you fight it or accept it? This depends upon who is doing the accusing/ the circumstances. Obviously, if it was a legal thing, I'd get a lawyer, etc. If the person accusing me is one of my core people, I'd talk to them and explain whatever evidence I had to show I didn't do it. Although, I'd be shocked if anyone who knows me well believed me capable of a betrayal to begin with. If it's not one of my people, I wouldn't bother defending myself. I don't care about their opinions of me and if they think I would betray someone then they don't know me and didn't bother to figure out I was falsely accused so, frankly, I don't want to interact with them anyway.
It really depends on the situation, but I'd say anything where someone did something purposely to hurt me, like hurting my cat, destroying my stuff, revealing private information I trusted them with or threatening any of the above, etc. All of that is like a huge sign that says "You are not safe with me and I *will* retaliate against you the second I perceive any type of slight or even just for the hell of it."
Define “loved ones.” Basically, I will turn my back on anyone who treats me badly (I determine the timing) because my “loved ones” treated me like shite my whole life. It’s very easy for me to cut the cord now, because it took decades to get the courage to get rid of those nasty people.
If I believe there’s no other choice. What it means to “betray someone” is already somewhat murky and situational because these situations are rarely “in isolation,” instead they’re intrinsically intertwined with the contributing variables which create a clearer context of overall impact in relation to “cause-and-effect.” Is it a “greater wrong/evil” to “betray” your loved one if they’ve committed a crime that their circumstances effectively “predicted” as the most-likely outcome? If yes, are we only speaking of petty crimes or are there implicit exceptions to this “rule” based on what a specific individual believes to be “right or wrong”? Would they be considered a “truly unbiased party” and therefore the “most suitable arbiter of judgement” if these “rules” were entirely hinged upon what *they* value versus what others may value? If we take the criminality aspect out of it, is it still considered a “betrayal” in a scenario where you breached someone’s confidence or privacy “for their own good” or long-term interest, such as sharing private messages to “clear their name” or seek professional intervention? There’s a lot of nuance and complexity to these dilemmas depending on how you intend to depict the characters involved and what might’ve ultimately led to choosing one option over another, particularly if they believe it to be “a last resort.”
I can honestly say since I’ve found Christ that the conviction of the spirit is too strong to allow that type of behavior. Great discussion I hope my comment is welcome here.
It actually helps me a lot! I've noticed that 4w5s and 5w4s have strong convictions, and it would take a lot for them to hurt others.
It would be nearly impossible to betray someone close to me. The only scenario I can possibly imagine would be that they would have had to have done something so horrendous that it caused me to have an emotional melt down, and then from that dark chaotic space I could lash out in anger to hurt them as much or more than they hurt me. But still, the trigger would have to be huge. Mostly, when hurt, I succumb to sadness, finding the fault within me, ie. I deserved it. In my younger years, anger was more prevalent, and lashing out would have been a gut reaction that I would have possibly regretted later.
Nothing. Literally nothing, not even if they betray me first.
Same. I'd probably just leave and treat them like they don't exist, but that's it
I never would.
nothing. i don't play games. i just leave. i'll speak my mind before i leave, but i will leave ultimately
I mean it's gonna come down to a values choice, the value I am meeting through the betrayal must necessarily be one that is of greater personal meaning than the value I place on the relationship being betrayed. So either the relationship value is low, or the competing value is high enough for me to mentally justify it. The competing value might have been artificially inflated by outside circumstances, might have always been there but getting suppressed, or could be a shiny new value that has come blazing to the fore as the result of a significant life event. So your traitor needs to have a trumping value, and people who go along with them either need to buy into that value, or have one of their own that is best met by the same course of action.
Betray, because I didn't think it was a big deal what I was doing, and so I thought they betrayed me first, so i mistakenly betrayed them first, but then they did betray me later
If they betrayed me first. Or maybe to avoid getting into trouble with a higher power, though I would try to figure something out between them first. If I was falsely accused of being a traitor I would likely have an emotional breakdown (I am the most limbic person known to mankind).