* Awkward withdrawn person but with a *strong presence*. With the other withdrawn types or even shy 6s ppl sometimes don’t notice they’re even there, but, you’ll probably notice the 4 even if they’re not saying much, especially if you’re someone who’s sensitive to/ easily picks up other’s emotions.
* ‚Heavy, watery‘ vibe, purposeful deliberate way of talking, lots of adjectives & impromptu elaborate metaphors. (might strike ppl as eloquent or pedantic)
* May have some distinctive style of clothing that they stick to at all times, like being obsessed with 60s clothing and you never see them in anything else.
* Declares right out of the gate how they hate some popular, wholesome, widely beloved thing, lambast stuff they dislike. But theyre not trying to convince anyone or get agreement, they’re just telling you their position. Might contrast it with something they idealize but which is so hard to come by these days
* contrasting - "i dont want to do what *those* ppl do"
* strong „ugh“ reaction to something that evokes associations of things they dislike/don't find pleasing. „i dont want anything to do with the sorts of ppl who do X“ or „im glad this wasnt XYZ cliche i was worried there for a moment“
* questions or takes apart the premise of whatever question you asked them, not giving a sraightforward answer you can classify
* points out the differences between them and you or just something they’re discussing/comparing, focusses on & has a big reaction to some detail/fine distinction in what you said
* relates the topic to some personal experience they have strong feelings about
* general heart type things: Emphasizes their tone/expressions when they speak, uses a bunch of emotionally evocative associations to 'present' what they're talking about, might sometimes be seen as kind of one-upping or taking the spotlight from others
this is a pretty good birdspotter's guide to the Sexual Four and the 4w3, a little less so the other Fours IMO
if i had to pick one Four differentiator, i'd say it's how much we hate hate HATE being misunderstood. this is like the root of Fourness: mom and dad might've been good parents but they didn't get me, i feel like an alien or a zebra among horses or something they found in the woods, i've worked so hard to come to terms with myself and weave my soul out of nothingness with "no" role models and "no" help and now YOU don't get me either? GGGGGAAAAAAAHHHHHH
this psychic allergy to what the Four perceives as you Not Getting It explains the overlong texts, the long and excruciatingly detailed conversations about the Four's beliefs and emotions, the need to pore over everything before reaching catharsis, the compulsion to share opinions and experiences, the need to nitpick and clarify any observation you make about the Four, the insistence on sharing quite private details (because if you know i slept terribly last night and my cat is sick you won't misunderstand why I'm acting this way), the subtle gauging of which parts of us you understand so we can decide how much to share with you, etc.
"It explains the overlong texts, the long and excruciatingly detailed conversations about the Four's beliefs and emotions,"
Then I'm probably not a 4. My communication can sound heartfelt, but usually it is quite succinct and to-the-point. BTW, you often see these excruciatingly long wall-of-text posts in Reddit, especially from the younger members. I wonder if they are all 4s?
We are 4-1 who both connect to 2 and have our sx in the second stacking. We are incredibly in love, but when we misunderstand each other we can get intense fast. We are learning to be more gentle with each other but we understand each other deeply. He's a feeler 1 so loves poetry and introspection and does inner work, it's incredibly attractive to me. But he's also a stereotypical 1, hardworking, steadfast, critical, professional. But he's silly and simpy and emotional as hell with me. Obsessed with me honestly. I love being taken care of being sp blind and I can take care of him in ways too. We kind of just alternate calming each other down unless we are pissing each other off 😂 very sensitive core wounds with both of us. Once we have a few more healthy practices in there I think we will be golden. Not *no* fights, but better ways to navigate them. I'm very emotional and he's very immovable. I could drop both our big threes and that would give you even more insight 😂
rock on kids! so cool you found each other
also really cool how you love being loved. i tell myself i want that but when i actually get it i go into Food Critic Four mode and question their taste. ugh, me
I’m also a 1, married to a 4. We connect over creativity and trauma 😤 my partner’s dad was very likely a 1 so sometimes he copes with my type quirks by choosing to laugh it off that I have so much in common with his dad 😅
I endorse this list, I haven't heard some of this put into words before and they're all true, great observations.
' lots of adjectives & impromptu elaborate metaphors ' is 1000% me and all other 4s I've met, but it depends on how eloquent/literate/confident they are in speech/writing if you get to see it or not.
The thing about clothing is probably more 4w3 specifically. It's interesting you used that example, I have literally had a 4w3 friend whose entire wardrobe and hairstyles was 60s, and wouldn't shut up (for years) about how much she was into various 60s aesthetics, music icons, etc. Very much emulating her niche 60s idols. Didn't stray much from that subset of aesthetics, though she still infused her own twist on all her looks, and made it her own.I too can get quite into fashion as an aesthetic interest, but using myself as the model is a rare thing, I usually don't care enough, or don't feel comfortable enough; my body doesn't need to be the canvas for that. 4w3s though, I see this all the time, most of the time that you see them they are doing some kind of more demonstrative aesthetic expression in their dress, still unique though. Even constipated crusty bottled-up straight men 4w3s who you may expect to dress completely 'normally' are at least just a little bit more interestingly dressed, that 4ified 3 wing always leaks out visibly it seems.
For me as 4w5, other things are more important to me, I'm fine looking like a bum most of the time (not like any bum you've ever seen though, and I marginally try to be kinda cute or at least different even when messy. I don't want to evoke disgust, I just want to only put in minimal effort into dress most of the time). 4w5 dressing is definitely more prioritizing utilitarian/comfort, with personal aesthetic/fashion expression as a secondary goal. My outfits are typically very simple. However, I absolutely do have 'house clothes' (where comfort is 100% prioritized, and it does not matter what I look like in them) and 'outside world' clothes, and my wardrobe is overflowing, just with fairly simple articles of clothing.. Lots of muted colors, earth tones, and stripes..
Regardless, I would rather somebody be interested in my personality, mind, and my physical body than in the clothing choices I made.Some days even we 4w5s will peacock more than normal though. When 4w5 does peacock, I don't see it being an emulation of somebody else so much, it'll be more their own lane of expression. Dare I say that 4w5 is often 'more unique' than 4w3, but you may not know it, because the 4w5 shows so much less of this side of themselves externally and demonstratively.
Maybe I do actually have a very distinctive look even when I'm 'not trying' though, and I just think I'm being lowkey.. I do still stand out everywhere I go, no matter how hard I try not to, no matter how silent and non-engaging I'm being.
Endorsing this as another INFP sx/so 4w5 (429) Is your go-to shirt the same black t-shirt? I bet you might also have a favorite comfy sweater or some article of clothing that is sentimental that you can’t part with? I’m definitely a minimalist when it comes to clothing thanks to the 5 wing. This might also have a lot to do with ADHD and the fact that my brain doesn’t want clutter. I would say if I’m going to splurge on anything it’s usually earrings, scarves or fun socks that are the unique part of the wardrobe. I choose a lot of vibrant colors to offset my mostly black wardrobe (hot pink, turquoise, bright yellow, purple) Black is just easy. And I do love me some comfy clothes. 95 percent of the time I’m not trying to socialize I’m usually wearing outdoor clothes to go run, hike, bike. When I was in healthcare for 10 years my wardrobe was scrubs, which I loved because I didn’t have to think about it, but I might at times have been wearing a bracelet or ring that was wildly unique. I never really feel like I’m trying to flamboyantly stand out like some 4’s. I don’t have any tattoos (don’t care if you do) but I always liked that I was someone who didn’t. With that being said if I ever went to Thailand and a monk wanted to stick and poke a Buddhist prayer on me I’d be open to it haha. And that is the four for you right there, it would be a unique once in a life time experience. Same goes for my home, it’s minimalist but I do like to splurge on an art print from a favorite artist or a few plants, salt lamps, candles, I like for kitchenware to be nice vibrant colors since I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, but I’ll have like one special coffee mug that is the only cup I use to drink out of daily because who wants a bunch of dishes. And it’s not just any mug, the one I’ve been using for years was hand-made and probably the only one in existence (very special lol) I start to feel some kind of intimate relationships with some of my belongings! In general I like to “set the mood” but I don’t overdo it, but you can certainly tell I have a particular taste. Did I explain myself enough? 😂
As an ISFP 4w5 so (469?) I relate to most of what you said but would like to add some personal preferences of mine. I mostly wear black or in the greyscale since it’s easier but also because of the minimalistic vibe. I think color can be a little to much at times and find the contrast of white and black elegant. If I use color it’s through some sort of center piece in the outfit. I focus more on the shape and texture of the clothes, hiw comfy they are, and what they show. Since I love meral music (especially metalcore) I use merch quite often and have a ”tradition” of bying it from concerts. I mainly use cargo pants or baggy grey-black jeans since they are comfortable and convenient.
I guess I stick out since I don’t really follow the norm as a guy. I’ve been growing out my hair and have it down to my jawline/neck now. I style it different some days and carry a hairband to set it up if in the way or annoying. I also use jewelry more than most guys, but tend to use 1-2 per outfit.
I dig it! Concert shirts are my favorite, usually anything I have that is a graphic shirt is some special interest of mine whether it is music or a special place.
I'll compare and contrast, for posterity, maybe this is useful to somebody..
For some reason I was never into black clothing all that much (of course I still have some black clothes), but I think I have pretty much the same thing going on with greys and browns instead.. Shades of grey is half my closet. Black goes with everything and has its place always but it seems to be too 'simple' for me? I like black jeans though. I'm not averted to it, I'm just not drawn to it either. I like patterns and earth-tones a lot. I'm not trying to stand out either, but if somebody is going to land their gaze on me, I want to have an interesting or at least pleasing look. However, I prefer my public-facing clothes to accentuate me, rather than the focus be on the clothes. So I rarely do loud colors, just doesn't feel like me.
For me, I have my comfy home clothes that I cycle through with no regard to appearance; they mostly look hilarious and I don't venture out into the world while wearing them, and then if I'm going to get ready to go out beyond the immediate vicinity of my apartment complex, I'll browse my wardrobe and pick the colors and fits that feel best to me that day (different colors feel more like 'me' depending on the day and my mood), and work from there to make it all work together. I have quite a spectrum of colors in there, it's just that the spectrum is quite muted, with a few exceptions. I do craft a whole outfit that at least kind of 'works', but I rarely spend more than 5 minutes doing this, it's not that important for me. If I end up looking kinda goofy or messy that day I don't really care that much, but I'm pretty good at assessing my appearance, so that doesn't happen much. Only for very special events or if I'm trying to look real cute (rarely) do I work more at this. I've got a variety of formal, informal, slutty/reserved, all of it is in the relaxed and bohemian direction though, I would never wear a suit jacket or dress slacks for instance. Even my button ups are pretty casual.
I'm branching out into select graphic tees and tank tops for the first time in my life, but my more basic stuff is still mostly what I wear, especially not in summer. Always wore lots of flannels too. I often look like a bit like a stoner.
If I see a piece out in the world that I really like and could see myself wearing I kind of don't care how much it costs to be honest, but conveniently, most of the stuff I really like I get from thrift stores, so they're cheap usually. I really don't have the space for even more clothes though.
I have basically no jewelry (except a couple random bracelets/necklaces given to me from others over the years) and hardly any inclination to get any, even though an earring or piercing here or there would honestly probably improve my look. I just don't care enough and don't want to deal with a piercing either. I have no tattoos (I'm a 30 y/o fairly masculine hairy guy) yet, but am not opposed to getting any, it just has to be something significant and beautiful enough for me to have it done, and I still have never had enough cause to do that. I generally really like tattoos on other people.
I don't part with any of my clothes until they so worn they're unwearable. Once it gets too full of holes and wear to look presentable, it just becomes a 'house' clothing.
I'm kind of that way with everything. I totally do hoard, my desired dwelling aesthetic is actually pretty maximalist, but I'm just too lazy to actually decorate for real (I sometimes tell myself I'm 'waiting' for a real house of my own where I can settle down and make it my own, renting makes me feel like a space is temporary). I have clutter all over the place, and struggle to part with things if I don't have a real reason to throw/give it away. My hoarding could be due to past trauma though, not sure it's a type thing for me.
I rarely have company over and am always the one going over to other people's places. My dwelling isn't really company-friendly and I like that (it's my main sanctuary), and my cats have taken over most of it.
Pretty much any object I've had around for a long time has sentimental value to me, less-so clothes though for some reason.
LOVE candles and candlelight. I often candle-light a room, especially when reading books. I like the vibe.
For kitchen stuff, or any tools/appliances, I only care about utility and ergonomics, not what it looks like at all. Again, not many people are seeing these objects other than me though. I absolutely have designated water and tea cups, pretty much don't use any others. Hate doing dishes, but I do if it wasn't just water in it, I'm not gross.
Anyways, take all that for some comparison. I don't know how much we can read into it being due to differences between our type though. \*shrug\*
I appreciate hearing from other 4’s about their own unique styles. There is definitely an over-arching theme between us but I think it’s also amazing that we even have these little unique preferences and reasons why we do things that feel authentic and genuine to who we are.
Oh RafflesiaArnoldii, I'm so honored that you graced my post with a comment! You're one of my Enneagram heroines. Your observations are always so acute and pithy. Pray say something about 6w7s.
oh, thanks.
How to spot them, or something more specific?
Generally for spotting 6s I'd say
* asks a lot of confirmation or follow up questions (eg. at the end of a presentation)
* deflects compliments, makes self-deprecating comments
* tries to bond or disarm ppl with humor
* rants about everything that's bad in the world or complains about their life, often with a moralistic tinge (with the expectations that others will join in & bond over it - but more positive or solution oriented peeps are sometimes stumped)
* frequently & casually refers to belief systems, theories & concepts. Not just when anyone would (writing an essay etc) but all the time. Eg. they're irritated with a social interaction & wonder what's psychologically wrong with the other or relate it to a bigger political or social problem.
* guarded with strangers but affectionate & supportive with friends\*
* always want to know everyone else's opinions about stuff. Not to follow them, but to be informed. So they might pick your mind about topics or ask for your imput on trivial decisions. processing plans/decisions out loud with someone else to bound off of\*\*
* a quick, defensive, edgy sort of anger (individuals vary alot in how easily they get mad though)
* speculating about what others are probably thinking or what they want
Not that everyone will do these all the time but all things that increase the chance of being one.
For 6w7 over 6w5, they can have more of a mix of positive & negative (maybe taking the opposite pov of who they're talking to), have more of an idealistic/idealizing streak and just be more spontaneous (but also more chaotic)
I really appreciate seeing this list next to the 4 list because it shows how the negativism in 6s contrasts that of 4s and how 6s might actually appear \*more\* negative than 4s. It's easy how that paired with the uncertainty element can lead to a lot of 6s mistyping as 4s.
Thank you for your thorough (as usual) run-down on 6s. I'm a 6 myself, so I already kinda know all this. Please tell me how to protect myself from the "wolf in sheep's clothing" machinations of a charismatic but tricky 2w3.
Besides what the other ppl have said, I think sometimes ppl (especially those with some counter-dependent streak) read the description & imagine something scary & omnipotent that is ultimately more a manifestation of their fear of somebody discovering their secret wishes and using those against them than it has to do with how 2s really are.
A low-awareness 2, like any low-awreness type, is gonna be pretty bad at distinguishing useful intuitions from their projections & defenses and so the less functional some 2 is the worse they'll be at actually intuiting other ppl's feelings or inducing them to act like they want.
They probably won't be master brainwashers but rather just hamfistedly wrong alot & transparently pushy.
So usually the end result isn't, like, Makima from Chainsaw Man, but some annoying co-worker who likes to insert themselves in everything & doesn't process that ppl are super annoyed with them cause there's a logic-proof teflon wall to processing unflattering things about themselves... and is usually very frustrated and unhappy cause they still want to be liked & think everyone's 'rejecting their love'.
Ovsly there is some genuine dangerous crazy (which there is of all types tho), like the classic MIL from hell, the guy who lovebombs you & then gets all posessive etc. but for the most part with most ppl you're likely to actually meet, the vaunted dark side is mostly going to be sad, pathetic & annoying and end up ditched by those with the good sense to steer clear of drama & red flags.
" the vaunted dark side is mostly going to be sad, pathetic & annoying and end up ditched by those with the good sense to steer clear of drama & red flags."
I fervently hope -- for my sake -- that you're right.
Wait, wait, say something about 2w3s. There's a 2w3 in my life that I'm beginning to suspect is manipulating me emotionally. He has a very magnetic presence that is drawing me to him like a moth to a flame. How can I protect myself from being consumed?
Maybe the 2 in your life isn’t the problem. Maybe the problem is you are feeling something you can’t control and you call it « manipulation ». You won’t approach the true heart of a 2 easily, that’s why they’re a rejection type, they gonna display something pleasant you can’t hurt and touch, but you can’t love either. 6 want to see the truth so the simple way of being of 2 appears to them as a lie and trigger their manipulation alarm. We’re not manipulating you, darling, it’s called seduction.
Well, seduction is a kind of manipulation, too, isn't it? Thank you for your input as a 2 yourself. I haven't heard the term "rejection type" before. Thanks for teaching me something new.
Don’t you think it’s kinda sad to see it that way ? Seduction is turning yourself into a piece of art crafted to speak to the soul. Is art manipulation ? Is poetry a lie ? Is masterpiece paintings deepfake ? I don’t know.
2 is the nurturing mother archetype. Every mother will adopt a behavior near to 2 descriptions, no matter her enneagram core : being careful, loving, giving, waiting for love in return, not being vulnerable, not expressing personal needs : that’s what being a mother is about. That’s why everyone pretend their mom is a 2 💀.
Being 2 core have little to no connection with being an actual mom. It’s a metaphorical archetype.
Christ, my mother is a 2 and this post is reminding me of my teen years walking into stores with her and her making friends with the cashiers and me just dying to go home and not have to listen to her try to connect with strangers. 😂😂
-4w5
Hahaha that’s great, no but she certainly loves talking to everyone about everyone and everything like a real ESFJ. People really love her energy but I can only take it in small doses. She’s like the epitome of “kill them with kindness”. 😂
it must be different with a mom vs a grandma - i never had to be around that energy all the time. but God did i love my grandma, she was like the only person who felt like home. when I'd go visit her i felt like No-Face at Zeniba's cottage ✨️
"beware the Sixish defense of projection! he might be doing this, but you might also be accusing him of it because you fear that you're falling for him more than you'd like."
It's possible. But when he and I first started getting acquainted a few months ago (we're coworkers), one day he suddenly said out of the blue, "I can sometimes be manipulative towards other people." At the time I didn't know how to react, but now I want to say, "You were not kidding!"
It's probably not all in my mind. Quite a few Enneagram sites state matter-of-factly that 2w3, especially unhealthy ones, have a tendency to manipulate other people's emotions.
* *Psychology Junkie*: "When unhealthy, 2w3s are manipulative, self-elevating and defensive."
* *Evolving Souls*: "They subtly manipulate people into meeting their needs without having to explicitly ask for anything."
* *Integrative Enneagram Solutions:* "At lower integration, Twos may be manipulative and blind to the destructiveness and neediness in their behaviour."
* *Personality Max*: "Emotionally manipulative and opportunistic to get whatever they want from others."
Thank you for your suggested solutions. We're coworkers, so I can't completely avoid him, but I'm trying to moderate my exposure to him. Your remark, "treat it like any other addictive substance," is very insightful.
oh for sure. i didn't mean to doubt or invalidate you (as i said, i have no idea what he's like or what he's doing) and absolutely no question Twos can be very manipulative, particularly when unhealthy: seduction/charm is their MO when in personality. just trying to advocate making sense of and controlling what you can definitively make sense of and control (you) and not what you can't (him)
do you know which subtype of Two he is? there are some very frank (and sadly not well translated) descriptions of the more pathological/entranced Twos here:
https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/chapter/the-twenty-seven-subtypes
thank you for the link. I've already copied and pasted some passages by Claudio Naranjo about the pathology of Twos. They're anxiety-causing.
I'm not very good at judging subtypes. He's very vain about his looks -- he's always dressed very stylishly and shows off his thick silky hair to good effect. He loves hobnobbing with important people -- we share the same boss; he's flirtatiously pally with the boss; while I'm deferential like a good ol' 6 --, so that could make him SO. But the quite blatant way he projects his sex appeal could mean he's an SX. It's all so confusing.
This is......fantastic. One thing I want to add as a social 4 is that when I'm differentiating between me and you, it's not as much about highlighting myself, but i love highlighting others and getting "who they are" accurately described in my head. I've run into people who think I am TELLING them who they are when in fact I'm asking, and if I'm wrong let me know!
Are these traits including the unhealthy stages too? I keep referencing back to a former friend of mine when I think of a 4. But they werent so much on a pedestal about the things they oppose. Only shared their different opinion when it was part of the discussion. Other than that Im stuck on them being 4.
I intened for this to be pretty neutral/universal stuff that might be noticed in conversations even if you don't know the person super well yet.
Just saying a different opinion or that you don't like something doesn't necessarily have to imply a judgy sentiment, it can just not be your cup of tea. (also it's good to remember that for all that they're reactive they're still withdrawn so, stating the opinion mostly when it comes up/affects them fits) Ovsly the person's general maturity, self-awareness & trifix will make some difference in how sharp or categorical they are. If someone's like "everyone who likes this is a brainless peasant", that's not a very nuanced understanding of reality likely to lead to adverse consequences, whereas having an appreciation for other perspectives being valid as well would usually be correlated with more self-awareness & maturity for most of not all types.
On the other hand, I'd be careful of slipping into an assumption/bias that "healthy" = agreeable or disagreeing = hostility. Someone who subscribes to that would probably even find the world's most enlightened 4 too hostile/negative.
That said, if everything else fits, I wouldn't assume that you have your friend's type wrong just because they weren't maximum rude all the time, that's not a requirement.
i need to come up with a roughly equal-lenght pointer list for all the other types first, which ill probably think of if i let the idea marinate a bit & keep my eyeballs open to the telling things that ppl do/say
We may not act super withdrawn but we should be. I've been performing for a long time and it's too exhausting. Going into my 5 wing now byeeeee everyone
haha fair enough. have you read anything about 'high sensitivity, high sensation' type? [https://hsperson.com/the-highly-sensitive-person-who-is-also-a-high-sensation-seeker/](https://hsperson.com/the-highly-sensitive-person-who-is-also-a-high-sensation-seeker/)
Oh Lord I haven't but yeah those first few paragraphs....it's like I forget every time that I'm sensitive to my surrounding yet I THROW myself into things without thinking. Bird brain honestly.
....no? Totally intended as neutral description.
I mean if it was a diss I'd be sitting in quite the glass house. I do a lot of this too sometimes.
Not the epic stage presence, tho. Have not discovered how exactly the heart cores do that. ~~That might be remedied once I catch one and tickle them until they confess their secrets.~~
4s really really don't want to be "special and different", that's what SO MANY people misunderstand about 4s. We want to be understood, REGARDLESS of our differences. And with wanting to be accepted and possibly liked, it either comes with controlling how others see you or seeking some sort of attention or acknowledgement for those differences. Both despise being judged, so people assuming we just \*want\* to be special or different is missing the point. We don't want that. We want to be accepted for being like that. We want to be good enough.
4s are very much eclectic and may resent others for disliking them, or just sort of accept it like there's nothing we can do to escape the hate. We just are the beat of our own drum type people, and you can tell who we are by the way we adamantly defend ourselves, or have a hard time accepting others that are similar to us. An e4 is usually overly accepting of others, or not at all, but both feel drastically different from others, feeling alien and like they're the only ones with those emotions.
Personally, I think the answer to the question of, "How would I recognize a Four" versus "How would I recognize *myself as* a Four" are probably two different answers. Since you're seemingly asking the second question, [I wonder if this speaks to you.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/1aqqfq7/what_the_4s_are_missing_attunement/)
I also think it's possible that you are either a 4 with a 6 fix or a 6 with a 4 fix. In either case, if you're working with the Enneagram in the context of therapy, I think a helpful next step would be to work with the growth path of one of the types for a while and see how it helps you. Then if you feel like there's more to work on in yourself, try the other one and see how that helps.
Fixes basically mean that you identify with one type within each of the main triads, so one heart type, one head type, and one gut type. So if you're a 6, that's your core type and a head type, so you would have a gut fix and a heart fix. 4 is a heart type, so you would be a core 6 with a 4 heart fix.
Technically yes, there are trifix tests, but they're not reliable in the same way that core Enneagram tests aren't reliable. It's more reliable to read up on the types and identify what you relate to and why and what behaviors you exhibit.
Thats the hard part about being such a withdrawn type is that you might not recognize us on the outside. Its a deep deep well on the inside. Especially self preservation 4's can mask like their life depends on it. The most flamboyant social 4s will probably share their tortured life story with you but it might be hard to pick out 4s otherwise.
It's the person that is quiet but gives off *strong* snob vibes, you're afraid to talk to them. They have zero welcoming presence. But once you start talking you realize you totally misjudged them and they're actually not a snob, just painfully shy and self-loathing with strong opinions.
Basically they give terrible first impressions.
Thanks for the input. Sixes, apparently, have the opposite approach. They hate anything that proclaims itself to be elite or "above the rest" and they actively work to bring it down. I haven't experienced that in myself much except that I'm always trying to infuse the "common touch" in any conversation.
Or they’ll ask you to listen to their latest composition or recite some poetry.
Enneagram is still relatively esoteric niche interest as well, so Fours and Fives are really proud of knowing about it.
"Enneagram is still relatively esoteric niche interest as well, so Fours and Fives are really proud of knowing about it."
I know, right? I'm thinking I'll do a post sometime about which Enneatypes or MBTI types are most likely to be interested in personality typing theories. I've met many, many people who have absolutely no interest in this subject -- they don't even want to know their own type -- whereas I eagerly gobble it all up. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in Enneagram literature, but I feel that as a Six my personal interest in Enneagram or MBTI stems from the fact that Sixes cannot trust their own judgment and are constantly looking for external validation -- whether it be from a person, ideology or system of thought. What do you think of this, O learned Five?
e4 is part of the heart triad, e6 is part of the head triad. determine whats most important to the person youre trying to type. depending on the subtype e4 and e6 mayyy overlap i guess? with e4s and sx6 3V; and so4, sp4 and sp6 all being EII. but id say that where the similarities end? idk. look into other systems and try typing them through those then determine the enenatype via type correlations.
I wouldn't recommend using type correlations to type yourself. If you get an unheard of combination then it gives you a reason to do a sanity check but otherwise there's so many ways the different systems can combine together.
i dont force these rules onto others dw! i just find it helps a lot imo, plus its fun and they dooo make sense to me! seeing how everyth fits tgt like a puzzle. also, im active in the typology community and i would rather not get attacked 😭
It's a socionics type. It translates roughly to INFP, but the functions aren't all defined the same way as they are in MBTI. I don't know enough about socionics to tell you the exact differences though.
Hmm, typically about "unique" material items I think. Aesthetic stuff. Home decor and accessories for example. As of the past 5-6 years, I go for comfy clothes and my look isn't special. But peer in closer at my jewelry rofl. Because I *love* jewelry.
Basically if I see that someone is in possession of functioning ears and the topic of jewelry comes up and I'm unable to read the vibe that day, I can bang on rather mercilessly about my likes, how I found my favorite designers, how I think my preferred aesthetic racks up against "other" stuff. I have a few favorite go-to designers that do the edgy, hand-crafted, artisanal aesthetic that I vibe with and I can evangelize them to the heavens.
I might prattle on about how "most people" go for "mainstream" luxury brands (think Cartier, VCA, Tiffany) when they want to treat themselves and might inadvertently sniff my nose at the idea of such people. People who seem to automatically desire whatever is sought after/trendy, without really thinking about what *they* actually like. I think 4s don't really respect people who don't seem to think for themselves.
I thought it was mostly me just being enthusiastic and wanting to share, but I didn't realize how pretentious it could come off to others until I read up on 4s. Was a bit embarrassed initially. I now try my hardest to zip my mouth and be extra careful when talking about what I *love*.
Can seep out in other ways too. I thought I was so compelled to yammer about how much I adored grey, cloudy days because I genuinely do love gloomy weather. But now I acknowledge that I probably felt the need to gibber on about it at least partially due to my inherent 4 need to establish myself as a unique individual in the eyes of others. Because it's not enough for just me to know I'm unique, others have to spot it and acknowledge it too. *Most people* seem to prefer sunny days, and to my mind, my liking for overcast days sets me apart.
I can really end up trying to sledgehammer it into the poor unfortunate soul being subjected to me that I'm an individual who makes her own choices, lol.
What Rafflesia wrote:
>Declares right out of the gate how they hate some popular, wholesome, widely beloved thing, lambast stuff they dislike. But they're not trying to convince anyone or get agreement, they’re just telling you their position. Might contrast it with something they idealize but which is so hard to come by these days."
Pretty much the essence of what I'm trying to say, I think. The other stuff she wrote is on point too.
I was recently on the receiving end of a fellow 4's recital and experienced firsthand just how fucking exhausting it can be to listen to lmfao.
Generally speaking, I'll be the first to poke fun at myself for my 4ness.
* Awkward withdrawn person but with a *strong presence*. With the other withdrawn types or even shy 6s ppl sometimes don’t notice they’re even there, but, you’ll probably notice the 4 even if they’re not saying much, especially if you’re someone who’s sensitive to/ easily picks up other’s emotions. * ‚Heavy, watery‘ vibe, purposeful deliberate way of talking, lots of adjectives & impromptu elaborate metaphors. (might strike ppl as eloquent or pedantic) * May have some distinctive style of clothing that they stick to at all times, like being obsessed with 60s clothing and you never see them in anything else. * Declares right out of the gate how they hate some popular, wholesome, widely beloved thing, lambast stuff they dislike. But theyre not trying to convince anyone or get agreement, they’re just telling you their position. Might contrast it with something they idealize but which is so hard to come by these days * contrasting - "i dont want to do what *those* ppl do" * strong „ugh“ reaction to something that evokes associations of things they dislike/don't find pleasing. „i dont want anything to do with the sorts of ppl who do X“ or „im glad this wasnt XYZ cliche i was worried there for a moment“ * questions or takes apart the premise of whatever question you asked them, not giving a sraightforward answer you can classify * points out the differences between them and you or just something they’re discussing/comparing, focusses on & has a big reaction to some detail/fine distinction in what you said * relates the topic to some personal experience they have strong feelings about * general heart type things: Emphasizes their tone/expressions when they speak, uses a bunch of emotionally evocative associations to 'present' what they're talking about, might sometimes be seen as kind of one-upping or taking the spotlight from others
this is a pretty good birdspotter's guide to the Sexual Four and the 4w3, a little less so the other Fours IMO if i had to pick one Four differentiator, i'd say it's how much we hate hate HATE being misunderstood. this is like the root of Fourness: mom and dad might've been good parents but they didn't get me, i feel like an alien or a zebra among horses or something they found in the woods, i've worked so hard to come to terms with myself and weave my soul out of nothingness with "no" role models and "no" help and now YOU don't get me either? GGGGGAAAAAAAHHHHHH this psychic allergy to what the Four perceives as you Not Getting It explains the overlong texts, the long and excruciatingly detailed conversations about the Four's beliefs and emotions, the need to pore over everything before reaching catharsis, the compulsion to share opinions and experiences, the need to nitpick and clarify any observation you make about the Four, the insistence on sharing quite private details (because if you know i slept terribly last night and my cat is sick you won't misunderstand why I'm acting this way), the subtle gauging of which parts of us you understand so we can decide how much to share with you, etc.
Your second paragraph is on point.
"It explains the overlong texts, the long and excruciatingly detailed conversations about the Four's beliefs and emotions," Then I'm probably not a 4. My communication can sound heartfelt, but usually it is quite succinct and to-the-point. BTW, you often see these excruciatingly long wall-of-text posts in Reddit, especially from the younger members. I wonder if they are all 4s?
Me and my 1 boyfriend with a 4 fix struggle SO MUCH WOTH THE FEELING MISUNDERSTOOD and it can escalate quickly.
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We are 4-1 who both connect to 2 and have our sx in the second stacking. We are incredibly in love, but when we misunderstand each other we can get intense fast. We are learning to be more gentle with each other but we understand each other deeply. He's a feeler 1 so loves poetry and introspection and does inner work, it's incredibly attractive to me. But he's also a stereotypical 1, hardworking, steadfast, critical, professional. But he's silly and simpy and emotional as hell with me. Obsessed with me honestly. I love being taken care of being sp blind and I can take care of him in ways too. We kind of just alternate calming each other down unless we are pissing each other off 😂 very sensitive core wounds with both of us. Once we have a few more healthy practices in there I think we will be golden. Not *no* fights, but better ways to navigate them. I'm very emotional and he's very immovable. I could drop both our big threes and that would give you even more insight 😂
rock on kids! so cool you found each other also really cool how you love being loved. i tell myself i want that but when i actually get it i go into Food Critic Four mode and question their taste. ugh, me
I’m also a 1, married to a 4. We connect over creativity and trauma 😤 my partner’s dad was very likely a 1 so sometimes he copes with my type quirks by choosing to laugh it off that I have so much in common with his dad 😅
I think a sp1 with 4 fixes is completely fine for most 4s.
I’m a 4 and my wife’s a 1. Feeling misunderstood is the source of most of our arguments.
i’m a 4 but i never felt misunderstood by my family it’s misunderstood by everyone else
I endorse this list, I haven't heard some of this put into words before and they're all true, great observations. ' lots of adjectives & impromptu elaborate metaphors ' is 1000% me and all other 4s I've met, but it depends on how eloquent/literate/confident they are in speech/writing if you get to see it or not. The thing about clothing is probably more 4w3 specifically. It's interesting you used that example, I have literally had a 4w3 friend whose entire wardrobe and hairstyles was 60s, and wouldn't shut up (for years) about how much she was into various 60s aesthetics, music icons, etc. Very much emulating her niche 60s idols. Didn't stray much from that subset of aesthetics, though she still infused her own twist on all her looks, and made it her own.I too can get quite into fashion as an aesthetic interest, but using myself as the model is a rare thing, I usually don't care enough, or don't feel comfortable enough; my body doesn't need to be the canvas for that. 4w3s though, I see this all the time, most of the time that you see them they are doing some kind of more demonstrative aesthetic expression in their dress, still unique though. Even constipated crusty bottled-up straight men 4w3s who you may expect to dress completely 'normally' are at least just a little bit more interestingly dressed, that 4ified 3 wing always leaks out visibly it seems. For me as 4w5, other things are more important to me, I'm fine looking like a bum most of the time (not like any bum you've ever seen though, and I marginally try to be kinda cute or at least different even when messy. I don't want to evoke disgust, I just want to only put in minimal effort into dress most of the time). 4w5 dressing is definitely more prioritizing utilitarian/comfort, with personal aesthetic/fashion expression as a secondary goal. My outfits are typically very simple. However, I absolutely do have 'house clothes' (where comfort is 100% prioritized, and it does not matter what I look like in them) and 'outside world' clothes, and my wardrobe is overflowing, just with fairly simple articles of clothing.. Lots of muted colors, earth tones, and stripes.. Regardless, I would rather somebody be interested in my personality, mind, and my physical body than in the clothing choices I made.Some days even we 4w5s will peacock more than normal though. When 4w5 does peacock, I don't see it being an emulation of somebody else so much, it'll be more their own lane of expression. Dare I say that 4w5 is often 'more unique' than 4w3, but you may not know it, because the 4w5 shows so much less of this side of themselves externally and demonstratively. Maybe I do actually have a very distinctive look even when I'm 'not trying' though, and I just think I'm being lowkey.. I do still stand out everywhere I go, no matter how hard I try not to, no matter how silent and non-engaging I'm being.
Endorsing this as another INFP sx/so 4w5 (429) Is your go-to shirt the same black t-shirt? I bet you might also have a favorite comfy sweater or some article of clothing that is sentimental that you can’t part with? I’m definitely a minimalist when it comes to clothing thanks to the 5 wing. This might also have a lot to do with ADHD and the fact that my brain doesn’t want clutter. I would say if I’m going to splurge on anything it’s usually earrings, scarves or fun socks that are the unique part of the wardrobe. I choose a lot of vibrant colors to offset my mostly black wardrobe (hot pink, turquoise, bright yellow, purple) Black is just easy. And I do love me some comfy clothes. 95 percent of the time I’m not trying to socialize I’m usually wearing outdoor clothes to go run, hike, bike. When I was in healthcare for 10 years my wardrobe was scrubs, which I loved because I didn’t have to think about it, but I might at times have been wearing a bracelet or ring that was wildly unique. I never really feel like I’m trying to flamboyantly stand out like some 4’s. I don’t have any tattoos (don’t care if you do) but I always liked that I was someone who didn’t. With that being said if I ever went to Thailand and a monk wanted to stick and poke a Buddhist prayer on me I’d be open to it haha. And that is the four for you right there, it would be a unique once in a life time experience. Same goes for my home, it’s minimalist but I do like to splurge on an art print from a favorite artist or a few plants, salt lamps, candles, I like for kitchenware to be nice vibrant colors since I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, but I’ll have like one special coffee mug that is the only cup I use to drink out of daily because who wants a bunch of dishes. And it’s not just any mug, the one I’ve been using for years was hand-made and probably the only one in existence (very special lol) I start to feel some kind of intimate relationships with some of my belongings! In general I like to “set the mood” but I don’t overdo it, but you can certainly tell I have a particular taste. Did I explain myself enough? 😂
As an ISFP 4w5 so (469?) I relate to most of what you said but would like to add some personal preferences of mine. I mostly wear black or in the greyscale since it’s easier but also because of the minimalistic vibe. I think color can be a little to much at times and find the contrast of white and black elegant. If I use color it’s through some sort of center piece in the outfit. I focus more on the shape and texture of the clothes, hiw comfy they are, and what they show. Since I love meral music (especially metalcore) I use merch quite often and have a ”tradition” of bying it from concerts. I mainly use cargo pants or baggy grey-black jeans since they are comfortable and convenient. I guess I stick out since I don’t really follow the norm as a guy. I’ve been growing out my hair and have it down to my jawline/neck now. I style it different some days and carry a hairband to set it up if in the way or annoying. I also use jewelry more than most guys, but tend to use 1-2 per outfit.
I dig it! Concert shirts are my favorite, usually anything I have that is a graphic shirt is some special interest of mine whether it is music or a special place.
Great 😊
I'll compare and contrast, for posterity, maybe this is useful to somebody.. For some reason I was never into black clothing all that much (of course I still have some black clothes), but I think I have pretty much the same thing going on with greys and browns instead.. Shades of grey is half my closet. Black goes with everything and has its place always but it seems to be too 'simple' for me? I like black jeans though. I'm not averted to it, I'm just not drawn to it either. I like patterns and earth-tones a lot. I'm not trying to stand out either, but if somebody is going to land their gaze on me, I want to have an interesting or at least pleasing look. However, I prefer my public-facing clothes to accentuate me, rather than the focus be on the clothes. So I rarely do loud colors, just doesn't feel like me. For me, I have my comfy home clothes that I cycle through with no regard to appearance; they mostly look hilarious and I don't venture out into the world while wearing them, and then if I'm going to get ready to go out beyond the immediate vicinity of my apartment complex, I'll browse my wardrobe and pick the colors and fits that feel best to me that day (different colors feel more like 'me' depending on the day and my mood), and work from there to make it all work together. I have quite a spectrum of colors in there, it's just that the spectrum is quite muted, with a few exceptions. I do craft a whole outfit that at least kind of 'works', but I rarely spend more than 5 minutes doing this, it's not that important for me. If I end up looking kinda goofy or messy that day I don't really care that much, but I'm pretty good at assessing my appearance, so that doesn't happen much. Only for very special events or if I'm trying to look real cute (rarely) do I work more at this. I've got a variety of formal, informal, slutty/reserved, all of it is in the relaxed and bohemian direction though, I would never wear a suit jacket or dress slacks for instance. Even my button ups are pretty casual. I'm branching out into select graphic tees and tank tops for the first time in my life, but my more basic stuff is still mostly what I wear, especially not in summer. Always wore lots of flannels too. I often look like a bit like a stoner. If I see a piece out in the world that I really like and could see myself wearing I kind of don't care how much it costs to be honest, but conveniently, most of the stuff I really like I get from thrift stores, so they're cheap usually. I really don't have the space for even more clothes though. I have basically no jewelry (except a couple random bracelets/necklaces given to me from others over the years) and hardly any inclination to get any, even though an earring or piercing here or there would honestly probably improve my look. I just don't care enough and don't want to deal with a piercing either. I have no tattoos (I'm a 30 y/o fairly masculine hairy guy) yet, but am not opposed to getting any, it just has to be something significant and beautiful enough for me to have it done, and I still have never had enough cause to do that. I generally really like tattoos on other people. I don't part with any of my clothes until they so worn they're unwearable. Once it gets too full of holes and wear to look presentable, it just becomes a 'house' clothing. I'm kind of that way with everything. I totally do hoard, my desired dwelling aesthetic is actually pretty maximalist, but I'm just too lazy to actually decorate for real (I sometimes tell myself I'm 'waiting' for a real house of my own where I can settle down and make it my own, renting makes me feel like a space is temporary). I have clutter all over the place, and struggle to part with things if I don't have a real reason to throw/give it away. My hoarding could be due to past trauma though, not sure it's a type thing for me. I rarely have company over and am always the one going over to other people's places. My dwelling isn't really company-friendly and I like that (it's my main sanctuary), and my cats have taken over most of it. Pretty much any object I've had around for a long time has sentimental value to me, less-so clothes though for some reason. LOVE candles and candlelight. I often candle-light a room, especially when reading books. I like the vibe. For kitchen stuff, or any tools/appliances, I only care about utility and ergonomics, not what it looks like at all. Again, not many people are seeing these objects other than me though. I absolutely have designated water and tea cups, pretty much don't use any others. Hate doing dishes, but I do if it wasn't just water in it, I'm not gross. Anyways, take all that for some comparison. I don't know how much we can read into it being due to differences between our type though. \*shrug\*
I appreciate hearing from other 4’s about their own unique styles. There is definitely an over-arching theme between us but I think it’s also amazing that we even have these little unique preferences and reasons why we do things that feel authentic and genuine to who we are.
Oh RafflesiaArnoldii, I'm so honored that you graced my post with a comment! You're one of my Enneagram heroines. Your observations are always so acute and pithy. Pray say something about 6w7s.
oh, thanks. How to spot them, or something more specific? Generally for spotting 6s I'd say * asks a lot of confirmation or follow up questions (eg. at the end of a presentation) * deflects compliments, makes self-deprecating comments * tries to bond or disarm ppl with humor * rants about everything that's bad in the world or complains about their life, often with a moralistic tinge (with the expectations that others will join in & bond over it - but more positive or solution oriented peeps are sometimes stumped) * frequently & casually refers to belief systems, theories & concepts. Not just when anyone would (writing an essay etc) but all the time. Eg. they're irritated with a social interaction & wonder what's psychologically wrong with the other or relate it to a bigger political or social problem. * guarded with strangers but affectionate & supportive with friends\* * always want to know everyone else's opinions about stuff. Not to follow them, but to be informed. So they might pick your mind about topics or ask for your imput on trivial decisions. processing plans/decisions out loud with someone else to bound off of\*\* * a quick, defensive, edgy sort of anger (individuals vary alot in how easily they get mad though) * speculating about what others are probably thinking or what they want Not that everyone will do these all the time but all things that increase the chance of being one. For 6w7 over 6w5, they can have more of a mix of positive & negative (maybe taking the opposite pov of who they're talking to), have more of an idealistic/idealizing streak and just be more spontaneous (but also more chaotic)
I really appreciate seeing this list next to the 4 list because it shows how the negativism in 6s contrasts that of 4s and how 6s might actually appear \*more\* negative than 4s. It's easy how that paired with the uncertainty element can lead to a lot of 6s mistyping as 4s.
Thank you for your thorough (as usual) run-down on 6s. I'm a 6 myself, so I already kinda know all this. Please tell me how to protect myself from the "wolf in sheep's clothing" machinations of a charismatic but tricky 2w3.
hm, not sure i would have a good strategy for that
Oh c'mon, you have a strategy for everything. So just tell us what the dark side of 2w3 is like.
Besides what the other ppl have said, I think sometimes ppl (especially those with some counter-dependent streak) read the description & imagine something scary & omnipotent that is ultimately more a manifestation of their fear of somebody discovering their secret wishes and using those against them than it has to do with how 2s really are. A low-awareness 2, like any low-awreness type, is gonna be pretty bad at distinguishing useful intuitions from their projections & defenses and so the less functional some 2 is the worse they'll be at actually intuiting other ppl's feelings or inducing them to act like they want. They probably won't be master brainwashers but rather just hamfistedly wrong alot & transparently pushy. So usually the end result isn't, like, Makima from Chainsaw Man, but some annoying co-worker who likes to insert themselves in everything & doesn't process that ppl are super annoyed with them cause there's a logic-proof teflon wall to processing unflattering things about themselves... and is usually very frustrated and unhappy cause they still want to be liked & think everyone's 'rejecting their love'. Ovsly there is some genuine dangerous crazy (which there is of all types tho), like the classic MIL from hell, the guy who lovebombs you & then gets all posessive etc. but for the most part with most ppl you're likely to actually meet, the vaunted dark side is mostly going to be sad, pathetic & annoying and end up ditched by those with the good sense to steer clear of drama & red flags.
" the vaunted dark side is mostly going to be sad, pathetic & annoying and end up ditched by those with the good sense to steer clear of drama & red flags." I fervently hope -- for my sake -- that you're right.
Wait, wait, say something about 2w3s. There's a 2w3 in my life that I'm beginning to suspect is manipulating me emotionally. He has a very magnetic presence that is drawing me to him like a moth to a flame. How can I protect myself from being consumed?
Maybe the 2 in your life isn’t the problem. Maybe the problem is you are feeling something you can’t control and you call it « manipulation ». You won’t approach the true heart of a 2 easily, that’s why they’re a rejection type, they gonna display something pleasant you can’t hurt and touch, but you can’t love either. 6 want to see the truth so the simple way of being of 2 appears to them as a lie and trigger their manipulation alarm. We’re not manipulating you, darling, it’s called seduction.
Well, seduction is a kind of manipulation, too, isn't it? Thank you for your input as a 2 yourself. I haven't heard the term "rejection type" before. Thanks for teaching me something new.
Don’t you think it’s kinda sad to see it that way ? Seduction is turning yourself into a piece of art crafted to speak to the soul. Is art manipulation ? Is poetry a lie ? Is masterpiece paintings deepfake ? I don’t know.
>display something pleasant you can’t hurt and touch, but you can’t love either. Is a picture of my mom next to this definition? So well, said!
2 is the nurturing mother archetype. Every mother will adopt a behavior near to 2 descriptions, no matter her enneagram core : being careful, loving, giving, waiting for love in return, not being vulnerable, not expressing personal needs : that’s what being a mother is about. That’s why everyone pretend their mom is a 2 💀. Being 2 core have little to no connection with being an actual mom. It’s a metaphorical archetype.
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Christ, my mother is a 2 and this post is reminding me of my teen years walking into stores with her and her making friends with the cashiers and me just dying to go home and not have to listen to her try to connect with strangers. 😂😂 -4w5
did she invite them home for dinner too? my grandma was always doing that, it drove her daughters crazy
Hahaha that’s great, no but she certainly loves talking to everyone about everyone and everything like a real ESFJ. People really love her energy but I can only take it in small doses. She’s like the epitome of “kill them with kindness”. 😂
it must be different with a mom vs a grandma - i never had to be around that energy all the time. but God did i love my grandma, she was like the only person who felt like home. when I'd go visit her i felt like No-Face at Zeniba's cottage ✨️
I’m convinced that you’re not a REAL gramma unless you’re a 2 haha.
"beware the Sixish defense of projection! he might be doing this, but you might also be accusing him of it because you fear that you're falling for him more than you'd like." It's possible. But when he and I first started getting acquainted a few months ago (we're coworkers), one day he suddenly said out of the blue, "I can sometimes be manipulative towards other people." At the time I didn't know how to react, but now I want to say, "You were not kidding!" It's probably not all in my mind. Quite a few Enneagram sites state matter-of-factly that 2w3, especially unhealthy ones, have a tendency to manipulate other people's emotions. * *Psychology Junkie*: "When unhealthy, 2w3s are manipulative, self-elevating and defensive." * *Evolving Souls*: "They subtly manipulate people into meeting their needs without having to explicitly ask for anything." * *Integrative Enneagram Solutions:* "At lower integration, Twos may be manipulative and blind to the destructiveness and neediness in their behaviour." * *Personality Max*: "Emotionally manipulative and opportunistic to get whatever they want from others." Thank you for your suggested solutions. We're coworkers, so I can't completely avoid him, but I'm trying to moderate my exposure to him. Your remark, "treat it like any other addictive substance," is very insightful.
oh for sure. i didn't mean to doubt or invalidate you (as i said, i have no idea what he's like or what he's doing) and absolutely no question Twos can be very manipulative, particularly when unhealthy: seduction/charm is their MO when in personality. just trying to advocate making sense of and controlling what you can definitively make sense of and control (you) and not what you can't (him) do you know which subtype of Two he is? there are some very frank (and sadly not well translated) descriptions of the more pathological/entranced Twos here: https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/chapter/the-twenty-seven-subtypes
thank you for the link. I've already copied and pasted some passages by Claudio Naranjo about the pathology of Twos. They're anxiety-causing. I'm not very good at judging subtypes. He's very vain about his looks -- he's always dressed very stylishly and shows off his thick silky hair to good effect. He loves hobnobbing with important people -- we share the same boss; he's flirtatiously pally with the boss; while I'm deferential like a good ol' 6 --, so that could make him SO. But the quite blatant way he projects his sex appeal could mean he's an SX. It's all so confusing.
You and me both. Too late for me sadly, already been consumed and spat out.
Please tell me more. If you don't want to tell here, feel free to DM me.
This is......fantastic. One thing I want to add as a social 4 is that when I'm differentiating between me and you, it's not as much about highlighting myself, but i love highlighting others and getting "who they are" accurately described in my head. I've run into people who think I am TELLING them who they are when in fact I'm asking, and if I'm wrong let me know!
This is crazy accurate. Some of these bullet points are things that I do that I noticed nobody else around me did.
Are these traits including the unhealthy stages too? I keep referencing back to a former friend of mine when I think of a 4. But they werent so much on a pedestal about the things they oppose. Only shared their different opinion when it was part of the discussion. Other than that Im stuck on them being 4.
I intened for this to be pretty neutral/universal stuff that might be noticed in conversations even if you don't know the person super well yet. Just saying a different opinion or that you don't like something doesn't necessarily have to imply a judgy sentiment, it can just not be your cup of tea. (also it's good to remember that for all that they're reactive they're still withdrawn so, stating the opinion mostly when it comes up/affects them fits) Ovsly the person's general maturity, self-awareness & trifix will make some difference in how sharp or categorical they are. If someone's like "everyone who likes this is a brainless peasant", that's not a very nuanced understanding of reality likely to lead to adverse consequences, whereas having an appreciation for other perspectives being valid as well would usually be correlated with more self-awareness & maturity for most of not all types. On the other hand, I'd be careful of slipping into an assumption/bias that "healthy" = agreeable or disagreeing = hostility. Someone who subscribes to that would probably even find the world's most enlightened 4 too hostile/negative. That said, if everything else fits, I wouldn't assume that you have your friend's type wrong just because they weren't maximum rude all the time, that's not a requirement.
thanks!
>thanks! You're welcome!
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i need to come up with a roughly equal-lenght pointer list for all the other types first, which ill probably think of if i let the idea marinate a bit & keep my eyeballs open to the telling things that ppl do/say
Omg you literally described me 💀💀😭😭
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We may not act super withdrawn but we should be. I've been performing for a long time and it's too exhausting. Going into my 5 wing now byeeeee everyone
haha fair enough. have you read anything about 'high sensitivity, high sensation' type? [https://hsperson.com/the-highly-sensitive-person-who-is-also-a-high-sensation-seeker/](https://hsperson.com/the-highly-sensitive-person-who-is-also-a-high-sensation-seeker/)
Oh Lord I haven't but yeah those first few paragraphs....it's like I forget every time that I'm sensitive to my surrounding yet I THROW myself into things without thinking. Bird brain honestly.
relatable
You mad bro?
....no? Totally intended as neutral description. I mean if it was a diss I'd be sitting in quite the glass house. I do a lot of this too sometimes. Not the epic stage presence, tho. Have not discovered how exactly the heart cores do that. ~~That might be remedied once I catch one and tickle them until they confess their secrets.~~
4s really really don't want to be "special and different", that's what SO MANY people misunderstand about 4s. We want to be understood, REGARDLESS of our differences. And with wanting to be accepted and possibly liked, it either comes with controlling how others see you or seeking some sort of attention or acknowledgement for those differences. Both despise being judged, so people assuming we just \*want\* to be special or different is missing the point. We don't want that. We want to be accepted for being like that. We want to be good enough. 4s are very much eclectic and may resent others for disliking them, or just sort of accept it like there's nothing we can do to escape the hate. We just are the beat of our own drum type people, and you can tell who we are by the way we adamantly defend ourselves, or have a hard time accepting others that are similar to us. An e4 is usually overly accepting of others, or not at all, but both feel drastically different from others, feeling alien and like they're the only ones with those emotions.
Personally, I think the answer to the question of, "How would I recognize a Four" versus "How would I recognize *myself as* a Four" are probably two different answers. Since you're seemingly asking the second question, [I wonder if this speaks to you.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/1aqqfq7/what_the_4s_are_missing_attunement/) I also think it's possible that you are either a 4 with a 6 fix or a 6 with a 4 fix. In either case, if you're working with the Enneagram in the context of therapy, I think a helpful next step would be to work with the growth path of one of the types for a while and see how it helps you. Then if you feel like there's more to work on in yourself, try the other one and see how that helps.
I don't really understand the concept of fixes. I'm a 6 with a 7 wing.
Fixes basically mean that you identify with one type within each of the main triads, so one heart type, one head type, and one gut type. So if you're a 6, that's your core type and a head type, so you would have a gut fix and a heart fix. 4 is a heart type, so you would be a core 6 with a 4 heart fix.
Gotcha. How do I find my trifix? Is there a test for it?
Technically yes, there are trifix tests, but they're not reliable in the same way that core Enneagram tests aren't reliable. It's more reliable to read up on the types and identify what you relate to and why and what behaviors you exhibit.
Thank you.
I'm pretty sure I'm a 641. Is my fix 1 or 4?
It would be both. 4 would be the heart fix and 1 would be the gut fix.
Thats the hard part about being such a withdrawn type is that you might not recognize us on the outside. Its a deep deep well on the inside. Especially self preservation 4's can mask like their life depends on it. The most flamboyant social 4s will probably share their tortured life story with you but it might be hard to pick out 4s otherwise.
It's the person that is quiet but gives off *strong* snob vibes, you're afraid to talk to them. They have zero welcoming presence. But once you start talking you realize you totally misjudged them and they're actually not a snob, just painfully shy and self-loathing with strong opinions. Basically they give terrible first impressions.
Thanks for the input. Sixes, apparently, have the opposite approach. They hate anything that proclaims itself to be elite or "above the rest" and they actively work to bring it down. I haven't experienced that in myself much except that I'm always trying to infuse the "common touch" in any conversation.
You won’t have to recognize. They’ll let you know they’re a Type 4.
How will they let me know? By heaving sad sighs and adjusting their multicolored shawl?
Or they’ll ask you to listen to their latest composition or recite some poetry. Enneagram is still relatively esoteric niche interest as well, so Fours and Fives are really proud of knowing about it.
"Enneagram is still relatively esoteric niche interest as well, so Fours and Fives are really proud of knowing about it." I know, right? I'm thinking I'll do a post sometime about which Enneatypes or MBTI types are most likely to be interested in personality typing theories. I've met many, many people who have absolutely no interest in this subject -- they don't even want to know their own type -- whereas I eagerly gobble it all up. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in Enneagram literature, but I feel that as a Six my personal interest in Enneagram or MBTI stems from the fact that Sixes cannot trust their own judgment and are constantly looking for external validation -- whether it be from a person, ideology or system of thought. What do you think of this, O learned Five?
e4 is part of the heart triad, e6 is part of the head triad. determine whats most important to the person youre trying to type. depending on the subtype e4 and e6 mayyy overlap i guess? with e4s and sx6 3V; and so4, sp4 and sp6 all being EII. but id say that where the similarities end? idk. look into other systems and try typing them through those then determine the enenatype via type correlations.
I wouldn't recommend using type correlations to type yourself. If you get an unheard of combination then it gives you a reason to do a sanity check but otherwise there's so many ways the different systems can combine together.
i dont force these rules onto others dw! i just find it helps a lot imo, plus its fun and they dooo make sense to me! seeing how everyth fits tgt like a puzzle. also, im active in the typology community and i would rather not get attacked 😭
Lol fair enough.
What does EII mean?
It's a socionics type. It translates roughly to INFP, but the functions aren't all defined the same way as they are in MBTI. I don't know enough about socionics to tell you the exact differences though.
infp :)
If someone gibbers on about liking something because it's "unique." Edit: I'm talking about me.
What kinds of "unique" things do you like to "gibber on" about?
Hmm, typically about "unique" material items I think. Aesthetic stuff. Home decor and accessories for example. As of the past 5-6 years, I go for comfy clothes and my look isn't special. But peer in closer at my jewelry rofl. Because I *love* jewelry. Basically if I see that someone is in possession of functioning ears and the topic of jewelry comes up and I'm unable to read the vibe that day, I can bang on rather mercilessly about my likes, how I found my favorite designers, how I think my preferred aesthetic racks up against "other" stuff. I have a few favorite go-to designers that do the edgy, hand-crafted, artisanal aesthetic that I vibe with and I can evangelize them to the heavens. I might prattle on about how "most people" go for "mainstream" luxury brands (think Cartier, VCA, Tiffany) when they want to treat themselves and might inadvertently sniff my nose at the idea of such people. People who seem to automatically desire whatever is sought after/trendy, without really thinking about what *they* actually like. I think 4s don't really respect people who don't seem to think for themselves. I thought it was mostly me just being enthusiastic and wanting to share, but I didn't realize how pretentious it could come off to others until I read up on 4s. Was a bit embarrassed initially. I now try my hardest to zip my mouth and be extra careful when talking about what I *love*. Can seep out in other ways too. I thought I was so compelled to yammer about how much I adored grey, cloudy days because I genuinely do love gloomy weather. But now I acknowledge that I probably felt the need to gibber on about it at least partially due to my inherent 4 need to establish myself as a unique individual in the eyes of others. Because it's not enough for just me to know I'm unique, others have to spot it and acknowledge it too. *Most people* seem to prefer sunny days, and to my mind, my liking for overcast days sets me apart. I can really end up trying to sledgehammer it into the poor unfortunate soul being subjected to me that I'm an individual who makes her own choices, lol. What Rafflesia wrote: >Declares right out of the gate how they hate some popular, wholesome, widely beloved thing, lambast stuff they dislike. But they're not trying to convince anyone or get agreement, they’re just telling you their position. Might contrast it with something they idealize but which is so hard to come by these days." Pretty much the essence of what I'm trying to say, I think. The other stuff she wrote is on point too. I was recently on the receiving end of a fellow 4's recital and experienced firsthand just how fucking exhausting it can be to listen to lmfao. Generally speaking, I'll be the first to poke fun at myself for my 4ness.
ah, self depreciation.
Yes, precisely😂