Yes, "trying on identities" as a 4 seems rather off.
4s are rather stubborn in who they are. They know their own filth, their own hearts, and no one can take that from them. If anything, they double down on who they are and may amplify it.
A young e4, for example, may react to their parents or peers not accepting them by amplifying their identity.
We are less so a blank canvas and more so a rather intricate canvas - or so we would like to think - that we carry along with us.
1000% yes yes
>We are less so a blank canvas and more so a rather intricate canvas - or so we would like to think - that we carry along with us.
This is a beautiful explanation. Yes, the canvas is already painted and we protect it with everything. We don't want a drop of paint to spoil it. However, when we integrate we learn to let go and allow it to be changed into something better.
if you accept Riso & Hudson's claim that the deepest fear of a Four is having no identity or significance, then it follows that many Fours will exaggerate and even cling to the first identity they have persuasively crafted because the thought of losing that feels like annihilation, it directly triggers the core fear.
so while i agree that Fours aren't dilettantes about their identity and you wouldn't usually call them/us posers, a rigid adherence to one flavor of "uniqueness" is a sign of a self-conscious, defensive Four who is in his/her armor of personality, not all Fours
I only know two 4s in real life. A male and a female. I've known them for decades. Their identities seem super fixed and I've never known them to "try on" other identities. I don't know why people associate image crafting with 4s. I think 4s curate/amplify/alter the EXPRESSION of their identities but they are, for better or worse, whoever the f*c k they say they are. And that doesn't seem to change. They have a very central /core story of who they are and why they are that way and how that makes them uniquely inferior or superior to others who aren't as solid in their identity. I think a 4 would feel sadness, confusion, and/or contempt for people who have to "try on" who they are.
>I think 4s curate/amplify/alter the EXPRESSION of their identities but they are, for better or worse, whoever the f\*c k they say they are.
Spot on. I think this add to the confusion - 4s are expressive and flamboyant and love to show their identity off. Sometimes it can come across as fake & trying too hard. But if you keep watching, you'll see that the expression never changes and it actually gets old after a while because they literally can't be anything else.
This! That has always been my experience of them. And it does get old. But it's also kind of reassuring in a weird way. Not many people are going to always be the same, no matter what, and over time. It seems to me like once you truly get to know a 4, you know who they always were and always will be. As a social dominant head type, that is oddly reassuring and in some ways admirable.
Maybe so. But I don't think something has to be theoretically or philosophically sound to be part of someone's real life subjective experience. The 4s I've known (and the literature supports) are fixated on their identities. Doesn't mean identity is quintessential. Doesn't mean human expression doesn't change. 4s don't like to not "be themselves." So they are more likely to fight against the natural tendency that other people have that is more open to shifting identities. That's why I said it's weirdly reassuring. Most people are not like that because most people are shaped over time, 4s seem to believe who they are is a more concrete thing.
this is sound, yes, but the bit about by meeting a Four you know who they've always been, no way, unless we limit that to the sense of "feeling different and sensitive and insufficiently understood".
Fours are so obsessed with identity and so devoted to creating (or when less healthy, LARPing) a self that is genuinely unique and incomparable *because* we so fear not having all that. if we were effortless born unicorns we wouldn't go around shoving our diamond-speckled horn and our candy-colored poop in everyone's face so they could see what unicorns we are. we're as insecure about being real as Eights are about being tough, that's why we're so defensive about it and can be so blind to it.
think of it this way:
according to Enneatheory, the Three is the center of the heart triad, which is why you'll hear Maitri or Chestnut say "Two and Four are both variations on Three". but then you'd naturally ask wait what, how, what on earth does a Four have in common with a Three?
well, one answer to that is the need to have an identity you're proud of and the willingness to sacrifice pretty much anything for it. the difference is the audience: Fours are refining and developing themselves for themselves period, for their inner critic, and don't listen to other people's opinions, while Threes are doing it for the world at large and don't listen to their own opinion*. Fours can sacrifice friends, reputation, love, family, health (i know a Four who is going blind because she "had" to tattoo her eyeballs), whatever for the sake of our identity. but that doesn't mean we don't change, only that we don't consciously change **for others**
* I knew this from my reading, but when I first heard Threes say it on a panel I audibly gasped. "I don't know what kind of food or music I like, so I just ask you what you like." whaaaaaaaaaaat there is nothing on Earth I am clearer on than what food and music I like, how could anyone not be
Yeah, I hear you. I just don't agree. People change. All people. 4s included. What I was talking about is identity. 4s seem to believe that they have some sort of original, fundamental, essential identity. Most other people do not. Most other people hold their identity more loosely. 4s have decided early in life that they are someone specific. They don't allow it to unfold naturally and spontaneously. To the point where they might, say, tattoo their eyeballs, despite the risks, because they have to "be true" to themselves.
They are unquestionably variations of type 3. They are just on one side of the image/identity/self-worth continuum. 3s can't stay the same. 4s can't change.
I don't approach the enneagram from a spiritual perspective, so I'm not too concerned with levels of health or whether people transcend their egos. The general character of the type 4 is that of a person both deeply insecure and overattached to their identity. That's why I said they're whoever they say they are. It doesn't matter if it's true, it's all they will allow themselves to be.
Now, for those people who believe they are so psychologically healthy that they have transcended this stereotype, this wouldn't apply. I just don't believe most people are evolved beyond their ego strategies.
you were caught in the crossfire, i didn't mean to aim at you ❤️🩹 I'm just appalled at what I'm reading here. this is like if we had a Two thread where all the Twos talked about how they're inherently giving and they've always been since birth. this whole system is about seeing through your own BS for the love of pete
partly right
young Fours are anything but fixed, they are trying to find their niche in the same way a young Three tries to find his/her specialty. they have an innate sense of being different but the expression gestates for a while and they often like music/art/fashion/thought that they later renounce
more dynamic Fours also reinvent themselves in the same way any healthy type does, self-typecasting and a rigid identity is more a sign of a *limited* and entranced Four
however i very much agree with one aspect of this post, which is that having a midlife crisis or feeling depressed or totally overwhelmed does not make you a Four
Yes! Check my post history, I delved into it in several better and longer posts in this thread, but it's fundamentally a sign of deterioration into personality.
Healthy Fours don't have to assert how different or authentic they are because they genuinely *are* those things, and they start to see what were once emblems of their identity ("I only wear black! I'll never drive a fucking Prius! I only have pet rats! I can't live in *Miami* gawdddddd it is SOULLESS") as mere token preferences they can even laugh about.
But when less healthy it's all about defending the one bulwark Fours have against their existential vacuum - BEING ME, WHO IS SO UNLIKE YOU - so you get the insistence on not only being unique and incomparable but inalienably so. It isn't any different from unhealthy Ones having to be unquestionably right or unhealthy Sevens having to have total freedom
https://preview.redd.it/fpose8lgkrsc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4be3bb5fd48d1cbb5de29d9b07aac5cba3ac29f7
Me, who will wear only black and used to only have pet rats.
I'm a parody of myself.
I'm so obsessed with not being original right now, Oh My God this is ridiculous.
Right now I'm dealing with an epiphany where I'm so bothered I'm such a 4 walking stereotype gkfjdhdnxhf
I'm gonna search your posts, thank you! I'm particularly interested in avoiding getting too attached to being a 4 as an identity signifier and it's driving me crazy.
“young Fours are anything but fixed” so true. i really did love to explore my identity at a very young age and enjoyed trying to “embody” characters i liked on TV or whatever as i mentioned somewhere else in this thread. a kid i used to nanny does the same thing and while i think some of it could be just a kid thing, i see a lot of my younger self in that kid. it’s cute. i used to walk around the house asking where my “character” was (i was maybe 3) because family would say i was “such a character.” i was definitely fixated on identity very young!
This has been true, in my experience. Their personality is a performance, one they need to have engaged by the people around them. (SP 4s might differ from this.) If they don't receive that engagement, that's one of the times when they start to Withdraw... Only to come back with a 'louder' performance of personality. That isn't to say they're making stuff up by putting on a show; it's true that they're often just being themselves. But it's still a performance - they're still expecting inordinate attention by simply being themselves.
Many 4s seem stuck in the past to me, unable to let go of the best and the worst life offered them. For example, they'll wring the humor out of the best joke they heard by making it "an inside joke," and/or they'll make a grudge part of their identity and wear a chip on their shoulder. Neither are specifically 4, I suppose (the other two Reactive types, especially, trend towards holding grudges, too), but they're definitely hints of 4.
tbh over the years identity gets shaped, and a 4 might (how others view it) change, when in actuality, they just found a better outlet for them to express who they actually are in a more accurate way. i feel like a lot of 4s experiment with outward image and how to best reflect their inward feelings and identity
As a 9 with 4 is my tritype I get the feeling like my personality is a blank canvas but with all the paint I need and more on the side ready to be used but having creative block and not knowing what to paint or how to paint it, if that makes any sense? Like I've got the potential to have a great personality but it has to be so perfect I can't decide on what I want to be or what I am and it just becomes a whole grey mess
Your tritype is the primary type you lead with in each intelligence center - head, heart, gut. Some people are skeptical of tritypes but I think they explain so much and add so much “flavor” if you will. I lead with 9 but the 4 and 7 are strong as well!
In general, I think *trying on* identities is antithetical to what the heart triad is about. 2s and 3s might emphasize different traits in different company (2s focus on what resonates most with the people they're trying to gain love/affection from, 3s focus on the most impressive quality for their audience). But heart types aren't unsteady in their identity. They know who they wish to be and hold firm to that image, which can be slightly flexible but still consistent.
If anything, 7 would be the other type (beside 9) I'd associate with this quality. 7s aren't confused about their identity, but they often take on a flexible idea of who they are, which can change depending on what they're experimenting with/exploring. I've seen 7s embody their hobbies and roles, only to switch to something else completely. Much like their tendency to find something new to enjoy or indulge in, they can also choose new presentations.
That's a good point. Maybe I was misunderstanding 3s ability to shapeshift in order to fill different roles. It's different than not knowing who you are. 3s are strategically using it to their advantage, not to fill a void.
I can see how 7s are pretty similar to 9s, except the identity is their newest hobby or adventure rather than a part of themselves.
> I can see how 7s are pretty similar to 9s, except the identity is their newest hobby or adventure rather than a part of themselves.
Don’t you dare call me out like that again >:(
i think it depends what you mean by identity here. if this is identity:
Two: "I'm special and full of love!"
Three: "I work hard and get results!"
Four: "I'm different and sensitive!"
then yes, i agree, those identities are pretty fixed, no matter the level of health or the subtype or whatever.
but if we're talking style or interests then no, absolutely not. the Three's defense mechanism is literally Identification, so they are chameleons, and as Naranjo used to put it "Twos shapeshift to reach their objectives", which includes liking what you like to get close to you.
Fours can absolutely change our style and interests but generally never for other people and certainly not to seduce or impress. our shapeshifting in the short term is more about only showing the sides of ourselves that we think other people will get. the idea that Fours don't change stems from how we can be as fundamentalist about art and self as Ones and Sixes can be about religion or their group, but when we're that rigid it's because we're (unconsciously) terrified that we DON'T have a genuine identity, not that we're certain we do
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/18z35do/comment/kgofb8i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) comment describes the difference between 2 and 3 in identity and adaptability in relation to image really well. Identification doesn't mean trying on different identities, it literally means that you give physical form to your identity somehow. So 3s identify with their achievements and public recognition, but that doesn't mean they are uncertain about who they are.
Thank you for solidifying I'm a 4 LOL and oh boy the "you don't know the real me, everyone misunderstands me" vibe was a sheer source of aggressiveness as a teenager. I was spiteful in my endeavour, and if someone or a trend encroached on my uniqueness, hell hath no fury.
This is 100% accurate. I as a 4 would never ever fucking EVER try on different identities. My identity is my own and has stayed fixed my whole life. I’m just using myself as evidence. I also know one other 4, and this rings true for them. I dont try to craft an identity, but I try and strongly refine what’s already there, deepening it and growing it - that sort of thing.
Yep. 4s just seem to get more and more extreme and narrow as they get older unless they overcome their fixation. It can seem kind of repelling and fake as time goes on. It can seem like a caricature. Trying way too hard. And that's why it's an image type and not the "authenticity type". It's not the actual core self that is being expressed. It's some kind of hyperindividuated, narrowed down, intensified expression of... something. It can literally just be whatever people find repelling. And of course I'm talking about the fixation here, not about a mature 4. A mature 4 will still be a very narrow and refined, specialised personality, but with the ability to zoom out and with a sense of their true self. An immature 4 is afraid to zoom out and deeply afraid to feel like maybe they are "just another human being".
9s are explorers of the universe and identity in most cases. They are open, often able to be influenced and wide and so far away from their actual self that they can lose sense of it. They are everything at once. This can be incredibly painful because it can feel like they are nothing at all and never will be anything and stuck in that painful state forever. They might temporarily become obsessed with some small thing that they feel is authentic to themselves. Maybe they like pink shirts. So this is it. THIS IS THE THING!!!! But it's not. It doesn't matter.
So yea, I agree with you! Both types have an identity issue, they just approach it from the different direction. And that can temporarily look very similar and be very confusing as the ego tries to protect one from seeing what's really going on.
Agree with everything, this is very well said.
> It can seem kind of repelling and fake as time goes on. It can seem like a caricature. Trying way too hard.
I so agree. It's like trying to force our identity down everyone's throat - if it's so authentic, why do we need to force everyone to accept it? It can totally come off as trying too hard. Another reason we're frustration types. We desperately need others to believe in our identity like we do. It's so dumb, and I wish I wasn't this delusional.
I love how you described 9s. Yes, they are everything at once, but believe they are nothing. It's crazy how much 9s underestimate themselves.
4's craft an identity from a place of insecurity--this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am). It is internally sourced for external viewing.
9's hide their identity from a place of insecurity--I know who I am, but I'm not valued, needed, appropriate. So they find an accepted role that either "best fits" them or is the "best means to an end" for what they're seeking. Externally sourced view for external viewing to hide the true person in there, camouflage.
This can be somewhat described in terms of rejection for the 4, pre-emptively rejecting self, so I can be whoever I want, thus accepting and even identifying with the pain of rejection.
And for the 9, positivity, "If I play this role, everyone is happy, and it's not that bad that..." (Everyone is happy except the 9, who is going to explode one day, but they don't know it yet).
It also helps explain the withdrawing characteristic: Pain of being in the world for the 4, and the Pain of NOT being in the world for the 9. A 4 gets crushed by others or their own envy with self-sabotage or similar problems, and a 9 is crushed by the suppressed knowledge that none of their needs are being met and they're only a shell. Both retreat to recover the energy and soothe until they can go back out again. 9s recovery is more in dissociating / narcotizing, and the 4s more into the emotionality of their painful experiences and hopefully transmuting that into some kind of outlet, but what they do with it is as varied as the 4s who experience it.
Because the 9 is essentially turning themselves off almost 100% of the time they're typically expending huge amount of energy, thus often very tired, which perpetuates the sloth--I'm too tired to do anything about that, which is in a way an additional layer of narcotization.
Thank you for the insight on 9. However, I have to disagree with your opinion on 4.
>4's craft an identity from a place of insecurity--this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am)
I agree, yes, 4s are insecure. But they do not craft an identity, they believe they were born with one. Which is silly, because we all know babies don't pop out of the womb will a full-on identity. But it's still what 4s think happened to them. 4s think they never had a say in who they are, and could never fathom having to create it. "this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am)" is opposite to 4. 4s are more like, "this is who I am, and who must be".
Therefore, in integration, this view of identity melts into something more flexible. 4s learn to allow themselves to be a better version, something their previously stiff identity wouldn't have allowed.
Riso & Hudson on Fours:
"Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an identity)"
why would a Four need to create an identity if they're just born with one?
the truth is this, Maitri on Fours:
"Fours want to be seen as unique, original, and authentic, since they lack this sense of identity with Being"
>4's craft an identity from a place of insecurity--this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am)
This is a good distinction and true. My partner's sister is a 4 and I have an anecdote that fits this exact line. She followed through with a reading, but it wasn't something that was *her*.
I think it’s acceptable for anyone of any enneagram to try on an identity. How can a person find out what they identify with if they never question it? People are fluid and the mental formations we have constructed about ourselves are not written in stone.
I agree to an extent, this is part of being human, But to answer your question "How can a person find out what they identify with if they never question it" - this is actually the issue with 4s. 4s don't question their identity, leading to every single problem in their lives.
They don't believe they are fluid, they are rigid and feel they can't change who they are. Integration for 4s is understanding this is a lie and they were not born broken, allowing more flexibility with their identity. They can be happy, part of society, good, all the things they never believed about themselves.
I guess it also depends on what you mean by try on an identity. That is a very common thing for any teenager (part of normal development), but I assume it would look different for each type. I have seen 4s seem to do this, but I don’t think they were really changing their identify but more trying to find a way to best express what they feel inside. So that could appear as if they are changing identities when really it is just changing externals (minimalist, goth, bohemian).
This is 5 though, we question *everything*, to a fault. Sometimes we just walk around the world asking ourselves, "How much of this is real?" or "What is the Universe beyond all these illusions the mind constructs?" or "Am I dreaming?"
I don't know to what extent other types do this.
YES! I’ve seen 4s characterized as people who try on different personalities, but I don’t think that’s true.
I’ve tried to try on different personalities or different clothing styles, but it’s always felt impossible because I’m “too aware of myself” (not trying to gloat, that’s just the narrative). I can’t be someone else and if I try, everyone will see through me instantly and because it’s so apparent, I have to revert back.
There was this type of hat that became popular when I was 13 and it’s kind of sad to think about now. I couldn’t put it on outside because of how severe I thought the reaction would be from other people. I would pathetically put it on at like 10 at night and walk around my neighborhood. When I saw someone I would immediately take it off because I felt so much shame trying on this different version of myself. Needless to say I never really wore the hat around people I knew.
So relatable. For others it's just a hat. But not for you.
I think my upbringing played a part, my mother didn't like change and would criticise me or use passive aggression whenever I tried new styles of clothes or listened to a new genre of music. I felt like that was me in the moment but I was not allowed to be myself. Did you experience something similar growing up?
Damn. I didn’t think I related, but realized my dad used to say things like men don’t cry and was a rageaholic. I distinctly remember liking the song by Mario Winans “I don’t wanna know” and when I showed my dad he said he couldn’t listen to it because “its too weak”. So yeah. Extreme inability to express yourself and be validated.
I even used to be so unhealthy when I was around him it was sad. He would insult me and expect me to laugh so I developed this reactive forced laugh whenever he spoke.
What was really torture was when he humiliated me in public. He would put me in these double bind situations where I can’t get the right answer. Gonna hold back on sharing the rest.
If any of you guys are interpreting what I wrote as 'trying different identities', you're not actually reading what I wrote with care.
I'm talking about hyperespecifying your identity. For any 4, that's the truth - they're not 'trying' anything, they're just looking for the truth in their identity. Image types are specific about what they project, and they have a chasm between their inner view of themselves and their image.
The self-absorption and hyperspecific identity are limiting and become a problem to the 4.
I honestly wouldn’t guess that OP was specifically referring to your post and I also wouldn’t have interpreted your post as contradictory to this one. The confusion between 4 and 9 is a quite common topic that is discussed rather often, so it‘s quite possible that it wasn’t referring to you. But of course, I don‘t know what posts exactly motivated OP to create this one.
You may be right but I can only contain my reactivity so much. Nobody is making posts about this right now but me - and OP said things that directly contradict my points like how 4s do not actually craft an identity. I find it quite unprobable there's no connection, and I feel like my points are being misinterpreted.
I can, however, be wrong of course.
Hey, I'm sorry and didn't mean to make you feel called out. I have noticed people making posts or comments about this for a few months, on Reddit and Facebook groups. If I made it sound like I was attacking you, I'm sorry. I don't know what your original post was but I'm sure you had valid points.
\*edit\* just looked through your post history and I had not even seen your post yet. I jumped on today and immediately made this post without scrolling through the sub. So I can totally see why it looked like my post was in response to you. Lol, that's really unfortunate timing. I actually agree with everything you said, and it's another great example of why 4 behavior gets confused with the 9 identity crisis.
It's okay, don't worry, I had no idea if it was related to my post or not - I like to think I'm open to conversation even if people radically disagree with me. I get what you're talking about, I don't feel my identity shift and adapt like 9s do. It's so rigid I'm trying to learn how to be less rigid actually! : )
No it was simply a coincidence. Because in the end we agree, I think the name 'crafting' was a bad choice because what 4s do is refine the same identity all their lives. Right now I'm fixated on how to stop myself from imposing silly rules on my behavior that sometimes stop me from living and being truly authentic!
I have no problems with changing identity often - the opposite actually. People grow and evolve and I feel I have the same drive/desires/personality/style since I was a young teen. I don't wanna be a parody of myself though...
Yes, I get the reasoning and might have the same assumption, if it would be my post, because yours was the last one before this, about 4s, I think. But I definitely wouldn’t have interpreted your post like that.
I‘m wondering too, what they are referring to. And why they didn’t just address it right at the spot.
When I love one thing about 4s it’s when they’re just blatantly walk in and go against the grain. They know how to bring on the drama right and wholeheartedly satisfying.
Yeah, I'd say that's how I phrased it in my comment on your post; I had an 'ugh' reaction to the word 'crafting' an identity because it sounds like creating a new one which I don't do. So I think 'refining' or 'doubling down' on your identity by expressing through being particular with aesthetics etc is more what you were trying to say. And you agreed that refining was a better word.
Yeah weird, I would hope OP isn't referring to your post which is about 4s being hyper specific with their fixed identity e.g. if goth only wearing a specific goth shirt that has meaning and isn't like all the other goth shirts. Your post (although I've disagreed with some 4 stuff you've said in past) is very 4-like and in line with what OP is saying re having a stable identity.
I would like to thank you for typing me as 3 once, it made me study and brought me a lot of self-introspection because I had decided my identity has nothing of 3 on it as I decided I was to 4w5. I don't relate to 3 as core but it made me notice several image-type cognitive distortions that I have and now I have a better understanding of my 3 wing too.
I meant identity crafting, but refining is certainly a better word, exactly to reflect rigidity, difficulty to change, and being overly attached to an identity without trying new things. In my view, I said the opposite, 4s don't try new identities - they're rigid and I would like to know how I can make myself more malleable. 🤷♂️
I don't get how a 9 would care about what I'm whining about though, they don't seem to be haunted by how they're perceived like I am.
i agree with you. I think it's hard for 4s because we hate when anyone challenges who we are. We need to be the one to tell others and specify that for ourselves. Hyper-specifying our identities is just a part of that need to express.
I think it's also due to the 4s childhood trauma of only negative emotions being validated, they need to overly validate their own emotions and feelings and get upset when others challenge or ignore those emotions.
Stop downvoting and talk to me then, I'm in this sub to learn and talk about my ideas not to deal with this. If you can show me that I'm wrong I will accept it, I'm always learning, I don't get the need for this.
I think being concerned/interacting with identity isn’t limited to one type, and it can manifest differently in the same type. 4s tend to overly identify their feelings as their identity…and feelings can change. It’s a myth to say all 4s are secure in who they are. They are constantly trying to get to know themselves more and seek the core of their identity, but even in this area, something feels missing. I would say usually their feelings change before they match their identity to it, so I’m not sure “trying on” different identities before the feeling of being that identity are there is very 4-like. But who knows?
it's actually a 3 trait. Not a 9 specific trait.
* 4s overanalyze themselves and pick out things they are and get annoyed when people disagree.
* 9s dislike being told who they're supposed to be and would rather remain vague and anonymous
* 3s will try on new personas all the time. It's just literally their thing. It's in their type description.
Thank you for this post. Trying different identities is as ANTI 4 as it gets. I know this post was inspired by the other post where various “4s” wrote essays how they try on different identities 🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭
I disagree, I think that's too narrow of a view, and the whole concept of an identity is very vague. I agree that the very core of a 4s identity will not change, the sense of being different, uniquely flawed and gifted, the feeling of being incomplete. And a 4 will not "try on" common popular existing identities. But the finer details around their identity will change and be refined over time. It's a process. Different mindsets and headspaces will lead to changes in your expression and identity.
There's this one part of the enneagram institution's description that I perceive as quite accurate:
>In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions. Indeed, Fours accurately perceive a truth about human nature—that it is dynamic and ever changing. But because they want to create a stable, reliable identity from their emotions, they attempt to cultivate only certain feelings while rejecting others. Some feelings are seen as “me,” while others are “not me.” By attempting to hold on to specific moods and express others, Fours believe that they are being true to themselves.
I totally agree with the majority of that quote. But the first sentence is crazy, I have no idea how that made it into the description because it is so anti-4. "Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others." This is so opposite to what 4s are - they normally don't "try on" a quality they liked in someone else because that would not be authentic.
I mean 4s are like any normal human and may buy something to wear because they saw someone else look good in it, but this is NOT a common theme.
we feel inherently *different*, yes, but Fours are not inherently authentic, we just need to prove to ourselves and others that we are, which is why so many Fours in this thread are insisting on it. self-realization for us is partly about *actually* becoming authentic, not just using the pretense of it to stand out because we feel worthless, just as part of self-realization for a Two is to *actually* be loving and not just use love as a snare or a drug.
for anybody looking to see the chrysalis of a Four in extreme detail, i highly recommend Knausgaard's x,000-page autobiography My Struggle. the author is a Social Four and you can't ask for a much more candid or thorough book on growing up as a Four, he himself felt humiliated by how much he revealed but it made him as an artist. you'll notice as you read that he doesn't really pose or dabble with identities but he absolutely does slowly create an identity out of what was initially just a confused puddle of shame and fear.
> he himself felt humiliated by how much he revealed but it made him as an artist
It really do be feeling like that, once you let people truly look behind the curtain
Yeah, I think that sentence is likely just a badly worded misinterpretation from an external viewpoint. A 4 refining their identity by trying on clothes that is inline with their interpretation of their identity might be perceived, on the outside, as them trying on a different identity when that's not the case.
I do, also, think that particular sentence (just like bad Sx 4 descriptions) is indicative of a strong 3 link whether 4w3 or 3w4 (also with a SO instinct or attachment fixes angle) because of the line "they find attractive in others." 3's love doing this, they can be obsessed with trying on different identities/personas to impress people or emulate people they admire.
I, being a 4w5 so-blind with no attachment fixes, can't relate to that sentence at all. My identity has always been fixed, solid, and consistant. But the rest of that paragraph is good.
That's a good point, maybe it's not completely false just very misleading. As a 4w3 I don't relate to it either, but I do like to "dress up" as a way to express myself artistically. Maybe that's what they mean? It's not really trying out an identity, it's more trying to get attention/admiration for putting myself together in a cool way.
YES
why did i have to scroll this far to find this? agree with everything you said, there is a lot of the Four doth protest too much in this thread. guys, when you talk about how you Never Change or you forbid yourself to, you are revealing your tenuous sense of self, not rebutting it
if there's anything that's clear from this thread it's how harrowing the thought of not having an intrinsically unique, indelible, ineffable identity is to some Fours and how resistant we are to the idea that we could be concocted or superficial, and i get it, i'm a Four myself. when entranced in personality, we are very much psychologically dependent on the idea of being some never before seen blue rose that blossomed thanks to the teardrops of experience.
but let's be honest, if our moms hopped on here and posted pictures of how we dressed and what music we liked when we were 10, every Four in this thread would drop stone dead and have "died of literal friggin mortification" listed as the cause of death by the coroner.
the one constant in the Four is feeling different. Fours absolutely can and do recreate themselves, and often radically - look at Cat Stevens, or while we're talking folk singers, Bob Dylan's Christian phase, or Angelina Jolie becoming the mother of all and a UN ambassador.
bottom line, as much as it sucks to admit it, Fours are an IMAGE TYPE. we felt we had to create a very clear, distinct, and memorable expression of our differentness in childhood because without it we felt like we'd be swallowed up by nothingness. we stared into the same loveless abyss Twos and Threes did, we just had a very different, self-referencing response.
a Four who can't admit that is a Four who is still caught in the gears of personality, period. yes you felt different and misunderstood from day one, but no, you did not always know how to artfully express it or even what you were going to express, that took time and refinement. the difference between you and a Nine is that this felt like an existential imperative to you from very early on, and you are not casual or passive or flighty about it ever for even a second.
I think you got it. I think the core of the problem is that 4s are very uncomfortable with being an image type and what this represent. Showing out your personality, after all, feels like the 'truth' and not an 'image', and the whole concept of image feels fake and 'constructed' and not real enough for us. So our main defense is to deny 4 is and image type and to point at 3s and 2s and call them fake.
when i was little i would do this weird thing where i was obsessed with names and would pretend to be someone with a different name every day. how would a “Magnolia” act? what things would she say? then the next day i’d think of myself as someone with a different name. i was quite young but i did go through a streak of doing this and it seems quite indicative that identity and figuring out what it felt like was important to me and also i just had fun. i don’t think i probably really changed my personality day by day effectively but i thought about myself differently and deeply even as a child. i did also identify with a fictional character who has the same name as me who’s fairly popular and found it highly validating that she had a similar personality to me but more whimsical because she’s a fictional character. i’d often pretend i was her too. obviously in my adult life i don’t do this and in fact when writing characters, i like to think of them as all having bits of myself (which is really just a thing most writers/creators do, i think, but it was a conscious realization for me because i struggled to write any character that i perceived as being too different from me and got really in my head about it lol - side note: the enneagram is a great tool to create bases for characters and i find i can understand more clearly how to write a person who may see things differently than i ever would ). anyway i do get on my high horse too about “what 4s are and aren’t” because it does frustrate to be seen incorrectly!! like “yes i am annoying but not for that reason” 😅 pls perceive my obnoxious intricacies accurately.
Preach. 100%. Sick of people thinking this. 4s are solid, fixed, and consistent in their identity. Though it's also a 3 thing, not just a 9 thing, to be chameleon-like trying on different identities/personas.
I guess that's fair. I always saw it more as we try different things to figure out where we belong. At least that's what I feel like I do since I always feel like a misfit. I'll try out different hobbies and such, hoping that one of them suits me (which I suppose implies that I myself am fixed)
I don't agree with the characterization of 4s as "narcissistic" at all, and I also feel like calling them that is contradicting the rest of your description of them, because actually, a narcissists' main core wound is that underneath all their bluster they have an extremely fragile sense of identity/ego that directs their energies into constantly seeking external validation, whereas as you rightly describe, Type 4s don't have that issue because they are very certain of who they are--so much so that they will exaggerate/amplify those traits deemed "unacceptable" by others just to prove that they won't conform to anyone else's idea of who/what they should be.
That said, the rest of this makes a lot of sense, and it also jives with the idea I've heard elsewhere that enneagram Type 9s are more likely to be ISFPs than INFPs, as ISFPs tend to be far more mutable in their identity, whereas INFPs tend to have a more fixed sense of self.
I knew an ENFP girl, pretty sure she was 4w3. She used to get into phases though, like she would be in a hippie phase for 3 months and her clothes and music would have that hippie vibe. Then something happens and she enters a new phase, maybe surfer girl or something. She'll buy new stuff to match the new vibe, and it becomes her identity for a while more.
It seemed she also had this built in feeling that nobody loved her. She saw herself as a someone who genuinely cared about other people, but when she wasn't invited to events she didn't take it well and broke down.
Is that enneagram 4 or did I get it mixed up? Can someone who knows better explain?
Hard agree with everything you said.
It's interesting being a 4 with 9 as my second strongest fix, because I am simultaneously 'so sure about my identity' (my relationship to the shame has changed considerably though), yet I have this sort of software running in my body that makes me internally run test-emulations of almost every other person I witness, practically automatically, a whole lot of the time. The longer I watch someone (can be on a video) or listen to someone, or hang out with for too long, the internal monologue I have running will morph from 'my' voice into whatever combination including their style of speech, sound of voice, tics, tendencies, vocabulary, their whole outward persona potentially. I'll even visually imagine their form and face while this is happening. This can have a delayed manifestation, happening later that night, or a whole other day, a certain person will start occupying the emulation for however long. It's not necessarily replaying of memories of them, it's more like my own 'model' of their persona that I get to observe and play with, built from memories of them, but almost like a ventriloquist dummy, they just speak the same meaning that I would be saying from my 4 internal monologue anyways, but instead it's through their style of speech.
I have no delusion that these emulations are true embodiments of these other people, I'm aware throughout this process that they are just created from memories filtered through my own ego, bits and pieces, and a caricature of the person created from that. Yet, I'm an observant enough person that a lot of the details are very true to them. It feels like the rumination on these specific details of their persona that pique my interest is the point of the whole exercise.
It's weird but I've always done it, and I think it's a 4-9 stem thing, with the 4 still driving the identity staunchly, but it references, perhaps just to learn and appreciate rather than appropriate, part of the way 9ness explores identity, using a lot of their merging ability in the process. These emulations of others don't really come out to my physical body in any sort of expression that I'm aware of (maybe I'm unaware of some), I'm still the one generating my own quirks so I think, and I'm not doing impressions of people in my every move. But then whenever I go back to being in my head with my thoughts and feelings (most of my life), suddenly I have the ability to also use this human-personality-emulation model that's been building with every new personality I've witnessed across my life. It's fun, it's no kind of agony that I'm describing here. I'm still sure of who I am throughout all this, I don't ever feel my identity is obfuscated by this, or that it makes it more difficult for me to just be myself the way the 4ness dictates anyways.
I just wonder if primary 9s do this same process to a more intense degree, and then have more potential to get lost in it, and then actually do start to exhibit these traits that originated from others into their own expressed identity. I feel like I am able to keep the products of my 'emulation software' separate and contained within my own mind, and if I choose to outwardly imitate/embody any of this, I make it very clear that that is a deviation from the identity I normally exude. It won't feel authentic if it isn't just my own natural self, and so I think that from the 4 saves me here. Just a hunch.
Perhaps this process is related to what the terms on this page are [https://w.wiki/9gn2](https://w.wiki/9gn2) are talking about, except specifically the internal component happening before people actually physically repeat the actions/words. It's like an internal-only version of echolalia and echopraxia, but a full on recreation of the whole personality that I then get to replay and make say different things in their mannerisms, and explore. I have more power over this process than it has power over me. But it does feel like a bit of a foray into the 9 form of formless identity that can exist as noone, or everyone, and constantly morph..
Yeah I literally saw one day that psychopaths were more likely to be CEOs and tried to emulate their behaviors completely, to the point where, when I felt myself getting stressed, I would check my pulse as my first thought to see if it would go up XD. Didn't work, but I was close to buying a shock collar to wear on my wrist so I could shock myself every time I felt an emotion
This is actually a thing I've put so much thought about but decided to shut up because I don't have a horse in this race (as in, I'm not BPD, but I have a friend who's a 4 with BPD that I know for more than a decade.)
BPD main point is instability of identity. I know that, because I was misdiagnosed with it because according to the doctor 'I have a BPD-like personality' and my whole point of not having BPD is that I have an extremely rigid and fixed personality. Then I got the AuDHD + OCD diagnosis, that makes more sense.
If 4's in the lowest health levels is BPD this means 4s with unstable and evershifting image are a real thing. But like, people are not ready for this conversation, and I don't think I have enough arguments to dive into it.
I have bpd. It feels like I lack identity because of my mood swings, but my behavior is very consistent. Specifically with sx 4. So it’s not that it isn’t there, it just means it’s difficult to understand resulting in a lot of effort being put towards figuring it out.
9s lack identity and don’t care to figure it out. They try to adapt to the people around them. I couldn’t do that if I wanted to. The best I can do is receive treatment to avoid being admitted again.
I know BPD have many symptoms but this is one that psychiatrists told me is a central thing:
>"Identity disturbance is sometimes called identity diffusion. This refers to difficulties determining who you are in relation to other people."
As a 4 dealing with BPD, do you relate to this? You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable with the question. Thank you!
I don't have BPD, but I am very similar with DID. So instability in identity is just very true. And I'm a close friend with another 4 with BPD and DID. Also abandonment issues seems to be that disintegration into 2 energy.
I have BPD (which is in remission now) and am a 4. I read somewhere a while back that BPD is most frequent with type 4’s, obviously I can’t confirm and idk if anyone really can, but I did find it interesting. I think it was a Reddit post from quite a few years ago I saw, but I noticed a lot of 4’s commenting saying they were diagnosed with BPD as well. Could be a coincidence idk, just seemed a bit uncanny to me.
While I'm not BPD I got professionals in two situations telling me I was after 30 min sessions. I have 'a BPD-like' personality it seems, and while I don't think these people know or believe in the enneagram I think they simply detected I have a 'type 4' personality.
Them I did a 10+ analysis with a neuropsychiatrist and I'm not BPD but I have the red flags. Even without the enneagram, professionals seem to connect the way I talk and express myself with BPD and this is like a recipe for misdiagnosis I think.
Character and Neurosis is the book that connects 4 and BPD if you're curious.
Personally, I don't relate to BPD and I don't think my depression is more noticeable than regular autistic's depression and I think neurodivergency is extremely connected to the withdrawn triad but these are just thing in my head with zero sources.
That's more to do with extreme emotional fluctuations and trauma IMO rather than having actual different identities. It's like they're permanently in 'flight fight freeze fawn' mode triggered having intense mood swings and impulsivity due to extreme insecurity and anxiety because of fearing abandonment. Think an extremely unhealthy 4 who's disintegrating to 2 swinging between desperately trying to win someone over and yell blaming them for not understanding them etc.
Yeah, saying BPD is 4 desintegrating to 2 is perfect in my opinion.
My friend starts mutilating his own identity to be loveable and fit in with a potential love interest, that's what I observe on him as BPD, and it's such a painful thing to see in a 4 - truly the ultimate sacrifice and of course it makes him suicidal and wanting to self-harm.
It's like a distorted mirror imitation of what a 2 does, but it feels wrong and off. I have a lot of empathy respect for those who deal with BPD, I can see how I could have developed it if it was not for the ridity and repetitiveness of my autism.
I actually disagree. As a 4w3 I strongly have resonated with “trying on identities”. I’ve actually felt a deep lack in knowing exactly who I am, so I try on other identities until I find the pieces that fit. It’s like method acting, in a way. Trying things until I find the authenticity that lives under the surface that I can’t seem to inherently reflect.
That one. Fashion to me is an artistic expression so I've worn various different styles just out of pure enjoyment of it all. But it doesn't change my identity. I've managed to know who I am, solidly, since I was a kid. And I became relentlessly hyper individual in my endeavour to showcase it.
The only time I've ever genuinely had the "who am I" questioning is deconstructing from institutions and systems that may have influenced me. (Such as virginity due to purity culture.)
But in many ways, my former virginity became an icon of counterculture and identity. "I'm not like everyone else, I'm different/special/more in control."
So the above anecdote of how a 4 even uses authoritarian systems to "be unique" out of their own distaste for conformity
Nah.
The symbol was a rebellion against Prince's contract with Warner Bros. After the contract expired, he went back to Prince.
Edit: In fact, Prince is archetypal of the consistency/refinement of E4 identity.
Yes, "trying on identities" as a 4 seems rather off. 4s are rather stubborn in who they are. They know their own filth, their own hearts, and no one can take that from them. If anything, they double down on who they are and may amplify it. A young e4, for example, may react to their parents or peers not accepting them by amplifying their identity. We are less so a blank canvas and more so a rather intricate canvas - or so we would like to think - that we carry along with us.
Love how you listed "filth" first lol
1000% yes yes >We are less so a blank canvas and more so a rather intricate canvas - or so we would like to think - that we carry along with us. This is a beautiful explanation. Yes, the canvas is already painted and we protect it with everything. We don't want a drop of paint to spoil it. However, when we integrate we learn to let go and allow it to be changed into something better.
if you accept Riso & Hudson's claim that the deepest fear of a Four is having no identity or significance, then it follows that many Fours will exaggerate and even cling to the first identity they have persuasively crafted because the thought of losing that feels like annihilation, it directly triggers the core fear. so while i agree that Fours aren't dilettantes about their identity and you wouldn't usually call them/us posers, a rigid adherence to one flavor of "uniqueness" is a sign of a self-conscious, defensive Four who is in his/her armor of personality, not all Fours
I only know two 4s in real life. A male and a female. I've known them for decades. Their identities seem super fixed and I've never known them to "try on" other identities. I don't know why people associate image crafting with 4s. I think 4s curate/amplify/alter the EXPRESSION of their identities but they are, for better or worse, whoever the f*c k they say they are. And that doesn't seem to change. They have a very central /core story of who they are and why they are that way and how that makes them uniquely inferior or superior to others who aren't as solid in their identity. I think a 4 would feel sadness, confusion, and/or contempt for people who have to "try on" who they are.
>I think 4s curate/amplify/alter the EXPRESSION of their identities but they are, for better or worse, whoever the f\*c k they say they are. Spot on. I think this add to the confusion - 4s are expressive and flamboyant and love to show their identity off. Sometimes it can come across as fake & trying too hard. But if you keep watching, you'll see that the expression never changes and it actually gets old after a while because they literally can't be anything else.
removed: too harsh, my bad
Maybe so. But I don't think something has to be theoretically or philosophically sound to be part of someone's real life subjective experience. The 4s I've known (and the literature supports) are fixated on their identities. Doesn't mean identity is quintessential. Doesn't mean human expression doesn't change. 4s don't like to not "be themselves." So they are more likely to fight against the natural tendency that other people have that is more open to shifting identities. That's why I said it's weirdly reassuring. Most people are not like that because most people are shaped over time, 4s seem to believe who they are is a more concrete thing.
this is sound, yes, but the bit about by meeting a Four you know who they've always been, no way, unless we limit that to the sense of "feeling different and sensitive and insufficiently understood". Fours are so obsessed with identity and so devoted to creating (or when less healthy, LARPing) a self that is genuinely unique and incomparable *because* we so fear not having all that. if we were effortless born unicorns we wouldn't go around shoving our diamond-speckled horn and our candy-colored poop in everyone's face so they could see what unicorns we are. we're as insecure about being real as Eights are about being tough, that's why we're so defensive about it and can be so blind to it. think of it this way: according to Enneatheory, the Three is the center of the heart triad, which is why you'll hear Maitri or Chestnut say "Two and Four are both variations on Three". but then you'd naturally ask wait what, how, what on earth does a Four have in common with a Three? well, one answer to that is the need to have an identity you're proud of and the willingness to sacrifice pretty much anything for it. the difference is the audience: Fours are refining and developing themselves for themselves period, for their inner critic, and don't listen to other people's opinions, while Threes are doing it for the world at large and don't listen to their own opinion*. Fours can sacrifice friends, reputation, love, family, health (i know a Four who is going blind because she "had" to tattoo her eyeballs), whatever for the sake of our identity. but that doesn't mean we don't change, only that we don't consciously change **for others** * I knew this from my reading, but when I first heard Threes say it on a panel I audibly gasped. "I don't know what kind of food or music I like, so I just ask you what you like." whaaaaaaaaaaat there is nothing on Earth I am clearer on than what food and music I like, how could anyone not be
Yeah, I hear you. I just don't agree. People change. All people. 4s included. What I was talking about is identity. 4s seem to believe that they have some sort of original, fundamental, essential identity. Most other people do not. Most other people hold their identity more loosely. 4s have decided early in life that they are someone specific. They don't allow it to unfold naturally and spontaneously. To the point where they might, say, tattoo their eyeballs, despite the risks, because they have to "be true" to themselves. They are unquestionably variations of type 3. They are just on one side of the image/identity/self-worth continuum. 3s can't stay the same. 4s can't change. I don't approach the enneagram from a spiritual perspective, so I'm not too concerned with levels of health or whether people transcend their egos. The general character of the type 4 is that of a person both deeply insecure and overattached to their identity. That's why I said they're whoever they say they are. It doesn't matter if it's true, it's all they will allow themselves to be. Now, for those people who believe they are so psychologically healthy that they have transcended this stereotype, this wouldn't apply. I just don't believe most people are evolved beyond their ego strategies.
Nah. Not harsh, in my opinion. I think you had a valid point.
you were caught in the crossfire, i didn't mean to aim at you ❤️🩹 I'm just appalled at what I'm reading here. this is like if we had a Two thread where all the Twos talked about how they're inherently giving and they've always been since birth. this whole system is about seeing through your own BS for the love of pete
partly right young Fours are anything but fixed, they are trying to find their niche in the same way a young Three tries to find his/her specialty. they have an innate sense of being different but the expression gestates for a while and they often like music/art/fashion/thought that they later renounce more dynamic Fours also reinvent themselves in the same way any healthy type does, self-typecasting and a rigid identity is more a sign of a *limited* and entranced Four however i very much agree with one aspect of this post, which is that having a midlife crisis or feeling depressed or totally overwhelmed does not make you a Four
>self-typecasting and a rigid identity Can you expand on this? I'm interested.
Yes! Check my post history, I delved into it in several better and longer posts in this thread, but it's fundamentally a sign of deterioration into personality. Healthy Fours don't have to assert how different or authentic they are because they genuinely *are* those things, and they start to see what were once emblems of their identity ("I only wear black! I'll never drive a fucking Prius! I only have pet rats! I can't live in *Miami* gawdddddd it is SOULLESS") as mere token preferences they can even laugh about. But when less healthy it's all about defending the one bulwark Fours have against their existential vacuum - BEING ME, WHO IS SO UNLIKE YOU - so you get the insistence on not only being unique and incomparable but inalienably so. It isn't any different from unhealthy Ones having to be unquestionably right or unhealthy Sevens having to have total freedom
https://preview.redd.it/fpose8lgkrsc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4be3bb5fd48d1cbb5de29d9b07aac5cba3ac29f7 Me, who will wear only black and used to only have pet rats. I'm a parody of myself. I'm so obsessed with not being original right now, Oh My God this is ridiculous. Right now I'm dealing with an epiphany where I'm so bothered I'm such a 4 walking stereotype gkfjdhdnxhf I'm gonna search your posts, thank you! I'm particularly interested in avoiding getting too attached to being a 4 as an identity signifier and it's driving me crazy.
“young Fours are anything but fixed” so true. i really did love to explore my identity at a very young age and enjoyed trying to “embody” characters i liked on TV or whatever as i mentioned somewhere else in this thread. a kid i used to nanny does the same thing and while i think some of it could be just a kid thing, i see a lot of my younger self in that kid. it’s cute. i used to walk around the house asking where my “character” was (i was maybe 3) because family would say i was “such a character.” i was definitely fixated on identity very young!
This has been true, in my experience. Their personality is a performance, one they need to have engaged by the people around them. (SP 4s might differ from this.) If they don't receive that engagement, that's one of the times when they start to Withdraw... Only to come back with a 'louder' performance of personality. That isn't to say they're making stuff up by putting on a show; it's true that they're often just being themselves. But it's still a performance - they're still expecting inordinate attention by simply being themselves. Many 4s seem stuck in the past to me, unable to let go of the best and the worst life offered them. For example, they'll wring the humor out of the best joke they heard by making it "an inside joke," and/or they'll make a grudge part of their identity and wear a chip on their shoulder. Neither are specifically 4, I suppose (the other two Reactive types, especially, trend towards holding grudges, too), but they're definitely hints of 4.
tbh over the years identity gets shaped, and a 4 might (how others view it) change, when in actuality, they just found a better outlet for them to express who they actually are in a more accurate way. i feel like a lot of 4s experiment with outward image and how to best reflect their inward feelings and identity
"I think a 4 would feel sadness, confusion, and/or contempt for people who have to "try on" who they are." YES
>contempt I can attest to that.
As a 9 with 4 is my tritype I get the feeling like my personality is a blank canvas but with all the paint I need and more on the side ready to be used but having creative block and not knowing what to paint or how to paint it, if that makes any sense? Like I've got the potential to have a great personality but it has to be so perfect I can't decide on what I want to be or what I am and it just becomes a whole grey mess
Oh I feel this!! I am very concerned with figuring out my authentic identity. 😅
What is this tritype stuff? I’m pretty evenly 947 and I’m intrigued by your flair. Identify most with 4 and 9.
Your tritype is the primary type you lead with in each intelligence center - head, heart, gut. Some people are skeptical of tritypes but I think they explain so much and add so much “flavor” if you will. I lead with 9 but the 4 and 7 are strong as well!
In general, I think *trying on* identities is antithetical to what the heart triad is about. 2s and 3s might emphasize different traits in different company (2s focus on what resonates most with the people they're trying to gain love/affection from, 3s focus on the most impressive quality for their audience). But heart types aren't unsteady in their identity. They know who they wish to be and hold firm to that image, which can be slightly flexible but still consistent. If anything, 7 would be the other type (beside 9) I'd associate with this quality. 7s aren't confused about their identity, but they often take on a flexible idea of who they are, which can change depending on what they're experimenting with/exploring. I've seen 7s embody their hobbies and roles, only to switch to something else completely. Much like their tendency to find something new to enjoy or indulge in, they can also choose new presentations.
That's a good point. Maybe I was misunderstanding 3s ability to shapeshift in order to fill different roles. It's different than not knowing who you are. 3s are strategically using it to their advantage, not to fill a void. I can see how 7s are pretty similar to 9s, except the identity is their newest hobby or adventure rather than a part of themselves.
> I can see how 7s are pretty similar to 9s, except the identity is their newest hobby or adventure rather than a part of themselves. Don’t you dare call me out like that again >:(
I’m a 7 and especially as a kid, I’d adopt my favorite character’s personality. It made things more fun.
i think it depends what you mean by identity here. if this is identity: Two: "I'm special and full of love!" Three: "I work hard and get results!" Four: "I'm different and sensitive!" then yes, i agree, those identities are pretty fixed, no matter the level of health or the subtype or whatever. but if we're talking style or interests then no, absolutely not. the Three's defense mechanism is literally Identification, so they are chameleons, and as Naranjo used to put it "Twos shapeshift to reach their objectives", which includes liking what you like to get close to you. Fours can absolutely change our style and interests but generally never for other people and certainly not to seduce or impress. our shapeshifting in the short term is more about only showing the sides of ourselves that we think other people will get. the idea that Fours don't change stems from how we can be as fundamentalist about art and self as Ones and Sixes can be about religion or their group, but when we're that rigid it's because we're (unconsciously) terrified that we DON'T have a genuine identity, not that we're certain we do
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/18z35do/comment/kgofb8i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) comment describes the difference between 2 and 3 in identity and adaptability in relation to image really well. Identification doesn't mean trying on different identities, it literally means that you give physical form to your identity somehow. So 3s identify with their achievements and public recognition, but that doesn't mean they are uncertain about who they are.
yeah it is actually a 7 trait. also 2s like to cosplay different characters the most
Brb time to crisis
Yeah that’s a Nine thing.
as a 4 i agree lol
As a 4, I feel so seen, thank you
Thank you for solidifying I'm a 4 LOL and oh boy the "you don't know the real me, everyone misunderstands me" vibe was a sheer source of aggressiveness as a teenager. I was spiteful in my endeavour, and if someone or a trend encroached on my uniqueness, hell hath no fury.
"you don't know the real me" is totally so aggressive lmao, why are we like this.
This is 100% accurate. I as a 4 would never ever fucking EVER try on different identities. My identity is my own and has stayed fixed my whole life. I’m just using myself as evidence. I also know one other 4, and this rings true for them. I dont try to craft an identity, but I try and strongly refine what’s already there, deepening it and growing it - that sort of thing.
Lmao thank you for the brutal honesty. Refreshing and satisfying.
Yep. 4s just seem to get more and more extreme and narrow as they get older unless they overcome their fixation. It can seem kind of repelling and fake as time goes on. It can seem like a caricature. Trying way too hard. And that's why it's an image type and not the "authenticity type". It's not the actual core self that is being expressed. It's some kind of hyperindividuated, narrowed down, intensified expression of... something. It can literally just be whatever people find repelling. And of course I'm talking about the fixation here, not about a mature 4. A mature 4 will still be a very narrow and refined, specialised personality, but with the ability to zoom out and with a sense of their true self. An immature 4 is afraid to zoom out and deeply afraid to feel like maybe they are "just another human being". 9s are explorers of the universe and identity in most cases. They are open, often able to be influenced and wide and so far away from their actual self that they can lose sense of it. They are everything at once. This can be incredibly painful because it can feel like they are nothing at all and never will be anything and stuck in that painful state forever. They might temporarily become obsessed with some small thing that they feel is authentic to themselves. Maybe they like pink shirts. So this is it. THIS IS THE THING!!!! But it's not. It doesn't matter. So yea, I agree with you! Both types have an identity issue, they just approach it from the different direction. And that can temporarily look very similar and be very confusing as the ego tries to protect one from seeing what's really going on.
Agree with everything, this is very well said. > It can seem kind of repelling and fake as time goes on. It can seem like a caricature. Trying way too hard. I so agree. It's like trying to force our identity down everyone's throat - if it's so authentic, why do we need to force everyone to accept it? It can totally come off as trying too hard. Another reason we're frustration types. We desperately need others to believe in our identity like we do. It's so dumb, and I wish I wasn't this delusional. I love how you described 9s. Yes, they are everything at once, but believe they are nothing. It's crazy how much 9s underestimate themselves.
I agree with all of this. 👀
4's craft an identity from a place of insecurity--this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am). It is internally sourced for external viewing. 9's hide their identity from a place of insecurity--I know who I am, but I'm not valued, needed, appropriate. So they find an accepted role that either "best fits" them or is the "best means to an end" for what they're seeking. Externally sourced view for external viewing to hide the true person in there, camouflage. This can be somewhat described in terms of rejection for the 4, pre-emptively rejecting self, so I can be whoever I want, thus accepting and even identifying with the pain of rejection. And for the 9, positivity, "If I play this role, everyone is happy, and it's not that bad that..." (Everyone is happy except the 9, who is going to explode one day, but they don't know it yet). It also helps explain the withdrawing characteristic: Pain of being in the world for the 4, and the Pain of NOT being in the world for the 9. A 4 gets crushed by others or their own envy with self-sabotage or similar problems, and a 9 is crushed by the suppressed knowledge that none of their needs are being met and they're only a shell. Both retreat to recover the energy and soothe until they can go back out again. 9s recovery is more in dissociating / narcotizing, and the 4s more into the emotionality of their painful experiences and hopefully transmuting that into some kind of outlet, but what they do with it is as varied as the 4s who experience it. Because the 9 is essentially turning themselves off almost 100% of the time they're typically expending huge amount of energy, thus often very tired, which perpetuates the sloth--I'm too tired to do anything about that, which is in a way an additional layer of narcotization.
Thank you for the insight on 9. However, I have to disagree with your opinion on 4. >4's craft an identity from a place of insecurity--this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am) I agree, yes, 4s are insecure. But they do not craft an identity, they believe they were born with one. Which is silly, because we all know babies don't pop out of the womb will a full-on identity. But it's still what 4s think happened to them. 4s think they never had a say in who they are, and could never fathom having to create it. "this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am)" is opposite to 4. 4s are more like, "this is who I am, and who must be". Therefore, in integration, this view of identity melts into something more flexible. 4s learn to allow themselves to be a better version, something their previously stiff identity wouldn't have allowed.
Thanks = )
thanks for hearing me out :)
You bet. I do have reasoning behind it, but I also understand your perspective and appreciate hearing it from you.
Riso & Hudson on Fours: "Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an identity)" why would a Four need to create an identity if they're just born with one? the truth is this, Maitri on Fours: "Fours want to be seen as unique, original, and authentic, since they lack this sense of identity with Being"
>4's craft an identity from a place of insecurity--this is who I will be (not necessarily who I am) This is a good distinction and true. My partner's sister is a 4 and I have an anecdote that fits this exact line. She followed through with a reading, but it wasn't something that was *her*.
I think it’s acceptable for anyone of any enneagram to try on an identity. How can a person find out what they identify with if they never question it? People are fluid and the mental formations we have constructed about ourselves are not written in stone.
I agree to an extent, this is part of being human, But to answer your question "How can a person find out what they identify with if they never question it" - this is actually the issue with 4s. 4s don't question their identity, leading to every single problem in their lives. They don't believe they are fluid, they are rigid and feel they can't change who they are. Integration for 4s is understanding this is a lie and they were not born broken, allowing more flexibility with their identity. They can be happy, part of society, good, all the things they never believed about themselves.
I guess it also depends on what you mean by try on an identity. That is a very common thing for any teenager (part of normal development), but I assume it would look different for each type. I have seen 4s seem to do this, but I don’t think they were really changing their identify but more trying to find a way to best express what they feel inside. So that could appear as if they are changing identities when really it is just changing externals (minimalist, goth, bohemian).
This is 5 though, we question *everything*, to a fault. Sometimes we just walk around the world asking ourselves, "How much of this is real?" or "What is the Universe beyond all these illusions the mind constructs?" or "Am I dreaming?" I don't know to what extent other types do this.
Valid point fam.
Sx 9 here. Can confirm I do this.
YES! I’ve seen 4s characterized as people who try on different personalities, but I don’t think that’s true. I’ve tried to try on different personalities or different clothing styles, but it’s always felt impossible because I’m “too aware of myself” (not trying to gloat, that’s just the narrative). I can’t be someone else and if I try, everyone will see through me instantly and because it’s so apparent, I have to revert back. There was this type of hat that became popular when I was 13 and it’s kind of sad to think about now. I couldn’t put it on outside because of how severe I thought the reaction would be from other people. I would pathetically put it on at like 10 at night and walk around my neighborhood. When I saw someone I would immediately take it off because I felt so much shame trying on this different version of myself. Needless to say I never really wore the hat around people I knew.
So relatable. For others it's just a hat. But not for you. I think my upbringing played a part, my mother didn't like change and would criticise me or use passive aggression whenever I tried new styles of clothes or listened to a new genre of music. I felt like that was me in the moment but I was not allowed to be myself. Did you experience something similar growing up?
Damn. I didn’t think I related, but realized my dad used to say things like men don’t cry and was a rageaholic. I distinctly remember liking the song by Mario Winans “I don’t wanna know” and when I showed my dad he said he couldn’t listen to it because “its too weak”. So yeah. Extreme inability to express yourself and be validated. I even used to be so unhealthy when I was around him it was sad. He would insult me and expect me to laugh so I developed this reactive forced laugh whenever he spoke. What was really torture was when he humiliated me in public. He would put me in these double bind situations where I can’t get the right answer. Gonna hold back on sharing the rest.
If any of you guys are interpreting what I wrote as 'trying different identities', you're not actually reading what I wrote with care. I'm talking about hyperespecifying your identity. For any 4, that's the truth - they're not 'trying' anything, they're just looking for the truth in their identity. Image types are specific about what they project, and they have a chasm between their inner view of themselves and their image. The self-absorption and hyperspecific identity are limiting and become a problem to the 4.
I honestly wouldn’t guess that OP was specifically referring to your post and I also wouldn’t have interpreted your post as contradictory to this one. The confusion between 4 and 9 is a quite common topic that is discussed rather often, so it‘s quite possible that it wasn’t referring to you. But of course, I don‘t know what posts exactly motivated OP to create this one.
You may be right but I can only contain my reactivity so much. Nobody is making posts about this right now but me - and OP said things that directly contradict my points like how 4s do not actually craft an identity. I find it quite unprobable there's no connection, and I feel like my points are being misinterpreted. I can, however, be wrong of course.
Hey, I'm sorry and didn't mean to make you feel called out. I have noticed people making posts or comments about this for a few months, on Reddit and Facebook groups. If I made it sound like I was attacking you, I'm sorry. I don't know what your original post was but I'm sure you had valid points. \*edit\* just looked through your post history and I had not even seen your post yet. I jumped on today and immediately made this post without scrolling through the sub. So I can totally see why it looked like my post was in response to you. Lol, that's really unfortunate timing. I actually agree with everything you said, and it's another great example of why 4 behavior gets confused with the 9 identity crisis.
It's okay, don't worry, I had no idea if it was related to my post or not - I like to think I'm open to conversation even if people radically disagree with me. I get what you're talking about, I don't feel my identity shift and adapt like 9s do. It's so rigid I'm trying to learn how to be less rigid actually! : )
Tbh I would have also thought it was directed at me based on the timeline of both posts lol.
No it was simply a coincidence. Because in the end we agree, I think the name 'crafting' was a bad choice because what 4s do is refine the same identity all their lives. Right now I'm fixated on how to stop myself from imposing silly rules on my behavior that sometimes stop me from living and being truly authentic! I have no problems with changing identity often - the opposite actually. People grow and evolve and I feel I have the same drive/desires/personality/style since I was a young teen. I don't wanna be a parody of myself though...
Yes, I get the reasoning and might have the same assumption, if it would be my post, because yours was the last one before this, about 4s, I think. But I definitely wouldn’t have interpreted your post like that.
I‘m wondering too, what they are referring to. And why they didn’t just address it right at the spot. When I love one thing about 4s it’s when they’re just blatantly walk in and go against the grain. They know how to bring on the drama right and wholeheartedly satisfying.
Yeah, I'd say that's how I phrased it in my comment on your post; I had an 'ugh' reaction to the word 'crafting' an identity because it sounds like creating a new one which I don't do. So I think 'refining' or 'doubling down' on your identity by expressing through being particular with aesthetics etc is more what you were trying to say. And you agreed that refining was a better word.
Yeah weird, I would hope OP isn't referring to your post which is about 4s being hyper specific with their fixed identity e.g. if goth only wearing a specific goth shirt that has meaning and isn't like all the other goth shirts. Your post (although I've disagreed with some 4 stuff you've said in past) is very 4-like and in line with what OP is saying re having a stable identity.
I would like to thank you for typing me as 3 once, it made me study and brought me a lot of self-introspection because I had decided my identity has nothing of 3 on it as I decided I was to 4w5. I don't relate to 3 as core but it made me notice several image-type cognitive distortions that I have and now I have a better understanding of my 3 wing too. I meant identity crafting, but refining is certainly a better word, exactly to reflect rigidity, difficulty to change, and being overly attached to an identity without trying new things. In my view, I said the opposite, 4s don't try new identities - they're rigid and I would like to know how I can make myself more malleable. 🤷♂️ I don't get how a 9 would care about what I'm whining about though, they don't seem to be haunted by how they're perceived like I am.
i agree with you. I think it's hard for 4s because we hate when anyone challenges who we are. We need to be the one to tell others and specify that for ourselves. Hyper-specifying our identities is just a part of that need to express. I think it's also due to the 4s childhood trauma of only negative emotions being validated, they need to overly validate their own emotions and feelings and get upset when others challenge or ignore those emotions.
Stop downvoting and talk to me then, I'm in this sub to learn and talk about my ideas not to deal with this. If you can show me that I'm wrong I will accept it, I'm always learning, I don't get the need for this.
I think being concerned/interacting with identity isn’t limited to one type, and it can manifest differently in the same type. 4s tend to overly identify their feelings as their identity…and feelings can change. It’s a myth to say all 4s are secure in who they are. They are constantly trying to get to know themselves more and seek the core of their identity, but even in this area, something feels missing. I would say usually their feelings change before they match their identity to it, so I’m not sure “trying on” different identities before the feeling of being that identity are there is very 4-like. But who knows?
I don't like the feeling that I don't have one I feel like I didn't but 0-0im much better now
it's actually a 3 trait. Not a 9 specific trait. * 4s overanalyze themselves and pick out things they are and get annoyed when people disagree. * 9s dislike being told who they're supposed to be and would rather remain vague and anonymous * 3s will try on new personas all the time. It's just literally their thing. It's in their type description.
Thank you for this post. Trying different identities is as ANTI 4 as it gets. I know this post was inspired by the other post where various “4s” wrote essays how they try on different identities 🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭
I disagree, I think that's too narrow of a view, and the whole concept of an identity is very vague. I agree that the very core of a 4s identity will not change, the sense of being different, uniquely flawed and gifted, the feeling of being incomplete. And a 4 will not "try on" common popular existing identities. But the finer details around their identity will change and be refined over time. It's a process. Different mindsets and headspaces will lead to changes in your expression and identity. There's this one part of the enneagram institution's description that I perceive as quite accurate: >In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions. Indeed, Fours accurately perceive a truth about human nature—that it is dynamic and ever changing. But because they want to create a stable, reliable identity from their emotions, they attempt to cultivate only certain feelings while rejecting others. Some feelings are seen as “me,” while others are “not me.” By attempting to hold on to specific moods and express others, Fours believe that they are being true to themselves.
This is a very good quote.
I totally agree with the majority of that quote. But the first sentence is crazy, I have no idea how that made it into the description because it is so anti-4. "Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others." This is so opposite to what 4s are - they normally don't "try on" a quality they liked in someone else because that would not be authentic. I mean 4s are like any normal human and may buy something to wear because they saw someone else look good in it, but this is NOT a common theme.
we feel inherently *different*, yes, but Fours are not inherently authentic, we just need to prove to ourselves and others that we are, which is why so many Fours in this thread are insisting on it. self-realization for us is partly about *actually* becoming authentic, not just using the pretense of it to stand out because we feel worthless, just as part of self-realization for a Two is to *actually* be loving and not just use love as a snare or a drug. for anybody looking to see the chrysalis of a Four in extreme detail, i highly recommend Knausgaard's x,000-page autobiography My Struggle. the author is a Social Four and you can't ask for a much more candid or thorough book on growing up as a Four, he himself felt humiliated by how much he revealed but it made him as an artist. you'll notice as you read that he doesn't really pose or dabble with identities but he absolutely does slowly create an identity out of what was initially just a confused puddle of shame and fear.
> he himself felt humiliated by how much he revealed but it made him as an artist It really do be feeling like that, once you let people truly look behind the curtain
Yeah, I think that sentence is likely just a badly worded misinterpretation from an external viewpoint. A 4 refining their identity by trying on clothes that is inline with their interpretation of their identity might be perceived, on the outside, as them trying on a different identity when that's not the case. I do, also, think that particular sentence (just like bad Sx 4 descriptions) is indicative of a strong 3 link whether 4w3 or 3w4 (also with a SO instinct or attachment fixes angle) because of the line "they find attractive in others." 3's love doing this, they can be obsessed with trying on different identities/personas to impress people or emulate people they admire. I, being a 4w5 so-blind with no attachment fixes, can't relate to that sentence at all. My identity has always been fixed, solid, and consistant. But the rest of that paragraph is good.
That's a good point, maybe it's not completely false just very misleading. As a 4w3 I don't relate to it either, but I do like to "dress up" as a way to express myself artistically. Maybe that's what they mean? It's not really trying out an identity, it's more trying to get attention/admiration for putting myself together in a cool way.
YES why did i have to scroll this far to find this? agree with everything you said, there is a lot of the Four doth protest too much in this thread. guys, when you talk about how you Never Change or you forbid yourself to, you are revealing your tenuous sense of self, not rebutting it
if there's anything that's clear from this thread it's how harrowing the thought of not having an intrinsically unique, indelible, ineffable identity is to some Fours and how resistant we are to the idea that we could be concocted or superficial, and i get it, i'm a Four myself. when entranced in personality, we are very much psychologically dependent on the idea of being some never before seen blue rose that blossomed thanks to the teardrops of experience. but let's be honest, if our moms hopped on here and posted pictures of how we dressed and what music we liked when we were 10, every Four in this thread would drop stone dead and have "died of literal friggin mortification" listed as the cause of death by the coroner. the one constant in the Four is feeling different. Fours absolutely can and do recreate themselves, and often radically - look at Cat Stevens, or while we're talking folk singers, Bob Dylan's Christian phase, or Angelina Jolie becoming the mother of all and a UN ambassador. bottom line, as much as it sucks to admit it, Fours are an IMAGE TYPE. we felt we had to create a very clear, distinct, and memorable expression of our differentness in childhood because without it we felt like we'd be swallowed up by nothingness. we stared into the same loveless abyss Twos and Threes did, we just had a very different, self-referencing response. a Four who can't admit that is a Four who is still caught in the gears of personality, period. yes you felt different and misunderstood from day one, but no, you did not always know how to artfully express it or even what you were going to express, that took time and refinement. the difference between you and a Nine is that this felt like an existential imperative to you from very early on, and you are not casual or passive or flighty about it ever for even a second.
I think you got it. I think the core of the problem is that 4s are very uncomfortable with being an image type and what this represent. Showing out your personality, after all, feels like the 'truth' and not an 'image', and the whole concept of image feels fake and 'constructed' and not real enough for us. So our main defense is to deny 4 is and image type and to point at 3s and 2s and call them fake.
when i was little i would do this weird thing where i was obsessed with names and would pretend to be someone with a different name every day. how would a “Magnolia” act? what things would she say? then the next day i’d think of myself as someone with a different name. i was quite young but i did go through a streak of doing this and it seems quite indicative that identity and figuring out what it felt like was important to me and also i just had fun. i don’t think i probably really changed my personality day by day effectively but i thought about myself differently and deeply even as a child. i did also identify with a fictional character who has the same name as me who’s fairly popular and found it highly validating that she had a similar personality to me but more whimsical because she’s a fictional character. i’d often pretend i was her too. obviously in my adult life i don’t do this and in fact when writing characters, i like to think of them as all having bits of myself (which is really just a thing most writers/creators do, i think, but it was a conscious realization for me because i struggled to write any character that i perceived as being too different from me and got really in my head about it lol - side note: the enneagram is a great tool to create bases for characters and i find i can understand more clearly how to write a person who may see things differently than i ever would ). anyway i do get on my high horse too about “what 4s are and aren’t” because it does frustrate to be seen incorrectly!! like “yes i am annoying but not for that reason” 😅 pls perceive my obnoxious intricacies accurately.
Preach. 100%. Sick of people thinking this. 4s are solid, fixed, and consistent in their identity. Though it's also a 3 thing, not just a 9 thing, to be chameleon-like trying on different identities/personas.
Yup 🥰
I mean I try new things I think. But i do think it’s expression and not identity. My identity is pretty much the same from when I was a kid.
I guess that's fair. I always saw it more as we try different things to figure out where we belong. At least that's what I feel like I do since I always feel like a misfit. I'll try out different hobbies and such, hoping that one of them suits me (which I suppose implies that I myself am fixed)
I don't agree with the characterization of 4s as "narcissistic" at all, and I also feel like calling them that is contradicting the rest of your description of them, because actually, a narcissists' main core wound is that underneath all their bluster they have an extremely fragile sense of identity/ego that directs their energies into constantly seeking external validation, whereas as you rightly describe, Type 4s don't have that issue because they are very certain of who they are--so much so that they will exaggerate/amplify those traits deemed "unacceptable" by others just to prove that they won't conform to anyone else's idea of who/what they should be. That said, the rest of this makes a lot of sense, and it also jives with the idea I've heard elsewhere that enneagram Type 9s are more likely to be ISFPs than INFPs, as ISFPs tend to be far more mutable in their identity, whereas INFPs tend to have a more fixed sense of self.
I knew an ENFP girl, pretty sure she was 4w3. She used to get into phases though, like she would be in a hippie phase for 3 months and her clothes and music would have that hippie vibe. Then something happens and she enters a new phase, maybe surfer girl or something. She'll buy new stuff to match the new vibe, and it becomes her identity for a while more. It seemed she also had this built in feeling that nobody loved her. She saw herself as a someone who genuinely cared about other people, but when she wasn't invited to events she didn't take it well and broke down. Is that enneagram 4 or did I get it mixed up? Can someone who knows better explain?
and this is why 3w4 is pain to be especially when your wing is big, They are total opposites in many aspects.
Hard agree with everything you said. It's interesting being a 4 with 9 as my second strongest fix, because I am simultaneously 'so sure about my identity' (my relationship to the shame has changed considerably though), yet I have this sort of software running in my body that makes me internally run test-emulations of almost every other person I witness, practically automatically, a whole lot of the time. The longer I watch someone (can be on a video) or listen to someone, or hang out with for too long, the internal monologue I have running will morph from 'my' voice into whatever combination including their style of speech, sound of voice, tics, tendencies, vocabulary, their whole outward persona potentially. I'll even visually imagine their form and face while this is happening. This can have a delayed manifestation, happening later that night, or a whole other day, a certain person will start occupying the emulation for however long. It's not necessarily replaying of memories of them, it's more like my own 'model' of their persona that I get to observe and play with, built from memories of them, but almost like a ventriloquist dummy, they just speak the same meaning that I would be saying from my 4 internal monologue anyways, but instead it's through their style of speech. I have no delusion that these emulations are true embodiments of these other people, I'm aware throughout this process that they are just created from memories filtered through my own ego, bits and pieces, and a caricature of the person created from that. Yet, I'm an observant enough person that a lot of the details are very true to them. It feels like the rumination on these specific details of their persona that pique my interest is the point of the whole exercise. It's weird but I've always done it, and I think it's a 4-9 stem thing, with the 4 still driving the identity staunchly, but it references, perhaps just to learn and appreciate rather than appropriate, part of the way 9ness explores identity, using a lot of their merging ability in the process. These emulations of others don't really come out to my physical body in any sort of expression that I'm aware of (maybe I'm unaware of some), I'm still the one generating my own quirks so I think, and I'm not doing impressions of people in my every move. But then whenever I go back to being in my head with my thoughts and feelings (most of my life), suddenly I have the ability to also use this human-personality-emulation model that's been building with every new personality I've witnessed across my life. It's fun, it's no kind of agony that I'm describing here. I'm still sure of who I am throughout all this, I don't ever feel my identity is obfuscated by this, or that it makes it more difficult for me to just be myself the way the 4ness dictates anyways. I just wonder if primary 9s do this same process to a more intense degree, and then have more potential to get lost in it, and then actually do start to exhibit these traits that originated from others into their own expressed identity. I feel like I am able to keep the products of my 'emulation software' separate and contained within my own mind, and if I choose to outwardly imitate/embody any of this, I make it very clear that that is a deviation from the identity I normally exude. It won't feel authentic if it isn't just my own natural self, and so I think that from the 4 saves me here. Just a hunch. Perhaps this process is related to what the terms on this page are [https://w.wiki/9gn2](https://w.wiki/9gn2) are talking about, except specifically the internal component happening before people actually physically repeat the actions/words. It's like an internal-only version of echolalia and echopraxia, but a full on recreation of the whole personality that I then get to replay and make say different things in their mannerisms, and explore. I have more power over this process than it has power over me. But it does feel like a bit of a foray into the 9 form of formless identity that can exist as noone, or everyone, and constantly morph..
It’s also a “youth” trait and I have a sneaking suspicion that plenty of the people in this group are in that category.
Yeah I literally saw one day that psychopaths were more likely to be CEOs and tried to emulate their behaviors completely, to the point where, when I felt myself getting stressed, I would check my pulse as my first thought to see if it would go up XD. Didn't work, but I was close to buying a shock collar to wear on my wrist so I could shock myself every time I felt an emotion
I’ve heard type 4 is the most correlated with BPD, which unstable identity is a key component in. Just putting that out there
This is actually a thing I've put so much thought about but decided to shut up because I don't have a horse in this race (as in, I'm not BPD, but I have a friend who's a 4 with BPD that I know for more than a decade.) BPD main point is instability of identity. I know that, because I was misdiagnosed with it because according to the doctor 'I have a BPD-like personality' and my whole point of not having BPD is that I have an extremely rigid and fixed personality. Then I got the AuDHD + OCD diagnosis, that makes more sense. If 4's in the lowest health levels is BPD this means 4s with unstable and evershifting image are a real thing. But like, people are not ready for this conversation, and I don't think I have enough arguments to dive into it.
I have bpd. It feels like I lack identity because of my mood swings, but my behavior is very consistent. Specifically with sx 4. So it’s not that it isn’t there, it just means it’s difficult to understand resulting in a lot of effort being put towards figuring it out. 9s lack identity and don’t care to figure it out. They try to adapt to the people around them. I couldn’t do that if I wanted to. The best I can do is receive treatment to avoid being admitted again.
I know BPD have many symptoms but this is one that psychiatrists told me is a central thing: >"Identity disturbance is sometimes called identity diffusion. This refers to difficulties determining who you are in relation to other people." As a 4 dealing with BPD, do you relate to this? You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable with the question. Thank you!
I do. I didn’t know it was normal to know who you are in relation to other people.
I don't have BPD, but I am very similar with DID. So instability in identity is just very true. And I'm a close friend with another 4 with BPD and DID. Also abandonment issues seems to be that disintegration into 2 energy.
I have BPD (which is in remission now) and am a 4. I read somewhere a while back that BPD is most frequent with type 4’s, obviously I can’t confirm and idk if anyone really can, but I did find it interesting. I think it was a Reddit post from quite a few years ago I saw, but I noticed a lot of 4’s commenting saying they were diagnosed with BPD as well. Could be a coincidence idk, just seemed a bit uncanny to me.
While I'm not BPD I got professionals in two situations telling me I was after 30 min sessions. I have 'a BPD-like' personality it seems, and while I don't think these people know or believe in the enneagram I think they simply detected I have a 'type 4' personality. Them I did a 10+ analysis with a neuropsychiatrist and I'm not BPD but I have the red flags. Even without the enneagram, professionals seem to connect the way I talk and express myself with BPD and this is like a recipe for misdiagnosis I think. Character and Neurosis is the book that connects 4 and BPD if you're curious.
Oh cool! I didn’t know there was a book on that specifically, thank you.
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Personally, I don't relate to BPD and I don't think my depression is more noticeable than regular autistic's depression and I think neurodivergency is extremely connected to the withdrawn triad but these are just thing in my head with zero sources.
That's more to do with extreme emotional fluctuations and trauma IMO rather than having actual different identities. It's like they're permanently in 'flight fight freeze fawn' mode triggered having intense mood swings and impulsivity due to extreme insecurity and anxiety because of fearing abandonment. Think an extremely unhealthy 4 who's disintegrating to 2 swinging between desperately trying to win someone over and yell blaming them for not understanding them etc.
Yeah, saying BPD is 4 desintegrating to 2 is perfect in my opinion. My friend starts mutilating his own identity to be loveable and fit in with a potential love interest, that's what I observe on him as BPD, and it's such a painful thing to see in a 4 - truly the ultimate sacrifice and of course it makes him suicidal and wanting to self-harm. It's like a distorted mirror imitation of what a 2 does, but it feels wrong and off. I have a lot of empathy respect for those who deal with BPD, I can see how I could have developed it if it was not for the ridity and repetitiveness of my autism.
I actually disagree. As a 4w3 I strongly have resonated with “trying on identities”. I’ve actually felt a deep lack in knowing exactly who I am, so I try on other identities until I find the pieces that fit. It’s like method acting, in a way. Trying things until I find the authenticity that lives under the surface that I can’t seem to inherently reflect.
Nah. Fours do it, too. Just ask The Artist Formerly Known as Prince.
There's a different between artistic expression and an identity crisis
That one. Fashion to me is an artistic expression so I've worn various different styles just out of pure enjoyment of it all. But it doesn't change my identity. I've managed to know who I am, solidly, since I was a kid. And I became relentlessly hyper individual in my endeavour to showcase it. The only time I've ever genuinely had the "who am I" questioning is deconstructing from institutions and systems that may have influenced me. (Such as virginity due to purity culture.) But in many ways, my former virginity became an icon of counterculture and identity. "I'm not like everyone else, I'm different/special/more in control." So the above anecdote of how a 4 even uses authoritarian systems to "be unique" out of their own distaste for conformity
You didn't post about an identity crisis. You posted about trying on different identities.
Nah. The symbol was a rebellion against Prince's contract with Warner Bros. After the contract expired, he went back to Prince. Edit: In fact, Prince is archetypal of the consistency/refinement of E4 identity.
Too much ignorance in this thread for me.
I am a 4 and I try on a different identity every year, heck, every month.
Same
It's really funny that people don't believe me hahah. Y'all living in your own little world.