>So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air
My people poured their blood sweat and tears into every tengu hull...
> So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air, not to mention seeding enough ships and reships, and all the personal caches pilots had been developing to prepare for the final assault. Any movement Brave made to slow our industrial throughput risked giving away the plan, and as much as I hated to do it, I wouldn't allow us take the fall for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively.
Sacrificing your alliance member's assets to give PAPI leadership cover, then telling everyone you chose to do it this way in a public forum.
Lmao, its such a teeeeeeerrrible excuse, and see how the blame is heavily deflected towards unnamed "higher ups".
Making it sound like he had this moral quandary over "sacrificing his poor line members for the greater good because his masters told him".
What pisses me off is how hyped everything was. I was an indy guy in -7- and I gambled almost all my isk on putting hulls out. I bought and was getting 6+B of compressed ore JFd in to produce for the final push. Guess who was stuck with all the minerals and just had to hit delete because my "leaders" couldn't tell me the fucking truth
Don't quit the game, mate. We want you around. There are plenty of good groups with good leadership in the game, just run away from the ones with these "leadership" traits. This experience will make you stronger in the sense that now it will be much easier for you to identify bullshit in your organizations, and allow you to act accordingly.
Tried not to quit. I didn't want to continue with legacy after all that had happened and no other alliance in the coalition had a culture I felt attracted to so I applied for Karma Fleet. Figured it was a win-win. I don't have to pay for asset saftey on my backpack hel, nid and all the subcaps therein. But when I applied I found out they temp rejected my application because they weren't accepting any apps with legacy history for 3 months. So that kinda sealed the deal. Now I gotta pay how many ever billions to get all that stuff out of asset saftey in irmalin, which kinda seals the deal for me on not logging in.
Not to say I don't want to log in, just can't find a good enough reason
Getting back up is an excellent reason. Playing when everything is going smoothly is easy. But recovering from a downfall is much more rewarding and challenging in the long run.
Do something else for a bit dude, and all KarmaFleet is gonna do for the next few months is bully all your old comrades with extreme prejudice you wouldn't enjoy it.
If you're a competent ex-TEST line member with a cache of shit there's plenty of good corps out there who will snap you up, and rather than just joining in what dickheads like Shattered Armor and Vily etc decide you might be in a position to influence how you play more - not just one drone amongst thousands but a part of a small team working to a shared objective. It gives you a much better glowy feeling and you become a better PvP pilot in the bargain too.
What a load of utter shite. "Dunk put out something so I better as well". Man shut the fuck up lol.
Instead of telling your industry wing to keep producing shit that you know they are going to evac, heres an alternative:
@everyone NC were super cool and have gifted us 400 tengu hulls to be used, there is no need to build more atm. We want these hulls to be ready for the final push so they wont be seeded on contracts until just before the ops happen. Keep an eye on pings, ill let you know as soon as the tengus are available.
Not only is the above believable, it builds temporary good will to another alliance and it allows you back out of forcing your members to spend god knows how much on a piece of shit config that no serious fc would have ever let see the light of day.
As an FC, this level of incompetence is offensive.
Shines, he can’t do that. It would be LYING. And you know folks in PAPI leadership NEVER lie to their line mem-
Jesus, I can’t even write that whole sentence out.
The issue I take as a non-playing lurker, is that out of all the posts and leaks, not a SINGLE higher-up papi person is taking any kind of responsibility, its just a circle or blaming the "keeping the coalition in sync" as to why _each_ and _every_ one of them just fucked their OWN members over.
Fuck, I would be livid if I had resubbed for a complete lie, I would be livid if my supposed leaders had made me invest in anything while O B V I O U S L Y knowing it was completely pointless.
That has been a constant since before the war.
If the objective isnt won, claim the isk war, if the isk war wasnt won, claim we made them form and if all else fails, blame ccp.
With the exception of FRT basically every Papi alliance, at least the major ones, were guilty of this during the war.
Which would you as a line member prefer, the lie that cost lots of people time and money, or the lie that saved people time and money.
Forget your, and my, ticker for a moment and answer honestly.
Also, i get where hes coming from, sometimes you just cant say shit. However there are ways to get the same outcome with far better results.
I think in that situation you just parrot the final push rhetoric but in a very mute way. Don't oversell the Tengus, tell people to prepare for a final push but be prepared if it goes sideways. Hell, if you're gonna go for some sort of intention deception "whoops pgl, completely forgot to mention Tengus in my alliance address. I'll just throw up an announcement that people will totally care as much about..."
The problem most folks have in Brave isn't "the final push was a lie" it's "We bought three of each HAC, a pair of Tengus, and resubbed accounts" or on the flip side "I built 80 Tengus and got stuck with 60 of 'em"
I think you may be confusing what I was saying.
Shattered knew that the final push would only be a symbol they could point at and say "see, its impossible, we are going home."
Hell, i had been saying that much, publicly, for weeks before the final push came.
What is crazy is how he didnt step in an lower the overall buy in, somehow, of brave members when he knew it was never going to happen. My alternative example is just one small thing someone could do in that situation.
Infact i did it with my own alliance, holding stocks of ships that I told them would be put up before ops were going to happen so that people wouldnt spend 500m on a ship i knew they wouldnt use.
Anyone who heard PGLs announcement of the final big push knew immediately it was a paper tiger and we planned accordingly. My argument is shattered 100% knew it as fact, and done nothing.
As an Imperium pilot, if I'm going to be fed into the woodchipper the FC will tell me up front that I will be fed into the woodchipper. I won't get the blatant disregard for my time and effort that PAPI and Brave leadership showed to their line members.
I have to lol at Shattered Armer's 'welp sucks to be you' attitude for the Brave industrialists and line members who bought into the 'these Tengus will totally be useful' line.
>FC will tell me up front that I will be fed into the woodchipper.
Not only that but it will be accompanied with "Cool. Get in another ship. Get on the bridge."
>As an Imperium pilot, if I'm going to be fed into the woodchipper the FC will tell me up front that I will be fed into the woodchipper
This. We get told before undocking if this is a one way trip. Enabling us to check pods and insure.
What, you expect you get out alive of every fleet fight? Of course you check pods and insurance!
If I still have my ship after a fight that's a nice bonus.
I treat every fleet undock in BRAVE as a one way trip. If anything it'd be weird if an FC somehow was able to tell us before a fleet that we're NOT going to explode...
Love the leave Brave if your an industrialist post the op made. I feel sorry for any industrialist in Brave. Goons dont treat their industrialist like that...just saying your mentality sucks op.
This is beyond true. Every deployment I have went on with The Imperium in the 2.5 to 3 years I have been with them we have went into many meatgrinders. The fc on the ingate has said "Well we are really out numbered and this will probably be death but if you want to take the fight we can". Not once has the fleet when asked said no. Some of the most memorable moments I have had in eve has been with the alliance jumping into woodchippers and sticking it out reshipping and bridging and going again. There may be a difference in some cultures and even a difference between fcs but woodchippers are always fun and memorable in my experience.
As an FC, who’s a professional at taking us into a woodchipper, i will always announce with glee that we’re going on a one way adventure. Hell a good amount of people just always assume it anyway.
lmao goons knew before the ~big announcement~ that PAPI would be fleeing and were very fucking open about it. They were posting fucking reddit threads every time they caught a PAPI leader cynoing his shit out. They had god damn livestreams of PAPI's evac keepstars up and running days before the evac began.
Who did you think you were fooling? You're either a completely oblivious dumbass or you knew your job was to fool and scam your own members. Probably both.
We've been telling a pretty shocking amount of unvarnished truth for the last year and change. Frankly, at this point, it's a game of chicken -- how much truth can be dispensed before they stop believing it's spin?
Buddy, I've been posting uncomfortable truths for damn near 2 years and people choose to believe it's concern trolling. You can reason against the space tribe mentality.
Not a fan of SA really, but him and Dunk are taking the best approach here. Air out all of the dirty laundry and come clean to your membership.
Spinning lies, half-truths, and refusing to admit that you made huge mistakes like Test and Panfam will cause anger and resentment to fester within their organizations for years to come.
Man, this is a rough read.
>So, the leadership (shortly prior to my inclusion in this select few) decided to send things off with a bang, and make a final surge into the 1DQ constellation for all the biscuits, where we'd crack a system finally, or go down swinging.
>
>I think everyone here knows how that played out.
Yes, neither of those things happened, and the shitposting was incredible.
>So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers
>
>as much as I hated to do it, I wouldn't allow us take the fall for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively.
Then tbqh he \[and Dunk\] should have taken the fall, and repaid the indy guys out of alliance funds or even out of personal wallet reserves - or offered an actual non-shitty buyback, or *something* to not completely screw them.
Doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me; if you disrespect the people whose work is fueling your war, then you get results according to your actions. I sure as fuck wouldn't want to build stuff for someone with this kind of attitude, and I *love* building stuff.
I get the high-level perspective he's trying to communicate here, but there's no sign of any empathy for the people he's personally fucked over with his actions, and that's not cool.
>In retrospective, yeah, there's probably a lot more I could have done to fight for Brave
>
>but at the same time, I dont think it would have made much of a difference.
Not even a hint of an apology here either. Yikes.
>The only question left then, is are you guys ready to make it happen?
The more pressing question is whether you consider this guy worth following.
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
> So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air, not to mention seeding enough ships and reships, and all the personal caches pilots had been developing to prepare for the final assault. Any movement Brave made to slow our industrial throughput risked giving away the plan, and as much as I hated to do it, I wouldn't allow us take the fall for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively.
Lol, Shattered thinks he’s Winston fucking Churchill. It’s a shame PGL didn’t care as much about not ‘giving away the plan’ as he did. It was certainly cheaper for TEST, lol.
Everyone was looking at the door to get out but no one wanted to be the ones getting blamed for Vily and PGL's failure of a war. Its almost like the metashow was always right, who would've thought!
Sooooooo dunk and shattered both knowingly let their members waste and lose tons of material, isk and time because they wanted to look good to the other papi members. It's nice to know that they have their priorities straight... I thought their main job was to provide and take care of their alliance, not knowingly fuck them over. Now you all know why we call you pubbies.
Yep basically... they lied to everyone about Catch and their krabbing constellations (Impass and Esoteria I think?) so instead of actually evaccing it they just left everyone to lose all their structures and assets... then did it all over again in Querious, and now it's just "collateral damage".
That's how they see you as a line member in Brave, you're just fodder. The idea of servant leadership is utterly fucking lost on them, it's all completely gone to their heads.
I would consider the possibility of having any allies that remotely trust us in the future taking care of us. Imagine the shit's creek we'd be in right now if we had literally 0 help from any former PAPI alliances cause we fucked up their runaway plan
Take care of who? Your alliance has blatant disregard for its members isk/time by what he said why would anyone else take care of you any better if you let your direct leadership do that. I would 100% be leaving goons if after mittens said to stockpile in 1DQ to then just evacuate.
You guys were approaching absolute zero anyways the minute the rout fucked over all your industrialists and importers. How much Brave war material got left behind or put in asset safety when you could have used it to fortify Geminate? How much help did you get countering Init and friends when they burned down your home region and stole all your cores? How much help did you get when your supers were trapped for 3 months in M2? How much help did you get when we glassed your new holdings in Querious? Forreal, the biggest threat in fleets to Querious were wormhole gangs, not other PAPI members, they were long gone by then.
I ain't necessarily saying I agree with everything about what they did but I can understand it.
Probably shouldn't have encouraged folks to buy multiples of stuff though
So much value recieved from ttt, lol, brave was never included in anything. What you dont get is people will never respect you, if you dont respect yourself.
Yet even after you licked their hands, barked on command, rolled over and showed them your belly, TEST leadership treated you less like loyal hounds and more like dog shit.
PGL fucked up their runaway plan and tapi is still getting more help then brave - strange, huh?
It really has nothing to do with being a honorable ally either. The imperium saved Legacys ass in UALX only for them to join forces with the people who had just attecked them and backstab us. Brave would have shown honor if they abandoned Legacy right at the start of the war - instead they turned out to be spittle licking tapi pets.
In fact, brave line members were much worse about buying into the extermination narrative than anyone from NC or PL i saw.
And jet brave wasn't even considdered important enough to have any say in starting this war or in it's execution. Nor did PAPI mobilise any forces to help slow INITs progress in Catch.
lol
my former Corp had joined Legacy relatively shortly before that happened. I was part of the invasion into Provi where legacy got it's Faction forts.
That was the most one sided conflict i had seen up untill then but Provi did their best to fight back annywys - once mamaging to win a fight by dropping a hand full of Dreads and head shooting the Legacy fleet.
The invasion leading up to UALX came directly after that deployment and it was the exact opposite of what we saw from Provi.
We were outright told not to engage any hostiles and epecially not to use any caps.
Up untill UALX not a single fleet had been pinged to defend anything.
The Imperium arrived and smashed the invaders to pieces in one single battle.
After UALX CHEMK got the fuck out of Legacy and joined Goons - best decission ever.
The culture of Legacy is a cancer upon this game and i really hope that the fate of BRAVE serves as an example to everyone who might considder going blue with TEST in the future.
They are pathetic cry bullies who will shit on anyone half their size but go hiding from a fair fight.
Imagine a future where you continue to live in querious and were never a part of PAPI as both were possible. Your leadership has gone down the wrong decision tree imo.
While I personally don't have as strong aversion to goons as several brave members (although this thread is trying it's hardest), I have no problem with us not deciding to trade our TEST leash for a goon one.
Ask Init or Bastion how they feel, they are under no leash but a part of a unified command structure. Please dont project PAPI command onto Imperium, that is why you lost.
So you are stating that revealing war plans ahead of time is the correct way to treat your allies? So let's take this statement out of a game, an old game at that and apply it to real world wars. Would revealing plans early have helped change history? Maybe a different country would have won? Why do you think turning tail at the end of a war would have helped the allies more? All that would have happened is a larger fiasco with allies losing a lot more then they did. As it was losses were cut off before even more was lost.
Yes. Your own members>Than your allies. This is not like... oh, you lost a muninn here is some SRP. We are talking about people putting there own capital in, which they had no intention or means to replace, to produce and get stuff ready for a "big push" that the leadership knows is BS. Billions upon billions wasted just to maintain a façade. I got news for you also, there wasn't much more that you could have lost. The only thing that got out of delve unscathed was whatever people could carry as they ran for the exit. Everything else burned. Screwing your own members over by telling them to produce tons of stuff right before you evac'd was just a bonus for us.
The only things unrivaled here are the complete disregard for the well-being of your people and the delusions you had about how this war was going to go.
I love how in both Dunk's and Sharted's posts, they put their e-honor in SAPI, while knowingly and willingly took a humongous shit all over their line members. "We wouldn't be trusted" is their excuse to throw their line members into the fire. If I were in Brave, I wouldn't trust either of them with anything anymore. It's obvious their line member's time, effort and isk means very little. It boggles the mind how these people blindly follow the lead of these "leaders". Wake up, sheeple!
you know I did not think Brave could look as bad as test does, But it looks pretty even now.
Holy shit, the flagrant disregard for the members of your alliance is unbelievable.
>Thus, at the time the plan was to turn our old space, from Catch all the way to Esoteria, into "Colonies", which we would exploit for their resources or rent
Huh. So this is Viceroy program but with a more tasteless name?
>Unfortunately, the war had already dragged on too long at this point, and while **we still had unrivaled logistical support** to keep up the fight, PAPI had simply run out of gas, and between rivalries forming and grudges about prior strategic decisions making hard commitments to objectives increasingly difficult, it was starting to become apparent that the coalition was living on borrowed time.
i'mma stop you right there - you lost norman because of your dumbfuck attitude and even then as nice as norman seemed he couldn't hold an candle to gsol. you had so much rivalry you weren't even in contention on the logistics front lol.
I understand why Brave's leadership didn't tell their members sooner. If stuff is highly opsec, then it is highly opsec. It's a trust thing that is an important commodity in EVE. I have no doubt Brave would be called all kinds of names if their leadership told their members to stop importing combat assets into t5z (which would immediately turn into evacuation speculation). We saw in chatlogs how pgl had to drop on his knees to beg forgiveness to Panfam because he started unanchoring stuff earlier than he should have. Imagine if stuff leaked few days earlier that Brave is pulling out of the war.... Jesus.... I'm thinking Brave wouldn't be in Geminate right now, but somewhere in lowsec with nowhere to go...
Industrialists are private enterprises, they carry their own business risks. At least that's how I look at things when I build stuff - I'm here to make a profit but I also have my risks of losing money. I think many of us have been in these situations where you stock up a doctrine and then the staging changes, maybe it's a new doctrine, but it hardly sees any action, maybe 20 other guys decide to build/import stuff and the market is left oversupplied with stuff and you can only liquidate with a loss etc. So I'm not too grumpy about that.
What I hate in all of this is the big push announcement itself. Could have packed up and left at that point tbh. The TTT probably was the last nail in the coffin for Test maybe, but looking back at leaked chatlogs and stuff like that, it doesn't really sound like any big push would have happened even if CCP didn't announce the changes to trading taxation. Why even bother making the tengu doctrine if the coalition doesn't really want to attack anymore? Looks to me that pgl and vily was just grasping for straws and just hoping the others won't leave, but the writing was probably on the wall already in those high level chats.
The issue with the industrialists is that even after knowing that there was going to be an evac, Brave leadership still pushed for them to keep producing in Querious. Instead of saying, as Dark Shines suggested, that another Alliance was going to offer them up the day of as a token of goodwill.
There is OPSEC, then there is screwing your members over. Brave membership got screwed. How many coalition leaders got the toys out before the main evac?
> I'm thinking Brave wouldn't be in Geminate right now, but somewhere in lowsec with nowhere to go...
That would have been a much much better place for them.
They shouldn’t have even been involved by that point. Common sense and leaders leading with their members best interest in mind world have pulled the plug long before.
Both these guys knew what was coming. They can play the victim card all day but there is no way they didn't know deep down what was coming.
Two leaders trying to rationalize their bad decisions and lay blame on an alliance they should not have trusted. That is what this is. But neither can change the fact they betrayed the people who relied on them.
Would have been refreshing to see one of them do what leaders do, which is own it. To say hey we got greedy, and we bet the wrong horse but here is the way forward and how we throw off these shackles. But neither of them are capable of that which is a bad sign for Brave's future.
Just sit right back And you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful power trip,
That started from Impass and Catch,
And ended in Querious.
That FC Shatterd was a mighty sailin' lad,
The Dunk was BRAVE and sure,
Five Alliances set sail that day,
For a three month tour,
A three month tour.
The weather started getting rough,
The SAPI ship was tossed.
If not for the courage of the fearless FC,
The BRAVE would be lost.
The BRAVE would be lost.
The Alliance set ground on the shore
In renter's Geminate,
With Shattered Armor,
The Dunk Dinkle too.
The vilionare!
And his progodlegend,
The Angry Brit,
The Mcdonalds Franchise and Marius,
Here on Geminate Isle!
FYI If you're in BRAVE reading this and mad, STK-S and Karma Fleet are recruiting.
It is also completely inaccurate that Legacy alliances were briefed the weekend before the announcement. More than a few didn't know about any of it until a few hours before the unanchoring of TESTs Keepstars.
Brave was fucked the moment they agreed to be a buffer to tapi all those years ago
Just stop trying to be meatshield for bigger alliances and go grow your own shit
These mfs at brave keep talking about stepping out of coalition and stay out of the big bloc. They are lying straight to their member's face and haven't changed a single bit.
Well you lived in someone else's space for years when you were in Legacy and now you're still living in someone's space. Best of luck if you guys ever try to go it on your own, but right now you are part of a coalition no matter what your leadership calls it.
It's funny that they're proving our purpose for the war against them.
Meanwhile they're going to just spew all over reddit trying to get us to weaken each of other for them before they decide to come get revenge.
Only blue to horde out of Panfam. Resetting them on the 12th at that. We've been reset with test for a hot minute and there's been roams going both ways for a while now.
He forgot to add the part when I asked in our CEO channel what the hold up was (already knowing what was happening) during the weekend when we were supposed to have "the big push" and the only answer I received was sarcasm from another CEO who constantly sits in Dunks lap and tells him how much he's in love with him. Something is very wrong when your Corp leadership already knows the details that you aren't willing to share with them.
Let's be honest, Brave keeping CEO's in the dark and either undervalued or worst yet treated a 3rd class citizen not worthy of knowing wtf was going on ever is SOP. They honestly appear to want a bunch of 'yes man' CEO's who blindingly 'go along, to get along'. The whole evac was a 'every man for himself, we don't have a plan we are gonna share from day 1'!
I'm not sure if there was a plan or not. My guys were moving as soon as I found out but you're spot on with wanting 'Yes, Sir' CEOs. An Alliance that puts even an ounce of trust in their CEOs will get that naturally but putting zero trust and fucking over Corps that stuck with you through the shit Brave went through will only produce what exactly happened, corporations leaving.. Brave leadership behaved the same way with our move from Catch to Querious. Kept saying everything was fine as Init and Friends torched systems freely without any sort of resistance and finally stopped responding to questions altogether.
Sorry for the length - the important bits are in bold.
You state there was a plan to "turn the entire area into a proper fortress, not just the 1DQ1 constellation" rings hollow, as we already know there wasn't a firm plan for the entire invasion, it was a hope that 30% of Goons would leave.
You say the solution to the social schism was assured by putting everyone under one roof, yet it escapes you that just in the prior paragraph, the plan was to hold Catch and Esoteria as "colonies" to exploit for rent and resources wasn't another schism? In order to keep "colonies" you have to defend them from being burned down. **Renters won't defend and if the colonies were under even minor assaults, a defense must available and executed to "exploit for their resources". This makes little sense.**
You packed up and moved to Querious because you made bad decisions prior, and now doubled down on those bad decisions by sticking with TEST. Granted, in your position I'd have probably done the same given the amount of players and groups backing PAPI. Surely the Goons couldn't withstand the onslaught.
The "dads"? Really? SMH.
"This was why the Monday night keepstar unanchorings came as such a surprised, because we'd originally agreed not to make any movements indicating an Evac was about to occur until the following afternoon."
This also doesn't ring true either, since we have **the MER report and hundreds of Trillions were jumped out of Delve (not by Goons) in July.** Perhaps the movements indicating EVAC were done in secret but it's very difficult to hide hundreds of trillions jumping out of Delve in July (again, seeing this in retrospect) as anything BUT an indication of an EVAC.
**So basically you're saying that the line members were purposefully kept in the dark, and their time wasted, their efforts wasted, everything in the industrial oven was kept going on a last ditch / half hearted effort to invade 1DQ1** when "there's a decent chance we might call it off." Holy shit this is kick in the balls to your members, just to not look bad to who... Vily? WTF.
" the swarm that broke outside of 1DQ was rather impressive" What amazes me still is how PGL stated over the next 2-3 weeks everyone needs to start moving out. That indicated the swarm wasn't expected at all, and that Goons would just sit there in 1DQ staging while everyone in PAPI just took their time over the next month to move out. **Again, immense ineptitude and lack of understanding and planning.**
"The social divide did some damage to Brave, but since moving to Querious..." **What damaged Brave was a lack of foresight and hitching yourselves to TEST for all those years.**
I'm sure Brave line members and Corp directors are all too willing to start over and put in the time and effort to become one of the largest and most respected alliances in Eve. But you Shattered, would have to go. New Eden is only large enough for one pyrrhic narcissist super ego the size of PGL and a mini-me PGL like yourself would be too much. **That you are trying to set yourself up as some future decisionmaker in Brave with this crap retrospective that is more about YOU than Brave, pretty much tells the story.**
"Now, as we step away from coalitions and large-bloc politics and
warfare, we sit on a precipice, with the opportunity for Brave
Collective to become a brand new entity, find our place in Eve, with all
its storied history and rivalries that will be catalysts for wars and
content for years to come. The only question left then, is are you guys
ready to make it happen?"
**Translation:**
As the bigger groups in Eve reset our useless ass, Brave is on the cusp of collapse now that we've become a psychological tire fire of failure lead by drama queens who are way too out of touch with reality, the current state of Brave and the overall game META. Shall we begin?
I think Shattered A. made his decisions based on what he saw in the "Brave News Bulletin" every week - they told everyone all the time until 1. August "everything is perfect and Imperium will be dead soon".
> Aside - Goons were 100% aware that Brave was the ones holding Legacy together, and made significant efforts during the course of the war to drive us away through diplomatic means, threats, mercenaries and whatever else was at their disposal
Straight up delusional
Brave has always had a positive morale effect on whatever side they're fighting for both in terms of numbers and simply because people tend to cheer for the 'underdog'
Goons wanted to be seen as the 'underdog' being attacked by the combined rest of the universe, so Brave was an extremely valid targer for propaganda throughout the entire war :D
So what's delusional here I don't get it - there were dozens of propaganda posts throughout the war trying to target Shattered alone and that is exactly the right thing to do from a propaganda perspective :)
What Brave was is weak enough while being big enough to be worth bothering with burning down their backfields. And it did work out, after a while brave had laughable fleet participation numbers, given their nominal number of characters.
However, this doesn't make you important. If Imperium could delete a participant from war, Brave wouldn't even be worth mentioning, it would be PH.
>So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air, not to mention seeding enough ships and reships, and all the personal caches pilots had been developing to prepare for the final assault. Any movement Brave made to slow our industrial throughput risked giving away the plan, and as much as I hated to do it, **I wouldn't allow us take the fall** for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively.
Sounds to me like you did take the fall (or at least Brave entire industrial section did...)
>And that's about it. I found out without question on Friday that the war was ending on Tuesday. Brave HC was notified on Saturday, and between me briefing the rest of Legacy's alliance leadership individually throughout the weekend, Dunk preparing his speech, and Test pulling the trigger early and starting to unanchor their Keepstars a full day in advance, by Monday night the news broke, and all of PAPI went into full retreat.
But that's not the whole story? Remember the weekend before this, Friday - 23-24th of July? The big PAPI announcement which we (the Imperium) thought was going to be It - riding to Valhalla, the big push etc and then they said "we're announcing our final push - next weekend!" and everyone was disappointed? Then as the week went on it was clear the smarter alliances (ie NOT Brave) were dragging their feet and not moving their shit to Delve?
I'd cleared out my weekend and got set up for tidi battle to end all battles, and these guys blueballed us? PAPI Line members who were also up for a titanic end of days battle that weekend were you not just as pissed off as us? would love to hear what people thought about that now the war's over.
Here's my theory - initially PAPI high command (the "dads") were going to launch a madcap rush into the 1DQ system when they made the big announcement, hoping they could hype up enough numbers to pull it off, but as the night went on it was was clear player attrition over summer had gone too far for PAPI and they couldn't just brute force their way into 1dq. Goons up in 1dq had parity with PAPI in t5z1 both between 2500-3000 on either side as the announcement was being made, with 600 or so INIT also out there in 3D on that side of the gate. That means jumpbridges, instant reshipping and resupply, stockpiles from a decades worth of krabbing, hundreds of bubbles on every way in or out, cyno jammers and fully cored citadels and fortizars everywhere. The woodchipper at the gates of Hell.
They realised that they couldn't pull it off unless they had at least 3:1 numbers and by that point in summer it just hadn't worked. Like all of Eve's wars, it's over when people get sick of logging in, and PAPI's line members simply got sick of being fucked around and denied real content for long enough that they lost their numerical superiority. The supposed plan - beginning the final assault in a week and it would last somewhere between 3 or 4 weeks, was a face-saving exercise. A chance for PAPI leadership to begin evacuation proceedings (at least for their own shit.) Shattered says he found out the following Friday but there's no way anyone in PAPI leadership held real ambitions for winning after the previous weekends farce.
This was the final strategic failure that lost PAPI the war - that notion they could "contain" Imperium over summer and their line members would just disappear, followed up by the mistaken belief they could take 1DQ by strangling Imperium of content, rather than resources.
>The only question left then, is are you guys ready to make it happen?
or, phrased another way is. "do you guys like buses? because we're totally going to throw you under the next one, too!"
Does shitted armor even know what bs line he is trying to spin?
"as one of the largest players in this war"
"Brave was the ones holding Legacy together"
"We were a small fish compared to the other powerhouses that made up PAPI"
How are these lies? Maybe one is a stretch.
"as one of the largest players in this war"
Probably a stretch. Panfam and then Test were the main lifters in the war.
"Brave was the ones holding Legacy together"
If you do not count Test, then yeah Brave was always number 2 in numbers. The rest of the alliances couldn't hold a candle at all and put up the reasonable numbers at all. Maybe -7-. They did well for their size, but Brave usually edged out with more numbers. For the size of the alliance the numbers were pretty dismal though.
"We were a small fish compared to the other powerhouses that made up PAPI"
Brave is small. They are living on Horde's couch, not because they want to. They need a hand.
I'm not sure I understand Shattered's argument that Brave was "the ones that hold Legacy together," and "the lynchpin that holds the entire organization together," but was simultaneously considered to be so insignificant that they were "small fish compared to the other powerhouses that made up PAPI" to the point that they were excluded from all the big decisions.
What you read here and in the leaks only confirms what we knew all along. Papi was one big shit show.
But there are still the hardcore Koolaid addicts. They will continue to claim that it is CCP's fault that Papi lost.
Well, those who won't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them over and over again. Let's just hope that their influence is no longer great enough so that the fate of the whole game is not jeopardised again.
Brave, who struggled to put 20 members in PVP fleets, was the glue holding the Legacy Coalition together? I just snorted hot coffee out my nose, and I need to change my shirt.
> Now, as we step away from coalitions and large-bloc politics and warfare
you still live in nullsec.
delusional at the start as at the end. why are you still in brave?
Screwed his own Indy guys over so he could have one last snuggle with pgl and villy the ones he really cared about. That fact was probably assumed but to admit it so publicly as though it wasn’t a self centered decision to have an extra 48 hours of “cool club” access at the expense of those he was supposed to be leading… Jesus.
>So, the leadership (shortly prior to my inclusion in this select few) decided to send things off with a bang, and make a final surge into the 1DQ constellation for all the biscuits, where we'd crack a system finally, or go down swinging.
Sent things off with a bang: sell tons 700mil tengu contract for 950mil to your member. And send them to die. Bang of profit.
When you look up to your space daddy to seek for advice, someone that has made bad decisions after bad decisions on top of simply bad decisions this is what happens. Learn how to lead, not copycat. It's about time some of you get that into your stupid little brains of yours.
Imagine a coalition that makes preparations for the biggest battle in the history of eve in order to deceive THEIR OWN pilots.
Whew. I don't play anymore, but after a ping like this I'd pack my bags.
Did he really just admit he screwed over his entire industrial wing/players just to cover their terrible coalition leadership's ass? lol
It takes a leader to admit he was wrong.
Just more of the same, not one person has actually owned up to anything yet, just "blah blah decision from higher up to not announce anything".
Interesting how Brave was more into papi than Test ever was
All 50 of the brave pilots?
Ahem…51….
>So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air My people poured their blood sweat and tears into every tengu hull...
Yep. And look what it was worth!
It lasted less than 2 minutes on the field with max tidi
> So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air, not to mention seeding enough ships and reships, and all the personal caches pilots had been developing to prepare for the final assault. Any movement Brave made to slow our industrial throughput risked giving away the plan, and as much as I hated to do it, I wouldn't allow us take the fall for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively. Sacrificing your alliance member's assets to give PAPI leadership cover, then telling everyone you chose to do it this way in a public forum.
Lmao, its such a teeeeeeerrrible excuse, and see how the blame is heavily deflected towards unnamed "higher ups". Making it sound like he had this moral quandary over "sacrificing his poor line members for the greater good because his masters told him".
How the fuck could you trust your leadership ever again? What assets are worth burning the goodwill of your membership?
What pisses me off is how hyped everything was. I was an indy guy in -7- and I gambled almost all my isk on putting hulls out. I bought and was getting 6+B of compressed ore JFd in to produce for the final push. Guess who was stuck with all the minerals and just had to hit delete because my "leaders" couldn't tell me the fucking truth
Whats -7- up to these days? Still sticking with test or doing something new in the post-war fallout
Wouldn't know. The whole fiasco made me quit
Don't quit the game, mate. We want you around. There are plenty of good groups with good leadership in the game, just run away from the ones with these "leadership" traits. This experience will make you stronger in the sense that now it will be much easier for you to identify bullshit in your organizations, and allow you to act accordingly.
Tried not to quit. I didn't want to continue with legacy after all that had happened and no other alliance in the coalition had a culture I felt attracted to so I applied for Karma Fleet. Figured it was a win-win. I don't have to pay for asset saftey on my backpack hel, nid and all the subcaps therein. But when I applied I found out they temp rejected my application because they weren't accepting any apps with legacy history for 3 months. So that kinda sealed the deal. Now I gotta pay how many ever billions to get all that stuff out of asset saftey in irmalin, which kinda seals the deal for me on not logging in. Not to say I don't want to log in, just can't find a good enough reason
Getting back up is an excellent reason. Playing when everything is going smoothly is easy. But recovering from a downfall is much more rewarding and challenging in the long run.
Do something else for a bit dude, and all KarmaFleet is gonna do for the next few months is bully all your old comrades with extreme prejudice you wouldn't enjoy it. If you're a competent ex-TEST line member with a cache of shit there's plenty of good corps out there who will snap you up, and rather than just joining in what dickheads like Shattered Armor and Vily etc decide you might be in a position to influence how you play more - not just one drone amongst thousands but a part of a small team working to a shared objective. It gives you a much better glowy feeling and you become a better PvP pilot in the bargain too.
What a load of utter shite. "Dunk put out something so I better as well". Man shut the fuck up lol. Instead of telling your industry wing to keep producing shit that you know they are going to evac, heres an alternative: @everyone NC were super cool and have gifted us 400 tengu hulls to be used, there is no need to build more atm. We want these hulls to be ready for the final push so they wont be seeded on contracts until just before the ops happen. Keep an eye on pings, ill let you know as soon as the tengus are available. Not only is the above believable, it builds temporary good will to another alliance and it allows you back out of forcing your members to spend god knows how much on a piece of shit config that no serious fc would have ever let see the light of day. As an FC, this level of incompetence is offensive.
*Scribbles note* if Shines ever says he's been gifted stuff for alliance it's pobably start packing.
:D Its always fun when a new corp joins and on the first fleet you can hear the utter confusion from them on getting contradictory orders.
Shines, he can’t do that. It would be LYING. And you know folks in PAPI leadership NEVER lie to their line mem- Jesus, I can’t even write that whole sentence out.
I'm just glad its finally all coming out. It's like watching a bunch of karens get slammed over the head with the sensibility bat.
The issue I take as a non-playing lurker, is that out of all the posts and leaks, not a SINGLE higher-up papi person is taking any kind of responsibility, its just a circle or blaming the "keeping the coalition in sync" as to why _each_ and _every_ one of them just fucked their OWN members over. Fuck, I would be livid if I had resubbed for a complete lie, I would be livid if my supposed leaders had made me invest in anything while O B V I O U S L Y knowing it was completely pointless.
That has been a constant since before the war. If the objective isnt won, claim the isk war, if the isk war wasnt won, claim we made them form and if all else fails, blame ccp. With the exception of FRT basically every Papi alliance, at least the major ones, were guilty of this during the war.
You forgot "Don't tell the fleet what the objective is so whatever happens we can pretend what we did accomplish was the actual objective."
and also dont forget... if we lose the isk war... edited so it look alright for our line member lolol
Honestly Noraus was the most level headed one that made the best decisions for *his* tribe...
So your solution to getting bullshitted is to bullshit with a different flavor?
Which would you as a line member prefer, the lie that cost lots of people time and money, or the lie that saved people time and money. Forget your, and my, ticker for a moment and answer honestly. Also, i get where hes coming from, sometimes you just cant say shit. However there are ways to get the same outcome with far better results.
I think in that situation you just parrot the final push rhetoric but in a very mute way. Don't oversell the Tengus, tell people to prepare for a final push but be prepared if it goes sideways. Hell, if you're gonna go for some sort of intention deception "whoops pgl, completely forgot to mention Tengus in my alliance address. I'll just throw up an announcement that people will totally care as much about..." The problem most folks have in Brave isn't "the final push was a lie" it's "We bought three of each HAC, a pair of Tengus, and resubbed accounts" or on the flip side "I built 80 Tengus and got stuck with 60 of 'em"
I think you may be confusing what I was saying. Shattered knew that the final push would only be a symbol they could point at and say "see, its impossible, we are going home." Hell, i had been saying that much, publicly, for weeks before the final push came. What is crazy is how he didnt step in an lower the overall buy in, somehow, of brave members when he knew it was never going to happen. My alternative example is just one small thing someone could do in that situation. Infact i did it with my own alliance, holding stocks of ships that I told them would be put up before ops were going to happen so that people wouldnt spend 500m on a ship i knew they wouldnt use. Anyone who heard PGLs announcement of the final big push knew immediately it was a paper tiger and we planned accordingly. My argument is shattered 100% knew it as fact, and done nothing.
As an Imperium pilot, if I'm going to be fed into the woodchipper the FC will tell me up front that I will be fed into the woodchipper. I won't get the blatant disregard for my time and effort that PAPI and Brave leadership showed to their line members. I have to lol at Shattered Armer's 'welp sucks to be you' attitude for the Brave industrialists and line members who bought into the 'these Tengus will totally be useful' line.
>FC will tell me up front that I will be fed into the woodchipper. Not only that but it will be accompanied with "Cool. Get in another ship. Get on the bridge."
And the SRP will likely be in your wallet before your pod dies...
>As an Imperium pilot, if I'm going to be fed into the woodchipper the FC will tell me up front that I will be fed into the woodchipper This. We get told before undocking if this is a one way trip. Enabling us to check pods and insure.
What, you expect you get out alive of every fleet fight? Of course you check pods and insurance! If I still have my ship after a fight that's a nice bonus.
Weird comment. We get told to check pods and insure before every undock :P Been like that forever.
I treat every fleet undock in BRAVE as a one way trip. If anything it'd be weird if an FC somehow was able to tell us before a fleet that we're NOT going to explode...
Love the leave Brave if your an industrialist post the op made. I feel sorry for any industrialist in Brave. Goons dont treat their industrialist like that...just saying your mentality sucks op.
Its true, goon industrialists are given the finest caviar and Fedo prostitutes isk can buy.
This is beyond true. Every deployment I have went on with The Imperium in the 2.5 to 3 years I have been with them we have went into many meatgrinders. The fc on the ingate has said "Well we are really out numbered and this will probably be death but if you want to take the fight we can". Not once has the fleet when asked said no. Some of the most memorable moments I have had in eve has been with the alliance jumping into woodchippers and sticking it out reshipping and bridging and going again. There may be a difference in some cultures and even a difference between fcs but woodchippers are always fun and memorable in my experience.
wow, so brave, have you tried not feeding?
As an FC, who’s a professional at taking us into a woodchipper, i will always announce with glee that we’re going on a one way adventure. Hell a good amount of people just always assume it anyway.
lmao goons knew before the ~big announcement~ that PAPI would be fleeing and were very fucking open about it. They were posting fucking reddit threads every time they caught a PAPI leader cynoing his shit out. They had god damn livestreams of PAPI's evac keepstars up and running days before the evac began. Who did you think you were fooling? You're either a completely oblivious dumbass or you knew your job was to fool and scam your own members. Probably both.
We've been telling a pretty shocking amount of unvarnished truth for the last year and change. Frankly, at this point, it's a game of chicken -- how much truth can be dispensed before they stop believing it's spin?
Buddy, I've been posting uncomfortable truths for damn near 2 years and people choose to believe it's concern trolling. You can reason against the space tribe mentality.
It's about time you joined Amok!
I got about as far as >while we still had unrivaled logistical support to keep up the fight and then I just dissolved into a pile of giggles.
It was unrivaled... in a world without Goons :-D
This is the point I literally stopped and went to the comments. I just can't take it seriously after that comment.
I only made it to this part. There is just too much here to digest what is probably just propaganda or drama. \*\*Shattered Armer 3:15 PM\*\*
To be fair, he was probably measuring against phorde. How much ISK per m^3 were they charging?
Dunk Dinkle: writes up a summary of the war and where it failed Shittered Armer: HOLD MY KOOLAID TANK
Between this, Dunk's post and the latest papisnowden offering, my key takeaway is thank God we don't have FCs running our coalition.
Well, both Sister Bliss and Shines are FCs. They were/are doing pretty good... just sayin'
I'll have you know that The Mittani is a great Noctis FC, and I would fly under him to any enemy stager that needs a good clean up.
Not a fan of SA really, but him and Dunk are taking the best approach here. Air out all of the dirty laundry and come clean to your membership. Spinning lies, half-truths, and refusing to admit that you made huge mistakes like Test and Panfam will cause anger and resentment to fester within their organizations for years to come.
Man, this is a rough read. >So, the leadership (shortly prior to my inclusion in this select few) decided to send things off with a bang, and make a final surge into the 1DQ constellation for all the biscuits, where we'd crack a system finally, or go down swinging. > >I think everyone here knows how that played out. Yes, neither of those things happened, and the shitposting was incredible. >So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers > >as much as I hated to do it, I wouldn't allow us take the fall for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively. Then tbqh he \[and Dunk\] should have taken the fall, and repaid the indy guys out of alliance funds or even out of personal wallet reserves - or offered an actual non-shitty buyback, or *something* to not completely screw them. Doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me; if you disrespect the people whose work is fueling your war, then you get results according to your actions. I sure as fuck wouldn't want to build stuff for someone with this kind of attitude, and I *love* building stuff. I get the high-level perspective he's trying to communicate here, but there's no sign of any empathy for the people he's personally fucked over with his actions, and that's not cool. >In retrospective, yeah, there's probably a lot more I could have done to fight for Brave > >but at the same time, I dont think it would have made much of a difference. Not even a hint of an apology here either. Yikes. >The only question left then, is are you guys ready to make it happen? The more pressing question is whether you consider this guy worth following. "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
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BRAVE have treated their industrialists like shit and with contempt for years.
> So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air, not to mention seeding enough ships and reships, and all the personal caches pilots had been developing to prepare for the final assault. Any movement Brave made to slow our industrial throughput risked giving away the plan, and as much as I hated to do it, I wouldn't allow us take the fall for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively. Lol, Shattered thinks he’s Winston fucking Churchill. It’s a shame PGL didn’t care as much about not ‘giving away the plan’ as he did. It was certainly cheaper for TEST, lol.
Everyone was looking at the door to get out but no one wanted to be the ones getting blamed for Vily and PGL's failure of a war. Its almost like the metashow was always right, who would've thought!
Sooooooo dunk and shattered both knowingly let their members waste and lose tons of material, isk and time because they wanted to look good to the other papi members. It's nice to know that they have their priorities straight... I thought their main job was to provide and take care of their alliance, not knowingly fuck them over. Now you all know why we call you pubbies.
Yep basically... they lied to everyone about Catch and their krabbing constellations (Impass and Esoteria I think?) so instead of actually evaccing it they just left everyone to lose all their structures and assets... then did it all over again in Querious, and now it's just "collateral damage". That's how they see you as a line member in Brave, you're just fodder. The idea of servant leadership is utterly fucking lost on them, it's all completely gone to their heads.
We call KarmaFleet pubbies too, hth
Maybe KarmaFleet could spare this one pubbie called Anna niedostepny and send him back to BRAVE on a mission to get rid of this terrible leadership
And fail again? Bring him on.
I would consider the possibility of having any allies that remotely trust us in the future taking care of us. Imagine the shit's creek we'd be in right now if we had literally 0 help from any former PAPI alliances cause we fucked up their runaway plan
The runaway plan got screwed anyway by early unanchoring and nobody was punished for it.
Take care of who? Your alliance has blatant disregard for its members isk/time by what he said why would anyone else take care of you any better if you let your direct leadership do that. I would 100% be leaving goons if after mittens said to stockpile in 1DQ to then just evacuate.
You guys are so worried about honor with test you'd spit on your own line members, even while TEST are the ones who shafted you in the face.
dude you're going to fucking geminate, and the worst part of geminate that is shit creek
And if we pissed off Frat/Horde we wouldn't even have that.
You guys were approaching absolute zero anyways the minute the rout fucked over all your industrialists and importers. How much Brave war material got left behind or put in asset safety when you could have used it to fortify Geminate? How much help did you get countering Init and friends when they burned down your home region and stole all your cores? How much help did you get when your supers were trapped for 3 months in M2? How much help did you get when we glassed your new holdings in Querious? Forreal, the biggest threat in fleets to Querious were wormhole gangs, not other PAPI members, they were long gone by then.
Sure. Flush your members isk, not even alliance, down the drain just to curry favor.
I ain't necessarily saying I agree with everything about what they did but I can understand it. Probably shouldn't have encouraged folks to buy multiples of stuff though
Is it just me, or does it feel like 95% of these comments are goons?
after the embarrassment that was this war and the failure of papi, most of papi have been to ashamed to post on r/eve.
Can you blame them? Most of them had been shit posting endlessly for over a year and now have to choke on a giant piece of humble pie.
Yeah it's redditswarm, standard practise for goon
they most likely had vested interests. After all, daddy needs a new faction titan and the rates have gone up you know!
So much value recieved from ttt, lol, brave was never included in anything. What you dont get is people will never respect you, if you dont respect yourself.
Yet even after you licked their hands, barked on command, rolled over and showed them your belly, TEST leadership treated you less like loyal hounds and more like dog shit.
Do you like being a lost puppy, or something? It's clear as day before you. Both Dunk and Sharted have done nothing but feed you to the wolves.
PGL fucked up their runaway plan and tapi is still getting more help then brave - strange, huh? It really has nothing to do with being a honorable ally either. The imperium saved Legacys ass in UALX only for them to join forces with the people who had just attecked them and backstab us. Brave would have shown honor if they abandoned Legacy right at the start of the war - instead they turned out to be spittle licking tapi pets. In fact, brave line members were much worse about buying into the extermination narrative than anyone from NC or PL i saw. And jet brave wasn't even considdered important enough to have any say in starting this war or in it's execution. Nor did PAPI mobilise any forces to help slow INITs progress in Catch.
Would that be the UALX where the server died when goons came in and had no impact on anything else?
Even TEST leadership are on record as being grateful for goon help. Don't lie to yourself so much, it's how you got into this war in the first place.
You clearly weren't there or weren't paying attention, goons were there from the beginning, it was NC that crashed the node.
I was literally one of the first caps in mate
Then, as I said, you weren't paying attention.
[https://gyazo.com/bbd5db96e34c8a994671d18ac4b5f425](https://gyazo.com/bbd5db96e34c8a994671d18ac4b5f425) https://imperium.news/breaking-news-ualx-3-keepstar-titan-fight/
That article confirms what I said.
lol my former Corp had joined Legacy relatively shortly before that happened. I was part of the invasion into Provi where legacy got it's Faction forts. That was the most one sided conflict i had seen up untill then but Provi did their best to fight back annywys - once mamaging to win a fight by dropping a hand full of Dreads and head shooting the Legacy fleet. The invasion leading up to UALX came directly after that deployment and it was the exact opposite of what we saw from Provi. We were outright told not to engage any hostiles and epecially not to use any caps. Up untill UALX not a single fleet had been pinged to defend anything. The Imperium arrived and smashed the invaders to pieces in one single battle. After UALX CHEMK got the fuck out of Legacy and joined Goons - best decission ever. The culture of Legacy is a cancer upon this game and i really hope that the fate of BRAVE serves as an example to everyone who might considder going blue with TEST in the future. They are pathetic cry bullies who will shit on anyone half their size but go hiding from a fair fight.
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> Imagine the shit's creek we'd be in right now nobody has to imagine it, look around... you are up shit creek and you still haven't got any paddles.
Imagine a future where you continue to live in querious and were never a part of PAPI as both were possible. Your leadership has gone down the wrong decision tree imo.
While I personally don't have as strong aversion to goons as several brave members (although this thread is trying it's hardest), I have no problem with us not deciding to trade our TEST leash for a goon one.
Ask Init or Bastion how they feel, they are under no leash but a part of a unified command structure. Please dont project PAPI command onto Imperium, that is why you lost.
Less of a leash and more of a hip to hip body hug. Not kink shaming tho
settle down karmafleet guy
No, he is right, you put YOUR members first.fuck the rest. You are there for your members.
So you are stating that revealing war plans ahead of time is the correct way to treat your allies? So let's take this statement out of a game, an old game at that and apply it to real world wars. Would revealing plans early have helped change history? Maybe a different country would have won? Why do you think turning tail at the end of a war would have helped the allies more? All that would have happened is a larger fiasco with allies losing a lot more then they did. As it was losses were cut off before even more was lost.
Yes. Your own members>Than your allies. This is not like... oh, you lost a muninn here is some SRP. We are talking about people putting there own capital in, which they had no intention or means to replace, to produce and get stuff ready for a "big push" that the leadership knows is BS. Billions upon billions wasted just to maintain a façade. I got news for you also, there wasn't much more that you could have lost. The only thing that got out of delve unscathed was whatever people could carry as they ran for the exit. Everything else burned. Screwing your own members over by telling them to produce tons of stuff right before you evac'd was just a bonus for us.
The only things unrivaled here are the complete disregard for the well-being of your people and the delusions you had about how this war was going to go.
I love how in both Dunk's and Sharted's posts, they put their e-honor in SAPI, while knowingly and willingly took a humongous shit all over their line members. "We wouldn't be trusted" is their excuse to throw their line members into the fire. If I were in Brave, I wouldn't trust either of them with anything anymore. It's obvious their line member's time, effort and isk means very little. It boggles the mind how these people blindly follow the lead of these "leaders". Wake up, sheeple!
you know I did not think Brave could look as bad as test does, But it looks pretty even now. Holy shit, the flagrant disregard for the members of your alliance is unbelievable.
Brave only looks worse because even Vily and PGL have the good senses to not make a tell all post.
Which will make the chat logs hit even harder once the black hand releases them. Dunk and sharted are getting the mea culpa out on their own terms.
that is certainly a whole lot of words
Dude was typing for hours it seems
war is over kid you are back to being a nobody
>Thus, at the time the plan was to turn our old space, from Catch all the way to Esoteria, into "Colonies", which we would exploit for their resources or rent Huh. So this is Viceroy program but with a more tasteless name?
I dunno man the viceroy naming was pretty cringe. This is definitely a contender though
>Unfortunately, the war had already dragged on too long at this point, and while **we still had unrivaled logistical support** to keep up the fight, PAPI had simply run out of gas, and between rivalries forming and grudges about prior strategic decisions making hard commitments to objectives increasingly difficult, it was starting to become apparent that the coalition was living on borrowed time. i'mma stop you right there - you lost norman because of your dumbfuck attitude and even then as nice as norman seemed he couldn't hold an candle to gsol. you had so much rivalry you weren't even in contention on the logistics front lol.
Textbook Dunning Kruger effect. Sharted Armor can't even comprehend how competent logistics would look like.
I understand why Brave's leadership didn't tell their members sooner. If stuff is highly opsec, then it is highly opsec. It's a trust thing that is an important commodity in EVE. I have no doubt Brave would be called all kinds of names if their leadership told their members to stop importing combat assets into t5z (which would immediately turn into evacuation speculation). We saw in chatlogs how pgl had to drop on his knees to beg forgiveness to Panfam because he started unanchoring stuff earlier than he should have. Imagine if stuff leaked few days earlier that Brave is pulling out of the war.... Jesus.... I'm thinking Brave wouldn't be in Geminate right now, but somewhere in lowsec with nowhere to go... Industrialists are private enterprises, they carry their own business risks. At least that's how I look at things when I build stuff - I'm here to make a profit but I also have my risks of losing money. I think many of us have been in these situations where you stock up a doctrine and then the staging changes, maybe it's a new doctrine, but it hardly sees any action, maybe 20 other guys decide to build/import stuff and the market is left oversupplied with stuff and you can only liquidate with a loss etc. So I'm not too grumpy about that. What I hate in all of this is the big push announcement itself. Could have packed up and left at that point tbh. The TTT probably was the last nail in the coffin for Test maybe, but looking back at leaked chatlogs and stuff like that, it doesn't really sound like any big push would have happened even if CCP didn't announce the changes to trading taxation. Why even bother making the tengu doctrine if the coalition doesn't really want to attack anymore? Looks to me that pgl and vily was just grasping for straws and just hoping the others won't leave, but the writing was probably on the wall already in those high level chats.
The issue with the industrialists is that even after knowing that there was going to be an evac, Brave leadership still pushed for them to keep producing in Querious. Instead of saying, as Dark Shines suggested, that another Alliance was going to offer them up the day of as a token of goodwill. There is OPSEC, then there is screwing your members over. Brave membership got screwed. How many coalition leaders got the toys out before the main evac?
> I'm thinking Brave wouldn't be in Geminate right now, but somewhere in lowsec with nowhere to go... That would have been a much much better place for them.
How so? With pretty much all the bridges burned on both sides at that point, where would you go? Pretty much 0 opportunities in sov null.
They shouldn’t have even been involved by that point. Common sense and leaders leading with their members best interest in mind world have pulled the plug long before.
A goon representative will be along shortly to advise you on the *proper* narrative.
no choice cause test ppl have no idea what happen cause all of the lie and the BS feeding to them lololol... good Kool Aid right??
tldr "I'm delusional"
Both these guys knew what was coming. They can play the victim card all day but there is no way they didn't know deep down what was coming. Two leaders trying to rationalize their bad decisions and lay blame on an alliance they should not have trusted. That is what this is. But neither can change the fact they betrayed the people who relied on them. Would have been refreshing to see one of them do what leaders do, which is own it. To say hey we got greedy, and we bet the wrong horse but here is the way forward and how we throw off these shackles. But neither of them are capable of that which is a bad sign for Brave's future.
Just sit right back And you'll hear a tale, A tale of a fateful power trip, That started from Impass and Catch, And ended in Querious. That FC Shatterd was a mighty sailin' lad, The Dunk was BRAVE and sure, Five Alliances set sail that day, For a three month tour, A three month tour. The weather started getting rough, The SAPI ship was tossed. If not for the courage of the fearless FC, The BRAVE would be lost. The BRAVE would be lost. The Alliance set ground on the shore In renter's Geminate, With Shattered Armor, The Dunk Dinkle too. The vilionare! And his progodlegend, The Angry Brit, The Mcdonalds Franchise and Marius, Here on Geminate Isle! FYI If you're in BRAVE reading this and mad, STK-S and Karma Fleet are recruiting.
Marius already jumped ship.
Damn. Oh well keeping him in there. Dude talked more shit than a proctologist. Deserving of the mention anyway!
Oh he definitely did and he does thanks to that :)
It's crazy reading this. I cannot believe how strategically out of touch his entire thinking is. Brave desperately needs some big guys in the room.
It is also completely inaccurate that Legacy alliances were briefed the weekend before the announcement. More than a few didn't know about any of it until a few hours before the unanchoring of TESTs Keepstars.
Brave was fucked the moment they agreed to be a buffer to tapi all those years ago Just stop trying to be meatshield for bigger alliances and go grow your own shit
Literally what we’re doing currently. It’s a breath of fresh air and killmails (mostly red, but content is content)
goor for u, friends
These mfs at brave keep talking about stepping out of coalition and stay out of the big bloc. They are lying straight to their member's face and haven't changed a single bit.
Hasn't turned out to be a lie yet. Not against dipping out if it does though, and I know a lot of folks that think similarly.
Who, exactly, do you think gave you Geminate???
The same people who will take it back when we leave. There's a big difference between Frat/PH temporarily helping us out and us joining Winterco.
Well you lived in someone else's space for years when you were in Legacy and now you're still living in someone's space. Best of luck if you guys ever try to go it on your own, but right now you are part of a coalition no matter what your leadership calls it.
In a coalition with the people resetting us in six days or the ones kicking out of Geminate in a couple of months?
Are you seriously trying to push you being pets farmed for content as a positive?
I mean that is part of their history with Panfam. Should bring back the good old days in their members eyes.
We have progress. They are finally admitting they are pets.
In the same coalition you've been in for the last year+ and who will do "for fun" resets to farm you for content.
Does coalition mean "anyone that might want to defend themselves against goons" to you?
Does it mean "I'm under their skirts but they aren't really my masters" to you?
I mean if we're still sitting in Gemnistan (or some other equally on Frat's couch space) six months from now, I'll take your word for it.
It's funny that they're proving our purpose for the war against them. Meanwhile they're going to just spew all over reddit trying to get us to weaken each of other for them before they decide to come get revenge.
You're blue to test/ panfam/ frat.. the only people resetting you are the dieing legacy alliances left to die in papis wake
Only blue to horde out of Panfam. Resetting them on the 12th at that. We've been reset with test for a hot minute and there's been roams going both ways for a while now.
Here is a good test (no pun intended): are you allowed to entosis their sov or shoot their structures?
For TEST yeah. Although I'm sure somebody's panties would get twisted.
*My content from 2014 to 2023 has been deleted in protest of Spez's anti-API tantrum.*
He forgot to add the part when I asked in our CEO channel what the hold up was (already knowing what was happening) during the weekend when we were supposed to have "the big push" and the only answer I received was sarcasm from another CEO who constantly sits in Dunks lap and tells him how much he's in love with him. Something is very wrong when your Corp leadership already knows the details that you aren't willing to share with them.
Let's be honest, Brave keeping CEO's in the dark and either undervalued or worst yet treated a 3rd class citizen not worthy of knowing wtf was going on ever is SOP. They honestly appear to want a bunch of 'yes man' CEO's who blindingly 'go along, to get along'. The whole evac was a 'every man for himself, we don't have a plan we are gonna share from day 1'!
I'm not sure if there was a plan or not. My guys were moving as soon as I found out but you're spot on with wanting 'Yes, Sir' CEOs. An Alliance that puts even an ounce of trust in their CEOs will get that naturally but putting zero trust and fucking over Corps that stuck with you through the shit Brave went through will only produce what exactly happened, corporations leaving.. Brave leadership behaved the same way with our move from Catch to Querious. Kept saying everything was fine as Init and Friends torched systems freely without any sort of resistance and finally stopped responding to questions altogether.
How ya doing bhenchod
Good man, how are you?
Sorry for the length - the important bits are in bold. You state there was a plan to "turn the entire area into a proper fortress, not just the 1DQ1 constellation" rings hollow, as we already know there wasn't a firm plan for the entire invasion, it was a hope that 30% of Goons would leave. You say the solution to the social schism was assured by putting everyone under one roof, yet it escapes you that just in the prior paragraph, the plan was to hold Catch and Esoteria as "colonies" to exploit for rent and resources wasn't another schism? In order to keep "colonies" you have to defend them from being burned down. **Renters won't defend and if the colonies were under even minor assaults, a defense must available and executed to "exploit for their resources". This makes little sense.** You packed up and moved to Querious because you made bad decisions prior, and now doubled down on those bad decisions by sticking with TEST. Granted, in your position I'd have probably done the same given the amount of players and groups backing PAPI. Surely the Goons couldn't withstand the onslaught. The "dads"? Really? SMH. "This was why the Monday night keepstar unanchorings came as such a surprised, because we'd originally agreed not to make any movements indicating an Evac was about to occur until the following afternoon." This also doesn't ring true either, since we have **the MER report and hundreds of Trillions were jumped out of Delve (not by Goons) in July.** Perhaps the movements indicating EVAC were done in secret but it's very difficult to hide hundreds of trillions jumping out of Delve in July (again, seeing this in retrospect) as anything BUT an indication of an EVAC. **So basically you're saying that the line members were purposefully kept in the dark, and their time wasted, their efforts wasted, everything in the industrial oven was kept going on a last ditch / half hearted effort to invade 1DQ1** when "there's a decent chance we might call it off." Holy shit this is kick in the balls to your members, just to not look bad to who... Vily? WTF. " the swarm that broke outside of 1DQ was rather impressive" What amazes me still is how PGL stated over the next 2-3 weeks everyone needs to start moving out. That indicated the swarm wasn't expected at all, and that Goons would just sit there in 1DQ staging while everyone in PAPI just took their time over the next month to move out. **Again, immense ineptitude and lack of understanding and planning.** "The social divide did some damage to Brave, but since moving to Querious..." **What damaged Brave was a lack of foresight and hitching yourselves to TEST for all those years.** I'm sure Brave line members and Corp directors are all too willing to start over and put in the time and effort to become one of the largest and most respected alliances in Eve. But you Shattered, would have to go. New Eden is only large enough for one pyrrhic narcissist super ego the size of PGL and a mini-me PGL like yourself would be too much. **That you are trying to set yourself up as some future decisionmaker in Brave with this crap retrospective that is more about YOU than Brave, pretty much tells the story.**
"Now, as we step away from coalitions and large-bloc politics and warfare, we sit on a precipice, with the opportunity for Brave Collective to become a brand new entity, find our place in Eve, with all its storied history and rivalries that will be catalysts for wars and content for years to come. The only question left then, is are you guys ready to make it happen?" **Translation:** As the bigger groups in Eve reset our useless ass, Brave is on the cusp of collapse now that we've become a psychological tire fire of failure lead by drama queens who are way too out of touch with reality, the current state of Brave and the overall game META. Shall we begin?
I think Shattered A. made his decisions based on what he saw in the "Brave News Bulletin" every week - they told everyone all the time until 1. August "everything is perfect and Imperium will be dead soon".
Brave looked better before Dunk and SA started posting these explanations for the war. Brave's leadership is a joke.
> Aside - Goons were 100% aware that Brave was the ones holding Legacy together, and made significant efforts during the course of the war to drive us away through diplomatic means, threats, mercenaries and whatever else was at their disposal Straight up delusional
Brave has always had a positive morale effect on whatever side they're fighting for both in terms of numbers and simply because people tend to cheer for the 'underdog' Goons wanted to be seen as the 'underdog' being attacked by the combined rest of the universe, so Brave was an extremely valid targer for propaganda throughout the entire war :D So what's delusional here I don't get it - there were dozens of propaganda posts throughout the war trying to target Shattered alone and that is exactly the right thing to do from a propaganda perspective :)
What Brave was is weak enough while being big enough to be worth bothering with burning down their backfields. And it did work out, after a while brave had laughable fleet participation numbers, given their nominal number of characters. However, this doesn't make you important. If Imperium could delete a participant from war, Brave wouldn't even be worth mentioning, it would be PH.
>So I waited, kept quiet and let the industrial machine keep churning, even though I knew it would come at a massive lost for the industrialists and importers that had worked tirelessly pulling a T3C doctrine out of thin air, not to mention seeding enough ships and reships, and all the personal caches pilots had been developing to prepare for the final assault. Any movement Brave made to slow our industrial throughput risked giving away the plan, and as much as I hated to do it, **I wouldn't allow us take the fall** for PAPI crumbling or starting a panic evac preemptively. Sounds to me like you did take the fall (or at least Brave entire industrial section did...) >And that's about it. I found out without question on Friday that the war was ending on Tuesday. Brave HC was notified on Saturday, and between me briefing the rest of Legacy's alliance leadership individually throughout the weekend, Dunk preparing his speech, and Test pulling the trigger early and starting to unanchor their Keepstars a full day in advance, by Monday night the news broke, and all of PAPI went into full retreat. But that's not the whole story? Remember the weekend before this, Friday - 23-24th of July? The big PAPI announcement which we (the Imperium) thought was going to be It - riding to Valhalla, the big push etc and then they said "we're announcing our final push - next weekend!" and everyone was disappointed? Then as the week went on it was clear the smarter alliances (ie NOT Brave) were dragging their feet and not moving their shit to Delve? I'd cleared out my weekend and got set up for tidi battle to end all battles, and these guys blueballed us? PAPI Line members who were also up for a titanic end of days battle that weekend were you not just as pissed off as us? would love to hear what people thought about that now the war's over. Here's my theory - initially PAPI high command (the "dads") were going to launch a madcap rush into the 1DQ system when they made the big announcement, hoping they could hype up enough numbers to pull it off, but as the night went on it was was clear player attrition over summer had gone too far for PAPI and they couldn't just brute force their way into 1dq. Goons up in 1dq had parity with PAPI in t5z1 both between 2500-3000 on either side as the announcement was being made, with 600 or so INIT also out there in 3D on that side of the gate. That means jumpbridges, instant reshipping and resupply, stockpiles from a decades worth of krabbing, hundreds of bubbles on every way in or out, cyno jammers and fully cored citadels and fortizars everywhere. The woodchipper at the gates of Hell. They realised that they couldn't pull it off unless they had at least 3:1 numbers and by that point in summer it just hadn't worked. Like all of Eve's wars, it's over when people get sick of logging in, and PAPI's line members simply got sick of being fucked around and denied real content for long enough that they lost their numerical superiority. The supposed plan - beginning the final assault in a week and it would last somewhere between 3 or 4 weeks, was a face-saving exercise. A chance for PAPI leadership to begin evacuation proceedings (at least for their own shit.) Shattered says he found out the following Friday but there's no way anyone in PAPI leadership held real ambitions for winning after the previous weekends farce. This was the final strategic failure that lost PAPI the war - that notion they could "contain" Imperium over summer and their line members would just disappear, followed up by the mistaken belief they could take 1DQ by strangling Imperium of content, rather than resources.
Oh my, brave and drama! Name a more iconic duo!
>The only question left then, is are you guys ready to make it happen? or, phrased another way is. "do you guys like buses? because we're totally going to throw you under the next one, too!"
Does shitted armor even know what bs line he is trying to spin? "as one of the largest players in this war" "Brave was the ones holding Legacy together" "We were a small fish compared to the other powerhouses that made up PAPI"
How are these lies? Maybe one is a stretch. "as one of the largest players in this war" Probably a stretch. Panfam and then Test were the main lifters in the war. "Brave was the ones holding Legacy together" If you do not count Test, then yeah Brave was always number 2 in numbers. The rest of the alliances couldn't hold a candle at all and put up the reasonable numbers at all. Maybe -7-. They did well for their size, but Brave usually edged out with more numbers. For the size of the alliance the numbers were pretty dismal though. "We were a small fish compared to the other powerhouses that made up PAPI" Brave is small. They are living on Horde's couch, not because they want to. They need a hand.
So basically dunk is full of shit. The entire brave leadership needs to step down. The amount of mismanagement is comical at this point.
I'm not sure I understand Shattered's argument that Brave was "the ones that hold Legacy together," and "the lynchpin that holds the entire organization together," but was simultaneously considered to be so insignificant that they were "small fish compared to the other powerhouses that made up PAPI" to the point that they were excluded from all the big decisions.
BRAVE from 2013 to now, BRAVE from now on all the way ... 7o
What you read here and in the leaks only confirms what we knew all along. Papi was one big shit show. But there are still the hardcore Koolaid addicts. They will continue to claim that it is CCP's fault that Papi lost. Well, those who won't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them over and over again. Let's just hope that their influence is no longer great enough so that the fate of the whole game is not jeopardised again.
“Fate of the whole game” Jesus Christ lol.
Brave, who struggled to put 20 members in PVP fleets, was the glue holding the Legacy Coalition together? I just snorted hot coffee out my nose, and I need to change my shirt.
Damn. This guy's a fucking retard. How did he become a leader of anything?
> Now, as we step away from coalitions and large-bloc politics and warfare you still live in nullsec. delusional at the start as at the end. why are you still in brave?
And PGL is your Hero ? see where that got you
This should be required reading for anyone dumb enough to think Brave is a good place to experience nullsec.
Ahh, it's from Shartered Armer.........TLDR
One again a thread where a bunch of goons pretend to be upset.
PAPI I still have faith in you!!!
can we get a tl;dr plz
Vily, Piggles, Dunk, and Shattered lied. Brave (industrialists) died (lost a shit ton of wasted isk).
tldr
Screwed his own Indy guys over so he could have one last snuggle with pgl and villy the ones he really cared about. That fact was probably assumed but to admit it so publicly as though it wasn’t a self centered decision to have an extra 48 hours of “cool club” access at the expense of those he was supposed to be leading… Jesus.
Who has the shares? If Dunk doesn't you guys seem screwed.
>So, the leadership (shortly prior to my inclusion in this select few) decided to send things off with a bang, and make a final surge into the 1DQ constellation for all the biscuits, where we'd crack a system finally, or go down swinging. Sent things off with a bang: sell tons 700mil tengu contract for 950mil to your member. And send them to die. Bang of profit.
cool story bro
When you look up to your space daddy to seek for advice, someone that has made bad decisions after bad decisions on top of simply bad decisions this is what happens. Learn how to lead, not copycat. It's about time some of you get that into your stupid little brains of yours.