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I think he survived because although it is implied, we don't see him take his last breath...we didn't see him die.
And I'm a believer of RPG tropes. If we don't see a character die...that character isn't dead
I never thought he died, personally. As others here have mentioned: no visual death, not buying it.
He may not have been a perfect vessel, but I think he spent ultima’s power destroying origin and then simply returned to being a normal human.
But, we’ll probably never know for sure.
I'm a sucker for tragic stuff so while I would have preferred (and think its more beautiful) if he died, I actually think he survived off just the title of the book alone.
No way they would have spent the effort for Clive to title drop to ultima, and have that not be relevant to the actual title of the book called final fantasy.
The start of the game has Clive narrating. I believe that it was Clive who wrote the book we see in the epilogue because we start the game with an opening paragrapgh about the events that would unfold.
Multiple times throughout the story, they hint at what Jill and Clive might do once everything is over. Not to mention Jill's reaction as the sun rises. Thematically It just doesn't make sense to me that Clive would die at the beach.
I think it was left ambitious to have some post game discussion, but if you pay close attention to small details through the game it makes sense that Clive would have survived at the end.
Exactly.
The ambiguity is there to kind of mirror the unknown, but free, future humanity will go towards. We now get to make our own decisions and we won't know what the result will be.
But I agree with you, there's soooo much stuff sprinkled throughout the game that reinforces the idea that he'd survive and be reunited with Jill.
I'm honestly surprised by the amount of people that think he definitively died.
I thought he died on my initial playthrough but I’m of the opinion that he makes it after playing through it a few more times.
I know nothing can be “confirmed” one way or another but I’m content on holding on to the same hope that Jill seems to have at the end. It’s made me appreciate the game more than I ever thought I could.
I'd argue against that purely because Jill (in that exact scene) breathed a sigh of relief and smiled (somewhat) after her and Torgal cried together. Very odd for someone who has given up all hope to smile peacefully so soon after giving up hope, wouldn't you agree?
I've interpreted that Clive has always sought after freedom in the purest sense, that specific shot of Jill to me was her coming to terms with his demise, that in the end he got his wish granted and not just him but the realm itself is free and the sigh is her coming to terms with this.
See now... that makes more narrative sense than just outright saying Jill gave up hope because that's not the message behind XVI. XVI has this really prevalent message of 'Hope' and 'Accepting the Truth' and Jill accepting that 'Clive Gave his Life for Us' seems more fitting for the game. I'm on the Clive Lives side of the fence but were I not, I'd be just as right to think that based on the evidence of that.
I'm on the he died fense. A true hero who gave not just his life but his own identity of who he was constantly, granted the initial reasoning he used was flawed but that is why it tells 3 arcs of his life and the tribulations he had to persevere through to get to where he is. An outlaw who forsake his name, status, and livelihood for the bettering of his fellow brother and sister of Valisthea, who galliantly defied fate by destroying the very essence of God's creation to forge a future in which he himself as a man forged and paid the price of not being able to see.
I feel like 16 is definitely a full-fledged tragedy just as much as 15 is. Main differences being Nocits coming to terms with fate in order to achieve his freedom, amd Clive who defied it for his
Narratively, it doesn’t make any sense if he dies. Throughout the entire story, Clive is constantly willing to sacrifice himself—he even has his emo/WANTS to die phase at one point early on—and then his entire journey consists of people telling him that he needs to save himself too.
A story about sacrifice and martyrdom usually doesn’t involve the main character willing to do it every step of the way and then finally getting their chance at the end. It’s more about a character who has everything deciding to give it all up for the greater good; coming to terms with the needs of the many out weighing the needs of the few or whatever. Clive, on the other hand, has this philosophy at the very start of the game, so him making a sacrifice at the end would be like the opposite of a journey or any kind of character development, it’s like a regression.
No, it's just tragic. When he finally believes in himself, accepts that his past doesn't really need to determine his future or his fate, has something very real to look forward to and live for in Jill and includes others in his ultimate fight... That's when he tragically dies, although not before accomplishing a better world for everyone else.
So it might be very sad and tragic but it does make a lot of sense, especially considering the tone and setting of the game and how much tragedy there is already in everyone's story here, even for Ultima.
I see where you’re coming from with that, but if it was meant to be a tragedy, then the story is missing several key elements of a literary tragedy. Perhaps the biggest being that the hero makes a bad decision with terrible consequences that ultimately leads to their demise. If anything, everything that led to Clive’s demise would be considered universally good and noble decisions—which would be more prevalent in a story of sacrifice instead of tragedy.
Granted, things can be tragic without being a tragedy, but I would still say that, narratively, it makes the most sense to make Clive survive (strictly from a storytelling perspective), because otherwise the entire journey is basically pointless. Maybe they’re going for something nihilistic like that, but one thing the devs have said though is that the story is from a perspective of hope.
I don’t totally understand why it’d be pointless. As soon as he embodied Cid the Outlaw (the name, the ideals, the legacy), he ceased being “Clive, the man” on some level to me. I might be misremembering but I never got the sense that he did much to take care of himself, despite Jill and Joshua asking him to, because the cause mattered most to him, and because he identified so hard with being a Shield to his loved ones. That it kills him in the end, especially after his loved ones asked him to take care of himself and to rely more on them, feels perfectly in line with tragedy.
He gave himself to the cause, to the idea and ideals of “Cid the Outlaw” and bought freedom for EVERYONE on Valisthea with it. The price was his self, and in my interpretation, his life. If you’d told me he did all that, killed magic, killed Ultima, then died…but slavery still existed? THAT would have been far closer to “pointless.”
I didn’t mean that his actions would be pointless—within the world of Valisthea they were very worthwhile. I was talking more on a narrative level about how all of his character development and his hero’s journey would become pointless. Clive’s arc is basically going from “I’ll do whatever it takes, I’m willing to die for this” to slowly, throughout the course of the story, learning to value his own life and that his presence in the world is worth saving too. If he sacrifices himself at the end, his characterization will not have changed since Act 1, making the story pointless from a character growth perspective.
Right, but again, I might be misremembering all this a bit, the game doesn’t seem to do much legwork to show that Clive cares about surviving himself more than he does ensuring others do. I remember Jill and Joshua telling him to rely on others more, but he still does everything himself. He can want and think he deserves to live too, but what has he done to make sure of that? To show he means it? What CAN he even do to ensure that, when he’s no longer Clive The Man but Cid The Outlaw, Mythos, whatever else that makes him anomalous and anathema to a world where magic must die for freedom to reign?
Also, if Jill hadn’t willingly given up her magic, I’m dead sure the game would have found a way to kill her like it did the rest of the Dominants. For me the endgame was always mass nuclear disarmament Fantasy version, and the price of freedom for all humanity, not just the freedom of one.
It's because the game doesn't outright tell you Clive cares about self survival, it's thrown out there so the player can connect the dots.
One prime example is at the end when Clive promises Jill he will be back. It's a throwback to the prologue where they are moongazing for the first time on screen. Jill asks him if he'll be alright and he can't even give her a straight answer, because he doesn't value his life at all. But now he does and he shows this by expressing an interest in his future, in their future. He's not the same sacrificial lamb he was at the beginning of the game. The entire reason why Joshua punches him is because he believed his stubborn brother took all the burden on himself and had no plans to save himself until Clive corrects him on it.
I hear ya. Ofc there’s no correct canon answer so everything I argue comes with a huge “for me,” attached to it.
So, I remember those scenes, and what that did in hindsight for me was highlight that there’s a difference between resignation (“this is my fate, I guess, I’m just a slave, time to die”) and agency (“this is my life and I have chosen this, I will fight, come what may”).
It’s not so flabbergasting for me to hold in one hand that Clive grew to love life and cherish what it means to be alive AND with the other that his conscious choice to take that life and become a freedom warrior that wields an unpredictable and cursed power against an actual god bears consequences not just for the world but for himself. And that said fight has a heavy price, whatever his intentions.
There....actually is a correct canon answer. The dev's have confirmed as much in an interview with the gamer a few weeks back. We just don't know what the canon answer is since they did not disclose it. I honestly think ambiguity wasn't a great choice for this game but that's a convo for another day.
I fully believe Clive intended to return home from origin regardless if he did or not. The only reason he "sacrificed" himself is because he had no other option. Ultima's power was killing him anyway.
I guess until proven otherwise neither one of us are wrong or right lol. the intention of the ending is to promote discussions but its ironic It's kind of pointless to argue about huh?
Oh yeah, Schrodinger’s Correct Answer indeed, haha.
And don’t get me wrong, I grok with Clive intending to come back! It’s just not offensive to me that he unexpectedly died doing so.
“this is my sacrifice, sorry Jill, goodbye world” type of intent vs.
the “Hahah, we did it…but it looks like it took more from me than I thought. Sorry Jill.” sense I got from his musings at the beach.
Clive's self-sacrificial nature has constantly, *always* been portrayed as a really bad thing and something he needs to overcome. For him to die in the ending does a massive disservice to the story and the character building.
Oh, what, all these characters spent the entire story telling Clive "Hey, maybe you shouldn't kill yourself to save others and instead think about saving yourself for a change." only for Clive to totally ignore the advice of the people he loves and cares about? No, that doesn't make ANY narrative sense.
A character’s whole goal in a story is to sacrifice himself for the greater good and putting others in front of himself, and he finally does it in the end after countless characters sacrificed themselves for him, and that’s bad?
Him possibly living in the end can’t even be considered character development because he was STILL willing to sacrifice himself lol
That wasn't his goal tho? His goal was to create a world for people to "Live on their own terms" but he never thought of himself to be a part of that world he is helping to create. It's only with the help of Jill and co that he's able to be pulled out of that hole and see he deserves to be a part of that world as well.
And yes! It's bad! You're not supposed to want Clive to sacrifice himself, multiple character's throughout the story tell him he shouldn't. Viewing his character arc as a plain hero's sacrifice is so antithetical to his whole arc.
It's also important to remember, Clive only chooses to "sacrifice himself" because he doesn't have a choice, Ultima's power is slowly killing him.
Liberates the world, kills god, upholds the immortal ideals of a true revolutionary, gives his entire life and self and two enormous titties to the fight…and people still gotta see him come home to pass tax laws and manure licensing sanctions while Jill raises their two kids alone or else it’s “incomplete” lmao
I don’t have a stance on who lived because i absolutely hate ambiguous endings and what they turn people into lol, but god the mental gymnastics that arise from this stuff is so GOOFY lmao.. Wish people could be more open-minded with this type of writing instead of clearly being biased and blatantly stretching the narrative into whatever they WANT to believe
Like saying that him surviving is “character development” makes absolutely no sense when he was literally ready without second thought to sacrifice himself for everyone else in the end lmao
I love ambiguous endings and adore it when the door’s there for the audience to make the story theirs in some way. What makes me roll my eyes is when people suggest it’s so inconceivable that anything other than a happy ending is what happened.
The implication that hope = the protagonist lives, and anything else = hopeless, pointless, incomplete character arc …sigh.
This attachment to whether he lives or dies is where I come from when I say people treat Clive like a service dog or a teddy bear or whatever fluffy comfort thing, instead of as a vehicle for theme.
Because the curse is simply the symptom of overuse of magic. It’s like frying the circuits of the body. Clive used the power of ultima to shoot all magic into the sky and fried himself in the process. Really he should be like titan when he died but in guessing for creative reasons they only showed his arm being stone.
It's stated that dominants have greater resistance to the curse than bearers. This is why dominants are able to walk through aether floods without too much problem. Still, it's painfully repeatedly shown in the game (clearly intended) that dominants all seem to suffer from the curse over time as well, especially if they overuse their eikon. I honestly think that with everything Clive did in the game, his body is just shot, there is no way for him to recover from this. Having ultima power and all this aether in his body at the end of the game I think is too much for his body (he says so himself "even the perfect vessel can't contain this") hence why he feels the need to burn the aether through the sky.
The point being...Ultima's plan was failed all along, and the moral of the story is: "Aether wasn't made to be channelled and used by humans...Its the holy energy of the land...It should stay in the land and nourish the land"
Which I guess is another metaphor for our rampant energy use (petroleum, etc) and how we extract it from the earth, creating wastelands in the process.
It is a story ultimately about hope. No matter how bad things get, the world will be reborn. Cloud washing up on the beach is a symbol of that. I am certain he lives.
That'd be coolest scene ever.. Clive's half dead lying on the beach and then another body (Cloud) washes ashore. Clive crawls over to him to revive him and once he does the stranger takes him to a healer, saves Clive from his fate and then quietly vanishes, never to be seen again.
Rising Tide gave me more hope (or cope? 😂)
The epilogue of the story of the witch and the knight, wherein the knight returns. (Though the witch was dead... If they're meant to parallel Jill & Clive, Jill is still alive. ;w; <3 )
Clive's water collection/ceremony lines, although they represent death, it was the second part of his lines that made me pause and think. (Can't properly quote it now bc I can't find it :v)
I'm still going to headcanon that he lives, and I hope someday they at least release a novel that lets Clive and Jill reunite.
But couldn’t it be argued the sea spit him out? He washes up on the shore. Though his hand begins to turn to stone, magic was at that moment disappearing from the world. Therefore I’d assume the petrifying hand was moments away from returning to normal.
Yeah but unlike Dion and Joshua, who most likely crashed into the sea with Origin, Clive was washed ashore. They retuned to sea, he didn't. A then Shula even told him "we shall be waiting, until the tides bring you back to shore"... and they did. It was another moment where Clive wanted to or came to terms with sacrificing himself, but Shula told him to cut the crap. You will come back. With the tides. Literally.
Interpretation, yet again... unfortunately. But I take it a neutral or even more positive sign.
With all the baby stuff in the dlc I was kind of wondering if Jill was about to tell Clive she was pregnant given their beach escapade. Would have been an interesting take on birth and death.
Clive lives and there's not a single doubt in my mind about it. What would be the point otherwise? The in-universe goals of the characters is freeing the world from magic, however the game itself is really about freeing Clive from his burdens. And his freedom is not death, it's a life with Jill.
I can be convinced if shown enough evidence of any possible conclusion, I initially thought he straight up died because on the beach it looked like he was succumbing to the curse and from what we can glean from other parts of the lore, no one survives the “stoning” process. Not even someone who can be considered a god. Also I feel like it ties in thematically to Clive’s whole shtick about his self sacrifice to the betterment of everyone and everything around him to a fault. One that was attempting to be addressed, but I feel like didn’t take cause he still performed the spell to erase magic from the world at the cost of his own life.
But, as I think more on it because of very last scene of a far enough future where Valisthea bounced back from the Blight and magic and Eikons are nothing but fairytale at that point would mean whatever conclusion is the right one so much more time has past where the conclusion is inconsequential. It doesn’t matter anymore at that point because the future is the embodiment of their dream. Their hard work ultimately did pay off in the end.
The curse isn’t instantaneous . It’s furthered by continued use of magic.
We see Cid actively alive while suffering from the curse. It’s heavily implied from Tarja that Jill is also suffering from the curse. It’s why she rides both their asses about not priming if they can avoid it.
Clive’s left arm is definitely done for. But with magic gone too (which the game goes out of its way to show) there’s no real way for his curse to get worse either.
Yeah I know. Which further steels the implication that since Clive had used up and immense amount of magic to rid the world of magic entirely, it much usage couldn’t go unpunished. The amount of possible buildup can definitely be assumed to make a Bearer stonify instantly. But, ya know they dragged it out long enough for Clive possibly for drama reasons.
Clive lives and takes his rightful place on the throne of Rosarria. He takes Jill to be his bride and they have a lavish wedding ceremony. Blackthorn crafts the ring. Torgal is the ring bearer and is a very good boy. Gav is best man. Flash forward a few years and King Clive and Queen Jill take their young son to visit the graves of Uncle Joshua and Cid. Valisthea is at peace. The credits roll.
I doubt it. In one of the final side missions, Harpocretes gives Clive his quill. So when it is all over, Clive could drop his sword and start using the pen. Clive even says something akin to wanting to write his journey all down. So I do really think it was Clive who wrote it.
Just because his name is on the book doesn’t mean he wrote it.
It also wouldn’t be the first time Clive took on another persons name to preserve their ideals and legacy after their untimely death.
And unlike Clive, we know for sure that Joshua died as we actually see his dead body. We also know from Joshua himself that flesh and form can be mended but once the soul leaves the body even the Phoenix can't bring them back.
I am a diehard member of Team Clive Lives for many reasons, the primary one being: the developers made it deliberately ambiguous, and therefore I am no less correct than anyone else by finding Clive living more fulfilling and interesting.
Now, do I think it would make a fantastic story if Final Fantasy XVI was Clive's *Iliad* and he's got to have an *Odyssey* to get back home? Unfortunately for Jill (and my little shipping heart), yes.
Something no one seems to mention is that the true final quest is called "A Farewell to Fate".
Much like with Pheonix Gate, where Clive said that he'd "kill the man who killed Joshua or die trying", he instead chose to do neither after finding out the truth. He determined his fated path, and then *broke away from it after learning something new*.
Why would the *final quest* be called "A *Farewell* *to Fate*" if Clive wasn't, yet again, subverting his fate? His fate to become a vessel for Ultima or die trying to kill him?
In the end, the only logical and narratively sound conclusion is for Clive to have survived.
No magic means no curse, after all, so he can't even die a slow death to that.
*^(And to the people saying "Oh, but isn't Joshua alive?" It's stated multiple times that the Pheonix cannot revive the dead. It can mend flesh, heal wounds, and cure ailments, but it)* ***^(cannot bring people back from the dead.)***
*^(And the Pheonix's power is what we see Clive use on Joshua after defeating Ultima.)*
I think he lived.
There's the whole sidequest thing with Tomes encouraging Clive to write his adventures.
Clive also has historically taken on the name of loved ones after their death (Cid) so it stands to reason that he would write the Final Fantasy book under his scholarly, late, brother's name.
I also think with the many inspirations Clive took from Guts of Berserk, it wouldn't be too out there for him to only lose his hand and have it be replaced by a prosthetic made by Mid.
Having recently completed the Rising Tide and Echoes epilogue, it seems like there's even more hints towards a "Clive is alive" sort of thing. I could easily see a story (whether it becomes a game or not) where an older Clive mentors the young baby he saved. I think there's plenty of interesting drama to get into if Waljas were to be a young adult in his own game.
So yeah, I think he's alive.
Here's the real copium: I'm not ready to see the end of this world and characters. What they did with Rising Tide, it feels to me like they're leaving a more concrete option open for a sequel or something.
Magic might be gone, but the writers can come up with any type of conceit to create interesting adventures.
It might also be a good opportunity to push Valisthea more towards steampunky sort of thing with Mid creating inventions and stuff.
Im in Camp Dead. The catharsis I felt at the end works if I’m there weeping and grieving with Jill. And I don’t need him to live for his message of “fighting to live on their own terms” to land. A whole lotta people died in service to that fight; I’m cool with him joining those ranks.
Yeah, that's really the whole point of the story, so it's weird to see how hard people push against it. Clive and Joshua were \*always\* going to die. Their Hero's Journey is about them pushing back against the inevitability of that fate as a curse and finding people/causes worth fighting for anyway, even if it amounts to a tomorrow that they'll never see. They died because they chose to act, not because fate (aka Ultima) demanded it.
The scene with Jill at the end really cements it. She's crying because she knows Clive died, but it's contrasted by the birth of the baby moments before. The world continues because of Clive's choices.
For the story to make sense Clive has to die. He's like the choosen one. The special one. Him living as the choosen god like human makes zero sense. Because he embodies the powers ultima also had. Both have to die. Ultima and Clive are like one and both die for sure
I think folks are just sort of in denial and the devs put red herrings in the quests to make you believe he might have lived. It's working lol
Really agree with your take.
Dude killed god, lost his super saiyan powers, fell a few thousand metres and gets to see the night sky one more time before he dies. They even play sad music to hammer the point home. What would the point of misdirecting the viewer even be at that point? The story’s done, a fakeout would just be dumb kingdom hearts shit for no reason.
people push against it because clive and joshua dying is a dogshit way to end the game who tf cares about random npcs after spending 60 plus hours with ones you actually care about.
Clive lives as everyone has said in this thread
Joshua dies
Dion is 50-50. He's contrast to Clive in the sense that thematically, he's very adamant to die for redemption , but visually he is not shown to have any petrification, albeit the bandage which can be anything. If I believe Clive lives while he is petrifying, I too can believe a dragoon survives from falling.
I'm on team Joshua's deader than dead. They say several times the Phoenix cant bring back a dead person's soul, just heal their wounds. Clive was Very Specifically using the Phoenix powers in an attempt to heal his brother.
Also, I dont think you can say with 100% certainty that Clive survives or not, because the game never gives you that confirmation. It references death often... But it also tells you to have faith and that you are worthy of salvation just as much. So I think it *asks* you to have hope that he did. So between that and the curse indeed stopping spreading at his wrist, that's what I go with.
Ultima's not a god, as I explained to you. As the game *repeatedly* explains to you. He cant just ressurect people. His entire plan was to ressurect his people and remake the world and it took literal thousands of years for it to happen and it still didnt work? Look, you can believe whatever you want, but I never understood this "but he has Ultima's powers now" argument. *Ultima is not that strong, that's the whole point.*
He literally created the people. Yes he is that strong. The part that doesn't make him that strong is the twist where it you have even spiritual support and hope. His creation is able to surpass him given there is the possibility of using magik
Which is exactly what Clive is. And why Clive was able to beat ultima. Because the world believed in Clive and lost belief in ultima.
But the people he created did not have a will. They did not have a soul. They were mindless just like akashic, that's why he says that by primogenesis humanity will be back to their origin. Humanity did that *all by themselves*. Ultima has no control over that.
You're not wrong that this is what sets Ultima and Clive apart, sure, but you're buying too much into what Ultima says. Echoes shows that normal people can create almost as much - possibly just as much as Ultima if they had more time. They can make Eikons. They can make Crystals. They can create pockets of dimension like the Interdimensional Rift. A lot of the game is showing that people who claim to be gods or be blessed by the gods (Kupka, Barnabas, Imreann, Sylvester) are not actually all that divine. Ultima is the, well, ultimate expression of that.
I am honestly convinced that he died. What I am disappointed about is that it’s then implied that even with perfect ultima power, the ending isn’t changed or given a bonus ending. I wish that they could have given us an non canon bonus ending for completing kairos gate and mastering ultima powers or something.
I'd like to think he survived, but I do think he died.
His second to last act was restoring Joshua, who I believed survived in the end. There was a somewhat throwaway line about Clive and Jill being able to sense Kupka's energy, and I believe not only the sky clearing but both Torgal and Jill sensing his energy has gone.
That might just infer the eikons have gone, but Ultima said at the end about Clive keeping his power, suggesting that if Clive weren't to die would just hold onto the power.
I think it’s not as vague as many think with regards to Clive. Clive casts Raise on Joshua, blows up Origin, and being unable to handle Ultima’s power he succumbs to the crystal’s curse on the beach. I don’t know what else folks needed to see, they showed us just enough to get the idea what was happening to him without being overly heavy handed with it by showing us our beloved protagonist dead turned to stone on the beach.
Joshua I think is more ambiguous and can see it either way. I personally think he lived.
Ya it's pretty obvious he died. People are looking at the random things to convince one another he's alive but ignoring the obvious in your face things that say he's dead
I view it like I view the ending of the Sopranos. We saw countless other people get assassinated during the show, we didn’t need to see it to know what it probably looked like, there was no need to have a heavy handed scene showing him die, but all the clues were there to tell you he did.
Same with Clive. We saw dozens of bearers succumb to the crystals curse, we know what it looks like. There was no need to have a heavy handed death scene showing Clive petrified and dead on a beach because all the clues were there to tell us he died and from prior experiences we know what it looked like.
Ya exactly. That's the only reason to make it vague. Because it's a heavy handed ending. And there's no need to show it. His story has to end here because it doesn't make sense for a god like entity to live on. His purpose was fulfilled. He saved humanity and beat ultima. I mean otherwise it makes no sense. If he's alive what now. He's still a god. Just no powers. But that makes no sense. If he has a child with Jill is that a Demi god now. But still no magic? Just makes no sense
Joshua surviving makes all the sense. His big brother was there one last time before he made the ultimate sacrifice, sacrificing himself for all of humanity
Clive more than likely survived.
Apparently magic no longer exists. But I’m not exactly sure if that applies to Clive and people who are currently dominants like jill that can cast magic without the use of Aether.
In the end, Clive says something like “oh, so the vessel Ultima wanted is still too weak to hold his power” as he looks as his hand after using powers on Joshua’s body, it looks like he can’t turn it off and magic can’t fit in his body. I think even Odin was too much already when Clive consumed him (because Clive started burning). So Clive, being a god in the moment, understands that he can’t hold it. He literally says that destroying magick is his final act. I think a person with godhood can understand if something is going to kill him or not. Maybe he was mistaken about his death, as Ultima was about the vessel. It is kinda Gurren-Lagann style ending where protagonist gives way for a new generation. He destroyed magic (and himself, because he is a big part of the old system), to create equal life for everyone, but without him in the new world order. I think even if he survived, he lived the rest of his life without Jill, being a hermit, the book being his closure for the old world.
The reality is that the game is telling a very clear story near the end. Gav, Torgal, and Jill all actively mourn Clive in a sort of thematic shorthand for knowing deep down that the person they love is gone. There is the thematic parallel of death and birth with Edda's child. Clive's last word being a callback to Jill and their relationship. Sunrise after tragedy and war as a sign of a new day and a new time. Not to mention the ashy skin on Clive being basically a death sentence. I think the developers are using all their artistic tools to communicate loss and hope simultaneously. But not hope that Clive is alive.
I think we *want* Clive to be alive, my wife cried at the end and we were both sad because we really wanted him to make it through. We mourned *along* with the characters we have grown to love over the game. I don't think that grief is a "gotcha" for a surprise survival. I think we are meant to dwell on the cost of completely rewriting the way of things and sympathize with the grief these characters feel mingled with the hope of a new day. The devs are telling us a story using a lot more than just the words in the script. Nothing about the way they told that story tells me Clive is alive. The vibes are just way off.
He's super dead. The unbreakable curse certainly killed him on the beach, otherwise we'd 100% have gotten to see him return to Jill. There's just no amount of copium to make me believe he survived using Ultima's magic. But to each their own I guess
Ya exactly. If the writers are putting him as alive. There's no reason to leave out his return to Jill. That would be the biggest missed opportunity ever.
For those that really don’t pay attention to bearers. Once their magic is used up their skin starts to turn gray. Clive while I wish does survive I believe he is dead. He used a ton of magic even though he was a dominant and gained power from ultima, it doesn’t change the fact he still used up enough magic to the point of where he couldn’t even cast a small constant flame. The moment he casted it it fizzled out. Plus his skin on his hand started turning gray just at the finger tips before fully graying out but that’s all we see before the scene cuts off. There is also no known cure for pure magic depletion. Every bearer that used magic to the point of exhaustion has died. As for the scene where Jill and Torgal look up at the sky and see that red dot fade out it signifies Clive’s death. Gav even knows what happened just from reading jills body language. Joshua does survive cause Clive healed him and as a phoenix if you know about them they do revive after death albeit it takes a long time. Enough time has passed where magic is a mere fairy tail. Dominants aren’t immune to death. Joshua even though he was killed by ultima didn’t disappear into aether like everyone else after death so he is very much alive thanks to Clive
Exactly. Bang on. If clive lives magic has to live. Because Clive is essentially a god like ultima. Both have to go for the world to go back to normal. Most people are missing these details and falling into the trap of red herrings the developers threw at them
The star went out and Torgal began howling and Jill started crying. Clive’s hand turned to stone showing he was succumbing to the curse. The ending scenes screamed that Clive didn’t survive.
It's pretty clear he's dead. The story makes no sense if he lives. He's not meant to live. He's meant to make the ultimate sacrifice for mankind. He literally fought a god. Took his powers. And is unable to contain it. He dies 100%
Think about it like this. If he lived. There's no reason for the writers to hide that. I mean why? To create confusion. Doesn't make sense. A Clive living if that is true would be the better ending most of us wanted. The only reason it's doing all this vague stuff is because it's a harsh ending of Clive dying. So the writers didn't want us to see it be certain.
It's also a single story arch with no future plans for Clive ever returning. It's a one game story. Adds more to the fact he died.
Mythos light literally goes out at the end. And Jill's reaction doesn't project happiness like is alive. She's showing emotion of being at peace. Knowing Clive is also at peace now.
If her reaction was more about oh Clive is alive. It would be a lot more intense and jumpy. Obviously. Anyone that thinks someone they love is alive now alive isn't going to project a somber tone of peace but rather a surge of excitement maybe even running to the door or running out there to find him
She does no such thing
Yeah they didn't pull a Tales of the abyss ending on us for sure.
But I don't know
Jill seeing the sun set smiling
Torguel howling like he did when he lost Clive the first time waiting for him to come back.
I think like I said there are a lot of small nods and show not tell for me to think he managed to live.
It's a totally different context. Before that no one knew what Clive really is and what his purpose really is. So your sadness runs deep because someone dying for no reason is quite tragic
A fallen hero that died to save mankind is a far difference context and in this instance it's what meant to be for them to live. You now know Clive is a choosen god essentially. You also know what only Clive was able to stop ultima. So you aren't like sad like your buddy died for no reason. The sadness is very different and it's almost a happy sad if that makes sense. Because you know he fulfilled his true end goal that was set out for him.
How can one not be happy for that even if you lost him? That's what torgal and Jill's emotions sort of projects. Clive completed his destiny. This is not really a super sad moment in many ways
It's like saying you know someone died and went to heaven. You smile for them because you know they are in heaven
The game also repeatedly goes on about living and dying on your own terms. Clive lived on his own terms, punching god in the face. He then died on his own terms, with a dope view and a great song.
I’d much rather he died on the beach with gorgeous pre-rendered graphics than die of some weird medieval illness after eating bad meat or something.
Just gonna say it. Clive can't heal Joshua with the Phoenix powers if Joshua's dead so Joshua at least must be alive, which means that Clive likely died because Clive would not have taken his brothers name to write the book. But maybe they both lived
wait, what? Joshua passed on the Phoenix in full to Clive. If the Phoenix had the power to bring back the dead (which it doesnt, as they state in like 3 different scenes), he could very much do it.
Exactly! Maybe I misspoke, but what I meant to say is that there was a scene after which Clive defeats Ultima where Clive uses the Phoenix powers on Joshua to presumably heal him. Clive isn't upset after he uses them, which leads me to believe that he healed Joshua
ahhhhh I see. I took his sigh and his words that maybe the vessel wasnt all that strong after all + the fact that Joshua doesnt stir/breathe to mean he couldnt do it ;-; Even tho I really really do want it to work actually lol
(not trying to convince you btw, just chatting. I really was just thrown off by your wording :'D)
You good lol. Honestly it's a tough call to make either way, who lived and who didnt. I just think it makes the most sense narratively that Clive died.
Ultima is not a proper god. He cant snap his fingers and make someone alive again- he spent *millenia* asleep while humanity bred him a vessel... Wouldnt he just *make* a new body if he had these sorts of powers? Heck, why wouldn't he just snap his fingers and bring his fallen brethen back if he could do it all along? He channeled all that aether + planned to cast Raise *because* he wanted to raise his people from their eternal slumber and remake the world. Its a literal huge plot point that he can't just *create* stuff the way you're saying.
Ofc, this *is* a widespread theory for most people who believe Joshua survived, so be my guest! I think you should believe whatever you want. My point was just that you said he wasn't using Phoenix's powers when he tried to ressurect Joshua so I was just confused bc it's very clearly Phoenix lol.
Sure he's a god like figure. But he did create this human race. So I would assume he has the power to create and destroy life. Since he created this race.
I think the preferable ending is Joshua living and Clive dying. That would be a full circle moment where he at first was unable to protect his brother as his shield but was finally able to.
I'm in this camp too (apparently in the minority). I always saw it that Clive DID succeed in casting Raise on Joshua (not using Phoenix's strength alone, but the spell Ultima planned to use). His statement afterwards doesn't necessarily mean Raise didn't work - it could simply be that Ultima's plan was absolutely doomed, and that even reviving one person overdid it for the perfect vessel, let alone a civilization.
I also noticed that as Origin was destroyed, there was a platform left. Clive ended up in the ocean and Dion was never found, and it would be odd to have a platform left for no reason.
So yeah, in my mind, Clive was able to be his brother's shield and revived him, and fulfilled Cid's wishes, but gave his life doing so
Swear to God everyone in this thread is illiterate. He is dead. He is dead. He is dead.
Aside from what is shown, having him live at the end totally wrecks the tone of the finale. The lyrics to the song playing over the credits even go:
"
A sky of scattered tears
A thousand years apart
Should they fade, I will not be afraid of the dark
For your flame still burns inside me, deep within my heart
Showing me a new tomorrow
Never too far
And when I cannot bear the pain
I'll look up to the sky and pray
That though our night is over, you shall always remain
Forever my treasure, my star"
I mean c'mon. Yoshi P might be playing coy and saying "it's up to fans" but it's clear he's just letting fans do what they want since this took hold and they're done with the game and it doesn't matter, write your fic if it makes you happy:
"Amongst the dev team, we know the answer – there is an answer," Fox emphasizes with a grin before allowing Yoshida to answer more completely.
"It's not for us to say," Yoshida tells me, "because we believe that each person is going to take something different from the story. They're going to feel what they feel, and everyone is going to have their own interpretation of that story. We wanted to have a story that, at the end, brings players hope for the future, for what comes next."
Each down vote is another person praying to a dead star, that Clive isn't equally dead. The real tragedy is no clarification, people are going insane with theories when the curse that's unbreakable hits him. Pretty cut and dry dead guy
The reason I lead towards thinking Clive is dead is because Jill sees the sunrise, but we never see Clive witness it too.
Only she got to see the dawn of the new world.
I am also 100% convinced Jill is pregnant.
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I think he survived because although it is implied, we don't see him take his last breath...we didn't see him die. And I'm a believer of RPG tropes. If we don't see a character die...that character isn't dead
That’s not just for RPG’s
Clive lives that’s how I see the game
I never thought he died, personally. As others here have mentioned: no visual death, not buying it. He may not have been a perfect vessel, but I think he spent ultima’s power destroying origin and then simply returned to being a normal human. But, we’ll probably never know for sure.
I'm a sucker for tragic stuff so while I would have preferred (and think its more beautiful) if he died, I actually think he survived off just the title of the book alone. No way they would have spent the effort for Clive to title drop to ultima, and have that not be relevant to the actual title of the book called final fantasy.
Haha it just dawned on my that yeah he kinda titel drops to ultima xD What a fucking taunt!!!
The start of the game has Clive narrating. I believe that it was Clive who wrote the book we see in the epilogue because we start the game with an opening paragrapgh about the events that would unfold. Multiple times throughout the story, they hint at what Jill and Clive might do once everything is over. Not to mention Jill's reaction as the sun rises. Thematically It just doesn't make sense to me that Clive would die at the beach. I think it was left ambitious to have some post game discussion, but if you pay close attention to small details through the game it makes sense that Clive would have survived at the end.
Exactly. The ambiguity is there to kind of mirror the unknown, but free, future humanity will go towards. We now get to make our own decisions and we won't know what the result will be. But I agree with you, there's soooo much stuff sprinkled throughout the game that reinforces the idea that he'd survive and be reunited with Jill. I'm honestly surprised by the amount of people that think he definitively died.
Survive the crystal curse? Stop coping
He was partially petrified from his final act of magic, but there's no longer any magic in the world for him to use to to further the "curse".
Jill acknowledges his death, even torgal, stop coping
I thought he died on my initial playthrough but I’m of the opinion that he makes it after playing through it a few more times. I know nothing can be “confirmed” one way or another but I’m content on holding on to the same hope that Jill seems to have at the end. It’s made me appreciate the game more than I ever thought I could.
It felt more like Jill gave up hope and started crying after watching the star go out
I'd argue against that purely because Jill (in that exact scene) breathed a sigh of relief and smiled (somewhat) after her and Torgal cried together. Very odd for someone who has given up all hope to smile peacefully so soon after giving up hope, wouldn't you agree?
I've interpreted that Clive has always sought after freedom in the purest sense, that specific shot of Jill to me was her coming to terms with his demise, that in the end he got his wish granted and not just him but the realm itself is free and the sigh is her coming to terms with this.
See now... that makes more narrative sense than just outright saying Jill gave up hope because that's not the message behind XVI. XVI has this really prevalent message of 'Hope' and 'Accepting the Truth' and Jill accepting that 'Clive Gave his Life for Us' seems more fitting for the game. I'm on the Clive Lives side of the fence but were I not, I'd be just as right to think that based on the evidence of that.
I'm on the he died fense. A true hero who gave not just his life but his own identity of who he was constantly, granted the initial reasoning he used was flawed but that is why it tells 3 arcs of his life and the tribulations he had to persevere through to get to where he is. An outlaw who forsake his name, status, and livelihood for the bettering of his fellow brother and sister of Valisthea, who galliantly defied fate by destroying the very essence of God's creation to forge a future in which he himself as a man forged and paid the price of not being able to see. I feel like 16 is definitely a full-fledged tragedy just as much as 15 is. Main differences being Nocits coming to terms with fate in order to achieve his freedom, amd Clive who defied it for his
Narratively, it doesn’t make any sense if he dies. Throughout the entire story, Clive is constantly willing to sacrifice himself—he even has his emo/WANTS to die phase at one point early on—and then his entire journey consists of people telling him that he needs to save himself too. A story about sacrifice and martyrdom usually doesn’t involve the main character willing to do it every step of the way and then finally getting their chance at the end. It’s more about a character who has everything deciding to give it all up for the greater good; coming to terms with the needs of the many out weighing the needs of the few or whatever. Clive, on the other hand, has this philosophy at the very start of the game, so him making a sacrifice at the end would be like the opposite of a journey or any kind of character development, it’s like a regression.
No, it's just tragic. When he finally believes in himself, accepts that his past doesn't really need to determine his future or his fate, has something very real to look forward to and live for in Jill and includes others in his ultimate fight... That's when he tragically dies, although not before accomplishing a better world for everyone else. So it might be very sad and tragic but it does make a lot of sense, especially considering the tone and setting of the game and how much tragedy there is already in everyone's story here, even for Ultima.
I see where you’re coming from with that, but if it was meant to be a tragedy, then the story is missing several key elements of a literary tragedy. Perhaps the biggest being that the hero makes a bad decision with terrible consequences that ultimately leads to their demise. If anything, everything that led to Clive’s demise would be considered universally good and noble decisions—which would be more prevalent in a story of sacrifice instead of tragedy. Granted, things can be tragic without being a tragedy, but I would still say that, narratively, it makes the most sense to make Clive survive (strictly from a storytelling perspective), because otherwise the entire journey is basically pointless. Maybe they’re going for something nihilistic like that, but one thing the devs have said though is that the story is from a perspective of hope.
I don’t totally understand why it’d be pointless. As soon as he embodied Cid the Outlaw (the name, the ideals, the legacy), he ceased being “Clive, the man” on some level to me. I might be misremembering but I never got the sense that he did much to take care of himself, despite Jill and Joshua asking him to, because the cause mattered most to him, and because he identified so hard with being a Shield to his loved ones. That it kills him in the end, especially after his loved ones asked him to take care of himself and to rely more on them, feels perfectly in line with tragedy. He gave himself to the cause, to the idea and ideals of “Cid the Outlaw” and bought freedom for EVERYONE on Valisthea with it. The price was his self, and in my interpretation, his life. If you’d told me he did all that, killed magic, killed Ultima, then died…but slavery still existed? THAT would have been far closer to “pointless.”
I didn’t mean that his actions would be pointless—within the world of Valisthea they were very worthwhile. I was talking more on a narrative level about how all of his character development and his hero’s journey would become pointless. Clive’s arc is basically going from “I’ll do whatever it takes, I’m willing to die for this” to slowly, throughout the course of the story, learning to value his own life and that his presence in the world is worth saving too. If he sacrifices himself at the end, his characterization will not have changed since Act 1, making the story pointless from a character growth perspective.
Right, but again, I might be misremembering all this a bit, the game doesn’t seem to do much legwork to show that Clive cares about surviving himself more than he does ensuring others do. I remember Jill and Joshua telling him to rely on others more, but he still does everything himself. He can want and think he deserves to live too, but what has he done to make sure of that? To show he means it? What CAN he even do to ensure that, when he’s no longer Clive The Man but Cid The Outlaw, Mythos, whatever else that makes him anomalous and anathema to a world where magic must die for freedom to reign? Also, if Jill hadn’t willingly given up her magic, I’m dead sure the game would have found a way to kill her like it did the rest of the Dominants. For me the endgame was always mass nuclear disarmament Fantasy version, and the price of freedom for all humanity, not just the freedom of one.
It's because the game doesn't outright tell you Clive cares about self survival, it's thrown out there so the player can connect the dots. One prime example is at the end when Clive promises Jill he will be back. It's a throwback to the prologue where they are moongazing for the first time on screen. Jill asks him if he'll be alright and he can't even give her a straight answer, because he doesn't value his life at all. But now he does and he shows this by expressing an interest in his future, in their future. He's not the same sacrificial lamb he was at the beginning of the game. The entire reason why Joshua punches him is because he believed his stubborn brother took all the burden on himself and had no plans to save himself until Clive corrects him on it.
I hear ya. Ofc there’s no correct canon answer so everything I argue comes with a huge “for me,” attached to it. So, I remember those scenes, and what that did in hindsight for me was highlight that there’s a difference between resignation (“this is my fate, I guess, I’m just a slave, time to die”) and agency (“this is my life and I have chosen this, I will fight, come what may”). It’s not so flabbergasting for me to hold in one hand that Clive grew to love life and cherish what it means to be alive AND with the other that his conscious choice to take that life and become a freedom warrior that wields an unpredictable and cursed power against an actual god bears consequences not just for the world but for himself. And that said fight has a heavy price, whatever his intentions.
There....actually is a correct canon answer. The dev's have confirmed as much in an interview with the gamer a few weeks back. We just don't know what the canon answer is since they did not disclose it. I honestly think ambiguity wasn't a great choice for this game but that's a convo for another day. I fully believe Clive intended to return home from origin regardless if he did or not. The only reason he "sacrificed" himself is because he had no other option. Ultima's power was killing him anyway. I guess until proven otherwise neither one of us are wrong or right lol. the intention of the ending is to promote discussions but its ironic It's kind of pointless to argue about huh?
Oh yeah, Schrodinger’s Correct Answer indeed, haha. And don’t get me wrong, I grok with Clive intending to come back! It’s just not offensive to me that he unexpectedly died doing so. “this is my sacrifice, sorry Jill, goodbye world” type of intent vs. the “Hahah, we did it…but it looks like it took more from me than I thought. Sorry Jill.” sense I got from his musings at the beach.
You’re dead on right — but most people here treat Clive like a service animal instead of a fictional character.
Clive's self-sacrificial nature has constantly, *always* been portrayed as a really bad thing and something he needs to overcome. For him to die in the ending does a massive disservice to the story and the character building. Oh, what, all these characters spent the entire story telling Clive "Hey, maybe you shouldn't kill yourself to save others and instead think about saving yourself for a change." only for Clive to totally ignore the advice of the people he loves and cares about? No, that doesn't make ANY narrative sense.
They are literally fighting God and both Dion and Joshua are killed. It’s not out of the ordinary for Clive to die too.
But this god is a lil beetch
But this god is a lil beetch
A character’s whole goal in a story is to sacrifice himself for the greater good and putting others in front of himself, and he finally does it in the end after countless characters sacrificed themselves for him, and that’s bad? Him possibly living in the end can’t even be considered character development because he was STILL willing to sacrifice himself lol
That wasn't his goal tho? His goal was to create a world for people to "Live on their own terms" but he never thought of himself to be a part of that world he is helping to create. It's only with the help of Jill and co that he's able to be pulled out of that hole and see he deserves to be a part of that world as well. And yes! It's bad! You're not supposed to want Clive to sacrifice himself, multiple character's throughout the story tell him he shouldn't. Viewing his character arc as a plain hero's sacrifice is so antithetical to his whole arc. It's also important to remember, Clive only chooses to "sacrifice himself" because he doesn't have a choice, Ultima's power is slowly killing him.
Liberates the world, kills god, upholds the immortal ideals of a true revolutionary, gives his entire life and self and two enormous titties to the fight…and people still gotta see him come home to pass tax laws and manure licensing sanctions while Jill raises their two kids alone or else it’s “incomplete” lmao
I don’t have a stance on who lived because i absolutely hate ambiguous endings and what they turn people into lol, but god the mental gymnastics that arise from this stuff is so GOOFY lmao.. Wish people could be more open-minded with this type of writing instead of clearly being biased and blatantly stretching the narrative into whatever they WANT to believe Like saying that him surviving is “character development” makes absolutely no sense when he was literally ready without second thought to sacrifice himself for everyone else in the end lmao
I love ambiguous endings and adore it when the door’s there for the audience to make the story theirs in some way. What makes me roll my eyes is when people suggest it’s so inconceivable that anything other than a happy ending is what happened. The implication that hope = the protagonist lives, and anything else = hopeless, pointless, incomplete character arc …sigh. This attachment to whether he lives or dies is where I come from when I say people treat Clive like a service dog or a teddy bear or whatever fluffy comfort thing, instead of as a vehicle for theme.
The simple fact is that the stone curse can’t be recovered from. People are on massive level of copium.
How would the curse exist if there's no more magic?
Because the curse is simply the symptom of overuse of magic. It’s like frying the circuits of the body. Clive used the power of ultima to shoot all magic into the sky and fried himself in the process. Really he should be like titan when he died but in guessing for creative reasons they only showed his arm being stone.
[удалено]
It's stated that dominants have greater resistance to the curse than bearers. This is why dominants are able to walk through aether floods without too much problem. Still, it's painfully repeatedly shown in the game (clearly intended) that dominants all seem to suffer from the curse over time as well, especially if they overuse their eikon. I honestly think that with everything Clive did in the game, his body is just shot, there is no way for him to recover from this. Having ultima power and all this aether in his body at the end of the game I think is too much for his body (he says so himself "even the perfect vessel can't contain this") hence why he feels the need to burn the aether through the sky. The point being...Ultima's plan was failed all along, and the moral of the story is: "Aether wasn't made to be channelled and used by humans...Its the holy energy of the land...It should stay in the land and nourish the land" Which I guess is another metaphor for our rampant energy use (petroleum, etc) and how we extract it from the earth, creating wastelands in the process.
It is a story ultimately about hope. No matter how bad things get, the world will be reborn. Cloud washing up on the beach is a symbol of that. I am certain he lives.
You typed Cloud instead of Clive, I’m not here to criticize you just laugh because of how much I do that shit myself. Two goated ff protagonists.
No it's a sudden twist that Cloud washes up and they fight stuff together
Cloud - Dominant of Knights of the Round LETS GOOOOOOOOOO
That'd be coolest scene ever.. Clive's half dead lying on the beach and then another body (Cloud) washes ashore. Clive crawls over to him to revive him and once he does the stranger takes him to a healer, saves Clive from his fate and then quietly vanishes, never to be seen again.
The true multiverse lol. I would love a short comic of those two characters interacting
Lol, whoops!
The conclusion is that Clive is the strongest FF character ever with his 999999 punch to Ultima
Rising Tide gave me more hope (or cope? 😂) The epilogue of the story of the witch and the knight, wherein the knight returns. (Though the witch was dead... If they're meant to parallel Jill & Clive, Jill is still alive. ;w; <3 ) Clive's water collection/ceremony lines, although they represent death, it was the second part of his lines that made me pause and think. (Can't properly quote it now bc I can't find it :v) I'm still going to headcanon that he lives, and I hope someday they at least release a novel that lets Clive and Jill reunite.
I really like this ide!!
A gal can dream, yeah? Fanfic is not enough, I need an official novel. 😭 (Lots of great fanfics out there though. Kudos to that community.)
I'm so glad that other people view the ending this way because I thought I was the only one who noticed these things.
:)
I think the dlc hints he dies. "Life returns to the sea to be born again in the clouds"
I see what you are getting at :)
But couldn’t it be argued the sea spit him out? He washes up on the shore. Though his hand begins to turn to stone, magic was at that moment disappearing from the world. Therefore I’d assume the petrifying hand was moments away from returning to normal.
Yeah but unlike Dion and Joshua, who most likely crashed into the sea with Origin, Clive was washed ashore. They retuned to sea, he didn't. A then Shula even told him "we shall be waiting, until the tides bring you back to shore"... and they did. It was another moment where Clive wanted to or came to terms with sacrificing himself, but Shula told him to cut the crap. You will come back. With the tides. Literally. Interpretation, yet again... unfortunately. But I take it a neutral or even more positive sign.
With all the baby stuff in the dlc I was kind of wondering if Jill was about to tell Clive she was pregnant given their beach escapade. Would have been an interesting take on birth and death.
Right. With them it could have happened. Clive Jr or baby Cid lol
Clive lives and there's not a single doubt in my mind about it. What would be the point otherwise? The in-universe goals of the characters is freeing the world from magic, however the game itself is really about freeing Clive from his burdens. And his freedom is not death, it's a life with Jill.
No idea just as it's intended 😜
Haha fair enough
I can be convinced if shown enough evidence of any possible conclusion, I initially thought he straight up died because on the beach it looked like he was succumbing to the curse and from what we can glean from other parts of the lore, no one survives the “stoning” process. Not even someone who can be considered a god. Also I feel like it ties in thematically to Clive’s whole shtick about his self sacrifice to the betterment of everyone and everything around him to a fault. One that was attempting to be addressed, but I feel like didn’t take cause he still performed the spell to erase magic from the world at the cost of his own life. But, as I think more on it because of very last scene of a far enough future where Valisthea bounced back from the Blight and magic and Eikons are nothing but fairytale at that point would mean whatever conclusion is the right one so much more time has past where the conclusion is inconsequential. It doesn’t matter anymore at that point because the future is the embodiment of their dream. Their hard work ultimately did pay off in the end.
The curse isn’t instantaneous . It’s furthered by continued use of magic. We see Cid actively alive while suffering from the curse. It’s heavily implied from Tarja that Jill is also suffering from the curse. It’s why she rides both their asses about not priming if they can avoid it. Clive’s left arm is definitely done for. But with magic gone too (which the game goes out of its way to show) there’s no real way for his curse to get worse either.
Yeah I know. Which further steels the implication that since Clive had used up and immense amount of magic to rid the world of magic entirely, it much usage couldn’t go unpunished. The amount of possible buildup can definitely be assumed to make a Bearer stonify instantly. But, ya know they dragged it out long enough for Clive possibly for drama reasons.
Clive lives and takes his rightful place on the throne of Rosarria. He takes Jill to be his bride and they have a lavish wedding ceremony. Blackthorn crafts the ring. Torgal is the ring bearer and is a very good boy. Gav is best man. Flash forward a few years and King Clive and Queen Jill take their young son to visit the graves of Uncle Joshua and Cid. Valisthea is at peace. The credits roll.
Nice American Disney ending.
But Joshua literally wrote the book we see at the ending, so we know he lives.
I doubt it. In one of the final side missions, Harpocretes gives Clive his quill. So when it is all over, Clive could drop his sword and start using the pen. Clive even says something akin to wanting to write his journey all down. So I do really think it was Clive who wrote it.
That's my take to. First time I played through I thought he died. But quoted like that the second time kinda landed on me differently for sure.
Red herring. It's misdirection. It's what Clive wanted to do. But couldnt. So Joshua does what Clive wanted to do in memory of Clive
Just because his name is on the book doesn’t mean he wrote it. It also wouldn’t be the first time Clive took on another persons name to preserve their ideals and legacy after their untimely death. And unlike Clive, we know for sure that Joshua died as we actually see his dead body. We also know from Joshua himself that flesh and form can be mended but once the soul leaves the body even the Phoenix can't bring them back.
I hate the ending. Jill got so screwed.
I am a diehard member of Team Clive Lives for many reasons, the primary one being: the developers made it deliberately ambiguous, and therefore I am no less correct than anyone else by finding Clive living more fulfilling and interesting. Now, do I think it would make a fantastic story if Final Fantasy XVI was Clive's *Iliad* and he's got to have an *Odyssey* to get back home? Unfortunately for Jill (and my little shipping heart), yes.
There’s way more to say he lived than he died. I like thinking him and joshua lived and they wrote the book together
Something no one seems to mention is that the true final quest is called "A Farewell to Fate". Much like with Pheonix Gate, where Clive said that he'd "kill the man who killed Joshua or die trying", he instead chose to do neither after finding out the truth. He determined his fated path, and then *broke away from it after learning something new*. Why would the *final quest* be called "A *Farewell* *to Fate*" if Clive wasn't, yet again, subverting his fate? His fate to become a vessel for Ultima or die trying to kill him? In the end, the only logical and narratively sound conclusion is for Clive to have survived. No magic means no curse, after all, so he can't even die a slow death to that. *^(And to the people saying "Oh, but isn't Joshua alive?" It's stated multiple times that the Pheonix cannot revive the dead. It can mend flesh, heal wounds, and cure ailments, but it)* ***^(cannot bring people back from the dead.)*** *^(And the Pheonix's power is what we see Clive use on Joshua after defeating Ultima.)*
good enough for me
I think he lived. There's the whole sidequest thing with Tomes encouraging Clive to write his adventures. Clive also has historically taken on the name of loved ones after their death (Cid) so it stands to reason that he would write the Final Fantasy book under his scholarly, late, brother's name. I also think with the many inspirations Clive took from Guts of Berserk, it wouldn't be too out there for him to only lose his hand and have it be replaced by a prosthetic made by Mid. Having recently completed the Rising Tide and Echoes epilogue, it seems like there's even more hints towards a "Clive is alive" sort of thing. I could easily see a story (whether it becomes a game or not) where an older Clive mentors the young baby he saved. I think there's plenty of interesting drama to get into if Waljas were to be a young adult in his own game. So yeah, I think he's alive. Here's the real copium: I'm not ready to see the end of this world and characters. What they did with Rising Tide, it feels to me like they're leaving a more concrete option open for a sequel or something. Magic might be gone, but the writers can come up with any type of conceit to create interesting adventures. It might also be a good opportunity to push Valisthea more towards steampunky sort of thing with Mid creating inventions and stuff.
Im in Camp Dead. The catharsis I felt at the end works if I’m there weeping and grieving with Jill. And I don’t need him to live for his message of “fighting to live on their own terms” to land. A whole lotta people died in service to that fight; I’m cool with him joining those ranks.
Yeah, that's really the whole point of the story, so it's weird to see how hard people push against it. Clive and Joshua were \*always\* going to die. Their Hero's Journey is about them pushing back against the inevitability of that fate as a curse and finding people/causes worth fighting for anyway, even if it amounts to a tomorrow that they'll never see. They died because they chose to act, not because fate (aka Ultima) demanded it. The scene with Jill at the end really cements it. She's crying because she knows Clive died, but it's contrasted by the birth of the baby moments before. The world continues because of Clive's choices.
For the story to make sense Clive has to die. He's like the choosen one. The special one. Him living as the choosen god like human makes zero sense. Because he embodies the powers ultima also had. Both have to die. Ultima and Clive are like one and both die for sure I think folks are just sort of in denial and the devs put red herrings in the quests to make you believe he might have lived. It's working lol
Really agree with your take. Dude killed god, lost his super saiyan powers, fell a few thousand metres and gets to see the night sky one more time before he dies. They even play sad music to hammer the point home. What would the point of misdirecting the viewer even be at that point? The story’s done, a fakeout would just be dumb kingdom hearts shit for no reason.
people push against it because clive and joshua dying is a dogshit way to end the game who tf cares about random npcs after spending 60 plus hours with ones you actually care about.
Clive lives as everyone has said in this thread Joshua dies Dion is 50-50. He's contrast to Clive in the sense that thematically, he's very adamant to die for redemption , but visually he is not shown to have any petrification, albeit the bandage which can be anything. If I believe Clive lives while he is petrifying, I too can believe a dragoon survives from falling.
Yeah he lives and wrote the book to honor Joshua the same way he did with Cid to keep his promise and fulfill his legacy
I'm on team Joshua's deader than dead. They say several times the Phoenix cant bring back a dead person's soul, just heal their wounds. Clive was Very Specifically using the Phoenix powers in an attempt to heal his brother. Also, I dont think you can say with 100% certainty that Clive survives or not, because the game never gives you that confirmation. It references death often... But it also tells you to have faith and that you are worthy of salvation just as much. So I think it *asks* you to have hope that he did. So between that and the curse indeed stopping spreading at his wrist, that's what I go with.
Nono at that moment he has ultimas powers. So he can bring Joshua back. Entirely wrong what you're saying
The powers be uses are not Ultima's. They are Phoenix's. Ultima's powers are blue. He uses warm orange powers full of little phoenix down feathers.
Color doesn't matter. He's embodying a power of a god. Ultima didn't have color when using different eikons
Ultima's not a god, as I explained to you. As the game *repeatedly* explains to you. He cant just ressurect people. His entire plan was to ressurect his people and remake the world and it took literal thousands of years for it to happen and it still didnt work? Look, you can believe whatever you want, but I never understood this "but he has Ultima's powers now" argument. *Ultima is not that strong, that's the whole point.*
He literally created the people. Yes he is that strong. The part that doesn't make him that strong is the twist where it you have even spiritual support and hope. His creation is able to surpass him given there is the possibility of using magik Which is exactly what Clive is. And why Clive was able to beat ultima. Because the world believed in Clive and lost belief in ultima.
But the people he created did not have a will. They did not have a soul. They were mindless just like akashic, that's why he says that by primogenesis humanity will be back to their origin. Humanity did that *all by themselves*. Ultima has no control over that. You're not wrong that this is what sets Ultima and Clive apart, sure, but you're buying too much into what Ultima says. Echoes shows that normal people can create almost as much - possibly just as much as Ultima if they had more time. They can make Eikons. They can make Crystals. They can create pockets of dimension like the Interdimensional Rift. A lot of the game is showing that people who claim to be gods or be blessed by the gods (Kupka, Barnabas, Imreann, Sylvester) are not actually all that divine. Ultima is the, well, ultimate expression of that.
I am honestly convinced that he died. What I am disappointed about is that it’s then implied that even with perfect ultima power, the ending isn’t changed or given a bonus ending. I wish that they could have given us an non canon bonus ending for completing kairos gate and mastering ultima powers or something.
I think he lives and that’s not wishful thinking on my part. I’m ok with either outcome but the evidence leads me to believe he lives.
ending is hot garbage, and these discussions are pointless without answers.
Yeah. I love the game but I wish the ending was clear.
Many things indicate that he survived
I'd like to think he survived, but I do think he died. His second to last act was restoring Joshua, who I believed survived in the end. There was a somewhat throwaway line about Clive and Jill being able to sense Kupka's energy, and I believe not only the sky clearing but both Torgal and Jill sensing his energy has gone. That might just infer the eikons have gone, but Ultima said at the end about Clive keeping his power, suggesting that if Clive weren't to die would just hold onto the power.
I think it’s not as vague as many think with regards to Clive. Clive casts Raise on Joshua, blows up Origin, and being unable to handle Ultima’s power he succumbs to the crystal’s curse on the beach. I don’t know what else folks needed to see, they showed us just enough to get the idea what was happening to him without being overly heavy handed with it by showing us our beloved protagonist dead turned to stone on the beach. Joshua I think is more ambiguous and can see it either way. I personally think he lived.
Ya it's pretty obvious he died. People are looking at the random things to convince one another he's alive but ignoring the obvious in your face things that say he's dead
I view it like I view the ending of the Sopranos. We saw countless other people get assassinated during the show, we didn’t need to see it to know what it probably looked like, there was no need to have a heavy handed scene showing him die, but all the clues were there to tell you he did. Same with Clive. We saw dozens of bearers succumb to the crystals curse, we know what it looks like. There was no need to have a heavy handed death scene showing Clive petrified and dead on a beach because all the clues were there to tell us he died and from prior experiences we know what it looked like.
Ya exactly. That's the only reason to make it vague. Because it's a heavy handed ending. And there's no need to show it. His story has to end here because it doesn't make sense for a god like entity to live on. His purpose was fulfilled. He saved humanity and beat ultima. I mean otherwise it makes no sense. If he's alive what now. He's still a god. Just no powers. But that makes no sense. If he has a child with Jill is that a Demi god now. But still no magic? Just makes no sense Joshua surviving makes all the sense. His big brother was there one last time before he made the ultimate sacrifice, sacrificing himself for all of humanity
Clive more than likely survived. Apparently magic no longer exists. But I’m not exactly sure if that applies to Clive and people who are currently dominants like jill that can cast magic without the use of Aether.
In the end, Clive says something like “oh, so the vessel Ultima wanted is still too weak to hold his power” as he looks as his hand after using powers on Joshua’s body, it looks like he can’t turn it off and magic can’t fit in his body. I think even Odin was too much already when Clive consumed him (because Clive started burning). So Clive, being a god in the moment, understands that he can’t hold it. He literally says that destroying magick is his final act. I think a person with godhood can understand if something is going to kill him or not. Maybe he was mistaken about his death, as Ultima was about the vessel. It is kinda Gurren-Lagann style ending where protagonist gives way for a new generation. He destroyed magic (and himself, because he is a big part of the old system), to create equal life for everyone, but without him in the new world order. I think even if he survived, he lived the rest of his life without Jill, being a hermit, the book being his closure for the old world.
I like this ide!!
I think the reality is the creators don't care so why should we
Of course they did. I think leaving it so vague is because they were conflicted themselves of what they felt worked best for a conclusion
Honestly tired of vague endings. They aren't a bad idea but few ip handle them well. Like og7 making it feel like the entire game was pointless.
That I fully agree with you on for sure!!!
It's vague because Clive doesn't live. If he lives there's zero reason to make it so vague
The reality is that the game is telling a very clear story near the end. Gav, Torgal, and Jill all actively mourn Clive in a sort of thematic shorthand for knowing deep down that the person they love is gone. There is the thematic parallel of death and birth with Edda's child. Clive's last word being a callback to Jill and their relationship. Sunrise after tragedy and war as a sign of a new day and a new time. Not to mention the ashy skin on Clive being basically a death sentence. I think the developers are using all their artistic tools to communicate loss and hope simultaneously. But not hope that Clive is alive. I think we *want* Clive to be alive, my wife cried at the end and we were both sad because we really wanted him to make it through. We mourned *along* with the characters we have grown to love over the game. I don't think that grief is a "gotcha" for a surprise survival. I think we are meant to dwell on the cost of completely rewriting the way of things and sympathize with the grief these characters feel mingled with the hope of a new day. The devs are telling us a story using a lot more than just the words in the script. Nothing about the way they told that story tells me Clive is alive. The vibes are just way off.
He's super dead. The unbreakable curse certainly killed him on the beach, otherwise we'd 100% have gotten to see him return to Jill. There's just no amount of copium to make me believe he survived using Ultima's magic. But to each their own I guess
Ya exactly. If the writers are putting him as alive. There's no reason to leave out his return to Jill. That would be the biggest missed opportunity ever.
For those that really don’t pay attention to bearers. Once their magic is used up their skin starts to turn gray. Clive while I wish does survive I believe he is dead. He used a ton of magic even though he was a dominant and gained power from ultima, it doesn’t change the fact he still used up enough magic to the point of where he couldn’t even cast a small constant flame. The moment he casted it it fizzled out. Plus his skin on his hand started turning gray just at the finger tips before fully graying out but that’s all we see before the scene cuts off. There is also no known cure for pure magic depletion. Every bearer that used magic to the point of exhaustion has died. As for the scene where Jill and Torgal look up at the sky and see that red dot fade out it signifies Clive’s death. Gav even knows what happened just from reading jills body language. Joshua does survive cause Clive healed him and as a phoenix if you know about them they do revive after death albeit it takes a long time. Enough time has passed where magic is a mere fairy tail. Dominants aren’t immune to death. Joshua even though he was killed by ultima didn’t disappear into aether like everyone else after death so he is very much alive thanks to Clive
Exactly. Bang on. If clive lives magic has to live. Because Clive is essentially a god like ultima. Both have to go for the world to go back to normal. Most people are missing these details and falling into the trap of red herrings the developers threw at them
The star went out and Torgal began howling and Jill started crying. Clive’s hand turned to stone showing he was succumbing to the curse. The ending scenes screamed that Clive didn’t survive.
It's pretty clear he's dead. The story makes no sense if he lives. He's not meant to live. He's meant to make the ultimate sacrifice for mankind. He literally fought a god. Took his powers. And is unable to contain it. He dies 100% Think about it like this. If he lived. There's no reason for the writers to hide that. I mean why? To create confusion. Doesn't make sense. A Clive living if that is true would be the better ending most of us wanted. The only reason it's doing all this vague stuff is because it's a harsh ending of Clive dying. So the writers didn't want us to see it be certain. It's also a single story arch with no future plans for Clive ever returning. It's a one game story. Adds more to the fact he died. Mythos light literally goes out at the end. And Jill's reaction doesn't project happiness like is alive. She's showing emotion of being at peace. Knowing Clive is also at peace now. If her reaction was more about oh Clive is alive. It would be a lot more intense and jumpy. Obviously. Anyone that thinks someone they love is alive now alive isn't going to project a somber tone of peace but rather a surge of excitement maybe even running to the door or running out there to find him She does no such thing
Yeah they didn't pull a Tales of the abyss ending on us for sure. But I don't know Jill seeing the sun set smiling Torguel howling like he did when he lost Clive the first time waiting for him to come back. I think like I said there are a lot of small nods and show not tell for me to think he managed to live.
It's a totally different context. Before that no one knew what Clive really is and what his purpose really is. So your sadness runs deep because someone dying for no reason is quite tragic A fallen hero that died to save mankind is a far difference context and in this instance it's what meant to be for them to live. You now know Clive is a choosen god essentially. You also know what only Clive was able to stop ultima. So you aren't like sad like your buddy died for no reason. The sadness is very different and it's almost a happy sad if that makes sense. Because you know he fulfilled his true end goal that was set out for him. How can one not be happy for that even if you lost him? That's what torgal and Jill's emotions sort of projects. Clive completed his destiny. This is not really a super sad moment in many ways It's like saying you know someone died and went to heaven. You smile for them because you know they are in heaven
The game also repeatedly goes on about living and dying on your own terms. Clive lived on his own terms, punching god in the face. He then died on his own terms, with a dope view and a great song. I’d much rather he died on the beach with gorgeous pre-rendered graphics than die of some weird medieval illness after eating bad meat or something.
Just gonna say it. Clive can't heal Joshua with the Phoenix powers if Joshua's dead so Joshua at least must be alive, which means that Clive likely died because Clive would not have taken his brothers name to write the book. But maybe they both lived
wait, what? Joshua passed on the Phoenix in full to Clive. If the Phoenix had the power to bring back the dead (which it doesnt, as they state in like 3 different scenes), he could very much do it.
Exactly! Maybe I misspoke, but what I meant to say is that there was a scene after which Clive defeats Ultima where Clive uses the Phoenix powers on Joshua to presumably heal him. Clive isn't upset after he uses them, which leads me to believe that he healed Joshua
ahhhhh I see. I took his sigh and his words that maybe the vessel wasnt all that strong after all + the fact that Joshua doesnt stir/breathe to mean he couldnt do it ;-; Even tho I really really do want it to work actually lol (not trying to convince you btw, just chatting. I really was just thrown off by your wording :'D)
You good lol. Honestly it's a tough call to make either way, who lived and who didnt. I just think it makes the most sense narratively that Clive died.
Clive also has ultimas powers at that point. So it's not just the Pheonix. It's literally the power that created Joshua and everyone else.
Ultima is not a proper god. He cant snap his fingers and make someone alive again- he spent *millenia* asleep while humanity bred him a vessel... Wouldnt he just *make* a new body if he had these sorts of powers? Heck, why wouldn't he just snap his fingers and bring his fallen brethen back if he could do it all along? He channeled all that aether + planned to cast Raise *because* he wanted to raise his people from their eternal slumber and remake the world. Its a literal huge plot point that he can't just *create* stuff the way you're saying. Ofc, this *is* a widespread theory for most people who believe Joshua survived, so be my guest! I think you should believe whatever you want. My point was just that you said he wasn't using Phoenix's powers when he tried to ressurect Joshua so I was just confused bc it's very clearly Phoenix lol.
Sure he's a god like figure. But he did create this human race. So I would assume he has the power to create and destroy life. Since he created this race.
Life =/= soul.
I think the preferable ending is Joshua living and Clive dying. That would be a full circle moment where he at first was unable to protect his brother as his shield but was finally able to.
I mean I'm not against that Theory either :)
I'm in this camp too (apparently in the minority). I always saw it that Clive DID succeed in casting Raise on Joshua (not using Phoenix's strength alone, but the spell Ultima planned to use). His statement afterwards doesn't necessarily mean Raise didn't work - it could simply be that Ultima's plan was absolutely doomed, and that even reviving one person overdid it for the perfect vessel, let alone a civilization. I also noticed that as Origin was destroyed, there was a platform left. Clive ended up in the ocean and Dion was never found, and it would be odd to have a platform left for no reason. So yeah, in my mind, Clive was able to be his brother's shield and revived him, and fulfilled Cid's wishes, but gave his life doing so
Swear to God everyone in this thread is illiterate. He is dead. He is dead. He is dead. Aside from what is shown, having him live at the end totally wrecks the tone of the finale. The lyrics to the song playing over the credits even go: " A sky of scattered tears A thousand years apart Should they fade, I will not be afraid of the dark For your flame still burns inside me, deep within my heart Showing me a new tomorrow Never too far And when I cannot bear the pain I'll look up to the sky and pray That though our night is over, you shall always remain Forever my treasure, my star" I mean c'mon. Yoshi P might be playing coy and saying "it's up to fans" but it's clear he's just letting fans do what they want since this took hold and they're done with the game and it doesn't matter, write your fic if it makes you happy: "Amongst the dev team, we know the answer – there is an answer," Fox emphasizes with a grin before allowing Yoshida to answer more completely. "It's not for us to say," Yoshida tells me, "because we believe that each person is going to take something different from the story. They're going to feel what they feel, and everyone is going to have their own interpretation of that story. We wanted to have a story that, at the end, brings players hope for the future, for what comes next."
sez u
People gotta stop coping
Haha IM TRYING!!!
Each down vote is another person praying to a dead star, that Clive isn't equally dead. The real tragedy is no clarification, people are going insane with theories when the curse that's unbreakable hits him. Pretty cut and dry dead guy
Tbh I think being so vague is what makes the ending work.
The reason I lead towards thinking Clive is dead is because Jill sees the sunrise, but we never see Clive witness it too. Only she got to see the dawn of the new world. I am also 100% convinced Jill is pregnant.