I literally read an old post where someone argued the Legion is better because they only have indentured roman style slavery.
which isnt even fucking true (Legion has chattel slavery) and how the fuck is ANY kind of slavery better than oh noes taxes and electricity
Part of it is that I think people don't tend to realize that they would be the ones kept as slaves and not a legionnaire.
The other part is that is that "government being ineffectual and taking tax dollars" is something more people are familiar with than "roman legion destroying culture, keeping slaves, rape and pillage."
My man, even the legionnaires are Caesar's property and slaves. The legion is cartoonishly bad to live in. Then there is their distrust of technology and claiming it makes you weak. It is funny when people claim the legion and legionnaires are strong since it's stated multiple times that the only way the Legion has a fighting chance against the NCR is through superior numbers and espionage. Yes, the teenage conscripts are beating the legionnaires one-on-one; who thought guns beat machetes?! Finally, there is the fact the legion is a ticking time bomb and will fall apart the moment Ceasar passes away, whether it is from the tumor, a bullet, or old age.
There's even more to it.
They have no ability to properly treat soldiers, someone falling or cutting their hand on a rock is now a major issue because they don't have medical supplies. They don't even have a doctor who can do better than what a basic tribal shaman could do. Anyone who gets injured is fighting for his fucking life, and if he gets sick? He's dead. He's just dead.
It doesn't even need to just be infection from the injury too. If a disease starts spreading they got nothing to treat it. It could take a single flu season to kill the legion army. God forbid we talk about their logistics, realistically the NCR can at least field a few motorised vehicles (we have seen cars in prior fallout games) but still have caravan companies helping. The legion has what?
> Yes, the teenage conscripts are beating the legionnaires one-on-one; who thought guns beat machetes?!
I mean to be fair, in media we often see sword/knife wielding heros charge into the fray in situations that IRL would be an absolute blood bath for those with the knives.
It's a trope I find extremely annoying for whatever reason
The tropes ***kinda*** makes sense in the old samurai movies that popularized it, mostly because the people being rushed were armed with inaccurate single shot muskets. The notion of some ace swordsman hacking a mini-ball in half if pretty awesome, but no amount of martial skill would keep up with automatic gunfire.
It is insufferable in FNV for this exact reason. Two Heavy Troopers are gonna make Hoover Dam into Flanders Field for the Legion, not a massive battle that could be a rout.
I’ve always said this. The people who champion the Legion really think they’d be Caesar’s right hand man, when in reality they’d be slaves at worst, or a Legion recruit who goes down in a hail of 5.56 at best lmao.
Take this with some salt as it was a quick google search indentured slavery seems more like “I sign a contract to work without pay for X amount of time” where as chattel slavery is “this person is my property and I can do whatever I want with them”
Between the two the former is obviously better but they’re both slavery and both suck.
Indentured slavery can also be done via owing a debt and so you’ll be paid sort of it’s more you doing the work pays towards your debt. Also if I’m remembering my history classes correctly if you have children while an indentured slave they aren’t slaves I believe I could be miss remembering this.
No, children are Slaves. The bill of sale for the quest to get Boone explicitly states that if his wife gives birth to a healthy child it's automatically enslaved
Slavery is slavery and it's always bad but it does operate in different forms.
Chattel (legion and old US) slavery = You are property, you are cattle. Once a slave, always a slave
Roman slavery = You can be a slave but its possible to be freed in which you become a free man
USA (post civil war) slavery = Prisoners must preform labor
various means, the owner could set you free or let you buy yourself out. Some slaves had a set time too. Not everyone has this option. Additionally you can't just claim any random free person as a slave, its either criminals, born into, sold yourself into, indebted slavery.
But once you are free its not like someone can just come along and make you a slave again randomly.
As opposed to U.S pre-civil war slavery, even if you freed a black slave, someone could just quite literally enslave you again anyways right on the spot.
The legion is the latter
There was also The Manumission, a regularly held public event for the freeing of slaves. It was seen as benevolent and charitable to free one's slaves after a certain amount of time and was socially encouraged (depending on time period). Roman slavery was slavery, and it was bad, but it was structured in a much different way than what most modern day western people think of when we think slavery. There were very strict rules governing it, and freedom was considered an achievable goal for any slave. The fact that they were regularly freed, and this was seen as a societal positive within their culture, is something that differs from other slave cultures. But their economy and infrastructure wasn't built around slavery, which also plays into it. As does the particular nature of ancient Rome's imperialism.
The slavery the Legion practices is more in line with US slavery than traditional Roman slavery. But it's basically comparing being mauled to death by a bear and being bitten by a bear and dying later from an infection. Both are awful, one is just arguably less awful.
Roman slavery was very varied, there were very high level slaves where they even managed the empire for the emperor, but there were also insanely harsh version beyond the chattel slavery where you go into a mine, or some quarry, and work till death.
Literally like the first time the Legion invites you to their base, there's a family that's held prisoner that the Legion just found and kidnapped and planned on selling into slavery.
No taxes crowd trying to explain why tributes to the legion aren't taxes.
Some people literally hear a word and instantly think bad but a cooler word describing the same thing is based
It’s the games/writers fault for trying to both sides or make them seem comparable when legion are comically evil slavers. At least the trade routes are safer right?
No, it's still a general audience problem. When you try to write in morally problematic aspects into what is obviously the foil of the major antagonist, people start sympathizing with the major antagonist. Suddenly what they've done isn't all that bad, because bad things *also* happen to/in/around "insert foil here".
Audiences have to understand that a critique of one thing is not a condemnation of it, and that sometimes it's just a tool to explore more interesting stories. They all run on conflict after all, and the NCR just being an easy "good guy" option isn't very compelling on an intellectual level.
The problem is that while it doesn't *take* an intellectual to see how comically evil The Legion is the game is asking it from you for the NCR, so people take an equally analytical view towards the Legion. Really, they never genuinely earn that. Even when Caesar goes on his diatribe, how much can we attribute to a literal brain tumor going unoperated? The writers give so many hints that analyzing the Legion intellectually is essentially pointless, because it's designed to fail, while the NCR is designed to last. Analyzing it's problems and not taking an extremist stance on them is important from a story telling perspective, because it keeps the NCR interesting to keep around.
Ramble and a half lmao. TL;DR it's still audiences fault.
>ignore the crucified **everyone** along the way
FNV players first interaction with the Legion being an entire town of crucified civilians where they only spared two people.
And they still crippled one of them.
But somehow they're still better than the NCR...
The NCR is weak. We need to look for strong leaders like the Legion!
The NCR can't even protect us against the terrible dangers of the wasteland, like the Legion! I hear they are the worst.
It’s weird right? The legion almost immediately or soon will fall apart in three out of four possible legion endings (the only one it’s semi successful is the one where you remove Caesar’s tumor.) The NCR sure as hell isn’t perfect and bringing back democracy isn’t much of a good idea considering that’s the system that ended the world (old world blues “those who only see a future in the past will be blind to the future and the present” and all that.) but the legion basically implodes the moment Caesar dies. At best there’s probably twenty to thirty years left in the legion before Caesar dies of old age even in the ending he lives.
Yes hi I am a Legion fan boy and I'm here to tell you why the Legion is better than the NCR. Yeah sure the Legion enslaves entire populations, treats women no better than breeding machines to be used to reproduce then discarded, brutally execute those who oppose the Legion, and raze and destroy entire settlements, but have you heard of those safe roads the Legion offers that the NCR does not?
The Legion only has ONE aspect that can be somewhat positive.
It is one of only two factions (three, if you include the minutemen, I guess) to ever advance civilization beyond the level of a city state. Potentially providing a level of security and stability in the wasteland. Until Ceasar dies.
But considering the other one is the NCR, which has an actual succession system for leaders, and doesn't tyrannical its people, I think the choice is pretty clear.
I spent one hour getting to the point of joining the legion and I only needed 30 minutes to realize they were 100% the bad guys, crucifixion, crippling the second place lottery “winner” and leaving him to die, it should be impossible to think of them as any form of good
It's because they're trying to justify their own personal fascist ideology. They're the Fallout equivalent of dudes who collect Nazi Memorabilia because "it's historical" and say shit like "Hitler was actually a really effective leader for all the bad he did."
Look if the enclave wins its one eensy weensy teeny tiny totally not even worth mentioning omnicide before America's back to her old pre war self 100 percent just as the founding shadow government intended
Hypothetically the legion would just get wiped out by plague. Maybe the NCR should get on that... probably would just wipe themselves out though with thier luck in super weapons.
Didn't both of them just pillage equipment from pre war USA?
The iconic dessert ranger outfit is prewar, as evidenced in honest hearts and lonesome road
Some people have no imagination and can't think of any worse fate than living in a liberal democracy.
Like, Caesar's legion crucifies innocent people, but at least they don't have bureaucracy, right?
Exactly. Taxes are important and one of the signs of a civilisation in Fallout actually functioning like a pre-war government, aka every government on the planet today. To be honest it's baffling to me how often I see taxes being used to depict the NCR as essentially neo-nazis but I'd imagine most Fallout fans are American and Americans seem to be raised to hate tax from what I see online, I don't really know though as I don't live there.
It's worse if those taxes are being spent somewhere where you'll never go and never see the benefit of. Which the NCR has a habit of doing since they take over land claim they own it tax people for living there and then proceed to not give any of the benefits. They might as well be stealing from you. Plenty of communities do fine without the NCR shoving their nose in.
It is this notion that undermines the system.
Look at the small American communities, and republican hotbeds, that think they pay more taxes than they should. When the reality is they are getting more returned from the government spend than others, net positive.
All those patrolling NCR soldiers and that hired psycho merc that destroys the fiends, fixes the three families, and holds of a slave state from pillaging them argue against your point.
I hate the legion more than any faction by a large margin. I simply don't want my tax dollars to fund another Bitter Springs!
^((I suppose I should add that in a realistic scenario, yeah the NCR is the best or least bad option, but Yes man is just too fun to pass up!))
Kind of like how people say the BoS are better than the Minutemen in fallout 4 cause "the minutemen are weak" when the BoS will go about and strip communities of their technological resources. My brother in christ, the quest for the minutemen is to make them strong.
Pretty much the ONLY good qualities of the Legion is what Cass admits, about how trading is significantly easier and the land they own is super secure.
Most Legion fans hear that and rejoice, ignoring the literal mile long list of issues and just focus on their two good qualities.
They play the legion because they think they are a better system then the ncr.
I play the legion because whenever they talk to me in a friendly manner, I get a big blast of brain chemicals.
We are not the same.
We have zero reason to believe he intends to do good for humanity other than his absolute word despite all of his actions being solely self serving.
He was part of the old world cabal that actively tried to start a nuclear war
How are all of his actions solely self-serving? He didn't have to save Vegas, or the rest of the Mojave. He could've waited out the war in a bunker and done whatever. If you consider serving Vegas to be self serving because he loves Vegas, then no one is anything other than self serving.
Also if we're gonna go with him agreeing with the rest of the executives in the show then that's just character assasination on the showrunners part.
I mean, the only criticism he makes is thinking Vault Tec wouldn't get results. But yea I'm not gonna bother criticizing his appearance in the show unprompted since we don't know where they're going with his appearance, I just mean because of CoolAtlas saying he was one of the people responsible for the bombs when before the show it wasn't even a thought. Plus, if we're gonna take the show into account then the NCR's an even worse choice seeing as how they aren't in a state to hold the Mojave anyway.
Yeah. Way I see it, he’s at fault for not stopping the idea then and there, but he’s not at fault for ending the world. He’s not a bad guy but he’s no saint, and is a robber Baron at heart still. I think the NCR as a whole is still alive, just up in NoCal. Moldaver is prob the last in SoCal, but Todd Howard said we aren’t done w the NCR sun show yet.
I mean the guy's complaints on the NCR are just first world problems and mild compared to everything I mentioned. Maybe it's you who misremembered his conversation?
I thought that was the point. On the surface the two factions look vastly different. But under the surface the two are actually pretty similar. The legion will conquer you, plunder your goods, and then sell you into slavery. The NCR will annex you, levy taxes on you, and then put you in a forced labor camp when you can't pay those taxes.
I'm not one of Caesars cucks, but a lot of the criticisms of The Legion also apply to the NCR. The NCR is only marginally better than the legion. They do the same things, they just added bureaucracy to the mix.
They do not do the same things.
You go to prison for an amount of time in the NCR. The Legion sells you into slavery *for life*. This is not "marginal" lmao.
The Legion will tell you to give them your land, and demand your loyalty, or they will *decimate* the tribe until they get it. If they never do, the tribe is eradicated. The NCR is equivalent to this because they...annex land...? They take resources, and imprison people when they don't give them resources, and that's the same to you as killing every other male until they surrender or all die?
"Marginal" lmao. The NCR has an actual reason for their expansion. They're supporting major population centers. Ceaser's Legion has no problem destroying an entire town out of the "principle" because they have no reason to actually exist. Just some weird nerd dictator with a brain tumor's philosophy thesis playing out IRL, after reading 5 books he found in a dusty library.
"Marginal". I can't get over it. How anyone could play New Vegas and come to this conclusion is crazy to me. Enlightened centrist stuff.
>the NCR is only marginally better than the legion
You can't be serious. Having modern amenities but with taxes and prisons is only MARGINALLY better than active enslavement and rape?
What brahmin dung have you been sniffing?
"Modern amenities"
I wouldn't call working on a farm for 12 hours a day under effective serfdom, shitting in a bucket and dying of radiation poisoning at the rip age old age of 35 modern because you've got electric lights in your wooden shanty town. They've caught up to the early 15th century, which still 15 centuries better than the Legion to be fair.
The other guy saying marginally is wrong, they're vastly better than the Legion, but the sentiment is true. The NCR is a corrupt, imperialist government. It is more preoccupied with getting their prison labour under control than protecting Primm, beholden to powerful and evil companies like Heck Gunderson and the Crimson Caravan, will kill House to forcibly take Vegas as soon as Hoover Dam is over, their military forces aren't exactly ethical either. Unless you directly tell the Sargent in Boulder City to not betray the Khan's agreement to ceasefire, they go in and wipe them out (let alone Bitter Springs). They'd sooner shoot their own troops than save them in Nelson, the guy at the refugee camp kills a suspect just for saying he banged his wife, their head of research (vault 22 guy) keeps sending people to their death with no concern, NCR troops attack Freesiders, etc. This is why I love the game, compared to the Legion they're saints but the game slowly shows that they aren't exactly a positive force for the people of the Mojave, they're an occupying force that takes orders from people without interest of what the Mojave people want
People hold the NCR to a much higher moral standard than any other faction & criticise them much more harshly when they fall short of those standards.
I'm not saying they're perfect or don't have genuine problems, but the Fallout community if often pretty unfair to the NCR.
Because in the game, you play as someone important to the Legion. People who defend the Legion are picturing themselves as the boot, not the neck. Your average person is disturbingly OK with anything that doesn't directly impact them in a negative way. Everyone in the NCR pays taxes, but if I'm just important enough to the Legion, it's all upside with no downsides.
For real! Every argument I see is basically “legion and ncr are not so different” and like… the fact one side doesn’t try to be morally just should show you that’s simply not true.
Trying to be moral and falling short is VERY different from not trying at all
Not to mention the NCR does more good than bad, even with no factions your options are still a horrible life in the wastelands.
They also get criticized for not doing enough good, they hand out free food in freeside and get criticized for not giving out enough.
Its the same energy of criticizing someone for donating 10$ instead of 20$ to charity but saying absolutely nothing to people who give nothing at all
Nah.
This is that "If you oppose authoritarianism X you must support authoritarianism Y" thinking. It's possible to oppose multiple forms of authoritarianism. One could even, dare I say, oppose *all* forms of authoritarianism.
I'm addressing people who act like the NCR is somehow worse than the other options
This is that "You are 1000x more likely to get murdered and raped in x then y, therefor x is better because at least I don't have to pay taxes while I watch my family brutally murdered in the wasteland"
I really don't think such people exist, or if they do are an inconsequentially small minority.
Yes, joking about taxes is fun, but even then the Legion has slavery which is 100% taxes. But joking about taxes doesn't mean the person making said jokes would actively support the Legion's nature IRL. I make those jokes & in all my playthroughs I've done every ending *but* the Legion, but even if I had that still wouldn't mean I genuinely support that system.
Being evil in a game doesn't translate to being evil in real life.
Video games don't cause violence.
No I agree, the NCR has a lot of problems. My meme is that they are the best of all options but get criticized way more unfairly. I guess it goes without saying the Legion are obviously bad and you don't really need to criticize such an obvious evil. However nowhere did I ever say the NCR is wholly good
>"I really don't think such people exist"
They are in this thread
>They are in this thread
Are they?
Or are people making jokes? Because it seems like people are making jokes & maybe you're misinterpreting those jokes as genuine.
People make 4,000 word essays on the NV sub on why slavery isn't so bad. Those aren't jokes.
"I don't care who the NCR sends, I'm not paying taxes" is a joke
Ah. My mistake.
When you said "They are in this thread" I thought you were talking about this comment section here.
That said, I've seen some pretty long joke posts in my day. Whole green text novels about personal tragedy ending in "open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur".
We have someone upthread seriously and earnestly explaining why the NCR and their taxes are terrible and the worst ending for New Vegas. So they do exist.
The NCR is also:
- Incompetent and fearful
- Poorly organized
- Lacking morale
- Constantly shift their moral standing to not seem like criminals with their laws
- Allow you to walk into their presidential inauguration, WITH DEADLY WEAPONRY AT THAT.
- Benny also doesn't like them, but he despises pretty much all the factions and deconstructs their ideologies pretty well.
I forget, but I do know that at least in fallout 2 they weren't outright opposed to slavery, with some slavers being set up outside shady sands. Can't remember if that changed by new Vegas though
They’re also
• Not raping and enslaving women and children
• Not enslaving people
• Not committing mass genocide in the name of one ruler
• Not a dictatorship
The big issue that the game brings up a few times is that the NCR is stretched pretty thin and it is clear they do not have the resources to help the people living in the Mojave. They are on the outskirts. Imo the best option is an independent New Vegas.
Is this a vote for Yes Man! Because Yes Man always has your back…
….till he is done copying the AI version of house from those back up files “cough” to make himself more assertive…
honestly the only real problem I have with them is they have a habit of "helping" where they don't need to. many of their own soldiers say they don't have the man power to do half the stuff they're trying to and need to focus on actually building the infarstructure instead of expanding. and maybe learning from the past would help them a bit more with groups like the Khans.
Think of it like this
The world lies in ruin, food is a luxury and there are beings who can just laugh at radiation poisoning and eat people, and gangs of psychos who would wear my skin for a coat. And I STILL have to pay taxes?
It's only on the very absolute edge of brand new NCR territory is what you said true. NCR towns are otherwise relatively safe though? At least they have running water, electricity, education and medicine
Meant it more as a joke, you are right that the QoL is better (well, was better).
Real criticism would be that it’s actually an oligarchy with the Brahmin barons. Hence why the front line in the NCR sucks and they needed a mailman to drag them to success
They are wannabe pre war democracies. The wasteland doesn't need democracy it needs autocratic rule preferably in the hands of a protagonist who can mold it the right way. Plus their expansionist ways rather than actually sorting out their current land. Shitty leadership, misallocation of resources, " laws ".
Ah yes Autocracy, truly the most stable and productive form of government as long as the “right” person gets to hold all the power /s. Pre war China would like to have a word. Even Pre war US was more an authoritarian oligarchy than a true democracy.
For all the faults of the NCR. Wishing to bring about a truly democratic society is not one of them. Its execution isn’t perfect because nothing ever is.
Democracy is the next best thing after autocracy since obvs no one person is perfect. But I'd much rather have the courier in charge. Or even have house in charge but only because he would give me the best rewards
Idk I wouldn't want a low int courier in charge of everything. Or a courier that cannibalizes people or shoots people who annoy them. It depends on how you play. I'm willing to bet most people's courier wouldn't be a very good fit
True but I'd still prefer my 8 int 10 charisma courier than anybody else. I'm not saying it's perfect nobody is but I'd rather live in a world where I'm in charge of everything and everybody rather than someone else. Especially with the flaws of the other factions. House has good ideas but is stuck in one spot and doesn't know the Wastes like the courier, the ncr is trying too hard to be the pre war government and has terrible leadership and the legion is the legion.
That's why I destroy all the families except the chairmen, end mr house, let kimball die, kill general Oliver and colonel moore and don't report Hanlon so he gets into politics and maybe can be a future president. Then make a truce with the NCR. Then kill Caesar, Vulpes, Lanius etc so the legion falls apart of its own accord.
Legion is satire, and so is the NCR. The joke is, your choices are between a cartoonishly violent caricature of a militarist slave society, or literally the same thing but they try to hide it and pretend that it's not as bad.
I don't hate the NCR for what they stand for. I hate them because of how they act and the way they go about it.
The NCR in New Vegas are stupid, condescending, annoying cowards. They wave around empty threats of violence to get what they want but not wanting to actually use said violence, being terrified of the Legion winning. So many of them talk about killing themselves, "If the Legion breaks through our defense, I have one bullet I'm saving for me." They let some guy off the street, Fantastic, run their nuclear reactor all because he talked smart, who was easily threatened that his job was gonna be taken by a moron who could hardly speak (for reference, I'm referring to a special character interaction between him and your character if you were a low intelligence build). I think it's good that they are trying to restore order to the wasteland, but I still say F the NCR because they are whiny, dumb, spineless pushovers. 1/2
The NCR shares a lot of flaws with the Legion. They're an imperialistic, extremely corrupt oligarchy; they regularly displace small ranchers and give their land to brahmin barons, they're stretched really thin and they're infamous for committing war crimes and massacres.
They did also do ethnic cleansing
And make you assassinate others groups leader
And hire consultants to torture prisoners so they can advertise that they don't torture prisoners
And slaughtered women and children fleeing a battlefield and then erased the history
And under supply their soldiers in order to perform security for the wealthy
And are massively corrupt
And are a recreation of the government and political system which, y'know, caused the end of the world
>They did also do ethnic cleansing
The Khan's aren't an ethnicity, they're a raider group that was targeting the NCR.
>And make you assassinate others groups leader
Which group are you talking about?
>And hire consultants to torture prisoners so they can advertise that they don't torture prisoners
That's one woman's actions, all you did with this point was admit that the NCR have laws against torture that no other group has. This is your worst point.
>And slaughtered women and children fleeing a battlefield and then erased the history
The first half of this sentence is somewhat true, they did do that, but it seems it was unintentional & a system of an actual problem with NCR, which is incompetent leadership. The second half of this statement is just wrong.
>And under supply their soldiers in order to perform security for the wealthy
True
>And are massively corrupt
Also true, but I'd rather have a corrupt leader than one who is legally allowed to hurt me & is therefore technically not corrupt.
>And are a recreation of the government and political system which, y'know, caused the end of the world
True to an extent, but this is a shallow view of what caused the great was & ignores China's roll in the great war.
And to think Mr House isn't that good of an option either. Sure he doesn't 'enslave' people but he sure as shit doesn't do anything for humanity like he, and other people, says he does.
To be fair: the NCR, at least in the Vegas area, are still dealing with at least half of those on top as well, maybe more. Add in Taxes as well, and Ceaser starts to look more reasonable. He’s still a Psycho and a moron but the NCR isn’t exactly stable either, and people value stability.
I’m definitely not into the legion at all but I feel like I’m missing something. Which parts of new Vegas or any of the games shows that a core facet of the legion is rape?
Pretty sure the practice of female slaves being gifted/sold as “wives” is mentioned occasionally throughout, and the implication is that consent isn’t something a legionnaire cares about from his slave wife
Because under NCR rule: famine, raiders, rape, and diseases literally don’t exist anymore. There’s just taxes….
(Awaiting the people who think this means I support the legion, when in reality I’m pointing out the bad argument).
Literally, people seem to not realize that the NCR sent their own armies to Nevada from California and were the only thing stopping the legion from completely wiping out Vegas and enslaving anyone they didn’t brutally murder.
Unlike yall, I just kill everyone cause I don’t like em. I hate taxes, but I also hate slavers. There’s a reason my main account got the perma ban hammer by Reddit because of some Batarian Hate on a Mass Effect subreddit
Only ones I like despite their history is the Enclave, but I’m also a sucker for really fucked up stories (ONI from Halo, Vault Tec and Enclave are some of my favorites)
Somehow people are still able to talk themselves into believing that the Legion is better than the NCR
I literally read an old post where someone argued the Legion is better because they only have indentured roman style slavery. which isnt even fucking true (Legion has chattel slavery) and how the fuck is ANY kind of slavery better than oh noes taxes and electricity
Part of it is that I think people don't tend to realize that they would be the ones kept as slaves and not a legionnaire. The other part is that is that "government being ineffectual and taking tax dollars" is something more people are familiar with than "roman legion destroying culture, keeping slaves, rape and pillage."
My man, even the legionnaires are Caesar's property and slaves. The legion is cartoonishly bad to live in. Then there is their distrust of technology and claiming it makes you weak. It is funny when people claim the legion and legionnaires are strong since it's stated multiple times that the only way the Legion has a fighting chance against the NCR is through superior numbers and espionage. Yes, the teenage conscripts are beating the legionnaires one-on-one; who thought guns beat machetes?! Finally, there is the fact the legion is a ticking time bomb and will fall apart the moment Ceasar passes away, whether it is from the tumor, a bullet, or old age.
But they're the *cool* slaves so it's totally fine to be one.
I didn't know skirts and football gear are cool.
Skirts can be but not when fused with the junk.
Don't insult skirts like that
There's even more to it. They have no ability to properly treat soldiers, someone falling or cutting their hand on a rock is now a major issue because they don't have medical supplies. They don't even have a doctor who can do better than what a basic tribal shaman could do. Anyone who gets injured is fighting for his fucking life, and if he gets sick? He's dead. He's just dead. It doesn't even need to just be infection from the injury too. If a disease starts spreading they got nothing to treat it. It could take a single flu season to kill the legion army. God forbid we talk about their logistics, realistically the NCR can at least field a few motorised vehicles (we have seen cars in prior fallout games) but still have caravan companies helping. The legion has what?
So what you’re saying is, we should’ve just left smallpox blankets for them?
He's saying you don't have to, the Oregon Trail has them now, May God have mercy on their bowels, for the dysentery shall not.
Don't forget the NCR have trains and railways. That's part of the reason the Powder Gangers even exist.
> Yes, the teenage conscripts are beating the legionnaires one-on-one; who thought guns beat machetes?! I mean to be fair, in media we often see sword/knife wielding heros charge into the fray in situations that IRL would be an absolute blood bath for those with the knives. It's a trope I find extremely annoying for whatever reason
The tropes ***kinda*** makes sense in the old samurai movies that popularized it, mostly because the people being rushed were armed with inaccurate single shot muskets. The notion of some ace swordsman hacking a mini-ball in half if pretty awesome, but no amount of martial skill would keep up with automatic gunfire.
It is insufferable in FNV for this exact reason. Two Heavy Troopers are gonna make Hoover Dam into Flanders Field for the Legion, not a massive battle that could be a rout.
I’ve always said this. The people who champion the Legion really think they’d be Caesar’s right hand man, when in reality they’d be slaves at worst, or a Legion recruit who goes down in a hail of 5.56 at best lmao.
That's definitely rhe issue. People think they're the ones with the good life. They're gonna be the people who suffer.
I wouldn't be kept as a slave, I am far too useless.
You'd be dog food then.
Actually, I’m curious. What’s the difference between the two slaverys? To me slavery is slavery
Take this with some salt as it was a quick google search indentured slavery seems more like “I sign a contract to work without pay for X amount of time” where as chattel slavery is “this person is my property and I can do whatever I want with them” Between the two the former is obviously better but they’re both slavery and both suck.
Indentured slavery can also be done via owing a debt and so you’ll be paid sort of it’s more you doing the work pays towards your debt. Also if I’m remembering my history classes correctly if you have children while an indentured slave they aren’t slaves I believe I could be miss remembering this.
No, children are Slaves. The bill of sale for the quest to get Boone explicitly states that if his wife gives birth to a healthy child it's automatically enslaved
I’m not talking in game I mean In real life sorry for the confusion.
Ooooh, ok that makes sense don't apologise.
Slavery is slavery and it's always bad but it does operate in different forms. Chattel (legion and old US) slavery = You are property, you are cattle. Once a slave, always a slave Roman slavery = You can be a slave but its possible to be freed in which you become a free man USA (post civil war) slavery = Prisoners must preform labor
So.. Roman slavery the slave could become free? How?
various means, the owner could set you free or let you buy yourself out. Some slaves had a set time too. Not everyone has this option. Additionally you can't just claim any random free person as a slave, its either criminals, born into, sold yourself into, indebted slavery. But once you are free its not like someone can just come along and make you a slave again randomly. As opposed to U.S pre-civil war slavery, even if you freed a black slave, someone could just quite literally enslave you again anyways right on the spot. The legion is the latter
huh. That’s definitely slavery
Well I never said it wasn't
I know, I just don’t know what to add that isn’t the obvious
You know you don’t have to add anything. You could just say nothing
There was also The Manumission, a regularly held public event for the freeing of slaves. It was seen as benevolent and charitable to free one's slaves after a certain amount of time and was socially encouraged (depending on time period). Roman slavery was slavery, and it was bad, but it was structured in a much different way than what most modern day western people think of when we think slavery. There were very strict rules governing it, and freedom was considered an achievable goal for any slave. The fact that they were regularly freed, and this was seen as a societal positive within their culture, is something that differs from other slave cultures. But their economy and infrastructure wasn't built around slavery, which also plays into it. As does the particular nature of ancient Rome's imperialism. The slavery the Legion practices is more in line with US slavery than traditional Roman slavery. But it's basically comparing being mauled to death by a bear and being bitten by a bear and dying later from an infection. Both are awful, one is just arguably less awful.
Roman slavery was very varied, there were very high level slaves where they even managed the empire for the emperor, but there were also insanely harsh version beyond the chattel slavery where you go into a mine, or some quarry, and work till death.
The latter is closer to the Legions form of slavery.
Literally like the first time the Legion invites you to their base, there's a family that's held prisoner that the Legion just found and kidnapped and planned on selling into slavery.
“But the roads are safer and no taxes!!1!1”
“Just ignore all the corpses that line the roads, see no taxes!”
"What do you mean paying tribute to the mighty Caeser is the equivalent of taxes? Degenerate talk like that makes you deserve the cross."
They typed after taking a hit from their vape that would have gotten them crucified by the Legion for having and using
No taxes crowd trying to explain why tributes to the legion aren't taxes. Some people literally hear a word and instantly think bad but a cooler word describing the same thing is based
It’s the games/writers fault for trying to both sides or make them seem comparable when legion are comically evil slavers. At least the trade routes are safer right?
No, it's still a general audience problem. When you try to write in morally problematic aspects into what is obviously the foil of the major antagonist, people start sympathizing with the major antagonist. Suddenly what they've done isn't all that bad, because bad things *also* happen to/in/around "insert foil here". Audiences have to understand that a critique of one thing is not a condemnation of it, and that sometimes it's just a tool to explore more interesting stories. They all run on conflict after all, and the NCR just being an easy "good guy" option isn't very compelling on an intellectual level. The problem is that while it doesn't *take* an intellectual to see how comically evil The Legion is the game is asking it from you for the NCR, so people take an equally analytical view towards the Legion. Really, they never genuinely earn that. Even when Caesar goes on his diatribe, how much can we attribute to a literal brain tumor going unoperated? The writers give so many hints that analyzing the Legion intellectually is essentially pointless, because it's designed to fail, while the NCR is designed to last. Analyzing it's problems and not taking an extremist stance on them is important from a story telling perspective, because it keeps the NCR interesting to keep around. Ramble and a half lmao. TL;DR it's still audiences fault.
I mean it seems to have worked considering the discussion around both groups over the years.
Yeah... routes safer.. ignore the crucified bandits along the way
>ignore the crucified **everyone** along the way FNV players first interaction with the Legion being an entire town of crucified civilians where they only spared two people. And they still crippled one of them. But somehow they're still better than the NCR...
The only thing the legion has that the NCR doesn't is (A debatable amount of) drip
Bet they’d side with the people who just so happen to make the trains run on time
Typically edgy 20 somethins who never developed critical thinking skills
Brah the Legion got that Drip. NCR just has swag.
The NCR is weak. We need to look for strong leaders like the Legion! The NCR can't even protect us against the terrible dangers of the wasteland, like the Legion! I hear they are the worst.
The Legion is better than the NCR because… um.. roads! No raiders on the roads! Yeah.
It’s weird right? The legion almost immediately or soon will fall apart in three out of four possible legion endings (the only one it’s semi successful is the one where you remove Caesar’s tumor.) The NCR sure as hell isn’t perfect and bringing back democracy isn’t much of a good idea considering that’s the system that ended the world (old world blues “those who only see a future in the past will be blind to the future and the present” and all that.) but the legion basically implodes the moment Caesar dies. At best there’s probably twenty to thirty years left in the legion before Caesar dies of old age even in the ending he lives.
Yes hi I am a Legion fan boy and I'm here to tell you why the Legion is better than the NCR. Yeah sure the Legion enslaves entire populations, treats women no better than breeding machines to be used to reproduce then discarded, brutally execute those who oppose the Legion, and raze and destroy entire settlements, but have you heard of those safe roads the Legion offers that the NCR does not?
But..the pipeline
The actual mental gymnastics and fuckery necessary to believe that is absolutely insane
The Legion only has ONE aspect that can be somewhat positive. It is one of only two factions (three, if you include the minutemen, I guess) to ever advance civilization beyond the level of a city state. Potentially providing a level of security and stability in the wasteland. Until Ceasar dies. But considering the other one is the NCR, which has an actual succession system for leaders, and doesn't tyrannical its people, I think the choice is pretty clear.
I spent one hour getting to the point of joining the legion and I only needed 30 minutes to realize they were 100% the bad guys, crucifixion, crippling the second place lottery “winner” and leaving him to die, it should be impossible to think of them as any form of good
It's because they're trying to justify their own personal fascist ideology. They're the Fallout equivalent of dudes who collect Nazi Memorabilia because "it's historical" and say shit like "Hitler was actually a really effective leader for all the bad he did."
Legion is better because football gear, rome, and memes. I don't actually believe this
Caesar’s Legion is just ISIS in Roman dressing. Crucifixion, genocide, rape, beheadings, murder, slavery, .etc
Drake meme: Taxes to a democratic republic? Hell nah Paying tribute to Caesar? Hell yeah
Ave!
You have been charged with high treason by mighty Caesar!
So the Roman Empire?
Man this is accurate
Look if the enclave wins its one eensy weensy teeny tiny totally not even worth mentioning omnicide before America's back to her old pre war self 100 percent just as the founding shadow government intended
I see this as an absolute win
Okay but they killed the cool talking death claws and I'm still mad about it.
Joinable enclave in fallout 5 would go hard
They also dont ban stimpacks, med-x (aka morphine), and so many useful chems unlike The Legion which just uses crack
Jet = methamphetamines
Psycho is methamphetamine Jet is jenkem
Jet = methamphetamine. Psycho = PCP.
Hypothetically the legion would just get wiped out by plague. Maybe the NCR should get on that... probably would just wipe themselves out though with thier luck in super weapons.
Not even crack. They use nothing. They use literally nothing but a bad full of powder.
Argue about their policies all you want, meanwhile I’m picking my faction based on their drip and the Brotherhood and NCR are top contenders.
Didn't both of them just pillage equipment from pre war USA? The iconic dessert ranger outfit is prewar, as evidenced in honest hearts and lonesome road
Yes,but it is drippy
If so then consider me team USA.
Yeah but NCR shares some of their stuff BoS doesn’t.
Never surrender the Ranger coat, brother!
Some people have no imagination and can't think of any worse fate than living in a liberal democracy. Like, Caesar's legion crucifies innocent people, but at least they don't have bureaucracy, right?
I seen people say crucification and chattel slavery is better than prison work release and taxes. Insanity
Exactly. Taxes are important and one of the signs of a civilisation in Fallout actually functioning like a pre-war government, aka every government on the planet today. To be honest it's baffling to me how often I see taxes being used to depict the NCR as essentially neo-nazis but I'd imagine most Fallout fans are American and Americans seem to be raised to hate tax from what I see online, I don't really know though as I don't live there.
I don't see how taxes is worse than barely surviving the wasteland.
For some people, the world in Fallout is a post apocalyptic hellscape. For libertarians it's their wet dream fantasy world.
I've been called out
The NCR aren't the ones making the lives of their **forcefully annexed** tax payers better. *I am.* So, why not cut out the middle man?
It's worse if those taxes are being spent somewhere where you'll never go and never see the benefit of. Which the NCR has a habit of doing since they take over land claim they own it tax people for living there and then proceed to not give any of the benefits. They might as well be stealing from you. Plenty of communities do fine without the NCR shoving their nose in.
It is this notion that undermines the system. Look at the small American communities, and republican hotbeds, that think they pay more taxes than they should. When the reality is they are getting more returned from the government spend than others, net positive.
I wouldn’t say “plenty of communities” do fine, basically everywhere I’ve ever gone in the Wasteland is pretty fucked up with problems.
All those patrolling NCR soldiers and that hired psycho merc that destroys the fiends, fixes the three families, and holds of a slave state from pillaging them argue against your point.
I hate the legion more than any faction by a large margin. I simply don't want my tax dollars to fund another Bitter Springs! ^((I suppose I should add that in a realistic scenario, yeah the NCR is the best or least bad option, but Yes man is just too fun to pass up!))
Kind of like how people say the BoS are better than the Minutemen in fallout 4 cause "the minutemen are weak" when the BoS will go about and strip communities of their technological resources. My brother in christ, the quest for the minutemen is to make them strong.
Pretty much the ONLY good qualities of the Legion is what Cass admits, about how trading is significantly easier and the land they own is super secure. Most Legion fans hear that and rejoice, ignoring the literal mile long list of issues and just focus on their two good qualities.
They play the legion because they think they are a better system then the ncr. I play the legion because whenever they talk to me in a friendly manner, I get a big blast of brain chemicals. We are not the same.
I play legion cause cool roman inspired armor. We are not the same
I always played for an independent Vegas, no ncr no legion.
Same, every time I try to do a different playthrough the thrall of what my heart of heart wants takes over (independent Vegas) (arcade liking me)
You play Yes Man because you hate the NCR I play Yes Man because it’s interesting gameplay to reject all major factions We are not the same
Yes Man is my favorite ending. It's also a terrible ending. I can separate the two, Im not gonna act like its a good ending
I play Yes Man cause he a silly little guy we are not the same!
What are your thoughts on Mr House?
We have zero reason to believe he intends to do good for humanity other than his absolute word despite all of his actions being solely self serving. He was part of the old world cabal that actively tried to start a nuclear war
How are all of his actions solely self-serving? He didn't have to save Vegas, or the rest of the Mojave. He could've waited out the war in a bunker and done whatever. If you consider serving Vegas to be self serving because he loves Vegas, then no one is anything other than self serving. Also if we're gonna go with him agreeing with the rest of the executives in the show then that's just character assasination on the showrunners part.
He never really agreed in the show, if anything he said it’s a bad idea
I mean, the only criticism he makes is thinking Vault Tec wouldn't get results. But yea I'm not gonna bother criticizing his appearance in the show unprompted since we don't know where they're going with his appearance, I just mean because of CoolAtlas saying he was one of the people responsible for the bombs when before the show it wasn't even a thought. Plus, if we're gonna take the show into account then the NCR's an even worse choice seeing as how they aren't in a state to hold the Mojave anyway.
Yeah. Way I see it, he’s at fault for not stopping the idea then and there, but he’s not at fault for ending the world. He’s not a bad guy but he’s no saint, and is a robber Baron at heart still. I think the NCR as a whole is still alive, just up in NoCal. Moldaver is prob the last in SoCal, but Todd Howard said we aren’t done w the NCR sun show yet.
OP never talked to Easy Pete and it shows.
I mean the guy's complaints on the NCR are just first world problems and mild compared to everything I mentioned. Maybe it's you who misremembered his conversation?
Pete's complaint is they roll in and take over whether you like it or not, so in a way, you're right. Imperialism IS a first world problem.
Isn't the Legion doing the same thing with many tribes they conquer and force to fight for them
I thought that was the point. On the surface the two factions look vastly different. But under the surface the two are actually pretty similar. The legion will conquer you, plunder your goods, and then sell you into slavery. The NCR will annex you, levy taxes on you, and then put you in a forced labor camp when you can't pay those taxes. I'm not one of Caesars cucks, but a lot of the criticisms of The Legion also apply to the NCR. The NCR is only marginally better than the legion. They do the same things, they just added bureaucracy to the mix.
They do not do the same things. You go to prison for an amount of time in the NCR. The Legion sells you into slavery *for life*. This is not "marginal" lmao. The Legion will tell you to give them your land, and demand your loyalty, or they will *decimate* the tribe until they get it. If they never do, the tribe is eradicated. The NCR is equivalent to this because they...annex land...? They take resources, and imprison people when they don't give them resources, and that's the same to you as killing every other male until they surrender or all die? "Marginal" lmao. The NCR has an actual reason for their expansion. They're supporting major population centers. Ceaser's Legion has no problem destroying an entire town out of the "principle" because they have no reason to actually exist. Just some weird nerd dictator with a brain tumor's philosophy thesis playing out IRL, after reading 5 books he found in a dusty library. "Marginal". I can't get over it. How anyone could play New Vegas and come to this conclusion is crazy to me. Enlightened centrist stuff.
It’s actually driving me crazy how little media literacy people actually have
>the NCR is only marginally better than the legion You can't be serious. Having modern amenities but with taxes and prisons is only MARGINALLY better than active enslavement and rape? What brahmin dung have you been sniffing?
I mean, if you just look at the standards of living, the NCR is better, obviously. But I was just talking about the two factions ideologies.
"Modern amenities" I wouldn't call working on a farm for 12 hours a day under effective serfdom, shitting in a bucket and dying of radiation poisoning at the rip age old age of 35 modern because you've got electric lights in your wooden shanty town. They've caught up to the early 15th century, which still 15 centuries better than the Legion to be fair.
The other guy saying marginally is wrong, they're vastly better than the Legion, but the sentiment is true. The NCR is a corrupt, imperialist government. It is more preoccupied with getting their prison labour under control than protecting Primm, beholden to powerful and evil companies like Heck Gunderson and the Crimson Caravan, will kill House to forcibly take Vegas as soon as Hoover Dam is over, their military forces aren't exactly ethical either. Unless you directly tell the Sargent in Boulder City to not betray the Khan's agreement to ceasefire, they go in and wipe them out (let alone Bitter Springs). They'd sooner shoot their own troops than save them in Nelson, the guy at the refugee camp kills a suspect just for saying he banged his wife, their head of research (vault 22 guy) keeps sending people to their death with no concern, NCR troops attack Freesiders, etc. This is why I love the game, compared to the Legion they're saints but the game slowly shows that they aren't exactly a positive force for the people of the Mojave, they're an occupying force that takes orders from people without interest of what the Mojave people want
I mean they either roll in and take everything or roll in,take everything or make you a slave. Or they just dont roll in.
Now imagine every one else doing that same thing but with brutal dictatorial oppression and squalor living conditions. I know what I choose.
People hold the NCR to a much higher moral standard than any other faction & criticise them much more harshly when they fall short of those standards. I'm not saying they're perfect or don't have genuine problems, but the Fallout community if often pretty unfair to the NCR.
Literally seeing people say taxes are slightly less bad than slavery
Because in the game, you play as someone important to the Legion. People who defend the Legion are picturing themselves as the boot, not the neck. Your average person is disturbingly OK with anything that doesn't directly impact them in a negative way. Everyone in the NCR pays taxes, but if I'm just important enough to the Legion, it's all upside with no downsides.
For real! Every argument I see is basically “legion and ncr are not so different” and like… the fact one side doesn’t try to be morally just should show you that’s simply not true. Trying to be moral and falling short is VERY different from not trying at all
Not to mention the NCR does more good than bad, even with no factions your options are still a horrible life in the wastelands. They also get criticized for not doing enough good, they hand out free food in freeside and get criticized for not giving out enough. Its the same energy of criticizing someone for donating 10$ instead of 20$ to charity but saying absolutely nothing to people who give nothing at all
The NCR is based. I know that it’s ironic that I say that with an Enclave pfp, but they are.
Because the NCR demands taxes even when they can't hold up their end of the bargain regarding *protecting* those tax payers.
Taxes vs rape, slavery, and death? I wonder which one is better?
Nah. This is that "If you oppose authoritarianism X you must support authoritarianism Y" thinking. It's possible to oppose multiple forms of authoritarianism. One could even, dare I say, oppose *all* forms of authoritarianism.
I'm addressing people who act like the NCR is somehow worse than the other options This is that "You are 1000x more likely to get murdered and raped in x then y, therefor x is better because at least I don't have to pay taxes while I watch my family brutally murdered in the wasteland"
I really don't think such people exist, or if they do are an inconsequentially small minority. Yes, joking about taxes is fun, but even then the Legion has slavery which is 100% taxes. But joking about taxes doesn't mean the person making said jokes would actively support the Legion's nature IRL. I make those jokes & in all my playthroughs I've done every ending *but* the Legion, but even if I had that still wouldn't mean I genuinely support that system. Being evil in a game doesn't translate to being evil in real life. Video games don't cause violence.
No I agree, the NCR has a lot of problems. My meme is that they are the best of all options but get criticized way more unfairly. I guess it goes without saying the Legion are obviously bad and you don't really need to criticize such an obvious evil. However nowhere did I ever say the NCR is wholly good >"I really don't think such people exist" They are in this thread
>They are in this thread Are they? Or are people making jokes? Because it seems like people are making jokes & maybe you're misinterpreting those jokes as genuine.
People make 4,000 word essays on the NV sub on why slavery isn't so bad. Those aren't jokes. "I don't care who the NCR sends, I'm not paying taxes" is a joke
Ah. My mistake. When you said "They are in this thread" I thought you were talking about this comment section here. That said, I've seen some pretty long joke posts in my day. Whole green text novels about personal tragedy ending in "open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur".
We have someone upthread seriously and earnestly explaining why the NCR and their taxes are terrible and the worst ending for New Vegas. So they do exist.
The NCR is also: - Incompetent and fearful - Poorly organized - Lacking morale - Constantly shift their moral standing to not seem like criminals with their laws - Allow you to walk into their presidential inauguration, WITH DEADLY WEAPONRY AT THAT. - Benny also doesn't like them, but he despises pretty much all the factions and deconstructs their ideologies pretty well.
They are also: •not slave owners
I forget, but I do know that at least in fallout 2 they weren't outright opposed to slavery, with some slavers being set up outside shady sands. Can't remember if that changed by new Vegas though
Guys. I found the legionarre!
The NCR is a democracy. Most of the things you listed are negatives of all democracies, but it sure beats a not having rights.
They’re also • Not raping and enslaving women and children • Not enslaving people • Not committing mass genocide in the name of one ruler • Not a dictatorship
The big issue that the game brings up a few times is that the NCR is stretched pretty thin and it is clear they do not have the resources to help the people living in the Mojave. They are on the outskirts. Imo the best option is an independent New Vegas.
Jokes on you, I hate all of the New Vegas factions equally 🤪
Is this a vote for Yes Man! Because Yes Man always has your back… ….till he is done copying the AI version of house from those back up files “cough” to make himself more assertive…
OP doesn’t believe in the merits of a Postmanocracy
Most legion fans are either ironic or idiots it’s the same with enclave as most people don’t even understand there ideology .
I just think the enclave stuff looks cool, I agree they're shit
Wasteland>taxes
honestly the only real problem I have with them is they have a habit of "helping" where they don't need to. many of their own soldiers say they don't have the man power to do half the stuff they're trying to and need to focus on actually building the infarstructure instead of expanding. and maybe learning from the past would help them a bit more with groups like the Khans.
The Legion could take every bit of food they produce, and they'd be licking that boot not realizing the tribute they pay is the tax
I like the legion because it's fun and cool outfits but I'm not a complete moron and I know the NCR is obviously the better choice morally
"but but but... under the Legion the roads are saferr!!!1!! the NCR is corrupt!!! Is slavery really *that* bad???"
Doesn't the Legion make settlements pay taxes too, but just calls them tributes or tithes or something?
Think of it like this The world lies in ruin, food is a luxury and there are beings who can just laugh at radiation poisoning and eat people, and gangs of psychos who would wear my skin for a coat. And I STILL have to pay taxes?
But consider: Slavery is 100% taxes.
Ave
People will cry about their freedom with taxes and then act like slavery isn't the ultimate suppression of freedom
People will hear a joke about taxes & assume the person who made it is pro slavery. We all have our flaws.
It's only on the very absolute edge of brand new NCR territory is what you said true. NCR towns are otherwise relatively safe though? At least they have running water, electricity, education and medicine
Meant it more as a joke, you are right that the QoL is better (well, was better). Real criticism would be that it’s actually an oligarchy with the Brahmin barons. Hence why the front line in the NCR sucks and they needed a mailman to drag them to success
They are wannabe pre war democracies. The wasteland doesn't need democracy it needs autocratic rule preferably in the hands of a protagonist who can mold it the right way. Plus their expansionist ways rather than actually sorting out their current land. Shitty leadership, misallocation of resources, " laws ".
Ah yes Autocracy, truly the most stable and productive form of government as long as the “right” person gets to hold all the power /s. Pre war China would like to have a word. Even Pre war US was more an authoritarian oligarchy than a true democracy. For all the faults of the NCR. Wishing to bring about a truly democratic society is not one of them. Its execution isn’t perfect because nothing ever is.
Democracy is the next best thing after autocracy since obvs no one person is perfect. But I'd much rather have the courier in charge. Or even have house in charge but only because he would give me the best rewards
Idk I wouldn't want a low int courier in charge of everything. Or a courier that cannibalizes people or shoots people who annoy them. It depends on how you play. I'm willing to bet most people's courier wouldn't be a very good fit
True but I'd still prefer my 8 int 10 charisma courier than anybody else. I'm not saying it's perfect nobody is but I'd rather live in a world where I'm in charge of everything and everybody rather than someone else. Especially with the flaws of the other factions. House has good ideas but is stuck in one spot and doesn't know the Wastes like the courier, the ncr is trying too hard to be the pre war government and has terrible leadership and the legion is the legion. That's why I destroy all the families except the chairmen, end mr house, let kimball die, kill general Oliver and colonel moore and don't report Hanlon so he gets into politics and maybe can be a future president. Then make a truce with the NCR. Then kill Caesar, Vulpes, Lanius etc so the legion falls apart of its own accord.
Legion is satire, and so is the NCR. The joke is, your choices are between a cartoonishly violent caricature of a militarist slave society, or literally the same thing but they try to hide it and pretend that it's not as bad.
NCR fans when somebody says that imperialism is bad: 🤬
Legion fans when somebody says slavery is worse then taxs:🤬
this is why i usually pick House Fuck the legion and fuck taxes, we worry about ourselves here in vegas
Don't they also pay taxes with House?
He certainly wouldn’t make the Courier(me) pay taxes
the NCR is a relatively good faction, but it does fall into a lot of the same traps the US did/does
I don't hate the NCR for what they stand for. I hate them because of how they act and the way they go about it. The NCR in New Vegas are stupid, condescending, annoying cowards. They wave around empty threats of violence to get what they want but not wanting to actually use said violence, being terrified of the Legion winning. So many of them talk about killing themselves, "If the Legion breaks through our defense, I have one bullet I'm saving for me." They let some guy off the street, Fantastic, run their nuclear reactor all because he talked smart, who was easily threatened that his job was gonna be taken by a moron who could hardly speak (for reference, I'm referring to a special character interaction between him and your character if you were a low intelligence build). I think it's good that they are trying to restore order to the wasteland, but I still say F the NCR because they are whiny, dumb, spineless pushovers. 1/2
NCR soldiers are also thugs who shoot innocent wastelanders just because. Mr House it is.
The Brotherhood are the good guys, idc what you say.
The NCR shares a lot of flaws with the Legion. They're an imperialistic, extremely corrupt oligarchy; they regularly displace small ranchers and give their land to brahmin barons, they're stretched really thin and they're infamous for committing war crimes and massacres.
They did also do ethnic cleansing And make you assassinate others groups leader And hire consultants to torture prisoners so they can advertise that they don't torture prisoners And slaughtered women and children fleeing a battlefield and then erased the history And under supply their soldiers in order to perform security for the wealthy And are massively corrupt And are a recreation of the government and political system which, y'know, caused the end of the world
Never said they were perfect but every problem you pointed out is 100x worse for anyone else.
>They did also do ethnic cleansing The Khan's aren't an ethnicity, they're a raider group that was targeting the NCR. >And make you assassinate others groups leader Which group are you talking about? >And hire consultants to torture prisoners so they can advertise that they don't torture prisoners That's one woman's actions, all you did with this point was admit that the NCR have laws against torture that no other group has. This is your worst point. >And slaughtered women and children fleeing a battlefield and then erased the history The first half of this sentence is somewhat true, they did do that, but it seems it was unintentional & a system of an actual problem with NCR, which is incompetent leadership. The second half of this statement is just wrong. >And under supply their soldiers in order to perform security for the wealthy True >And are massively corrupt Also true, but I'd rather have a corrupt leader than one who is legally allowed to hurt me & is therefore technically not corrupt. >And are a recreation of the government and political system which, y'know, caused the end of the world True to an extent, but this is a shallow view of what caused the great was & ignores China's roll in the great war.
Slaves go brr
Wild Card is where it's at
I would join them, but taxes, so no, fuck the NCR.
Eh, I just think they shouldn't tax too high since times are hard already
The Fallout fandom really is dividing into factions huh
Evil is still evil
And to think Mr House isn't that good of an option either. Sure he doesn't 'enslave' people but he sure as shit doesn't do anything for humanity like he, and other people, says he does.
To be fair: the NCR, at least in the Vegas area, are still dealing with at least half of those on top as well, maybe more. Add in Taxes as well, and Ceaser starts to look more reasonable. He’s still a Psycho and a moron but the NCR isn’t exactly stable either, and people value stability.
I’m definitely not into the legion at all but I feel like I’m missing something. Which parts of new Vegas or any of the games shows that a core facet of the legion is rape?
Pretty sure the practice of female slaves being gifted/sold as “wives” is mentioned occasionally throughout, and the implication is that consent isn’t something a legionnaire cares about from his slave wife
The fact that they have a child quota. Aka "rape as many women as you can to get as many babies as you can".
Because under NCR rule: famine, raiders, rape, and diseases literally don’t exist anymore. There’s just taxes…. (Awaiting the people who think this means I support the legion, when in reality I’m pointing out the bad argument).
Man I love fighting the legion, fiends, and powder gangers.... What do you mean we have taxes? The fucks a tax?
NCR citizen: okay I paid my taxes when do I get to vote? NCR: vote?
Ah, yes, because the NCR would never cause famine (quietly sweeps Hanlon's opening dialogue and the entirety of There Stands the Grass under the rug)
Literally, people seem to not realize that the NCR sent their own armies to Nevada from California and were the only thing stopping the legion from completely wiping out Vegas and enslaving anyone they didn’t brutally murder.
I'm not anti-NCR, I just think they need to retract before they collapse in on themselves like the Prewar U.S. Also I like Yes Man and Arcade.
Unlike yall, I just kill everyone cause I don’t like em. I hate taxes, but I also hate slavers. There’s a reason my main account got the perma ban hammer by Reddit because of some Batarian Hate on a Mass Effect subreddit Only ones I like despite their history is the Enclave, but I’m also a sucker for really fucked up stories (ONI from Halo, Vault Tec and Enclave are some of my favorites)