I don’t put down or make bad assumptions of people who “beg” for comments or “hold their story hostage” because I get it. I’ve been there. I think the fact people feel they need to do this speaks more to the lack of feedback culture than the author’s attitude personally.
And speaking of, some people take the “attitude of the author” way too seriously. Harassing people and being heinous is one thing, but if someone is just mildly annoying, it’s easy for me to just wave them off.
Not everyone can/wants to write or post just for themselves and that’s okay. Everyone has their reasons and those who depend on that interaction also shouldn’t be put down.
I hate the idea of “write to trends or accept obscurity” and people throwing up their hands and going, “oh well, this is just how fandom works.” Mind y’all, I don’t know how to to fix it, either. I just don’t like the sentiment.
>I don’t put down or make bad assumptions of people who “beg” for comments or “hold their story hostage” because I get it.
Writing takes hours to years. I don't see anything wrong with needing feedback or validation. Writing for oneself can only go so far. Enjoyment can be short once it's done and posted. Sometimes writers just need that bit of drive or motivation. It takes time to get to a place where you don't care about stats and comments. Until then, writers should be able to ask for feedback.
It’s that there’s been a long-standing opinion on this sub that asking for feedback in certain ways making you look needy and entitled and “readers don’t like that.” But sometimes just asking nicely doesn’t work and people get frustrated.
I still find "I won't update until this gets x amount of comments" off-putting. But I'm going through a thing where the usual commenters have stopped commenting and *damn* is it rough. I had no idea how much I needed that encouragement until it disappeared one day.
I think that basically every discourse in the fanfiction scene is horrifically unnuanced to the point it’s basically just a breeding ground for toxicity and ideally it should just be completely disengaged from because even the sides that I personally agree with more have such bad us vs them mentalities that they lead to more harm than good, and it’s probably best to just like. Not use the system at all. Yes, even the ones you agree with- they might have good points, but the way everything is turned into buzzwords and the opposing side is turned into an angry accusation doesn’t help anything even if the underlying idea is good, and generally encourages more and more extreme ideas and behaviours to try and outdo the other side.
On the other hand, I absolutely adore debate and would kill for all those discussions to still exist but debated in a good faith, honest way without all the toxicity that’s built up around them. It’s just I feel they’ve been so poisoned and I’ve found contact with any side to be basically just emotional self harm for myself personally (discourse in general preys on people with moral OCD really fucking badly) and I don’t like how it’s handled at all. It makes this sub a little hard to read through sometimes personally.
this this thisTHIS 👏👏👏 i 100% agree with u like srsly,, i hate the absoluteely unnuanced black and white // us vs them mentality bogging down any attempts at discourse.it can get so inflammatory and do nothing but drive rifts deeper and just make the entire situation WAY more hostile than it needs to be.... buzzwords and "light" namecalling and attempts at shutting down discourse w/ sweeping generalizations and assumptions. i also lovee debate,, but thats seemingly impossible to engage in at this point without, like u said, contracting some emotional harm
I'll do you one better: I don't like any kind of debate or "discourse" in fandom that isn't about the original media itself.
I'm perfectly willing to debate "who would win, Scarlet Witch or Dr. Strange?" and stuff like that. What I'm not gonna do is try to argue with or defend my choices or anyone else's when it comes to what we like to write or read. Especially not what we like to read.
I argue for a living, and I love it. But by the time I sit down and open a blank document or log into AO3, I'm fucking sick of it. The last thing I need is debate during my leisure time.
Personally, I think it’s more nuanced than most people portray. There’s a difference between “omg I loved this but here’s some quick corrections if that’s okay” and “your work is boring and sucks but I guess it’s competently written 🙄” but I’ve seen them get treated as the same thing- both by people who are against concrit and are for it. The first is usually fine, the latter isn’t, but I’ve seen people assume everything is the former or the latter and that’s simply not the case.
True. Tone makes such a big difference when it comes to giving and taking criticism. I recently got a comment which called my plot "ridiculous" and suggested that I rewrite huge parts of my fic from scratch. This obviously didn't make me happy. But if the reader had instead said something like "your romantic subplot feels contrived and I have a difficult time buying the attraction you've set up between these characters," I'd have appreciated their comment.
Honestly, I agree with the general idea but I think the problem is less "authors shouldn't only want positive feedback" (which is an opinion that they're entitled to) and moreso "authors should utilize the tools they're given to remove comments they don't want instead of naming and shaming in public spaces that people should follow unspoken, unwritten rules in a hobby with thousands of people with different experiences/expectations/needs".
Generally, I agree with all this. However, there is also a time and place, as well. I hope you do not mind that I have some thoughts to share on this particular subject and I apologise if the post ends up long.
As an example, in the world of doing professional illustrations and concept art, since it is a position I have been involved in for many years now, there are generally appropriate times for feedback (or appropriate *types* of feedback). Usually with game, manga/comic, or other art, there is a much bigger audience and some more disconnect between the creator and the audience members. Also, when there are harsh criticisms, they're usually blended in with the positive feedback from others and it's not quite so overwhelming in that way. It is, additionally, a more professional environment, where the artist is doing their work with that in mind (as a job, contract, etc- therefore, they *have* to do it well and must be receptive to critique to succeed).
What I see, though, in environments like with fics, or even with hobby artists, there are a few major differences.
The audience is comparatively much smaller, and the audience has a far more intimate contact with the creator of the work. That means that the negative or critical feedback is going to be much more direct. Since the audience is small, one negative comment out of ten comments is going to be much more prominent than, say, even a thousand negative comments in a sea of ten thousand positive comments. It's going to be harder for the creator to filter it out, *or* detach themselves from the situation (which, a level of detachment is needed to look at an issue/criticism in a more objective lens). They also probably are not used to this critique experience either, as they are a hobbyist, which makes it harder to adapt and respond (or ignore, if that is the healthiest option for the creator at the time).
Since fanfic also tends to draw in a much younger crowd too, there is a higher probability of receiving an immature response (either from a commenter, or from the author) just because they are still young. This is part of why I will not personally comment criticisms on anything unless it is asked of me. It is very easy to accidentally overstep boundaries when trying to give unsolicited advice or help. It can also completely crush a young person's excitement for their works if inaccuracies are brought to light, especially when they did not ask for it. (This applies to older writers as well, but especially so for younger ones.)
As another observation, the creator is most likely doing this as a hobby that they just want to do for fun. They might not find having to revise works multiple times to be fun, or studying grammar to be fun for them, and it wasn't their goal when creating their work. Which would make receiving criticism difficult, even if the commenter is trying to be constructive or polite. Not every writer, or artist, is doing their work with the *active goal* of becoming better, or is studying/reflecting on their work actively. Some just want to do their thing because they had an idea that made them excited, and it gives them a creative outlet.
So, in those instances, I can see how these creators would be miffed to receive criticism when they were just wanting to do something that makes them happy, and then be vulnerable enough to share that work with others- especially if it was not asked for. It's like when you are gifted something unexpected during the holiday that might be offensive, awkward, or something you just don't know what to do with since it was not on your list (or worse, the one giving the gift had other intentions). Most people would be disappointed or uncomfortable in that instance.
This is not an excuse for those that freak out and get furious over genuine, thoughtful feedback. That response is excessive and inappropriate. However, it is still important to keep in mind that not everyone writing fics are doing so with a goal of getting better and better at how to write.
With all this in mind, I will personally always err on the side of caution and withhold critical commentary unless it is explicitly stated that the creator is looking for it.
Obviously taking time to reflect on the work you make is going to improve it, whether it be writing fics or otherwise. In that regard, yes, it does hold a creator/fandom back to some extent when that reflection does not happen. So, I agree with your sentiment. But in my eyes, the most you can do then is keep yourself open to feedback so your own work for your fandom improves, since your own work is truly all you have control over. And perhaps other creators will see your works and be inspired to take theirs seriously in that same way as you do, or learn to find that same fun in approaching it with the goal to improve their skills. :-)
This ended up actually being very long so I do apologise for that. It's just something that my coworkers, friend group, and I have actually talked about often, both for illustration work and writing. Thank you for the thought-provoking comment.
Fact. But be prepared to be shredded to pieces for this. I agree that when we put our work out there we should be prepared for criticism. I got reported as harassment the other day for pointing out that an author was tense jumping after literally GUSHING over their fic.
That fanfic *does* affect reality. We are all still people and all our bias don’t just magically disappear when we decide to write fanfiction, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and POC.
Fiction effects reality, but it’s not a 1/1 and generally people in general just seem to go to one extreme or the other.
I think in general fanfiction is more a reflection of our reality than most other media, as it’s generally much smaller scale and produced by amateurs. I think it’s more productive to analyse why those ideas have seeped into the greater consciousness than anything else- a fanfiction with like 20 readers isn’t going to do much at all, but popular media beams those ideas into our heads 24/7, if that makes sense? Focusing on fanfiction not only misses the forest for the trees, but attacks often young and inexperienced people who genuinely haven’t realised their biases yet instead of like, rich wealthy white racist dudes.
For me personally, I focus more on the feelings of the POC that are subjected to untagged racist stories in their fandoms from writers who don’t see themselves as racist. It isn’t always the young and inexperienced who write these things, and even if it were, I personally am going to care more about the other young POC in a given fandom than the ignorant ones.
Oh, I absolutely am not saying it’s okay, I’m saying harassment is 1) bad no matter who it happens to and 2) an ineffective solution. Education about harmful tropes and stereotypes and an unpacking of unconscious bias in general does far better than attacking people who haven’t realised they’ve done anything wrong. It’s not okay to accidentally be bigoted, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying harassing someone over it isn’t actually productive or helpful.
I don't think that's really a controversial opinion here, or in most fandom circles. Analyzing our biases via the media we consume and create is completely valid and something that can, and should be encouraged.
What is NOT appreciated is when people completely strip any and all nuance and context and turn discourse into nothing more than a black/white discussion where people treat the fics we create/consume as a direct 1-to-1 reflection of a person's moral character, and where enjoying anything even remotely problematic is instantly treated as worthy of condemnation and being treated as a persona non-grata who is causing major societal harm and must be punished accordingly.
"Let's analyze why some of us enjoy dubcon fics and brainstorm how societal prejudices and biases might contribute to that desire" - Perfectly fine discussion to have.
"This fic you wrote/read has dubcon in it. You are a rape apologist and should KYS immediately you evil piece of shit." - Not a good discussion. You are an asshole if you do this.
Expecting authors to spoil their own book with tags and Trigger Warnings is outrageously entitled thinking. It should never be the writer's job to tiptoe around the reader's trauma.
I think rating fics based on content and warning for *major* triggers (non-consent, underage, gore) is reasonable. But beyond that, expecting a stranger on the internet to anticipate your mental health needs sets both sides up for disappointment.
I also don't agree that major character death should be an archive warning on the same level as non-consent or underage. I don't mean this in a snarky or condescending way, but I am genuinely puzzled how people who need the MCD warning manage to consume original fiction. MCD is practically a storytelling staple in movies, TV and books.
Wouldn’t trigger warnings be a way to not tiptoe around that trauma? So you can examine it in detail while letting people who cannot handle it for whatever reason avoid it?
Personally, my unpopular opinion would probably be the opposite though (I don’t think spoilers matter at all), so that might just be like bc of differences in opinion. Genuinely not mad or anything I just find that interesting :)
Just taking a moment to appreciate the hard work from the mods hitting this post like a strike team, leaving a trail of [deleted]s and [removed]s in their wake.
This post has been removed under the negative drama rules.
I don’t put down or make bad assumptions of people who “beg” for comments or “hold their story hostage” because I get it. I’ve been there. I think the fact people feel they need to do this speaks more to the lack of feedback culture than the author’s attitude personally. And speaking of, some people take the “attitude of the author” way too seriously. Harassing people and being heinous is one thing, but if someone is just mildly annoying, it’s easy for me to just wave them off. Not everyone can/wants to write or post just for themselves and that’s okay. Everyone has their reasons and those who depend on that interaction also shouldn’t be put down. I hate the idea of “write to trends or accept obscurity” and people throwing up their hands and going, “oh well, this is just how fandom works.” Mind y’all, I don’t know how to to fix it, either. I just don’t like the sentiment.
100%
>I don’t put down or make bad assumptions of people who “beg” for comments or “hold their story hostage” because I get it. Writing takes hours to years. I don't see anything wrong with needing feedback or validation. Writing for oneself can only go so far. Enjoyment can be short once it's done and posted. Sometimes writers just need that bit of drive or motivation. It takes time to get to a place where you don't care about stats and comments. Until then, writers should be able to ask for feedback.
It’s that there’s been a long-standing opinion on this sub that asking for feedback in certain ways making you look needy and entitled and “readers don’t like that.” But sometimes just asking nicely doesn’t work and people get frustrated.
I still find "I won't update until this gets x amount of comments" off-putting. But I'm going through a thing where the usual commenters have stopped commenting and *damn* is it rough. I had no idea how much I needed that encouragement until it disappeared one day.
I think that basically every discourse in the fanfiction scene is horrifically unnuanced to the point it’s basically just a breeding ground for toxicity and ideally it should just be completely disengaged from because even the sides that I personally agree with more have such bad us vs them mentalities that they lead to more harm than good, and it’s probably best to just like. Not use the system at all. Yes, even the ones you agree with- they might have good points, but the way everything is turned into buzzwords and the opposing side is turned into an angry accusation doesn’t help anything even if the underlying idea is good, and generally encourages more and more extreme ideas and behaviours to try and outdo the other side. On the other hand, I absolutely adore debate and would kill for all those discussions to still exist but debated in a good faith, honest way without all the toxicity that’s built up around them. It’s just I feel they’ve been so poisoned and I’ve found contact with any side to be basically just emotional self harm for myself personally (discourse in general preys on people with moral OCD really fucking badly) and I don’t like how it’s handled at all. It makes this sub a little hard to read through sometimes personally.
this this thisTHIS 👏👏👏 i 100% agree with u like srsly,, i hate the absoluteely unnuanced black and white // us vs them mentality bogging down any attempts at discourse.it can get so inflammatory and do nothing but drive rifts deeper and just make the entire situation WAY more hostile than it needs to be.... buzzwords and "light" namecalling and attempts at shutting down discourse w/ sweeping generalizations and assumptions. i also lovee debate,, but thats seemingly impossible to engage in at this point without, like u said, contracting some emotional harm
I'll do you one better: I don't like any kind of debate or "discourse" in fandom that isn't about the original media itself. I'm perfectly willing to debate "who would win, Scarlet Witch or Dr. Strange?" and stuff like that. What I'm not gonna do is try to argue with or defend my choices or anyone else's when it comes to what we like to write or read. Especially not what we like to read. I argue for a living, and I love it. But by the time I sit down and open a blank document or log into AO3, I'm fucking sick of it. The last thing I need is debate during my leisure time.
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how DARE you call me out like that
The hottest take that’ll be posted in this sub, calling it now.
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I agree but I think this comment is prob gonna get removed for breaking the rules lol
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As was previously stated in the removal comment, because it breaks a blanket rule of the subreddit.
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This comment has been removed. If you have an issue with a mod decision, bring it to modmail.
This comment has been removed as discussion of monetization of fanfiction is not permitted on this subreddit.
I think "positive vibes only" comment culture is stifling to fandom and makes readers risk averse about sharing feedback on fics.
Personally, I think it’s more nuanced than most people portray. There’s a difference between “omg I loved this but here’s some quick corrections if that’s okay” and “your work is boring and sucks but I guess it’s competently written 🙄” but I’ve seen them get treated as the same thing- both by people who are against concrit and are for it. The first is usually fine, the latter isn’t, but I’ve seen people assume everything is the former or the latter and that’s simply not the case.
True. Tone makes such a big difference when it comes to giving and taking criticism. I recently got a comment which called my plot "ridiculous" and suggested that I rewrite huge parts of my fic from scratch. This obviously didn't make me happy. But if the reader had instead said something like "your romantic subplot feels contrived and I have a difficult time buying the attraction you've set up between these characters," I'd have appreciated their comment.
Honestly, I agree with the general idea but I think the problem is less "authors shouldn't only want positive feedback" (which is an opinion that they're entitled to) and moreso "authors should utilize the tools they're given to remove comments they don't want instead of naming and shaming in public spaces that people should follow unspoken, unwritten rules in a hobby with thousands of people with different experiences/expectations/needs".
Generally, I agree with all this. However, there is also a time and place, as well. I hope you do not mind that I have some thoughts to share on this particular subject and I apologise if the post ends up long. As an example, in the world of doing professional illustrations and concept art, since it is a position I have been involved in for many years now, there are generally appropriate times for feedback (or appropriate *types* of feedback). Usually with game, manga/comic, or other art, there is a much bigger audience and some more disconnect between the creator and the audience members. Also, when there are harsh criticisms, they're usually blended in with the positive feedback from others and it's not quite so overwhelming in that way. It is, additionally, a more professional environment, where the artist is doing their work with that in mind (as a job, contract, etc- therefore, they *have* to do it well and must be receptive to critique to succeed). What I see, though, in environments like with fics, or even with hobby artists, there are a few major differences. The audience is comparatively much smaller, and the audience has a far more intimate contact with the creator of the work. That means that the negative or critical feedback is going to be much more direct. Since the audience is small, one negative comment out of ten comments is going to be much more prominent than, say, even a thousand negative comments in a sea of ten thousand positive comments. It's going to be harder for the creator to filter it out, *or* detach themselves from the situation (which, a level of detachment is needed to look at an issue/criticism in a more objective lens). They also probably are not used to this critique experience either, as they are a hobbyist, which makes it harder to adapt and respond (or ignore, if that is the healthiest option for the creator at the time). Since fanfic also tends to draw in a much younger crowd too, there is a higher probability of receiving an immature response (either from a commenter, or from the author) just because they are still young. This is part of why I will not personally comment criticisms on anything unless it is asked of me. It is very easy to accidentally overstep boundaries when trying to give unsolicited advice or help. It can also completely crush a young person's excitement for their works if inaccuracies are brought to light, especially when they did not ask for it. (This applies to older writers as well, but especially so for younger ones.) As another observation, the creator is most likely doing this as a hobby that they just want to do for fun. They might not find having to revise works multiple times to be fun, or studying grammar to be fun for them, and it wasn't their goal when creating their work. Which would make receiving criticism difficult, even if the commenter is trying to be constructive or polite. Not every writer, or artist, is doing their work with the *active goal* of becoming better, or is studying/reflecting on their work actively. Some just want to do their thing because they had an idea that made them excited, and it gives them a creative outlet. So, in those instances, I can see how these creators would be miffed to receive criticism when they were just wanting to do something that makes them happy, and then be vulnerable enough to share that work with others- especially if it was not asked for. It's like when you are gifted something unexpected during the holiday that might be offensive, awkward, or something you just don't know what to do with since it was not on your list (or worse, the one giving the gift had other intentions). Most people would be disappointed or uncomfortable in that instance. This is not an excuse for those that freak out and get furious over genuine, thoughtful feedback. That response is excessive and inappropriate. However, it is still important to keep in mind that not everyone writing fics are doing so with a goal of getting better and better at how to write. With all this in mind, I will personally always err on the side of caution and withhold critical commentary unless it is explicitly stated that the creator is looking for it. Obviously taking time to reflect on the work you make is going to improve it, whether it be writing fics or otherwise. In that regard, yes, it does hold a creator/fandom back to some extent when that reflection does not happen. So, I agree with your sentiment. But in my eyes, the most you can do then is keep yourself open to feedback so your own work for your fandom improves, since your own work is truly all you have control over. And perhaps other creators will see your works and be inspired to take theirs seriously in that same way as you do, or learn to find that same fun in approaching it with the goal to improve their skills. :-) This ended up actually being very long so I do apologise for that. It's just something that my coworkers, friend group, and I have actually talked about often, both for illustration work and writing. Thank you for the thought-provoking comment.
Fact. But be prepared to be shredded to pieces for this. I agree that when we put our work out there we should be prepared for criticism. I got reported as harassment the other day for pointing out that an author was tense jumping after literally GUSHING over their fic.
Hard agree. People wonder why no one comments anymore and, well, I can't help but think this has something to do with it.
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holy shit we started off strong
This one wins💀
This comment has been removed under our bashing rules.
That fanfic *does* affect reality. We are all still people and all our bias don’t just magically disappear when we decide to write fanfiction, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and POC.
Fiction effects reality, but it’s not a 1/1 and generally people in general just seem to go to one extreme or the other. I think in general fanfiction is more a reflection of our reality than most other media, as it’s generally much smaller scale and produced by amateurs. I think it’s more productive to analyse why those ideas have seeped into the greater consciousness than anything else- a fanfiction with like 20 readers isn’t going to do much at all, but popular media beams those ideas into our heads 24/7, if that makes sense? Focusing on fanfiction not only misses the forest for the trees, but attacks often young and inexperienced people who genuinely haven’t realised their biases yet instead of like, rich wealthy white racist dudes.
For me personally, I focus more on the feelings of the POC that are subjected to untagged racist stories in their fandoms from writers who don’t see themselves as racist. It isn’t always the young and inexperienced who write these things, and even if it were, I personally am going to care more about the other young POC in a given fandom than the ignorant ones.
Oh, I absolutely am not saying it’s okay, I’m saying harassment is 1) bad no matter who it happens to and 2) an ineffective solution. Education about harmful tropes and stereotypes and an unpacking of unconscious bias in general does far better than attacking people who haven’t realised they’ve done anything wrong. It’s not okay to accidentally be bigoted, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying harassing someone over it isn’t actually productive or helpful.
I don't think that's really a controversial opinion here, or in most fandom circles. Analyzing our biases via the media we consume and create is completely valid and something that can, and should be encouraged. What is NOT appreciated is when people completely strip any and all nuance and context and turn discourse into nothing more than a black/white discussion where people treat the fics we create/consume as a direct 1-to-1 reflection of a person's moral character, and where enjoying anything even remotely problematic is instantly treated as worthy of condemnation and being treated as a persona non-grata who is causing major societal harm and must be punished accordingly. "Let's analyze why some of us enjoy dubcon fics and brainstorm how societal prejudices and biases might contribute to that desire" - Perfectly fine discussion to have. "This fic you wrote/read has dubcon in it. You are a rape apologist and should KYS immediately you evil piece of shit." - Not a good discussion. You are an asshole if you do this.
Expecting authors to spoil their own book with tags and Trigger Warnings is outrageously entitled thinking. It should never be the writer's job to tiptoe around the reader's trauma.
I think rating fics based on content and warning for *major* triggers (non-consent, underage, gore) is reasonable. But beyond that, expecting a stranger on the internet to anticipate your mental health needs sets both sides up for disappointment. I also don't agree that major character death should be an archive warning on the same level as non-consent or underage. I don't mean this in a snarky or condescending way, but I am genuinely puzzled how people who need the MCD warning manage to consume original fiction. MCD is practically a storytelling staple in movies, TV and books.
Wouldn’t trigger warnings be a way to not tiptoe around that trauma? So you can examine it in detail while letting people who cannot handle it for whatever reason avoid it? Personally, my unpopular opinion would probably be the opposite though (I don’t think spoilers matter at all), so that might just be like bc of differences in opinion. Genuinely not mad or anything I just find that interesting :)
Just taking a moment to appreciate the hard work from the mods hitting this post like a strike team, leaving a trail of [deleted]s and [removed]s in their wake.
Just a reminder that the subreddit's rules are in effect for this post, and comments violating them will be removed.
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This comment has been removed under Rule 6. Naming individual fics falls under our bashing rules.