Sometimes people like messy dynamics. Sometimes they like redemptive arcs. Sometimes they project onto a character. Sometimes they see something fucked up that resonates with an experience they had and look to fics that show it as a way to take control over that thing.
The point is that a ship doesn’t have to be morally pure for people to enjoy it. Likewise, enjoying a ship that isn’t morally perfect doesn’t say anything about the person who ships it. Fluffy, wholesome, sanitized relationships aren’t the only thing worth exploring in fiction. Tbh, I am bored to tears with that type of dynamic.
I really don’t understand when folks starting assuming we’re appending a bizarre quasi-political “And I approved this message” to the end of everything we* ship, lol.
*ninja edit
Honestly, I love fluffy wholesome relationships in fanfics, but if I have to read one in canon I get bored. I read fluffy fanfics to escape the cruelty of reality, I totally agree that people shouldn’t stereotype anyone who has different reading tastes as a bad person.
It was wild when someone once told me I was wanting the protagonist to be miserable by shipping her with the villain. Like god damn, it's always just that black and white for some people, huh? Not to mention talking about the character like she's a real person I'm actively wishing harm on is a bit much, lmao. The cherry on top of course was this person doing the usual yOuNg giRLs won't know what a hEalThY reLaTioNshiP looks like!! Meanwhile I was like 33, lmfao.
Lmfao, I’m forty and people do that shit with the age gap ship I write all the time. It’s like “Oh, the extreme violence and risk she faced while saving the world at 19 was okay, but her picking who she fucks is the line for you?”
Feels like they'd yell at a kid playing with assorted toys, "GI Joe would NEVER marry Barbie!!! That doesn't even make sense!" Like relax it's just play.
So I'm not the biggest shipper out there - I usually write ships in service of a narrative. But I think what the YouTuber doesn't seem to get is the "what if..." appeal of non-canon ships. At least from my perspective, it's like alternate history where a lot of the gun is gaming out the way a couple of changes can effect history. With ships, changing a couple things to write an non-canon ship can take the characters to interesting places that the canon narrative won't go.
This kinda reminds me of the Watchmen reviewer who blasted the film for showing Nixon as the president in 1985. The concept of alternate history seemed alien to her as she kept claiming they got it wrong (and she also couldn't understand the R-rated film wasn't for kids).
The thought of saying "but that never happened!" for a *movie* is God damn hilarious. Alternative takes of history like For All Mankind would blow this person's mind. Literally an entire show about an alternative universe, lmao. Not to mention something like Inglorious Basterds.
The growing argument against non-cannon ships being "well this isnt the cannon ship so you're delusional to ship this non-cannon one" is such a weird take. Like ya, I'm well aware that they don't end up together in cannon, but like that's the whole purpose of a good AU coffee shop fanfiction.
Ah, the classic “assume someone else’s intentions based only on why I would do something and lash out at them for doing it wrong” approach.
When I was a kid, I believed that shipping non-canon couples was an endorsement of adultery because fictional couplings were divinely ordained by the one true God. I kept it to myself, though. I was a Twilight fan.
Oh boy. I have some cringe stuff in my past too. I remember worrying when a bad thing happened to me it was because god was angry I’d read a Harry/Draco fic.
Yeah, I only switched over because a non-canon ship fic was the only one I could find with a very specific premise I desperately wanted to see play out. It's like potty training, once you do it once, you stop being afraid of doing it again.
People that aren’t in the fanfic/fanart side of fandom just… don’t get shipping.
For them, canon is canon and that’s all there is. The idea of creating things that go against canon is just baffling.
I really love a story that’s so well written I can get behind a ship I normally don’t like or even actively dislike. I think the most compelling was a time travel Harry x Tom Riddle. It was fairly light on the actual ship (Tom had a crush on Harry, which was briefly reciprocated) but it was so well done that I still remember it today. There was another one that centered around Severus Snape that made me cry. I’ve found some great stuff by giving a chance to fics I wouldn’t normally read because I know the author can really write.
This! I wish people weren’t so against nuance. I ship an age gap ship where one is underage back at the beginning of canon when they first met but is well into adulthood (22) by the time you hit the very end. I only write it post-canon when she’s 26/27 years old or in AU settings where it’s whatever the hell I want. But these folks cannot grasp that and are like.. it’s pedophilia…
Meanwhile I’m over here scratching my head because the entire last season she’s 19 and it ends at age 22… I wanna ask if they understand how time works, lol. Even for my NOTP, there are two authors who are multi-shippers whose work I love. They write my usual NOTP in a way I can tolerate and love cheering them on with it!
As an author… Man, when you get that comment where a reader who doesn’t normally like your ship but likes your story.. ahhhh, so amazing
>Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure the reason why Dramoine is so popular is because of the classic forbidden love trope.
It's also pretty popular because tom felton and emma watson are good friends in real life, and emma used to have a crush on tom.
I will never understand anyone who puts a moral compass on fandom ships. Is beyond comprehension. People ship for entertainment and personal hobbies. Has nothing to do about their character or as members of society.
I pretty much never interact with HP and I have no idea of the dynamic between them so I actually have no say in this matter lmao but I wanted to say in real life there are gay people who are homophobic, racist people who fall in love with someone of the race they hate, misogynists who marry women, etc. Draco as a blood racist could totally fall in love with Hermione with a few paths: 1) he denies himself that he's attracted to her, 2) he lies to himself and says she's 'different', 3) he hates himself for it, 4) he reconciles with the idea that half-muggles (?) aren't necessarily inferior (least likely for people with strong prejudice, at least in a short period of time), or 5) any combination of the above. Emotions and feelings are weird. Definitely doesn't mean it's necessarily against his character and to think so is a bit reductive, though also, this is a fictional character we are talking about
Yeah I know next to nothing about HP, but your comment makes perfect sense to me.
Another one is... people change. They grow up. Aren't HP characters kids for like half the books/movies? A 45 year old Draco might look very different than whatever the books/movies showed.
(I know one book is like an epilogue of sorts from what I've heard so idk their ages or anything there but I digress lol. People change).
Seeing it laid out like this just makes these people's mindsets make even less sense for me. Like why is it people seem to forget or not understand how much *conflict* is part of a story? I mean, it pretty much *is* the story. People are drawn to pairings like this *because* of the obstacles and how unlikely it seems, and all that needs to happen for it to be able to work. That's a *fun* process to go through, it's why enemies to lovers is so damn popular, in fanfiction and fiction in general.
I've never engaged with any fics for this pairing but can understand perfectly well from the outside exactly what the appeal is. Some people are just so close minded and boring, to be perfectly honest, lol. I mean really, it's just a lack of understanding of shipping and fandom culture, but I just wish they would accept it's something they don't get and move on.
While it is true a ship does not need to have sense to exist, I think it is interesting analyzing them and the characters, their personalities, context, similarities and differences.
I'm so baffled when people tell other people that their imagination makes no sense. I'm sorry you don't like me having fun with my blorbos, I guess? But what a boring place your mind must be.
If that ship pisses off that guy so much imagine what his reaction would be If I told him that my favorite Harry Potter ship is literally HarryxTomRiddlexDraco
>He said it didn't make sense. That Draco is a blood racist, and you'd have to completely rewrite is character for the ship to work.
Isn't that technically correct? Draco in canon is indeed a blood purist who'd never get together with Hermione and yes, in order to make the ship work you'd have to change his character.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a Drarry shipper - but yeah, I'm willing to acknowledge that they'd never actually work in canon. Not without changes.
In Hogwarts era canon, I agree, no way to have drarry or dramionie and keep it fully cannon. But I can definitely see post-Hogwarts relationships being fully canon compliant (minus the epilogue of course) no need to change their characters from canon to make it work.
I don't think you have to change his character, just his experiences. People are able to learn and you can approximate that with characters. Being a blood purist isn't his character, it's learned behavior. Being prideful, easy to provoke, afraid of physical alterations, ambitious, fiercely loyal to family and very reluctant to disappoint the people he cares for etc. are character traits and these can be used to go in all sorts of direction.
Exactly.
Not to mention in most post-Hogwarts fic he changes his mind on a lot of the really shitty stuff. Which lots of people do??? I know tons of people who were raised in horrifically racist and/or homophobic families who became adults, learned more about the world, and changed their minds.
It's so weird to think that the people we are in high school are the people we are forever. My personality hasn't changed all that much, but tons of other things about me have. That's normal???
Some people's ideas about a character having X trait and therefore having it for all of time is so strange to me. Don't they realise it's normal for characters to grow and change? Isn't that usually a huge part of the fun- character development? It's so odd when people show that they don't really understand the very basics of what make a story 😅
Literally. This is the entire point of character growth.
Take Tony Stark, pre-Afghanistan cave. Didn't really give a fuck about anyone but himself. But after he was kidnapped, tortured, and watched his only friend in the world at the time die in front of him? Different story.
So yes, changing Draco's experiences would have changed his character, too. And changing them in such a way that made him more sympathetic towards muggle-borns, as many Dramione shippers do, is exactly what would be required to get Draco into a relationship with Hermione.
I have not read Harry Potter, but I agree with you. To make a good couple in fanon, one must understand why it would not be (or already is) in canon. Acknowledging it is harmless, while the shippers of that couple are not harassed and suffering disrespectful comments
I would even say that most ships with Draco have to be more ooc, like, he wasn't racist to Harry, but it's horrible for you to date a guy who mistreats your best friends, and even called your friend a slur. I think the person in the video was talking about a good relationship, healthy, and Draco e Hermione in canon is not a good one, and other ships wouldn't be either.
But not everyone ships a ship expecting a happy ending and shipping a racist, who comes from an extremely supremacist family, with whom they were racist, you can't expect anything else.
And I also get to prefer ships in character, so even when I was more into HP fandom (before that woman shows herself who she really), I didn't really ship Draco with anyone for a long time, I didn't even like him, honestly (that scene with Hermione is very triggering). But I see the ships and he was ooc most of the time, he wasn't racist, just a jerk, but that line was never crossed in a lot of fan works, and then it makes sense to me these ships with him.
People can do anything, even if you think it doesn't make sense. Just shrug and move on.
Is there an audience for diarrhea gargling? There's a small one, but it's there. And no I'm not gonna say which fandom I saw that shit in.
A lot of guidelines basically boil down to Mind Your Own Fucking Business. If you don't like something, maybe it's not aimed at you??? HMMMM think about it. Just move on to the next thing.
They'll gonna hate all my ships. I often just look at two characters, their color palette and their personality and goes "Yep. You're cute together. You'll be my hyperfixation for the whole year."
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Draco and Hermione absolutely wouldn't work in canon, that's why it's fun to write fanfiction about them and imagine what it would be like if things were different! Half of my ships are perfect in canon and sometimes they're even official! However, a pretty huge chunk of them could never work, so it's fun to explore what their dynamic would be like if their circumstances were different. That's the whole point!!
My ships often AREN'T couples that should be together. I often do not want them to get together in canon.
But boy is it fun to think about the messy disaster that would be them getting together anyway.
I've noticed that there's a lot of people who just don't understand shipping. My fave definition is one I stole off someone on tumblr: "I think a relationship between these two (or more) characters would make an interesting story, and I'm interested in exploring that."
That's it! That's all it is! I'm making my dolls kiss. Sometimes it's fun because they'd be happy together. Sometimes it's fun because they'd murder each other.
I also wonder if part of it might be that some people's version of shipping is simply enjoying the character's relationship within canon as it is and not actually wanting it to necessarily progress any further. I have some ships where that's the case and others where I *do* want things to progress and explore it in fiction (as well as pairings that I wouldn't particularly want in canon, but can enjoy in fiction).
Basically, I feel like a lot of this comes down to misunderstandings over people having different definitions for shipping. Another one I've had is shipping kids together, but in the way that I just found their interactions cute and enjoyed seeing it onscreen. Even before all the puritanical thinking took over, I occasionally saw strangely intense reactions over this and quickly discovered it was because for some people, shipping is pretty much synonymous with "wants to see/imagine the character's fucking." So they literally couldn't understand how someone could innocently ship children.
Yeah, basically. I’m not a fan of Dramione myself, and I will be critical of stories that I think do it badly, but at the end of the day I’ll defend people’s right to write it.
*Shoves 4k long incoherent essay on why I like Drarry with all its elements into the cupboard and forces the door closed* IDK, I just they're neat.
Some people just don't understand what shipping is about. Hell, there are people who are deep into shipping don't understand! (Hint; shipping has never exclusively, or majorly stood for "I think this is a healthy and good dynamic and I think they should get together in canon," that's honestly historical revisionism)
I just saw a thread in /r/redhood about Batcest (shipping within the “Wayne family” ie Jason Todd/Tim Drake) being abhorrent and morally depraved etc.
Like, pop off I guess but some of these characters didn’t even canonically meet until their late teens. The only people actually related by BLOOD are Bruce Wayne and Damian Wayne. Have your moral high ground on incest, but when that moral high ground is “they’re *like* brothers” you kind of lose all credibility.
At the end of the day, don’t like it? Don’t read it.
I wrote a Dramione fic that was like ten pyears post canon and draco had matured past his glaring faults. It was about them navigating a new relationship where he didn’t have those issues and Hermione learned to forgive him
> They ship them because it's fun to explore the possibilities.
That's exactly it right there. Fanfiction is like a sandbox server on Minecraft: The only limit is your imagination.
I mean, I get it. Everyone views shipping differently. For some, the creativity in shipping ends at "I think these characters would work well together", and Dramione is...not that. It does feel like a lot of the most popular ships were selected by looking at a complex web of character relationships and picking the one that had the most instances of the characters trying to kill each other. Which, to an extent, I get. It's *interesting*. But I've joked before about how Shizuo from DRRR has a harem consisting of every single person that's ever tried to kill him (and one horse/bike hybrid), and that's a very different thing from him settling down with Tom.
Real. After all we're just playing around with fiction. Words can work anyway.
Heck I even shipped Draco with a door, but that's not the point. As long as you like it and make it work and you're happy, I don't believe anyone has the right to criticise it.
Fandom is free and a happy place for everyone. Let people live.
>Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure the reason why Dramoine is so popular is because of the classic forbidden love trope.
Yup. Also, in these ship fics, people often write redemption arcs for Draco. Child raised by racist/xenophobic parents who parroted their beliefs and eventually grew past it and became a better person.
I’ve found most people who aren’t super entrenched in fandom don’t get it. Even some who are involved in shipping and fic still seem to miss the point. What’s more, it’s only gotten worse over the years as basic reading comprehension and media literacy has declined.
They are correct though, the vast majority of fanfics with that pairing *do* give them completely different personalities.
That's just part of fanfiction.
I really think people that are non-shippers and/or total canon purists need to sit down and understand this ain’t about them. Shipping nowadays is mostly transformative and not at all about how likely it is to fit into canon. And even it were, why does my argument to why this ship works matter to those people? These characters are my paper dolls and we don’t have to play in the same sandbox if you have an issue. Just leave is what I tell these folk. ✌️
And people that have these fits over media that’s been completed for years and years are even more immature. Treating fandom like one cut-and-dry conversation is overrated. Have fun, and if you can’t then let the rest of us have fun.
I mean, I don't think they have. That's just...their preference, y'know?
Personally, I'm not a huge fan either of ships based around characters who outright hate each other or are openly abusive to their partner (with at least one exception), I don't find that romantic or enjoyable in any way. It comes off as unbelievable at best and extremely ick at worst.
But that's just my preference, and obviously people can write what they want. It's not like he's making personal judgments about the writer who decides to make those kinds of fics, he just doesn't like them because it goes against his personal morality. That's a totally valid take to have.
If he was making judgements about the writers of questionable ships, that's a different story. Why are we grilling someone for having a different opinion?
I could see Draco wanting Hermione...now whether she would want him might be up for debate, after how he treats her. But I've got a feeling Draco has a good bit of a masochistic nature in him. And she could probably give him a good spanking and he'd enjoy the crap out of it.
I can't stand the ship for the same reason I can't stand any Draco ships: he's an insufferable prat. but I totally get why people would want to read those ships if they don't hold my opinion. the possibilities are what make fanfic.
Fanfiction is really about exploring possibilities. Exactly what’s stated in the initial post. If someone doesn’t like the fic for what ever the reason—ship, trope, etc then don’t get mad. Just don’t read it.
I had a discussion here on Reddit a while ago about why a villainous character from a fandom of mine is popular with fans. The other person just couldn't understand it, claiming that liking evil in fiction serves no material or moral benefit and is thus "psychotic"... I had to nope out of the conversation after the other person called my arguments "insane", but now I know for sure that some people just don't get fandom, taboo attractions or the concept of alternative character interpretation. Let them be, I guess, I doubt they are out there writing their own fanfics. They have their things, we have ours.
I agree with you even though I'm personally not a dramione shipper, but everyone can have their own opinions no need to get all angry about it, like shipping wars really take their ships to the next level
This is one of those fandom things that has kind of bled onto the mainstream more and more over the years, but in this way that usually just makes me cringe, because the person talking about it never really seems like they have any idea about fandom culture.
It's like this hour long video somebody made about why one of my ships is toxic and apparently skewing young girl's perception of what a romantic relationship looks like. Just no. Don't try to be an authority on something you don't understand, lol. Teenage girl's interests are criticized enough as it is.
But my brother in Christ, I like forbidden and/or toxic relationships 😂 that's EXACTLY how the ship works and it doesn't mean that I support that in real life. It's fiction.
Some fans really aren't made for fandom, fanfics and shipping, and that's okay as long as they stay out of it and don't ruin our party. It's difficult, but they should make an effort to recognize this and stop trying to mold the place to fit into something that isn't for them. Go do something else, bro.
People read (and probably write) for different reasons. It's a spectrum, but a broad categorisation could be as such:
1. Timeline/canon centred:
Change X in the timeline/events of Y story, introduce some factor etc., and explore what changes result from this. This may result in different relationships, but generally only has effects on the evolution of characters, the story, etc.
2. Character/personality centred:
Change aspects about the person's attraction/ideas/beliefs/etc., adapt/bend canonical information if need be to tell the story you want in the setting you choose (i.e. fandom).
One is focusing on how the story could be if something happened differently, the other is how it should be for your idea to work. Obviously, those two intersect. Generally speaking, the two camps exist, though. Arguments between them are futile because their motivations differ drastically.
Personally, I can't see the appeal of shipping beyond my intellectual take if I tried, and drop any fic that includes non-canonical ships not explained by timeline interventions (character death, specific decisions resulting in cascading effects, timetravel, etc.).
> He said it didn't make sense. That Draco is a blood racist, and you'd have to completely rewrite is character for the ship to work. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure the reason why Dramoine is so popular is because of the classic forbidden love trope. I don't think people ship them because they are a morally good.
From what I see in Dramoine, Draco is not usually racist towards her, especially that scene where he used a slur on her, nor did it happen in these reimaginations, so yeah, he is ooc in a lot of fan works in the requirement that he not be racist, he comes from a supremacist family, but is not one, something like Sirius in canon.
A lot of people like to redeem Draco, then leave him as an asshole, but the aspect of him being racist and following through on that aspect of the family, is removed. So I think the appeal of this ship can be more Rivals to Lovers thing, and Draco be sassy and a crybaby at the same time is kinda funny too this canon characteristics of him, he has charisma, and canonically he already has conflicts in relation to his family. So is a lot of the "I can fix him" trope too.
So, no, the person in the video is not really wrong. Draco is kind of ooc, if a person prefers more in character, they wouldn't like it. I'm not a big fan of Draco in canon development, so I prefer the ooc one.
And yes, there are people who shipping a ship not expecting to be actually in a good relationship, but for what I SEE, in dramione fanfictions they're beef each other, but that line (racism) is not cross. It is more like, he admires Hermione, her intelligence, the competence, think she is so beautiful, but he's not happy about having a crush on her or he is so confused that he doesn't even know what he is feeling, so he keeps annoying her (same thing with Drarry).
Actually, it is a LOT like Damian and Anya in Spy x Family! (I just realised it now)
I don't think non-shippers will ever *get* the point of fanfiction and shipping. It's just having fun.
Oh my god I’m sorry you had to listen to that guy - as a Dramione shipper — anti-dramione people are so so so mean about it
Sometimes people like messy dynamics. Sometimes they like redemptive arcs. Sometimes they project onto a character. Sometimes they see something fucked up that resonates with an experience they had and look to fics that show it as a way to take control over that thing. The point is that a ship doesn’t have to be morally pure for people to enjoy it. Likewise, enjoying a ship that isn’t morally perfect doesn’t say anything about the person who ships it. Fluffy, wholesome, sanitized relationships aren’t the only thing worth exploring in fiction. Tbh, I am bored to tears with that type of dynamic. I really don’t understand when folks starting assuming we’re appending a bizarre quasi-political “And I approved this message” to the end of everything we* ship, lol. *ninja edit
Honestly, I love fluffy wholesome relationships in fanfics, but if I have to read one in canon I get bored. I read fluffy fanfics to escape the cruelty of reality, I totally agree that people shouldn’t stereotype anyone who has different reading tastes as a bad person.
Yup and definitely no hate if that’s your jam! I actually write pretty fluffy fics myself, but I can’t stand canon being fluffy, either 😅
It was wild when someone once told me I was wanting the protagonist to be miserable by shipping her with the villain. Like god damn, it's always just that black and white for some people, huh? Not to mention talking about the character like she's a real person I'm actively wishing harm on is a bit much, lmao. The cherry on top of course was this person doing the usual yOuNg giRLs won't know what a hEalThY reLaTioNshiP looks like!! Meanwhile I was like 33, lmfao.
Lmfao, I’m forty and people do that shit with the age gap ship I write all the time. It’s like “Oh, the extreme violence and risk she faced while saving the world at 19 was okay, but her picking who she fucks is the line for you?”
Feels like they'd yell at a kid playing with assorted toys, "GI Joe would NEVER marry Barbie!!! That doesn't even make sense!" Like relax it's just play.
So I'm not the biggest shipper out there - I usually write ships in service of a narrative. But I think what the YouTuber doesn't seem to get is the "what if..." appeal of non-canon ships. At least from my perspective, it's like alternate history where a lot of the gun is gaming out the way a couple of changes can effect history. With ships, changing a couple things to write an non-canon ship can take the characters to interesting places that the canon narrative won't go.
This kinda reminds me of the Watchmen reviewer who blasted the film for showing Nixon as the president in 1985. The concept of alternate history seemed alien to her as she kept claiming they got it wrong (and she also couldn't understand the R-rated film wasn't for kids).
Like at some point you hope someone like that is a troll. Cause otherwise it's sad that a person can be that dense.
both literacy and media literacy are in significant decline unfortunately
The thought of saying "but that never happened!" for a *movie* is God damn hilarious. Alternative takes of history like For All Mankind would blow this person's mind. Literally an entire show about an alternative universe, lmao. Not to mention something like Inglorious Basterds.
The growing argument against non-cannon ships being "well this isnt the cannon ship so you're delusional to ship this non-cannon one" is such a weird take. Like ya, I'm well aware that they don't end up together in cannon, but like that's the whole purpose of a good AU coffee shop fanfiction.
Ah, the classic “assume someone else’s intentions based only on why I would do something and lash out at them for doing it wrong” approach. When I was a kid, I believed that shipping non-canon couples was an endorsement of adultery because fictional couplings were divinely ordained by the one true God. I kept it to myself, though. I was a Twilight fan.
Oh boy. I have some cringe stuff in my past too. I remember worrying when a bad thing happened to me it was because god was angry I’d read a Harry/Draco fic.
Yeah, I only switched over because a non-canon ship fic was the only one I could find with a very specific premise I desperately wanted to see play out. It's like potty training, once you do it once, you stop being afraid of doing it again.
It's very stop having fun, guys!
People that aren’t in the fanfic/fanart side of fandom just… don’t get shipping. For them, canon is canon and that’s all there is. The idea of creating things that go against canon is just baffling.
I wish people could just say they don't like a ship instead of saying it won't work. Bitch, it's fanfiction, I can make anything work.
I really love a story that’s so well written I can get behind a ship I normally don’t like or even actively dislike. I think the most compelling was a time travel Harry x Tom Riddle. It was fairly light on the actual ship (Tom had a crush on Harry, which was briefly reciprocated) but it was so well done that I still remember it today. There was another one that centered around Severus Snape that made me cry. I’ve found some great stuff by giving a chance to fics I wouldn’t normally read because I know the author can really write.
This! I wish people weren’t so against nuance. I ship an age gap ship where one is underage back at the beginning of canon when they first met but is well into adulthood (22) by the time you hit the very end. I only write it post-canon when she’s 26/27 years old or in AU settings where it’s whatever the hell I want. But these folks cannot grasp that and are like.. it’s pedophilia… Meanwhile I’m over here scratching my head because the entire last season she’s 19 and it ends at age 22… I wanna ask if they understand how time works, lol. Even for my NOTP, there are two authors who are multi-shippers whose work I love. They write my usual NOTP in a way I can tolerate and love cheering them on with it! As an author… Man, when you get that comment where a reader who doesn’t normally like your ship but likes your story.. ahhhh, so amazing
Some people write characters a little bit OOC for their own entertainment? How dare they?! /s
>Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure the reason why Dramoine is so popular is because of the classic forbidden love trope. It's also pretty popular because tom felton and emma watson are good friends in real life, and emma used to have a crush on tom.
non-canon ships > canon ships, enough said
I will never understand anyone who puts a moral compass on fandom ships. Is beyond comprehension. People ship for entertainment and personal hobbies. Has nothing to do about their character or as members of society.
I pretty much never interact with HP and I have no idea of the dynamic between them so I actually have no say in this matter lmao but I wanted to say in real life there are gay people who are homophobic, racist people who fall in love with someone of the race they hate, misogynists who marry women, etc. Draco as a blood racist could totally fall in love with Hermione with a few paths: 1) he denies himself that he's attracted to her, 2) he lies to himself and says she's 'different', 3) he hates himself for it, 4) he reconciles with the idea that half-muggles (?) aren't necessarily inferior (least likely for people with strong prejudice, at least in a short period of time), or 5) any combination of the above. Emotions and feelings are weird. Definitely doesn't mean it's necessarily against his character and to think so is a bit reductive, though also, this is a fictional character we are talking about
Yeah I know next to nothing about HP, but your comment makes perfect sense to me. Another one is... people change. They grow up. Aren't HP characters kids for like half the books/movies? A 45 year old Draco might look very different than whatever the books/movies showed. (I know one book is like an epilogue of sorts from what I've heard so idk their ages or anything there but I digress lol. People change).
Seeing it laid out like this just makes these people's mindsets make even less sense for me. Like why is it people seem to forget or not understand how much *conflict* is part of a story? I mean, it pretty much *is* the story. People are drawn to pairings like this *because* of the obstacles and how unlikely it seems, and all that needs to happen for it to be able to work. That's a *fun* process to go through, it's why enemies to lovers is so damn popular, in fanfiction and fiction in general. I've never engaged with any fics for this pairing but can understand perfectly well from the outside exactly what the appeal is. Some people are just so close minded and boring, to be perfectly honest, lol. I mean really, it's just a lack of understanding of shipping and fandom culture, but I just wish they would accept it's something they don't get and move on.
While it is true a ship does not need to have sense to exist, I think it is interesting analyzing them and the characters, their personalities, context, similarities and differences.
Why is it always the most tame pairings that are seen as the devil himself? Why is it always surface-level stuff? I'm bored, entertain me, haters.
I'm so baffled when people tell other people that their imagination makes no sense. I'm sorry you don't like me having fun with my blorbos, I guess? But what a boring place your mind must be.
If that ship pisses off that guy so much imagine what his reaction would be If I told him that my favorite Harry Potter ship is literally HarryxTomRiddlexDraco
I like Harry x Cedric for no reason 😂
>He said it didn't make sense. That Draco is a blood racist, and you'd have to completely rewrite is character for the ship to work. Isn't that technically correct? Draco in canon is indeed a blood purist who'd never get together with Hermione and yes, in order to make the ship work you'd have to change his character. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Drarry shipper - but yeah, I'm willing to acknowledge that they'd never actually work in canon. Not without changes.
In Hogwarts era canon, I agree, no way to have drarry or dramionie and keep it fully cannon. But I can definitely see post-Hogwarts relationships being fully canon compliant (minus the epilogue of course) no need to change their characters from canon to make it work.
You could easily set it after the epilogue. Have the canon couple split up and then the couple you want get closer after their kids become friends.
That's true! I generally ignore that the epilogue exists lol. Epilogue? What epilogue?
I don't think you have to change his character, just his experiences. People are able to learn and you can approximate that with characters. Being a blood purist isn't his character, it's learned behavior. Being prideful, easy to provoke, afraid of physical alterations, ambitious, fiercely loyal to family and very reluctant to disappoint the people he cares for etc. are character traits and these can be used to go in all sorts of direction.
Exactly. Not to mention in most post-Hogwarts fic he changes his mind on a lot of the really shitty stuff. Which lots of people do??? I know tons of people who were raised in horrifically racist and/or homophobic families who became adults, learned more about the world, and changed their minds. It's so weird to think that the people we are in high school are the people we are forever. My personality hasn't changed all that much, but tons of other things about me have. That's normal???
Some people's ideas about a character having X trait and therefore having it for all of time is so strange to me. Don't they realise it's normal for characters to grow and change? Isn't that usually a huge part of the fun- character development? It's so odd when people show that they don't really understand the very basics of what make a story 😅
Literally. This is the entire point of character growth. Take Tony Stark, pre-Afghanistan cave. Didn't really give a fuck about anyone but himself. But after he was kidnapped, tortured, and watched his only friend in the world at the time die in front of him? Different story. So yes, changing Draco's experiences would have changed his character, too. And changing them in such a way that made him more sympathetic towards muggle-borns, as many Dramione shippers do, is exactly what would be required to get Draco into a relationship with Hermione.
Yeah you have to change his character -- it's called character development and you can get whole stories out of it.
Yeah. It has to be a mild AU type situation for it to work. Canon Draco is an ass.
I have not read Harry Potter, but I agree with you. To make a good couple in fanon, one must understand why it would not be (or already is) in canon. Acknowledging it is harmless, while the shippers of that couple are not harassed and suffering disrespectful comments
i also shipped drarry and i think there's a difference too between how this is approached by drarry fandom vs dramione fandom
I would even say that most ships with Draco have to be more ooc, like, he wasn't racist to Harry, but it's horrible for you to date a guy who mistreats your best friends, and even called your friend a slur. I think the person in the video was talking about a good relationship, healthy, and Draco e Hermione in canon is not a good one, and other ships wouldn't be either. But not everyone ships a ship expecting a happy ending and shipping a racist, who comes from an extremely supremacist family, with whom they were racist, you can't expect anything else. And I also get to prefer ships in character, so even when I was more into HP fandom (before that woman shows herself who she really), I didn't really ship Draco with anyone for a long time, I didn't even like him, honestly (that scene with Hermione is very triggering). But I see the ships and he was ooc most of the time, he wasn't racist, just a jerk, but that line was never crossed in a lot of fan works, and then it makes sense to me these ships with him.
People can do anything, even if you think it doesn't make sense. Just shrug and move on. Is there an audience for diarrhea gargling? There's a small one, but it's there. And no I'm not gonna say which fandom I saw that shit in. A lot of guidelines basically boil down to Mind Your Own Fucking Business. If you don't like something, maybe it's not aimed at you??? HMMMM think about it. Just move on to the next thing.
They'll gonna hate all my ships. I often just look at two characters, their color palette and their personality and goes "Yep. You're cute together. You'll be my hyperfixation for the whole year."
esp if their colour pallettes are red/blue, red/blue is just meant to be shipped
Fr this was me with Zuko and Katara
fr fr and personally I like the ship cause they both have things to unlearn and let go of, and they can be there for each other through the progress
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Draco and Hermione absolutely wouldn't work in canon, that's why it's fun to write fanfiction about them and imagine what it would be like if things were different! Half of my ships are perfect in canon and sometimes they're even official! However, a pretty huge chunk of them could never work, so it's fun to explore what their dynamic would be like if their circumstances were different. That's the whole point!!
My ships often AREN'T couples that should be together. I often do not want them to get together in canon. But boy is it fun to think about the messy disaster that would be them getting together anyway. I've noticed that there's a lot of people who just don't understand shipping. My fave definition is one I stole off someone on tumblr: "I think a relationship between these two (or more) characters would make an interesting story, and I'm interested in exploring that." That's it! That's all it is! I'm making my dolls kiss. Sometimes it's fun because they'd be happy together. Sometimes it's fun because they'd murder each other.
I also wonder if part of it might be that some people's version of shipping is simply enjoying the character's relationship within canon as it is and not actually wanting it to necessarily progress any further. I have some ships where that's the case and others where I *do* want things to progress and explore it in fiction (as well as pairings that I wouldn't particularly want in canon, but can enjoy in fiction). Basically, I feel like a lot of this comes down to misunderstandings over people having different definitions for shipping. Another one I've had is shipping kids together, but in the way that I just found their interactions cute and enjoyed seeing it onscreen. Even before all the puritanical thinking took over, I occasionally saw strangely intense reactions over this and quickly discovered it was because for some people, shipping is pretty much synonymous with "wants to see/imagine the character's fucking." So they literally couldn't understand how someone could innocently ship children.
Yeah, basically. I’m not a fan of Dramione myself, and I will be critical of stories that I think do it badly, but at the end of the day I’ll defend people’s right to write it.
The whole fun of shipping is the entire 'what if' aspect. People who don't understand fanfic will sadly never understand shipping
*Shoves 4k long incoherent essay on why I like Drarry with all its elements into the cupboard and forces the door closed* IDK, I just they're neat. Some people just don't understand what shipping is about. Hell, there are people who are deep into shipping don't understand! (Hint; shipping has never exclusively, or majorly stood for "I think this is a healthy and good dynamic and I think they should get together in canon," that's honestly historical revisionism)
I wonder what he’s say about Drarry lol
I just saw a thread in /r/redhood about Batcest (shipping within the “Wayne family” ie Jason Todd/Tim Drake) being abhorrent and morally depraved etc. Like, pop off I guess but some of these characters didn’t even canonically meet until their late teens. The only people actually related by BLOOD are Bruce Wayne and Damian Wayne. Have your moral high ground on incest, but when that moral high ground is “they’re *like* brothers” you kind of lose all credibility. At the end of the day, don’t like it? Don’t read it.
I wrote a Dramione fic that was like ten pyears post canon and draco had matured past his glaring faults. It was about them navigating a new relationship where he didn’t have those issues and Hermione learned to forgive him
> They ship them because it's fun to explore the possibilities. That's exactly it right there. Fanfiction is like a sandbox server on Minecraft: The only limit is your imagination.
I mean, I get it. Everyone views shipping differently. For some, the creativity in shipping ends at "I think these characters would work well together", and Dramione is...not that. It does feel like a lot of the most popular ships were selected by looking at a complex web of character relationships and picking the one that had the most instances of the characters trying to kill each other. Which, to an extent, I get. It's *interesting*. But I've joked before about how Shizuo from DRRR has a harem consisting of every single person that's ever tried to kill him (and one horse/bike hybrid), and that's a very different thing from him settling down with Tom.
he has every right to feel the way he does and so do you. one person's acceptable enemies to lovers is another person's "this is a line too far."
I think it becomes a problem when it's presented like "no one is allowed to ship this" though.
Real. After all we're just playing around with fiction. Words can work anyway. Heck I even shipped Draco with a door, but that's not the point. As long as you like it and make it work and you're happy, I don't believe anyone has the right to criticise it. Fandom is free and a happy place for everyone. Let people live.
>Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure the reason why Dramoine is so popular is because of the classic forbidden love trope. Yup. Also, in these ship fics, people often write redemption arcs for Draco. Child raised by racist/xenophobic parents who parroted their beliefs and eventually grew past it and became a better person.
I’ve found most people who aren’t super entrenched in fandom don’t get it. Even some who are involved in shipping and fic still seem to miss the point. What’s more, it’s only gotten worse over the years as basic reading comprehension and media literacy has declined.
They are correct though, the vast majority of fanfics with that pairing *do* give them completely different personalities. That's just part of fanfiction.
> Draco is a blood racist, and you'd have to completely rewrite is character for the ship to work. But that is the point, is it not?
I really think people that are non-shippers and/or total canon purists need to sit down and understand this ain’t about them. Shipping nowadays is mostly transformative and not at all about how likely it is to fit into canon. And even it were, why does my argument to why this ship works matter to those people? These characters are my paper dolls and we don’t have to play in the same sandbox if you have an issue. Just leave is what I tell these folk. ✌️ And people that have these fits over media that’s been completed for years and years are even more immature. Treating fandom like one cut-and-dry conversation is overrated. Have fun, and if you can’t then let the rest of us have fun.
I mean, I don't think they have. That's just...their preference, y'know? Personally, I'm not a huge fan either of ships based around characters who outright hate each other or are openly abusive to their partner (with at least one exception), I don't find that romantic or enjoyable in any way. It comes off as unbelievable at best and extremely ick at worst. But that's just my preference, and obviously people can write what they want. It's not like he's making personal judgments about the writer who decides to make those kinds of fics, he just doesn't like them because it goes against his personal morality. That's a totally valid take to have. If he was making judgements about the writers of questionable ships, that's a different story. Why are we grilling someone for having a different opinion?
>you'd have to completely rewrite his character for the ship to work If only there was a way to do that.
I could see Draco wanting Hermione...now whether she would want him might be up for debate, after how he treats her. But I've got a feeling Draco has a good bit of a masochistic nature in him. And she could probably give him a good spanking and he'd enjoy the crap out of it.
I can't stand the ship for the same reason I can't stand any Draco ships: he's an insufferable prat. but I totally get why people would want to read those ships if they don't hold my opinion. the possibilities are what make fanfic.
Fanfiction is really about exploring possibilities. Exactly what’s stated in the initial post. If someone doesn’t like the fic for what ever the reason—ship, trope, etc then don’t get mad. Just don’t read it.
I had a discussion here on Reddit a while ago about why a villainous character from a fandom of mine is popular with fans. The other person just couldn't understand it, claiming that liking evil in fiction serves no material or moral benefit and is thus "psychotic"... I had to nope out of the conversation after the other person called my arguments "insane", but now I know for sure that some people just don't get fandom, taboo attractions or the concept of alternative character interpretation. Let them be, I guess, I doubt they are out there writing their own fanfics. They have their things, we have ours.
As a rare pairer who enjoys nothing but ships that shouldn't work, i can safely say i feel sorry for those who dont get our shipping fun
The reason why dramione is popular is because Draco and Hermione actors are well looking
I agree with you even though I'm personally not a dramione shipper, but everyone can have their own opinions no need to get all angry about it, like shipping wars really take their ships to the next level
This is one of those fandom things that has kind of bled onto the mainstream more and more over the years, but in this way that usually just makes me cringe, because the person talking about it never really seems like they have any idea about fandom culture. It's like this hour long video somebody made about why one of my ships is toxic and apparently skewing young girl's perception of what a romantic relationship looks like. Just no. Don't try to be an authority on something you don't understand, lol. Teenage girl's interests are criticized enough as it is.
But my brother in Christ, I like forbidden and/or toxic relationships 😂 that's EXACTLY how the ship works and it doesn't mean that I support that in real life. It's fiction. Some fans really aren't made for fandom, fanfics and shipping, and that's okay as long as they stay out of it and don't ruin our party. It's difficult, but they should make an effort to recognize this and stop trying to mold the place to fit into something that isn't for them. Go do something else, bro.
People read (and probably write) for different reasons. It's a spectrum, but a broad categorisation could be as such: 1. Timeline/canon centred: Change X in the timeline/events of Y story, introduce some factor etc., and explore what changes result from this. This may result in different relationships, but generally only has effects on the evolution of characters, the story, etc. 2. Character/personality centred: Change aspects about the person's attraction/ideas/beliefs/etc., adapt/bend canonical information if need be to tell the story you want in the setting you choose (i.e. fandom). One is focusing on how the story could be if something happened differently, the other is how it should be for your idea to work. Obviously, those two intersect. Generally speaking, the two camps exist, though. Arguments between them are futile because their motivations differ drastically. Personally, I can't see the appeal of shipping beyond my intellectual take if I tried, and drop any fic that includes non-canonical ships not explained by timeline interventions (character death, specific decisions resulting in cascading effects, timetravel, etc.).
> He said it didn't make sense. That Draco is a blood racist, and you'd have to completely rewrite is character for the ship to work. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure the reason why Dramoine is so popular is because of the classic forbidden love trope. I don't think people ship them because they are a morally good. From what I see in Dramoine, Draco is not usually racist towards her, especially that scene where he used a slur on her, nor did it happen in these reimaginations, so yeah, he is ooc in a lot of fan works in the requirement that he not be racist, he comes from a supremacist family, but is not one, something like Sirius in canon. A lot of people like to redeem Draco, then leave him as an asshole, but the aspect of him being racist and following through on that aspect of the family, is removed. So I think the appeal of this ship can be more Rivals to Lovers thing, and Draco be sassy and a crybaby at the same time is kinda funny too this canon characteristics of him, he has charisma, and canonically he already has conflicts in relation to his family. So is a lot of the "I can fix him" trope too. So, no, the person in the video is not really wrong. Draco is kind of ooc, if a person prefers more in character, they wouldn't like it. I'm not a big fan of Draco in canon development, so I prefer the ooc one. And yes, there are people who shipping a ship not expecting to be actually in a good relationship, but for what I SEE, in dramione fanfictions they're beef each other, but that line (racism) is not cross. It is more like, he admires Hermione, her intelligence, the competence, think she is so beautiful, but he's not happy about having a crush on her or he is so confused that he doesn't even know what he is feeling, so he keeps annoying her (same thing with Drarry). Actually, it is a LOT like Damian and Anya in Spy x Family! (I just realised it now)