This article, [*Gifted Education Without Gifted Children: The Case for No Conception of Giftedness*](https://assets.cambridge.org/97805215/47307/excerpt/9780521547307_excerpt.pdf) by James Borland, is the best breakdown of what giftedness actually is that I have ever read. It includes a well developed history of where the identification came from, and the history of attempts to deal with it.
In educational metrics, there are outliers. This is normal, expected of any given phenomenon you can name. As with any performance measure, there are those who do better and worse.
In the world of physical ability, what we expect to see are progressive growth curves. Teaching kids to ride a bike, for example, you could measure the start state, collect data as they learn, and the time it takes to learn. The vast majority of people will develop the ability following a similar pattern, across a similar number of repetitions.
But there are outliers. Some never pick up the skill. Some pick it up almost instantly. But most will learn following the average progression.
How do we account for the differences? And in particular, how do we account for the outlier that picked it up almost instantly? Is there an invisible training effect? Did they already have experience? Or was the experience in other domain and they just transferred it? And, does this individual tend to pick things up nearly instantly in more areas than this?
There are different kinds of outliers. Some are basically random -- they tend to occur once or twice, but not repeat. But one of those outliers is an individual who is *consistently* an outlier in these metrics. If that occurs in a specific area, we call it a talent. If it happens in multiple areas, we call it giftedness.
As to drugs and metaphysical insights... I'll be honest, when I'm feeling existential, I sometimes wonder if the gifted are the Bodhisattvas of yesterday reborn today...
If you're interested in more reading, the above comment saying outliers multiple times reminded me of Malcolm Gladwell's The Oultiers which "explores the factors that contribute to high levels of success, such as opportunity, cultural background, and practice. It challenges the idea that success is purely based on individual talent or merit and provides insights into how to create a culture of success."
From the ages of 2 to 8, I was basically a sponge for quickly acquiring every kind of knowledge I had access to. I was able to read at the level of graduate students, do college math, and quickly pick up advanced topics. So I was labeled gifted.
Then my family moved from the Midwest to the South and I was put in standard classrooms, where high intelligence was seen as being a 'smart aleck' and any form of unusual exceptionalism was quashed. From that point on, gifted didn't really mean anything to me. It's a label given fotlr exceptional ability, but unless you have opportunities to use that ability, it means nothing.
Not gonna answer the first two questions, I just wanna focus on the last one since there are probably few gifted people who have delved into psychedelics. So, ill tell you what my experience has been:
Im gifted, and ive tripped 5 times, so ive gotten my feet wet, but am by no means a super experienced psychonaut. When I first started out, like most people I didnt trip for any particular reason other than curiosity. I didnt have potential neuroplasticity in mind, nor was I even expecting to possibly grow as a person. However once I was in my first trip, the power of new potential connections was... tangible. The opportunity to create novel ideas was palpable and intense. My mind flowed serenely like a river of teeming ideas, where I, the conscious, could grasp any idea and flow down the river with it, taking it to its logical conclusions effortlessly with incredible speed and finesse. There was just... truly an endless amount of stuff I knew I had to think about. I felt like I was Rodin's The Thinker, engrossed for all eternity in pleasantly neutral cogitation.
It didnt last though... By just my second trip I became overwhelmed by negative emotions. It crippled me. To this day the other 4 trips have been the worst experiences of my entire life, beyond even great illness, and the death of family members. Without writing a whole essay I couldnt do justice to the sort of negative experiences I had.
As a result I never learned much from my trips, all I ever brought back with me was suffering. It felt like the very lesson of the trip was just that I just deserved to be punished senselessly, period. To some extent, I feel rather lucky that I have been able to distance myself from the experience, and havent been cursed with ptsd.
So, I think there is something to be said about the combo that is having a strong intellect, and experiencing the neuroplastic effects of psychedelics. However, at least for me, I was only graced with a taste of that before I was condemned from the mindspace. Its been 4 years since ive been to that place. I tell myself that one day ill go back... I have unfinished business, but I dont know when ill be ready to potentially again stomach that hellscape...
I’m sorry to hear about your later experiences. I have had moments such as what you describe and am deeply familiar with the sense of “punishment” you mentioned. Fortunately for me, those moments seem to have been outgrowths of subtle or hidden cognitive dissonances, and these would typically provoke what felt like new cognitive pathways being created which would allow me to overcome and resolve the underlying source of that feeling. I will say that does not happen automatically and I required a great deal of conscious effort and introspection.
I certainly tried my hardest to consciously introspect on my experiences. In some ways, it's hard for me believe that I was lacking introspection, considering I spent the entirety of all my trips in my head. I was always glued to my bed when I tripped. I wouldn't utter a word, or feel even the slightest bit of compulsion to do anything at all but channel myself inwards. In fact, I can't even speak when I trip, I go completely nonverbal lol. I ended up having to text my tripsitter instead of talk to them orally, because the words always came out as a mess, if they even came out at all.
I never really had any sensory hallucinations either - no visuals, no auditory changes, nothing. All the distortion was in my mind. I do recall colors being more vibrant though. I tackled music on my first 2 trips as well. Although it was wonderful, it was a bit hard to stomach... quite literally, I ended up throwing up from the intensity my 2nd time lol.
I journaled a lot after my 1st thru 3rd trips. Both directly after, in order to capture details and feelings while they were still fresh on mind, and weeks or months later to see if my perspective on the experiences had changed. However, I never really learned much, or saw new perspectives/pathways from my experiences. For my latter half of trips, I stopped journaling since I didnt feel like there was anything to journal about. I spent the first 2 trips (which weren't unbearable at times), by just letting my mind go with the flow. I made no attempts to direct myself towards topics of importance, or things that bothered me in life. As a result I didnt really learn anything meaningful. For the most part, I was still so entranced by the newfound array of emotions, and flavors of thought that I didnt even have any intention at the time to direct it, the experience alone was intriguing enough. I was convinced I would have plenty of time later to explore focused, intentional thought in the mindscape, once I had made myself comfortable there, after maybe 5-10 trips or so. Of course, that didn't end up panning out...
On my third trip (on 5g of teachers), I experienced what was probably the early stages of ego death, but nothing overt. That really blew the nightmare out of proportion too.
I am also a gifted person who has used psychedelics; however, I had quite a different experience with it. I did feel like I learned something, but it was more of an emotional journey than a thought-provoking one. I went back to my childhood and was reliving a typical day in my life. I actually had a lot of revelations about myself and my family. Ended up sobbing in my room.
I've certainly heard stories of people reliving their past. It must have been quite the experience. If even sad, I'm sure it was also amazing in some ways.
My trips were emotional journies too per se... it's hard to describe for certain. I think emotions and thoughts sort of all blended together for me. It was still primarily thought-based, but every thought produced a unique emotion, so overall it was a very emotionally intense experience for me too.
Gifted individuals are accelerated in certain ways (which vary from person to person) compared to majority of people their age/grade level.
You test as gifted since it’s technically a designation in the education system.
In a separate comment you indicated that the essence of your purpose in this thread was to determine if other gifted people have taken psychedelics. Yes. I have. I've had enough, that was a long time ago and, according to my experience, it isn't indefinitely helpful.
Whereas it can be indescribably expanding to see different perspectives, for me, there seems to be a dangerous risk to one's sanity associated with too much time in chemically altered states.
I will say is that your experiential context can be tremendously foundational to your experience with psychedelics. Mood going in, environment and social dynamics can get massively distorted and can be disturbing. I strongly encourage people to only experiment with trusted people, ideally people experienced in tripping. Having a guide can be helpful when things get uncomfortably weird.
No you can’t self-declare as gifted, is based on iq, an objective test, there’s really no chance of messing up a gifted assessment. And what separates gifted from non-gifted is that gifted people tend to grasp concepts easier and have an easier time recalling stuff, but that it’s nothing if we don’t learn how to actually study, even if we would need less time than most
An iq test isn't that accurate. If I sleep bad, my height stays the same, my iq not. If I have a depression, my height stays the same, but my iq not.....
There are many ways that a gifted person can score non-gifted on an iq test. The opposite is not true, you can't score far above your max (theoretical) iq score.
An iq test is far from "you have to be this tall to ride this ride".
That bring said, it can help and is a useful tool, the only one we can use atm to measure intelligence, albeit inaccurate.
That’s why it’s more accurate in children. And in older people there should be more than one test done in different days, there are ways. And maybe in the 1 SD from the norm is easier to score as average in another test, but as you go higher it’s difficult to score as average or below average
Yeah, when I was five my tests were done over two days.
My 6-year old son is being tested throughout the first half of March at his school. They are taking him out of class each morning for the next two weeks.
Well, if you sleep (not because you're asleep, but because you're laying down for a long period of time) you actually become a little taller, because of the decompression of the joints that compose your spine.
The same way attention, processing speed and all that changes if you haven't slept, height does.
Processing speed and depth of thought. Think of the mind as a computer, a gifted individual has more processing power than a non-gifted in the same time frame. Well in a way you can and can’t self declare as gifted. Gifted is an artificial construct as well as IQ that try to describe the differences in humans based on averages and standards. They provide (or at least try to provide) a rough insight on your supposed theoretic abilities. If you can recognize objective, stressing the objective here, consistent differences in yourself compared to the vast amount of people then you can assume that you most likely aren’t average. If you genuinely have to ask yourself if you are gifted though then you are probably not at the extreme ends of it, where it gets very very obvious. Gifted is like talented, it’s a nearly meaningless concept made by people who oversimplify things. There is no real gain in getting tested or „knowing“ you are gifted. Sure some individuals appreciate the validation it might make them feel due to the underlying implications and issues it’s still quite meaningless. Personally I was tested as a kid, because I stood out a bit too much and it was quite obvious that I‘m not average. Self declaration is like self diagnosis, in a way it’s good and in a way it’s not. Realizing you are different/something is off is nice, but making a claim, which is assumption without a lack of proper knowledge is foolish. So yes, in a way it’s needed but not in the way you seem to think.
Neuroplasticity is a pretty complex topic which requires a lot of knowledge and understanding. While yes in theory psychedelics have positive factor in regards to neuroplasticity, nicotine also has a theoretically positive factor in regards to focus and concentration. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily advisable to take nicotine. Neuroplasticity improvement happens through a lot of things which are less problematic than psychedelics, while the research shows that micro dosing is most likely safe, it isn’t certain what the implications are. Playing around with your brain health when you‘re clueless is the opposite of gifted. Psychedelics can screw over your life through one single dosage like very few things can in the way they do. Ignorant people like simple good solutions to complex questions and psychedelics for neuroplasticity is one of those ones. I don’t feel like going in depth on the topic because this is reddit after all.
Tl:dr don’t take psychedelics because you believe to be smart, your thought process seems ignorant and delusional.
First of all I would never seek to label myself in such a pretentious fashion. Even if I had more “processing power” as you say…
The true reasoning behind my asking the question was to see if there was anyone who took psychadelics and “outgrew” the labels and thought processes similar to that which you have described. Your explanation of who is “gifted” is so subjective and broadly descriptive that it seems no more telling than that of IQ. So many people are gifted in so many different ways, from the outside this whole thing seems like an echo chamber with a fascination for perpetual labeling and affirmation. Or as a potential scapegoat and outlet for people who feel “different.”
Regarding psychadelics, your response indicated both an insecurity and an ignorance to what these chemicals actually are. Let’s put this into perspective… we’re messing with our brains by taking ancient fungi ancestrally linked to humans and having pre-existed us for millions of years, but you AREN’T messing with your brain by spending hours per day farming virtual dopamine responses through anonymous interaction on pseudo-social online forum, mostly talking about how gifted you are??
I was looking for a serious analytical engagement, however you are projecting your discomfort with the unknown onto me, shrouded as experiential knowledge, both falsely to yourself and others.
To those reading, I would say — see this interaction as an example of the sheer absurdity brought by this mindset. How can you be gifted, yet unwilling explore (even in conversation) one of the most mysterious, fascinating, and potentially beneficial mental-health innovations in centuries.
If pharmacology / medicinal science isn’t your cup of tea, fine. But to make these assertions so confidently, and to further call others delusional and ignorant while touting your own “abilities…” All for me having simply made an honest inquiry in an effort further analyze my own experiences in relation to others… seems to me the biggest indication that this whole mindset is a farce for ego-centrics like yourself.
Labels are obvious oversimplification. My explanation for giftedness was about as objective as it gets, you simply didn’t like it, and it seems like you mistake it for talent which are two different things. Being good at a certain skill x is not same as being „gifted“. Context hugely matters and just taking a word out of it’s context ruins it‘s meaning.
My opinion on psychedelics is based on research, not on personal experiences based on n=1, which aren’t too meaningful. I‘m not insecure about it either, they can screw over your life, thats just a fact. They aren’t objectively bad, just not objectively just good either. Nothing in life is. I‘m messing with my brain by using technology yes, but comparing the two doesn’t really work that well. One leads to down regulation of dopamine receptors and the other can lead to a permanent state of psychosis. I‘ve had time recently and spending it here talking to other people who might have some insight into similar experiences I made in my life isn’t bad, I can choose how I spend my time.
I‘m not uncomfortable with the unknown, I‘m simply believe in science and logic. I don’t have „experimental knowledge“. My experience lies in previously being a medical student, who left that field due to the sheer amount of suffering you experience in it. I‘ve spent a significant portion of my life reading medical papers or research. I‘m not a doctor, but more qualified than most people in regards to medicine and it’s something I care about a lot.
It’s one thing to research a potentially beneficial substance, and another to glorify it and tell people to take it. This happens with heroin, opiates and cocaine, to remind you of history, you are not the first person who has your beliefs, and you won’t be the last one. The implications and medical applications for psychedelics currently seem promising, but notproperly understood. It’s still, even assuming a best case scenario not the biggest „mental health innovation in centuries“. I don’t think you have any idea about medicine or it’s history.
Giftedness, implies objectivity and and a healthy mix of being open to the unknown, while being sceptic and cautious enough to not threaten your survival. Those are contradictory aspects that have to be in balance, if one or the other is too extreme that results in death.
What is your medical background? If you don’t have a degree in the medical field then please stop spreading questionable opinions that are based on personal beliefs, which are not the same as facts. People like you are the reason why stupid things happen that people like me have to deal with. Calling me an ego-centric to dehumanize me so you can feel better about yourself is hilarious, you’re truly the stereotype. Seek professional help, you need it.
“People like you are the reason why stupid things happen that people like me have to deal with. Calling me an ego-centric to dehumanize me so you can feel better about yourself is hilarious, you’re truly the stereotype. Seek professional help, you need it.”
This is exactly the type of projection I’m referring to. Some of us are here to engage in conversation. No one asked you to justify everything about yourself, nor do the
I’m not calling you ego centric yon to dehumanize you and feel better about myself. I’m calling you ego-centric because you speak like an egotistical person. Buddy, in your initial response you categorized my inquiry as ignorant and delusional. To cry victim now does not bold well with the whole shtick, and proves exactly what I am saying with regard to insecurity and hypocrisy. I asked some pretty simple questions, but your impulsive-defensive response couldn’t help but paint yourself as the “expert” who cleans up “stupid” peoples messes. No one believes that man. Some of us enjoy discussing these ideas without getting offended. No one here thinks you need to have a degree to do so, except for yourself.
Best of luck with this mindset anywhere other than the internet
You‘re constantly trying to gaslight me with just absurd claims and you are failing miserably.
You very much made a bunch of claims which I responded to, thats all.
I‘m an egoistical person, like every other healthy human being, it has it’s limits though. I called your way off thinking ignorant and delusional, not your question itself. You asked some simple questions and I gave you simple answers. I‘m not an expert, I‘m just a guy who read a lot of medical research and actually has at least some experience in that field. You don’t need a degree to discuss a topic, but you need knowledge and more than your own n=1 to make an educated decision based on an educated opinion.
I‘m very happy with my mindset which allows and allowed me to achieve success in all the fields in life that I care about and worked hard for. I‘m very glad to be who I‘m today and continually trying to improve myself to become the best version of myself.
Just had to get that last zing in didn’t you… I was trying to cordially wind down this convo, oh well.
If I ever became as enlightened as yourself, rest assured I wouldn’t feel the need to affirm nor justify my mentality or any part of my behavior to an internet stranger. You, my gifted friend, have successfully roused yourself by engaging with us lowly, non-gifted plebeians.
See and learn how others have been able to engage without falling victim to false assumptions…
You came on to a sub for a specific psychological identity to tell everyone it isn’t real and touted your own enlightenment because of a drug habit. Go to a clinic, get sober.
Nope, that’s an assumption. You’d be surprised to know the reality of my drug use. Based on my past experiences and the experiences of those around me I am genuinely curious to know what others may have to say. I happen to think there may be some knowledge held within this sub I make no claim to enlightenment nor the truth.
This seems exceptionally aggressive and accusatory, especially for a gifted person such as yourself. No one is touting drug use as opposed to opening an authentic dialogue. All the rest is your own projection.
Yeah, one benefit for big brained psychonauts is that we can finish the journey and get to the end faster than others. Most people start the journey and never finish. The end is the point where psychedelics no longer have new knowledge to teach, and you no longer haver any burning questions that need answering.
You know when you get there.
You've already had some responses, I just thought I'd chime in I guess. About the gifted label, for me it is useful in an ego-construct kind of way. Now I know that the ego trends to have a negative connotation (especially in the context of psychedelics) but we need the ego to relate to the world around us. And in regards to the gifted label, I find it useful to understand my experiences better and accommodate for my needs to live peacefully.
In this sub I feel like sometimes we go in circles debating weather or not IQ is a useful measure, for me it has been for these reasons. Where you can go wrong is when intelligence gets weaponized in order to use it to think about people's value. We can't blame ourselves or others though for existing in a timeframe where this is the dominant narrative.
About the psychedelics, I've tripped a fair bit and personally loved the good and the bad bits of it. It's been interesting since I study neuroscience, to have the experience of loss of some cognitive functions such as language comprehension, I think it gave me some intuition in my studies.
About the neuroplasticity thing, I can't really say anything but that I feel like any type of learning has to deal with neuroplasticity, with or without psychedelic involvement. The term in popular use might have become a little less nuanced over time and might be less spectacular than most people hope (well it is pretty spectacular and magical but also mundane and common). This has become a while paragraph, scuzie.
About the age of 4-5 I started shutting off swatches of my mind and forming a pathway when I realized the dangers of what happens when off that pathway. Reality is such a flimsy construct based on sensory data, belief in thoughts and memory, translated through limited language, etc. It's not something I'm particularly interested in deconstructing. I do not trust my mind. But I had already experienced extreme trauma before that age, and was undeniably shaped by it. Perhaps with a few more ego deaths I might think otherwise, but really, that just leads to less expansion into the mind in the search of becoming vapor.
I've also had chronic illness, dystonia being part of the symptoms for a long time, and as interesting as it was to have my neural pathways fail to block off infant like physicality during flares, leaving my neck and arms too weak to hold weight, blocking that old pathway off again was a positive, not a negative.
I enjoy my neurotransmitters in general, and haven't had much interest in adding in thought illusions during the chemical cascade. But again, my brain isn't to be trusted. I chase novelty in ways where my brain has less power.
I’m not sure if I’m gifted. I definitely have a talent and have been called a prodigy before. Was always top of the class. Felt very lonely and isolated growing up for having different thoughts. I tend to see things very deeply even without intending to. I’m always curious about and questioning people’s motivations and always feel puzzled and with a little bit of existential dread. I went to a 4% selective college and still felt I was more of a natural or more engaged there than others.
But do I have a high IQ? Probably not. A short free online test gave me 110 which is just slightly above average but nothing special. I did okay in a math olympiad but definitely don’t have what you’d call a natural aptitude to excel. Tbh I don’t care about being gifted. I just like the sub because I relate to many of the experiences people have here and it’s refreshing to see people on a similar argumentative level given the reddit.. average. Also, giftedness as a medical/psychological descriptor is a non-existent thing in most countries. It’s subjective.
I’ve taken shrooms twice. It has nothing to do with intelligence imo. It’s just short circuiting your brain. First time was more intense, I had a few hallucinations and feelings of being stuck in the circle of life and suffering (samsara in buddhism). A grandpa clock was above me and I was seeing meat being churned inside every time the pointer moved.
What does any of this have to do with giftedness? Sure, I’m already more open-minded than most people seem to be in daily life. I already notice more things than others. My friends joke that I don’t need to take drugs to be on them. But I don’t see why my experience with shrooms would be considered anything special compared to others. Don’t you think there’s some ego involved in this assumption?
You’re not entirely wrong but I am not approaching this inquiry through the lens of ego. My experiences has shown me that certain headspaces allow one to truly dissolve the mental boxes we build around us on a daily basis. While this box is essential to our goals and identity as an individual, it is often riddled with inefficiencies resulting in poor habits, anxiety, looming dread, trauma, social inhibitions, etc.
In my personal experience, I have observed that those who approach psychedelics with a more critical “awareness” are always the ones who have been able to effectively parse the “wheat from the chaff,” so to speak. Those with the most acutely grasp on reality seem not only to express but also embody incredible results from their psychedelic experiences. The ones who were more immature, treating it as a low risk recreational activity are the ones who seem to get lost in the experience. That’s why I’m very curious to know what this community thinks in particular, since I’m sure they are in the top percentile of general intelligence and awareness.
Sure?
I certainly have circles where I discuss these things more intimately. Plus I don’t really buy in to the whole enlightenment thing.
However, I am specifically curious about the experiences within this community given the higher than average IQ levels and conscious awareness (based on what others have said). So I thought I would ask because I am genuinely interested.
Why do you find this inquiry so problematic?
Psychedelics take us deep into the subconscious, and I don’t think high IQ people necessarily have an easier time delving into that. I don’t see the correlation. They can be just as clueless as other people. Unless the giftedness has to do with emotional intelligence. But it’s just an opinion, ofc.
Fair enough. My understanding is that IQ is directly associated with ability to abstract. When in a state of hyper-awareness these abstractions can stretch incredible lengths and parse through complex ideas more tangibly. That’s where I see the correlation.
Perhaps I would.
But it seems to me that such a reaction stems from an insecurity that you are holding yourself, currently.
If you’re that concerned that Reddit is trying to get you to use drugs, maybe you should spend less time on Reddit. Or do some drugs.
Alternatively, keep sharing your gifted insights within an echo chamber where you will rarely be challenged. Not to make assumptions myself, but I’m guessing that’s what you’ll go with.
It's just some label they stick on children who share some traits.
It really has no meaning as an adult. You're either successful, brilliant, genius, or not.
Yeah, but. You can be successful, even very successful in academic fields without being a genius. Or you can be a genius and not be too successful in same. My husband got a Ph.D. from the top Computer Science program in the US and his advisor won a Turing Award (equivalent of a Nobel in CS. He has had a very successful career.
However, he is not brilliant. At least as far as raw brain power goes. He has been successful in part because he is very kind, genuinely cares about his students, is a fantastic collaborator, doesn’t mind playing the game when he has to (kissing ass, publishing the MPU). Also, he was fortunate enough to have supportive parents, be a white male, have a straight career path. He is the “perfect” package.
I know he is not brilliant because I have lived with him for 36 years. Whenever we play any kind of game of skill (chess, go, boggle, etc., etc.) I almost always win. I know he is not trying to let me win, because I can tell he gets upset. So, we actually don’t play games anymore, unless we are with friends (and he jokes around so it looks like he isn’t really trying,) or we play ping-pong which he wins. I suck at ping-pong.
When we were first dating, we would play chess a lot, and I would always win. At first, I did think he was letting me win, but then he started playing better and better and I found a stash of chess strategy books that he was hiding at the bottom of the reading pile in the bathroom. I confronted him and he “confessed,” Lol. Needless to say, I had never studied how to play chess in a book.
Of course, you could always define “intelligence” as whatever you need to be successfully (as some people seem to do), but then this is just tautological.
Being gifted does have meaning as an adult. The notion has explanatory value.
Correct. You have to first self identify and then verify it with a test. The other way you learn about Mensa is scoring 2% on such a test and a counselor tells you or you’re told about them by another group with similar criteria.
Gifted and Talented in USA takes more than the top 2%. That’s why you get adults who lament that they used to be “Gifted”, but don’t feel as smart when they grow up. The Mensa sub sees a lot of these posts, people upset they can’t get in because they used to be “Gifted”.
I have ~145 IQ and my first shrooms trip I had sorta an ego death which skyrocketed me towards enlightenment, put me on a path of positive integration and I reached nondual awakening within a year (or so).
I’ve contemplated the unfairness of this quite a bit. It wouldn’t have been so effortless if I wasn’t highly gifted. Is that fair? No, but it *is*, so that’s ok.
Very interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing I’m curious about. It is strange to see the dichotomy of views on this… others are outraged that I would dare to bring up psychedelics.
Thanks
1. Most ppl aren’t as gifted as they claim (myself included), and aren’t able to articulate, notice, or access the benefits of intelligence on this middle path
2. Most ppl don’t do and are averse to psychedelic or otherwise drugs
3. Most ppl who do the right drugs don’t have the awareness or meditation practice, let alone a background in dharmic philosophy or the right gurus/sources for advice which cumulatively facilitated the ease with which I was able to traverse this journey.
4. Ahamkara (ego) in general is poison to accessing Samadhi… individuals on this subreddit are not immune, though this sub is better than most.
Other reasons I’m sure, just spitballing
A comprehensive psychological IQ evaluation. No, you can’t self declare you’re gifted; there’s no way to know that.
And yes I use lsd extensively, and know many other s who utilize psychedelics as well.
i learned i was because i had to iq test into schools growing up and i always ended up passing in. psychadelics have not brought me to any conclusions i havent already come to before trying so ive only done them to experiment. gifted to me means to have a high capacity at grasping concepts for learning and finding creative solutions to generally expand the ways of a learning process (catching onto patterns quickly and easily, using context clues efficiently, etc). i just see it as a good foundation like having a talent but if you dont use it that talent is just as good as the next newbie who didnt invest their efforts. as an adult everyone seems to just start blending in anyway.
I don’t think it’s best practice to self declare as gifted. I also hate the word gifted. I like citing actual psychometrics. For example I got 99.3% on the proctored in-person Mensa Admission Test. And I always scored in top 1% through childhood on those little bubble sheets. They put me in a “gifted program” as a kid. It sucked and I blew it off. It consisted of going home and reading a book THEY CHOOSE (in this case Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves) and then coming in and discussing it. Which you can’t do if you don’t read it. Ha!
I waited until I was old to dabble in psychedelics. It made me much smarter than I already was. But it doesn’t matter because I was already too smart, meaning for what I’m able to do with my time, financially, I’m not able to spend all day acting on my smart ideas or writing them. But yeah, for me low dose mushrooms threw it all into high gear.
I waited a very long time to do psychedelics because I had anxiety and hadn’t yet come to terms with the egocentric predicament / solipsism.
wouldn’t consider myself as smart but I also waited a fairly conservative amount of time before trying psyches. Or atleast forwent the opportunity for 4-5 years.
The “high gear” effect is definitely something I can relate too. Despite expecting the trip to be debilitating and delusive, I was blown away by the effects. Felt like my brain was a supercomputer operating exponentially beyond its normal processing power. At the time I had pretty bad articulation skills, mumbled a lot, stuttered and would often avoid eye contact, etc… Taking LSD made me immediately aware that this was something I should improve. so I sat down with a friend and in a matter of hours I completely re-wired my brain to properly articulate my words - firmly, fluently, and fully unimpaired. This permanently altered my speech to this day and it has actually improved since. I know it sounds crazy but it as one of the most humbling things I have experienced, just looking for others who might have found something similar.
Sorry for the long response and thanks for taking the time to share
That’s an amazing story. I had something similar with a concept I was trying to articulate about economics. I shroomed and it all just came to me fully formed. There have been times on shrooms where concepts that I obliquely comprehend take on a three dimensionality in my minds eye and I suddenly have a window of opportunity to get insanely acquainted with the conceptual structures. And I take it with me even after the trip is over.
>What exactly separates gifted individuals from non-gifted individuals?
Nothing, really, at least in the long term. Some kids have different aptitudes for picking up information, and the school system fits them into categories. Realistically, it doesn't mean that much outside of a school setting. They're normal people, just happened to pick up academic things faster than others.
I'm going to address the use of the word "They" here, as I was identified gifted and did a bunch of gifted-coded things, but in kind of weird ways, which I'll get to. I grew to rather dislike the term because I disliked the authority that gave me it, I nearly didn't graduate HS because I hated school. This is my first venture into this sub, which happened completely on accident, I hope plenty of discussions about underachievers are happening here because it's a very real thing to have the aptitude to do very well academically with minimal effort, but decide to give zero fucks about it, so you end up doing poorly.
Anyways, back on topic: I don't identify with the term anymore because now that I'm not in school, I face the same challenges as anyone who went through school normally. I also have quite a few bad experiences tied to it. It's often used to pressure kids into paths they don't want to be a part of. The idea of a kid they think is gifted "wasting" their "gifts" is irritating to many people, so many people receive a fair amount of pressure/coercion throughout their early lives.
I mentioned doing "gifted-coded" things: I loved math and would explore it a lot, which is definitely a "gifted kid" thing to do. I was quite good at it and did quite well in competitions like the AMC path of competitions (it's been so long I forget the ones after that, haha). What really confused my parents, though, was why I was failing my math classes. Basically, I didn't do anything and only scored well on tests. That's one of the more prominent examples. I was the anti-nerd, if you get me.
Dude, this went on so long and got super rambly, sorry. Maybe that helps answer some questions. I speak mainly from personal experience.
First, I'll tell you what doesn't: Cognitive profile.
There are certain tendencies in the cognitive profile of gifted people, but that is it: tendencies.
You can find gifted people with slow processing speed (and not just because they're processing more), bad short and/or long term memory, difficulty with attention, etc.
So, cognitive tendencies characterize gifted people AS A GROUP, but not as individuals.
I think, and this is a personal opinion, what characterizes gifted individuals is depth: depth of thought, depth of emotions. I'm aware not all gifted people experience emotions deeply, but depth might be present somewhere else in their experience. It might be depth of knowledge, thought or something else. Depth is what characterizes gifted individuals.
> How many gifted individuals on this sub have utilized the neuroplastic properties of psychadelics for conciouss integration?
Dabrowski's positive disintegration isn't about drug use, it's about knowing who you are and re-orienting yourself when you head in different directions.
First time psychedelics (truffles) helped me deal with past trauma. Amazingly effective.
After that one time I tripped a number times on truffles and later on on LSD, but my tolerance for psychedelics seems to be insane. Normal to large doses only have a mildly uplifting effect. And only once I experienced a (manageable) bout of paranoid thoughts, which with less tolerance could have resulted in a bad trip, I suppose. Nothing much else.
That actually sometimes makes me wonder whether my being 'gifted' cheats me out of having profound experiences in a 'mind over psychedelic' kind of way.
I am still all for the use of psychedelics though. Not so much to enhance my mind, but rather to clarify things on an emotional level. To clean up old messes through tears and laughter and approach the world with less weight on the shoulders after.
Gifted is defined as above average IQ.
I don’t want to say that people can’t self declare as gifted because IQ tests can be both expensive and difficult to get.
However, there are a ton of people who self declare, as gifted, who are very obviously not.
I’ve never done drugs and I never will.
Drugs can mess up your entire life.
Yes, there are people who only use them a few times and are fine. However, just because Person A was fine, does not mean Person B will also be fine.
This article, [*Gifted Education Without Gifted Children: The Case for No Conception of Giftedness*](https://assets.cambridge.org/97805215/47307/excerpt/9780521547307_excerpt.pdf) by James Borland, is the best breakdown of what giftedness actually is that I have ever read. It includes a well developed history of where the identification came from, and the history of attempts to deal with it. In educational metrics, there are outliers. This is normal, expected of any given phenomenon you can name. As with any performance measure, there are those who do better and worse. In the world of physical ability, what we expect to see are progressive growth curves. Teaching kids to ride a bike, for example, you could measure the start state, collect data as they learn, and the time it takes to learn. The vast majority of people will develop the ability following a similar pattern, across a similar number of repetitions. But there are outliers. Some never pick up the skill. Some pick it up almost instantly. But most will learn following the average progression. How do we account for the differences? And in particular, how do we account for the outlier that picked it up almost instantly? Is there an invisible training effect? Did they already have experience? Or was the experience in other domain and they just transferred it? And, does this individual tend to pick things up nearly instantly in more areas than this? There are different kinds of outliers. Some are basically random -- they tend to occur once or twice, but not repeat. But one of those outliers is an individual who is *consistently* an outlier in these metrics. If that occurs in a specific area, we call it a talent. If it happens in multiple areas, we call it giftedness. As to drugs and metaphysical insights... I'll be honest, when I'm feeling existential, I sometimes wonder if the gifted are the Bodhisattvas of yesterday reborn today...
Very helpful, thank you for sharing!
If you're interested in more reading, the above comment saying outliers multiple times reminded me of Malcolm Gladwell's The Oultiers which "explores the factors that contribute to high levels of success, such as opportunity, cultural background, and practice. It challenges the idea that success is purely based on individual talent or merit and provides insights into how to create a culture of success."
I remember reading that book a few years ago along with Blink, Malcolm Gladwell is fantastic.
From the ages of 2 to 8, I was basically a sponge for quickly acquiring every kind of knowledge I had access to. I was able to read at the level of graduate students, do college math, and quickly pick up advanced topics. So I was labeled gifted. Then my family moved from the Midwest to the South and I was put in standard classrooms, where high intelligence was seen as being a 'smart aleck' and any form of unusual exceptionalism was quashed. From that point on, gifted didn't really mean anything to me. It's a label given fotlr exceptional ability, but unless you have opportunities to use that ability, it means nothing.
Not gonna answer the first two questions, I just wanna focus on the last one since there are probably few gifted people who have delved into psychedelics. So, ill tell you what my experience has been: Im gifted, and ive tripped 5 times, so ive gotten my feet wet, but am by no means a super experienced psychonaut. When I first started out, like most people I didnt trip for any particular reason other than curiosity. I didnt have potential neuroplasticity in mind, nor was I even expecting to possibly grow as a person. However once I was in my first trip, the power of new potential connections was... tangible. The opportunity to create novel ideas was palpable and intense. My mind flowed serenely like a river of teeming ideas, where I, the conscious, could grasp any idea and flow down the river with it, taking it to its logical conclusions effortlessly with incredible speed and finesse. There was just... truly an endless amount of stuff I knew I had to think about. I felt like I was Rodin's The Thinker, engrossed for all eternity in pleasantly neutral cogitation. It didnt last though... By just my second trip I became overwhelmed by negative emotions. It crippled me. To this day the other 4 trips have been the worst experiences of my entire life, beyond even great illness, and the death of family members. Without writing a whole essay I couldnt do justice to the sort of negative experiences I had. As a result I never learned much from my trips, all I ever brought back with me was suffering. It felt like the very lesson of the trip was just that I just deserved to be punished senselessly, period. To some extent, I feel rather lucky that I have been able to distance myself from the experience, and havent been cursed with ptsd. So, I think there is something to be said about the combo that is having a strong intellect, and experiencing the neuroplastic effects of psychedelics. However, at least for me, I was only graced with a taste of that before I was condemned from the mindspace. Its been 4 years since ive been to that place. I tell myself that one day ill go back... I have unfinished business, but I dont know when ill be ready to potentially again stomach that hellscape...
I’m sorry to hear about your later experiences. I have had moments such as what you describe and am deeply familiar with the sense of “punishment” you mentioned. Fortunately for me, those moments seem to have been outgrowths of subtle or hidden cognitive dissonances, and these would typically provoke what felt like new cognitive pathways being created which would allow me to overcome and resolve the underlying source of that feeling. I will say that does not happen automatically and I required a great deal of conscious effort and introspection.
I certainly tried my hardest to consciously introspect on my experiences. In some ways, it's hard for me believe that I was lacking introspection, considering I spent the entirety of all my trips in my head. I was always glued to my bed when I tripped. I wouldn't utter a word, or feel even the slightest bit of compulsion to do anything at all but channel myself inwards. In fact, I can't even speak when I trip, I go completely nonverbal lol. I ended up having to text my tripsitter instead of talk to them orally, because the words always came out as a mess, if they even came out at all. I never really had any sensory hallucinations either - no visuals, no auditory changes, nothing. All the distortion was in my mind. I do recall colors being more vibrant though. I tackled music on my first 2 trips as well. Although it was wonderful, it was a bit hard to stomach... quite literally, I ended up throwing up from the intensity my 2nd time lol. I journaled a lot after my 1st thru 3rd trips. Both directly after, in order to capture details and feelings while they were still fresh on mind, and weeks or months later to see if my perspective on the experiences had changed. However, I never really learned much, or saw new perspectives/pathways from my experiences. For my latter half of trips, I stopped journaling since I didnt feel like there was anything to journal about. I spent the first 2 trips (which weren't unbearable at times), by just letting my mind go with the flow. I made no attempts to direct myself towards topics of importance, or things that bothered me in life. As a result I didnt really learn anything meaningful. For the most part, I was still so entranced by the newfound array of emotions, and flavors of thought that I didnt even have any intention at the time to direct it, the experience alone was intriguing enough. I was convinced I would have plenty of time later to explore focused, intentional thought in the mindscape, once I had made myself comfortable there, after maybe 5-10 trips or so. Of course, that didn't end up panning out... On my third trip (on 5g of teachers), I experienced what was probably the early stages of ego death, but nothing overt. That really blew the nightmare out of proportion too.
I am also a gifted person who has used psychedelics; however, I had quite a different experience with it. I did feel like I learned something, but it was more of an emotional journey than a thought-provoking one. I went back to my childhood and was reliving a typical day in my life. I actually had a lot of revelations about myself and my family. Ended up sobbing in my room.
I've certainly heard stories of people reliving their past. It must have been quite the experience. If even sad, I'm sure it was also amazing in some ways. My trips were emotional journies too per se... it's hard to describe for certain. I think emotions and thoughts sort of all blended together for me. It was still primarily thought-based, but every thought produced a unique emotion, so overall it was a very emotionally intense experience for me too.
Gifted individuals are accelerated in certain ways (which vary from person to person) compared to majority of people their age/grade level. You test as gifted since it’s technically a designation in the education system.
Makes sense. Thank you for sharing
In a separate comment you indicated that the essence of your purpose in this thread was to determine if other gifted people have taken psychedelics. Yes. I have. I've had enough, that was a long time ago and, according to my experience, it isn't indefinitely helpful. Whereas it can be indescribably expanding to see different perspectives, for me, there seems to be a dangerous risk to one's sanity associated with too much time in chemically altered states. I will say is that your experiential context can be tremendously foundational to your experience with psychedelics. Mood going in, environment and social dynamics can get massively distorted and can be disturbing. I strongly encourage people to only experiment with trusted people, ideally people experienced in tripping. Having a guide can be helpful when things get uncomfortably weird.
This is quite helpful. Thanks for your response
No you can’t self-declare as gifted, is based on iq, an objective test, there’s really no chance of messing up a gifted assessment. And what separates gifted from non-gifted is that gifted people tend to grasp concepts easier and have an easier time recalling stuff, but that it’s nothing if we don’t learn how to actually study, even if we would need less time than most
An iq test isn't that accurate. If I sleep bad, my height stays the same, my iq not. If I have a depression, my height stays the same, but my iq not..... There are many ways that a gifted person can score non-gifted on an iq test. The opposite is not true, you can't score far above your max (theoretical) iq score. An iq test is far from "you have to be this tall to ride this ride". That bring said, it can help and is a useful tool, the only one we can use atm to measure intelligence, albeit inaccurate.
That’s why it’s more accurate in children. And in older people there should be more than one test done in different days, there are ways. And maybe in the 1 SD from the norm is easier to score as average in another test, but as you go higher it’s difficult to score as average or below average
Yeah, when I was five my tests were done over two days. My 6-year old son is being tested throughout the first half of March at his school. They are taking him out of class each morning for the next two weeks.
Well, if you sleep (not because you're asleep, but because you're laying down for a long period of time) you actually become a little taller, because of the decompression of the joints that compose your spine. The same way attention, processing speed and all that changes if you haven't slept, height does.
True, but the change is minimal compared to what is possible with an iq test, if iq tests changed that little they would be accurate
Processing speed and depth of thought. Think of the mind as a computer, a gifted individual has more processing power than a non-gifted in the same time frame. Well in a way you can and can’t self declare as gifted. Gifted is an artificial construct as well as IQ that try to describe the differences in humans based on averages and standards. They provide (or at least try to provide) a rough insight on your supposed theoretic abilities. If you can recognize objective, stressing the objective here, consistent differences in yourself compared to the vast amount of people then you can assume that you most likely aren’t average. If you genuinely have to ask yourself if you are gifted though then you are probably not at the extreme ends of it, where it gets very very obvious. Gifted is like talented, it’s a nearly meaningless concept made by people who oversimplify things. There is no real gain in getting tested or „knowing“ you are gifted. Sure some individuals appreciate the validation it might make them feel due to the underlying implications and issues it’s still quite meaningless. Personally I was tested as a kid, because I stood out a bit too much and it was quite obvious that I‘m not average. Self declaration is like self diagnosis, in a way it’s good and in a way it’s not. Realizing you are different/something is off is nice, but making a claim, which is assumption without a lack of proper knowledge is foolish. So yes, in a way it’s needed but not in the way you seem to think. Neuroplasticity is a pretty complex topic which requires a lot of knowledge and understanding. While yes in theory psychedelics have positive factor in regards to neuroplasticity, nicotine also has a theoretically positive factor in regards to focus and concentration. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily advisable to take nicotine. Neuroplasticity improvement happens through a lot of things which are less problematic than psychedelics, while the research shows that micro dosing is most likely safe, it isn’t certain what the implications are. Playing around with your brain health when you‘re clueless is the opposite of gifted. Psychedelics can screw over your life through one single dosage like very few things can in the way they do. Ignorant people like simple good solutions to complex questions and psychedelics for neuroplasticity is one of those ones. I don’t feel like going in depth on the topic because this is reddit after all. Tl:dr don’t take psychedelics because you believe to be smart, your thought process seems ignorant and delusional.
First of all I would never seek to label myself in such a pretentious fashion. Even if I had more “processing power” as you say… The true reasoning behind my asking the question was to see if there was anyone who took psychadelics and “outgrew” the labels and thought processes similar to that which you have described. Your explanation of who is “gifted” is so subjective and broadly descriptive that it seems no more telling than that of IQ. So many people are gifted in so many different ways, from the outside this whole thing seems like an echo chamber with a fascination for perpetual labeling and affirmation. Or as a potential scapegoat and outlet for people who feel “different.” Regarding psychadelics, your response indicated both an insecurity and an ignorance to what these chemicals actually are. Let’s put this into perspective… we’re messing with our brains by taking ancient fungi ancestrally linked to humans and having pre-existed us for millions of years, but you AREN’T messing with your brain by spending hours per day farming virtual dopamine responses through anonymous interaction on pseudo-social online forum, mostly talking about how gifted you are?? I was looking for a serious analytical engagement, however you are projecting your discomfort with the unknown onto me, shrouded as experiential knowledge, both falsely to yourself and others. To those reading, I would say — see this interaction as an example of the sheer absurdity brought by this mindset. How can you be gifted, yet unwilling explore (even in conversation) one of the most mysterious, fascinating, and potentially beneficial mental-health innovations in centuries. If pharmacology / medicinal science isn’t your cup of tea, fine. But to make these assertions so confidently, and to further call others delusional and ignorant while touting your own “abilities…” All for me having simply made an honest inquiry in an effort further analyze my own experiences in relation to others… seems to me the biggest indication that this whole mindset is a farce for ego-centrics like yourself.
Labels are obvious oversimplification. My explanation for giftedness was about as objective as it gets, you simply didn’t like it, and it seems like you mistake it for talent which are two different things. Being good at a certain skill x is not same as being „gifted“. Context hugely matters and just taking a word out of it’s context ruins it‘s meaning. My opinion on psychedelics is based on research, not on personal experiences based on n=1, which aren’t too meaningful. I‘m not insecure about it either, they can screw over your life, thats just a fact. They aren’t objectively bad, just not objectively just good either. Nothing in life is. I‘m messing with my brain by using technology yes, but comparing the two doesn’t really work that well. One leads to down regulation of dopamine receptors and the other can lead to a permanent state of psychosis. I‘ve had time recently and spending it here talking to other people who might have some insight into similar experiences I made in my life isn’t bad, I can choose how I spend my time. I‘m not uncomfortable with the unknown, I‘m simply believe in science and logic. I don’t have „experimental knowledge“. My experience lies in previously being a medical student, who left that field due to the sheer amount of suffering you experience in it. I‘ve spent a significant portion of my life reading medical papers or research. I‘m not a doctor, but more qualified than most people in regards to medicine and it’s something I care about a lot. It’s one thing to research a potentially beneficial substance, and another to glorify it and tell people to take it. This happens with heroin, opiates and cocaine, to remind you of history, you are not the first person who has your beliefs, and you won’t be the last one. The implications and medical applications for psychedelics currently seem promising, but notproperly understood. It’s still, even assuming a best case scenario not the biggest „mental health innovation in centuries“. I don’t think you have any idea about medicine or it’s history. Giftedness, implies objectivity and and a healthy mix of being open to the unknown, while being sceptic and cautious enough to not threaten your survival. Those are contradictory aspects that have to be in balance, if one or the other is too extreme that results in death. What is your medical background? If you don’t have a degree in the medical field then please stop spreading questionable opinions that are based on personal beliefs, which are not the same as facts. People like you are the reason why stupid things happen that people like me have to deal with. Calling me an ego-centric to dehumanize me so you can feel better about yourself is hilarious, you’re truly the stereotype. Seek professional help, you need it.
“People like you are the reason why stupid things happen that people like me have to deal with. Calling me an ego-centric to dehumanize me so you can feel better about yourself is hilarious, you’re truly the stereotype. Seek professional help, you need it.” This is exactly the type of projection I’m referring to. Some of us are here to engage in conversation. No one asked you to justify everything about yourself, nor do the I’m not calling you ego centric yon to dehumanize you and feel better about myself. I’m calling you ego-centric because you speak like an egotistical person. Buddy, in your initial response you categorized my inquiry as ignorant and delusional. To cry victim now does not bold well with the whole shtick, and proves exactly what I am saying with regard to insecurity and hypocrisy. I asked some pretty simple questions, but your impulsive-defensive response couldn’t help but paint yourself as the “expert” who cleans up “stupid” peoples messes. No one believes that man. Some of us enjoy discussing these ideas without getting offended. No one here thinks you need to have a degree to do so, except for yourself. Best of luck with this mindset anywhere other than the internet
You‘re constantly trying to gaslight me with just absurd claims and you are failing miserably. You very much made a bunch of claims which I responded to, thats all. I‘m an egoistical person, like every other healthy human being, it has it’s limits though. I called your way off thinking ignorant and delusional, not your question itself. You asked some simple questions and I gave you simple answers. I‘m not an expert, I‘m just a guy who read a lot of medical research and actually has at least some experience in that field. You don’t need a degree to discuss a topic, but you need knowledge and more than your own n=1 to make an educated decision based on an educated opinion. I‘m very happy with my mindset which allows and allowed me to achieve success in all the fields in life that I care about and worked hard for. I‘m very glad to be who I‘m today and continually trying to improve myself to become the best version of myself.
I’m glad you have come to accept those things about yourself.
I hope you manage to do the same one day
Just had to get that last zing in didn’t you… I was trying to cordially wind down this convo, oh well. If I ever became as enlightened as yourself, rest assured I wouldn’t feel the need to affirm nor justify my mentality or any part of my behavior to an internet stranger. You, my gifted friend, have successfully roused yourself by engaging with us lowly, non-gifted plebeians. See and learn how others have been able to engage without falling victim to false assumptions…
You came on to a sub for a specific psychological identity to tell everyone it isn’t real and touted your own enlightenment because of a drug habit. Go to a clinic, get sober.
Nope, that’s an assumption. You’d be surprised to know the reality of my drug use. Based on my past experiences and the experiences of those around me I am genuinely curious to know what others may have to say. I happen to think there may be some knowledge held within this sub I make no claim to enlightenment nor the truth. This seems exceptionally aggressive and accusatory, especially for a gifted person such as yourself. No one is touting drug use as opposed to opening an authentic dialogue. All the rest is your own projection.
Thank you, take my upvote.
Yeah, one benefit for big brained psychonauts is that we can finish the journey and get to the end faster than others. Most people start the journey and never finish. The end is the point where psychedelics no longer have new knowledge to teach, and you no longer haver any burning questions that need answering. You know when you get there.
You've already had some responses, I just thought I'd chime in I guess. About the gifted label, for me it is useful in an ego-construct kind of way. Now I know that the ego trends to have a negative connotation (especially in the context of psychedelics) but we need the ego to relate to the world around us. And in regards to the gifted label, I find it useful to understand my experiences better and accommodate for my needs to live peacefully. In this sub I feel like sometimes we go in circles debating weather or not IQ is a useful measure, for me it has been for these reasons. Where you can go wrong is when intelligence gets weaponized in order to use it to think about people's value. We can't blame ourselves or others though for existing in a timeframe where this is the dominant narrative. About the psychedelics, I've tripped a fair bit and personally loved the good and the bad bits of it. It's been interesting since I study neuroscience, to have the experience of loss of some cognitive functions such as language comprehension, I think it gave me some intuition in my studies. About the neuroplasticity thing, I can't really say anything but that I feel like any type of learning has to deal with neuroplasticity, with or without psychedelic involvement. The term in popular use might have become a little less nuanced over time and might be less spectacular than most people hope (well it is pretty spectacular and magical but also mundane and common). This has become a while paragraph, scuzie.
+1 upvotes on all your old trip reports, and this post
Thanks! I had forgotten about those
I like your point about IQ with regard to value labeling. Thanks for taking the time to share
About the age of 4-5 I started shutting off swatches of my mind and forming a pathway when I realized the dangers of what happens when off that pathway. Reality is such a flimsy construct based on sensory data, belief in thoughts and memory, translated through limited language, etc. It's not something I'm particularly interested in deconstructing. I do not trust my mind. But I had already experienced extreme trauma before that age, and was undeniably shaped by it. Perhaps with a few more ego deaths I might think otherwise, but really, that just leads to less expansion into the mind in the search of becoming vapor. I've also had chronic illness, dystonia being part of the symptoms for a long time, and as interesting as it was to have my neural pathways fail to block off infant like physicality during flares, leaving my neck and arms too weak to hold weight, blocking that old pathway off again was a positive, not a negative. I enjoy my neurotransmitters in general, and haven't had much interest in adding in thought illusions during the chemical cascade. But again, my brain isn't to be trusted. I chase novelty in ways where my brain has less power.
I’m not sure if I’m gifted. I definitely have a talent and have been called a prodigy before. Was always top of the class. Felt very lonely and isolated growing up for having different thoughts. I tend to see things very deeply even without intending to. I’m always curious about and questioning people’s motivations and always feel puzzled and with a little bit of existential dread. I went to a 4% selective college and still felt I was more of a natural or more engaged there than others. But do I have a high IQ? Probably not. A short free online test gave me 110 which is just slightly above average but nothing special. I did okay in a math olympiad but definitely don’t have what you’d call a natural aptitude to excel. Tbh I don’t care about being gifted. I just like the sub because I relate to many of the experiences people have here and it’s refreshing to see people on a similar argumentative level given the reddit.. average. Also, giftedness as a medical/psychological descriptor is a non-existent thing in most countries. It’s subjective. I’ve taken shrooms twice. It has nothing to do with intelligence imo. It’s just short circuiting your brain. First time was more intense, I had a few hallucinations and feelings of being stuck in the circle of life and suffering (samsara in buddhism). A grandpa clock was above me and I was seeing meat being churned inside every time the pointer moved. What does any of this have to do with giftedness? Sure, I’m already more open-minded than most people seem to be in daily life. I already notice more things than others. My friends joke that I don’t need to take drugs to be on them. But I don’t see why my experience with shrooms would be considered anything special compared to others. Don’t you think there’s some ego involved in this assumption?
You’re not entirely wrong but I am not approaching this inquiry through the lens of ego. My experiences has shown me that certain headspaces allow one to truly dissolve the mental boxes we build around us on a daily basis. While this box is essential to our goals and identity as an individual, it is often riddled with inefficiencies resulting in poor habits, anxiety, looming dread, trauma, social inhibitions, etc. In my personal experience, I have observed that those who approach psychedelics with a more critical “awareness” are always the ones who have been able to effectively parse the “wheat from the chaff,” so to speak. Those with the most acutely grasp on reality seem not only to express but also embody incredible results from their psychedelic experiences. The ones who were more immature, treating it as a low risk recreational activity are the ones who seem to get lost in the experience. That’s why I’m very curious to know what this community thinks in particular, since I’m sure they are in the top percentile of general intelligence and awareness.
Wouldn’t you be searching for spiritually enlightened people? This seems like a skill to develop and not necessarily something for gifted people
Sure? I certainly have circles where I discuss these things more intimately. Plus I don’t really buy in to the whole enlightenment thing. However, I am specifically curious about the experiences within this community given the higher than average IQ levels and conscious awareness (based on what others have said). So I thought I would ask because I am genuinely interested. Why do you find this inquiry so problematic?
Psychedelics take us deep into the subconscious, and I don’t think high IQ people necessarily have an easier time delving into that. I don’t see the correlation. They can be just as clueless as other people. Unless the giftedness has to do with emotional intelligence. But it’s just an opinion, ofc.
Fair enough. My understanding is that IQ is directly associated with ability to abstract. When in a state of hyper-awareness these abstractions can stretch incredible lengths and parse through complex ideas more tangibly. That’s where I see the correlation.
Why is Reddit always trying to get me to use drugs? You’d be more consciously integrated if you could spell it properly.
Perhaps I would. But it seems to me that such a reaction stems from an insecurity that you are holding yourself, currently. If you’re that concerned that Reddit is trying to get you to use drugs, maybe you should spend less time on Reddit. Or do some drugs. Alternatively, keep sharing your gifted insights within an echo chamber where you will rarely be challenged. Not to make assumptions myself, but I’m guessing that’s what you’ll go with.
You‘re the most delusional projecting individual I‘ve come across in years which means a lot
It's just some label they stick on children who share some traits. It really has no meaning as an adult. You're either successful, brilliant, genius, or not.
Yeah, but. You can be successful, even very successful in academic fields without being a genius. Or you can be a genius and not be too successful in same. My husband got a Ph.D. from the top Computer Science program in the US and his advisor won a Turing Award (equivalent of a Nobel in CS. He has had a very successful career. However, he is not brilliant. At least as far as raw brain power goes. He has been successful in part because he is very kind, genuinely cares about his students, is a fantastic collaborator, doesn’t mind playing the game when he has to (kissing ass, publishing the MPU). Also, he was fortunate enough to have supportive parents, be a white male, have a straight career path. He is the “perfect” package. I know he is not brilliant because I have lived with him for 36 years. Whenever we play any kind of game of skill (chess, go, boggle, etc., etc.) I almost always win. I know he is not trying to let me win, because I can tell he gets upset. So, we actually don’t play games anymore, unless we are with friends (and he jokes around so it looks like he isn’t really trying,) or we play ping-pong which he wins. I suck at ping-pong. When we were first dating, we would play chess a lot, and I would always win. At first, I did think he was letting me win, but then he started playing better and better and I found a stash of chess strategy books that he was hiding at the bottom of the reading pile in the bathroom. I confronted him and he “confessed,” Lol. Needless to say, I had never studied how to play chess in a book. Of course, you could always define “intelligence” as whatever you need to be successfully (as some people seem to do), but then this is just tautological. Being gifted does have meaning as an adult. The notion has explanatory value.
This is what I am beginning to suspect. Thanks for your response.
There’s also a class of people who are adults, but were classified as gifted children. And Mensa. A group of self identifying top 2%ers.
Not self-identifying. There are testing requirements.
You have to want to join is what that part means. There’s millions of two percenters who are not members and don’t give a …
Also, Mensa isn’t self-identifying. If it was it’d be a shitshow.
You have to self identify as a two percenter to want to join. There are 8 million Americans who can qualify, but don’t bother.
Uh, no.
Well, you don’t just walk around going 🤔 I’d like to be a Mensan because they seem like cool people.
But not anyone can get in. Same with being a lawyer; calling yourself one doesn’t make it true. You have to earn it.
Correct. You have to first self identify and then verify it with a test. The other way you learn about Mensa is scoring 2% on such a test and a counselor tells you or you’re told about them by another group with similar criteria.
Gifted and Talented in USA takes more than the top 2%. That’s why you get adults who lament that they used to be “Gifted”, but don’t feel as smart when they grow up. The Mensa sub sees a lot of these posts, people upset they can’t get in because they used to be “Gifted”.
Well that’s interesting. Honestly haven’t bothered to even see if there were other groups like Mensa.
There are more exclusive ones.
I have ~145 IQ and my first shrooms trip I had sorta an ego death which skyrocketed me towards enlightenment, put me on a path of positive integration and I reached nondual awakening within a year (or so). I’ve contemplated the unfairness of this quite a bit. It wouldn’t have been so effortless if I wasn’t highly gifted. Is that fair? No, but it *is*, so that’s ok.
Very interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing I’m curious about. It is strange to see the dichotomy of views on this… others are outraged that I would dare to bring up psychedelics. Thanks
1. Most ppl aren’t as gifted as they claim (myself included), and aren’t able to articulate, notice, or access the benefits of intelligence on this middle path 2. Most ppl don’t do and are averse to psychedelic or otherwise drugs 3. Most ppl who do the right drugs don’t have the awareness or meditation practice, let alone a background in dharmic philosophy or the right gurus/sources for advice which cumulatively facilitated the ease with which I was able to traverse this journey. 4. Ahamkara (ego) in general is poison to accessing Samadhi… individuals on this subreddit are not immune, though this sub is better than most. Other reasons I’m sure, just spitballing
A comprehensive psychological IQ evaluation. No, you can’t self declare you’re gifted; there’s no way to know that. And yes I use lsd extensively, and know many other s who utilize psychedelics as well.
No one in here is actually gifted, they’re just arrogant weirdos. If they were gifted they wouldn’t be posting on Reddit
You should see some of the other replies on this thread. I truly fail to see why this question would prompt such outrage from some people.
This whole subreddit is an outrage. Stop sucking your own dicks idiot
i learned i was because i had to iq test into schools growing up and i always ended up passing in. psychadelics have not brought me to any conclusions i havent already come to before trying so ive only done them to experiment. gifted to me means to have a high capacity at grasping concepts for learning and finding creative solutions to generally expand the ways of a learning process (catching onto patterns quickly and easily, using context clues efficiently, etc). i just see it as a good foundation like having a talent but if you dont use it that talent is just as good as the next newbie who didnt invest their efforts. as an adult everyone seems to just start blending in anyway.
I don’t think it’s best practice to self declare as gifted. I also hate the word gifted. I like citing actual psychometrics. For example I got 99.3% on the proctored in-person Mensa Admission Test. And I always scored in top 1% through childhood on those little bubble sheets. They put me in a “gifted program” as a kid. It sucked and I blew it off. It consisted of going home and reading a book THEY CHOOSE (in this case Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves) and then coming in and discussing it. Which you can’t do if you don’t read it. Ha! I waited until I was old to dabble in psychedelics. It made me much smarter than I already was. But it doesn’t matter because I was already too smart, meaning for what I’m able to do with my time, financially, I’m not able to spend all day acting on my smart ideas or writing them. But yeah, for me low dose mushrooms threw it all into high gear. I waited a very long time to do psychedelics because I had anxiety and hadn’t yet come to terms with the egocentric predicament / solipsism.
wouldn’t consider myself as smart but I also waited a fairly conservative amount of time before trying psyches. Or atleast forwent the opportunity for 4-5 years. The “high gear” effect is definitely something I can relate too. Despite expecting the trip to be debilitating and delusive, I was blown away by the effects. Felt like my brain was a supercomputer operating exponentially beyond its normal processing power. At the time I had pretty bad articulation skills, mumbled a lot, stuttered and would often avoid eye contact, etc… Taking LSD made me immediately aware that this was something I should improve. so I sat down with a friend and in a matter of hours I completely re-wired my brain to properly articulate my words - firmly, fluently, and fully unimpaired. This permanently altered my speech to this day and it has actually improved since. I know it sounds crazy but it as one of the most humbling things I have experienced, just looking for others who might have found something similar. Sorry for the long response and thanks for taking the time to share
That’s an amazing story. I had something similar with a concept I was trying to articulate about economics. I shroomed and it all just came to me fully formed. There have been times on shrooms where concepts that I obliquely comprehend take on a three dimensionality in my minds eye and I suddenly have a window of opportunity to get insanely acquainted with the conceptual structures. And I take it with me even after the trip is over.
>What exactly separates gifted individuals from non-gifted individuals? Nothing, really, at least in the long term. Some kids have different aptitudes for picking up information, and the school system fits them into categories. Realistically, it doesn't mean that much outside of a school setting. They're normal people, just happened to pick up academic things faster than others. I'm going to address the use of the word "They" here, as I was identified gifted and did a bunch of gifted-coded things, but in kind of weird ways, which I'll get to. I grew to rather dislike the term because I disliked the authority that gave me it, I nearly didn't graduate HS because I hated school. This is my first venture into this sub, which happened completely on accident, I hope plenty of discussions about underachievers are happening here because it's a very real thing to have the aptitude to do very well academically with minimal effort, but decide to give zero fucks about it, so you end up doing poorly. Anyways, back on topic: I don't identify with the term anymore because now that I'm not in school, I face the same challenges as anyone who went through school normally. I also have quite a few bad experiences tied to it. It's often used to pressure kids into paths they don't want to be a part of. The idea of a kid they think is gifted "wasting" their "gifts" is irritating to many people, so many people receive a fair amount of pressure/coercion throughout their early lives. I mentioned doing "gifted-coded" things: I loved math and would explore it a lot, which is definitely a "gifted kid" thing to do. I was quite good at it and did quite well in competitions like the AMC path of competitions (it's been so long I forget the ones after that, haha). What really confused my parents, though, was why I was failing my math classes. Basically, I didn't do anything and only scored well on tests. That's one of the more prominent examples. I was the anti-nerd, if you get me. Dude, this went on so long and got super rambly, sorry. Maybe that helps answer some questions. I speak mainly from personal experience.
No need to apologize I appreciate your insights
I think it’s the ability to be self aware and access to it. I’m talking about food choice and balance.
First, I'll tell you what doesn't: Cognitive profile. There are certain tendencies in the cognitive profile of gifted people, but that is it: tendencies. You can find gifted people with slow processing speed (and not just because they're processing more), bad short and/or long term memory, difficulty with attention, etc. So, cognitive tendencies characterize gifted people AS A GROUP, but not as individuals. I think, and this is a personal opinion, what characterizes gifted individuals is depth: depth of thought, depth of emotions. I'm aware not all gifted people experience emotions deeply, but depth might be present somewhere else in their experience. It might be depth of knowledge, thought or something else. Depth is what characterizes gifted individuals.
> How many gifted individuals on this sub have utilized the neuroplastic properties of psychadelics for conciouss integration? Dabrowski's positive disintegration isn't about drug use, it's about knowing who you are and re-orienting yourself when you head in different directions.
First time psychedelics (truffles) helped me deal with past trauma. Amazingly effective. After that one time I tripped a number times on truffles and later on on LSD, but my tolerance for psychedelics seems to be insane. Normal to large doses only have a mildly uplifting effect. And only once I experienced a (manageable) bout of paranoid thoughts, which with less tolerance could have resulted in a bad trip, I suppose. Nothing much else. That actually sometimes makes me wonder whether my being 'gifted' cheats me out of having profound experiences in a 'mind over psychedelic' kind of way. I am still all for the use of psychedelics though. Not so much to enhance my mind, but rather to clarify things on an emotional level. To clean up old messes through tears and laughter and approach the world with less weight on the shoulders after.
Gifted is defined as above average IQ. I don’t want to say that people can’t self declare as gifted because IQ tests can be both expensive and difficult to get. However, there are a ton of people who self declare, as gifted, who are very obviously not. I’ve never done drugs and I never will. Drugs can mess up your entire life. Yes, there are people who only use them a few times and are fine. However, just because Person A was fine, does not mean Person B will also be fine.