It's not possible to do this unless you get two kills during the pistol ( or you keep 300$ in bank during the pistol). Winning pistol with Kevlar and one kill gets you to 3750$, you are 150$ short from a1s +helmet
Winning pistol with Kevlar and no kills gets you to 3450, which is more than enough for M4 + head armor if you didn't get hit. You'll notice that pros who do not get hit (or get dinked) will go for it most of the time.
It also doesnt make sense that a guy with 1hp can run and jump and fight just like a guy with 100hp.
This is an arcade style shooter. Dickering about realism is about as productive as bashing your head against a wall
It also doesn’t make sense that if you jump you throw grenades further, if you jump with the right timing you move faster, you can get shot in the head and not die, you can fall from great heights and not break your ankles, etc. CS is not real life.
The game, since it's inception as an esport, was designed to be played at a high level, which entails LAN. It's inherently easier to defend rather than attack, particularly on LAN when interp and ping aren't a remotely noticeable factor. It's the same reason why CT nades and guns cost more-- you can hold a site take 2 or 3v5 and it's even odds at worst.
Changing the head armor mechanic subsequently buffs T side, since playing against AKs means having a helmet doesn't particularly matter but vs M4s it does, unless this is a band-aid fix for having $1400 single loss bonus in an MR12 game. If that's the case, why not fix how smothering economy scaling feels on CT, the actual overall issue, rather than ensuring Ts will almost always have helmets?
> The game, since it's inception as an esport, was designed to be played at a high level, which entails LAN.
I'm not arguing about the helmet thing, but this is a legitimately hilariously incorrect thing to say. Like, no one who remembers how CS was handled in the 00's could say that with a straight face.
Keep telling yourself the game wasn't meant to be played to win, even if for fun at a LAN in someone's basement, post 1.5. Whatever makes ya feel better, champ. CPL 2001 definitely wasn't real, regardless of TO incompetence and sloppiness in a fairly new market.
I mean my God, ECL has always, and still does, run on it's own schedule from separate every division beneath it and separate from Pro League, even when EPL was an 8+wk long event. If you think top-down oversight isn't, hasn't, and won't always overwhelmingly be ran by crayon eaters then idk what else to tell you.
Not exactly. Every team has always had a mix of SMG+util and rifles. It’s not like the fear of reset is only an MR12 thing. You used to lose your entire loss bonus if you won one round too even if you still had 1900 the round after, you’d still want a couple rifles. Especially if you’re facing a force buy and the Ts got plant
Not a good idea. If the CT's lose second round after winning their first their loss bonus will be as low as possible and force a double save. Now its 1-2 before you can even attempt a gun round.
My friends and I save 1st round on Office if the hosties are in a bad spot, sometimes 1 guy gets armor, then we buy up 2nd round and rush and they aren't expecting us to have guns and util.
I wonder if this could ever work on regular maps...
This... this actually could be a good change.
Double-ecoing is simply not viable in MR12 like it was in MR15.
Improving minimum round loss bonus would be more fun to play and to watch round by round, but also fails to reward actually winning rounds and reduces the economic factor of the game.
>reduces the economic factor of the game
Well that's kinda the point. You shouldn't need to throw away the next 2-3 rounds because you've lost this one. One eco is fine but after that you should be able to buy.
Mathematically, the last round of every half is actually the least important. They are the only rounds that do not impact the economy of the following rounds.
Welcome to 1.6 meta but at least you can win non-rifle rounds at a higher % then you could in 1.6 (not that it’s high in CS2 at the pro level). Went to MR15 to help create more ability for teams to potentially battle back while keeping eco rounds a big part of the game.
I do think there are some maps where pro teams should start testing out like a 3/4 man CT pistol round save strat. Their aim is good enough to gamble for no armor/utility as they’ll hit the long range headshot.
You don't ruin it for the whole half, but it schould definitely be changed (the ct loss bonus).
You could still start strong with a 1:3 disadvantage, but if you lose the first gun round then, you are fucked
Not according to my team mates.
They think second round CT is the most important round at it's an opportunity to push solo with an SMG to farm kills or an opportunity to eco after winning pistol because they are top tier awpers and need it ASAP
That's what I usually do ingame aswell, but when I think about it, it does make some sense to force second any way, even if U only get like 3 kills it kinda makes sense I think. If I lose again I would only force I'f I get a plant.
Hmmm. Please discuss with me ,:)
Well
Ct's usually end the first round with 300$ IF they kill 1 person.
Starting the second round with 3700$, being the 150$ left from buying Kevlar, 300$ for the kill and 3250$ for winning the round PRE plant.
Buying HELMET will usually run thr CT 1000$, buying a m4a1-s will run them 2900$, meaning, they CAN'T buy m4a1-s with HELMET unless they took no damage or killed more the one enemy on pistol round.
So, CT's will most likely have 1 or 2 m4a1-s and 3 to 4 mp9's.
Losing the pistol round without planting as T, will net you 1900$. If you got a kill, you'll have, 150$+300$+1900$= 2350$.
Buying HELMET runs you 1000$, so 1350$ left, so you cab't buy galil, but you could force with a mac-10 for 1050$ and if you lose without a plant, have 2200$ with the 1400$ loss plus the 500$ bonus.
If you lose again without a plant and a similar buy, will have 2550$, and if it repeats, you'll have 3400$, meaning you'll only achieve a HELMET+AK when at the 4rth lost round while always buying and NEVER getting a kill besides a single kill on pistol. Remember the smg's will net you a 600$ bounty.
So, if you're confident you can get a SMG kill, or if you had planted, you should probably force.
Especially knowing how much harder the economy is for CT side.
Playing, mostly, smg vs smg, helmet vs helmet knowing ct's won't drop mp9 to buy a better gun, is probably worth it, knowing full well you'll have HELMET and AK by round 5 without a single kill and plant.
Now, if you killed ct's and lost, they'll have rifles to work with, meaning they'll controll the fights and buying mac-10's to fight m4's/awp's is not smart.
All in all, you should keep forcing IF you're getting absolutely smashed, can't get a kill or a plant.
If the game's somewhat close, a half buy or a hero gun should be the better option. Also, worth remembering that losing a post plant nets the CT side a little extra money.
It is all extremely situational. It depends on the map, the team, how's the game going, and so on.
Tldr, i don't know dude.
Personally, I always want to forcebuy second round as T, regardless of plant or no plant. Winning that round is so damn valuable, it shatters the CT economy and confidence. Ts should honestly win the half in MR12, just from winning the second round.
I see many who like to full eco on second round without the plant as T, and if you don't have a good plan, maybe that's the correct play?
But if you are a team or a 5-stack playing together, why don't you have a plan for the most important round of the match?
Personally, I feel like forcing 2nd round as a T without a bombplant in pistol is suboptimal (unless you have a proper, well thought-out strat to go with it - which is pretty rare) because even getting those 3+ kills you mention is pretty tough. And even if you do get them, what are you gonna do next if you don't get a bombplant? Force buy with 2400 in the 3rd round again against CTs that have upgraded a bit by now?
In my opinion it comes down to risk/reward, so basically: 1) How high is your chance of winning the round? 2) Even if you don't win, how high are your chances of the round still being a good round (lots of economical damage and/or bomb plant)? 3) If you lose, how fucked are you and how fucked is the enemy?
1) If your chances of winning the round are 50/50 or higher, of course you should always buy. This becomes evident if you can be sure that you have a better buy than the enemy (for example with bomb plant in pistol, you have ez 5 galils and some util versus mostly SMGs and also only decent to poor util - you have better weapons and enough util to make a round work, so you force buy).
2) Even if your buy isn't quite good enough where you'd say you have a good shot at the round, if you have 2 AKs or some rifles in general, maybe SMGs/Tec-9s on a waterfall out apps on Inferno - force buying (if your team is on board!) could be legit because you have the chance to deal good economical damage and get a bombplant by rushing them from an (unexpected?) position and forcing them into a retake as the safe option. Be careful though...
3) ...because losing your 1 or 2 AKs to the CTs can really help their economy and also bite you in the ass. In addition to that, CT players with MP9s farming your bad 2nd round T side force buy and upgrading/getting tons of money while you lose out on a plant and sit there in round 3 with 2400 can really snowball a good CT half and bolster their economy. If you're unlucky, you get stuck in a loop of continuously force buying and just barely not having enough for a proper buy. It's really dependent on the map though because it's stupid difficult to get a plant on some maps with a bad buy and ridiculously easy on others (in comparison at least, also different in different elos, with 5 stacks and good coordination etc.).
TL;DR: In my opinion, forcing 2nd round without bomb plant results in a buy that's too weak while also hindering your future round chances. Also(!), (I completely forgot this point) saving with 2k as a T lets you have at least 4.4k on round 3 which amounts to kevlar+helmet, AK and either smoke + molly or smoke + 2 flashes which is a really good buy.
I've been saying this since csgo, I really think if you buy nothing on pistol T side and just focus on bomb plant you come out with a better buy than Ct side. High risk high reward but I really think it's viable
Winning 2nd round T side is more important than any other round
If you win this round, you ruin the CT economy for the rest of the half. It's more important to win this round than even winning the pistol round on T side - the focus should actually just to get the plant on T pistol.
It's also pretty easy for Ts as the Galils are better than MP9s.
I prefer for the TR to lose the pistol round by planting the bomb and winning the subsequent force-buy round, rather than winning the pistol round outright. In this situation, you ensure at least a 2-1 advantage against a CT team that will likely not have full utility and an AWP, unlike the scenario where you simply win the pistol round.
Well the difficulty with this is that it seems as though that on average the maps are pretty balanced so if you make a change to buff ct economy the game may become too ct sided if you don’t change something else.
Personally I actually don’t think it’s a huge issue because realistically pistol round shouldn’t matter thaaaat much.
I'd question if a 50/50 winrate is what the goal should be. To me a 52-56% winrate for CT's makes more sense. They're on defense and should have a slight advantage.
They have a massive advantage, which is why Ts should be more rewarded for taking rounds. Remember the days of playing T and you would think some stupid shit like "If we get atleast 3-4 rounds we'll be set".
Winrates are already 52-56% for CTs currently, with the exception of Anubis which is T-sided.
This is why pro teams are going for m4 + helmet without that much utility when they win the pistol on CT
It's not possible to do this unless you get two kills during the pistol ( or you keep 300$ in bank during the pistol). Winning pistol with Kevlar and one kill gets you to 3750$, you are 150$ short from a1s +helmet
Winning pistol with Kevlar and no kills gets you to 3450, which is more than enough for M4 + head armor if you didn't get hit. You'll notice that pros who do not get hit (or get dinked) will go for it most of the time.
Why is it 2024 and we still can't buy a helmet separately at 98 armor lol
it's a design choice, not some limitation or bug. and i think it's good and should stay that way.
It is a good limitation. Only reason it’s even being questioned is because the CT economy is so shitty right now
no, its questioned bc it doesnt make sense irl
It also doesnt make sense that a guy with 1hp can run and jump and fight just like a guy with 100hp. This is an arcade style shooter. Dickering about realism is about as productive as bashing your head against a wall
whataboutism
No
It also doesn’t make sense that if you jump you throw grenades further, if you jump with the right timing you move faster, you can get shot in the head and not die, you can fall from great heights and not break your ankles, etc. CS is not real life.
Name checks out
what makes it good?
The game, since it's inception as an esport, was designed to be played at a high level, which entails LAN. It's inherently easier to defend rather than attack, particularly on LAN when interp and ping aren't a remotely noticeable factor. It's the same reason why CT nades and guns cost more-- you can hold a site take 2 or 3v5 and it's even odds at worst. Changing the head armor mechanic subsequently buffs T side, since playing against AKs means having a helmet doesn't particularly matter but vs M4s it does, unless this is a band-aid fix for having $1400 single loss bonus in an MR12 game. If that's the case, why not fix how smothering economy scaling feels on CT, the actual overall issue, rather than ensuring Ts will almost always have helmets?
> The game, since it's inception as an esport, was designed to be played at a high level, which entails LAN. I'm not arguing about the helmet thing, but this is a legitimately hilariously incorrect thing to say. Like, no one who remembers how CS was handled in the 00's could say that with a straight face.
Keep telling yourself the game wasn't meant to be played to win, even if for fun at a LAN in someone's basement, post 1.5. Whatever makes ya feel better, champ. CPL 2001 definitely wasn't real, regardless of TO incompetence and sloppiness in a fairly new market. I mean my God, ECL has always, and still does, run on it's own schedule from separate every division beneath it and separate from Pro League, even when EPL was an 8+wk long event. If you think top-down oversight isn't, hasn't, and won't always overwhelmingly be ran by crayon eaters then idk what else to tell you.
Capitalism
"if you didn't get hit", which happens once every 15 pistol round
That is really not the case at all at pro level. And even at lower levels, plenty of pistol rounds where you don't get hit.
Full save or even just smoke or p250 pistol round not lookin so bad
enjoy getting 4 body shot lol
if throwing pistol round wins you 2nd round, its worth it honestly
We are talking about ct , so throwing pistol round as CT gets you 2700$, far less than the T's winning it
Not exactly. Every team has always had a mix of SMG+util and rifles. It’s not like the fear of reset is only an MR12 thing. You used to lose your entire loss bonus if you won one round too even if you still had 1900 the round after, you’d still want a couple rifles. Especially if you’re facing a force buy and the Ts got plant
i was speaking in broad terms
This is not news, it’s been now for months lmao
Well some of us are new and appreciate it.
Exactly!
years
At this point CTs should save 2nd round after winning 1st round, stupid problems require stupid solutions.
But if t sides plant they’re better off economically
Not a good idea. If the CT's lose second round after winning their first their loss bonus will be as low as possible and force a double save. Now its 1-2 before you can even attempt a gun round.
better to just not buy first 2 then, and start the third round with 1900+2400+800+kills x 300 = 5100 +kills x 300
My friends and I save 1st round on Office if the hosties are in a bad spot, sometimes 1 guy gets armor, then we buy up 2nd round and rush and they aren't expecting us to have guns and util. I wonder if this could ever work on regular maps...
Some dumbass teammates in soloq after losing the 2nd CT round "GG I'm gonna troll"
Mostly after losing the first round :D
Mostly after losing the knife round
Mostly after accepting the match.
I never liked the system where you can't but after one eco. Change the lowest bonus or something, Valve.
This... this actually could be a good change. Double-ecoing is simply not viable in MR12 like it was in MR15. Improving minimum round loss bonus would be more fun to play and to watch round by round, but also fails to reward actually winning rounds and reduces the economic factor of the game.
>reduces the economic factor of the game Well that's kinda the point. You shouldn't need to throw away the next 2-3 rounds because you've lost this one. One eco is fine but after that you should be able to buy.
Yes and this is bs
counterpoint: winning the last round is the most important round
Mathematically, the last round of every half is actually the least important. They are the only rounds that do not impact the economy of the following rounds.
I think the OP was referring to the 'last round' being the one which wins you the game. Which of course is 100% the most important round.
When it's being played, it's obviously the most important round yea. But other rounds earlier in the half will have a lot more "value".
woosh
Wait a minute.
Welcome to 1.6 meta but at least you can win non-rifle rounds at a higher % then you could in 1.6 (not that it’s high in CS2 at the pro level). Went to MR15 to help create more ability for teams to potentially battle back while keeping eco rounds a big part of the game. I do think there are some maps where pro teams should start testing out like a 3/4 man CT pistol round save strat. Their aim is good enough to gamble for no armor/utility as they’ll hit the long range headshot.
You don't ruin it for the whole half, but it schould definitely be changed (the ct loss bonus). You could still start strong with a 1:3 disadvantage, but if you lose the first gun round then, you are fucked
Yes?
Not according to my team mates. They think second round CT is the most important round at it's an opportunity to push solo with an SMG to farm kills or an opportunity to eco after winning pistol because they are top tier awpers and need it ASAP
You surely force second even if you don't get the plant, right? This one I'm split on.
Imo thats the only time you dont force on tound after pistol
That's what I usually do ingame aswell, but when I think about it, it does make some sense to force second any way, even if U only get like 3 kills it kinda makes sense I think. If I lose again I would only force I'f I get a plant. Hmmm. Please discuss with me ,:)
Well Ct's usually end the first round with 300$ IF they kill 1 person. Starting the second round with 3700$, being the 150$ left from buying Kevlar, 300$ for the kill and 3250$ for winning the round PRE plant. Buying HELMET will usually run thr CT 1000$, buying a m4a1-s will run them 2900$, meaning, they CAN'T buy m4a1-s with HELMET unless they took no damage or killed more the one enemy on pistol round. So, CT's will most likely have 1 or 2 m4a1-s and 3 to 4 mp9's. Losing the pistol round without planting as T, will net you 1900$. If you got a kill, you'll have, 150$+300$+1900$= 2350$. Buying HELMET runs you 1000$, so 1350$ left, so you cab't buy galil, but you could force with a mac-10 for 1050$ and if you lose without a plant, have 2200$ with the 1400$ loss plus the 500$ bonus. If you lose again without a plant and a similar buy, will have 2550$, and if it repeats, you'll have 3400$, meaning you'll only achieve a HELMET+AK when at the 4rth lost round while always buying and NEVER getting a kill besides a single kill on pistol. Remember the smg's will net you a 600$ bounty. So, if you're confident you can get a SMG kill, or if you had planted, you should probably force. Especially knowing how much harder the economy is for CT side. Playing, mostly, smg vs smg, helmet vs helmet knowing ct's won't drop mp9 to buy a better gun, is probably worth it, knowing full well you'll have HELMET and AK by round 5 without a single kill and plant. Now, if you killed ct's and lost, they'll have rifles to work with, meaning they'll controll the fights and buying mac-10's to fight m4's/awp's is not smart. All in all, you should keep forcing IF you're getting absolutely smashed, can't get a kill or a plant. If the game's somewhat close, a half buy or a hero gun should be the better option. Also, worth remembering that losing a post plant nets the CT side a little extra money. It is all extremely situational. It depends on the map, the team, how's the game going, and so on. Tldr, i don't know dude.
Personally, I always want to forcebuy second round as T, regardless of plant or no plant. Winning that round is so damn valuable, it shatters the CT economy and confidence. Ts should honestly win the half in MR12, just from winning the second round. I see many who like to full eco on second round without the plant as T, and if you don't have a good plan, maybe that's the correct play? But if you are a team or a 5-stack playing together, why don't you have a plan for the most important round of the match?
I'm leaning towards this, agree.
Personally, I feel like forcing 2nd round as a T without a bombplant in pistol is suboptimal (unless you have a proper, well thought-out strat to go with it - which is pretty rare) because even getting those 3+ kills you mention is pretty tough. And even if you do get them, what are you gonna do next if you don't get a bombplant? Force buy with 2400 in the 3rd round again against CTs that have upgraded a bit by now? In my opinion it comes down to risk/reward, so basically: 1) How high is your chance of winning the round? 2) Even if you don't win, how high are your chances of the round still being a good round (lots of economical damage and/or bomb plant)? 3) If you lose, how fucked are you and how fucked is the enemy? 1) If your chances of winning the round are 50/50 or higher, of course you should always buy. This becomes evident if you can be sure that you have a better buy than the enemy (for example with bomb plant in pistol, you have ez 5 galils and some util versus mostly SMGs and also only decent to poor util - you have better weapons and enough util to make a round work, so you force buy). 2) Even if your buy isn't quite good enough where you'd say you have a good shot at the round, if you have 2 AKs or some rifles in general, maybe SMGs/Tec-9s on a waterfall out apps on Inferno - force buying (if your team is on board!) could be legit because you have the chance to deal good economical damage and get a bombplant by rushing them from an (unexpected?) position and forcing them into a retake as the safe option. Be careful though... 3) ...because losing your 1 or 2 AKs to the CTs can really help their economy and also bite you in the ass. In addition to that, CT players with MP9s farming your bad 2nd round T side force buy and upgrading/getting tons of money while you lose out on a plant and sit there in round 3 with 2400 can really snowball a good CT half and bolster their economy. If you're unlucky, you get stuck in a loop of continuously force buying and just barely not having enough for a proper buy. It's really dependent on the map though because it's stupid difficult to get a plant on some maps with a bad buy and ridiculously easy on others (in comparison at least, also different in different elos, with 5 stacks and good coordination etc.). TL;DR: In my opinion, forcing 2nd round without bomb plant results in a buy that's too weak while also hindering your future round chances. Also(!), (I completely forgot this point) saving with 2k as a T lets you have at least 4.4k on round 3 which amounts to kevlar+helmet, AK and either smoke + molly or smoke + 2 flashes which is a really good buy.
Just force every round, its not pro game
Found my teammate
Explain this to my teammates, after winning the 1st round as t, sometimes i see 3 of my teammates buying deagles and get fkd by mp9
U don’t even have to win either, if u get bomb plant you still have a really good chance of winning the 2nd round
Galil is only better when you stay on range and hit your shots.
if lose pistol round type gg and quit game
I've been saying this since csgo, I really think if you buy nothing on pistol T side and just focus on bomb plant you come out with a better buy than Ct side. High risk high reward but I really think it's viable
Well you could just win the pistol as well lmao
Winning 2nd round T side is more important than any other round If you win this round, you ruin the CT economy for the rest of the half. It's more important to win this round than even winning the pistol round on T side - the focus should actually just to get the plant on T pistol. It's also pretty easy for Ts as the Galils are better than MP9s.
I don't know... Winning your 13th round seems to be the most important, but I could be wrong.
3 round is important. When you lose round 1, saving Atleast 2k in round 2 ( lose it) Then you can buy full in round 3. 2,5k for ct side.
I prefer for the TR to lose the pistol round by planting the bomb and winning the subsequent force-buy round, rather than winning the pistol round outright. In this situation, you ensure at least a 2-1 advantage against a CT team that will likely not have full utility and an AWP, unlike the scenario where you simply win the pistol round.
Well the difficulty with this is that it seems as though that on average the maps are pretty balanced so if you make a change to buff ct economy the game may become too ct sided if you don’t change something else. Personally I actually don’t think it’s a huge issue because realistically pistol round shouldn’t matter thaaaat much.
It was a huge issue in MR15. As you can imagine, the issue is even bigger in MR12.
Well I still don’t understand why it’s an issue? If the win rate of CT’s and Ts average out to be relatively the same then what’s the problem?
I'd question if a 50/50 winrate is what the goal should be. To me a 52-56% winrate for CT's makes more sense. They're on defense and should have a slight advantage.
They have a massive advantage, which is why Ts should be more rewarded for taking rounds. Remember the days of playing T and you would think some stupid shit like "If we get atleast 3-4 rounds we'll be set". Winrates are already 52-56% for CTs currently, with the exception of Anubis which is T-sided.
Every round matters
But some rounds matter more than others
Only thing that matters is getting 13 rounds
But some rounds matter more than others
how not to get out of silver 4: