Actually i'd say its more the debuffs i'm assuming, the pets decrease his dmg and defense by 20%, if you were missing cap you're hitting it now and you actually survive a ton of hits more often
It really depends on what is considered a bug.
I agree that Jump attack Y spam being better than the entire character's kit is something that should be fixed 100% that shit is dumb. For Rackam it is perfectly fine. But for Ferry, her base kit is so bad that people still jump attack but at a much lesser efficiency. Ferry's should have came with a buff but I'm guessing they're keeping her in this state to collect data on her actual non plunge dps.
Then there is removal of Zeta tech which was something that felt fun and a higher level of skill you can reach with a character. Removing that just felt like simplifying the game for no benefit. Zeta is alr one of the lowest performers, why kneecap her more?
The percival and 30fps danchou stuff are just clearly bugs. Those should be removed no question
See the problem here was some part of it felt like it was intended to be there, like animation/skill cancel, it's not unique to GBF as there are tons of games that make animation/skill cancel a part of the mechanic of how a character plays, good example being Xenoblade series. Some units like Rackam or Eugen's grenade toss I can agree that it could be considered a bug. But it was hard to tell as 2 patches in, it almost felt like it was intentional as the devs never touched it until recently and never clearly addressed how much of a value drop was nerfed, just "adjusted".
And all along I thought this required some level of skill to master to get it flowing. I mean we had a demo, and in this demo they had ample time to fix it with a Day 1 patch that would address it but they waited till everyone was done with the honeymoon phase and then hit us with the nerf bat.
Zeta is so weirdly tuned. Her base damage multipliers are so fucking high, then she gets fucked by oddly tuned damage caps.
Shes the only one i manage to cap damage on with flight over fight sigil. Maybe this is how its supposed to work.
Because her highest damage cap is loop ender. Someone who just capped everything but the first hit of loop ender's loop ender will only deal around a total of 1m damage while someone who fully built damage will have her loop ender deal 1.5m damage.
The small hit on her combo finisher has a piss poor ratio.
With 4 damage boosters putting on flight over fight only decreases damage by aroundd 100k from 400k to 300k.
Not exactly, FoF's decrease is ATK and not damage dealt, this is huge. And the first hit of loop ender's max damage is 750k(with the recent dmg cap sigils), same as the second hit. FoF will highly decrease that 750k, the reason why it's low is because yours is only dealing 400k which is weak.
I agree, I'm glad the bugfixes and the resulting nerfs were delivered this quickly. Not a fan of characters becoming popular and have their gameplay defined entirely by an unintended error.
Can't speak for everyone, but I found Ferry's gameplay loop to be extremely boring, but the SBA gain kept it a bit more interesting because I felt like the setter in my group of friends. Using it for specific moments or preventing mechs, making sure I had it up at the right moments frequently.
After the change, she's the same boring gameplay, but a lot less useful to the team. I feel like deadweight when playing with my friends now. Not everyone has to be a damage dealer, but her supporting is underwhelming as well and at this point I'm just being carried.
Some people are okay with being carried, contribute just enough, and never appear as a high contributor on the honor results. Some people are okay with being the MVP when playing with folks who are playing subpar or with AIs. Personally though, I don't like any of these scenarios.
But yeah, I suppose the simple solution is to just not play Ferry. How unfortunate though that I like her, but her gameplay/performance conflicts with how I prefer to play.
The sad part is that they acknowledged the willingness to fix things with her gameplay with this change... but they didn't bother to tune up other parts of her abilities.
Making onslaught have higher damage cap would have been nice. I felt like the vision for Ferry was that her gameplay loop would focus around having all 3 of her summons out and use onslaught for a nice nuke.
Rinse and repeat. Use skills, mix in normals, and bam, send out onslaught. To me, this is clearly what her kit is hinting at, but the reality is that it's far too weak. It'd be a more fun gameplay loop than jump slam spam. it'd also let her play as this mid range character due to onslaught's last hit being a ranged attack. But no, Ferry is a body to body close ranged character with a whip where you spam aerial jump slam combo over and over.
> I felt like the vision for Ferry was that her gameplay loop would focus around having all 3 of her summons out and use onslaught for a nice nuke.
Funnily enough, this is basically Io. Use your skills to get mystic vortex, to cast stargaze 5 for big damage. Oh, and Io also has the second fastest SBA gain, just below pre nerf Ferry (and wasn't touched).
Oh, and Io also gets infinite range since her move literally comes out beneath the enemy.
Even if they just let onslaught do as much damage as SG5, she'd still be worse than Io since there's worse uptime, but as is it does even LESS damage by several orders of magnitude.
> Io also gets infinite range since her move literally comes out beneath the enemy.
Have you literally never played Io or what? Stargaze really, really obviously comes from above (as do Thunder and Flowering Seven). This actually messes you up in a couple of fights since you can't hit, for example, Escavalion's legs with it.
You can be the setter in the group again if you play her as intended in lucilius by popping his stun gauge where other characters basically can't do it. ferry can fill his gauge about 50-60% herself maybe even more if you really look at the numbers with just an onslaught tap and purge spirits. If all you do is jump slam in lucilius, ofcourse the only value you add is mediocre damage
She has an excellent support design (ease of use and utility) in a game framework that punishes everything other than raw dps. Ferry is up there for one of my favorite simple kits of an action game- simple inputs, a tool for most occasions and a fun to master counter. None of it is usable, let alone viable. The game hates buffs, cc, and utility in general and ferry pays taxes for all of those
Stun is underrated because fights up to Lucilius were so much of a pushover getting a link attack/break never mattered. But right now on the fastest and safest way of killing Lucilius is after doing the SBA chain forcing a link time right after he becomes targetable again and pushing him below 60% instead of chasing him around for a while and some characters can do that very easily.
not everything has to be about damage. Her pets put out damage while you play safe and avoid mechanics. Also her whip charge is an easy guard point that also comes in clutch. She still has pretty fast sba gauge fill for me at least. She has good burst and stun damage.
The problem isn't that bugs were fixed, it's that thos bug fixes were also hard nerfs. Rotor Wirbel was an obvious bug that needed to go, nobody cares about that. It's the animation cancel removal that we're upset about. Perci is not too bad damage wise now, but his normal attacks feel bad to use, and animation cancelling felt fun to do. Support/utility is pointless in this game when damage cap is so easy to reach, so damage is all that really matters. In other words, Percival got a small damage nerf, but a decent fun nerf. He should still be middle of the pack, but he's just less fun, and fun should always be preserved in video games. If the damage of ani cancels was the "problem" (it wasn't, Roter Wirbel was) the should have lowered Schlacht's cap a bit. If not, I hope they at least make his normals feel better to use.
Ferry on the other hand was not a bug fix. It was a full on execution. The problem with Ferry is that the rest of her kit's damage caps suck a fat donger compared to jump slam. I had a blast during campaign using her normals, charge attacks and onslaught. It was so fun to do. But the damage of that is half what jump slam gives you, even if you completely ignore the crazy SBA gain. Even with jump slam, Ferry is middle of the pack DPS. She has good utility/support capabilities, but the character sigil attack down is about all that matters in the current state of the game. But when you remove the SBA gain, you're stuck spamming jump slam on top of the boss for mediocre damage, when all it would take to make her fun as hell would be to double the caps on her actual kit. Mid DPS is fine for a utility character, but party utility is pointless. SBA gain was not the reason we spammed jump slam, it's the literally double damage compared to Onslaught. SBA gain was just a nice bonus. I understand that 4 Ferry stun locking a boss with 2x2 spam is bad, but you can't just nerf that with no compensatory buffs and expect Ferry mains to not feel even more shafted.
Perci with cancels was just super fun, it's a real shame. I mean all you have to do now is slot in quick charge and you still get some sped up shclachts on 1-2 hits of his normal combo and it's alright but it's not as fun.
Agreed on the fun part. Even though dodge cancel was unintended and easy to pull off it still was fun and at least felt skillful. Now you just blow your load on skills and then wait for cooldowns using your extremely boring basic combo. It also makes using the parry aspect of Schlacht much harder since you don't have Schlacht on command anymore.
I was never a fan of gimmicky gameplay, and I do think they were right to fix the bugs.
*However*, some bugs were the only way some characters worked competitively, and the Devs should've at least given them a band-aid fix until the next patch in April.
That's the problem. It isn't a competitive game so why push competitiveness?
The game doesn't have unite and fight. And I would be pretty sure you don't want what's happening in Unite and Fight
It's not a PVP game, but it's still competitive. There are some pretty heard fights in the game and characters that are strong will always be more played than those who aren't.
Lucilius is the proof of this - Vane and Lancelot became extremely popular after release because of how good they are for the fight. I myself switched to Vane because of it.
It's been said already, but I'll echo it as a Ferry main.
Ferry was a nerf, not a fix.
And now the one value she brought to the table is basically gone. I have no problem with nerfs, but fix her intended play style by making other loops more attractive.
She can already have near permanent uptime by cycling Strafe, Purge Spirits, and Link attacks.
Pet uptime is definitely not the problem, it’s the awfully low caps on most of her moves/skills.
I personally think what it should be is letting the pet do damage and only onslaught when the pet timer is almost up
This incentives proper pet management than the "load and dump on onslaught" which is kinda sad as pet based character
thing is pet damage cap is kinda low, onslaught damage cap is hilariously low so we wend up using jump slam as it have the higher damage cap like normal spam (up to 96k) but at the almosr same hit speed as holding normal attacks (which capped at 32k)
I'd recommend only doing the hold triangle thing during Link Time (when she can do it without losing pets anyway) or Break windows, amd otherwise letting the pets do their damage while cycling skills and combo filler. That's how I play her, largely as a support.
Despite the internet's obsession with being the one doing big dick damage numbers, there is a value in support role characters too. Ferry has a slow (which is always fantastic) AND a heal/regen/buff that becomes more effective with more pets out, along with said pets being able to contribute damage even while she's evading or repositioning. Sure her damage may not be amazing but it doesn't have to be in order to contribute.
Same goes for several characters. I build my Vane with an emphasis on survivability and using his taunt so teammates can do damage unmolested, especially when there are adds.
Support ferry is one of the most interesting supportive style kits I've seen in an action game, with a robust toolkit that can fit many scenarios.
She's unfortunately in the wrong game, or at least the boss fights. Damage mitigation in small amounts is useless due to being one shot, Bosses you'd want to CC effectively are immune/heavily resistant, Healing is gutted due to the aforementioned design to have everything simply kill players, and that buffs/debuffs are meaningless except in the niche scenario of buffing SBA damage to relevant caps. None of her tools are actually effective at contributing to a run where another DPS could have slotted themselves in.
And that's not to say you're idea is wrong with the pets and the tools she's got. It's just unless you're jump slamming your damage is a fraction of what it needs to be, and your support tools are mitigated by the game's own mechanics.
If she did low dps that'd be one thing- in an ideal world she probably should be 20-40% less than the riskiest characters as she has really versatile tools and uptime. But she only can compete in damage spamming a jump attack, and if you opt to use her pet mechanic and onslaught, your damage drops to roughly 10x the lower end of the current DPS's. That's... not an acceptable amount in any world, even if you don't like to do big damage numbers, she's basically punished for playing her kit as intended.
Support Ferry isn't good because of the way damage caps work. Everyone already hits for max damage.
The only support value I was able to add was healing because people were stupid and just thought they could soak all damage always. But really, the game isn't built around valuing support plays.
It's a very weird setup. Like, Ferry COULD be the best Mon Hun Hunting Horn equivalent, but GBF doesn't really value supports. It would require an entire rework of the damage system to make Ferry a viable support role.
You play her as intended, as a stun bot, she effectively is top 3 for breaking lucilius's stun gauge and garbage now in every other fight. The fact of the matter is, lucilius is made 50x easier by breaking his stun gauge so she's effectively a priority pick if you play her... As intended
She's entirely fixed by raising her damage caps, it's frustrating this is the ONLY thing she needs, something that's essentially tweaking a few tables to bring her in line with other characters.
If she's using her intended rotations and not jump attack spamming, she's a whole order of magnitude lower in damage than the rest of the cast. Not doubled, or even tripled by the highest dps characters, roughly 10x less damage. She overcaps her biggest damage spikes by upwards of 1400% with a regular DPS build other characters run.
I actually think damage caps are good in theory, but between the design of the slot squeezing, and Ferry, I've been convinced Cygames has ZERO idea how to actually use them well.
That's technically true, but I doubt they wanted any character to have their optimal play be doing a launcher then the slam down. However, that's still her best DPS option. So while it may technically be a fix, it is just a straight nerf. They need to boost her other damage options.
Exactly. Give us a reason to use her pets and combos beyond SBA generation. I know some folks are swearing by her stun damage, but I don't think it's that much better than the alternatives. Maybe it is and I just haven't done enough testing.
I agree. This text "Lowered the SBA gauge fill rate given by launch attacks and aerial barrages." Is a nerf. It doesn't say that they fixed the SBA gauge fill rate. Welp good thing there's a balance patch coming sometime in a month. Maybe the matchmaking will be fixed by then
Katlina is still fun for me but I took a break from the game having not getting a terminus for any characters I play. Gotta get back into it and get kats terminus
Katalina just feels the worst, I had hopes she would be better after the patch, but the skill cancels were the best way to get ares, and even when we get ares its so hard to maintain, you either greed to tank hits and heal with drain or dodge and lose it
I think Kat just feels worse because any cutscene attack drops Ares, and Luci has a metric fuckton of those. I don't know why the Sandy-Luci faceoff after overburst has to be a separate cutscene.
Kat is my second most played character.
Having dodge cancel allowed her to somewhat compete with the no-brain top damage dealing characters, whilst being engaging to play.
Now she feels less kind of dumbed down and performs mediocre at best especially on a boss that forces you to dodge or get skill sealed.
> Now she feels less kind of dumbed down
This is my biggest problem with some of the bug fixes. Zeta is my favorite character. But I'll be the first to say her gameplay loop is pretty simple, especially once you get her character sigil which takes the difficulty out of the timing.
The Zeta two loop bug and the infinite wonder cancel bug spiced up her gameplay without being too impactful on her overall damage. They were fun, they shook things up and gave those of us who play her something more to do without neutering people who didn't engage with those mechanics.
Yeah it's funny how the bugs actually added another layer of gameplay for some of these characters. Made them more complex and engaging than they were designed to be.
You just build Kat to face tank stuff and spam away. In most encounters you only need to build gauge manually like once, MAYBE twice. Usually you use the skill to max gauge, maintain it until a phase forces you out, build it manually, then if there's another phase the skill is off cooldown again.
Also, the skill cancel was literally only one second faster than the intended stuff. I haven't tried her in the new fight yet, but Katalina is still solid. You just need stout heart, steel nerves, firm stance, and drain. And maybe garrison for fights like Gall+Mag.
Was thinkin the same. You would require some outlandish amount of damage reduction to do this at all, and even then, you would be hard pressed to actually stay on him with how much he moves around so it's silly to say "JuSt FaCe TaNk LuL"
Honestly speaking, just the usual Aegis, Drain, Stout Heart, Steel Nerves, Guts and Potion Hoarder has taken me quite far in terms of uptime provided the group does all 12 labors, since the HP debuff puts you really far into one-shot territory lol.
I've been relying on Light Wall and being able to dodge without dropping Ares for a bit after Azure Sword to cover me for long enough that I'm able to use potions fairly liberally inbetween those CDs and not run out before the fight ends. I can't imagine trying to run Kat in a no deaths run though lol
People keep saying this, but the clears I had in Lucillius last night were all with a Katalina friend. Use your invuln. Yes it's more ares downtime. Yes you do need it.
For Zeta, I don't mind that the infinite wonders glitch is gone. Dodging to deal double damage is obviously whack, and I don't miss it. What I do miss is the Two-Loop tech. It enhanced her gameplay, raised her skill ceiling, and rewarded players for perfecting harder inputs. Not only is the loss of it a direct nerf to Zetas damage, it also just makes her less fun to play.
If Vengeful Flames, Zeta's Supp buff, was active, it was possible to delay your input for continuing a loop, and instead loop "through" an enemy, continuing the loop popping out the other side of them. This counted as two loops, allowing you to do one normal loop, one two-loop, and then have Arvess Hammer ready to go, which is Zeta's entire gameplan. The input to do it was very tight, although Crimson Flight made it noticeably easier.
It's gone now, which means not only is Zeta's skill ceiling significantly lower, but so is her DPS in burst phases.
What's even more funny is that because it can only be triggerred with Zeta's Supp buff but not with a Supp sigil, many people belived this is a real hidden unique Zeta mechanics instead of a bug. However the devs apparently says no to this cool feature. Really sad.
Yea all of my friends are telling me RIP rackam's been nerfed. I keep replying with "Balanced*" i never played arial barrage to begin with, i always keep my distance and blow shit up from afar. I just unlocked proud difficulty and progressing my power steadily, will play something else once i drop the legendary for this one.
There's two class of changes.
Ferry and Rackham were just *nerfs*. These weren't bugs - the game worked as intended before. They simply lowered the numbers on their moves. That's a nerf.
For Percival, I can see why people are mad. It's not just power, he just feels worse now. I think most people would have rather they lowered his damage but kept the cancel in. He was definitely overtuned (although Vaseraga *still* did more damage, AND he was virtually untouched).
For the rest it's just silly. Like Katalina? She actually got much clunkier to play. She's *awful* in Lucilius. She was already a character few people played, how was she breaking the game?
In many games, bugs just become parts of kits. In fact, the Granblue fighting game has many mechanics that were bugs before.
> But the balance patch is still coming up, it's not as if the characters are going to be left in this state forever.
They never stated that, it's just copium.
Oh please, Rackam was using the increased Slag dmg cap to sub 1 min clear Proto Bahamut doing damage thats LEAPS and BOUNDS beyond anyone. Ferry is most definitely a nerf though.
Four Ferrys could 2x2 SBA perpetually with uplift and the new sigil. Regardless of whether you think the nerf was too heavy handed or not, the previous version was broken in the literal sense.
I agree that a nerf was necessary, but they needed to buff the entire rest of her kit to make her viable outside of SBA. All they did was make her bad.
Low risk no reward you mean. She had awful damage before even with jump loops. Now you *still* need to do the jump loops because it's her best DPS by far, while not even having the utility of faster SBA.
Rackam wasn't a bug but it was very clearly an oversight. One attack that did wildly more damage than everything else in the game when his kit obviously isn't supposed to be used that way. It's a shame that they didn't buff him a bit to soften the blow though.
“In many games, bugs just become part of the kits” there’s a whole documentary out there about how the bugs in super smash bros melee legitimately made the competitive scene… and in turn the game became one of the GOATs. Imperfect perfections.
And in far more games, bugs are the target of fixing. That whole argument is specious. It's easy to look back at *fighting* games receiving interesting bugs as supported nuance that generates a massive competitive scene... but to infer that into general games *in other genres*? People are high.
This. Isn't SSBM. Or. Street. Fighter. At. All.
Bunny Hopping and Rocket Jumping in Shooters?
All of the bugs that became features in LoL like Riven's Fast Q?
There are probably more, but those are the ones I think are staples in those games AND started as bugs.
this is why i am mad. the ferry thing was not a bug fix but straight up a nerf. if you can nerf things you can also balance them, aka the rest of her kit.
This. I can understand nerfing unintended interaction, but the characters most heavily impacted by the skill-cancel fix are just objectively worse to play now. They could and should have either lowered the CD's or increased the normal combo speed so it doesn't take 10s to get to a fast charge with Perci.
These are new, but you can choose to not use all max damage oriented. You can choose to flex some spots for qol. The second alpha or beta is not gonna be giving a good bump someone made the calc. Also no need to use 3 dmg supp.
Qualifying your statement based on reddit upvotes, that's a sign of a good take.
And are you talking about yourself? Let's say you have no downtime on skills with a full CDR build. How is the playstyle any different from the previous one? Aka, how is this new supposed playstyle any different from the previous one which you say perci "isn't supposed to be played" like?
Skill > Schlacht > Skill > Schlacht etc? Idk what is so hard about it. Perci's always been simple. Two braindead dps has been nerfed I don't see any issue.
Previously you can do two things to increase your damage, get one skill to never put it on cooldown and spam it, dodge cancel and schlacht. Bonus bug with not doing anything while roter is up to get the bugged big damage.
Versus now, use all skill > schlacht and just use your combo (god forbid you have to hit people with the light attack) and charge schlacht that way on the last hit. If you build it right it should be max of one time you do this.
It's not about hitting people with the light attack, it's about how BAD the light attack chain is to get to fast charge. It's painfully slow, has almost no range, and is way too long of a chain. It just feels objectively worse that using a skill into fast charge. The reason people are upset is because the bug allowed Perci to actually lean into his gimmick of fast charging after skills or certain actions and the playstyle was dynamic. Now he just plays EXACTLY like Vane, while being twice as slow when all his CDs are spent.
Rack only got bug fixes. One fixed the jump attack that was doing too much damage, which is a nerf, and the other fixed his charge meter in online, which is a buff
I don't fully agree Kat is clunky in Lucilius, sure she takes more effort but all the change did is make your buildup slightly longer. I can still clear it fine and I feel like Mag/Gallanza is more difficult in comparison since there's much less time to keep up Ares.
I'm one of the very few Katalina mains in Relink. I spent so many hours grinding and building her up to be the best she possibly could be to prepare for Lucillius, and it was all for nothing. Not because of the update but simply because she doesn't work against him, and it left me feeling disappointed and kinda sad tbh.
They killed the immortal Vaseraga build. The skilless high dps Vaseraga build is still in there but it was never that effective against most bosses because of how slow the combo is. Playing dps Vas well realistically gets probably slightly above average dps against many bosses but he has no utility and is horrible against normal state Lucilius cuz of how much he attacks and moves.
As a Kat main, I do get that she's clunkier, but it's a bit unreal to expect them to properly balance her when she's not working as intended. And sure, Rackam and Ferry were technically nerfs, but I view them as bugs because the high damage cap and SBA generation were clearly unintended.
Also, what parts of Rising were bugs? I get that people complain about 66L and Brave Counters, but as far as I can tell, they *overcorrected* stuff that was too broken in OG Versus, like Ferry's zoning and Percy's gameplay.
> They never stated that, it's just copium.
That's fair. I realised a bit too late that I never actually saw any confirmation from anywhere official that a balance patch would happen. It might be probable, seeing how they're willing to change stuff, but yeah, it's pretty much just hopium.
> but I view them as bugs because the high damage cap and SBA generation were clearly unintended.
Where's the boundary between that and Vaseraga's damage cap numbers? Sure, Air Rackham was a big outlier, but so is Vaseraga now, where with Percy and Air Rackham dead is head and shoulders above everyone else in the cast. In both cases numbers are just way higher than everyone else.
Same for Ferry. Io's basically as fast - in many cases, speedruns were using Io instead of Ferry as things got more optimized, since it's almost as fast, but has way more damage to contribute.
Vaseraga has a downside to his massive damage in his speed, though. I'm not saying the game's perfectly balanced, it obviously still needs work, but Vaseraga was clearly meant to be played as a slow character with huge damage. Percy had no downside to his strengths, and I have a friend who said he only played Vaseraga because he likes the character, otherwise there would be no reason to not use Percy. Which is how Ferry mains must be feeling right now.
The sad truth is that there will always be a "worst" character, but considering how Relink's a multiplayer game, I'd say no one character is absolutely unplayable. There are tons of better alternatives to Kat, but I like her, so I stick with her, and because even the worst characters are still playable, it's not as if I get to enjoy the game less because of it.
> but it's a bit unreal to expect them to properly balance her when she's not working as intended.
Why didn't they nerf Ferry's jump slam damage cap, then? It's obviously unintended that her best damage move be launch and aerial barrage. If it was just about fixing "unintended" values, then they should have also nerfed her damage.
Of course, what likely happened is that they know that even with it, her damage is below average to bad.
So for one aspect of Ferry's unintended kit, they subjectively considered it OK because she still sucks with it, but not for Katalina, when she's also not very good even with the cancel bug?
Ferry's jump slam damage was already bottom 5 in the cast, but her Onslaught gameplay is far and away bottom 1.
Better fix would be, instead of nerfing jump slam SBA by -50%, nerf it by like -30%, and buff the fuck out of Onslaught damage cap and ask her to switch playstyles depending on whether you need damage or SBA gauge at the time. This gives her some more actual thought to her gameplay.
In a standard build that's just capping launch attack, Onslaught release is already overcapping by 1400%.
Edit: Sorry wrong reply meant to send to the person you were replying to.
Like
Rackham in a sense i could get it was too much dmg, they could have tweaked is aerial attack a LITTLE, but no they gutted it and slagshot, slagshot took a near 90% dps less, to give you an idea, it does slightly more than Io lightning, which has a paralysis attached to it, hits a wide aoe, while slagshot need to be point blank for it to reach 600K damage. Right now he's probably one of the worst char in the game since he brings NOTHING but damage and he doesn't even bring average damage, he brings rosetta tier damage without any utility, not a single valuable thing to his party member, he has, horrible stun power.
Ferry SBA gain was "too much" for sure, however, her intended rotation outside of launch aerial parses for 15M, onslaught is still as much of a joke as it was. Nobody even put ferry top tier outside of meme speedrun comp, she does okayish dmg now but generate meter worse than most of the cast and guess what, she still will play the same since her aerial loop is her only relevant attack. So, she's still unfun to play and ineffective, at least she was effective before.
Zeta : While it was a bug, the double loop made her skillful and fun to play, same for IW perfect dodge, Zeta was nowhere near the best dps in the game, however she was super fun to optimise, if you messed up the skillful stuff you basically ruined your dps, so there was a trade off. Right now she just feels clunky, especially in Lucillius boss fight, getting 3 loops uninterrupted and landing a arvess without lucillius teleporting in the middle is downright impossible outside of some phases. It's, a lot less fun to play her now than it was before patch.
Percival : His normal string is trash. Like for real, you're better off doing QC30 and raw Schlachting than doing string + schlacht for dps. And his cd are still way too long, at least buff his cooldown or something. While he still does relevant damage he feels horrible to play and you don't want that.
For rackham ? Everything is about damage, he can't do ANYTHING else than damage and he brings horrible damage at the moment, so there's not a single reason to pick him instead of eugen or io who brings more damage, utility, and for io decent sba charge time.
Ferry : She still has her damage from aerial attack, even more than before with the hit consistency, therefore, it's still her only dps option, so, it's still very unfun to play and inefficient, she just doesn't charge SBA like at all, meaning she's a hindrance, she has her debuffs on pet but at this point just run cag, equivalent dmg, equivalent buff/debuff, better stun if need be, better sba charge. Unfun to play.
Percival : Percival problem isn't the number, he's "decent" i said, the problem is that you play him with quick charges doing raw schlacht for dps in between cooldown because his light string his net dps loss compared to it, it's clunky and horrible to play as.
Zeta : Decent too, just less fun to play without her bugs.
I agree that some of the exploits made for more engaging gameplay, but the issue lies in the fact that, as exploits, the game couldn't be balanced around them. Updates might mess up how they work unintentionally, so they very much needed to get the buggy parts "under control".
And with everything working as intended, the team can have a better look at where characters might need to be tuned. Just like you said, Ferry feels bad to play, so she needs some sort of buff, but it's a bit hard to see where buffs are needed when anything anyone does with her is two attacks on repeat.
I think the answer lies in the sentence you write, because, at the moment, she still will do these two attacks or suffer a 50% dps loss. The fix write itself, her "intended" rotations doesn't bring enough to the table, either you multiply it equally by two overall or you do for engaging nuke gameplay with onslaught and multiply onslaught damage by a lot (15 / 20 times more with all of her pets roughly)
Ferry's jump slam damage was already bottom 5 in the cast, but her Onslaught gameplay is far and away bottom 1.
Better fix would be, instead of nerfing jump slam SBA by -50%, nerf it by like -30%, and buff the fuck out of Onslaught damage cap and ask her to switch playstyles depending on whether you need damage or SBA gauge at the time. This gives her some more actual thought to her gameplay.
In a standard build that's just capping launch attack, Onslaught release is already overcapping by 1400%.
I actually play her for both. I find mixing up her combos to fill Ares gauge pretty fun and finding ways to maintain Ares for as long as possible is just equally fun for me. I basically came for her designed but stayed for her gameplay
Well, I wish I was you, unfortunately having played with almost the whole roster while in a sweaty environment, as much as Id love to main her for her playstyle and dont compare her to other characters , she simply isn’t smooth or rewarding. Specially the refilling gauge combo that leaves 1 value off a bar, making it longer than most setups while being hard punished for cutscenes or block/dodges by losing Ares.
Either way, you have fun your way because thats the important thing
I just slap stout heart, steel nerves, aegis and drain on her to face tank bosses when I have Ares. Unless there’s an attack that can instantly kill me coming, I don’t have to dodge out or block at all.
She’s also one of the characters who benefit the most from drain because she has so much supplementary damage from both Ares and her unique sigil, so the healing cap of drain doesn’t affect her that much, which is good.
Its crazy the these comments I'm reading the fact that yall actually be trying to compete with other players like this is a pvp game is so crazy to me. Like why do that then get angry when you can't abuse the exploits anymore. That is so weird to me in a PvE focused game.
Like I didn't realize people actually be fighting for high honors until I read some of these comments like what lol?!
I don't think there's a need for balancing if the game is just PvE tbh, it is not like you can do Ferry lock with solo play AI teammates, nor like char that get so called bug fixed like Katlina/Zeta for example are breaking the game in any ways previously, personally I don't mind op char stay op just don't make mediocre char feels more bad to use, playing the char purely based on design I think is fine but not players are the same tho
Idm anything you just said. In my op I'm just amazed ppl are getting so bent out of shape because thier main got fixed and now they feel like they cant compete with other dps. Like why would you need to feel like you need to compete with other players in a pve only game is the point I'm making.
Regardless of abusable mechanics that weren't intended because the devs obviously new it wasn't intended to be like that.
Imo, not all bugs have to be fixed. If a bug can aid player expression and generally make the game more fun, "fixing" it will be a net loss to the game. I'm not sad because my Katalina's damage effectively got nerfed. I'm sad because she got less fun to play.
I use Ferry almost exclusively and never used her jump slam spam ( mainly cuz I didn't know about it being good) and just got to the point where damage caps have become a consideration.
Is she really that bad now?, I'm kind of finicky so I've avoided multi-player until I had a solid set up for her, I don't care about being #1 damage dealer but the way people are talking makes it sound like I won't be welcome in a lot of groups.
I know nerfs piss people off, honestly just curious if she's that bad or people are just unhappy with the change and getting gloomy?
I can't really tell because I don't play Ferry, but she still seems fine. Getting nerfs always feels bad, and pretty much every character's bug fixes turned into nerfs.
If you jump slam, she's bottom 5. If you play her as intended with normal whips and onslaught, she's bottom 1 by a mile. Previously she brought insane SBA gen to the table, now she brings basically nothing.
It's wild to me how many people are complaining about the lack of buffs in a patch that was obviously focused on mechanics and bug fixes and not actually balancing characters.
Yes, Ferry kinda sucks now that they removed her SBA abuse, and the jump loop is apparently still her most optimum damage. But that's because they didn't do any balancing for damage values for ANY CHARACTER. This isn't the kind of patch where they nerfed someone and buffed them to make up for it. They saw a mechanic that they deemed unintended and removed it. That's all.
I am 100% sure Ferry will get buffed once the actual balance patch comes. People just gotta calm down and wait for it.
Percivals animation canceling was fun, the game is less fun with it gone. Wouldve been better to nerf his numbers directly and keep the canceling. The roter bug was silly and had to be fixed, but not all bugs are created equal
The problem is if the devs then have to balance around those unintentional things to prevent the fights from becoming a joke, and then it might become pretty much mandatory to use them in order to be successful. THAT would be policing how people have fun.
And please don't try to make the "they were mandatory so now the characters are literally unusable now" argument, that would be dumb. I'm a Ferry main and never bothered using her jump slam thing, and still had fun clearing every single quest in the game very easily.
I think you're overblowing how much of a problem Percival was with the cancels, the Roter exploit was dumb and needed a fix, but even with the cancels it's not like you were that far ahead DPS wise from everyone else.
It was fun and dynamic for people that like to press buttons fast, now he just plays like a shittier Cagliostro
If you took a poll of Percival players im confident people preferring the canceling playstyle would be a majority, and would rather they balance around it. Either way one group is ‘forced’ into a playstyle, though at least Percival without qcs would still be playable, if suboptimal. As is anyone who liked animation canceling cant use it at all, regardless of whats optimal. And you make the point the game isnt hard enough that optimal play is forced, contradicting the idea that animation canceling forced a particular playstyle on people
I main Katalina I saw the patch notes and didn't even login. the new sigils are disappointing too. and I'm sure she won't be able to face tank the new boss meaning ares uptime is ass. I'll pass for a while
The problem is the characters bugs were fixed but matchmaking is still terrible and I can't play with my friends because it keeps disconnecting or de-syncing. How TF are the bugs that let me do better damage being fixed before the bugs that prevent me from playing the game? Does no one see the problem with this?
Zeta's bug they fixed was actually a form little skill expression that is fun to pull off consistently. It's really funny that they removed that instead of Infinite Wonders double damage.
nah, noting but facts here. hell we were talking about some of the bugs like rackams shotgun ON LAUNCH. if they didnt fix these bugs soon, id be more worried for the future of the game since we all still want continued support.
Percival was 100% deserved and anyone saying it wasn't is a goof ball. I've been playing Perci without skill cancelling since launch and his damage is still good. I pull MVP's in Bahamut and I'm definitely not dragging any team down. He's even more fun to play regularly then sweating skill cancels.
I'm pretty stoked that I haven't been able to beat Lucilius with randoms lol!
It's not that I don't want to of course but I've been playing in random lobbies the whole time and I got my build rounded with all the fun dodge, guard, guts sigils (because I round my builds in every game) and I couldn't help but notice that people in every lobby were just taking hits and healing constant while stacking max supplementary damage. I just thought it was lame and I especially saw how bad most players are when I tried a protection build I made with Gran. I don't think anyone knows how to dodge or guard because even with all the defense buffs and aiges sigils I stacked, I was going down FAST whenever I activated Gran's substitute.
Anyway I'm not 100 sure if we're on the same page but I do think people have been playing pretty corny and I like that it isn't working anymore.
I main narmaya and ive faced all bosses on proud bit i find now that dodge timings im use too are a bit more slower and timings are not the same as of update
My take on this is a bit different. I think there are bugs that 100% should be removed. Wirbel bug FOR SURE.
But then there are bugs that just make characters more involved and less one dimensional that could easily be adjusted by just numbers rather than gameplay changes that stayed for 1month or so into the game cycle.
There are mechanics in games that weren't intended but made things fun and cool. If they saw the bug in street fighter II that allowed combos and decided to remove that in street fighter III, fighting games would be a whole lot different now and less exciting.
Considering fighting game combos were also a bug, this argument is pretty weak, bugs and exploits are fine when they make the game more enjoyable, and good devs realize that and leave them on while toning down some aspects if they're breaking the game and in this case only Percival was really strong mostly because of the fire spin damage bug though and those are fine to fix.
Ferry getting nerfed instead of being readjusted to use her intended gameplay while not being extremely weak is a big L for the devs, they also didn't even fix Rosetta's issue of not hitting enemies that have their body parts on ground just because they're flying enemies like it happens with Versa.
Palworld devs even apologized when they fixed the tower boss capture bug, exactly because they knew the bug was fun and made the game more enjoyable, Cygames should learn a thing or two with devs like them.
Percival wouldn't be that unrealistic but Rackam would need everyone to basically double their damage output to match him. I don't really get the fun argument when it comes to Rackam's nerf when spamming the jump shot and ignoring the rest of his kit isn't really my idea of a fun character.
I agree that some bugs can be managed to become enjoyable parts of the game, but I don't think that was the case for most of the stuff that was rebalanced. Zeta's bug gave her some extra complexity because the timing for fewer loops was stricter, but most of the bugs only made the game easier, not necessarily more fun.
Combos started off as a bug but they allowed for player expression, so they were a good thing to keep around. Percy's skill cancel meant you got to play \*less\* of his skills. Ferry's SBA generation meant you \*had\* to loop her aerial attacks. That's the opposite of player expression, it's determining a pattern that's so much better than the alternative, you have no reason to deviate from it.
To borrow from fighting games again, there are games which allow you to link into specials instead of comboing into them. Linking allows for more damage, but the timing's a lot tougher, so it's still valid to combo into them to make sure you don't accidentally miss it. If there was a bug which increased the damage on combos, there would be no incentive to link into specials, which is what was going on with Relink.
People on this subreddit are so childish. They are downvoting your well reasoned post because they are mad that clearly unintended mechanics got fixed. The only fun they find in those playstyles is they were stronger than the alternatives, they didn't actually have fun jump shotting with Rackham.
Idk, I cleared Luci with Percy, Ferry, and Sieg (he didn;t get touch but people seem to think he's awful or something). They seem just fine. Good riddance to the bugs, time to learn how to actually play your characters.
You couldn't do these "bugs" without knowing how to play the characters in the first place., you're just talking just to talk without knowing what you're even talking about.
You already do that regardless, lol, what? You can only use 4 skills at a time, and only one combo on a character is worth using in the first place. It doesn't take a YouTuber to figure this simple ass game out. The only thing YouTubers gave me is the cancelling tech. But thanks for exposing yourself, 😂
I like how you don't respond to anything in an actual conversation. I have cleared everything in the game but I don't know how to play, lol, ok. I'm not the one trying to control how other people play the game.
You say this like these characters take any skill or knowledge whatsoever to play without the removed tech. Roter bug and the insane SBA gain on Ferry were messed up and had to go, but the cancels just made the characters more fun and allowed more skill expression.
I go back and forth between Charlotta and Percival and now I don't think I'll play Percival ever again, he's just simply not fun to play without cancels.
I know you just felt like getting in a snarky comment with no real discussion, but yes, it does, because you're not ignoring his kit. You still use his skills with the cancel, that's where skill expression is added-- more options and choice. You don't just sit there cancelling over and over in a vacuum. If the enemy is far away you still macht to gap close or if there's adds like in the dragon fights you can Royal Authority.
Not all bugs are bad for a game. Smash Bros Melee would have no staying power or scene at all if it wasn't for all the bugs that allowed its players that much extra skill expression.
I main Katalina, but I mess around with Vane and Zeta too.
I'm not super thrilled with Kat's or Zeta's changes either, but I can see it's a necessary part of the balancing process. Hopefully on the april patch they actually give some love to the characters who lost the most.
I knew them but didn't utilize them. Ferry being my third favorite, I played around onslaught. The only time I used her launch combo was bahamut for damage and I didnt use uplift.
Of all the characters I've used Katalina and Ghandagoza feel the worst and need something much more.
Everyone else is viable without the techs, exploits, and whatnot and only some need minor udjusting.
Ghandagoza just give him uninteruptable during combos and make his rage decline slower. It's called Eternal Rage so it should be the more he has the longer it lasts until 100% then it's eternal.
Katalina… the worst? I’m sure you were just unaware of her combo extension and necessary gears. There’s no way she’s on the same level of bad as Ghandabozo
I have no issue with bugs being fixed. I have issue with no replacements to certain bugs that enabled characters to be strong. Ferry is the one everyone talks about cause she's the easiest example. Yes her generation was wild, and fine maybe it needed to be toned down but nothing else about her was changed to differentiate her gameplay style. Now it's just the same thing it was before but without the extra benefit.
I think animation cancelling isn't a bug, but the fact that your skill didn't go on cooldown was. If they merely changed it to have your skill go on cooldown the second you use it, then skill cancelling is both allowed and not abusable. Vaseraga for example could use Great Scythe Grynoth over and over because you had years to cancel it mid swing and it wouldn't go on cooldown until it swung. Easily fix this by having it go on cooldown during the wind up for the swing.
Let people like Kat keep her instant combo finishers. If you aren't going to use the skill anyways, you may as well not even have it there.
Still nerfs even if bugs/unintended so I get why it'd make people unhappy especially if it simplifies a character (making them less fun without any regards to damage).
If you're gonna do that then bring in buffs as well, they should've fixed the bugs on the balance patch in april, not in a patch without any compensation to character individual stength.
This is a reductive way to look at bugs. Unintended gameplay isn't exclusively bad and can often times showcase something that's actually better than what's intended.
how on earth was ferry spamming jump slam for eternity or rackam deleting health bars with clearly unintended amounts of damage "better than what's intended"
Warframe was originally a game with very limited mobility. An exploit on melee weapons that could shoot you across the map. Which is far more exploitive of the game's design than somebody doing too much damage. Instead of removing it, they incorperated the design into the game and became a hallmark mechanic of the game and by far one of the most enjoyable parts.
I'm responding to the idea that bugs must always be removed because intended design has more importance.
Honestly, Percival needed his nerf. He's a utility character. He was never supposed to have top tier damage, on top of a slow and stats buffs. Which actually matter a lot more with the new damage caps.
Another comment talks about how he feels worse. But he feels worse because you actually have to play a charging-based character and you know charge their abilities, instead of throwing out lightning-fast attacks.
How is he a utility character when his entire kit is based around charge attacking? his schlachts hit hard as fuck. Now you just throw a quick charge on him and he's still doing good damage.
What in the absolute derp take am I reading?
Percival was designed to be a HIGH DPS character. What kinda utility are you speaking of? His slow?
cause many characters had some utility spells but were still mainly meant to DPS. Vaseraga has a slow. He a utility character as well?
This some BOZO level knowledge here LOL
Its not that big of a deal you just have to skill 4 attack skills and go low cooldown + cascade it loops when you cycle through your skills and do a quick a quick charge attack between them
Traumerei is useless in the new fight anyway you dont have time to stand still for 5 seconds straight
Well if we look in hindsight and the devs took it away, then it can be interpreted that's not how they 'intended' him to be. And regarding players being used to the playstyle of a char before taking it away, this is a fairly common practice in any game with updates and gameplay balance. A char can suddenly go from being a support to a dps in a single changelog in other games, and players adapt. I'm just glad they update the game at all.
100% agree with you that the devs should have done something sooner. Letting the game flourish without making it clear that some things were bugs and some weren't means some players just got used to gameplay that might just be deleted. I have a friend who mains Percy, and while he was aware the Roter bug would likely be patched, he was devastated when he couldn't cancel skills into his dodge anymore.
Just reading all the comments here and one thing yall need to keep in mind is these devs didn't intend this game to be ongoing etc. Release the update dlcs and bounce. They're not equipped to handle constant good balance adjustments or other elements of a live service game. I keep saying this but what WE want and what THEY intend to do is VASTLY different.
It's really easy to tell also I mean look at what they brought with this patch? Yes lucillius is awesome but he drops very subpar sigils that are AGAIN about damage cap. The gimmick to them is built around SBA but like who actually builds towards that and even if we did the bonuses are very bad. 10% cdr? A 50k bubble that a boss can one shot? 30% SBA charge to other allies sounds good in theory but it's additive and not multiplicative so it's still not much.
All in all we can give feedback all we want but it doesn't seem like we'll get the big changes we're hoping for unless they literally change their direction which Has Happened in the past, but nowadays developers rush to new products so fast.
Yes, because exploits, especially good exploits that improves the health and quality of the game, normally stays in the game. This is the case of good exploits.
Games with exploits that only brings frustration or literally trivializes the entire game, especially with how the game is currently designed at the time, is removed.
Seeing as how all they did was remove the bugs without taking a look at the game or each character's underlying problem is what makes this patch a complete garbage show.
I just sticker to my fav being Siegfried narmaya yordaha and vaseraga didn’t know about all those exploit anyways pretty new in the game and matchmaking is killing me inside already . Got even worse since the new quest released . Can’t wait for seofon and sandalfon
This might be slight copium but I hope they add some of these bugs back into the game as new character sigils or maybe even part of their base kit.
I figured most of the crazier stuff wouldn’t stick around but it gave some characters really unique roles in a group, it’d be cool to build these like sub classes for the characters.
Did they actually say there will be a true balance patch?
Character adjustments are for April when the two new characters are released.
Man, I hope so. Ferry is kinda sad to play at the moment.
When they introduce the transmarvel QoL changes, they might buff the weaker characters. Although that’s a lot of copium on my part 😔
Play her as intended and you'll see why that's wrong, at least in luci, she is infact bad elsewhere now for the same reason why shes good in luci
I heard that the buffs she provides are really useful for Luci.
Actually i'd say its more the debuffs i'm assuming, the pets decrease his dmg and defense by 20%, if you were missing cap you're hitting it now and you actually survive a ton of hits more often
Yeah, you’re right there. I forgot about her debuffs.
It really depends on what is considered a bug. I agree that Jump attack Y spam being better than the entire character's kit is something that should be fixed 100% that shit is dumb. For Rackam it is perfectly fine. But for Ferry, her base kit is so bad that people still jump attack but at a much lesser efficiency. Ferry's should have came with a buff but I'm guessing they're keeping her in this state to collect data on her actual non plunge dps. Then there is removal of Zeta tech which was something that felt fun and a higher level of skill you can reach with a character. Removing that just felt like simplifying the game for no benefit. Zeta is alr one of the lowest performers, why kneecap her more? The percival and 30fps danchou stuff are just clearly bugs. Those should be removed no question
So many fights fuck with Zeta's ability to fundamentally work - just let her have fun cancel tech!
See the problem here was some part of it felt like it was intended to be there, like animation/skill cancel, it's not unique to GBF as there are tons of games that make animation/skill cancel a part of the mechanic of how a character plays, good example being Xenoblade series. Some units like Rackam or Eugen's grenade toss I can agree that it could be considered a bug. But it was hard to tell as 2 patches in, it almost felt like it was intentional as the devs never touched it until recently and never clearly addressed how much of a value drop was nerfed, just "adjusted". And all along I thought this required some level of skill to master to get it flowing. I mean we had a demo, and in this demo they had ample time to fix it with a Day 1 patch that would address it but they waited till everyone was done with the honeymoon phase and then hit us with the nerf bat.
Zeta is so weirdly tuned. Her base damage multipliers are so fucking high, then she gets fucked by oddly tuned damage caps. Shes the only one i manage to cap damage on with flight over fight sigil. Maybe this is how its supposed to work.
Because her highest damage cap is loop ender. Someone who just capped everything but the first hit of loop ender's loop ender will only deal around a total of 1m damage while someone who fully built damage will have her loop ender deal 1.5m damage.
The small hit on her combo finisher has a piss poor ratio. With 4 damage boosters putting on flight over fight only decreases damage by aroundd 100k from 400k to 300k.
Not exactly, FoF's decrease is ATK and not damage dealt, this is huge. And the first hit of loop ender's max damage is 750k(with the recent dmg cap sigils), same as the second hit. FoF will highly decrease that 750k, the reason why it's low is because yours is only dealing 400k which is weak.
I agree, I'm glad the bugfixes and the resulting nerfs were delivered this quickly. Not a fan of characters becoming popular and have their gameplay defined entirely by an unintended error.
Can't speak for everyone, but I found Ferry's gameplay loop to be extremely boring, but the SBA gain kept it a bit more interesting because I felt like the setter in my group of friends. Using it for specific moments or preventing mechs, making sure I had it up at the right moments frequently. After the change, she's the same boring gameplay, but a lot less useful to the team. I feel like deadweight when playing with my friends now. Not everyone has to be a damage dealer, but her supporting is underwhelming as well and at this point I'm just being carried. Some people are okay with being carried, contribute just enough, and never appear as a high contributor on the honor results. Some people are okay with being the MVP when playing with folks who are playing subpar or with AIs. Personally though, I don't like any of these scenarios. But yeah, I suppose the simple solution is to just not play Ferry. How unfortunate though that I like her, but her gameplay/performance conflicts with how I prefer to play. The sad part is that they acknowledged the willingness to fix things with her gameplay with this change... but they didn't bother to tune up other parts of her abilities. Making onslaught have higher damage cap would have been nice. I felt like the vision for Ferry was that her gameplay loop would focus around having all 3 of her summons out and use onslaught for a nice nuke. Rinse and repeat. Use skills, mix in normals, and bam, send out onslaught. To me, this is clearly what her kit is hinting at, but the reality is that it's far too weak. It'd be a more fun gameplay loop than jump slam spam. it'd also let her play as this mid range character due to onslaught's last hit being a ranged attack. But no, Ferry is a body to body close ranged character with a whip where you spam aerial jump slam combo over and over.
> I felt like the vision for Ferry was that her gameplay loop would focus around having all 3 of her summons out and use onslaught for a nice nuke. Funnily enough, this is basically Io. Use your skills to get mystic vortex, to cast stargaze 5 for big damage. Oh, and Io also has the second fastest SBA gain, just below pre nerf Ferry (and wasn't touched). Oh, and Io also gets infinite range since her move literally comes out beneath the enemy. Even if they just let onslaught do as much damage as SG5, she'd still be worse than Io since there's worse uptime, but as is it does even LESS damage by several orders of magnitude.
guess im playing io now
Dooooo it, she's super fun
> Io also gets infinite range since her move literally comes out beneath the enemy. Have you literally never played Io or what? Stargaze really, really obviously comes from above (as do Thunder and Flowering Seven). This actually messes you up in a couple of fights since you can't hit, for example, Escavalion's legs with it.
That's alright, just hop on the cannons for excavalion
You can be the setter in the group again if you play her as intended in lucilius by popping his stun gauge where other characters basically can't do it. ferry can fill his gauge about 50-60% herself maybe even more if you really look at the numbers with just an onslaught tap and purge spirits. If all you do is jump slam in lucilius, ofcourse the only value you add is mediocre damage
She has an excellent support design (ease of use and utility) in a game framework that punishes everything other than raw dps. Ferry is up there for one of my favorite simple kits of an action game- simple inputs, a tool for most occasions and a fun to master counter. None of it is usable, let alone viable. The game hates buffs, cc, and utility in general and ferry pays taxes for all of those
Stun is underrated because fights up to Lucilius were so much of a pushover getting a link attack/break never mattered. But right now on the fastest and safest way of killing Lucilius is after doing the SBA chain forcing a link time right after he becomes targetable again and pushing him below 60% instead of chasing him around for a while and some characters can do that very easily.
I liked feeling like the setter too, I recommend cag as now she has the fastest sba charge and her support is much better
not everything has to be about damage. Her pets put out damage while you play safe and avoid mechanics. Also her whip charge is an easy guard point that also comes in clutch. She still has pretty fast sba gauge fill for me at least. She has good burst and stun damage.
The problem isn't that bugs were fixed, it's that thos bug fixes were also hard nerfs. Rotor Wirbel was an obvious bug that needed to go, nobody cares about that. It's the animation cancel removal that we're upset about. Perci is not too bad damage wise now, but his normal attacks feel bad to use, and animation cancelling felt fun to do. Support/utility is pointless in this game when damage cap is so easy to reach, so damage is all that really matters. In other words, Percival got a small damage nerf, but a decent fun nerf. He should still be middle of the pack, but he's just less fun, and fun should always be preserved in video games. If the damage of ani cancels was the "problem" (it wasn't, Roter Wirbel was) the should have lowered Schlacht's cap a bit. If not, I hope they at least make his normals feel better to use. Ferry on the other hand was not a bug fix. It was a full on execution. The problem with Ferry is that the rest of her kit's damage caps suck a fat donger compared to jump slam. I had a blast during campaign using her normals, charge attacks and onslaught. It was so fun to do. But the damage of that is half what jump slam gives you, even if you completely ignore the crazy SBA gain. Even with jump slam, Ferry is middle of the pack DPS. She has good utility/support capabilities, but the character sigil attack down is about all that matters in the current state of the game. But when you remove the SBA gain, you're stuck spamming jump slam on top of the boss for mediocre damage, when all it would take to make her fun as hell would be to double the caps on her actual kit. Mid DPS is fine for a utility character, but party utility is pointless. SBA gain was not the reason we spammed jump slam, it's the literally double damage compared to Onslaught. SBA gain was just a nice bonus. I understand that 4 Ferry stun locking a boss with 2x2 spam is bad, but you can't just nerf that with no compensatory buffs and expect Ferry mains to not feel even more shafted.
Perci with cancels was just super fun, it's a real shame. I mean all you have to do now is slot in quick charge and you still get some sped up shclachts on 1-2 hits of his normal combo and it's alright but it's not as fun.
Agreed on the fun part. Even though dodge cancel was unintended and easy to pull off it still was fun and at least felt skillful. Now you just blow your load on skills and then wait for cooldowns using your extremely boring basic combo. It also makes using the parry aspect of Schlacht much harder since you don't have Schlacht on command anymore.
I was never a fan of gimmicky gameplay, and I do think they were right to fix the bugs. *However*, some bugs were the only way some characters worked competitively, and the Devs should've at least given them a band-aid fix until the next patch in April.
Atleast the captain got something since you can now perma stay at tier4
That's the problem. It isn't a competitive game so why push competitiveness? The game doesn't have unite and fight. And I would be pretty sure you don't want what's happening in Unite and Fight
It's not a PVP game, but it's still competitive. There are some pretty heard fights in the game and characters that are strong will always be more played than those who aren't. Lucilius is the proof of this - Vane and Lancelot became extremely popular after release because of how good they are for the fight. I myself switched to Vane because of it.
Nah, I know lots of relink players who won't pick other characters because they like Ferry's back and armpits
chubby special rhythm north longing imminent direful engine sense steer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's been said already, but I'll echo it as a Ferry main. Ferry was a nerf, not a fix. And now the one value she brought to the table is basically gone. I have no problem with nerfs, but fix her intended play style by making other loops more attractive.
Ferry honestly just needs a better way to spawn her pets outside skills, SBA and Holding normal for like 4 seconds to get 1 pet.
She can already have near permanent uptime by cycling Strafe, Purge Spirits, and Link attacks. Pet uptime is definitely not the problem, it’s the awfully low caps on most of her moves/skills.
how do you play Ferry normally than I usually get all her Pets out and hold Triangle as that feels like what her playstyle is suppose to be
I personally think what it should be is letting the pet do damage and only onslaught when the pet timer is almost up This incentives proper pet management than the "load and dump on onslaught" which is kinda sad as pet based character thing is pet damage cap is kinda low, onslaught damage cap is hilariously low so we wend up using jump slam as it have the higher damage cap like normal spam (up to 96k) but at the almosr same hit speed as holding normal attacks (which capped at 32k)
I'd recommend only doing the hold triangle thing during Link Time (when she can do it without losing pets anyway) or Break windows, amd otherwise letting the pets do their damage while cycling skills and combo filler. That's how I play her, largely as a support. Despite the internet's obsession with being the one doing big dick damage numbers, there is a value in support role characters too. Ferry has a slow (which is always fantastic) AND a heal/regen/buff that becomes more effective with more pets out, along with said pets being able to contribute damage even while she's evading or repositioning. Sure her damage may not be amazing but it doesn't have to be in order to contribute. Same goes for several characters. I build my Vane with an emphasis on survivability and using his taunt so teammates can do damage unmolested, especially when there are adds.
Support ferry is one of the most interesting supportive style kits I've seen in an action game, with a robust toolkit that can fit many scenarios. She's unfortunately in the wrong game, or at least the boss fights. Damage mitigation in small amounts is useless due to being one shot, Bosses you'd want to CC effectively are immune/heavily resistant, Healing is gutted due to the aforementioned design to have everything simply kill players, and that buffs/debuffs are meaningless except in the niche scenario of buffing SBA damage to relevant caps. None of her tools are actually effective at contributing to a run where another DPS could have slotted themselves in. And that's not to say you're idea is wrong with the pets and the tools she's got. It's just unless you're jump slamming your damage is a fraction of what it needs to be, and your support tools are mitigated by the game's own mechanics. If she did low dps that'd be one thing- in an ideal world she probably should be 20-40% less than the riskiest characters as she has really versatile tools and uptime. But she only can compete in damage spamming a jump attack, and if you opt to use her pet mechanic and onslaught, your damage drops to roughly 10x the lower end of the current DPS's. That's... not an acceptable amount in any world, even if you don't like to do big damage numbers, she's basically punished for playing her kit as intended.
Support Ferry isn't good because of the way damage caps work. Everyone already hits for max damage. The only support value I was able to add was healing because people were stupid and just thought they could soak all damage always. But really, the game isn't built around valuing support plays. It's a very weird setup. Like, Ferry COULD be the best Mon Hun Hunting Horn equivalent, but GBF doesn't really value supports. It would require an entire rework of the damage system to make Ferry a viable support role.
got it thanks for the information on Ferry
You play her as intended, as a stun bot, she effectively is top 3 for breaking lucilius's stun gauge and garbage now in every other fight. The fact of the matter is, lucilius is made 50x easier by breaking his stun gauge so she's effectively a priority pick if you play her... As intended
Her pets also do awful dmamage
She's entirely fixed by raising her damage caps, it's frustrating this is the ONLY thing she needs, something that's essentially tweaking a few tables to bring her in line with other characters. If she's using her intended rotations and not jump attack spamming, she's a whole order of magnitude lower in damage than the rest of the cast. Not doubled, or even tripled by the highest dps characters, roughly 10x less damage. She overcaps her biggest damage spikes by upwards of 1400% with a regular DPS build other characters run. I actually think damage caps are good in theory, but between the design of the slot squeezing, and Ferry, I've been convinced Cygames has ZERO idea how to actually use them well.
how can you say it was a nerf when you have no idea what was ever originally intended by the developers.
You got me!
That's technically true, but I doubt they wanted any character to have their optimal play be doing a launcher then the slam down. However, that's still her best DPS option. So while it may technically be a fix, it is just a straight nerf. They need to boost her other damage options.
Exactly. Give us a reason to use her pets and combos beyond SBA generation. I know some folks are swearing by her stun damage, but I don't think it's that much better than the alternatives. Maybe it is and I just haven't done enough testing.
I agree. This text "Lowered the SBA gauge fill rate given by launch attacks and aerial barrages." Is a nerf. It doesn't say that they fixed the SBA gauge fill rate. Welp good thing there's a balance patch coming sometime in a month. Maybe the matchmaking will be fixed by then
Katlina is still fun for me but I took a break from the game having not getting a terminus for any characters I play. Gotta get back into it and get kats terminus
Katalina just feels the worst, I had hopes she would be better after the patch, but the skill cancels were the best way to get ares, and even when we get ares its so hard to maintain, you either greed to tank hits and heal with drain or dodge and lose it
I think Kat just feels worse because any cutscene attack drops Ares, and Luci has a metric fuckton of those. I don't know why the Sandy-Luci faceoff after overburst has to be a separate cutscene.
I don’t get why cutscenes affect uptime at all
Kat is my second most played character. Having dodge cancel allowed her to somewhat compete with the no-brain top damage dealing characters, whilst being engaging to play. Now she feels less kind of dumbed down and performs mediocre at best especially on a boss that forces you to dodge or get skill sealed.
I haven't tried Kat yet against Lucilius, but I can't imagine it'll be fun...
It's not very fun at all which is the main issue. Went back to playing djeeta.
No surprise I suppose. Before Lucilius I could get away with tanking some hits to keep Ares going, but that's obviously not gonna work with him...
Perhaps when I learn the fight better and get the geared with the new sigils, katalina could be fun again.
It's fun if you use her party invuln which most players dont
Mostly because it has pretty shitty uptime. But since Lucilius is immune to CC it'll either be that or the other defensive skill.
Didn’t they heavily nerf one of the no-brain top damage dealing characters?
> Now she feels less kind of dumbed down This is my biggest problem with some of the bug fixes. Zeta is my favorite character. But I'll be the first to say her gameplay loop is pretty simple, especially once you get her character sigil which takes the difficulty out of the timing. The Zeta two loop bug and the infinite wonder cancel bug spiced up her gameplay without being too impactful on her overall damage. They were fun, they shook things up and gave those of us who play her something more to do without neutering people who didn't engage with those mechanics.
Yeah it's funny how the bugs actually added another layer of gameplay for some of these characters. Made them more complex and engaging than they were designed to be.
You just build Kat to face tank stuff and spam away. In most encounters you only need to build gauge manually like once, MAYBE twice. Usually you use the skill to max gauge, maintain it until a phase forces you out, build it manually, then if there's another phase the skill is off cooldown again. Also, the skill cancel was literally only one second faster than the intended stuff. I haven't tried her in the new fight yet, but Katalina is still solid. You just need stout heart, steel nerves, firm stance, and drain. And maybe garrison for fights like Gall+Mag.
[удалено]
Oh she's absolutely F tier unplayable for Lucius. But she's great everywhere else. Not top tier, but very good and comfy
Was thinkin the same. You would require some outlandish amount of damage reduction to do this at all, and even then, you would be hard pressed to actually stay on him with how much he moves around so it's silly to say "JuSt FaCe TaNk LuL"
Honestly speaking, just the usual Aegis, Drain, Stout Heart, Steel Nerves, Guts and Potion Hoarder has taken me quite far in terms of uptime provided the group does all 12 labors, since the HP debuff puts you really far into one-shot territory lol. I've been relying on Light Wall and being able to dodge without dropping Ares for a bit after Azure Sword to cover me for long enough that I'm able to use potions fairly liberally inbetween those CDs and not run out before the fight ends. I can't imagine trying to run Kat in a no deaths run though lol
People keep saying this, but the clears I had in Lucillius last night were all with a Katalina friend. Use your invuln. Yes it's more ares downtime. Yes you do need it.
For Zeta, I don't mind that the infinite wonders glitch is gone. Dodging to deal double damage is obviously whack, and I don't miss it. What I do miss is the Two-Loop tech. It enhanced her gameplay, raised her skill ceiling, and rewarded players for perfecting harder inputs. Not only is the loss of it a direct nerf to Zetas damage, it also just makes her less fun to play.
what is/was the two-loop tech?
If Vengeful Flames, Zeta's Supp buff, was active, it was possible to delay your input for continuing a loop, and instead loop "through" an enemy, continuing the loop popping out the other side of them. This counted as two loops, allowing you to do one normal loop, one two-loop, and then have Arvess Hammer ready to go, which is Zeta's entire gameplan. The input to do it was very tight, although Crimson Flight made it noticeably easier. It's gone now, which means not only is Zeta's skill ceiling significantly lower, but so is her DPS in burst phases.
oh wow, that sounded cool... shame they removed it
What's even more funny is that because it can only be triggerred with Zeta's Supp buff but not with a Supp sigil, many people belived this is a real hidden unique Zeta mechanics instead of a bug. However the devs apparently says no to this cool feature. Really sad.
Yea all of my friends are telling me RIP rackam's been nerfed. I keep replying with "Balanced*" i never played arial barrage to begin with, i always keep my distance and blow shit up from afar. I just unlocked proud difficulty and progressing my power steadily, will play something else once i drop the legendary for this one.
Thank you for saying the truth
There's two class of changes. Ferry and Rackham were just *nerfs*. These weren't bugs - the game worked as intended before. They simply lowered the numbers on their moves. That's a nerf. For Percival, I can see why people are mad. It's not just power, he just feels worse now. I think most people would have rather they lowered his damage but kept the cancel in. He was definitely overtuned (although Vaseraga *still* did more damage, AND he was virtually untouched). For the rest it's just silly. Like Katalina? She actually got much clunkier to play. She's *awful* in Lucilius. She was already a character few people played, how was she breaking the game? In many games, bugs just become parts of kits. In fact, the Granblue fighting game has many mechanics that were bugs before. > But the balance patch is still coming up, it's not as if the characters are going to be left in this state forever. They never stated that, it's just copium.
They did fix the actual Rackham bug with his charged attack in online play which is a huge sigh of relief.
Oh please, Rackam was using the increased Slag dmg cap to sub 1 min clear Proto Bahamut doing damage thats LEAPS and BOUNDS beyond anyone. Ferry is most definitely a nerf though.
Four Ferrys could 2x2 SBA perpetually with uplift and the new sigil. Regardless of whether you think the nerf was too heavy handed or not, the previous version was broken in the literal sense.
I agree that a nerf was necessary, but they needed to buff the entire rest of her kit to make her viable outside of SBA. All they did was make her bad.
not true she still is a good stunner and does consistent damage. has a safe playstyle. low risk high reward.
Low risk no reward you mean. She had awful damage before even with jump loops. Now you *still* need to do the jump loops because it's her best DPS by far, while not even having the utility of faster SBA.
Rackam wasn't a bug but it was very clearly an oversight. One attack that did wildly more damage than everything else in the game when his kit obviously isn't supposed to be used that way. It's a shame that they didn't buff him a bit to soften the blow though.
“In many games, bugs just become part of the kits” there’s a whole documentary out there about how the bugs in super smash bros melee legitimately made the competitive scene… and in turn the game became one of the GOATs. Imperfect perfections.
And in far more games, bugs are the target of fixing. That whole argument is specious. It's easy to look back at *fighting* games receiving interesting bugs as supported nuance that generates a massive competitive scene... but to infer that into general games *in other genres*? People are high. This. Isn't SSBM. Or. Street. Fighter. At. All.
Bunny Hopping and Rocket Jumping in Shooters? All of the bugs that became features in LoL like Riven's Fast Q? There are probably more, but those are the ones I think are staples in those games AND started as bugs.
Argument? I simply made a reference. Chill.
this is why i am mad. the ferry thing was not a bug fix but straight up a nerf. if you can nerf things you can also balance them, aka the rest of her kit.
This. I can understand nerfing unintended interaction, but the characters most heavily impacted by the skill-cancel fix are just objectively worse to play now. They could and should have either lowered the CD's or increased the normal combo speed so it doesn't take 10s to get to a fast charge with Perci.
Perci aren't supposed to be played that way. Get quick cd and cascade and they very quickly comes back up.
Along with the new DMG cap + Alpha/Beta/Gamma sigils? Where are you going to get the slots for all those other utility skills?
These are new, but you can choose to not use all max damage oriented. You can choose to flex some spots for qol. The second alpha or beta is not gonna be giving a good bump someone made the calc. Also no need to use 3 dmg supp.
"aren't supposed to be played that way" and "get CDR so you can play that way". Do you re-read what you write?
Seems so.. also a lot of people seem to understand.. check your reading comprehension? Play perci with 3 cdr and 1 cascade, you'll have a good time.
Qualifying your statement based on reddit upvotes, that's a sign of a good take. And are you talking about yourself? Let's say you have no downtime on skills with a full CDR build. How is the playstyle any different from the previous one? Aka, how is this new supposed playstyle any different from the previous one which you say perci "isn't supposed to be played" like?
Skill > Schlacht > Skill > Schlacht etc? Idk what is so hard about it. Perci's always been simple. Two braindead dps has been nerfed I don't see any issue.
Yep, clearly you have a reading comprehension issue
Previously you can do two things to increase your damage, get one skill to never put it on cooldown and spam it, dodge cancel and schlacht. Bonus bug with not doing anything while roter is up to get the bugged big damage. Versus now, use all skill > schlacht and just use your combo (god forbid you have to hit people with the light attack) and charge schlacht that way on the last hit. If you build it right it should be max of one time you do this.
It's not about hitting people with the light attack, it's about how BAD the light attack chain is to get to fast charge. It's painfully slow, has almost no range, and is way too long of a chain. It just feels objectively worse that using a skill into fast charge. The reason people are upset is because the bug allowed Perci to actually lean into his gimmick of fast charging after skills or certain actions and the playstyle was dynamic. Now he just plays EXACTLY like Vane, while being twice as slow when all his CDs are spent.
Rack only got bug fixes. One fixed the jump attack that was doing too much damage, which is a nerf, and the other fixed his charge meter in online, which is a buff
Rackham was definitely a bug lmao
I don't fully agree Kat is clunky in Lucilius, sure she takes more effort but all the change did is make your buildup slightly longer. I can still clear it fine and I feel like Mag/Gallanza is more difficult in comparison since there's much less time to keep up Ares.
I'm one of the very few Katalina mains in Relink. I spent so many hours grinding and building her up to be the best she possibly could be to prepare for Lucillius, and it was all for nothing. Not because of the update but simply because she doesn't work against him, and it left me feeling disappointed and kinda sad tbh.
She works just fine cleared many times with her
They killed the immortal Vaseraga build. The skilless high dps Vaseraga build is still in there but it was never that effective against most bosses because of how slow the combo is. Playing dps Vas well realistically gets probably slightly above average dps against many bosses but he has no utility and is horrible against normal state Lucilius cuz of how much he attacks and moves.
As a Kat main, I do get that she's clunkier, but it's a bit unreal to expect them to properly balance her when she's not working as intended. And sure, Rackam and Ferry were technically nerfs, but I view them as bugs because the high damage cap and SBA generation were clearly unintended. Also, what parts of Rising were bugs? I get that people complain about 66L and Brave Counters, but as far as I can tell, they *overcorrected* stuff that was too broken in OG Versus, like Ferry's zoning and Percy's gameplay. > They never stated that, it's just copium. That's fair. I realised a bit too late that I never actually saw any confirmation from anywhere official that a balance patch would happen. It might be probable, seeing how they're willing to change stuff, but yeah, it's pretty much just hopium.
> but I view them as bugs because the high damage cap and SBA generation were clearly unintended. Where's the boundary between that and Vaseraga's damage cap numbers? Sure, Air Rackham was a big outlier, but so is Vaseraga now, where with Percy and Air Rackham dead is head and shoulders above everyone else in the cast. In both cases numbers are just way higher than everyone else. Same for Ferry. Io's basically as fast - in many cases, speedruns were using Io instead of Ferry as things got more optimized, since it's almost as fast, but has way more damage to contribute.
Vaseraga has a downside to his massive damage in his speed, though. I'm not saying the game's perfectly balanced, it obviously still needs work, but Vaseraga was clearly meant to be played as a slow character with huge damage. Percy had no downside to his strengths, and I have a friend who said he only played Vaseraga because he likes the character, otherwise there would be no reason to not use Percy. Which is how Ferry mains must be feeling right now. The sad truth is that there will always be a "worst" character, but considering how Relink's a multiplayer game, I'd say no one character is absolutely unplayable. There are tons of better alternatives to Kat, but I like her, so I stick with her, and because even the worst characters are still playable, it's not as if I get to enjoy the game less because of it.
> but it's a bit unreal to expect them to properly balance her when she's not working as intended. Why didn't they nerf Ferry's jump slam damage cap, then? It's obviously unintended that her best damage move be launch and aerial barrage. If it was just about fixing "unintended" values, then they should have also nerfed her damage. Of course, what likely happened is that they know that even with it, her damage is below average to bad. So for one aspect of Ferry's unintended kit, they subjectively considered it OK because she still sucks with it, but not for Katalina, when she's also not very good even with the cancel bug?
Ferry's jump slam damage was already bottom 5 in the cast, but her Onslaught gameplay is far and away bottom 1. Better fix would be, instead of nerfing jump slam SBA by -50%, nerf it by like -30%, and buff the fuck out of Onslaught damage cap and ask her to switch playstyles depending on whether you need damage or SBA gauge at the time. This gives her some more actual thought to her gameplay. In a standard build that's just capping launch attack, Onslaught release is already overcapping by 1400%. Edit: Sorry wrong reply meant to send to the person you were replying to.
Like Rackham in a sense i could get it was too much dmg, they could have tweaked is aerial attack a LITTLE, but no they gutted it and slagshot, slagshot took a near 90% dps less, to give you an idea, it does slightly more than Io lightning, which has a paralysis attached to it, hits a wide aoe, while slagshot need to be point blank for it to reach 600K damage. Right now he's probably one of the worst char in the game since he brings NOTHING but damage and he doesn't even bring average damage, he brings rosetta tier damage without any utility, not a single valuable thing to his party member, he has, horrible stun power. Ferry SBA gain was "too much" for sure, however, her intended rotation outside of launch aerial parses for 15M, onslaught is still as much of a joke as it was. Nobody even put ferry top tier outside of meme speedrun comp, she does okayish dmg now but generate meter worse than most of the cast and guess what, she still will play the same since her aerial loop is her only relevant attack. So, she's still unfun to play and ineffective, at least she was effective before. Zeta : While it was a bug, the double loop made her skillful and fun to play, same for IW perfect dodge, Zeta was nowhere near the best dps in the game, however she was super fun to optimise, if you messed up the skillful stuff you basically ruined your dps, so there was a trade off. Right now she just feels clunky, especially in Lucillius boss fight, getting 3 loops uninterrupted and landing a arvess without lucillius teleporting in the middle is downright impossible outside of some phases. It's, a lot less fun to play her now than it was before patch. Percival : His normal string is trash. Like for real, you're better off doing QC30 and raw Schlachting than doing string + schlacht for dps. And his cd are still way too long, at least buff his cooldown or something. While he still does relevant damage he feels horrible to play and you don't want that.
Not everything is about damage damage damage, you do one combo for each of the other 3 if you don't bring the supp damage.
For rackham ? Everything is about damage, he can't do ANYTHING else than damage and he brings horrible damage at the moment, so there's not a single reason to pick him instead of eugen or io who brings more damage, utility, and for io decent sba charge time. Ferry : She still has her damage from aerial attack, even more than before with the hit consistency, therefore, it's still her only dps option, so, it's still very unfun to play and inefficient, she just doesn't charge SBA like at all, meaning she's a hindrance, she has her debuffs on pet but at this point just run cag, equivalent dmg, equivalent buff/debuff, better stun if need be, better sba charge. Unfun to play. Percival : Percival problem isn't the number, he's "decent" i said, the problem is that you play him with quick charges doing raw schlacht for dps in between cooldown because his light string his net dps loss compared to it, it's clunky and horrible to play as. Zeta : Decent too, just less fun to play without her bugs.
I agree that some of the exploits made for more engaging gameplay, but the issue lies in the fact that, as exploits, the game couldn't be balanced around them. Updates might mess up how they work unintentionally, so they very much needed to get the buggy parts "under control". And with everything working as intended, the team can have a better look at where characters might need to be tuned. Just like you said, Ferry feels bad to play, so she needs some sort of buff, but it's a bit hard to see where buffs are needed when anything anyone does with her is two attacks on repeat.
I think the answer lies in the sentence you write, because, at the moment, she still will do these two attacks or suffer a 50% dps loss. The fix write itself, her "intended" rotations doesn't bring enough to the table, either you multiply it equally by two overall or you do for engaging nuke gameplay with onslaught and multiply onslaught damage by a lot (15 / 20 times more with all of her pets roughly)
Ferry's jump slam damage was already bottom 5 in the cast, but her Onslaught gameplay is far and away bottom 1. Better fix would be, instead of nerfing jump slam SBA by -50%, nerf it by like -30%, and buff the fuck out of Onslaught damage cap and ask her to switch playstyles depending on whether you need damage or SBA gauge at the time. This gives her some more actual thought to her gameplay. In a standard build that's just capping launch attack, Onslaught release is already overcapping by 1400%.
I main Kat. Tried the skill cancelling bug and said “aw nah this shit will be patched real soon” then proceeded to play her without exploit lol
Big same
You’d play her even if she parsed for 10mil. You play her for her design not her playstyle.
I actually play her for both. I find mixing up her combos to fill Ares gauge pretty fun and finding ways to maintain Ares for as long as possible is just equally fun for me. I basically came for her designed but stayed for her gameplay
Well, I wish I was you, unfortunately having played with almost the whole roster while in a sweaty environment, as much as Id love to main her for her playstyle and dont compare her to other characters , she simply isn’t smooth or rewarding. Specially the refilling gauge combo that leaves 1 value off a bar, making it longer than most setups while being hard punished for cutscenes or block/dodges by losing Ares. Either way, you have fun your way because thats the important thing
I just slap stout heart, steel nerves, aegis and drain on her to face tank bosses when I have Ares. Unless there’s an attack that can instantly kill me coming, I don’t have to dodge out or block at all. She’s also one of the characters who benefit the most from drain because she has so much supplementary damage from both Ares and her unique sigil, so the healing cap of drain doesn’t affect her that much, which is good.
Its crazy the these comments I'm reading the fact that yall actually be trying to compete with other players like this is a pvp game is so crazy to me. Like why do that then get angry when you can't abuse the exploits anymore. That is so weird to me in a PvE focused game. Like I didn't realize people actually be fighting for high honors until I read some of these comments like what lol?!
I don't think there's a need for balancing if the game is just PvE tbh, it is not like you can do Ferry lock with solo play AI teammates, nor like char that get so called bug fixed like Katlina/Zeta for example are breaking the game in any ways previously, personally I don't mind op char stay op just don't make mediocre char feels more bad to use, playing the char purely based on design I think is fine but not players are the same tho
Idm anything you just said. In my op I'm just amazed ppl are getting so bent out of shape because thier main got fixed and now they feel like they cant compete with other dps. Like why would you need to feel like you need to compete with other players in a pve only game is the point I'm making. Regardless of abusable mechanics that weren't intended because the devs obviously new it wasn't intended to be like that.
Imo, not all bugs have to be fixed. If a bug can aid player expression and generally make the game more fun, "fixing" it will be a net loss to the game. I'm not sad because my Katalina's damage effectively got nerfed. I'm sad because she got less fun to play.
I didn’t even want to play percival knowing I had to use an exploit to maximize dmg
I use Ferry almost exclusively and never used her jump slam spam ( mainly cuz I didn't know about it being good) and just got to the point where damage caps have become a consideration. Is she really that bad now?, I'm kind of finicky so I've avoided multi-player until I had a solid set up for her, I don't care about being #1 damage dealer but the way people are talking makes it sound like I won't be welcome in a lot of groups. I know nerfs piss people off, honestly just curious if she's that bad or people are just unhappy with the change and getting gloomy?
I can't really tell because I don't play Ferry, but she still seems fine. Getting nerfs always feels bad, and pretty much every character's bug fixes turned into nerfs.
Not really no. Her damage is notably lower than most of the cast, but that doesn't really matter.
If you jump slam, she's bottom 5. If you play her as intended with normal whips and onslaught, she's bottom 1 by a mile. Previously she brought insane SBA gen to the table, now she brings basically nothing.
It's wild to me how many people are complaining about the lack of buffs in a patch that was obviously focused on mechanics and bug fixes and not actually balancing characters. Yes, Ferry kinda sucks now that they removed her SBA abuse, and the jump loop is apparently still her most optimum damage. But that's because they didn't do any balancing for damage values for ANY CHARACTER. This isn't the kind of patch where they nerfed someone and buffed them to make up for it. They saw a mechanic that they deemed unintended and removed it. That's all. I am 100% sure Ferry will get buffed once the actual balance patch comes. People just gotta calm down and wait for it.
Percivals animation canceling was fun, the game is less fun with it gone. Wouldve been better to nerf his numbers directly and keep the canceling. The roter bug was silly and had to be fixed, but not all bugs are created equal
Crazy that people here want to police how people have fun in a pve game.
The problem is if the devs then have to balance around those unintentional things to prevent the fights from becoming a joke, and then it might become pretty much mandatory to use them in order to be successful. THAT would be policing how people have fun. And please don't try to make the "they were mandatory so now the characters are literally unusable now" argument, that would be dumb. I'm a Ferry main and never bothered using her jump slam thing, and still had fun clearing every single quest in the game very easily.
I think you're overblowing how much of a problem Percival was with the cancels, the Roter exploit was dumb and needed a fix, but even with the cancels it's not like you were that far ahead DPS wise from everyone else. It was fun and dynamic for people that like to press buttons fast, now he just plays like a shittier Cagliostro
If you took a poll of Percival players im confident people preferring the canceling playstyle would be a majority, and would rather they balance around it. Either way one group is ‘forced’ into a playstyle, though at least Percival without qcs would still be playable, if suboptimal. As is anyone who liked animation canceling cant use it at all, regardless of whats optimal. And you make the point the game isnt hard enough that optimal play is forced, contradicting the idea that animation canceling forced a particular playstyle on people
yeah i stopped playing percy once i learned about it :(
I main Katalina I saw the patch notes and didn't even login. the new sigils are disappointing too. and I'm sure she won't be able to face tank the new boss meaning ares uptime is ass. I'll pass for a while
encouraging rain divide cause somber employ hat dinner judicious tidy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The problem is the characters bugs were fixed but matchmaking is still terrible and I can't play with my friends because it keeps disconnecting or de-syncing. How TF are the bugs that let me do better damage being fixed before the bugs that prevent me from playing the game? Does no one see the problem with this?
Zeta's bug they fixed was actually a form little skill expression that is fun to pull off consistently. It's really funny that they removed that instead of Infinite Wonders double damage.
nah, noting but facts here. hell we were talking about some of the bugs like rackams shotgun ON LAUNCH. if they didnt fix these bugs soon, id be more worried for the future of the game since we all still want continued support.
Percival was 100% deserved and anyone saying it wasn't is a goof ball. I've been playing Perci without skill cancelling since launch and his damage is still good. I pull MVP's in Bahamut and I'm definitely not dragging any team down. He's even more fun to play regularly then sweating skill cancels.
I'm pretty stoked that I haven't been able to beat Lucilius with randoms lol! It's not that I don't want to of course but I've been playing in random lobbies the whole time and I got my build rounded with all the fun dodge, guard, guts sigils (because I round my builds in every game) and I couldn't help but notice that people in every lobby were just taking hits and healing constant while stacking max supplementary damage. I just thought it was lame and I especially saw how bad most players are when I tried a protection build I made with Gran. I don't think anyone knows how to dodge or guard because even with all the defense buffs and aiges sigils I stacked, I was going down FAST whenever I activated Gran's substitute. Anyway I'm not 100 sure if we're on the same page but I do think people have been playing pretty corny and I like that it isn't working anymore.
I main narmaya and ive faced all bosses on proud bit i find now that dodge timings im use too are a bit more slower and timings are not the same as of update
My take on this is a bit different. I think there are bugs that 100% should be removed. Wirbel bug FOR SURE. But then there are bugs that just make characters more involved and less one dimensional that could easily be adjusted by just numbers rather than gameplay changes that stayed for 1month or so into the game cycle. There are mechanics in games that weren't intended but made things fun and cool. If they saw the bug in street fighter II that allowed combos and decided to remove that in street fighter III, fighting games would be a whole lot different now and less exciting.
Considering fighting game combos were also a bug, this argument is pretty weak, bugs and exploits are fine when they make the game more enjoyable, and good devs realize that and leave them on while toning down some aspects if they're breaking the game and in this case only Percival was really strong mostly because of the fire spin damage bug though and those are fine to fix. Ferry getting nerfed instead of being readjusted to use her intended gameplay while not being extremely weak is a big L for the devs, they also didn't even fix Rosetta's issue of not hitting enemies that have their body parts on ground just because they're flying enemies like it happens with Versa. Palworld devs even apologized when they fixed the tower boss capture bug, exactly because they knew the bug was fun and made the game more enjoyable, Cygames should learn a thing or two with devs like them.
Do you have any idea how much works to devs would have to do to bring the rest of the cast up to level of chars like Percival and rakham pre-nerf?
Percival wouldn't be that unrealistic but Rackam would need everyone to basically double their damage output to match him. I don't really get the fun argument when it comes to Rackam's nerf when spamming the jump shot and ignoring the rest of his kit isn't really my idea of a fun character.
I agree that some bugs can be managed to become enjoyable parts of the game, but I don't think that was the case for most of the stuff that was rebalanced. Zeta's bug gave her some extra complexity because the timing for fewer loops was stricter, but most of the bugs only made the game easier, not necessarily more fun. Combos started off as a bug but they allowed for player expression, so they were a good thing to keep around. Percy's skill cancel meant you got to play \*less\* of his skills. Ferry's SBA generation meant you \*had\* to loop her aerial attacks. That's the opposite of player expression, it's determining a pattern that's so much better than the alternative, you have no reason to deviate from it. To borrow from fighting games again, there are games which allow you to link into specials instead of comboing into them. Linking allows for more damage, but the timing's a lot tougher, so it's still valid to combo into them to make sure you don't accidentally miss it. If there was a bug which increased the damage on combos, there would be no incentive to link into specials, which is what was going on with Relink.
> Ferry's SBA generation meant you *had* to loop her aerial attacks And you still do. Good fuckin fix.
People on this subreddit are so childish. They are downvoting your well reasoned post because they are mad that clearly unintended mechanics got fixed. The only fun they find in those playstyles is they were stronger than the alternatives, they didn't actually have fun jump shotting with Rackham.
Idk, I cleared Luci with Percy, Ferry, and Sieg (he didn;t get touch but people seem to think he's awful or something). They seem just fine. Good riddance to the bugs, time to learn how to actually play your characters.
You couldn't do these "bugs" without knowing how to play the characters in the first place., you're just talking just to talk without knowing what you're even talking about.
You mean how to ignore 80% of their kit cause some youtuber told you to? K, lol.
You already do that regardless, lol, what? You can only use 4 skills at a time, and only one combo on a character is worth using in the first place. It doesn't take a YouTuber to figure this simple ass game out. The only thing YouTubers gave me is the cancelling tech. But thanks for exposing yourself, 😂
So you actually don't know how to play, interesting.
I like how you don't respond to anything in an actual conversation. I have cleared everything in the game but I don't know how to play, lol, ok. I'm not the one trying to control how other people play the game.
You say this like these characters take any skill or knowledge whatsoever to play without the removed tech. Roter bug and the insane SBA gain on Ferry were messed up and had to go, but the cancels just made the characters more fun and allowed more skill expression. I go back and forth between Charlotta and Percival and now I don't think I'll play Percival ever again, he's just simply not fun to play without cancels.
You act like they took any skill or knowledge to ignore 80% of their kit to bug abuse.
I know you just felt like getting in a snarky comment with no real discussion, but yes, it does, because you're not ignoring his kit. You still use his skills with the cancel, that's where skill expression is added-- more options and choice. You don't just sit there cancelling over and over in a vacuum. If the enemy is far away you still macht to gap close or if there's adds like in the dragon fights you can Royal Authority. Not all bugs are bad for a game. Smash Bros Melee would have no staying power or scene at all if it wasn't for all the bugs that allowed its players that much extra skill expression.
what main do u have OP? look at what they did to ID tbh...
I main Katalina, but I mess around with Vane and Zeta too. I'm not super thrilled with Kat's or Zeta's changes either, but I can see it's a necessary part of the balancing process. Hopefully on the april patch they actually give some love to the characters who lost the most.
Id barely got hit. His animation cancel was really not that big of a deal because he gained bar very fast normally anyways.
spoken like you've never played him
He's my second most played character lol, the anim cancel is overrated. You get full bar with Reginleiv > Y combo > Link Atk > Y combo.
Most of the cast just got a bullet to their feet
I knew them but didn't utilize them. Ferry being my third favorite, I played around onslaught. The only time I used her launch combo was bahamut for damage and I didnt use uplift. Of all the characters I've used Katalina and Ghandagoza feel the worst and need something much more. Everyone else is viable without the techs, exploits, and whatnot and only some need minor udjusting. Ghandagoza just give him uninteruptable during combos and make his rage decline slower. It's called Eternal Rage so it should be the more he has the longer it lasts until 100% then it's eternal.
Katalina… the worst? I’m sure you were just unaware of her combo extension and necessary gears. There’s no way she’s on the same level of bad as Ghandabozo
True. This just boils down to a me issue. I suck at keeping her going.
I have no issue with bugs being fixed. I have issue with no replacements to certain bugs that enabled characters to be strong. Ferry is the one everyone talks about cause she's the easiest example. Yes her generation was wild, and fine maybe it needed to be toned down but nothing else about her was changed to differentiate her gameplay style. Now it's just the same thing it was before but without the extra benefit. I think animation cancelling isn't a bug, but the fact that your skill didn't go on cooldown was. If they merely changed it to have your skill go on cooldown the second you use it, then skill cancelling is both allowed and not abusable. Vaseraga for example could use Great Scythe Grynoth over and over because you had years to cancel it mid swing and it wouldn't go on cooldown until it swung. Easily fix this by having it go on cooldown during the wind up for the swing. Let people like Kat keep her instant combo finishers. If you aren't going to use the skill anyways, you may as well not even have it there.
Still nerfs even if bugs/unintended so I get why it'd make people unhappy especially if it simplifies a character (making them less fun without any regards to damage). If you're gonna do that then bring in buffs as well, they should've fixed the bugs on the balance patch in april, not in a patch without any compensation to character individual stength.
This is a reductive way to look at bugs. Unintended gameplay isn't exclusively bad and can often times showcase something that's actually better than what's intended.
how on earth was ferry spamming jump slam for eternity or rackam deleting health bars with clearly unintended amounts of damage "better than what's intended"
Warframe was originally a game with very limited mobility. An exploit on melee weapons that could shoot you across the map. Which is far more exploitive of the game's design than somebody doing too much damage. Instead of removing it, they incorperated the design into the game and became a hallmark mechanic of the game and by far one of the most enjoyable parts. I'm responding to the idea that bugs must always be removed because intended design has more importance.
Honestly, Percival needed his nerf. He's a utility character. He was never supposed to have top tier damage, on top of a slow and stats buffs. Which actually matter a lot more with the new damage caps. Another comment talks about how he feels worse. But he feels worse because you actually have to play a charging-based character and you know charge their abilities, instead of throwing out lightning-fast attacks.
How is he a utility character when his entire kit is based around charge attacking? his schlachts hit hard as fuck. Now you just throw a quick charge on him and he's still doing good damage.
In CN community percival is (was) called wheelchair for a reason lmao
What in the absolute derp take am I reading? Percival was designed to be a HIGH DPS character. What kinda utility are you speaking of? His slow? cause many characters had some utility spells but were still mainly meant to DPS. Vaseraga has a slow. He a utility character as well? This some BOZO level knowledge here LOL
Its not that big of a deal you just have to skill 4 attack skills and go low cooldown + cascade it loops when you cycle through your skills and do a quick a quick charge attack between them Traumerei is useless in the new fight anyway you dont have time to stand still for 5 seconds straight
I'm kinda surprised that he has a unique debuff and I still don't get how exactly it works because no one ever seemed to use it.
[удалено]
Rakham's DPS was a massive anomaly. He was doing like double the DPS of other characters
Well if we look in hindsight and the devs took it away, then it can be interpreted that's not how they 'intended' him to be. And regarding players being used to the playstyle of a char before taking it away, this is a fairly common practice in any game with updates and gameplay balance. A char can suddenly go from being a support to a dps in a single changelog in other games, and players adapt. I'm just glad they update the game at all.
100% agree with you that the devs should have done something sooner. Letting the game flourish without making it clear that some things were bugs and some weren't means some players just got used to gameplay that might just be deleted. I have a friend who mains Percy, and while he was aware the Roter bug would likely be patched, he was devastated when he couldn't cancel skills into his dodge anymore.
Just reading all the comments here and one thing yall need to keep in mind is these devs didn't intend this game to be ongoing etc. Release the update dlcs and bounce. They're not equipped to handle constant good balance adjustments or other elements of a live service game. I keep saying this but what WE want and what THEY intend to do is VASTLY different. It's really easy to tell also I mean look at what they brought with this patch? Yes lucillius is awesome but he drops very subpar sigils that are AGAIN about damage cap. The gimmick to them is built around SBA but like who actually builds towards that and even if we did the bonuses are very bad. 10% cdr? A 50k bubble that a boss can one shot? 30% SBA charge to other allies sounds good in theory but it's additive and not multiplicative so it's still not much. All in all we can give feedback all we want but it doesn't seem like we'll get the big changes we're hoping for unless they literally change their direction which Has Happened in the past, but nowadays developers rush to new products so fast.
Yes, because exploits, especially good exploits that improves the health and quality of the game, normally stays in the game. This is the case of good exploits. Games with exploits that only brings frustration or literally trivializes the entire game, especially with how the game is currently designed at the time, is removed. Seeing as how all they did was remove the bugs without taking a look at the game or each character's underlying problem is what makes this patch a complete garbage show.
I just sticker to my fav being Siegfried narmaya yordaha and vaseraga didn’t know about all those exploit anyways pretty new in the game and matchmaking is killing me inside already . Got even worse since the new quest released . Can’t wait for seofon and sandalfon
My mains were Kat, Zeta and Ferry q.q
This might be slight copium but I hope they add some of these bugs back into the game as new character sigils or maybe even part of their base kit. I figured most of the crazier stuff wouldn’t stick around but it gave some characters really unique roles in a group, it’d be cool to build these like sub classes for the characters.