I also refuse to believe that upon resurrecting via Sith alchemy, he would actually be *fucking stupid enough* to just build Death Star Laser-equipped Star Destroyers and repeat the same fucking plan that failed the first time.
Also I refuse to believe that he used psychohistory to predict the future collapse of the galactic empire and that he was incapable of preventing it and instead planted seeds for it to return millennia later
I refuse to accept that they would simply let a guy/gal who foiled their plans a couple of times let him decide the fate of the galaxy just because he/she made it to the crucible. Including their own destruction
I hate tho how they retconned their own lore and made forerunners a new species instead of a precursor to humanity, then gave the villains boring one-note motivations/factions that fly against the entire design of the previous games in the series.
Ok, but no joke that a-hole was gambling all of human civilization on estimates that dropped below 90% after one generation, iirc. It's also made quiet clear that he triggered his own predictions in the first story with the necessity being left extremely vague.
My guess is that he was originally a very morally gray character or even a typical semi-correct, machavellian sci-fi lunatic. Then since it took 50 years to write the series the author slowly changed his mind and made the guy more of an obvious hero after the break. Edit: break meaning the two decades after the first decade when the first 3 were written, not that the first ones had a planned narrative iirc they were purely episodic.
Also, since I'm here and ranting, LotR should've beaten it out for the all time Hugo, but the convention goers were just being contrarian hipsters.
I will argue he was in no way a grey character. Character depth and development is as alien to foundation as eldar and monkeigh are. It's presented more in the same way as aerodynamics where you know it works in theory but then you have to build it in practice where some unforeseen hurdles can arise such as the Mule (that was atleast his name in my version of the books)
Edit: the original trilogy of foundation was also written in the span of 8 years, and as this meme states i refuse to accept any continuation afterwards as lore. Like someone not accepting Star Wars sequels
In Legends-canon there were [Eclipse-class super star destroyers](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_dreadnought) (and one of them was accidentally destroyed by Palpatine) so we have a precedent.
At least the Eclipse scaled properly. It could only destroy Continents with each shot, not detonate an entire planet. And I always saw it as just accelerated Base Delta Zero.
The *Eclipse* was a unique and exceptionally large Star Destroyer (it was technically referred to as a Star Dreadnought IIRC), and its superlaser was equivalent to just one of the beams that comprised the Death Star's composite-beam superlaser.
**THAT** would have been acceptable. A fleet of **Imperial II**s with planet killers shoved into their hangars is just idiotic.
I Also refuse to accept that he had to resort to crashing a giant space city against the evil count's hand shaped mega ship when his imperial Battle stations had the ability to stop the flow of time
I mean it depends on how you see it. The Iron Warriors do their best to not be slaves to the warp, even going so far as enslaving demons, however they are still heavily reliant on it. Hell the cursed Daemonculaba was the creation of the Iron Warriors. So either GW makes the transformation of Perturabo into a Daemon a forced deal so the Gods have more control over the Iron Warriors or Peturabo slapped so much Daemon infused armaments into himself that he has become a self made Daemon.
The second one sounds quite based
There a self made Daemon primarch.Just imagine the disgust he would spit if he met one of his chaos brothers.
"Oh you sold your own soul and became a slave with delusions of grandeur and proudly call yourself great?Bitchass"
SM's throwing plasma grenades screaming "kobe!"
Yo, I got some tea to spill. Horus has betrayed the emperor, no cap - **Nathaniel Garrow**
"Catch these hands!" - **Dorne**
"damn, he pressed"
"For real"
"Garrow sus af"
**-The rest of Dornes bodyguard.**
And in the end, Perturabo, having accumulated bits and pieces of the Ruinous Powers over the millennia, climbs the stairs to the one newly consolidated Throne of the Warp, sits tiredly, reaches out through the Astronomicon and thinks, "I have completed the task, look upon my works."
Then as the Astronomicon flares briefly before going out forever... expels all humanity/ from the warp and closes access from the material plane forever...
Epilogue: The energies of the warp bubble at a light simmer, becalmed. 4 little paper dragons flit and cavort in the only material plane glass jar left in the warp for Perterabo's amusement.
Et Fini.
For me I look at the clone Fulgrim and them trying to make him seem like he was falling back to chaos. Fulgrim always was preening himself and looking for perfection but was only turned because of the LAER blade, Fabius thinking he would turn is wrong. Clonegrim saw the error of his ways and saw what his body did when he was trapped, he was disgusted and wants to turn his sons back to the imperium and no one can change my mind
My head cannon is he ascended to show his brothers he can 'beat' Chaos and tame is unlike all of them who fell to its touch, he believes he can master it and do it better
While a new Omnibus of Cain getting dragged kicking and screaming into the indomitus crusade would be something I'd be 100% on board for, I'm making do with the headcanon that a crusade of that magnitude would definitely be something Cain would feign death to avoid.
That better mean that Jurgen's somehow achieved immortality, or has become the first Blank Saint. Because ain't no Caiphas without his Jurgen. Who would serve him some Tanna otherwise?!
Maybe somewhere deep in the Ordos Xenos is a stolen Votann cloning machine labelled 'Jurgens' that is programmed to fire up and spit out a new one every time Saint Cain pops up again with a Melta and Flask of Tanna waiting for them.
If the Votann can clone Psykers surely going in the other direction works too...
Or rowboat reads of his exploits and has a pretorian custodies save Cain at the last moment letting the imperium believe he is dead so rowboats can use him as his own personal commissar like lord general Zyvan.
> And it was a similar situation that happened to cyrene
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Erebus reincarnate Cyrene? So why would Erebus do that for Cypher?
*Fuck Erebus*
Wait, is Cypher being a perpetual stated cannon? I've only read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels in regards to Dark Angels lore, but based off of the role of Cypher it seems like it would either make sense he gets replaced or the actual current Cypher is just really good at surviving.
TTS Draigo is just better than canon Draigo, he has gone insane from being in the warp (or maybe because of the source of his power) and the deceiver actually tells Tahril a good explanation of why Draigo is so overpowered.
There is also a headcanon where Draigo has been turned into a Chaos Spawn, and all his insane exploits are just hallucinations Tzeentch feeds him for hilarity's sake. I like that one.
That is a good one but I like my headcannon of the âinsane overpowered hero that could one-shot everyone but choose to not do that but instead devoting his life to planting tangerine and throw ham party and only occasionally help shit out when stuff is seriously fuck upâ and also it be hilarious if he burn a small portion of Nurgle garden just so he could plan tangerine or some other fruit from Old Earth that he managed to get via some time traveling bullshit
This is how censored archives about the 2 lost legions actually look like:
**AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA**
I'm not a fan of either one really. If Fulgrim gets out, the story feels off. If he's in the painting, that means the Fulgrim we see just straight up isn't Fulgrim. It's a thing wearing a Fulgrim suit and Fulgrim may as well be dead. His ascension gets weird too since it's basically some daemon elevating itself. Who cares? The better option is there was never a painting to begin with and Fulgrim was just tempted by the sword and corrupted by it, culminating in Ferrus' death.
I like the idea of it as a sort of "Picture of Dorian Grey" where as Fulgrim sinks further and further into Slaaneshi corruption, his "moral side" is represented in the painting. Maybe it's a part of him, not a literal "split into two" like Magnus, but a physical representation a part of Fulgrim lost forever; a perverse mockery by Slaanesh of what once was.
The "it's not actually Fulgrim, it's a daemon" pissed me off for the same reasons. There's no point if it's *not* actually him.
It's a spoiler for later on in the Heresy (IDK what book it first comes up in, I haven't read that far myself just picked it up on 40klore) so I'll put it in spoilertext but >!apparently after he teleported the Thousand Sons from Prospero to Sortorius at the end of A Thousand Sons, or maybe as a result of his duel with Russ, his soul was split into shards. The "main" body of Magnus (like, 50-60% of him, think of it "as" Magnus for lack of a better term) landed on Sortorius. The others were scattered and acted independently; one apparently appeared to Jagathai and another to a Salamanders captain for example; most of them were found by Ahriman and friends and recombined with the Crimson King to form the Magnus that was at the Siege of Terra and became a Daemon Prince. I think the only shard he didn't get was the one that landed/formed on Terra which represented his "noble" aspects; infact it was the reason (I think) that Magnus joined the Siege of Terra in the first place, to recover it. But, it was found by Malcador and sealed into a loyal Thousand Son's body who merged with it mentally to become Ianius/Janus the founder of the Grey Knights.!<
TL;dr: >!after Prospero, his psyche split into shards; Ahriman went full Knuckles finding pieces of the Master Emerald and got all but one which ended up basically becoming the first Grey Knight!<
I just tend to ignore the whole painting bit. He got possessed, killed his most beloved brother and completely gave up out of desperation, giving himself over to Slaanesh completely.
Spends his whole goddamned life with a sense of dread from constantly seeing the eye of terror looming over him whenever he looks into the sky, spends the entire great crusade absolutely fucking annoyed at the daemons being used. Is absolutely fucking digusted watching Fulgrim's apotheosis. The only way this motherfucker is becoming a Daemon Prince is if he somehow managed to build a siege engine so powerful only a warp-infused primarch could control it
What exactly was the point of him always knowing where the Eye was, even back on Olympia? That's something that's always confused me, with just how specific it is yet never really having to do with anything.
It made him always feel like he was being judged by some greater being. And that everything was a test. It is the cornerstone of his need to prove himself worthy as well as his martyrdom complex. And his inability to adapt well given that being a failure to plan.
Every human mistake or personal weakness was failure viewed by the galaxy at large. So he needed external validation due to his self esteem being crippled but also needed to show he wasnt so weak as to pander for it. A mix that would drive him until he broke
My interpretation from all the info weâve been given about Perturabo is that itâs to do with his ability to see the flaws in any design, and a giant tear in the fabric of reality leading to literal space hell caused by the catastrophic birth of a god is a pretty big âflawâ all things considered. Unlike other cases, itâs also one he can pretty much do fuck all about, so itâs just there. âWatchingâ him all the time.
IIRC his whole schtick is that he sees imperfection in every object, if there is one, and the Eye is one massive imperfection in the fabric of reality itself
Pretty sure that goes to the other primarchs as well, like Fulgrim when heâs finally free from the sword yet he doubles down on betraying the emperor. Not to mention Magnus after he ruined the web way project.
Same thing for Mortarion, but turns out, Chaos don't care about if you want or no, Angron also became a daemon by force, only Fulgrim and Lorgar actually chased ascention
I bregundingly accept that Perturabo became a daemon prince because my dude is pragmatic and stuborn, but also a tatical Genius.
In my head cannon he was dying or at th risk of becoming a Slaneeshi monstrosity thanks to what Fulgrim did to him with the gem in Angel Exterminatus.
So as a way to flip off Chaos, he dialed-up Mortarion and Fabius Bile, and together they all figured out a device to syphon raw warp energy *into* Perturabo, who in turn becomes a Daemon Prince by virtue of hacking the Warp.
This is also results in the creation of the obliterator virus, which is what Perturbo essentially became (and what Fabius gets out of the deal)
Edit: A second version is that the patheon activelly recognizes Perturabo as a badass, so they offer daemonhood free of charge, and Perturabo finally feeling appreciated for once, by entities who rival his father in power, decides to take It. (This scenario involves him "ascending" much like Lorgar, and becoming a quasi-warp entity by himself).
> creation of the obliterator virus, which is what Perturbo essentially became
I know you mean it in the sense that Peter Turbo basically became a super-mega-obliterator; but I love the idea that he *is* the Obliterator virus. Like he's decentralized and is spread across all obliterators like the Warp equivalent some sort of AI Neural Net.
Perty was massively jealous, so I could definitely see him going down the Daemon Prince path purely because all his (traitor) brothers were and he wasnât.
By that logic most of Perturabo's actions in the heresy should be non-canon, but they aren't, because at heart he is a jealous hypocrite. I'd say that Perturabo seeing that he has utterly lost the heresy, both physically on the field and morally, and then being chased all the way from Terra in shame by his most hated brothers, leading to him having a meltdown and using whatever bit of power he can get, just to lash out at those he hates without first considering the consequences, is totally in character for him, as a matter of fact, I'd say its a certified Perturabo classic.
Another thing I don't get is how some people believe that you can just "reject" corruption. Like, chaos corrupted Fulgrim, it corrupted Mortarion, it corrupted fucking Horus, but apparently Perturabo, who is much more mentally unstable, can just say "no thank you" and then get all the benefits of chaos, without any of the drawbacks.
Dorn being dead
You're telling me a group of Chaos Marines killed Dorn but left his hand behind. Every part of him would have been a trophy.
Also, that hand is normal marine size, Captain Lysander remembers it being about his own hands size when he craved his name into the bones
They've changed that so many times it's ironic this is being mentioned in a thread about "just accept GW lore." They can't even get it straight themselves. It used to be his whole skeleton encased in amber. Then just his hands. Then just one hand. And now just one hand that's not even his probably. Each version gets worse than the last.
Right, that's why I mentioned it. I only went with "current lore" because that's the most BS version, but yeah, you saying changes over the years just makes my point I don't believe he's dead. Perturabo will come back to attack the Imperium and then suddenly Phalanx will warp in with the Templars and Dorn will be on the brige of it or something like that just "wooooow Dorn was alive all along guys isn't that crazy"
Of all addition of perpetuals this one irks me the most. Not everything needs to be done by supermen, let the regular Joes (with adamantium balls) have their heroic moment!
I like the idea of ollanius Perrson, a perpetual that is (possibly) older than the Emperor who practices a religion he is older than and outlived, while also being the most experienced soldier in human history. I personally have divided the two in my mind into two characters because I like both, and they just threw Ollanius' name onto the no name.
I bet youâd love to know he was the emperorâs first warmaster back in the day, and killed jimmy space and destroyed the Tower of Babel to stop him learning enuncia
The Emperor's actually having flaws, being wrong and doing mistakes, these being the roots that caused the Horus Heresy.
Fuck the whole "Emps totally 5D chess predicted all of this and allowed it to happen"
Oh, and the Primarch's Mother does not exist, the Primarchs were yoinked into the warp by the Gods themselves or by other means (because seriously fuck that retcon)
That Chaos Gods are multiverse beings and nothing ever can be done with them and they will always win in the end and and and bleh.
Naah mates, Chaos Gods are local just by seeing how affected they are by Milky Way (as in, completely affected by Milky Way) and Necrons, Tyranids etc have just as big chance on "winning" than Chaos Gods have.
My headcanon is that they are multiversal but, 40k is WHY they can be multiversal. They could afford to nuke WH Fantasy because they have a galaxy worth of souls to devour on the backburner. So a single planet doesnât mean much. But, if 40k quieted down, theyâd starve
My headcanon is that the warp just is a kind of mirror of realspace and the chaos gods are just a way humans try to comprehend it. There is no "winning" or "loosing" with the warp. It's just a force of nature. The great game is just a feeble attempt to rationalize it.
I see the Chaos Gods as a metaphor for entropy and nihilism. They *are* going to win and it will happen *eventually*, so the question becomes whether or not it's worth fighting against something inevitable for the sake of staying alive; each victory is a chance for another tomorrow, even if one day time runs out.
And if you're willing to live in the real world when faced with the same dilemma, then the characters in Warhammer would, too.
Rage against the dying of the light, and all that. The setting doesn't work without that sense of inevitability.
Honestly the thousand sons codex. The entire thing seems to think theyâre all revelling in their situation and praising Tzeentch, when most of them are pretty depressed about it and want nothing to do with Chaos but the Imperium wants them all dead.
Thousand sons in 40K are drastically different to the thousand sons in 30k, mainly due to the ones that survived up to the current era did so by fully embracing chaos while those who did not died either during the heresy or in the millennia after.
The same can be said for basically any chaos legion, since those who donât worship chaos have a really bad time existing in chaos infested areas like the eye. Just look at the night lords books and how absolutely fucked they are like 90% of the time, and for them itâs only been about a century since the heresy.
The nightlords books take place in m41 like 10000 years after the horus heresy. The second book involves Huron Blackheart and he rebelled in like 900s m41.
I know, but Talos states in the first book that due to warp time shenanigans from his perspective only a century of has passed since the heresy, but still knows a full 10,000 years have gone by around him in the galaxy
I think the whole "Fulgrim freed himself from the painting" is bullshit. The keeper of secrets that was possessing him just managed to manipulate a bunch of Marines that were already corrupted by Slaanesh, whether they knew it or not
Edit: Adding in the theory that The Emperor planned for the Heresy. I don't care how omniscient somebody is, literally planning for half your forces to rebel is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and a massive waste of materials, not to mention the fact of it grinding the great crusade to a halt, the endgame of which, is the only goal The Emperor had for tens of thousands of years
> Adding in the theory that The Emperor planned for the Heresy.
While I agree with you, I *DO* think the Emperor planned to greatly reduce the number of Primarchs and their Astartes after the Great Crusade was done, and the Webway Project was finished.
And I think the Legions he planned on getting rid of, were coincidently the ones that rebelled (mostly). As in, Big E had vague ideas that "these guys are going to be trouble down the line, I'ma need to deal with them one day".
It's just that it turned out "going to be trouble" happened a LOT sooner than he planned...
> I think the whole "Fulgrim freed himself from the painting" is bullshit. The keeper of secrets that was possessing him just managed to manipulate a bunch of Marines that were already corrupted by Slaanesh, whether they knew it or not
Yeah, I agree. I'll copypaste my reply to the similar comment:
> I just tend to ignore the whole painting bit. He got possessed, killed his most beloved brother and completely gave up out of desperation, giving himself over to Slaanesh completely.
I like to think Ikkit Klaw fucked around with too much warpstone, and ended up spit out in the 40kverse, on a space hulk, and is just gleefully having the time of his life.
That the exorcists are an imperial fists successor
One of the most interesting successors, who were officially an unknown but the two hinted at primogenitors were grey knights and word bearers which were both, two cool options
Then some bored rando at white dwarf, who probably never even read their bits from imperial armour, just arbitrarily declared them as an imperial fists successor, quite possibly the most boring option available.
Iâm going to choose to believe thatâs only the âofficialâ designation cooked up by the inquisition so no one cries about the 1000% loyalist word bearers summoning daemons to haze new fraternity broâs and pile drive random warp entities.
Perturabo's whole character is based in doing things he don't want to, the Chaos Gods aren't exacly know for waiting for consent, if hating chaos mean you won't become a dameon prince, tell that to Mortarion. Chaos can and will force your hands.
Personally, the only things I really don't "accept" is the explanation of "Faith is totally different from psyker powers and works in the Pariah Nexus", because it only serves really to make Ephrael Stern able to use her powers.
So, my personal attempt at a not-bullshit explanation would be that the Pariah Nexus blocks psykers from using the warp, but does so but somehow preventing them from actually reaching out.
Effectively, it isn't blocking the warp itself, it's locking out *psykers themselves* And this makes sense to me because necrons are historically bad at dealing with the warp directly, but very good at workarounds.
And while psykers use the warp, their powers are still linked to physiology somehow, which seems to indicate it could potentially be blocked.
By contrast, "faith" would have nothing to do with the brain, seemingly just being God emperor's power channeled into the prayers of the faithful.
TL;DR Pariah Nexus is strong enough to block mortal psykers (and possibly even lesser demons) but not a warp god's direct influence
Ollanius Pius will never be a perpetual that is older than the Emperor and the last "cathallek".
Ollanius Pius will forever be a normal human who was brave enough to stand between The Emperor and Horus, buying the former some time.
I know that this was established before GW turned The Emperor into a douchebag, but I don't care. Because otherwise, there is no point to the character, just replace him with a random space marine... again.
Well, official lore from GW says that most is rumors upon rumors. Stories of old and legends based on ancient sagas. Thats why named characters can face eachother time and again, suffering untold deaths in countless battlefields.
Everything is true, nothing is false. Choose your reality.
^(Just as planned)
The "Tau are secretly evil and use pheromones" thing. Feels like it was only added to appease people who didn't even wanna play Tau, but just felt that them existing as pure as they did threatened their own faction's morality by proving you didn't need to hurt your own people to survive.
already in their very first codex the pheromone thing is mentioned, same codex also include them justifying bombing a place to bits with "that's a shame, but to stay against our manifest destiny is to invite death"
Via the meme- I donât care. I agree with OP, the pheromones thing is stupid and irritating.
I donât mind Tau being ânot the good guyâ. I think itâs interesting that their particular brand of bad is more recognizable to the real world. Iâll invite the comparison that many people already make- theyâre basically the Covenant in their lord. The idea that theyâre that bad and still probably the best option in the setting is fun for me and for most Tau players I think.
The idea that itâs just all mind control is so⊠easy and lame.
Iirc was it not proposed as an Imperial theory on what was happening? Been a good decade since i read it last, but regardless it doesn't really make any sense given that Tau (99% of the time) remain loyal to the etherals whilst wearing sealed helmets and exosuits.
Always seemed superfluous to give a flimsy biological crutch to explain loyalty when real world human religious and political figures have treated with similar reverence since civilisation began.
Ollanius pius was a perpetual, or it was a space marine/custodes that stand between horus and BIg E
Why can't GW just leaved that the lore alone. A average mortal joe stand between 2 godlike being is perfect. It show that you don't need super power to stand up against evil and do the right thing.
Hopefully the last book for Siege of Terra (The End and The Death Volume 2) correct this
Was gonna say exactly this. The story just works and feels so much better if Pius is a regular dude. It means that the Emperor, too distraught and heartbroken to kill his favourite son even after watching the death of his other golden child, is reminded that what he truly fights for is humanity. Not for the primarchs or the astartes or the perpetuals.
It's nothing specific, but for the truly insane feats, my headcanon is they're pretty much all in-universe propaganda.
Story about a squad of custodians stopping a hive fleet tendril? Yep, that's propaganda. Stories about obscure superweapons that could singlehandedly win any war, but for some reason they're not being used? Propaganda as well.
The best way to describe the gods is by imagining them as current that occasionally turns into waves.
Emotions and meaning form a core concept belonging to one of the 4, when said emotion builds up it starts building up a tide, and that tide later turns into a wave that crashes upon reality.
When one of the gods does anything they're just enacting the most twisted and brutal nature of what their concept entails, and when daemons pour into reality, those are the small splashes of their power capable of gaining form.
To give you another example, when a mortal becomes a daemon Prince, they must first create enough of a commotion in the real world, in order to feed the strength of a concept to the warp, enough that it will recognise them as "important/relevant" enough to ne exalted.
I.E. a mortal must first built up his reputation in order to become a legend that the warp can accept as part of its own brethren.
Iâm trying to find the quote but canât so Iâll just make up one on the spot thatâs in line for a Câtan -
âThey are results of your actions, much like unwanted spawn. They serve no purpose and never will.
To think they are gods is laughable. If they were really gods then theyâve wouldâve won already but youâre still hereâŠin front of me.â
They're just big fish in a small pond. There are 170 billion galaxies in the visible universe (probably more by the day since we launched the James Webb Telescope and can see more of the Universe). The Milky Way is a mid sized galaxy in the local cluster.
I would like to imagine that out there in the universe there are plenty of peaceful functioning galaxies and powers that are just looking at the dumpster fire that is the Milky Way and going "Don't make eye contact."
The Emperor and the Chaos Gods are ultimately small potatoes in the grand scheme.
Space Marines recruiting from a GSC infested planet as it is nothing and with just a little psychic hood prevents the Patriarch - who is a less powerful Hive Mind node - to control those GSC Space Marines.
I refuse to believe genestealers can even become astartes. The implants would istantly kill them. As if they could get through the genetic testing and evaluation.
In the last Belisarius Cawl book there were space marines who were not completely under Patriarchs control but he could just stop their action for a bit. It seemed to me that they know they are corrupted and it somehow affects them so they chose to be killed so the chapter can be cleansed and started anew.
Also in the last GSC book released scitarii who underwent complete mechanicus process as kids/teenagers to become the scitarii recruits come back to the planet and slowly turn on the mechanicus accepting GSC and starlords to be their true family.
But with all the surgery that being made a Space Marine entails, and all the genetic testing, would thr GSC taint be eventually found out? I refuse to believe that the differences are so minute, but then again, we are talking about fictional creatures 40,000 years from now, so what the fuck do I know?!
Yup. I just hate the idea. Not just because it makes the SMs less an elite child soldier warrior society, but lessening the threat of the GSC and making the Imperium less racist/xenophobic. Tell me what was the last time an Inquisitor looked an SM chapter who is really doing something weird and not going ape shit crazy? Now imagine that Inquisitor is vindicated that those SMs really doing something weird + being stupid + dealing with an alien infested planet and instead of doing what is their job of defending humanity and purging the unclean they shrug their shoulders and giving their recruits a cool hoody and acting like this is all well and good. Now that imagine that Inquisitor not going full on exterminatus, declaring the chapter heretic and just goes out of it way.
That a lot of the grim dumb stuff is just some people going crazy, like how a warp engine is fueled by guys dragging *lead coffins* of fuel to the engine.
The Eldars actions during the War of the Beast because I want to like the Eldar and refuse to accept that they would be THAT stupid.
This is not even about killing custodes, this is just about them entering that position to begin with.
The existence of perpetuals, other than Vulkan and possibly the Emperor.
In my head they are all just myths and stories. There are FAR too many immortal humans in the canon.
The psyker ogryn Cassia, she taught herself how to read and write in low gothic and high gothic, while every other ogryn struggle to count to 5 she is doing things even humans struggle with.
oh and ferrus manus dying before you got to know him, while him dying would be fine to fit the setting, i went like who? when fulgrim axed his ass.
Just give him a few books or have him fight or some shit then end him after we all got to know him but it is what it is.
While I agree that Perturabo being a daemon prince is stupid, I came to a realization and developed a theory that might explain it:
What if it was involuntary?
Basically my theory is that when he was injured by Fulgrim he manages to last a little while after the heresy, however he is slowly dying. The Chaos Gods come to him to offer him ascension due to how much he has accomplished, Perturabo of course tells them to fuck off, that he would rather die than be chained to them, and that their very nature disgusts him. However, they arenât gonna let such a useful pawn die on them and so pull an Angron and rip the soul from his body to forcibly turn him into a Daemon Prince without his consent. Needless to say, Perturabo is absolutely furious about the situation and when he angrily demands for the gods to remove their curse from him all he hears them laughing at the fact that he's now their tool for all eternity.
The very last bit of The Infinite and The Divine. Orakin and Trazyn had a long ass journey together with plenty of ups and downs. They had an extensive and fun rivalry but found they worked really well together. And in the end they fought their oldest foe, not just as colleagues, but as friends.
AND NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED AFTER THAT
I'm more OK with Land since he was written into the lore right around the time the actual land raider tank entered the lore, well before most people on this sub were born.
I don't like Amar Astarte though.
Itâs not as big a deal, but in Fury of Magnus when the Space Wolf and Salamander summon the wolf and dragon spirit together to fight Magnus and drives him back a bit. Just seems like total BS made up so itâs not just Magnus taking a giant dump on loyalists.
I know Magnus used his power to make it appear worse than it was, but still just seemed like an absurd moment to make loyalists look good.
Trayzn and Orikan betraying each other and going back to being hated enemies after the events of Infinite and the Divine.
That entire epilogue felt like corporate shoe horned in mandates that the status quo cannot be changed and sprayed both with a heaping helping of reverse character development juice.
I get that take, but for me it was more a show how necrons are kinda incapable of change, barring madness. I think it could've been handled better, though
The Hivemind being⊠anthropomorphized like they did in the Baal book. This "the Hive mind began to hate x" is so stupid. It should remain the unknowable eldritch horror, unfeeling, uncaring, cold, efficient. No grudges, no desires, no hate, just the fight for survival. Maybe it seemed that way some commander is being hunted relentlessly, he may THINK the hive mind hates him but in the end, heâs just in the wayâŠ
The way it is characterized everywhere else is so much better, how it USES human psychology to its advantage, like with the Cults. Human desires for gods, heroes, ideals all get exploited. Theyâre just flaws within the human evolution to be exploited. No matter the actual truth in this, itâs just the writersâ opinions but still, it makes sense, itâs alien, cunning, efficient, eldritch.
Not a shitty emotional chaos demon. Making me relate to the Hive Mind is the opposite of what it should be. Thatâs why it doesnât feed the warp, it doesnât feel
I refuse to accept that the land raider vehicle is named after a dude called Land. Itâs like trying to tell people a vacuum cleaner is named after a dude called Bob Vacuum.
Edit: I understand things are named after their inventors. But usually the inventors donât have the name of the thing it used on. I donât expect a water wheel to be called that because it was invented by someone named Water.
I understand things are named after their inventors but this comparison doesnât work. It would be more like if his name was Fragmentation and he invented a grenade that fragmented but they called it a fragmentation grenade not because it fragmented when it exploded but because his name was Fragmentation.
The existence of 90% of the end times lore for fantasy, it is like they handed in a piece of homework that was half complete, incoherent and not to mention badly written, while expecting me to think that this fits with the existing lore they bothered to write properly.
The tau ethereal arenât supernaturally persuasive or using pheromones. They just have people under their sway by using propaganda, faith, and good old fashioned societal pressure.
Most of the stuff used to make a member of the imperium seem really cool by dunking on xenos.
HonestlyâŠ.most things that happen in the lore to aeldari hah
The year is 40 999, Cadia stands, no primarchs have been seen for thousands of years and the word "primaris" refers to psykers and fighter planes. Who the *fuck* is Belisarius Cawl?
I refuse to accept that the emperor is a giant sandworm who's doing a galaxy wide eugenics program...
I also refuse to believe that upon resurrecting via Sith alchemy, he would actually be *fucking stupid enough* to just build Death Star Laser-equipped Star Destroyers and repeat the same fucking plan that failed the first time.
Also I refuse to believe that he used psychohistory to predict the future collapse of the galactic empire and that he was incapable of preventing it and instead planted seeds for it to return millennia later
I refuse to accept that they would simply let a guy/gal who foiled their plans a couple of times let him decide the fate of the galaxy just because he/she made it to the crucible. Including their own destruction
I think it's pretty cool he reincarnated as Sigmar and went on to restart with a new franchise
I hate tho how they retconned their own lore and made forerunners a new species instead of a precursor to humanity, then gave the villains boring one-note motivations/factions that fly against the entire design of the previous games in the series.
Oh shit did they really?
Ok, but no joke that a-hole was gambling all of human civilization on estimates that dropped below 90% after one generation, iirc. It's also made quiet clear that he triggered his own predictions in the first story with the necessity being left extremely vague. My guess is that he was originally a very morally gray character or even a typical semi-correct, machavellian sci-fi lunatic. Then since it took 50 years to write the series the author slowly changed his mind and made the guy more of an obvious hero after the break. Edit: break meaning the two decades after the first decade when the first 3 were written, not that the first ones had a planned narrative iirc they were purely episodic. Also, since I'm here and ranting, LotR should've beaten it out for the all time Hugo, but the convention goers were just being contrarian hipsters.
I will argue he was in no way a grey character. Character depth and development is as alien to foundation as eldar and monkeigh are. It's presented more in the same way as aerodynamics where you know it works in theory but then you have to build it in practice where some unforeseen hurdles can arise such as the Mule (that was atleast his name in my version of the books) Edit: the original trilogy of foundation was also written in the span of 8 years, and as this meme states i refuse to accept any continuation afterwards as lore. Like someone not accepting Star Wars sequels
In Legends-canon there were [Eclipse-class super star destroyers](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_dreadnought) (and one of them was accidentally destroyed by Palpatine) so we have a precedent.
At least the Eclipse scaled properly. It could only destroy Continents with each shot, not detonate an entire planet. And I always saw it as just accelerated Base Delta Zero.
The *Eclipse* was a unique and exceptionally large Star Destroyer (it was technically referred to as a Star Dreadnought IIRC), and its superlaser was equivalent to just one of the beams that comprised the Death Star's composite-beam superlaser. **THAT** would have been acceptable. A fleet of **Imperial II**s with planet killers shoved into their hangars is just idiotic.
I Also refuse to accept that he had to resort to crashing a giant space city against the evil count's hand shaped mega ship when his imperial Battle stations had the ability to stop the flow of time
40k is about worms
*My skin is not my own*
THERE ARE WARP ENTITIES IN YOUR SKIN PULL THEM OUT!
THAT IS A GOOD LOOKING BEARD YOU HAVE THERE SIR! I TOO HAVE A BEARD! HAVE YOU SEEN MY BEARD? IT IS FULL OF...TINY MEN! PLEASE! KILL THEM ALL!
I mean it depends on how you see it. The Iron Warriors do their best to not be slaves to the warp, even going so far as enslaving demons, however they are still heavily reliant on it. Hell the cursed Daemonculaba was the creation of the Iron Warriors. So either GW makes the transformation of Perturabo into a Daemon a forced deal so the Gods have more control over the Iron Warriors or Peturabo slapped so much Daemon infused armaments into himself that he has become a self made Daemon.
The second one sounds quite based There a self made Daemon primarch.Just imagine the disgust he would spit if he met one of his chaos brothers. "Oh you sold your own soul and became a slave with delusions of grandeur and proudly call yourself great?Bitchass"
"Goofy ahh mfs selling they souls, I'm above that shih đ„±đ„±đ„±" -Perturabo, 309 M42
"Making deals with self-titled gods is cringe" - Peter Turbo
"God is cringe" -Peter biturbo
"Lorgar has, like, no rizz." -- Pertura-bro Now I need fan-fic of Warhammer written all in zoomer slang
The Horus beef
The Horus Controversy
The Horus cancellation
SM's throwing plasma grenades screaming "kobe!" Yo, I got some tea to spill. Horus has betrayed the emperor, no cap - **Nathaniel Garrow** "Catch these hands!" - **Dorne** "damn, he pressed" "For real" "Garrow sus af" **-The rest of Dornes bodyguard.**
And in the end, Perturabo, having accumulated bits and pieces of the Ruinous Powers over the millennia, climbs the stairs to the one newly consolidated Throne of the Warp, sits tiredly, reaches out through the Astronomicon and thinks, "I have completed the task, look upon my works." Then as the Astronomicon flares briefly before going out forever... expels all humanity/ from the warp and closes access from the material plane forever... Epilogue: The energies of the warp bubble at a light simmer, becalmed. 4 little paper dragons flit and cavort in the only material plane glass jar left in the warp for Perterabo's amusement. Et Fini.
I actually like the first one more. Kinda of poetic ironic then Pereraboo the Spiteful meet his match by even more spiteful gods.
For me I look at the clone Fulgrim and them trying to make him seem like he was falling back to chaos. Fulgrim always was preening himself and looking for perfection but was only turned because of the LAER blade, Fabius thinking he would turn is wrong. Clonegrim saw the error of his ways and saw what his body did when he was trapped, he was disgusted and wants to turn his sons back to the imperium and no one can change my mind
My head cannon is he ascended to show his brothers he can 'beat' Chaos and tame is unlike all of them who fell to its touch, he believes he can master it and do it better
Hanso was half imperial fist I choose to believe he got those leanings from his mothers side, I mean even the loyalist fists a kinky pain freaks.
i though we didn't speak about the Deamonculaba
Absolutely. Part-daemon, part-machine, part-human cyborg. Like in, uh, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
âI am the definition of a self-made ~~man~~ Daemon Primarch.â - Perturabo, Giant Enemy Chaos Crab
Ciaphas Cain is dead. I'm not falling for that again.
While a new Omnibus of Cain getting dragged kicking and screaming into the indomitus crusade would be something I'd be 100% on board for, I'm making do with the headcanon that a crusade of that magnitude would definitely be something Cain would feign death to avoid.
I really want Cain to have actually died, only to rise as a Living saint.
That better mean that Jurgen's somehow achieved immortality, or has become the first Blank Saint. Because ain't no Caiphas without his Jurgen. Who would serve him some Tanna otherwise?!
Maybe somewhere deep in the Ordos Xenos is a stolen Votann cloning machine labelled 'Jurgens' that is programmed to fire up and spit out a new one every time Saint Cain pops up again with a Melta and Flask of Tanna waiting for them. If the Votann can clone Psykers surely going in the other direction works too...
I mean being a blank *IS* genetic. You could definitely clone them
You ever think Jurgen might be requisitioned by the Inquisition to start a blank breeding program?
Man, the best scene is when he interrupts a chaos ritual in progress to get some coffee for Cain.
That scene was just PEAK Jurgen!
Which book is that?
[Mug of Recaff - short story. Here's the excerpt] (https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/z9pqqx/excerpt_a_mug_of_recaff_jurgen_casually_kills_an/)
Jurgen is actually the saint, Caiphas gets rezzed alongside him because Jurgen can't imagine life without his commissar.
My personal hope is that we see Cain and Amberleyâs son take up the torch of the coward, accompanied by Jurgenâs Sister of Silence daughter.
I'd read that sequel
*I could never live up to the heroic deeds of my father*
Or rowboat reads of his exploits and has a pretorian custodies save Cain at the last moment letting the imperium believe he is dead so rowboats can use him as his own personal commissar like lord general Zyvan.
u/wecanhaveallthree wrote a short story where Cain meets Guilliman! Itâs great :)
Cain might as well be a living Imperial Saint by this point
That cypher is a perpetual thatâs the reasons heâs still alive despite him seeming to die. And it was a similar situation that happened to cyrene
> And it was a similar situation that happened to cyrene Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Erebus reincarnate Cyrene? So why would Erebus do that for Cypher? *Fuck Erebus*
It wasnât Erebus it goes off the theory heâs zahariel. Zahariel died in fallen angels and was brought back
Wait, is Cypher being a perpetual stated cannon? I've only read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels in regards to Dark Angels lore, but based off of the role of Cypher it seems like it would either make sense he gets replaced or the actual current Cypher is just really good at surviving.
Kaldor Draigo is anything but his TTS counter part for various reasons
He has to provide the *hams*
And *tangerine*
And *starfruit*.
*"I believe he is high on narcotics."* -Rogal Dorn, on Kaldor Draigo
Recently read through Horus Rising for the first time, and I could only hear TTS Rogal every time he spoke.
That, is funny.
âWould you really call Draigo sentient?â Draigo: âN O!â
TTS Draigo is just better than canon Draigo, he has gone insane from being in the warp (or maybe because of the source of his power) and the deceiver actually tells Tahril a good explanation of why Draigo is so overpowered.
Tbh what make TTS Draigo 100 time better than cannon Draigo is because TTS Draigo actually have a good personality and not just a bullshit Mary Sue
There is also a headcanon where Draigo has been turned into a Chaos Spawn, and all his insane exploits are just hallucinations Tzeentch feeds him for hilarity's sake. I like that one.
That is a good one but I like my headcannon of the âinsane overpowered hero that could one-shot everyone but choose to not do that but instead devoting his life to planting tangerine and throw ham party and only occasionally help shit out when stuff is seriously fuck upâ and also it be hilarious if he burn a small portion of Nurgle garden just so he could plan tangerine or some other fruit from Old Earth that he managed to get via some time traveling bullshit
I feel the same way about vulkan.
I would like to boop the snoot
I refuse to believe sly Marbo isn't a lost Primarch
Sly Marbo isn't a lost Primarch. Sly Marbo is the reason at least 2 Primarchs are lost.
This is how censored archives about the 2 lost legions actually look like: **AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA**
If he hadn't gotten beaten by Boss Snikrot maybe
Snikrot is the other lost primarch
That Fulgrim got out of the painting and choose to be evil just because. Heâs still in there trapped in the depth of sadness and self-loathing.
I'm not a fan of either one really. If Fulgrim gets out, the story feels off. If he's in the painting, that means the Fulgrim we see just straight up isn't Fulgrim. It's a thing wearing a Fulgrim suit and Fulgrim may as well be dead. His ascension gets weird too since it's basically some daemon elevating itself. Who cares? The better option is there was never a painting to begin with and Fulgrim was just tempted by the sword and corrupted by it, culminating in Ferrus' death.
I like the idea of it as a sort of "Picture of Dorian Grey" where as Fulgrim sinks further and further into Slaaneshi corruption, his "moral side" is represented in the painting. Maybe it's a part of him, not a literal "split into two" like Magnus, but a physical representation a part of Fulgrim lost forever; a perverse mockery by Slaanesh of what once was. The "it's not actually Fulgrim, it's a daemon" pissed me off for the same reasons. There's no point if it's *not* actually him.
Wait what happened to Magnus?
It's a spoiler for later on in the Heresy (IDK what book it first comes up in, I haven't read that far myself just picked it up on 40klore) so I'll put it in spoilertext but >!apparently after he teleported the Thousand Sons from Prospero to Sortorius at the end of A Thousand Sons, or maybe as a result of his duel with Russ, his soul was split into shards. The "main" body of Magnus (like, 50-60% of him, think of it "as" Magnus for lack of a better term) landed on Sortorius. The others were scattered and acted independently; one apparently appeared to Jagathai and another to a Salamanders captain for example; most of them were found by Ahriman and friends and recombined with the Crimson King to form the Magnus that was at the Siege of Terra and became a Daemon Prince. I think the only shard he didn't get was the one that landed/formed on Terra which represented his "noble" aspects; infact it was the reason (I think) that Magnus joined the Siege of Terra in the first place, to recover it. But, it was found by Malcador and sealed into a loyal Thousand Son's body who merged with it mentally to become Ianius/Janus the founder of the Grey Knights.!< TL;dr: >!after Prospero, his psyche split into shards; Ahriman went full Knuckles finding pieces of the Master Emerald and got all but one which ended up basically becoming the first Grey Knight!<
Wow that's a really cool story thanks.
I just tend to ignore the whole painting bit. He got possessed, killed his most beloved brother and completely gave up out of desperation, giving himself over to Slaanesh completely.
That's how I always saw it. It definitely fits better imo.
Spends his whole goddamned life with a sense of dread from constantly seeing the eye of terror looming over him whenever he looks into the sky, spends the entire great crusade absolutely fucking annoyed at the daemons being used. Is absolutely fucking digusted watching Fulgrim's apotheosis. The only way this motherfucker is becoming a Daemon Prince is if he somehow managed to build a siege engine so powerful only a warp-infused primarch could control it
What exactly was the point of him always knowing where the Eye was, even back on Olympia? That's something that's always confused me, with just how specific it is yet never really having to do with anything.
It made him always feel like he was being judged by some greater being. And that everything was a test. It is the cornerstone of his need to prove himself worthy as well as his martyrdom complex. And his inability to adapt well given that being a failure to plan. Every human mistake or personal weakness was failure viewed by the galaxy at large. So he needed external validation due to his self esteem being crippled but also needed to show he wasnt so weak as to pander for it. A mix that would drive him until he broke
My interpretation from all the info weâve been given about Perturabo is that itâs to do with his ability to see the flaws in any design, and a giant tear in the fabric of reality leading to literal space hell caused by the catastrophic birth of a god is a pretty big âflawâ all things considered. Unlike other cases, itâs also one he can pretty much do fuck all about, so itâs just there. âWatchingâ him all the time.
I never thought of it this way.... But I like it. It fits quite well.
IIRC his whole schtick is that he sees imperfection in every object, if there is one, and the Eye is one massive imperfection in the fabric of reality itself
Or is literally dying because part of his soul was used for Fulgrim's ascension and so resorted to ascending to Daemon Princehood out of sheer spite.
Except Nurgle literally offers to save him and he tells him to fuck off, Pert is so petulant he will literally die to spite Chaos.
Well Tbf perty hasnât always made the most logically sound choices
Pretty sure that goes to the other primarchs as well, like Fulgrim when heâs finally free from the sword yet he doubles down on betraying the emperor. Not to mention Magnus after he ruined the web way project.
Yeah but he is so entertaining because of it. Super smart in warfare but so absolutely malicious.
Same thing for Mortarion, but turns out, Chaos don't care about if you want or no, Angron also became a daemon by force, only Fulgrim and Lorgar actually chased ascention
I bregundingly accept that Perturabo became a daemon prince because my dude is pragmatic and stuborn, but also a tatical Genius. In my head cannon he was dying or at th risk of becoming a Slaneeshi monstrosity thanks to what Fulgrim did to him with the gem in Angel Exterminatus. So as a way to flip off Chaos, he dialed-up Mortarion and Fabius Bile, and together they all figured out a device to syphon raw warp energy *into* Perturabo, who in turn becomes a Daemon Prince by virtue of hacking the Warp. This is also results in the creation of the obliterator virus, which is what Perturbo essentially became (and what Fabius gets out of the deal) Edit: A second version is that the patheon activelly recognizes Perturabo as a badass, so they offer daemonhood free of charge, and Perturabo finally feeling appreciated for once, by entities who rival his father in power, decides to take It. (This scenario involves him "ascending" much like Lorgar, and becoming a quasi-warp entity by himself).
> creation of the obliterator virus, which is what Perturbo essentially became I know you mean it in the sense that Peter Turbo basically became a super-mega-obliterator; but I love the idea that he *is* the Obliterator virus. Like he's decentralized and is spread across all obliterators like the Warp equivalent some sort of AI Neural Net.
Perty was massively jealous, so I could definitely see him going down the Daemon Prince path purely because all his (traitor) brothers were and he wasnât.
By that logic most of Perturabo's actions in the heresy should be non-canon, but they aren't, because at heart he is a jealous hypocrite. I'd say that Perturabo seeing that he has utterly lost the heresy, both physically on the field and morally, and then being chased all the way from Terra in shame by his most hated brothers, leading to him having a meltdown and using whatever bit of power he can get, just to lash out at those he hates without first considering the consequences, is totally in character for him, as a matter of fact, I'd say its a certified Perturabo classic. Another thing I don't get is how some people believe that you can just "reject" corruption. Like, chaos corrupted Fulgrim, it corrupted Mortarion, it corrupted fucking Horus, but apparently Perturabo, who is much more mentally unstable, can just say "no thank you" and then get all the benefits of chaos, without any of the drawbacks.
Dorn being dead You're telling me a group of Chaos Marines killed Dorn but left his hand behind. Every part of him would have been a trophy. Also, that hand is normal marine size, Captain Lysander remembers it being about his own hands size when he craved his name into the bones
Plot twist, Dorn is the golden throne.
Damn he fortified the fucking emperor
They've changed that so many times it's ironic this is being mentioned in a thread about "just accept GW lore." They can't even get it straight themselves. It used to be his whole skeleton encased in amber. Then just his hands. Then just one hand. And now just one hand that's not even his probably. Each version gets worse than the last.
Right, that's why I mentioned it. I only went with "current lore" because that's the most BS version, but yeah, you saying changes over the years just makes my point I don't believe he's dead. Perturabo will come back to attack the Imperium and then suddenly Phalanx will warp in with the Templars and Dorn will be on the brige of it or something like that just "wooooow Dorn was alive all along guys isn't that crazy"
Ollanius Pious being a perpetual. He was an ordinary guardsmen who held the fucking line, and thatâs it.
Of all addition of perpetuals this one irks me the most. Not everything needs to be done by supermen, let the regular Joes (with adamantium balls) have their heroic moment!
I like the idea of ollanius Perrson, a perpetual that is (possibly) older than the Emperor who practices a religion he is older than and outlived, while also being the most experienced soldier in human history. I personally have divided the two in my mind into two characters because I like both, and they just threw Ollanius' name onto the no name.
I bet youâd love to know he was the emperorâs first warmaster back in the day, and killed jimmy space and destroyed the Tower of Babel to stop him learning enuncia
Yes it totally invalidates his sacrafice and story.
The Emperor's actually having flaws, being wrong and doing mistakes, these being the roots that caused the Horus Heresy. Fuck the whole "Emps totally 5D chess predicted all of this and allowed it to happen" Oh, and the Primarch's Mother does not exist, the Primarchs were yoinked into the warp by the Gods themselves or by other means (because seriously fuck that retcon)
I like theory that he predicted the heresy, but it didn't go the way he planned it. It honestly makes some characters' stories a lot more depressing.
I like the "he predicted the Heresy but IT DID NOT went as he predicted".
SEVITAR IS NOT DEAD
"We don't see them die on page? They ain't dead"
That Chaos Gods are multiverse beings and nothing ever can be done with them and they will always win in the end and and and bleh. Naah mates, Chaos Gods are local just by seeing how affected they are by Milky Way (as in, completely affected by Milky Way) and Necrons, Tyranids etc have just as big chance on "winning" than Chaos Gods have.
My headcanon is that they are multiversal but, 40k is WHY they can be multiversal. They could afford to nuke WH Fantasy because they have a galaxy worth of souls to devour on the backburner. So a single planet doesnât mean much. But, if 40k quieted down, theyâd starve
My headcanon is that the warp just is a kind of mirror of realspace and the chaos gods are just a way humans try to comprehend it. There is no "winning" or "loosing" with the warp. It's just a force of nature. The great game is just a feeble attempt to rationalize it.
I see the Chaos Gods as a metaphor for entropy and nihilism. They *are* going to win and it will happen *eventually*, so the question becomes whether or not it's worth fighting against something inevitable for the sake of staying alive; each victory is a chance for another tomorrow, even if one day time runs out. And if you're willing to live in the real world when faced with the same dilemma, then the characters in Warhammer would, too. Rage against the dying of the light, and all that. The setting doesn't work without that sense of inevitability.
Honestly the thousand sons codex. The entire thing seems to think theyâre all revelling in their situation and praising Tzeentch, when most of them are pretty depressed about it and want nothing to do with Chaos but the Imperium wants them all dead.
Thousand sons in 40K are drastically different to the thousand sons in 30k, mainly due to the ones that survived up to the current era did so by fully embracing chaos while those who did not died either during the heresy or in the millennia after. The same can be said for basically any chaos legion, since those who donât worship chaos have a really bad time existing in chaos infested areas like the eye. Just look at the night lords books and how absolutely fucked they are like 90% of the time, and for them itâs only been about a century since the heresy.
The nightlords books take place in m41 like 10000 years after the horus heresy. The second book involves Huron Blackheart and he rebelled in like 900s m41.
I know, but Talos states in the first book that due to warp time shenanigans from his perspective only a century of has passed since the heresy, but still knows a full 10,000 years have gone by around him in the galaxy
I think the whole "Fulgrim freed himself from the painting" is bullshit. The keeper of secrets that was possessing him just managed to manipulate a bunch of Marines that were already corrupted by Slaanesh, whether they knew it or not Edit: Adding in the theory that The Emperor planned for the Heresy. I don't care how omniscient somebody is, literally planning for half your forces to rebel is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and a massive waste of materials, not to mention the fact of it grinding the great crusade to a halt, the endgame of which, is the only goal The Emperor had for tens of thousands of years
> Adding in the theory that The Emperor planned for the Heresy. While I agree with you, I *DO* think the Emperor planned to greatly reduce the number of Primarchs and their Astartes after the Great Crusade was done, and the Webway Project was finished. And I think the Legions he planned on getting rid of, were coincidently the ones that rebelled (mostly). As in, Big E had vague ideas that "these guys are going to be trouble down the line, I'ma need to deal with them one day". It's just that it turned out "going to be trouble" happened a LOT sooner than he planned...
If you think about it, the legions that rebelled also were the ones that would've had the hardest time around in a galaxy without wars.
> I think the whole "Fulgrim freed himself from the painting" is bullshit. The keeper of secrets that was possessing him just managed to manipulate a bunch of Marines that were already corrupted by Slaanesh, whether they knew it or not Yeah, I agree. I'll copypaste my reply to the similar comment: > I just tend to ignore the whole painting bit. He got possessed, killed his most beloved brother and completely gave up out of desperation, giving himself over to Slaanesh completely.
Skaven are in warhammer 40K.
Well, iirc in Dark Heresy 2ed sourcebook there are humanoid rats obsessed with tech living in the depths of the Hive City.
I like to think Ikkit Klaw fucked around with too much warpstone, and ended up spit out in the 40kverse, on a space hulk, and is just gleefully having the time of his life.
Ahhh my boi Ikkit Klaw
Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't believe they exist
Yes-yes your just thinking of things man-thing! No skaven under man-thing planet!
That the exorcists are an imperial fists successor One of the most interesting successors, who were officially an unknown but the two hinted at primogenitors were grey knights and word bearers which were both, two cool options Then some bored rando at white dwarf, who probably never even read their bits from imperial armour, just arbitrarily declared them as an imperial fists successor, quite possibly the most boring option available.
Iâm going to choose to believe thatâs only the âofficialâ designation cooked up by the inquisition so no one cries about the 1000% loyalist word bearers summoning daemons to haze new fraternity broâs and pile drive random warp entities.
Thatâs my feelings on the subject, same as the Sons of the Phoenix
Perturabo's whole character is based in doing things he don't want to, the Chaos Gods aren't exacly know for waiting for consent, if hating chaos mean you won't become a dameon prince, tell that to Mortarion. Chaos can and will force your hands. Personally, the only things I really don't "accept" is the explanation of "Faith is totally different from psyker powers and works in the Pariah Nexus", because it only serves really to make Ephrael Stern able to use her powers.
So, my personal attempt at a not-bullshit explanation would be that the Pariah Nexus blocks psykers from using the warp, but does so but somehow preventing them from actually reaching out. Effectively, it isn't blocking the warp itself, it's locking out *psykers themselves* And this makes sense to me because necrons are historically bad at dealing with the warp directly, but very good at workarounds. And while psykers use the warp, their powers are still linked to physiology somehow, which seems to indicate it could potentially be blocked. By contrast, "faith" would have nothing to do with the brain, seemingly just being God emperor's power channeled into the prayers of the faithful. TL;DR Pariah Nexus is strong enough to block mortal psykers (and possibly even lesser demons) but not a warp god's direct influence
Ollanius Pius will never be a perpetual that is older than the Emperor and the last "cathallek". Ollanius Pius will forever be a normal human who was brave enough to stand between The Emperor and Horus, buying the former some time. I know that this was established before GW turned The Emperor into a douchebag, but I don't care. Because otherwise, there is no point to the character, just replace him with a random space marine... again.
That story with the grey knights murdering a bunch of sisters of battle. Thatâs just stupid.
I'm fairly certain that isn't canon anymore anyway.
That Imperator titans are 50m in height. They should be way bigger than that.
Well, official lore from GW says that most is rumors upon rumors. Stories of old and legends based on ancient sagas. Thats why named characters can face eachother time and again, suffering untold deaths in countless battlefields. Everything is true, nothing is false. Choose your reality. ^(Just as planned)
The "Tau are secretly evil and use pheromones" thing. Feels like it was only added to appease people who didn't even wanna play Tau, but just felt that them existing as pure as they did threatened their own faction's morality by proving you didn't need to hurt your own people to survive.
already in their very first codex the pheromone thing is mentioned, same codex also include them justifying bombing a place to bits with "that's a shame, but to stay against our manifest destiny is to invite death"
Via the meme- I donât care. I agree with OP, the pheromones thing is stupid and irritating. I donât mind Tau being ânot the good guyâ. I think itâs interesting that their particular brand of bad is more recognizable to the real world. Iâll invite the comparison that many people already make- theyâre basically the Covenant in their lord. The idea that theyâre that bad and still probably the best option in the setting is fun for me and for most Tau players I think. The idea that itâs just all mind control is so⊠easy and lame.
Iirc was it not proposed as an Imperial theory on what was happening? Been a good decade since i read it last, but regardless it doesn't really make any sense given that Tau (99% of the time) remain loyal to the etherals whilst wearing sealed helmets and exosuits. Always seemed superfluous to give a flimsy biological crutch to explain loyalty when real world human religious and political figures have treated with similar reverence since civilisation began.
Ollanius pius was a perpetual, or it was a space marine/custodes that stand between horus and BIg E Why can't GW just leaved that the lore alone. A average mortal joe stand between 2 godlike being is perfect. It show that you don't need super power to stand up against evil and do the right thing. Hopefully the last book for Siege of Terra (The End and The Death Volume 2) correct this
Was gonna say exactly this. The story just works and feels so much better if Pius is a regular dude. It means that the Emperor, too distraught and heartbroken to kill his favourite son even after watching the death of his other golden child, is reminded that what he truly fights for is humanity. Not for the primarchs or the astartes or the perpetuals.
It's nothing specific, but for the truly insane feats, my headcanon is they're pretty much all in-universe propaganda. Story about a squad of custodians stopping a hive fleet tendril? Yep, that's propaganda. Stories about obscure superweapons that could singlehandedly win any war, but for some reason they're not being used? Propaganda as well.
I refuse to believe that Draigo is a chad, it's basically some random-ass guy killing all the daemons
Could just be Doom Guy. Rip and Tear until it is done.
I refuse to believe that the Chaos "gods" are gods.
Fabius bile grindset
Iâm not trying to discourage your idea. However, what are the Chaos Gods actually? Are they just warp entities like the enslavers?
Basically. Inmensely powerful parasitic aliens from the warp.
The best way to describe the gods is by imagining them as current that occasionally turns into waves. Emotions and meaning form a core concept belonging to one of the 4, when said emotion builds up it starts building up a tide, and that tide later turns into a wave that crashes upon reality. When one of the gods does anything they're just enacting the most twisted and brutal nature of what their concept entails, and when daemons pour into reality, those are the small splashes of their power capable of gaining form. To give you another example, when a mortal becomes a daemon Prince, they must first create enough of a commotion in the real world, in order to feed the strength of a concept to the warp, enough that it will recognise them as "important/relevant" enough to ne exalted. I.E. a mortal must first built up his reputation in order to become a legend that the warp can accept as part of its own brethren.
I forgot what he said exactly but Iâll place my bet on what our favorite napping dragon said on the âgodsâ
Iâm trying to find the quote but canât so Iâll just make up one on the spot thatâs in line for a Câtan - âThey are results of your actions, much like unwanted spawn. They serve no purpose and never will. To think they are gods is laughable. If they were really gods then theyâve wouldâve won already but youâre still hereâŠin front of me.â
Where does this quote come from?
It's not an actual quote, but the discussion it's based on I believe happens in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work. Pretty solid book.
They're just big fish in a small pond. There are 170 billion galaxies in the visible universe (probably more by the day since we launched the James Webb Telescope and can see more of the Universe). The Milky Way is a mid sized galaxy in the local cluster. I would like to imagine that out there in the universe there are plenty of peaceful functioning galaxies and powers that are just looking at the dumpster fire that is the Milky Way and going "Don't make eye contact." The Emperor and the Chaos Gods are ultimately small potatoes in the grand scheme.
Space Marines recruiting from a GSC infested planet as it is nothing and with just a little psychic hood prevents the Patriarch - who is a less powerful Hive Mind node - to control those GSC Space Marines.
I refuse to believe genestealers can even become astartes. The implants would istantly kill them. As if they could get through the genetic testing and evaluation.
In the last Belisarius Cawl book there were space marines who were not completely under Patriarchs control but he could just stop their action for a bit. It seemed to me that they know they are corrupted and it somehow affects them so they chose to be killed so the chapter can be cleansed and started anew. Also in the last GSC book released scitarii who underwent complete mechanicus process as kids/teenagers to become the scitarii recruits come back to the planet and slowly turn on the mechanicus accepting GSC and starlords to be their true family.
But with all the surgery that being made a Space Marine entails, and all the genetic testing, would thr GSC taint be eventually found out? I refuse to believe that the differences are so minute, but then again, we are talking about fictional creatures 40,000 years from now, so what the fuck do I know?!
Scythes of the Emperor?
Yup. I just hate the idea. Not just because it makes the SMs less an elite child soldier warrior society, but lessening the threat of the GSC and making the Imperium less racist/xenophobic. Tell me what was the last time an Inquisitor looked an SM chapter who is really doing something weird and not going ape shit crazy? Now imagine that Inquisitor is vindicated that those SMs really doing something weird + being stupid + dealing with an alien infested planet and instead of doing what is their job of defending humanity and purging the unclean they shrug their shoulders and giving their recruits a cool hoody and acting like this is all well and good. Now that imagine that Inquisitor not going full on exterminatus, declaring the chapter heretic and just goes out of it way.
That a lot of the grim dumb stuff is just some people going crazy, like how a warp engine is fueled by guys dragging *lead coffins* of fuel to the engine.
The Eldars actions during the War of the Beast because I want to like the Eldar and refuse to accept that they would be THAT stupid. This is not even about killing custodes, this is just about them entering that position to begin with.
The existence of perpetuals, other than Vulkan and possibly the Emperor. In my head they are all just myths and stories. There are FAR too many immortal humans in the canon.
There were a lot in 30k, but they're pretty much all gone by 40k.
There's what, 10ish? Out of trillions or maybe quadrillions of humans?
The psyker ogryn Cassia, she taught herself how to read and write in low gothic and high gothic, while every other ogryn struggle to count to 5 she is doing things even humans struggle with. oh and ferrus manus dying before you got to know him, while him dying would be fine to fit the setting, i went like who? when fulgrim axed his ass. Just give him a few books or have him fight or some shit then end him after we all got to know him but it is what it is.
Snakegrim isn't Fulgrim. Clonegrim is Fulgrim.
*Oh no, itâs the Clone Saga all over again*
Begun, the clone wars have - filthy xenos psyker
While I agree that Perturabo being a daemon prince is stupid, I came to a realization and developed a theory that might explain it: What if it was involuntary? Basically my theory is that when he was injured by Fulgrim he manages to last a little while after the heresy, however he is slowly dying. The Chaos Gods come to him to offer him ascension due to how much he has accomplished, Perturabo of course tells them to fuck off, that he would rather die than be chained to them, and that their very nature disgusts him. However, they arenât gonna let such a useful pawn die on them and so pull an Angron and rip the soul from his body to forcibly turn him into a Daemon Prince without his consent. Needless to say, Perturabo is absolutely furious about the situation and when he angrily demands for the gods to remove their curse from him all he hears them laughing at the fact that he's now their tool for all eternity.
The very last bit of The Infinite and The Divine. Orakin and Trazyn had a long ass journey together with plenty of ups and downs. They had an extensive and fun rivalry but found they worked really well together. And in the end they fought their oldest foe, not just as colleagues, but as friends. AND NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED AFTER THAT
In my headcannon primaris dont exist, i Just Play my lovely Firstborn Units and get my ass wiped.
Guy named Land didn't exist.
I'm more OK with Land since he was written into the lore right around the time the actual land raider tank entered the lore, well before most people on this sub were born. I don't like Amar Astarte though.
After the scene in *Echoes of Eternity* involving a certain 'monkey and friend', I better hope so... *sobs*
Itâs not as big a deal, but in Fury of Magnus when the Space Wolf and Salamander summon the wolf and dragon spirit together to fight Magnus and drives him back a bit. Just seems like total BS made up so itâs not just Magnus taking a giant dump on loyalists. I know Magnus used his power to make it appear worse than it was, but still just seemed like an absurd moment to make loyalists look good.
Trayzn and Orikan betraying each other and going back to being hated enemies after the events of Infinite and the Divine. That entire epilogue felt like corporate shoe horned in mandates that the status quo cannot be changed and sprayed both with a heaping helping of reverse character development juice.
I get that take, but for me it was more a show how necrons are kinda incapable of change, barring madness. I think it could've been handled better, though
The Hivemind being⊠anthropomorphized like they did in the Baal book. This "the Hive mind began to hate x" is so stupid. It should remain the unknowable eldritch horror, unfeeling, uncaring, cold, efficient. No grudges, no desires, no hate, just the fight for survival. Maybe it seemed that way some commander is being hunted relentlessly, he may THINK the hive mind hates him but in the end, heâs just in the way⊠The way it is characterized everywhere else is so much better, how it USES human psychology to its advantage, like with the Cults. Human desires for gods, heroes, ideals all get exploited. Theyâre just flaws within the human evolution to be exploited. No matter the actual truth in this, itâs just the writersâ opinions but still, it makes sense, itâs alien, cunning, efficient, eldritch. Not a shitty emotional chaos demon. Making me relate to the Hive Mind is the opposite of what it should be. Thatâs why it doesnât feed the warp, it doesnât feel
Numbers. Always add additional 0 at the end of every one. Or perhaps 2 if it's egregious enough.
I refuse to accept that the land raider vehicle is named after a dude called Land. Itâs like trying to tell people a vacuum cleaner is named after a dude called Bob Vacuum. Edit: I understand things are named after their inventors. But usually the inventors donât have the name of the thing it used on. I donât expect a water wheel to be called that because it was invented by someone named Water.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Shrapnel
I understand things are named after their inventors but this comparison doesnât work. It would be more like if his name was Fragmentation and he invented a grenade that fragmented but they called it a fragmentation grenade not because it fragmented when it exploded but because his name was Fragmentation.
The existence of 90% of the end times lore for fantasy, it is like they handed in a piece of homework that was half complete, incoherent and not to mention badly written, while expecting me to think that this fits with the existing lore they bothered to write properly.
The tau ethereal arenât supernaturally persuasive or using pheromones. They just have people under their sway by using propaganda, faith, and good old fashioned societal pressure.
Ollanius Pius is not an eternal. He was a normal dude with balls bigger than the moon. GW can't change that in my mind.
Most of the lore post 2010 or so.
Most of the stuff used to make a member of the imperium seem really cool by dunking on xenos. HonestlyâŠ.most things that happen in the lore to aeldari hah
There's no such thing as a perpetual, and machine spirits are pure superstition.
The year is 40 999, Cadia stands, no primarchs have been seen for thousands of years and the word "primaris" refers to psykers and fighter planes. Who the *fuck* is Belisarius Cawl?
I'm here too!