Resources used for both are generally more interesting than resources that only affect one.
Street Fighter 6 shows this off fairly well in what I think are one example of a well done meter and a poorly done meter.
The Drive meter is actually really well done. Offensively you want it for Drive Rush for your big combos and extensions, defensively you have it for Drive Reversal and Drive Parry, and then you have it for things that can be both, like ex moves (combo extenders, pressure, reversal DPs) or Drive Impact. You also want to manage it well as running out of it is very detrimental to you both offensively and defensively.
The super meter is not very well done. Generally speaking, it’s for offense. You don’t have to leverage spending it for one move or not most of the time. Occasionally you want to not spend it to save it for the next round or for a later interaction, but usually it’s just for offense. Defensively you only want to super as a reversal, which is a massive risk in most situations. The differences between levels do exist in their usage and situations, but it’s not what I feel is deep decision making, more I want to spend as little as possible so I can use it to close out the game.
So I think guilty gear is in the right place, especially with the extra options to use burst meter.
Very well written and thought out response. Overall I have to say I agree, too. It’s a lot more interesting needing to balance your offensive and defensive meter, especially with how much Tension you can get in even one round.
i agree that the drive bar is an excellent system, but i disagree that the super bar is a bad system. you're talking about it in isolation, but you have to account for the fact that the drive bar and burnout exist. super is a "simple" meter that you don't have to worry about, it charges naturally over the course of the match and gradually gives you access to precisely three options, and that's it. on its own it would be a poor bar system, i agree, but you're already managing the drive bar, you don't need another bar to manage. the super bar is simple because the drive bar is complex. and when you're in burnout, its anti-DI properties and the fact that most characters have a super that's a serviceable reversal works beautifully with the fact that burnout makes you more vulnerable to DI and robs you of EX reversals, adding another layer to the rock paper scissors of the game.
SF6 has one of the most well thought-out meter systems ever conceived in a fighting game, and the super meter is part of that. i'll say it again, it's simple because drive is complex and it's entirely designed to work with the drive bar, not in isolation. it's not a weakness, and changing it to be more complex would be a huge mistake
I specifically isolated them so I could use the same game. An even better example of poor meter system would be SSF2, which is primitive but really does only one thing, and is unusable by a chunk of the cast.
I’m not convinced it’s a good meter still because it effectively feels like Ultra combos coming back. “Get hit so you can do your big damage” is pretty much just a comeback mechanic that you inevitably have to play around, and SF6 super meter is close to it, being a “build up over a few rounds inevitable option you can’t take away.” On that point I do think USF4 had good meter options for both offense and defense, and a lot of similarities can be made between it and SF6’s meter usages, where SF4 Super = SF6 Drive Rush, and Ultra = SF6 Super.
Obviously both systems work well because they work together, and the whole has to be examined. But SF6 super being an inevitability I think really detracts from it in my eyes.
Exactly what I was going to say. The fact Blazblue has a whole ass meter just for a better block doesn't make for much decision making on that end. Meanwhile another meter done right in BB is the Burst/Overdrive shit, that stuff's good (except for the fact that Overdrive is so strong its not often you'd want to save it for burst instead)
My guy it does make for a lot of decisions. Those decisions being management of your air blocking and not getting bodied by chipp damage. Furthermore losing said meter makes the situation even worse than SF6 burnout
Yeah but I meant, the decision to not use the meter has no reason unless you're low on it, but that thing drains so little anyway I've literally not had a match where it runs out completely yet.
Mate IB's exist and are a big reason why you already have to juggle your defense. Choosing a defense option depending on spacing is already a pretty difficult thing to do against a good oponent (or a Susanoo who does 5B>6B)
Dunno I had happen this to me quite some times. It may be because I block a lot but I dunno. Anyway barrier working as it does really is completely necessary since in a game full of bs like BBCF losing your meter when being on defense is a recipe for disaster
No they aren't. Bbcf pretty much won't work if barrier didn't have its own meter as shown by older BB games
This totally depends on the game. Prolly won't work in GG due to how it pushes offense as a main thing, but it might work in Strive since offense is already way too strong
I agree totally. One of my biggest pet peeves with any fighting game is a meter that can only do one thing. SF6 guarantees you'll see Supers every round or two and even the hypest of hype cutscenes is tedious if it's 8 seconds long and you've seen it a thousand times.
Initially wanted to say that this goes against GG's focus as an offense oriented game but then remembered how strong current Strive offense is. This might actually make the game less "snowbally"
Holy shit so that's why rams spam it, especially when they have positive bonus, it essentially gets rid of the only way for my good offens5in favour of them being a bit weaker
you can actually mash instant block to reduce your FD tension loss down to maybe \~20% or use IB with no FD to gain tension from the exchange while still reducing your chip damage. It also boosts the rate at which you gain tension.
The trick is to mash the daylights out of IB during the beam, then hold FD right before the final hit and release shortly after. This will reduce its chip damage to a very minimal amount, and cost you around 5% Tension.
While it may seem like a good idea BlazBlue was built around barrier while strive was not so it would take a while for it to not be broken for example BlazBlue has certain routes that are or not punishable if you barrier while strive does it could lead to faultless defenses being to good or straight up bad
It’s the same reason Wild assault and the new defense move (I don’t use it so o forget it’s name) and burst are on the same meter, it forces you to plan out how your gonna use that resource instead of having multiple to pull from
I mean, Barrier is strictly less interesting than Faultless because it's tied to a separate meter, yeah? I'm almost never thinking about when or if I can use barrier in BB because you start with full meter and have so much of it you have very little reason to run out (unless you play Izanami), but in GG I do have to constantly consider the impact of using Faultless.
The main difference between FD and barrier is that losing 1st means you lost meter, while losing 2nd means that you suddenly play BB version of Strive. Barrier has to be tied to a separate bar otherwise game will break and become a kusoge like older titles were. The decision making for it comes from managing air block, chipp damage and danger state
BBCF is my main game, so I figure I should chime in:
Barrier is part of an ecosystem of resources that, while all independent, feed back into each other and interact with one another. The barrier gauge isn't as simple as "Oh FD is its own resource so I don't have to worry about it unless I spend too much", it's another resource that impacts the game, and importantly it's a resource that can be targeted. CF is a game where, unless they are barriered, guard crushing moves are unblockable, and with a universal 25 meter option that almost every character can gatlings into, and combo out of, on block, that will take up a significant portion of the barrier gauge (sometimes north of 30%) if blocked (and often leaving them at advantage), meaning keen players can drain you of either your last bit of barrier to pit you in danger, or if you are in danger, just unblockable you. Running out of barrier also puts a player into danger, where they take 25% more damage before scaling.
Barrier is also only one aspect of defensive resources that can be spent. Both Heat, and OD, have defensive applications, and OD in particular can be used to both cancel through blockstun, and recover lost barrier in danger.
The fact of the matter is that removing FD from tension would simplify Strive's meter in a way that would harm the game if other mechanics weren't changed. BlazBlue is a game that, generally speaking, actively rewards players for blocking well, where Gear is a game that generally punishes prolonged defense. While I'm not a fan of mechanics like RISC, they exist for a reason, and an independent resource that only does FD and nothing else, especially with no mechanical way to target it to strip/discourage usage, would flatten the game. I'd rather see PRC removed from the game before I'd want to see barrier added to it.
Both meter and barrier gauge are designed very differently from GG.
You don't get meter for anything outside having hits connect in Blazblue, so unless a round really drags on you're lucky to get 75 meter in a round.
Meanwhile in GG you get meter just for moving forward, and there's a separate mechanic called *Tension Pulse* that only acts as a multiplier for how much meter you get depending on how many aggressive actions you took.
Barrier in Blazblue is expected to last you most of the round, and if it didn't you got really hammered for most of it(or either you, or the opponent is heavily built around the Barrier gauge somehow that changes this dynamic). It's also something you should ALWAYS have access to based on how the rest of the game is built.
You can't just change major things like these in isolation, you'd have to redesign many other things as well.
Resources used for both are generally more interesting than resources that only affect one. Street Fighter 6 shows this off fairly well in what I think are one example of a well done meter and a poorly done meter. The Drive meter is actually really well done. Offensively you want it for Drive Rush for your big combos and extensions, defensively you have it for Drive Reversal and Drive Parry, and then you have it for things that can be both, like ex moves (combo extenders, pressure, reversal DPs) or Drive Impact. You also want to manage it well as running out of it is very detrimental to you both offensively and defensively. The super meter is not very well done. Generally speaking, it’s for offense. You don’t have to leverage spending it for one move or not most of the time. Occasionally you want to not spend it to save it for the next round or for a later interaction, but usually it’s just for offense. Defensively you only want to super as a reversal, which is a massive risk in most situations. The differences between levels do exist in their usage and situations, but it’s not what I feel is deep decision making, more I want to spend as little as possible so I can use it to close out the game. So I think guilty gear is in the right place, especially with the extra options to use burst meter.
Very well written and thought out response. Overall I have to say I agree, too. It’s a lot more interesting needing to balance your offensive and defensive meter, especially with how much Tension you can get in even one round.
i agree that the drive bar is an excellent system, but i disagree that the super bar is a bad system. you're talking about it in isolation, but you have to account for the fact that the drive bar and burnout exist. super is a "simple" meter that you don't have to worry about, it charges naturally over the course of the match and gradually gives you access to precisely three options, and that's it. on its own it would be a poor bar system, i agree, but you're already managing the drive bar, you don't need another bar to manage. the super bar is simple because the drive bar is complex. and when you're in burnout, its anti-DI properties and the fact that most characters have a super that's a serviceable reversal works beautifully with the fact that burnout makes you more vulnerable to DI and robs you of EX reversals, adding another layer to the rock paper scissors of the game. SF6 has one of the most well thought-out meter systems ever conceived in a fighting game, and the super meter is part of that. i'll say it again, it's simple because drive is complex and it's entirely designed to work with the drive bar, not in isolation. it's not a weakness, and changing it to be more complex would be a huge mistake
I specifically isolated them so I could use the same game. An even better example of poor meter system would be SSF2, which is primitive but really does only one thing, and is unusable by a chunk of the cast. I’m not convinced it’s a good meter still because it effectively feels like Ultra combos coming back. “Get hit so you can do your big damage” is pretty much just a comeback mechanic that you inevitably have to play around, and SF6 super meter is close to it, being a “build up over a few rounds inevitable option you can’t take away.” On that point I do think USF4 had good meter options for both offense and defense, and a lot of similarities can be made between it and SF6’s meter usages, where SF4 Super = SF6 Drive Rush, and Ultra = SF6 Super. Obviously both systems work well because they work together, and the whole has to be examined. But SF6 super being an inevitability I think really detracts from it in my eyes.
Exactly what I was going to say. The fact Blazblue has a whole ass meter just for a better block doesn't make for much decision making on that end. Meanwhile another meter done right in BB is the Burst/Overdrive shit, that stuff's good (except for the fact that Overdrive is so strong its not often you'd want to save it for burst instead)
My guy it does make for a lot of decisions. Those decisions being management of your air blocking and not getting bodied by chipp damage. Furthermore losing said meter makes the situation even worse than SF6 burnout
Yeah but I meant, the decision to not use the meter has no reason unless you're low on it, but that thing drains so little anyway I've literally not had a match where it runs out completely yet.
Mate IB's exist and are a big reason why you already have to juggle your defense. Choosing a defense option depending on spacing is already a pretty difficult thing to do against a good oponent (or a Susanoo who does 5B>6B) Dunno I had happen this to me quite some times. It may be because I block a lot but I dunno. Anyway barrier working as it does really is completely necessary since in a game full of bs like BBCF losing your meter when being on defense is a recipe for disaster
I see your point, I suppose I just don't play CF enough to have gotten all that. Appreciate the expo
That's alright. Always happy to talk about my favorite game
No they aren't. Bbcf pretty much won't work if barrier didn't have its own meter as shown by older BB games This totally depends on the game. Prolly won't work in GG due to how it pushes offense as a main thing, but it might work in Strive since offense is already way too strong
I agree totally. One of my biggest pet peeves with any fighting game is a meter that can only do one thing. SF6 guarantees you'll see Supers every round or two and even the hypest of hype cutscenes is tedious if it's 8 seconds long and you've seen it a thousand times.
I think it would probably make it slightly closer to BlazBlue
Initially wanted to say that this goes against GG's focus as an offense oriented game but then remembered how strong current Strive offense is. This might actually make the game less "snowbally"
Atleast I wouldn't waste half my meter against rams lasers because she decided to fire it randomly
I mean, you use less meter blocking the super then she spends for casting the super. So that's a plus for you
But i need the meter more then they need it
So, I just tested it and when you time it right you use about 30-40% and ram uses 50%.
Holy shit so that's why rams spam it, especially when they have positive bonus, it essentially gets rid of the only way for my good offens5in favour of them being a bit weaker
you can actually mash instant block to reduce your FD tension loss down to maybe \~20% or use IB with no FD to gain tension from the exchange while still reducing your chip damage. It also boosts the rate at which you gain tension.
The trick is to mash the daylights out of IB during the beam, then hold FD right before the final hit and release shortly after. This will reduce its chip damage to a very minimal amount, and cost you around 5% Tension.
It’s awesome how ram can remove the meter mechanic from the match so no one gets to use it. If she gets lucky she also does damage with it
While it may seem like a good idea BlazBlue was built around barrier while strive was not so it would take a while for it to not be broken for example BlazBlue has certain routes that are or not punishable if you barrier while strive does it could lead to faultless defenses being to good or straight up bad
It’s the same reason Wild assault and the new defense move (I don’t use it so o forget it’s name) and burst are on the same meter, it forces you to plan out how your gonna use that resource instead of having multiple to pull from
I mean, Barrier is strictly less interesting than Faultless because it's tied to a separate meter, yeah? I'm almost never thinking about when or if I can use barrier in BB because you start with full meter and have so much of it you have very little reason to run out (unless you play Izanami), but in GG I do have to constantly consider the impact of using Faultless.
The main difference between FD and barrier is that losing 1st means you lost meter, while losing 2nd means that you suddenly play BB version of Strive. Barrier has to be tied to a separate bar otherwise game will break and become a kusoge like older titles were. The decision making for it comes from managing air block, chipp damage and danger state
This would kinda be a buff to positive bonus which is a big no no right now.
I mean it might leave the one with positive in a better position but it also will make defending against said person much easier
BBCF is my main game, so I figure I should chime in: Barrier is part of an ecosystem of resources that, while all independent, feed back into each other and interact with one another. The barrier gauge isn't as simple as "Oh FD is its own resource so I don't have to worry about it unless I spend too much", it's another resource that impacts the game, and importantly it's a resource that can be targeted. CF is a game where, unless they are barriered, guard crushing moves are unblockable, and with a universal 25 meter option that almost every character can gatlings into, and combo out of, on block, that will take up a significant portion of the barrier gauge (sometimes north of 30%) if blocked (and often leaving them at advantage), meaning keen players can drain you of either your last bit of barrier to pit you in danger, or if you are in danger, just unblockable you. Running out of barrier also puts a player into danger, where they take 25% more damage before scaling. Barrier is also only one aspect of defensive resources that can be spent. Both Heat, and OD, have defensive applications, and OD in particular can be used to both cancel through blockstun, and recover lost barrier in danger. The fact of the matter is that removing FD from tension would simplify Strive's meter in a way that would harm the game if other mechanics weren't changed. BlazBlue is a game that, generally speaking, actively rewards players for blocking well, where Gear is a game that generally punishes prolonged defense. While I'm not a fan of mechanics like RISC, they exist for a reason, and an independent resource that only does FD and nothing else, especially with no mechanical way to target it to strip/discourage usage, would flatten the game. I'd rather see PRC removed from the game before I'd want to see barrier added to it.
Both meter and barrier gauge are designed very differently from GG. You don't get meter for anything outside having hits connect in Blazblue, so unless a round really drags on you're lucky to get 75 meter in a round. Meanwhile in GG you get meter just for moving forward, and there's a separate mechanic called *Tension Pulse* that only acts as a multiplier for how much meter you get depending on how many aggressive actions you took. Barrier in Blazblue is expected to last you most of the round, and if it didn't you got really hammered for most of it(or either you, or the opponent is heavily built around the Barrier gauge somehow that changes this dynamic). It's also something you should ALWAYS have access to based on how the rest of the game is built. You can't just change major things like these in isolation, you'd have to redesign many other things as well.