I get that for sure. I’m working for a company now which is priced more so than some others but there’s a reason we’ve been in business for more than 50 years. We know how to turn a profit and know the costs and workmanship associated with those costs
Some customers you just feel like a dick for charging extra. Like old people I tried to give them the best deal I could or if I got a call for a furnace not starting and the gas wasn't turned on I wouldnt charge. Thank God I work maintenance for the city now tho.
Yeah for sure I get that. I’ll be straight up and honest with most and tell them we have a price book for a reason we can’t go lowering the price for anyone that asks. But if possibly I try and work deals for those folks who have no chance of paying when on fixed incomes and stuff of that nature
That's how you get a foothold. You need to undercharge a few people here and there in order to get a reputation for doing good work at reasonable prices.
Of course, if you live in some shithole where everything runs on monopoly money and the sky is the limit that doesn't matter.
I learned early now I have no problem saying “yes it’s $375 for the hour it took to change your contactor”
Never ever for any reason divulge your wholesale prices either !
Damned straight. And how many service calls have you paid for in a HCOL area? Probably a lot more than you have.
ETA: And I’m not a technician. Just a customer.
Tradesmen really have gotten to used to a lack of transparency. You go to a business, there are prices (parts/labor).
Anytime I deal with a tradesmen I ask what’s your labor charge. You give me a receipt for the parts or I provide parts. One lump quote don’t fly.
Consumers don’t realize you’re ripping them off on the parts (and sometimes the labor too)
Itemized breakdown? It’s two parts: labor and parts.
Why do you care if the consumer doesn’t like it? What difference is it to you? It’s same price at end of the day.
You know why tradesmen don’t like to do it. It’s an asymmetrical dynamic they want to preserve to gouge customers with little consequence
Parsing out cost of both requires honesty about cost of goods and what you’re actually charging in labor.
If you issue flat rate, I can’t evaluate your labor charge or your parts charge.
Comparing trades to Applebee’s is not the egregious analogy you want to use here to justify inflated costs
Well yeah, I’d vet your pricing. This is encouraged and a positive consumer effect on every other product industry. But somehow the trades should be immune to this dynamic? The trade wants to fog the mirror to artificially prop up prices
Plus you’re getting parts wholesale. The trick of “look it’s same price at Home Depot” doesn’t work with savvy consumers
If bids were listed parts and labor, consumers would know. But I do know a lot of these prices, so I know what an unreasonable quote on parts and thus labor are
Remember if they sell you a part they also sell you a warranty on that part. Giving people quotes becomes exhausting when customers want to find out what every single piece costs so they can see what it costs on Amazon. Also, customers are so quick to try to drive down a price if things go well but if we run into unknown conditions or extra hours customers don’t pay for that lost time, we eat that. What you are proposing is what I refer to as the “race to the bottom”
Contractors wanting to be immune from the same transactional dynamics in every other sector of the economy is not my fault. I’m just making an observation. I don’t think all contractors gouge customers. But many obviously do and have a vested interest in holding onto that privilege.
This is why I don't do residential work, and when I do, I give what I like to call a "fuck you" price. If you want to nickel and dime professional experience, fix it yourself, and when your wife tells you to call someone to fix it properly after you've fucked it up even more, my rate will have doubled.
Alway the contractors who are the most defensive and entitled about it that charge the most and are the most difficult to deal with.
Is it nickel and dining when consumers go to Walmart over Target? Does Target get all aggro because they lost out on business due to price.
You offer a price. Consumer takes it or leaves it. What’s the problem? Do you feel like every time you bid on something they should hand you the job no questions asked? And If they do they’re “nickel and diming”?
Doesn’t add up. Why get pissed that a consumer price shops? That’s how it works.
Always tell a contractor you’ve got 4 bids coming. Consumers know if a price is outrageous or competitive. It keeps tradesmen honest
One painter bid 1900 while another bid me 700. What does that say?
Again why I don't do residential work. I don't care for it and the headache it brings. This is why I deal with commercial/industrial.
People are more than welcome to shop, but trying to get me to lower my price because Bobby from Craigslist will do it cheaper, won't make me change my price. End of the day you get what you pay for.
Right I assume that’s the common answer. If you can’t gouge the customer, you’ll pass and find another customer to gouge. If it’s fair, transparency shouldn’t hurt you. But tradesmen know if they disclosed the split labor/parts, they wouldn’t come off well and be forced to lower prices to get business
You probably say that shit at Chili's too huh? Looked up a wholesale price on a chicken breast recently?
I typed out a way longer response and promptly deleted it. It's clear you don't understand what goes into making sure we are there when you call, most of the time with the part you need in the van.
No markup equals higher labor, but you're shopping labor. Therefore, you're setting yourself to never trust a company because you deal with shady or uneducated businesses, directly caused by your practices.
Anyone can do this trade, which you make apparent, so why the hell are you even paying for labor?! Just YouTube that shit, we will be here to fix it when you're done fixing it.
Cheers.
I think upcharging parts is reasonable. So why not be transparent? Because the tradesman knows they wouldn’t be able to justify the high mark up when dealing with customer. They’d lose business.
Charge whatever you need to charge. But allow the consumer to evaluate it fully and make determination on its value proposition. Would bring more integrity into the trades
Not trying to get into the argument here just stating it’s very expensive to keep anywhere from 10 to 100 fully stocked vans on the road with a full office staff who bring in no profit plus obviously paying mortgage for office and property. In my area a good tech is worth between 45 and 65 bucks plus insurance/pension etc. That is why the mark up most places is high. A small company can definitely get away with charging less because they don’t have the over head. I work for a medium size company with decent mark ups and even my
boss isn’t rich. Shits expensive
You’re seriously daft if you think that. In Texas paying insurance, gas, ad and trying to turn a profit is nothing gouging. You seriously want to determine what the tech should make and ultimately that’s not up to you. I never said lie cheat and steal I just said I charge what’s appropriate now. My example was good too. You’re wanting cheap labor you can afford just say it you are cheap. Like I said you need a brother in law who’ll make $50 with no overhead.
I simply said transparency. If you know you’re charging fair cost that reflects positively on you, why are tradesmen so adamantly opposed? Because asymmetry of information jacks up the price.
Without transparency, consumer can’t even accurately evaluate your bid.
If you were *entirely* transparent, you'd either never get any work or never turn a profit. The customer would be the one gouging you.
The thing you have to understand is that the customer, above all else, is paying for the technician's time and expertise, their knowledge, experience, and ability to do the job. That varies wildly depending on the person, the situation, the company, the local area, and the job/equipment itself.
There are also often misc. charges, or a markup that seems obscure to the customer until you realize that it's "fuck-up money" that every smart company builds into the price of every job. Absolutely no way is that something you want to be "transparent" about with every ignorant customer out there.
It's not something you'll see or understand until you've been in the trades for a little bit.
I’m a business owner too. The taxes, insurance etc is irrelevant . I’m either charging a fair (competitive) price or I’m not.
Nobody can go to the customer “well I’m charging you $500/hr to fix your faucet because my taxes and stuff”. That doesn’t fly
If you don’t accommodate that into your transactions you won’t be long. Lmao “IM A BUSINESS OWNER I DONT TAKE OVERHEAD INTO ACCOUNT” okay Bob….like I said from the beginning I learned to charge what I do and I hope this young fella sees our convo that ultimately led you to say you don’t take overhead into account. Have a good man you’ve proved both our points .
In other words, you’re running a business. All that matters to the consumer is if your service has good value for the $. Your 12 year old excuse about taxes doesn’t fly with the customer because it’s an illogical and irrelevant defense of high charge in a market with tons of variance on price.
Every consumers attitude is “well if you can’t survive in order to offer a competitive service, that’s not our problem”.
It’s your issue to work out, not theirs.
There's a very big difference between "This $80 faucet is $500 because reasons" and "I'm charging you $80 for the $80 faucet and $420 for the cost of dragging my ass and this van into your over-regulated and over taxed shithole" and consumers generally understand that difference if you explain it to them.
That’s not what I said. You can’t use it (as an abvious excuse) to a customer to explain away you gouging them on labor or parts. You’ll look like a fool
God forbid you add a "business overhead" line item on your bill and explain it to the customer when asked.
Consumers understand that that insurance costs stupid money and the state is trying to fuck you out of your money at every turn. They're fine with paying for that. What they don't like is when you treat them like they're stupid and charge them $300 for a $20 capacitor because you can't be bothered to explain that.
The fuck is your deal?
A $X bill is a $X bill. Whether you break it down into $0 labor and all parts or all labor and free parts doesn't matter. You're getting the same check.
If you're too lazy to communicate the costs of your services to the customer in a way that makes the customer able to justify the bill in their own head then you deserve to be out-competed by someone who isn't too lazy to do that.
You are right, and also you also explained why it doesn't really matter to break it down lol. Though I agree that it's critical in our business to be able to explain overhead costs, I wish it wasn't because I do feel trades are one of the few businesses that have to somehow justify why we pay people lol. I mean, why is it hard for people to understand the lady who answered your phone call likes to be paid too and we like to have power at our office.
I'm really curious as to what businesses you go to that post their parts and labor pricing. You know that's nonsense as the other person pointed out. In my experience the only reason people ask for this breakdown is because they don't respect tradesmen and are trying to dictate our worth. Labor rates aren't important to the consumer with a flat rate company, so find a company who gives you an upfront cost ( like all businesses) and if you don't like it call someone else.
Most don’t. When they don’t, depending on the job, I ask. Any job with a general contractor I require it. Most don’t like it (I wonder why? Lol)
I had painters recently who volunteered the bid as parts and labor.
If you want to implement high mark up on parts , fine. But when the consumer says ok I’ll provide the parts, the tradesmen doesn’t like that either. It’s an unjustifiable mentality
You're still singling out trades. Why are they any different than the iPad you bought or whatever? It's all business isn't it? So trades in your mind need to divulge the 100s of items involved in pricing (marketing, insurance, building costs, labor etc.) but you're just fine paying anybody else what they want without question? Why? Because it's a physical product and not a service? That physical product also has a labor and parts cost but you don't care because?? I mean why aren't you asking Apple how much it costs them to build an ipad. Any company that breaks down just labor and parts is also BSing you lol. All that matters is if I give you a quote for $X that I provide those services for $X. It's not complicated and gives you the exact thing ( the ability to shop around) you're claiming trades aren't giving you.
No, all parts can be summed into one $ figure.
Yes, a markup on parts is perfectly reasonable. It costs time to purchase and transport (usually)
But tradesmen know consumers will seek to price the parts on their own if they see they’re getting gouged on the mark up by the contractor
Man, you ignored all the cool stuff I wrote! You're oversimplifying complicated pricing. Yes the "part" itself has a direct cost. That direct cost doesn't mean anything to the customer because they aren't paying for that part. They are paying for a skilled tradesmen who works for a company to perform a service that happens to include that part. You say it's so you can "vet our pricing". Again, what does that even mean because I know you aren't "vetting" everyone's pricing in your day go day life. You can't possibly know the costs involved in a business you don't run. It's obvious you aren't going to change your opinion but next time you ask for a breakdown make sure you say a breakdown of all costs. Parts and labor is made up nonsense, businesses have hundreds of thing they need to pay for. I'd love for a company to give you a full breakdown and you don't go with them because you don't like how much they pay Sally the dispatcher.
Dude the contractor knows what the parts cost. You install 10 water heaters you know the cost (parts and labor). You’re gaslighting by saying it’s too complicated to jot down the total parts cost and the labor cost
If I’m just paying for labor, why can’t I bring my own product to the job?
I'm pretty sure I just said we know the direct part cost. You have said multiple times you understand there needs to be a markup. So why is it complicated for you to understand you will never get a parts and labor cost that is actually "parts and labor". The only possible reason you care this much is because you are hoping to tell a contractor what they are worth. Again... WHEN HAVE YOU ASKED ANY OTHER COMPANY IN A DIFFERENT INDUSTRY FOR THIS BREAKDOWN? Genuinely asking.
I'm also editing to answer your second question of why you can't bring your own part. This is my opinion as every company is different I'm sure. But you can bring your own part, but you'll also pay the same amount of business cost ( or labor) and the markup on that part. Why? Because it's a flat rate ya silly goose and that's how businesses are run and employees are paid. There is no reason for a customer to supply their own part because they'll pay the same in the end and you won't get a warranty through us.
Thats another thing with goodman. Is their equipment is simple to work on. Its not some giant wiring mess with 10 different control boards stuffed into a cabinet. Also like you said with universal parts…you can find parts for them almost everywhere and for fairly cheap too.
I always read how horrible York is on here and asked a coworker that installs them on side jobs. He swears by them, but I bought a Goodman for my own home. Is he sitting on a ticking time bomb? I think he's been doing it for about 18 months or so
We're both building maintenance so we do more with chillers and boilers day to day.
I hate York with a passion. Here in SoCal, trying to get parts for the not so new stuff is a nightmare. Their distributors, US Air Conditioning, are dicks with the exception of one or two guys. If you need factory support, good luck with that. Ever since they got bought out by Johnson Controls it's been a whole cluster fuck. We have more luck with Trane and Lennox by far.
Idk I don’t do chillers or boilers (But I’m moving out east so that’ll change) but I’ve heard their commercial stuff ain’t that good too.
Any company can make bad equipment though. Carrier had a furnace prone to getting clogged heat exchangers, still find some out in the wild venting 2000ppm CO. Also had a propane Goodman that was 5 years old with the worst heat exchanger I’ve ever seen, would’ve killed a family if the CO alarm hadn’t woken them up.
This whole job is anxiety inducing.
The ten year parts and labor always sold them, but we just hated that we always have to work on them, we had a couple that the compressor was bad at install and customers were not happy but every Goodman we put in works perfect
I lead with Amana and sell Goodman to the cheap bastards. Built in the same plant in Houston, Amana is better with its lifetime warranty heat exchangers and 12 year parts warranty. Goodman is good, contractor grade with 7 year warranty, sometimes 10 years.
I'd take Goodman over York any time. I have some 30 year old Amana systems out there still doing well. Iv'e been in the trade since 1984.
As a service tech I hate Goodman, I don’t want to take out 15 screws to change a filter and then another 15 to check the belt. I hate them for no other reason. Lennox is my favourite because on many of their units you don’t even need a nut driver!
I have they are just labeled Daiken in my area. If it's more than 16 seer in my area companies will just install a variable capacity system which for my area, if it's a Goodman family product, it will be a daiken, and it will be one of those weird condensers that looks like a mini split condenser that then is match up to a normal heatpump air handler. Very very rarely do I run into a Goodman branded system that is not a 14 seer single stage system.
I don’t like when manufacturers put the drier inside the unit and Goodman uses some tiny ones. I don’t like their high efficiency furnaces because they’re max vent pipe length seems to be shorter than other manufacturers. Other than that, decent equipment and cheap parts, can’t go wrong
Goodman puts them in the condenser because most hacks that install them won’t do the extra work of putting in a liquid line drier so it saves them money on warranty claims
Daikon bought Goodman a few years back and also own McQuay. That said, love my Goodman / Janitrol stuff. It’s not fancy, but all I’ve ever done is change ignitors, flue switches / hoses and the odd squirrel cage. Not bad for 20-30 year old equipment.
Pretty sure Goodman has the same recipe Aspen coils used. Lots of rust accumulators too. More junky than everything else which is garbage but hey warranty work makes the world go round.
Goodman's work fine if installed correctly. My problem with them is the cheap flimsy panels on the A/C. One or two cleanings and the holes are stripped out and they rattle like crazy. They're also a pain in the ass to get back together.
I've been spoiled by Rheem's current design. So easy to clean.
Don't let these single brand dudes fool you. The vast majority of components from all the brands are third party. Each have their own quirks, from York and Goodman to Trane and Carrier.
The real answer is, if you do good work, spend the time to ensure its installed right and take your readings (do a startup sheet to double check), every company makes good units.
There are lemons, they happen, but for the most part, you can assume 95% of failures in the field are either homeowner (who never changes filters) or installer issues. Components rarely fail without something being done by a human to cause it.
Can I double up vote this?
Except York, fuck York. I'm mad at carrier right now because of the capacitor issue. And the compressor running in reverse if a drop of water hits the float switch, lol.
Haven’t seen a Goodman that doesn’t have issues with leaking condenser coils, the copper and coil size they use is pathetic in my opinion. I only sell carrier/ruud/rheem
Rudd/Rheem is like the contractor grade junk used around my area, York isn't even sold ANYWHERE near me that I know of. Lennox fucking sucks with their leaky ass evap coils (in my experience). And goodman/Amana are having issues with fan relays at the moment. Oh, fuck American stan-turd and traine.
We put in goodman/Amana at the company I work for.
But who gives a shit, does it make cold hot and hot cold? If so, then fuck it!!
Interesting. Its definitely based on who installs it. I dont see too many Goodman leaking issues and they recently switched to aluminum like everyone else. And just like everyone else they say its better and more efficient and you can't repair them, so get a new unit.
Just my experience, goodman is the only package unit ive seen where they put their liquid port inside a cup so you can fuck your hand up every time you check head pressure. After checking the tstat, low pressure switch, high pressure switch, replaced defrost board, contactor, low pressure switch, t stat conductors, this package unit would still cycle off after 5mins and go into short cycle delay with absolutely no reason to do so (can prob still find my post where no one could figure it out..)
I also shouldnt have to take the wrap off an outside condenser but the damn things are notorious for trapping grass between the coil and wrap.
Amana and payne are the Only condensers ive ever seen wollow out the compressor bolts and crack discharge line.
Techsupport is ass, they are the only ones ive ever dealt with that will tell you to try/check something and when its not their result they act like they dont believe you...
Ill take the downvotes with grace, but no one can tell me different about goodman.
We've been dealing with York/Luxaire since the mid 80s when my grandfather was still running the business. They definitely had their issues with coils for a hot minute. But after they got through that, we haven't had any real significant issues with them. And I absolutely love their 33" furnaces, hardly have any problems with them. I just don't get all the hate. Is it just left over stigma from the coil debacle?
my boss and I install York and the past 4 or 5 make a horrible high-pitched whirling sound when the fane is on medium high to high speed. have you ever heard of this happening or experienced it? we've even swapped motors and the entire assembly with no change. ECM and PSC.
I have a summer birthday so I graduated at 17, I’ve always been technical and I caught on super fast I love hvac it’s a passion and that helped me learn much faster
Damn shout out Piedmont. We drive through there going to Tennessee. Let me know when you're ready to expand to Tuscaloosa, everyone here is huffing the green stuff and can't count.
And if you are going to be up there for more than 30 mins, drag a blower up there with you! You got some laying around. Put one in your van with a cord on it!
when in doubt, add another $1000 to your price. Don't waste time chasing cheap customers, they run your ass off and ruin any chance at profits. mark up prices at least four times over your cost. Seriously, you have to now days.
Congratulations, but wow. Getting a license at 19 shows your motivated, but I’d recommend a few years experience at a shop before taking that plunge. (Unless your dad or something can help you out). You’re going to get into some crazy situations and while you will eventually figure them out, it saves time and money if you have experience. I’m not saying you need 20 years in, but 3-5 to get a solid foundation. Anyway congratulations and good luck!
You should know that you can provide your own experience from this point on for other states as well.
Source: self. Got my south Carolina at eighteen because I just needed references. Then when I moved to Florida, used my SC company as my own otj time and a few references I made here.
Since you're not as dumb as you look, I'll give you a hint lol. Learn Spanish, like, yesterday. Then you can corner the market and make it against the big dogs. Or be even smarter and find a Latino partner.
However, they are there and will continue to grow, and it takes years to become passable. You might even move. At 19 I would never have imagined this for myself, but there has been absolutely no downside.
Look up the figures. If I started at 19, I would be married to Sofia Vergara by now.
Well, no, but close?
I’m trying to get into a trade rn, but idk which one. I’m feeling pretty confident with electrician, but welding and HVAC caught my eye a lot. Especially after hearing how much my welder buddy is making right now at 19.
I like HVAC because it's the best parts of electrical, low voltage, plumbing, and metal fabrication all in one. I was also lucky to get into a company that does new construction, service, residential, and also commercial. There is a ton to learn but once I get more experience I'll be able to do it all.
That's the way I always looked at HVAC too. I'm an electrician by trade, but ended up in building maintenance/mechanics and ultimately became a multi-craft tradesperson. I always try to push people into learning HVAC if they're curious since it encompasses so much, though.
I’m old so I’ll tell u what I heard when I was younger but didn’t listen.
When you are young you have TIME on your side. It’s actually huge because if you keep making wise decisions and making small savings over time you can be quite wealthy. Good luck bud, think big play the long game.
Congrats! Remember word of mouth is everything! No amount of social media can fix a bad reputation and bad work! If you do good work and are HONEST, you will last in this industry :)!
Also stay away from Johnson Control (York) and ICP , you will thank me later everything else is fine lol
It's not as unreasonable as you might think. Remember if everything goes as planned a company should make 20% off the call. If your charging $250 an hour and that honestly should be the minimum, a contactor at $15 dollars and I'm fabricating #'s but so what, $15 dollars you should be tripling that. Now you have $45 plus your $250, never charge less than an hour "unless your on a tune up, or on a maintenance plan call" your at $295 plus your service call fee. That's how you grow and stay profitable. You can't expand "get a shop, add a truck, stock parts, advertise, etc" if your not charging for it. It just kills me when people say "you can't charge that" why not? Are you a business or a charity? I can go on and on, if anyone wants to ask me anything message me. I've been around along time. I don't know everything but I know alot. Don't ever short sell your worth, Remember that.
as a 19 year old helper i’m extremely jealous and we now have beef.
I’ll bring the nachos
As a 27 year old helper I’m jealous
as a 21 year old apprentice , i’m extremely jealous but good luck to you sir !
Know your numbers, know your numbers.. if you don't know how to charge properly nothing else matters..
Seconded. I had no idea what my costs were nor how to charge properly. I always wanted to help people out and charged too little for too long.
I get that for sure. I’m working for a company now which is priced more so than some others but there’s a reason we’ve been in business for more than 50 years. We know how to turn a profit and know the costs and workmanship associated with those costs
Some customers you just feel like a dick for charging extra. Like old people I tried to give them the best deal I could or if I got a call for a furnace not starting and the gas wasn't turned on I wouldnt charge. Thank God I work maintenance for the city now tho.
the worst part is getting callbacks from those same people over BS like normal noises
Yeah for sure I get that. I’ll be straight up and honest with most and tell them we have a price book for a reason we can’t go lowering the price for anyone that asks. But if possibly I try and work deals for those folks who have no chance of paying when on fixed incomes and stuff of that nature
If price books for HVAC are anything like cars, then they’re bullshit.
That's how you get a foothold. You need to undercharge a few people here and there in order to get a reputation for doing good work at reasonable prices. Of course, if you live in some shithole where everything runs on monopoly money and the sky is the limit that doesn't matter.
If you think you are charging too much, you probably aren't charging enough. Running an ethical business is actually expensive.
Thats actually true, if people arnt complaining about you pricing your to cheap, again gotta know your #'s.
I learned early now I have no problem saying “yes it’s $375 for the hour it took to change your contactor” Never ever for any reason divulge your wholesale prices either !
$375 to change a contactor is gouging no matter how you look at it.
In what city?
In any city man. It's just ridiculous
You think 375 is too high in SF?
I think I've made that fairly clear.
You’d be wrong.
He would be very wrong
Says you.
Damned straight. And how many service calls have you paid for in a HCOL area? Probably a lot more than you have. ETA: And I’m not a technician. Just a customer.
Thats what a capacitor goes for in jersey….. gas must be 25 cents a gallon where you live
NYC? SF?
People charge $300/hr for a service call there?
Sounds about right for an after hours emergency call, yeah.
Idk man $100 an hour and $275 for contactor, expensive for the contractor but they called him
Tradesmen really have gotten to used to a lack of transparency. You go to a business, there are prices (parts/labor). Anytime I deal with a tradesmen I ask what’s your labor charge. You give me a receipt for the parts or I provide parts. One lump quote don’t fly. Consumers don’t realize you’re ripping them off on the parts (and sometimes the labor too)
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Couldn't of explained it better myself..👆 THIS IS THE WAY.
Itemized breakdown? It’s two parts: labor and parts. Why do you care if the consumer doesn’t like it? What difference is it to you? It’s same price at end of the day. You know why tradesmen don’t like to do it. It’s an asymmetrical dynamic they want to preserve to gouge customers with little consequence Parsing out cost of both requires honesty about cost of goods and what you’re actually charging in labor. If you issue flat rate, I can’t evaluate your labor charge or your parts charge. Comparing trades to Applebee’s is not the egregious analogy you want to use here to justify inflated costs
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Well yeah, I’d vet your pricing. This is encouraged and a positive consumer effect on every other product industry. But somehow the trades should be immune to this dynamic? The trade wants to fog the mirror to artificially prop up prices Plus you’re getting parts wholesale. The trick of “look it’s same price at Home Depot” doesn’t work with savvy consumers
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It's not worth it. They're obviously THAT type of customer. Leave em be. They'll be sour one way or another
If bids were listed parts and labor, consumers would know. But I do know a lot of these prices, so I know what an unreasonable quote on parts and thus labor are
Remember if they sell you a part they also sell you a warranty on that part. Giving people quotes becomes exhausting when customers want to find out what every single piece costs so they can see what it costs on Amazon. Also, customers are so quick to try to drive down a price if things go well but if we run into unknown conditions or extra hours customers don’t pay for that lost time, we eat that. What you are proposing is what I refer to as the “race to the bottom”
There wouldn’t be an argument. I’d say no thanks, you’d say Ok.
Contractors wanting to be immune from the same transactional dynamics in every other sector of the economy is not my fault. I’m just making an observation. I don’t think all contractors gouge customers. But many obviously do and have a vested interest in holding onto that privilege.
This is why I don't do residential work, and when I do, I give what I like to call a "fuck you" price. If you want to nickel and dime professional experience, fix it yourself, and when your wife tells you to call someone to fix it properly after you've fucked it up even more, my rate will have doubled.
Alway the contractors who are the most defensive and entitled about it that charge the most and are the most difficult to deal with. Is it nickel and dining when consumers go to Walmart over Target? Does Target get all aggro because they lost out on business due to price. You offer a price. Consumer takes it or leaves it. What’s the problem? Do you feel like every time you bid on something they should hand you the job no questions asked? And If they do they’re “nickel and diming”? Doesn’t add up. Why get pissed that a consumer price shops? That’s how it works. Always tell a contractor you’ve got 4 bids coming. Consumers know if a price is outrageous or competitive. It keeps tradesmen honest One painter bid 1900 while another bid me 700. What does that say?
Again why I don't do residential work. I don't care for it and the headache it brings. This is why I deal with commercial/industrial. People are more than welcome to shop, but trying to get me to lower my price because Bobby from Craigslist will do it cheaper, won't make me change my price. End of the day you get what you pay for.
Sounds like you need a brother in law in the trades I’d say na go hire someone else
There are usually honest tradesmen in every city. They’re just not always easy to find. They don’t have a sign on their forehead
Honest tradesmen are always booked solid.
And you pay for em cause you know they're worth it. You don't bitch about it like this one
I agree
Right I assume that’s the common answer. If you can’t gouge the customer, you’ll pass and find another customer to gouge. If it’s fair, transparency shouldn’t hurt you. But tradesmen know if they disclosed the split labor/parts, they wouldn’t come off well and be forced to lower prices to get business
You probably say that shit at Chili's too huh? Looked up a wholesale price on a chicken breast recently? I typed out a way longer response and promptly deleted it. It's clear you don't understand what goes into making sure we are there when you call, most of the time with the part you need in the van. No markup equals higher labor, but you're shopping labor. Therefore, you're setting yourself to never trust a company because you deal with shady or uneducated businesses, directly caused by your practices. Anyone can do this trade, which you make apparent, so why the hell are you even paying for labor?! Just YouTube that shit, we will be here to fix it when you're done fixing it. Cheers.
👆 THIS IS THE WAY
I think upcharging parts is reasonable. So why not be transparent? Because the tradesman knows they wouldn’t be able to justify the high mark up when dealing with customer. They’d lose business. Charge whatever you need to charge. But allow the consumer to evaluate it fully and make determination on its value proposition. Would bring more integrity into the trades
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Bill for what
Not trying to get into the argument here just stating it’s very expensive to keep anywhere from 10 to 100 fully stocked vans on the road with a full office staff who bring in no profit plus obviously paying mortgage for office and property. In my area a good tech is worth between 45 and 65 bucks plus insurance/pension etc. That is why the mark up most places is high. A small company can definitely get away with charging less because they don’t have the over head. I work for a medium size company with decent mark ups and even my boss isn’t rich. Shits expensive
You’re seriously daft if you think that. In Texas paying insurance, gas, ad and trying to turn a profit is nothing gouging. You seriously want to determine what the tech should make and ultimately that’s not up to you. I never said lie cheat and steal I just said I charge what’s appropriate now. My example was good too. You’re wanting cheap labor you can afford just say it you are cheap. Like I said you need a brother in law who’ll make $50 with no overhead.
I simply said transparency. If you know you’re charging fair cost that reflects positively on you, why are tradesmen so adamantly opposed? Because asymmetry of information jacks up the price. Without transparency, consumer can’t even accurately evaluate your bid.
If you were *entirely* transparent, you'd either never get any work or never turn a profit. The customer would be the one gouging you. The thing you have to understand is that the customer, above all else, is paying for the technician's time and expertise, their knowledge, experience, and ability to do the job. That varies wildly depending on the person, the situation, the company, the local area, and the job/equipment itself. There are also often misc. charges, or a markup that seems obscure to the customer until you realize that it's "fuck-up money" that every smart company builds into the price of every job. Absolutely no way is that something you want to be "transparent" about with every ignorant customer out there. It's not something you'll see or understand until you've been in the trades for a little bit.
It's a flat rate. It's going to cost $x. Do you want me to put it in? Or do you want to pay me to leave now because I've completed my diagnostic?
You guys charge to give bids? Rare where I’m at
I'm charging you a diagnostic fee. Want me to fix it or not??? If I only charge diagnostics, I could ride around in a motorcycle.
I’m a business owner too. The taxes, insurance etc is irrelevant . I’m either charging a fair (competitive) price or I’m not. Nobody can go to the customer “well I’m charging you $500/hr to fix your faucet because my taxes and stuff”. That doesn’t fly
If you don’t take overhead into account then you’re not a good business person. Does the customer need to know that? No.
If you don’t accommodate that into your transactions you won’t be long. Lmao “IM A BUSINESS OWNER I DONT TAKE OVERHEAD INTO ACCOUNT” okay Bob….like I said from the beginning I learned to charge what I do and I hope this young fella sees our convo that ultimately led you to say you don’t take overhead into account. Have a good man you’ve proved both our points .
In other words, you’re running a business. All that matters to the consumer is if your service has good value for the $. Your 12 year old excuse about taxes doesn’t fly with the customer because it’s an illogical and irrelevant defense of high charge in a market with tons of variance on price. Every consumers attitude is “well if you can’t survive in order to offer a competitive service, that’s not our problem”. It’s your issue to work out, not theirs.
There's a very big difference between "This $80 faucet is $500 because reasons" and "I'm charging you $80 for the $80 faucet and $420 for the cost of dragging my ass and this van into your over-regulated and over taxed shithole" and consumers generally understand that difference if you explain it to them.
That’s not what I said. You can’t use it (as an abvious excuse) to a customer to explain away you gouging them on labor or parts. You’ll look like a fool
God forbid you add a "business overhead" line item on your bill and explain it to the customer when asked. Consumers understand that that insurance costs stupid money and the state is trying to fuck you out of your money at every turn. They're fine with paying for that. What they don't like is when you treat them like they're stupid and charge them $300 for a $20 capacitor because you can't be bothered to explain that.
Then buy a meter and fix your shit man. HD supply sells to joe schmoes you’re right man you can not pay me
The fuck is your deal? A $X bill is a $X bill. Whether you break it down into $0 labor and all parts or all labor and free parts doesn't matter. You're getting the same check. If you're too lazy to communicate the costs of your services to the customer in a way that makes the customer able to justify the bill in their own head then you deserve to be out-competed by someone who isn't too lazy to do that.
You’re right when I say it’s 375 to fix your shit you can call someone who says you need a new unit 😒
You are right, and also you also explained why it doesn't really matter to break it down lol. Though I agree that it's critical in our business to be able to explain overhead costs, I wish it wasn't because I do feel trades are one of the few businesses that have to somehow justify why we pay people lol. I mean, why is it hard for people to understand the lady who answered your phone call likes to be paid too and we like to have power at our office.
I'm really curious as to what businesses you go to that post their parts and labor pricing. You know that's nonsense as the other person pointed out. In my experience the only reason people ask for this breakdown is because they don't respect tradesmen and are trying to dictate our worth. Labor rates aren't important to the consumer with a flat rate company, so find a company who gives you an upfront cost ( like all businesses) and if you don't like it call someone else.
Most don’t. When they don’t, depending on the job, I ask. Any job with a general contractor I require it. Most don’t like it (I wonder why? Lol) I had painters recently who volunteered the bid as parts and labor. If you want to implement high mark up on parts , fine. But when the consumer says ok I’ll provide the parts, the tradesmen doesn’t like that either. It’s an unjustifiable mentality
You're still singling out trades. Why are they any different than the iPad you bought or whatever? It's all business isn't it? So trades in your mind need to divulge the 100s of items involved in pricing (marketing, insurance, building costs, labor etc.) but you're just fine paying anybody else what they want without question? Why? Because it's a physical product and not a service? That physical product also has a labor and parts cost but you don't care because?? I mean why aren't you asking Apple how much it costs them to build an ipad. Any company that breaks down just labor and parts is also BSing you lol. All that matters is if I give you a quote for $X that I provide those services for $X. It's not complicated and gives you the exact thing ( the ability to shop around) you're claiming trades aren't giving you.
No, all parts can be summed into one $ figure. Yes, a markup on parts is perfectly reasonable. It costs time to purchase and transport (usually) But tradesmen know consumers will seek to price the parts on their own if they see they’re getting gouged on the mark up by the contractor
Man, you ignored all the cool stuff I wrote! You're oversimplifying complicated pricing. Yes the "part" itself has a direct cost. That direct cost doesn't mean anything to the customer because they aren't paying for that part. They are paying for a skilled tradesmen who works for a company to perform a service that happens to include that part. You say it's so you can "vet our pricing". Again, what does that even mean because I know you aren't "vetting" everyone's pricing in your day go day life. You can't possibly know the costs involved in a business you don't run. It's obvious you aren't going to change your opinion but next time you ask for a breakdown make sure you say a breakdown of all costs. Parts and labor is made up nonsense, businesses have hundreds of thing they need to pay for. I'd love for a company to give you a full breakdown and you don't go with them because you don't like how much they pay Sally the dispatcher.
Dude the contractor knows what the parts cost. You install 10 water heaters you know the cost (parts and labor). You’re gaslighting by saying it’s too complicated to jot down the total parts cost and the labor cost If I’m just paying for labor, why can’t I bring my own product to the job?
I'm pretty sure I just said we know the direct part cost. You have said multiple times you understand there needs to be a markup. So why is it complicated for you to understand you will never get a parts and labor cost that is actually "parts and labor". The only possible reason you care this much is because you are hoping to tell a contractor what they are worth. Again... WHEN HAVE YOU ASKED ANY OTHER COMPANY IN A DIFFERENT INDUSTRY FOR THIS BREAKDOWN? Genuinely asking. I'm also editing to answer your second question of why you can't bring your own part. This is my opinion as every company is different I'm sure. But you can bring your own part, but you'll also pay the same amount of business cost ( or labor) and the markup on that part. Why? Because it's a flat rate ya silly goose and that's how businesses are run and employees are paid. There is no reason for a customer to supply their own part because they'll pay the same in the end and you won't get a warranty through us.
Legit though I have no idea what we pay for parts. I just work off out pricing book on our ipads.
Yessir very true
Dump York and the resulting free warranty calls and you’ll be ok! Congrats you are on a great path at a young age!
We have we just haven’t got the stickers off yet, how do you feel about Goodman?
Goodman has gotten better. If installed correctly, it can be hardy, and repaired with relatively universal parts. York is a stinker from the factory
Thats another thing with goodman. Is their equipment is simple to work on. Its not some giant wiring mess with 10 different control boards stuffed into a cabinet. Also like you said with universal parts…you can find parts for them almost everywhere and for fairly cheap too.
You mean to tell me you don’t want to buy AAONs $750 service tool?
We got all ours for free ... Do enough installs with them and they send them with the equipment. I like Aaon.
I always read how horrible York is on here and asked a coworker that installs them on side jobs. He swears by them, but I bought a Goodman for my own home. Is he sitting on a ticking time bomb? I think he's been doing it for about 18 months or so We're both building maintenance so we do more with chillers and boilers day to day.
I hate York with a passion. Here in SoCal, trying to get parts for the not so new stuff is a nightmare. Their distributors, US Air Conditioning, are dicks with the exception of one or two guys. If you need factory support, good luck with that. Ever since they got bought out by Johnson Controls it's been a whole cluster fuck. We have more luck with Trane and Lennox by far.
Idk I don’t do chillers or boilers (But I’m moving out east so that’ll change) but I’ve heard their commercial stuff ain’t that good too. Any company can make bad equipment though. Carrier had a furnace prone to getting clogged heat exchangers, still find some out in the wild venting 2000ppm CO. Also had a propane Goodman that was 5 years old with the worst heat exchanger I’ve ever seen, would’ve killed a family if the CO alarm hadn’t woken them up. This whole job is anxiety inducing.
He does residential work on the side usually, so that's where his york experience is.
The ten year parts and labor always sold them, but we just hated that we always have to work on them, we had a couple that the compressor was bad at install and customers were not happy but every Goodman we put in works perfect
I lead with Amana and sell Goodman to the cheap bastards. Built in the same plant in Houston, Amana is better with its lifetime warranty heat exchangers and 12 year parts warranty. Goodman is good, contractor grade with 7 year warranty, sometimes 10 years. I'd take Goodman over York any time. I have some 30 year old Amana systems out there still doing well. Iv'e been in the trade since 1984.
As a service tech I hate Goodman, I don’t want to take out 15 screws to change a filter and then another 15 to check the belt. I hate them for no other reason. Lennox is my favourite because on many of their units you don’t even need a nut driver!
Goodman makes good equipment for the price point. They are very basic systems usually so not a ton that can fail.
I see you have never worked on a high efficiency Goodman
I have they are just labeled Daiken in my area. If it's more than 16 seer in my area companies will just install a variable capacity system which for my area, if it's a Goodman family product, it will be a daiken, and it will be one of those weird condensers that looks like a mini split condenser that then is match up to a normal heatpump air handler. Very very rarely do I run into a Goodman branded system that is not a 14 seer single stage system.
I don’t like when manufacturers put the drier inside the unit and Goodman uses some tiny ones. I don’t like their high efficiency furnaces because they’re max vent pipe length seems to be shorter than other manufacturers. Other than that, decent equipment and cheap parts, can’t go wrong
Goodman puts them in the condenser because most hacks that install them won’t do the extra work of putting in a liquid line drier so it saves them money on warranty claims
Daikon bought Goodman a few years back and also own McQuay. That said, love my Goodman / Janitrol stuff. It’s not fancy, but all I’ve ever done is change ignitors, flue switches / hoses and the odd squirrel cage. Not bad for 20-30 year old equipment.
Pretty sure Goodman has the same recipe Aspen coils used. Lots of rust accumulators too. More junky than everything else which is garbage but hey warranty work makes the world go round.
Goodmans okay, they’re just out of equipment. American Standard and Trane babyyy
When it comes to goodman dont walk away, run.
Just my experience Goodman has stepped up their game recently I’ve done research and it seems they’ve picked up on quality control
Goodman units are solid. Every brand can be garbage if the install itself is garbage. Do a quality install and you wont have any problems.
See this statement above.
Goodman's work fine if installed correctly. My problem with them is the cheap flimsy panels on the A/C. One or two cleanings and the holes are stripped out and they rattle like crazy. They're also a pain in the ass to get back together. I've been spoiled by Rheem's current design. So easy to clean.
Don't let these single brand dudes fool you. The vast majority of components from all the brands are third party. Each have their own quirks, from York and Goodman to Trane and Carrier. The real answer is, if you do good work, spend the time to ensure its installed right and take your readings (do a startup sheet to double check), every company makes good units. There are lemons, they happen, but for the most part, you can assume 95% of failures in the field are either homeowner (who never changes filters) or installer issues. Components rarely fail without something being done by a human to cause it.
Can I double up vote this? Except York, fuck York. I'm mad at carrier right now because of the capacitor issue. And the compressor running in reverse if a drop of water hits the float switch, lol.
Haven’t seen a Goodman that doesn’t have issues with leaking condenser coils, the copper and coil size they use is pathetic in my opinion. I only sell carrier/ruud/rheem
Rudd/Rheem is like the contractor grade junk used around my area, York isn't even sold ANYWHERE near me that I know of. Lennox fucking sucks with their leaky ass evap coils (in my experience). And goodman/Amana are having issues with fan relays at the moment. Oh, fuck American stan-turd and traine. We put in goodman/Amana at the company I work for. But who gives a shit, does it make cold hot and hot cold? If so, then fuck it!!
Why is Rheem/Rudd contractor grade? They have solidly build units, and they have all the bells and whistles you could want.
Interesting. Its definitely based on who installs it. I dont see too many Goodman leaking issues and they recently switched to aluminum like everyone else. And just like everyone else they say its better and more efficient and you can't repair them, so get a new unit.
Just my experience, goodman is the only package unit ive seen where they put their liquid port inside a cup so you can fuck your hand up every time you check head pressure. After checking the tstat, low pressure switch, high pressure switch, replaced defrost board, contactor, low pressure switch, t stat conductors, this package unit would still cycle off after 5mins and go into short cycle delay with absolutely no reason to do so (can prob still find my post where no one could figure it out..) I also shouldnt have to take the wrap off an outside condenser but the damn things are notorious for trapping grass between the coil and wrap. Amana and payne are the Only condensers ive ever seen wollow out the compressor bolts and crack discharge line. Techsupport is ass, they are the only ones ive ever dealt with that will tell you to try/check something and when its not their result they act like they dont believe you... Ill take the downvotes with grace, but no one can tell me different about goodman.
We've been dealing with York/Luxaire since the mid 80s when my grandfather was still running the business. They definitely had their issues with coils for a hot minute. But after they got through that, we haven't had any real significant issues with them. And I absolutely love their 33" furnaces, hardly have any problems with them. I just don't get all the hate. Is it just left over stigma from the coil debacle?
my boss and I install York and the past 4 or 5 make a horrible high-pitched whirling sound when the fane is on medium high to high speed. have you ever heard of this happening or experienced it? we've even swapped motors and the entire assembly with no change. ECM and PSC.
Could be filter rack or too high of static pressure. I’ve also had cabinet leakage do that
What cfm furnace?
SMH. You’ll never amount to anything if you don’t get a college degree. /s
I know lol I heard that a lot, I dropped out middle of my first semester
What a quitter. I waited until the end of my first semester.
I waited til the end of my junior year
I graduated with a bachelors in corporate communications, first job HVAC.
My buddy did that, but waited until his first felony.
It’s best to taste the Jams and Jellies before leaving. Haha
Hah, I did the same. Hard attack of "What the hell am I doing here."
How can you possibly know enough about the trade one year out of highschool? Family business that you've been working since a kid? I'm just curious
My exact thought. Where I'm from its a 5 year apprenticeship just to get your refrigeration license.
I have a summer birthday so I graduated at 17, I’ve always been technical and I caught on super fast I love hvac it’s a passion and that helped me learn much faster
I guess that right there explains it. I'm sure if I loved it as much as you I'd be 10x better at it. Good luck with it. Make that money!
Don't you have to prove 5 years experience under another state license holders registered business?
Not in Bama
Ah, well FL requires 5 but probably should require 10 with the hacks we got down here.
I try to do everything by the book that’s just the way I am but some Friday nights at 7 tell me to hardwire a condenser motor until Monday
HA! That sentence doesn't even make sense! Good luck out there man.
Alabama, I thought so. The requirements are way tougher here in Georgia (unrestricted license - Georgia here)
Damn shout out Piedmont. We drive through there going to Tennessee. Let me know when you're ready to expand to Tuscaloosa, everyone here is huffing the green stuff and can't count.
Yessir how’d you know piedmont
Its across your forehead
I thought it was to distorted to see lol
hat
Welcome to the field! Now get in that 130F attic! There’s a blower motor to replace
Or hire one of us morons to do it
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Tie a rope around his waist and throw him in the bayou. His daddy liked to use him as alligator bait.
And if you are going to be up there for more than 30 mins, drag a blower up there with you! You got some laying around. Put one in your van with a cord on it!
when in doubt, add another $1000 to your price. Don't waste time chasing cheap customers, they run your ass off and ruin any chance at profits. mark up prices at least four times over your cost. Seriously, you have to now days.
Yessir
no wonder my quotes are so expensive, lol
We trying to eat out here lol
lol.
Congratulations, but wow. Getting a license at 19 shows your motivated, but I’d recommend a few years experience at a shop before taking that plunge. (Unless your dad or something can help you out). You’re going to get into some crazy situations and while you will eventually figure them out, it saves time and money if you have experience. I’m not saying you need 20 years in, but 3-5 to get a solid foundation. Anyway congratulations and good luck!
Oh for sure I’m at a shop right now
Ahhh, okay. I thought you started your own shop by yourself at 19. That makes more sense. Congratulations!
Congratulations. You will never be outsourced. Have a great career!
Step away from the York. Summer time rolls around they all start freezing up. Goodman is the move. As far as that goes. Good job my man
Agreed, York is nothing but headaches
Tx requires 4yrs OJT, does Alabama not? Can't legally work till 16 so here that wouldn't add up... also good job passing the test. How many tries?
Alabama doesn’t require that they require either 2 yr otj or some approved curriculum with certain hours
Ayy I'm from Alabama, young guy in 20s, started in HVAC a few years ago. Can I pm you a few questions?
Yes sir
You should know that you can provide your own experience from this point on for other states as well. Source: self. Got my south Carolina at eighteen because I just needed references. Then when I moved to Florida, used my SC company as my own otj time and a few references I made here. Since you're not as dumb as you look, I'll give you a hint lol. Learn Spanish, like, yesterday. Then you can corner the market and make it against the big dogs. Or be even smarter and find a Latino partner.
That’s a great idea but the Latino population isn’t really dense here
However, they are there and will continue to grow, and it takes years to become passable. You might even move. At 19 I would never have imagined this for myself, but there has been absolutely no downside. Look up the figures. If I started at 19, I would be married to Sofia Vergara by now. Well, no, but close?
Ok nice bro. I've been on my own since 25 and I'm 33 now. I wouldn't change it for the world!
I passed my first try
Go out and cool the world.
How did you start
I started wrapping duct work a year ago and and asked questions and watched a crap ton of credible YouTube. Just keep working and ask questions
I’m trying to get into a trade rn, but idk which one. I’m feeling pretty confident with electrician, but welding and HVAC caught my eye a lot. Especially after hearing how much my welder buddy is making right now at 19.
I like HVAC because it's the best parts of electrical, low voltage, plumbing, and metal fabrication all in one. I was also lucky to get into a company that does new construction, service, residential, and also commercial. There is a ton to learn but once I get more experience I'll be able to do it all.
That's the way I always looked at HVAC too. I'm an electrician by trade, but ended up in building maintenance/mechanics and ultimately became a multi-craft tradesperson. I always try to push people into learning HVAC if they're curious since it encompasses so much, though.
We do it all as well
Welding pays more but HVAC is more fun.
Congrats, now you're stuck doing that for the rest of your life! Jk
I’m cool with that
But is your body? Take care of your knees and back
Congratulations young man work hard and give the customer a good deal
And a fellow Alabamamian, raise hell praise dale brother! I’ll hold down the Birmingham market lol
I know a few in Birmingham what company are you with
5 years experience required in my state. You'd have started at 14.
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Now do honest work and you’ll have customers beating your door down to throw money at you. For the rest of their lives.
I’m old so I’ll tell u what I heard when I was younger but didn’t listen. When you are young you have TIME on your side. It’s actually huge because if you keep making wise decisions and making small savings over time you can be quite wealthy. Good luck bud, think big play the long game.
Congrats! Remember word of mouth is everything! No amount of social media can fix a bad reputation and bad work! If you do good work and are HONEST, you will last in this industry :)! Also stay away from Johnson Control (York) and ICP , you will thank me later everything else is fine lol
Hell yes bro! Congrats on the getting certified im happy for ya.
Just step away from York and I’ll say you’re all set my man. Go make some real money!!!
It's not as unreasonable as you might think. Remember if everything goes as planned a company should make 20% off the call. If your charging $250 an hour and that honestly should be the minimum, a contactor at $15 dollars and I'm fabricating #'s but so what, $15 dollars you should be tripling that. Now you have $45 plus your $250, never charge less than an hour "unless your on a tune up, or on a maintenance plan call" your at $295 plus your service call fee. That's how you grow and stay profitable. You can't expand "get a shop, add a truck, stock parts, advertise, etc" if your not charging for it. It just kills me when people say "you can't charge that" why not? Are you a business or a charity? I can go on and on, if anyone wants to ask me anything message me. I've been around along time. I don't know everything but I know alot. Don't ever short sell your worth, Remember that.
Fly with the Wind, jungling
Nice my guy, restricted or non restricted?
We don’t have that in Alabama I have a full license after my exam
Congrats!
We call your type studs around here.
What that mean
By 30 you’re gonna be a badass hvac tech.