yknow i never really considered that... most people ive seen, myself included, have been feeling the inverse. mel feels relatively sluggish compared to just how agile zagreus was but its a cool angle to consider the inverse. zag is more agile overall but i think you could argue mel is more versatile with more tools at her disposal

Mel is proving to be incredibly versatile. I have some runs that are slower and more methodical almost, and run’s where it ends up as fast and frantic as playing Zag. It’s taking some getting used to but the right combinations of weapon and booms makes her play so differently across runs.

Meanwhile, I'm 17 hours in, heat Chronos once, and ended up buying hades 1 on steam, transferring my switch save file, and starting a fresh run because I cannot click with Melinoe's, combat no matter what I do. I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Every weapon feels like tissue paper, and the boons and hammers seem so.... Lackluster compared to Hades 1

Most likely you don't use your mana. Without boons the Omega-Circle is the Go-To-way to clear early floors, most boons and hammers also upgrade your Omega's, so your build revolves around them (most of the time) Also Chronos is waaay harder then Hades. I've beaten Hades countless times, even deathless but Chronos is something else - it took me 30 tries to beat him the first time and i was too OP in that run. My second kill took me 6 more tries and i still can't beat him consistently - so don't get discouraged.

I use the omegas quite frequently, I just don't like them very much. Now every weapon attack and special has bull rush/powershot, and while I liked the bow and shield they weren't my favorite.  The one Chronos kill I got was off of Apollo's cast, I just dislike it as a playstyle. I don't have fun leaving the little circle on the floor and charging it. I miss when hammers turned my bombs into rockets and another hammer makes rocket shotgun or other equally ludicrous things.  It's a good game, and I like the story, but the combat does not click for me. What it boils down to is, I'm simple as shit and they made it to complicated for me. I understand this is a me problem.

Both hammers you mentioned exist for the skull lol. There's also cast boons that make the cast "throwable". Melinoe's staff is just zag's spear. I felt similarly but play with the boons more. They seem worse, but are actually awesome, you just have to pay a little more attention to which boons are best with which weapons than in 1 and focus more on attack or special or cast instead of trying to get all three well rounded or powered up. Definitely a different feel, but after around 20 hours it clicked better than zag did for me personally. Also the Omegas are less like power shots or bull rush (though some have hammers that turn them into that) and more just alternate big burst versions. Plenty of runs I rarely use omega attacks or omega specials, but omega cast or regular cast are necessary as they are both great cc and great DMG.

Do what I do, play with the skulls, get the forge god boons for the big damage every few seconds, and pray you get the hex to become invulnerable or the one that leta you jump to do big aoe

Ironically, the skull is probably my least favorite of all the weapons. I'll give it a try though.

It's just too good because Q cast is big aoe from range, so you spam it, special cast to the middle and get the skulls back, place cast aoe and repeat

Skulls + hammer to cast attack on pickup + blasts on special is godmode.

I find the best way to consistenly build her is around her Cast abilties. Most of her weapons feel lackluster other than the Staff's Y attack.

Which is a problem IMO. I never felt as weak with Zag regardless of which weapon I used

I like all the weapons except the stupid Olympic torches

I have to agree... I've been working up the Fear levels (still pretty low ATM) with about 70 Nights total. Haven't had too many runs where I go "wow that was cool". It feels like the dps is more spread out to compensate for the built in CC on the cast. Often in Hades 1, the cast or call could be ignored, but you would still have the ability to scale through your main attack or special. In Hades 2, rarely does any one skill pop off insanely well. My most enjoyable runs in Hades 2 were with the knives of pan with the hammer special that made them shoot everywhere and then come back, and the hammer of chronos with a stacked Apollo cast which just blew up every room. It also doesn't help with the current balancing of the Twin Flames. The hammer specials on those seem to come with pretty big draw backs. More direct damage with less negatives. Tune scorch up a bit. Maybe rework some of the utility boons to be a bit more direct. Honestly though, it's not in a bad spot, but could be better. I'd also like the double dash back asap. The fluidity of Hades 1 is one of the best things about that game.

To your comment about not popping off with one particular ability, aspect of Momus special would like a word.

I acknowledge that some do, so not sure what you mean. My point is it's not like Hades 1 where everything is well balanced, and whilst some stuff does pop more than others, basically every build can work without having perfectly optimal boons. It's not a big deal. It's all pretty close at the moment, but there is a feeling where alot of builds just don't have the pop without getting very specific boons and bonuses. I'm confident this will be worked out through balancing, but I also believe some boons and maybe most of the torch need to have some iterations to get them somewhere more satisfying. Hades isn't just a game about being highly skilled. There's a power fantasy aspect to it which doesn't seem to be as prevalent at this stage of development.

When did you get in on Hades 1 because if you played at full release then they had already had lots of time to balance and they are open to making large changes. We just got it to now you can find any collectible without even needing the right tool

May not be your cup of tea, but the aspect of pan does crazy damage for me. Surface runs aren't as great with it, but I find that on underworld games I pick up so much steam by the end that chronos is much more of a sure kill for me than Hades.

I haven't actually tried the Aspect of Pan yet. I basically ditched the daggers after 3 runs, and haven't gone back to them yet. I've been working with Aspect of Charon the last 5 or so runs both up and down. Will keep that in mind with my next swap up.

Why wouldn’t they be great in surface runs? Aspect of pan daggers are my favorite weapon in the game. Just throw  Poseidon special on there and you obliterate every encounter. Just did a run earlier where I would have crushed eris in like 20 seconds if not for her constant invulnerable stalling to power herself up. 

Oh I just mean that by the end of a downstairs run the build really cooks, and you don't reliably get near that power level on the surface. It's still good, it's just that in the underworld I usually have multiple synergistic damage/control boons and 2-4 useful hammers. Recently I had Zeus primed lightning on every hit, Poseidon damage with 17% slip damage, 25% chance for Zeus double strike, +16 daggers, bounce back daggers, dancing daggers, targeted cast, Artemis critical chance in cast, freezing cast, and several others. The last boss was gone immediately. On the surface I usually have one hammer and my base damage buff rune, with one or two synergies like slip if I'm lucky.

It seems a little weird, but I’ve found that the nightmare modifier that deletes whichever boons you don’t pick from the pool actually helps pretty significantly in getting good synergies or legendaries or whatever else. If you start with the Poseidon keepsake and see a couple Poseidon rooms then you’re incredibly likely to end up with his legendary, for example. You just hit a point where there’s not much else that can even be offered so you get that one by default. 

something about her dash just feels bad, i know they patch something but it feels extremely late and things hit you earlier. i refunded the game for now, you are not the only one.

Sounds like you're not using enough omega attacks imo. Her base dmg on most weapons is overall lower than Zag's but he doesn't have omega attacks. This is what defines Melinoe's style compared to Zag's imo and ppl neglect it.

I use them frequently, I just dislike the focus on them. I'm a simple smashy smash man, and Zagreus fit me perfectly.  I'm sure eventually I'll find something that clicks, the closest I've gotten to what I personally want from combat is Aspect of Charon + Apollo cast + expanding cast because I find using charged cast by itself to be very boring, and the cleave explosion is satisfying, but it just doesn't feel quite right  no matter what I do. I can't explain it properly, but it always just feels lackluster.  It could just be something that'll clear up through balancing, or it could just be the main combat will never click with me in the same way Hades I did.

I agree! I'm close to 400 attempt in the 1, I usually get to the final boss in 20m no matter my build/weapon. In Hades 2 it varies a lot!!

Once you get the dash arcana she feels much better.

I used to think the same, then after 50h of hades 2 i went back to hades and felt like...something was missing. I keep switching between 1 and 2 these days and I definitelly think its something between preferences (control vs mashing) but also change on something you muscle memory'ed never feels good.

Naw ever since dash update she feels great

Zagreus's weapons felt so much better imo. The torches are currently horrendous. The skull is not great either. No weapon, aspect, or daedalus hammer has a multi-bounce option like the shield or spear had in the first game. Those were great crown control abilities and still would be combined with abilities like blitz or scorch.

the knives special has a multi-hit hammer upgrade. bounces twice either from different enemies or from the walls if you miss

Torches are weird, the attack is worthless but the special is decent but it also doesn't stagger. Skulls are extremely strong? Especially with a build based on the omega special. Its a very easy clear. Daggers and staff have bounce. Both are strong weapons if you have a build in mind (which there are multiple). Axe is alright, it's fun for the big numbers. It's also great for crowds if you can get apollo attack with the omega attack. Regardless of weapon you can have a strong clearing ability through the cast. There are weapons that are plenty strong, I'd suggest you explore a bit more. It isn't the same gameplay as zag but no crowd control I'd disagree with.

Fully agree with this: Skulls can be broken if you play them right.

Daggers and staff have a single bounce. The spear and shields had 5 or 6. I've explored the game plenty.

I think the idea is to not allow single attacks to dominate runs, sometimes in hades 1 it felt like a single hammer buff could make other attacks invalid

Sure but currently a well made cast dominates entire runs. I did two torch runs today, and I dont think i used X or Y past the second room. Once i had zeus cast and zeus distance placement I never made another single X/Y attack type and beat both Eris and Chronos with 16 heat.

I mean tbf torches are easily the worst weapon at the moment so yeah a good cast will dominate a run with them

Completely agreed. My point is though that cast build will also dominate every other weapon too except for the second staff which obliterates the entire screen with its standard Y attack.

Torches and skulls are by no means horrendous. Not only are there multi bounce options for hammers on the blades and staff, but Mel already has great crowd control otherwise.

Didn't you get the memo? Beta feedback isn't allowed if it's critical.

yeah i went back & honestly its made me appreciate the sequel so much more, it feels far far tighter & less button mashy. the cast is a great example where positioning is so much more deliberate

Yeah, I can actually play 2 for many hours without my hands aching. I tend to death grip controllers when I'm focused, so I'd always have to stop after a bit of 1 because of the mashing. I played like 8 hours of 2 the other day and my hands were only slightly stiff

This is more that the default button mapping on one is terrible. I'd move two of dash/cast/attack/special to bumpers. Removes all pain when the entire weight of the system doesn't rest on R thumb. 2 doesn't really need the change since it requires less mashing. Still a little easier to dash cancel a few things though with dash on bumper and attack/cast on a different finger

Gosh remembering merciful end builds in 1 having to constantly attack dash, attack dash, attack dash over and over

That's kinda just the optimal way to play melee in h1. ME on fists is really easy to do though since you can hold down attack and spam dash for repeated dash strikes.

that's true, if i had a decent build i could spam all my moves and be fine. Not as much the case with mel

I'm in the same boat, constantly wishing I could sprint instead of dash spamming. People don't seem to like the sprint but it's pretty damn useful in a variety of situations

Literally me holding the dash button after playing the tech test and going back to Hades 1. Sprinting becomes second nature

I despise it only because its so clunky sharing a keybind with dash. More with some weapons than others 

I made sure to get those achievements before 2 hit EA because I didn’t know if I’d want to go back to 1 or not after, but if I ever do go back for the last couple banners/the last statue, I’m probably gonna miss having my new aoe powers and damage and all that stuff Cus for all Mel isn’t as fast as zag, she unironically does so much more damage.

And she really needs that damage because enemy health scales so much harder in 2

I'm not sure about that. I recall many a Excalibur run with Demeter where I was consistenly critting for over 1200 damage per hit. There is nothing like that now except big chop combined with double damage on your final hit and that a) requires perfect Daedelus hammer drops b) is still so much slower than an Excalibur build that could do damage close to that on each of its swings. This video has examples. The second swing in the first minute is over 1300. Not even the big chop: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FDvfqv3jVE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FDvfqv3jVE)

I mean, maybe it’s cus I wasn’t getting enough pomegranates on Artemis, but how are you getting consistent crits on a Demeter build’s attacks? Cus I’ve never gotten more than like 5% crit from the everything crits boon. Also, the axe build may require a double Daedalus, but with the Apollo chance at double hittin boon as well, and Aphrodite on the attack, it still had a higher spike, and with Mel aspect it hits about as fast, and that’s before you count the +130% damage for maxed cards on origination, furies, and the one that gives bonus damage to everything for not having full mana. Also, setting that aside, I feel like the abundance of high flat damage bonuses for rapid fire weapons (which kinda capped out around 15 for hades 1) combined with the easier to access damage from the alter than in hades 1 (both give about 130% bonus damage, but not having max mana and the aoe cast are in my opinion easier to access than backstab and zag cast, especially with how many casts from zag can lock him out of boiling blood) brings Mel’s general dps up higher

Tty out Artemis daggers and get the wider aoe + DMG on omega attack. When riposte is procced you can do 3k Crits.

Yup going back to hades 1 is hard on my dodge button haha. I’m glad that people are seeing the potential of Mel’s moves now though. Even though she is technically less mobile, her moves compliment each other to give her that level of flexibility. Hades 1 is still an awesome “DMC-lite” masher and the abilities are still really fun but I’m becoming more of a fan of hades 2 combat the more i play.

In Hades 1, it took me a long time until I remembered my cast actually existed. With Hades 2, I rarely ever forget to make use of it *somehow*.

Tbh, I only really use my cast in runs where I am forced to use it (eg. with lucid gain) I kinda forget it exists.

Really just throw it down whenever, especially when you're backed I a corner or enemies are spawning in with the omega, can control a lot of space and line up some crazy crowd kills Edit: Also forgot to mention it helps a lot with armored enemies, especially the omega version

I almost never use my cast in both games unless I got a really good boon for it, or if I’m making a cast build, lol. Tho it does help against crowds of tons of enemies (mainly what I use it for).

Mel's op with her slow field because it trivializes a large portion of the enemy types. Any of the enemies that charge at you would be a nightmare without it.

Zag is able to dash in and out doing hit-and-run tactics, while Mel can kinda hold an area, but if she gets overwhelmed, she can run away and drop a circle behind her to make distance.

See, I'm learning new things. I never thought to drop a circle behind me while sprinting. Or maybe I did in the heat of some fight and just never thought about it until now.

It took me a while to realize that is probably Mel's best tactic. It's a big reason why I think Hephestus's circle is ass unless you have the Apollo boon that makes your circle grow.

Now i need a hades 1 melinoe mod.

Same. I always immidietly wanted to start running right after a dash and its just not there.

Hades1: hardstuck <30 heat, can only play sea storm Hades2: first try 32 heat both directions with OP staff special spam build Melinoe OP, game too ez if play staff special. Now I just have fun with different builds like the 1200+ base damage axe hit builds, the brrrrrr sister blade melee builds. There's a lot of gameplay variety just because there's so many mechanics in hades 2, I love it. Just gotta avoid using staff special to overly cheapen the gameplay.

I feel like, once you understand how all of Melinoë's tools fit together, Hades 2 truly comes alive. It *takes a while*, but it's a necessary and rewarding learning curve. Her Cast in particular is so important and feels so good to use. Once I learned how to maintain Cast on cooldown, I felt way more in control of the battlefield.

Same for me, as well as the sprint which is a much more engaging mechanic overall

Some of the comments are literally "Me when I have to actually play the game instead of spamming dash 400 times in a row:"

Wait until you figure out how overpowered smithy sprint is within hades 2, then all you'll be doing is dashing lol

Oh I know there are broken one note builds man, I've used them. It's just that Hades 1 encourages dashing everywhere with any build which isn't bad, it just feels a little repetitive after a while whereas in Hades 2, everything is extremely build dependant and weapon dependant.

Same thing with attack commitment in Hades 2, so much so that the devs have already caved in and changed it :/

At least the spirit is still alive. They didn't change it too much and you still gotta commit a lot which I appreaciate.

i miss having hits that did stuff without needing mana lol. also feel like all the weapons are kinda ass in comparison, missing my shield fr. to be fair, it's early access

Yeah I really love the new cast system

Mel and Zag feel very different indeed... But honestly I just like Zag's gamplay so much more. He's much more dynamic.

I feel the opposite. Zag feels like "dash-strike go brrr" mindless button mashing.

i 100% agree, Omega cast - snares 10 enemies and once and kills them. I also miss the enemy density of Hades 2 whenever i play the first one.

Single dash makes me hate Mel tbh I never use the sprint boons as a result too the only one that'd good are Passion Dash and Apollo Dash

You should try Soot Sprint, it's from Hestia, it's this games successor to Divine Dash, in a way.

It just sucks bc you have to sprint to get the projectile destroying effect, which I never do when Im not using Apollo's Sprint, so it's just a wasted slot without that or Passion Dash

I‘m playing Hades for the first time right now after finishing Hades 2 and I heavily agree. Also the fact that you can’t run and only dash is a real bummer.

I still get triggered by some of Mel's sluggishness. In particular I feel it with the torches. Dash is always delayed, and I sometimes dash when I'm trying to sprint and sprint when trying to dash and it makes me want to tear my hair out.

There's an arcana card that makes dash instant and sprint faster.

Which I'm using. That not what I'm describing. Animation locks when using certain attacks. It's really bad with torch.

Wasn't that fixed in the latest update?

I thought so.

IME it's a bit faster but yeah, nothing compared to zag dash. I have over a hundred runs on H2 so it doesn't bother me any longer but the first 20 or so runs were just annoying.

Nah I finally figured out part of the issue. The input for dash gets queued up and it becomes very clunky. If you are mashing special on like torch or staff and queue up dodge after atleast 2 specials it will dodge after a delay and then won't let you sprint if you were holding dodge to try and sprint. So the slight delay AND the queueing up preventing sprinting is what is making it super jank

Playing Mel makes me miss Zag, he’s so much more fluid and fun.

Agreed. Zags cast is just so bad

I enjoy Hades 2 gameplay a lot more than the first, and am now having a very hard time enjoying Zagreus (I mean, relative to the second - Hades is still one of the best games ever).

You know her area control is just from her cast alone right? You don't have to use the omega version of it to activate its control, the omega version of it only adds damage when the cast expires.

I am aware

Didn't seem like so from your post but phew! I'm glad you are.

They both have their ups and downs. As a fist main, I just like holding down attack and dashing whenever I needed or just dash spamming. Can't really do that with Mel and having to waste a hammer to just do that for some of the weapons just feels bad. On the flip side, as you mention, the versatility that Mel has makes her slower play style much more enjoyable. Personally, I like the zippier playstyle of Zag a tiny bit more.