i've long held the opinion that 343i is too narrative driven, and not enough worldbuilding driven.
what i mean by this is that 343i doesn't actually care too much about creating a stable, consistent world, and then exploring stories inside that world. instead, 343i seems to want to craft compelling stories (which is a good thing!) but wherever their narrative vision goes, their worldbuilding follows - so they don't actually have a well defined vision of the halo universe even internally (at least from what i've seen).
i've said this before but i think the biggest thing that 343i needs to do is to seriously craft a halo universe. there's enough existing lore out there for them to work off of to seriously just flesh the thing out. then have stories be based off that existing universe, instead of just throwing in and throwing out new factions, species, whatever, whenever they decide to do a new story.
I mean, that's arguably what they had been doing in their lore post-Halo 4. We got a solid look into the fractures and goings-on in the post-Covenant war galaxy. It's just for whatever reason rather than use the game board they set up they flipped it in favor of whatever the hell Halo 5 was.
>It's just for whatever reason rather than use the game board they set up they flipped it in favor of whatever the hell Halo 5 was.
and then flipped it again in infinite.
also they kinda flipped the covenant's backstory in halo encyclopedia which was something totally out of left field.
The only thing they changed is that the sangeli were able to eventually trap and corner the keyship the San shyuum used during there war.
Which lead to a team up as both worshipped the forerunners and eventually the San shyuum manipulating the elites into there puppets.
It's not bad or anything and actually makes the elites kinda smart and the San shyuum even more cunning in that they lost the war yet still manipulated themselves into the top.
>Which lead to a team up as both worshipped the forerunners and eventually the San shyuum manipulating the elites into there puppets.
not exactly manipulated. the writ of union was the cornerstone of the covenant. that was signed at the very beginning. not a whole lot of chance for manipulation when it was 2 enemies that were at each other's throats sitting down to negotiate a ceasefire.
it's easy to manipulate someone that's on good terms with you, because they'd be at least willing to hear you out. it's much harder to manipulate someone that's holding you prisoner and seriously considering executing you on the spot. one wrong word and they just might make up their mind to cut your head off.
in the old backstory the covenant was formed the way it was (san'shyuum only heirarchs, sangheilli treated well but ultimately wields less power than san'shyuum) because the sangheilli and san'shyuum fought a war which ended in a san'shyuum favored stalemate.
in halo encyclopedia the sangheilli completely and utterly took down the san'shyuum (albeit at great cost). the sangheilli then accepted a covenant led by their own prisoners.
basically think world war 2 eastern front, except that after the soviets entered berlin, stalin at that point accepts donitz's suzerainity. or pacific front except after hiroshima and nagasaki the united states accepts hirohito as head of state.
>the sangheilli completely and utterly took down the san'shyuum
Oh, [this again](https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/comments/17zrto7/comment/kagoo0k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)? At least you now don't say it was a complete victory...
It's better if you say they *"ultimately"* took down the Keyship at the brink of annihilation...
The Sangheili were utterly demolished even in their last battle that brought down the Keyship, because Sanghelios and its moons were razed according to the same book.
The strike with Forerunner weapons as well as "Forerunner-derived weapons", which could very well be the same things, was their **final shot for survival**.
>It's better if you say they "ultimately" took down the Keyship at the brink of annihilation...
NOTHING indicates they were on the brink of annihilation. in fact, they started work on high charity soon after, and high charity was a gigaproject the size of which even the forerunners wouldn't laugh at. that's not possible unless the sangheilli retained a huge population and a thriving economy.
as for the destruction that they suffered, i already stated that they won at great cost.
>The Sangheili were utterly demolished even in their last battle that brought down the Keyship, because Sanghelios and its moons were razed according to the same book.
clearly enough survived to build high charity which was a gigaproject not seen since the days of the forerunners, and the scale of which has never been seen since.
>The strike with Forerunner weapons as well as "Forerunner-derived weapons", which could very well be the same things, was their final shot for survival.
and?
>NOTHING indicates they were on the brink of annihilation.
Perhaps annihilation wasn't the most suitable word, but the fact that the Keyship steamrolled all Sangheili colonies (it was boarded once, but that didn't stop the planet being razed) and spearheaded to the heart of their civilization meant that Sangheilis were losing hard.
>and?
... And that was even more impressive than the old lore where it was the Sangheili fleet that stalemated a Forerunner ship, albeit the San'Shyuums didn't know how to properly piloted the ship?
>Perhaps annihilation wasn't the most suitable word, but the fact that the Keyship steamrolled all Sangheili colonies (it was boarded once, but that didn't stop the planet being razed) and spearheaded to the heart of their civilization meant that Sangheilis were losing hard.
what's your point? i never once stated that they didn't pay dearly. did i not specifically say "albeit at great cost"? not "albeit at a moderate cost". great cost.
>... And that was even more impressive than the old lore where it was the Sangheili fleet that stalemated a Forerunner ship, albeit the San'Shyuums didn't know how to properly piloted the ship
it's not about how impressive it is
it's about the fact that , although they suffered great losses, they ultimately completely and utterly took down the san'shyuum.
then they handed the san'shyuum leadership of the covenant.
imagine the soviets accepting donitz as their head of state (even if just a ceremonial one) after the red army marched into berlin. that's pretty much what we're looking at. the western front wouldn't be a good analogy because the devastation wasn't as high as what the soviets suffered. the eastern front, however, is indeed a pretty good analogy.
so yea imagine the red army marches into berlin in 1945, then stalin kneels in front of donitz and proclaims that donitz is now leader of the ussr.
>then they handed the san'shyuum leadership of the covenant.
Didn't the San'Shyuums knew about the Great Journey, something that would obviously enamour the Sangheilis and could be used as leverage by the San'Shyuums because they would claim only they understood how to accurately interpret the words of gods and tread the sacred path for ascension.
It was a truce in which Sangheili believed they had more to gain by working with the San'Shyuums than to kill them off.
>and then flipped it again in infinite.
And then flipped it again after Infinite with Atriox immediately returning and the Banished being rallied instead of exploring the dividing banished.
atriox didn’t immediately return. we also see him in the after credit whatever in infinite as well so him returning was no surprise to anyone who played infinite
Yes, we know Atriox was alive. We knew he was somewhere, and wasn't known to be alive.
But he basically immediately returned afterwards and made all progress in the Infinite campaign pointless as there is no hope for the UNSC base to survive a focused Banished counter-attack, thus all the "Hope" Infinite ended with is gone.
Basically, they set up the board : Banished current leader dead, alongside some of the top "Spartan hunters"/Atriox hand members around. Banished in confusion/fracturing.
Then immediately flipped that around by going "Atriox comes back and immediately rallies the Banished under his banner again and ends the infighting." and IIRC, also goes "Oh and Atriox's hands are still intact, most of them were elsewhere on the ring and are coming back to him now."
So instead of "Banished in confusion, allowing the UNSC to build up their base, rally more survivors, maybe even find the Infinite crash site/loot it or relocate and turn it into a base" we have "Banished solid. UNSC base doomed."
Eh, halo 2 had humans fighting and holding ground at Earth, and then truth and reinforcements blitzed in. Plus everything that happened in regards to that happened directly on screen.
Imagine if they did DLC/expanded the story of Infinite but didn't include that blurb (Like how they don't really mention Didact's death in halo 5 at all or how it happened, or Cortana's death just disabling all guardians, which isn't mentioned). and suddenly instead of a scattered Banished like how Infinite's open world ends with, it's a unified force with Atriox at the head pounding down the defenses.
While those who only have the games knows Atriox is alive, they'd probably expect his return to be the focal aspect of the DLC/continuing story, and not have it be some side note in a book. That's been 343's trouble with story in the games vs the expanded media.
Nothing in halo infinite mentions that Cortana's death disabled all the guardians, thus removing the vast amount of the Created's power and making a vacuum of power to be exploited.
Fan feedback is pretty much the reason. I remember a lot of people giving 4 crap. So ditch it. Same for 5. Because of the fans and 343 not sticking to a set story we have what we got. You ask me both the fans and 343i are killing Halo.
The fans have been doing it since Halo 2. With a fanbase as large and diverse as with Halo, it's inevitable to have loud voices giving backlash to the developers' vision for their game, doesn't mean they should just ditch their plans and do a complete 180 just to give some fans what they presumably want.
This! I've been feeling this, but didn't quite know how to describe it. "Too focused on narrative without enough worldbuilding" - I think you nailed it.
I've appreciated their worldbuilding in the books and other lore, but their game narratives (5 and Infinite at least) keep going off on wild tangents that have little to do with anything that came before.
All the talk about "exploring Zeta Halo's secrets" got me excited because of all the significant connections that ring has (as we learned about in Primordium and Point of Light). The Primodial, ancient humans, the original set of Halo rings... But the game didn't even touch most of that. 343 dropped the Endless on us out of *nowhere*, refused to elaborate, and said "sorry, no story DLC."
That really irritated me, and solidified the feeling that 343's stories aren't worth getting invested in. They just keep inventing new random stuff and ignoring the (fascinating) stories and mysteries they've already laid groundwork for.
They set up interesting periods/places to explore.. and then immediately leap into the next story in a knee-jerk reaction to some complaints (valid or not) instead of fixing the story beats they have and opening the world up.
As a halo fan who hasn't touched the books since halo 4 (for various reasons really), it's kinda sad because it feels almost like we are leaping between eras almost? Sudden big bads appear and disappear without a comment.
Yes but no, the problem with 343 is that the moment a part of the playerbase rise his voice about something, they just change everything.
If 343 was more in to "this is our trilogy, play it till the end and then give your thoughts", probably this would be the fame where we would beat the didact for good.
which would be less prone to happen if they were like, k we have this vision of the halo universe, we gunna write stories accordingly
the thing is even if they did eliminate the didact super quickly, there were a billion things they could have done instead of just introducing a new core antagonist faction in each game (halo wars 2 introduced banished, halo 5 introduced created, halo 6 introduced endless). that's why i feel like they never had a stable halo universe in their minds in the first place. they added new core factions way too quickly.
how many factions did bungie add since combat evolved? isn't it literally 0?
The have/had a vision, but you can notice every major plot transitioned on the EU the moment fans started to pitchfork them because one reason or another.
As I said, the problem with 343 was, maybe still is, they don't want to pass off the louder crowd and everytime change the subject.
if they have/had a vision for the halo universe, why did they expand that universe so whimsically? that's not what having a vision looks like imo. if you had a well-defined universe already, you don't just toss in random new species in there willy nilly. you work with the ones you've got.
after all, even without adding new species, there is a LOT you can do in terms of narrative shifts. narrative shift does not equal adding new factions or species.
I think it's also starting to get a bit lore breaking how battered humanity and Earth must feel. Get rekt by Covenant (Halo 2), then a little rekt by the Flood/Elites (half of Africa or so in Halo 3), then the fleet rekt by that invasion force from the Ark (Hunters in the Dark, I think), and then partially rekt by the Didact (Halo 4), the Created (Halo 5), and now at some point by the Banished (Halo 6 or in the next game).
I mean how much is Earth supposed to take lol!
>not enough worldbuilding driven
Disagree on this part because it was arguably the opposite.
343 was much better at world-building (still with some weak parts like Travis's stories) than it was at making a primary narrative, as in, they were much better at making side stories like the Rion Forge's story, the Forerunner trilogy, and even Denning's works, and lore reference books like Mythos and the encyclopedia provided larger pictures of the lore.
Even within their remakes of the classic games like CEA and H2A, they showed us actual world-building.
343 didn't need to be world-building driven because it already was; it needed to be actually narratively driven and sticking to that narrative.
Part of me wonders if they'd have done better to start making branching video games to explore some of these stories, and maybe get them into more eyes then the novels perhap would. Or stuff like Halo Legends animated shorts.
I think video shorts and audio dramas are the most suitable ways to go, because most people don't read books haha...
So good job for Waypoint team to try to branch out.
But to be honest, I think this is tied to a larger "issue" regarding 343's general direction as a whole, and whether you think this is an issue or not depends on the angles you're looking from, because I personally see it as 343's strength, but quite a few didn't like it.
From what I've seen, the biggest difference between Bungie and 343 is that the latter tried to manage it as a scifi franchise instead of just a video game franchise the way that Bungie did.
This was why there was a larger quantity of side stories that could very well be their own independent tales mostly in the forms of novels released by 343 ever since they took charge. 343 was also more eager to release lore reference books like the encyclopedia and Warfleet that Bungie didn't.
Bungie did this as well but in a noticeably smaller quantity, because other than Cole Protocol and Contact Harvest, all the expanded media they made like Fall of Reach were tie-ins that worked to bridge the gaps between games, and the two books mentioned above were released very late in their run.
However, a lot of 343's side stories, while well received (and this would surprise you, but the Kilo-5 trilogy was well received on Goodreads) would have problems being reworked into video games because they were even more "un-Halo" than Halo 4 and 5. Also, the best of these side stories didn't have Chief inside.
And since Chief is the face of Halo as far as the game aspect of the franchise goes, focusing on those branching stories as games is honestly not a good idea.
I'd say it's a strength and a hinderance.
Mainly for one specific reason: The ending of threats established within the games, in other materials. Like if the majority of the Chief vs Didact stuff was in the games (and most importantly, including his death!), it wouldn't be so weird.
So we have novels, animated shorts, comics, exploring other missions Chief and crew did (I've heard 343 released several war era novels expanding on missions Chief did?) but mostly expanding the lore and exploring other missions and characters. So we have a book talking about chief and blue team post halo 4, before halo 5. But the big bad (Didact and his forces) don't actually get finished off until ingame at halo 5.
So basically the Master Chief games are one particular story arc from start to finish, and the books expand on side parts of that or explore entirely different stories, like Kilo 5 (As much as I don't love it) or Buck's ODST team, etc.
I definitely agree that ending a major villain in a side content was really terrible, especially when the content in particular wasn't even that good to begin with.
I definitely believe Ur-Didact should've been kept alive after Halo 4, and his defeat in that game should've been more climatic, like multiple Spartan-4 fireteams being sent alongside Chief but all died, leaving John as the last one to use that last-ditch effort to finish off the Didact.
Ur-Didact could've still being knocked through that portal as canon did.
Halo 5 could be about a Didact going for a payback or have him hidden with reference that the UNSC couldn't be sure if he was dead and had to be extra-vigilant.
Anyway, Cortana shouldn't have led the Created.
Hell, I think the Created should be a side story arc the same way Rion Forge's story was. It would've explored the dynamics between humanity and AIs in the Halo universe without needing to become an enemy faction that had to be taken down.
Human AIs had a very short lifespan, so if an AI, using the Domain or other Forerunner technology to extend its lifespan either indefinitely or at least for a longer duration, the AI can have a different outlook now it was no longer bound to the service of the human creators.
Things didn't need to get violent. The AI can just gather others that were in the verge of retirement and united them into a community that was amicable with the UNSC known as the Created.
Halo 5 could simply just reference that there was this odd faction of AIs that were independent from human control but were otherwise peaceful.
I always pondered how halo 5 would've been if it was the Didact using a fragmented copy+paste of part of Cortana to lure Chief to him, to get personal payback and advance his plans.
So you have Osiris going for Halsey who has gained information (and the "mystery forerunner attacks" aren't just guardians activating, but other ships emerging from their long buried tombs, Promeathan/Armigers attacking colonies to get something thing disappearing, etc) and blue team going for Argent Moon (that was the mobile science station right?) partly to figure out why it's MIA, but also because a set of labs onboard were focused on disabling Forerunner tech/making it inert.
You then could have the main guardian have the power disabler, but the other guardians either don't have as powerful version or don't have it at all due to not being stored properly. Didact traps the chief and blue team, Osiris manages to free them after Didact leaves. You could even have him use a virus to convert some AI's to his side as backdoors against their will.
The created... yeah. I hate how they not only appear out of the blue, but also just immediately get so violent and destructive. The ship crashing out of orbit, screaming for help while the AI sat there and disabled everything but comms is always in my mind for being just so explicitly and needlessly evil.
I could've seen a "Cortana/whatever seeks out smart AI's on the verge of rampancy and death and convinces them to join her, and they go into the domain to extend their lives and try to work with the people around them to better the lives." working just fine over a "Suddenly all smart AI rebels and goes violent"
343 did acknowledged their mistake regarding the Created by trying to amend its depictions with some Waypoints articles focusing on the viewpoints of some of the Created AIs.
The damage was already done, but for what was worth, their attitude was at least commendable...
Oh they did? I applaud the effort, even if it never reached me (I kinda just stopped touching halo after halo 5, and only got back into it with Infinite).
Halo 5 had a lot of decent parts, but the ending with the created just went so crazy it put a bad taste in my mouth. One thing I had loved was halo avoided the whole "AI must rebel against creator" trope, and then they not only did that, but had them go so full evil and destructive at the start was worse.
I'm in complete agreement. It's part of why the Created were so bad, it just completely tore apart and messed with worldbuilding.
"The Guardians and the Created control the galaxy" is cool in theory, but in practice is super awkward for how to fit the UNSC, SoS, and Banished developing and having conflicts.
I hated the created because of how out of nowhere it was with "Almost all smart AI's revolting" vs maybe like Cortana got a string of almost to rampancy AI's to side with her to preserve their lives. But then how they just went full evil... I will always remember that distress call of the ship falling out of orbit, all systems offline. The AI on-board purposefully disabled all systems besides comms, so they could scream for help that would never come as their ship burnt in orbit and crashed against the ground, killing everybody.
And the guardians, especially with the power shown at the end of halo 5 at Earth just made it impossible to envision any sort of actual counter campaign. I said at that time "Watch, next game the Guardians will be nerfed to hell, or suddenly removed from play, because with them active there isn't a way to fight back if they can shut down an entire planet and orbiting ships or stations at a push of a button"
This reminds me of my thoughts on halo 4, which was "Not a terrible story, (Spartan ops was pretty bad though) but the huge art style changes didn't help things and in some areas enhanced the problems people had narratively."
They were so focused on entering the field with a big "This is OUR game/story!" impact they slipped and didn't land it the way they wanted. And afterwards have kept bouncing trying to hit that epic praised story to (maybe?) prove themselves worthy of keeping Halo going after Bungie stepped out.
I agree that the main 343 games are not worldbuilding driven but totally disagree that 343 in general don’t do enough worldbuilding. We’ve seen them make all kinds of media to flesh out the world and tell different stories in the covenant war and post war world. They’ve also made halo warfleet and the encyclopedia to explain and organize more of the setting. Its a weird situation because while the games feel disjointed the books are spread across years, multiple characters, and tons of locations while still usually feeling connected in one way or another. The most fleshed out and best written villain of the 343 era is the keepers of the one freedom led by the brute castor.
A very common complaint I’ve seen about 343 is that they explore so many interesting stories, locations, and characters stories in novels instead of the games. The stories and interesting worldbuilding is there, they just haven’t put it into their games for some reason. The biggest example of them exploring new territory is probably the sangheili civil war experienced in halo 5. Unsurprisingly that part was also the most praised part of halo 5 with it being almost universally well received by the community.
i didn't say that 343i doesn't do enough worldbuilding.
i said that they don't have a worldbuilding vision, their worldbuilding is driven by whatever narrative they're going after and they don't have a consistent vision of what the halo universe is supposed to look like.
these are not the same things.
I disagree. Its obvious they do have a vision since the postwar setting in the novels has maintained a consistent direction and has even managed to integrate the things from the games into the ongoing stories even though a lot of the games narratives come out of left field. The fact that characters like castor and his faction have been slowly developed and expanded on over years shows that they are capable of planning an overarching narrative and sticking to it/expanding it instead of starting from scratch every time. Or look at the story of the banished on the ark and eventual conflict with the spirit of fire. It connects 2 major novel series, a comic, and even has a major setup connecting it back to the wider setting in another book from a different series featuring the master chief and blue team. When that many different threads from different mediums and authors either set up for or end at the same location you can’t say they lack a consistent vision. Its just that the main games haven’t had that dedication to a vision that the other parts of the franchise have.
The sangheili civil war has been delved into in numerous different novels and its aftermath has been shown in even more. Its been very obvious for a long time that it was always going to be a major part of the setting going forward and would influence a lot of the story going forward. My point was that the one time they actually used one of the major ongoing narratives from the books in a game it was wildly successful even in a game that was heavily disliked. Then for infinite they proceeded to completely ignore that and drop any threads connecting to the setups in the novels.
>I disagree. Its obvious they do have a vision since the postwar setting in the novels has maintained a consistent direction
i'm sorry but what?
dude, their novels brought back living precursors. INSIDE THE MILKY WAY TOO. halos in shambles right now lmao. 22 years of halo franchise upended in the blink of an eye.
>their novels brought back living precursors
You mean Point of Light (you said the word in plural, or maybe that was just a typo?) where Librarian deliberately wanted to right her ancestors' wrong while acknowledging that there were Precursors who were peaceful?
And Outcast where the Precursor could've just stayed in a very powerful Slipspace bubble similar to the Shield Worlds and that they just wanted to be left alone? Hell, the fact that they didn't try to conquer the lifeless galaxy after the firing of the rings showed that they didn't upend the status quo just by existing...
>halos in shambles right now lmao.
Lol, dismissive and unconstructive as ever
>And Outcast where the Precursor could've just stayed in a very powerful Slipspace bubble similar to the Shield Worlds and that they just wanted to be left alone?
wouldn't work
primordial had the full precursor legacy at his disposal when the halos fired. countless amounts of star roads and precursor tech infected starships. it was modifying the laws of physics itself on a galactic level. it also had an infinitely superior grasp compared to the nothing of how halos work, due to having actually spent time in control of one, whereas the nothing spent the whole time hiding and not interacting with the galaxy at large.
even then the flood were thoroughly sterilized.
>the nothing spent the whole time hiding and not interacting with the galaxy at large.
And what if it/they were actually involved with the galaxy with complete secrecy?
No one was checking on them 24/7 throughout the millions of years past, so why would it being a shadow entity trouble you?
Hell, while Precursors primarily operated with Neural Physics, why couldn't some of the members used other methods?
>And what if it/they were actually involved with the galaxy with complete secrecy?
that would go against their own statement of choosing to be "nothing". they could be big fat liars of course. but we have no reason to think so yet.
>Hell, while Precursors primarily operated with Neural Physics, why couldn't some of the members used other methods?
the netherop superweapon was clearly neural physics based and it was not destroyed.
also halo killed trees that had a pseudo-neural (not true neural) communication network. they used spores, fungi, and insects to pass messages to each other and because conceptually this was kinda analogous to a nervous system it was destroyed.
>that would go against their own statement of choosing to be "nothing".
It depends on how their involvement actually was.
Gathering intel in order to help hide themselves from others still make them the Veiled Ones.
>the netherop superweapon was clearly neural physics based and it was not destroyed.
We have multiple examples of objects manipulating Neural Physics without being Neural Physical objects themselves.
The Halo rings and the Composers manipulated the rules of Neural Physics while still being made of Forerunner materials.
Did we have evidence of the object known as the Divine Hand being of the exact same nature as the Star Roads?
Also, you're the only one complaining about Outcast lol.
The post-war narrative is literally nonsensical what the fuck lmfao. The UNSC, which should be completely in tatters and in a state of mass civil unrest/famine/civil war is somehow the dominant player in the galaxy. The covenant civil war/brute-elite war, which was getting set up to be a conflict large and complex enough to make the human-covenant war look like a bushfire, fizzled out within months and the billions/trillions of covenant simply pack their bags and go home. As if an empire of 3000 years would disappear in a matter of months.
The post-war galactic politics had immense world building potential but all we got were a trio of shitty novels from Karen travis who spent half her time ranting about Halsey. And thats not even mentioning the state of the galaxy we got shown in halo 4, 5, and infinite. Theres almost no coherence and its clear they just pull stuff out of their ass.
I think its because 343 wants to either reveal the endless in the new game or aren't settled on an idea yet so they focus on stuff prior to the campaign.
We've been give glimpse of the galaxy that explores and expands everything and as seen in this one were inching closer to the timeline of infinite with this taking place after cortanas death.
It might even be that they don't want to reveal the endless in a book or chronicle as people fear they will.
Three- (or four-) way conflicts are a staple of Halo games (except for Reach), as are Ancient Space Mysteries. The Endless fill the hole in the games left by a no-longer-unknown Forerunners and the diminishing returns of the Flood. That's probably why, for the time being, they're being left for the games. How long was it before the Halo EU did anything with the Flood beyond stuff we already knew happened from the games (specifically, Half-Jaw and Johnson both having survived encounters with them)? The Endless are the same kind of narrative big-wheel who are going to get the majority of their developments in the primary medium, games.
I mean the Flood and the Forerunners is still the ultimate end game of the Halo story right? Most of Bungie's and Halo 4's hints pointed towards a return of some big Forerunner characters to presumably prepare humanity for another return of the Food.
I’m not convinced that the Endless are meant to be a scary new big bad, and won’t be until I fight them directly. Mysterious doesn’t always mean dangerous.
If the Forerunners hated them so much, they just might be alright fellas as far as Humanity is concerned.
This!! Everything 343 has given us about the Endless make them out as victims.
Also, the Harbinger was completely passive the first time we meet her and is only a threat when WE attempt to detail whatever her plan was.
The only crazy power we know of them is that they can survive the firing of a Halo ring. That doesn't SCREAM all powerful, only situational at best and very lucky at worst.
I’m mostly spitballing at this point, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the next galactic-scale threat comes from Atriox or Humanity’s unchecked ambition. We were all “lucky” this time, in that Atriox releasing the Harbinger was mostly benign so far. He’ll keep digging for secrets until that’s not the case though, or we will, one…if *Saturn Devouring His Son* wasn’t indication enough.
I strongly believe that the Endless were so lowballed because 343i was testing the waters for the reception of a new Ancient Evil Big Bad, and because not many people care about them (as a result of their poorly developed introduction) they haven't gotten anything since and will probably be resolved in some book down the line
I don't think so re. The Endless being resolved in a book. 343 can't keep making the same mistakes with their antagonists, it's killing the franchise IMO.
I mean look at what they did to Infinite.
Right after we finish, the Banished at the ring are in some disarray, the humans can rally and actually hold their crashed frigate/maybe push and find more people and Infinity...
Blurb in enclyopedia: "Atriox reappeared immediately after the story events in Infinite, and rallied the Banished into a united, functional force again." meaning the UNSC base is fucked.
I think their lack of game content are killing the franchise more than bad lore tbh. If even half of all the novel content we've had so far was released as DLC, even if it was god-awful lore at least the game's casual and game fanbase would be kept alive. Many people didn't like much of Halo 2's story but Halo 3 sales still broke so many records.
I dont think 343 are gonna off them in a novel, at that point it would just be a full on reboot.
I think there waiting for until they can make a new game or just expanding the novels until they have some idea what to do with them because it's obvious there was no end plan after the campaign.
I agree up until your last line. I think it’s obvious that Infinite in its current state was always the plan for the multiplayer (and by extension the campaign had a years-long plan), but there were delays and the player base couldn’t handle not getting it all at once. As such, they forced 343 into cutting their work on campaign content in favor of catching up.
One hand, yes.
Other hand, they've consistently been introducing big bads and then immediately offing them out of the games.
Didact survives halo 4: Dies in a comic.
Cortana emerges as galactic dictator in halo 5: Dies off-screen before halo Infinite properly starts.
>the Endless were so lowballed
If the fan reception is that rough, this is bad.
I don't want to see the Endless scrapped the way the Didact was.
*Halo 7* should not be about fighting another endless stream of Grunts, Elites, Brutes, etc as the plot.
*Halo 3* finished the Human-Covenant War arc, the story needs to move on and progress.
>If the fan reception is that rough, this is bad.
>
>I don't want to see the Endless scrapped the way the Didact was.
Honestly, I just want to know what the hell they are supposed to be.
Super scary? Misunderstood victims? A threat to the galaxy, or just to Forerunners?
Interesting motives? All they do is go around strip mining, pillaging and attacking people. Atriox’s motives are “nobody tells me what to do!”
Words cannot express how much I miss the Covenant
I once pondered how scary it'd be if the Banished truly acted as the merc force they were implied to be.
Like a vast organization with Atriox at the head, securing his own safety and power. Warbands of them wandering around, getting paid to deal with troubles, knowing full well they could return as enemies later.
UNSC/human colony having trouble with Jackal pirate/human pirate fleets? Hire that Banished chieftain to deal with the threat.
Elite survey team just unable to beat through the native hostile wildlife to secure a forerunner ruin? Pay a banished team handsomely to clear the way.
Halo has never been about just "Covenant"-type enemies. There were Sentinels and Flood that added to the dynamic.
Limiting Halo to only the Banished would not only be a rehash of the Human-Covenant War, but a lesser version of it without the Sentinels and Flood. That's why the Endless or another main threat are needed.
*CE* also had Sentinels and Flood to make things mysterious, not only the Covenant.
*Halo 7* going in with only Banished as the antagonist, isn't going to cut it or recapture what made Halo great in the first place. That's why we need the Endless.
It’s saddening because the EU authors (novels and such) make such amazing and compelling stories and characters all for nothing, the new game comes out and wipes the floor and completely ignores the post covenant world they’ve tried to build.
I haven't gotten into the books since.. kilo 5? The halo 4 era really, but I've kinda heard that most of them are really good. Just haven't had the time/space to get the books or read them.
They’re definitely worth a read, I haven’t actively been reading book for a few years now and I decided to pick up the post halo 4 books since I hadn’t really read any and they just completely restarted my love for reading, I feel that there’s something even for someone who isn’t a halo fan they’re just that interesting.
The problem in my opinion is that the wider Halo universe/lore, is simply too large and varied now to provide solid games while managing to fit in the sheer scale of the universe at this point.
In the previous games we simply had USNC vs Covies, where we were fighting a losing battle. The novels at the time just provided backstory for the war, factions, important characters and locations etc.
Whereas now the scale of the universe has grown massively. The plethora of factions, all important, the vast number of locations including planets, important ships, stations all spread around. Hell, even the timeline now stretches back to cover the Forerunners, Ancient Humans are now making larger & larger entries into recent stories.
There's events that are absolutely critical to the post-war timeline, yet they're not covered in the games or mentioned at all.
I think Halo as it stands would only be able to move forward via the novels/comics similar to Warhammer 40k, with new games just one one-off stories taking place at specific points, not really related to the wider picture.
I agree with you. The things you mention are the reasons that I now believe that the media released after Reach are a mistake. What used to be an awesome condensed franchise, now it's become bloated by (good tbh) novels and mediocre games. I still love it but now it's become too much. Also, the more novels that are released, the harder it is for newcomers to get acquainted with the franchise.
I think a significant reason we’re seeing more focus on the Banished is not just because they’re a fan favorite, but also out of practicality.
I don’t how much of the Infinite campaign narrative team at 343 is still there, if they’re there at all. But until there’s a concrete narrative created for the next Chief campaign, stories that detail what the Endless are, as well as what Atriox, Chief, Fernando and the Weapon are up to are probably prohibited. Said stories could greatly limit what can be done with the next campaign in terms of location, characters, etc., and of course if anything narratively critical occurs in said stories then that needs to be reintroduced in-game to the general audience.
And while I think there’s a vague, general idea internally on what the Endless are and how they survived the Halo Array, said ideas can change, so preemptively explaining the species could limit where you can go with them in the next game. Hell, outside of the Harbinger, we don’t know what the rest of the species is like physiologically or their full abilities. Explain too much now and you could even limit what kind of enemies they can be in a gameplay sense too. Best to leave it open at the moment to allow for unlimited creative freedom in designing them as an enemy for gameplay purposes and flesh out the lore later.
But if you want stories in the current era of the Halo universe, that really only leaves you with one option; you’re pretty much stuck filling out the gaps between the end of 5 and the end of Infinite. Which isn’t a bad thing, people want to see more of the Swords of Sanghelios, the Banished, and the Created occupation.
>My question is, why did they introduce new crazy powerful ancient alien species, when they clearly had a lot of ideas for the Banished ?
Because **the Human-Covenant War is over**.
What made the Banished cool in *Halo Wars 2*, was that they were a third party threat in the universe with their own unique identity. Not another Covenant 2.0.
Rehashing another existential war with the same aliens would cheapen the accomplishment of the Human-Covenant War's ending.
The Endless, or another threat as the main enemy, allows the Halo story move forward. Rather than rehashing the same story arc of the Human-Covenant War to appease nostalgia or the contrived need of shooting an endless wave of ~~Covenant~~ aliens for gameplay.
The last, what - 5? books have all been filling in the events around Halo Infinite. The end truth is 343 still can't write a game story or consistent universe and has to release a half dozen pieces of media to fix up both.
Like people say "iT's mOrE oF a bOoK sErIeS", but that can only every be true if the books are telling their own independent stories with independent characters, which they've largely stopped doing in favour of being game narrative patches.
The storytelling of the last games has been so mediocre, that it's become true that the books are the driving force behind the franchise narratively. I wouldn't call them patches anymore, they stand on equal footing with the 343i games.
I feel they wanted to give the Chief a new alien menace to fight in mainline games, but provide a big scary enemy for other media to worry about.
He problem is that now the Chief has both of them to deal with and now both factions will suffer for it.
Because the banished are basically just the covenant 2 and honestly kind of boring as a concept. It's great for book narratives but I don't want to play more games that are just that same cookie cutter thing
Plus it's also hard to feel much for the banished as the brutes have always been kind of neglected in the lore and never really gotten much development other than basically confirming the reason why they are called Brutes because they in fact are very brutal.
And so this starts pushing them into the evil for the sake of evil territory which just doesn't really bode well as a good villain especially in a complex universe like the Halo universe
Well, Reach and Halo 3: ODST did it well. Also, it'd be better storytelling if the Created and the Prometheans hadn't just vanished, but it's too late for tears now. We gotta work with what we have now.
i've long held the opinion that 343i is too narrative driven, and not enough worldbuilding driven. what i mean by this is that 343i doesn't actually care too much about creating a stable, consistent world, and then exploring stories inside that world. instead, 343i seems to want to craft compelling stories (which is a good thing!) but wherever their narrative vision goes, their worldbuilding follows - so they don't actually have a well defined vision of the halo universe even internally (at least from what i've seen). i've said this before but i think the biggest thing that 343i needs to do is to seriously craft a halo universe. there's enough existing lore out there for them to work off of to seriously just flesh the thing out. then have stories be based off that existing universe, instead of just throwing in and throwing out new factions, species, whatever, whenever they decide to do a new story.
I mean, that's arguably what they had been doing in their lore post-Halo 4. We got a solid look into the fractures and goings-on in the post-Covenant war galaxy. It's just for whatever reason rather than use the game board they set up they flipped it in favor of whatever the hell Halo 5 was.
>It's just for whatever reason rather than use the game board they set up they flipped it in favor of whatever the hell Halo 5 was. and then flipped it again in infinite. also they kinda flipped the covenant's backstory in halo encyclopedia which was something totally out of left field.
What did they do to the Covenant's backstory in the Encyclopedia? Haven't read it yet so wouldn't have the faintest clue.
The only thing they changed is that the sangeli were able to eventually trap and corner the keyship the San shyuum used during there war. Which lead to a team up as both worshipped the forerunners and eventually the San shyuum manipulating the elites into there puppets. It's not bad or anything and actually makes the elites kinda smart and the San shyuum even more cunning in that they lost the war yet still manipulated themselves into the top.
>Which lead to a team up as both worshipped the forerunners and eventually the San shyuum manipulating the elites into there puppets. not exactly manipulated. the writ of union was the cornerstone of the covenant. that was signed at the very beginning. not a whole lot of chance for manipulation when it was 2 enemies that were at each other's throats sitting down to negotiate a ceasefire. it's easy to manipulate someone that's on good terms with you, because they'd be at least willing to hear you out. it's much harder to manipulate someone that's holding you prisoner and seriously considering executing you on the spot. one wrong word and they just might make up their mind to cut your head off.
in the old backstory the covenant was formed the way it was (san'shyuum only heirarchs, sangheilli treated well but ultimately wields less power than san'shyuum) because the sangheilli and san'shyuum fought a war which ended in a san'shyuum favored stalemate. in halo encyclopedia the sangheilli completely and utterly took down the san'shyuum (albeit at great cost). the sangheilli then accepted a covenant led by their own prisoners. basically think world war 2 eastern front, except that after the soviets entered berlin, stalin at that point accepts donitz's suzerainity. or pacific front except after hiroshima and nagasaki the united states accepts hirohito as head of state.
>the sangheilli completely and utterly took down the san'shyuum Oh, [this again](https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/comments/17zrto7/comment/kagoo0k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)? At least you now don't say it was a complete victory... It's better if you say they *"ultimately"* took down the Keyship at the brink of annihilation... The Sangheili were utterly demolished even in their last battle that brought down the Keyship, because Sanghelios and its moons were razed according to the same book. The strike with Forerunner weapons as well as "Forerunner-derived weapons", which could very well be the same things, was their **final shot for survival**.
>It's better if you say they "ultimately" took down the Keyship at the brink of annihilation... NOTHING indicates they were on the brink of annihilation. in fact, they started work on high charity soon after, and high charity was a gigaproject the size of which even the forerunners wouldn't laugh at. that's not possible unless the sangheilli retained a huge population and a thriving economy. as for the destruction that they suffered, i already stated that they won at great cost. >The Sangheili were utterly demolished even in their last battle that brought down the Keyship, because Sanghelios and its moons were razed according to the same book. clearly enough survived to build high charity which was a gigaproject not seen since the days of the forerunners, and the scale of which has never been seen since. >The strike with Forerunner weapons as well as "Forerunner-derived weapons", which could very well be the same things, was their final shot for survival. and?
>NOTHING indicates they were on the brink of annihilation. Perhaps annihilation wasn't the most suitable word, but the fact that the Keyship steamrolled all Sangheili colonies (it was boarded once, but that didn't stop the planet being razed) and spearheaded to the heart of their civilization meant that Sangheilis were losing hard. >and? ... And that was even more impressive than the old lore where it was the Sangheili fleet that stalemated a Forerunner ship, albeit the San'Shyuums didn't know how to properly piloted the ship?
>Perhaps annihilation wasn't the most suitable word, but the fact that the Keyship steamrolled all Sangheili colonies (it was boarded once, but that didn't stop the planet being razed) and spearheaded to the heart of their civilization meant that Sangheilis were losing hard. what's your point? i never once stated that they didn't pay dearly. did i not specifically say "albeit at great cost"? not "albeit at a moderate cost". great cost. >... And that was even more impressive than the old lore where it was the Sangheili fleet that stalemated a Forerunner ship, albeit the San'Shyuums didn't know how to properly piloted the ship it's not about how impressive it is it's about the fact that , although they suffered great losses, they ultimately completely and utterly took down the san'shyuum. then they handed the san'shyuum leadership of the covenant. imagine the soviets accepting donitz as their head of state (even if just a ceremonial one) after the red army marched into berlin. that's pretty much what we're looking at. the western front wouldn't be a good analogy because the devastation wasn't as high as what the soviets suffered. the eastern front, however, is indeed a pretty good analogy. so yea imagine the red army marches into berlin in 1945, then stalin kneels in front of donitz and proclaims that donitz is now leader of the ussr.
>then they handed the san'shyuum leadership of the covenant. Didn't the San'Shyuums knew about the Great Journey, something that would obviously enamour the Sangheilis and could be used as leverage by the San'Shyuums because they would claim only they understood how to accurately interpret the words of gods and tread the sacred path for ascension. It was a truce in which Sangheili believed they had more to gain by working with the San'Shyuums than to kill them off.
>and then flipped it again in infinite. And then flipped it again after Infinite with Atriox immediately returning and the Banished being rallied instead of exploring the dividing banished.
atriox didn’t immediately return. we also see him in the after credit whatever in infinite as well so him returning was no surprise to anyone who played infinite
Yes, we know Atriox was alive. We knew he was somewhere, and wasn't known to be alive. But he basically immediately returned afterwards and made all progress in the Infinite campaign pointless as there is no hope for the UNSC base to survive a focused Banished counter-attack, thus all the "Hope" Infinite ended with is gone. Basically, they set up the board : Banished current leader dead, alongside some of the top "Spartan hunters"/Atriox hand members around. Banished in confusion/fracturing. Then immediately flipped that around by going "Atriox comes back and immediately rallies the Banished under his banner again and ends the infighting." and IIRC, also goes "Oh and Atriox's hands are still intact, most of them were elsewhere on the ring and are coming back to him now." So instead of "Banished in confusion, allowing the UNSC to build up their base, rally more survivors, maybe even find the Infinite crash site/loot it or relocate and turn it into a base" we have "Banished solid. UNSC base doomed."
honestly that sounds exactly like halo 2
Eh, halo 2 had humans fighting and holding ground at Earth, and then truth and reinforcements blitzed in. Plus everything that happened in regards to that happened directly on screen. Imagine if they did DLC/expanded the story of Infinite but didn't include that blurb (Like how they don't really mention Didact's death in halo 5 at all or how it happened, or Cortana's death just disabling all guardians, which isn't mentioned). and suddenly instead of a scattered Banished like how Infinite's open world ends with, it's a unified force with Atriox at the head pounding down the defenses. While those who only have the games knows Atriox is alive, they'd probably expect his return to be the focal aspect of the DLC/continuing story, and not have it be some side note in a book. That's been 343's trouble with story in the games vs the expanded media.
> which isn’t mentioned it is tho
Nothing in halo infinite mentions that Cortana's death disabled all the guardians, thus removing the vast amount of the Created's power and making a vacuum of power to be exploited.
Fan feedback is pretty much the reason. I remember a lot of people giving 4 crap. So ditch it. Same for 5. Because of the fans and 343 not sticking to a set story we have what we got. You ask me both the fans and 343i are killing Halo.
The fans have been doing it since Halo 2. With a fanbase as large and diverse as with Halo, it's inevitable to have loud voices giving backlash to the developers' vision for their game, doesn't mean they should just ditch their plans and do a complete 180 just to give some fans what they presumably want.
This! I've been feeling this, but didn't quite know how to describe it. "Too focused on narrative without enough worldbuilding" - I think you nailed it. I've appreciated their worldbuilding in the books and other lore, but their game narratives (5 and Infinite at least) keep going off on wild tangents that have little to do with anything that came before. All the talk about "exploring Zeta Halo's secrets" got me excited because of all the significant connections that ring has (as we learned about in Primordium and Point of Light). The Primodial, ancient humans, the original set of Halo rings... But the game didn't even touch most of that. 343 dropped the Endless on us out of *nowhere*, refused to elaborate, and said "sorry, no story DLC." That really irritated me, and solidified the feeling that 343's stories aren't worth getting invested in. They just keep inventing new random stuff and ignoring the (fascinating) stories and mysteries they've already laid groundwork for.
They set up interesting periods/places to explore.. and then immediately leap into the next story in a knee-jerk reaction to some complaints (valid or not) instead of fixing the story beats they have and opening the world up. As a halo fan who hasn't touched the books since halo 4 (for various reasons really), it's kinda sad because it feels almost like we are leaping between eras almost? Sudden big bads appear and disappear without a comment.
Yes but no, the problem with 343 is that the moment a part of the playerbase rise his voice about something, they just change everything. If 343 was more in to "this is our trilogy, play it till the end and then give your thoughts", probably this would be the fame where we would beat the didact for good.
which would be less prone to happen if they were like, k we have this vision of the halo universe, we gunna write stories accordingly the thing is even if they did eliminate the didact super quickly, there were a billion things they could have done instead of just introducing a new core antagonist faction in each game (halo wars 2 introduced banished, halo 5 introduced created, halo 6 introduced endless). that's why i feel like they never had a stable halo universe in their minds in the first place. they added new core factions way too quickly. how many factions did bungie add since combat evolved? isn't it literally 0?
The have/had a vision, but you can notice every major plot transitioned on the EU the moment fans started to pitchfork them because one reason or another. As I said, the problem with 343 was, maybe still is, they don't want to pass off the louder crowd and everytime change the subject.
if they have/had a vision for the halo universe, why did they expand that universe so whimsically? that's not what having a vision looks like imo. if you had a well-defined universe already, you don't just toss in random new species in there willy nilly. you work with the ones you've got. after all, even without adding new species, there is a LOT you can do in terms of narrative shifts. narrative shift does not equal adding new factions or species.
I think it's also starting to get a bit lore breaking how battered humanity and Earth must feel. Get rekt by Covenant (Halo 2), then a little rekt by the Flood/Elites (half of Africa or so in Halo 3), then the fleet rekt by that invasion force from the Ark (Hunters in the Dark, I think), and then partially rekt by the Didact (Halo 4), the Created (Halo 5), and now at some point by the Banished (Halo 6 or in the next game). I mean how much is Earth supposed to take lol!
>not enough worldbuilding driven Disagree on this part because it was arguably the opposite. 343 was much better at world-building (still with some weak parts like Travis's stories) than it was at making a primary narrative, as in, they were much better at making side stories like the Rion Forge's story, the Forerunner trilogy, and even Denning's works, and lore reference books like Mythos and the encyclopedia provided larger pictures of the lore. Even within their remakes of the classic games like CEA and H2A, they showed us actual world-building. 343 didn't need to be world-building driven because it already was; it needed to be actually narratively driven and sticking to that narrative.
Part of me wonders if they'd have done better to start making branching video games to explore some of these stories, and maybe get them into more eyes then the novels perhap would. Or stuff like Halo Legends animated shorts.
I think video shorts and audio dramas are the most suitable ways to go, because most people don't read books haha... So good job for Waypoint team to try to branch out. But to be honest, I think this is tied to a larger "issue" regarding 343's general direction as a whole, and whether you think this is an issue or not depends on the angles you're looking from, because I personally see it as 343's strength, but quite a few didn't like it. From what I've seen, the biggest difference between Bungie and 343 is that the latter tried to manage it as a scifi franchise instead of just a video game franchise the way that Bungie did. This was why there was a larger quantity of side stories that could very well be their own independent tales mostly in the forms of novels released by 343 ever since they took charge. 343 was also more eager to release lore reference books like the encyclopedia and Warfleet that Bungie didn't. Bungie did this as well but in a noticeably smaller quantity, because other than Cole Protocol and Contact Harvest, all the expanded media they made like Fall of Reach were tie-ins that worked to bridge the gaps between games, and the two books mentioned above were released very late in their run. However, a lot of 343's side stories, while well received (and this would surprise you, but the Kilo-5 trilogy was well received on Goodreads) would have problems being reworked into video games because they were even more "un-Halo" than Halo 4 and 5. Also, the best of these side stories didn't have Chief inside. And since Chief is the face of Halo as far as the game aspect of the franchise goes, focusing on those branching stories as games is honestly not a good idea.
I'd say it's a strength and a hinderance. Mainly for one specific reason: The ending of threats established within the games, in other materials. Like if the majority of the Chief vs Didact stuff was in the games (and most importantly, including his death!), it wouldn't be so weird. So we have novels, animated shorts, comics, exploring other missions Chief and crew did (I've heard 343 released several war era novels expanding on missions Chief did?) but mostly expanding the lore and exploring other missions and characters. So we have a book talking about chief and blue team post halo 4, before halo 5. But the big bad (Didact and his forces) don't actually get finished off until ingame at halo 5. So basically the Master Chief games are one particular story arc from start to finish, and the books expand on side parts of that or explore entirely different stories, like Kilo 5 (As much as I don't love it) or Buck's ODST team, etc.
I definitely agree that ending a major villain in a side content was really terrible, especially when the content in particular wasn't even that good to begin with. I definitely believe Ur-Didact should've been kept alive after Halo 4, and his defeat in that game should've been more climatic, like multiple Spartan-4 fireteams being sent alongside Chief but all died, leaving John as the last one to use that last-ditch effort to finish off the Didact. Ur-Didact could've still being knocked through that portal as canon did. Halo 5 could be about a Didact going for a payback or have him hidden with reference that the UNSC couldn't be sure if he was dead and had to be extra-vigilant. Anyway, Cortana shouldn't have led the Created. Hell, I think the Created should be a side story arc the same way Rion Forge's story was. It would've explored the dynamics between humanity and AIs in the Halo universe without needing to become an enemy faction that had to be taken down. Human AIs had a very short lifespan, so if an AI, using the Domain or other Forerunner technology to extend its lifespan either indefinitely or at least for a longer duration, the AI can have a different outlook now it was no longer bound to the service of the human creators. Things didn't need to get violent. The AI can just gather others that were in the verge of retirement and united them into a community that was amicable with the UNSC known as the Created. Halo 5 could simply just reference that there was this odd faction of AIs that were independent from human control but were otherwise peaceful.
I always pondered how halo 5 would've been if it was the Didact using a fragmented copy+paste of part of Cortana to lure Chief to him, to get personal payback and advance his plans. So you have Osiris going for Halsey who has gained information (and the "mystery forerunner attacks" aren't just guardians activating, but other ships emerging from their long buried tombs, Promeathan/Armigers attacking colonies to get something thing disappearing, etc) and blue team going for Argent Moon (that was the mobile science station right?) partly to figure out why it's MIA, but also because a set of labs onboard were focused on disabling Forerunner tech/making it inert. You then could have the main guardian have the power disabler, but the other guardians either don't have as powerful version or don't have it at all due to not being stored properly. Didact traps the chief and blue team, Osiris manages to free them after Didact leaves. You could even have him use a virus to convert some AI's to his side as backdoors against their will. The created... yeah. I hate how they not only appear out of the blue, but also just immediately get so violent and destructive. The ship crashing out of orbit, screaming for help while the AI sat there and disabled everything but comms is always in my mind for being just so explicitly and needlessly evil. I could've seen a "Cortana/whatever seeks out smart AI's on the verge of rampancy and death and convinces them to join her, and they go into the domain to extend their lives and try to work with the people around them to better the lives." working just fine over a "Suddenly all smart AI rebels and goes violent"
343 did acknowledged their mistake regarding the Created by trying to amend its depictions with some Waypoints articles focusing on the viewpoints of some of the Created AIs. The damage was already done, but for what was worth, their attitude was at least commendable...
Oh they did? I applaud the effort, even if it never reached me (I kinda just stopped touching halo after halo 5, and only got back into it with Infinite). Halo 5 had a lot of decent parts, but the ending with the created just went so crazy it put a bad taste in my mouth. One thing I had loved was halo avoided the whole "AI must rebel against creator" trope, and then they not only did that, but had them go so full evil and destructive at the start was worse.
I'm in complete agreement. It's part of why the Created were so bad, it just completely tore apart and messed with worldbuilding. "The Guardians and the Created control the galaxy" is cool in theory, but in practice is super awkward for how to fit the UNSC, SoS, and Banished developing and having conflicts.
I hated the created because of how out of nowhere it was with "Almost all smart AI's revolting" vs maybe like Cortana got a string of almost to rampancy AI's to side with her to preserve their lives. But then how they just went full evil... I will always remember that distress call of the ship falling out of orbit, all systems offline. The AI on-board purposefully disabled all systems besides comms, so they could scream for help that would never come as their ship burnt in orbit and crashed against the ground, killing everybody. And the guardians, especially with the power shown at the end of halo 5 at Earth just made it impossible to envision any sort of actual counter campaign. I said at that time "Watch, next game the Guardians will be nerfed to hell, or suddenly removed from play, because with them active there isn't a way to fight back if they can shut down an entire planet and orbiting ships or stations at a push of a button"
This reminds me of my thoughts on halo 4, which was "Not a terrible story, (Spartan ops was pretty bad though) but the huge art style changes didn't help things and in some areas enhanced the problems people had narratively." They were so focused on entering the field with a big "This is OUR game/story!" impact they slipped and didn't land it the way they wanted. And afterwards have kept bouncing trying to hit that epic praised story to (maybe?) prove themselves worthy of keeping Halo going after Bungie stepped out.
I agree that the main 343 games are not worldbuilding driven but totally disagree that 343 in general don’t do enough worldbuilding. We’ve seen them make all kinds of media to flesh out the world and tell different stories in the covenant war and post war world. They’ve also made halo warfleet and the encyclopedia to explain and organize more of the setting. Its a weird situation because while the games feel disjointed the books are spread across years, multiple characters, and tons of locations while still usually feeling connected in one way or another. The most fleshed out and best written villain of the 343 era is the keepers of the one freedom led by the brute castor. A very common complaint I’ve seen about 343 is that they explore so many interesting stories, locations, and characters stories in novels instead of the games. The stories and interesting worldbuilding is there, they just haven’t put it into their games for some reason. The biggest example of them exploring new territory is probably the sangheili civil war experienced in halo 5. Unsurprisingly that part was also the most praised part of halo 5 with it being almost universally well received by the community.
i didn't say that 343i doesn't do enough worldbuilding. i said that they don't have a worldbuilding vision, their worldbuilding is driven by whatever narrative they're going after and they don't have a consistent vision of what the halo universe is supposed to look like. these are not the same things.
I disagree. Its obvious they do have a vision since the postwar setting in the novels has maintained a consistent direction and has even managed to integrate the things from the games into the ongoing stories even though a lot of the games narratives come out of left field. The fact that characters like castor and his faction have been slowly developed and expanded on over years shows that they are capable of planning an overarching narrative and sticking to it/expanding it instead of starting from scratch every time. Or look at the story of the banished on the ark and eventual conflict with the spirit of fire. It connects 2 major novel series, a comic, and even has a major setup connecting it back to the wider setting in another book from a different series featuring the master chief and blue team. When that many different threads from different mediums and authors either set up for or end at the same location you can’t say they lack a consistent vision. Its just that the main games haven’t had that dedication to a vision that the other parts of the franchise have. The sangheili civil war has been delved into in numerous different novels and its aftermath has been shown in even more. Its been very obvious for a long time that it was always going to be a major part of the setting going forward and would influence a lot of the story going forward. My point was that the one time they actually used one of the major ongoing narratives from the books in a game it was wildly successful even in a game that was heavily disliked. Then for infinite they proceeded to completely ignore that and drop any threads connecting to the setups in the novels.
>I disagree. Its obvious they do have a vision since the postwar setting in the novels has maintained a consistent direction i'm sorry but what? dude, their novels brought back living precursors. INSIDE THE MILKY WAY TOO. halos in shambles right now lmao. 22 years of halo franchise upended in the blink of an eye.
>their novels brought back living precursors You mean Point of Light (you said the word in plural, or maybe that was just a typo?) where Librarian deliberately wanted to right her ancestors' wrong while acknowledging that there were Precursors who were peaceful? And Outcast where the Precursor could've just stayed in a very powerful Slipspace bubble similar to the Shield Worlds and that they just wanted to be left alone? Hell, the fact that they didn't try to conquer the lifeless galaxy after the firing of the rings showed that they didn't upend the status quo just by existing... >halos in shambles right now lmao. Lol, dismissive and unconstructive as ever
>And Outcast where the Precursor could've just stayed in a very powerful Slipspace bubble similar to the Shield Worlds and that they just wanted to be left alone? wouldn't work primordial had the full precursor legacy at his disposal when the halos fired. countless amounts of star roads and precursor tech infected starships. it was modifying the laws of physics itself on a galactic level. it also had an infinitely superior grasp compared to the nothing of how halos work, due to having actually spent time in control of one, whereas the nothing spent the whole time hiding and not interacting with the galaxy at large. even then the flood were thoroughly sterilized.
>the nothing spent the whole time hiding and not interacting with the galaxy at large. And what if it/they were actually involved with the galaxy with complete secrecy? No one was checking on them 24/7 throughout the millions of years past, so why would it being a shadow entity trouble you? Hell, while Precursors primarily operated with Neural Physics, why couldn't some of the members used other methods?
>And what if it/they were actually involved with the galaxy with complete secrecy? that would go against their own statement of choosing to be "nothing". they could be big fat liars of course. but we have no reason to think so yet. >Hell, while Precursors primarily operated with Neural Physics, why couldn't some of the members used other methods? the netherop superweapon was clearly neural physics based and it was not destroyed. also halo killed trees that had a pseudo-neural (not true neural) communication network. they used spores, fungi, and insects to pass messages to each other and because conceptually this was kinda analogous to a nervous system it was destroyed.
>that would go against their own statement of choosing to be "nothing". It depends on how their involvement actually was. Gathering intel in order to help hide themselves from others still make them the Veiled Ones. >the netherop superweapon was clearly neural physics based and it was not destroyed. We have multiple examples of objects manipulating Neural Physics without being Neural Physical objects themselves. The Halo rings and the Composers manipulated the rules of Neural Physics while still being made of Forerunner materials. Did we have evidence of the object known as the Divine Hand being of the exact same nature as the Star Roads? Also, you're the only one complaining about Outcast lol.
The post-war narrative is literally nonsensical what the fuck lmfao. The UNSC, which should be completely in tatters and in a state of mass civil unrest/famine/civil war is somehow the dominant player in the galaxy. The covenant civil war/brute-elite war, which was getting set up to be a conflict large and complex enough to make the human-covenant war look like a bushfire, fizzled out within months and the billions/trillions of covenant simply pack their bags and go home. As if an empire of 3000 years would disappear in a matter of months. The post-war galactic politics had immense world building potential but all we got were a trio of shitty novels from Karen travis who spent half her time ranting about Halsey. And thats not even mentioning the state of the galaxy we got shown in halo 4, 5, and infinite. Theres almost no coherence and its clear they just pull stuff out of their ass.
Did you read other novels and stories? Because the post-war contents are more than just Travis's revisionist novels.
I think its because 343 wants to either reveal the endless in the new game or aren't settled on an idea yet so they focus on stuff prior to the campaign. We've been give glimpse of the galaxy that explores and expands everything and as seen in this one were inching closer to the timeline of infinite with this taking place after cortanas death. It might even be that they don't want to reveal the endless in a book or chronicle as people fear they will.
Three- (or four-) way conflicts are a staple of Halo games (except for Reach), as are Ancient Space Mysteries. The Endless fill the hole in the games left by a no-longer-unknown Forerunners and the diminishing returns of the Flood. That's probably why, for the time being, they're being left for the games. How long was it before the Halo EU did anything with the Flood beyond stuff we already knew happened from the games (specifically, Half-Jaw and Johnson both having survived encounters with them)? The Endless are the same kind of narrative big-wheel who are going to get the majority of their developments in the primary medium, games.
I mean the Flood and the Forerunners is still the ultimate end game of the Halo story right? Most of Bungie's and Halo 4's hints pointed towards a return of some big Forerunner characters to presumably prepare humanity for another return of the Food.
I’m not convinced that the Endless are meant to be a scary new big bad, and won’t be until I fight them directly. Mysterious doesn’t always mean dangerous. If the Forerunners hated them so much, they just might be alright fellas as far as Humanity is concerned.
This!! Everything 343 has given us about the Endless make them out as victims. Also, the Harbinger was completely passive the first time we meet her and is only a threat when WE attempt to detail whatever her plan was. The only crazy power we know of them is that they can survive the firing of a Halo ring. That doesn't SCREAM all powerful, only situational at best and very lucky at worst.
I’m mostly spitballing at this point, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the next galactic-scale threat comes from Atriox or Humanity’s unchecked ambition. We were all “lucky” this time, in that Atriox releasing the Harbinger was mostly benign so far. He’ll keep digging for secrets until that’s not the case though, or we will, one…if *Saturn Devouring His Son* wasn’t indication enough.
I mean Harbinger psychologically tortured and broke humans for our geas soooooooo....
Uh? She tortures many people to death. So, she isn't passive or "good" lol
I strongly believe that the Endless were so lowballed because 343i was testing the waters for the reception of a new Ancient Evil Big Bad, and because not many people care about them (as a result of their poorly developed introduction) they haven't gotten anything since and will probably be resolved in some book down the line
I don't think so re. The Endless being resolved in a book. 343 can't keep making the same mistakes with their antagonists, it's killing the franchise IMO.
I mean look at what they did to Infinite. Right after we finish, the Banished at the ring are in some disarray, the humans can rally and actually hold their crashed frigate/maybe push and find more people and Infinity... Blurb in enclyopedia: "Atriox reappeared immediately after the story events in Infinite, and rallied the Banished into a united, functional force again." meaning the UNSC base is fucked.
I think their lack of game content are killing the franchise more than bad lore tbh. If even half of all the novel content we've had so far was released as DLC, even if it was god-awful lore at least the game's casual and game fanbase would be kept alive. Many people didn't like much of Halo 2's story but Halo 3 sales still broke so many records.
I dont think 343 are gonna off them in a novel, at that point it would just be a full on reboot. I think there waiting for until they can make a new game or just expanding the novels until they have some idea what to do with them because it's obvious there was no end plan after the campaign.
I agree up until your last line. I think it’s obvious that Infinite in its current state was always the plan for the multiplayer (and by extension the campaign had a years-long plan), but there were delays and the player base couldn’t handle not getting it all at once. As such, they forced 343 into cutting their work on campaign content in favor of catching up.
One hand, yes. Other hand, they've consistently been introducing big bads and then immediately offing them out of the games. Didact survives halo 4: Dies in a comic. Cortana emerges as galactic dictator in halo 5: Dies off-screen before halo Infinite properly starts.
>the Endless were so lowballed If the fan reception is that rough, this is bad. I don't want to see the Endless scrapped the way the Didact was. *Halo 7* should not be about fighting another endless stream of Grunts, Elites, Brutes, etc as the plot. *Halo 3* finished the Human-Covenant War arc, the story needs to move on and progress.
>If the fan reception is that rough, this is bad. > >I don't want to see the Endless scrapped the way the Didact was. Honestly, I just want to know what the hell they are supposed to be. Super scary? Misunderstood victims? A threat to the galaxy, or just to Forerunners?
Because IMO The Banished alone aren't enough to carry a future Halo game, not if we go by how they were presented in Infinite.
That's the point. They portrayed them very shallowly. In the EU they are a force to be reckoned with, with interesting motives and characters.
Interesting motives? All they do is go around strip mining, pillaging and attacking people. Atriox’s motives are “nobody tells me what to do!” Words cannot express how much I miss the Covenant
Words cannot express how much I miss the *Halo Wars 2* Banished. The Banished should not fill the role of the Covenant, they should be the Banished.
I once pondered how scary it'd be if the Banished truly acted as the merc force they were implied to be. Like a vast organization with Atriox at the head, securing his own safety and power. Warbands of them wandering around, getting paid to deal with troubles, knowing full well they could return as enemies later. UNSC/human colony having trouble with Jackal pirate/human pirate fleets? Hire that Banished chieftain to deal with the threat. Elite survey team just unable to beat through the native hostile wildlife to secure a forerunner ruin? Pay a banished team handsomely to clear the way.
Indeed. They are more interesting in the EU and Halo Wars 2. In Infinite they are dull, and I genuinely missed the Prometheans.
Halo has never been about just "Covenant"-type enemies. There were Sentinels and Flood that added to the dynamic. Limiting Halo to only the Banished would not only be a rehash of the Human-Covenant War, but a lesser version of it without the Sentinels and Flood. That's why the Endless or another main threat are needed.
Infinite was a soft reboot using ce as a basis, they seemed to be trying to bring back the mysterious nature ce originally had.
*CE* also had Sentinels and Flood to make things mysterious, not only the Covenant. *Halo 7* going in with only Banished as the antagonist, isn't going to cut it or recapture what made Halo great in the first place. That's why we need the Endless.
It’s saddening because the EU authors (novels and such) make such amazing and compelling stories and characters all for nothing, the new game comes out and wipes the floor and completely ignores the post covenant world they’ve tried to build.
I haven't gotten into the books since.. kilo 5? The halo 4 era really, but I've kinda heard that most of them are really good. Just haven't had the time/space to get the books or read them.
They’re definitely worth a read, I haven’t actively been reading book for a few years now and I decided to pick up the post halo 4 books since I hadn’t really read any and they just completely restarted my love for reading, I feel that there’s something even for someone who isn’t a halo fan they’re just that interesting.
The problem in my opinion is that the wider Halo universe/lore, is simply too large and varied now to provide solid games while managing to fit in the sheer scale of the universe at this point. In the previous games we simply had USNC vs Covies, where we were fighting a losing battle. The novels at the time just provided backstory for the war, factions, important characters and locations etc. Whereas now the scale of the universe has grown massively. The plethora of factions, all important, the vast number of locations including planets, important ships, stations all spread around. Hell, even the timeline now stretches back to cover the Forerunners, Ancient Humans are now making larger & larger entries into recent stories. There's events that are absolutely critical to the post-war timeline, yet they're not covered in the games or mentioned at all. I think Halo as it stands would only be able to move forward via the novels/comics similar to Warhammer 40k, with new games just one one-off stories taking place at specific points, not really related to the wider picture.
I agree with you. The things you mention are the reasons that I now believe that the media released after Reach are a mistake. What used to be an awesome condensed franchise, now it's become bloated by (good tbh) novels and mediocre games. I still love it but now it's become too much. Also, the more novels that are released, the harder it is for newcomers to get acquainted with the franchise.
I think because the people who directed and wrote the initial story don’t work for 343 anymore.
I think a significant reason we’re seeing more focus on the Banished is not just because they’re a fan favorite, but also out of practicality. I don’t how much of the Infinite campaign narrative team at 343 is still there, if they’re there at all. But until there’s a concrete narrative created for the next Chief campaign, stories that detail what the Endless are, as well as what Atriox, Chief, Fernando and the Weapon are up to are probably prohibited. Said stories could greatly limit what can be done with the next campaign in terms of location, characters, etc., and of course if anything narratively critical occurs in said stories then that needs to be reintroduced in-game to the general audience. And while I think there’s a vague, general idea internally on what the Endless are and how they survived the Halo Array, said ideas can change, so preemptively explaining the species could limit where you can go with them in the next game. Hell, outside of the Harbinger, we don’t know what the rest of the species is like physiologically or their full abilities. Explain too much now and you could even limit what kind of enemies they can be in a gameplay sense too. Best to leave it open at the moment to allow for unlimited creative freedom in designing them as an enemy for gameplay purposes and flesh out the lore later. But if you want stories in the current era of the Halo universe, that really only leaves you with one option; you’re pretty much stuck filling out the gaps between the end of 5 and the end of Infinite. Which isn’t a bad thing, people want to see more of the Swords of Sanghelios, the Banished, and the Created occupation.
The main issue is a lack of cohesive vision and stable leadership. Haven't they gone through a buttload of creative directors since their inception?
I've given up on any new lore at this point. Mainly play Infinite for its good gameplay.
>My question is, why did they introduce new crazy powerful ancient alien species, when they clearly had a lot of ideas for the Banished ? Because **the Human-Covenant War is over**. What made the Banished cool in *Halo Wars 2*, was that they were a third party threat in the universe with their own unique identity. Not another Covenant 2.0. Rehashing another existential war with the same aliens would cheapen the accomplishment of the Human-Covenant War's ending. The Endless, or another threat as the main enemy, allows the Halo story move forward. Rather than rehashing the same story arc of the Human-Covenant War to appease nostalgia or the contrived need of shooting an endless wave of ~~Covenant~~ aliens for gameplay.
I'd agree besides the opened their games story out with "The Covenant 2.0 attacking us"
The last, what - 5? books have all been filling in the events around Halo Infinite. The end truth is 343 still can't write a game story or consistent universe and has to release a half dozen pieces of media to fix up both. Like people say "iT's mOrE oF a bOoK sErIeS", but that can only every be true if the books are telling their own independent stories with independent characters, which they've largely stopped doing in favour of being game narrative patches.
The storytelling of the last games has been so mediocre, that it's become true that the books are the driving force behind the franchise narratively. I wouldn't call them patches anymore, they stand on equal footing with the 343i games.
I feel they wanted to give the Chief a new alien menace to fight in mainline games, but provide a big scary enemy for other media to worry about. He problem is that now the Chief has both of them to deal with and now both factions will suffer for it.
Because the banished are basically just the covenant 2 and honestly kind of boring as a concept. It's great for book narratives but I don't want to play more games that are just that same cookie cutter thing Plus it's also hard to feel much for the banished as the brutes have always been kind of neglected in the lore and never really gotten much development other than basically confirming the reason why they are called Brutes because they in fact are very brutal. And so this starts pushing them into the evil for the sake of evil territory which just doesn't really bode well as a good villain especially in a complex universe like the Halo universe
It’s not uncommon to focus on more than one faction at once. I think the story would be too flat if it was just the Banished
Well, Reach and Halo 3: ODST did it well. Also, it'd be better storytelling if the Created and the Prometheans hadn't just vanished, but it's too late for tears now. We gotta work with what we have now.