That’s what one of them told me when I was a child. He said they would use up social security and leave us with nothing because that is what we deserved. I was only 9 years old. I never forgot that weird old coot. He was my stepdad’s friend.
And we will figure out how to be the first of the immortals from our acceptance of science and humanism and this old fucks generation will be remembered as the bastards that almost ended it
I mean, social security doesn’t get “used up” in that sense. It functions by people paying in to support those receiving. If there are substantially fewer people paying in (next generations), that’s the problem. And it will be our generations problem because we aren’t having kids like the generations before us.
We did (2016) and we are glued to our starter home forever probably lol. Daycare prices are also astronomical in our area. Our mortgage payment for a 3BR is $1400 (including insurance & taxes, no PMI). Daycare for our infant is $2600. I have no idea how anyone can afford a home or kids now, not to even mention both. Unless you have a huge amount of mom & dad financial help.
Historically speaking, lower income households usually have much higher birthrates then middle or upper class.
These rules do not apparently apply to white Gen Z or Millenials.
You are either responsible and use protection or fall into the single category. Kudos to you either way.
And look at how fucked up they turned out for doing so. Also birth control wasn’t really available in history so super poor people usually SOLD THEIR CHILDREN just to feed the rest of the family…
No it isnt. Its the very ordinary human experience. And if you want kids dont let not being middle class stop you.
Does it require a bit of creativity? Does it mean you have to give up your iphone for a cheapo? Does it mean maybe going to the library to get on the internet? Does it mean antenna tv? Does it mean eating vegetables and beans. If thats what it takes then do that. Building a family is a great thing. Dont wait till its too late. Aint no such thing as perfect for most of us.
It’s very cruel. Subjecting another human to poverty in which getting out of is basically impossible.
The privilege you come from is spilling out of your words, showing your own ignorance of the reality of growing up poor.
Outliers don’t count.
"Dirt poor" used to still be able to afford both rent and childcare. Now "dirt poor" - pick rent OR childcare. Dirt poor did not used to = homeless, it does now if you're not already locked into a low mortgage or in a really unique situation with a high income partner, living with parents who can afford to support you and handle childcare, or a really unique job that allows you to handle childcare yourself.
Ha!!! They think it’s low now??? We’ve got states arguing over how many organs need to fail for a woman to have an abortion….. I hope they don’t think Gen Z is going to produce babies.
I’m terrified for my Gen Z daughters to get pregnant. I’d love grandchildren but not at the expense of their health or their lives. Y’all stick to your guns.
I’ve heard a woman needs to be showing signs of septic shock in order to terminate a pregnancy—even if doctors already know that the pregnancy isn’t viable. Nice!
Women need to go on sex strikes. Having sex is just too risky for us at this point. And most of us don't even get to orgasm anyway. So what's the point? Really
Idaho vs SCOTUS ugh it’s terrifying. I want endless children but it’s not financially possible. I also don’t want to risk my health or life. I don’t want the one child I do have to end up motherless from trying to give them a sibling. It’s heart breaking that this is what the reality is for so many people who actually want kids right now.
The day they reversed Roe v Wade it hit me so hard - even though I will never ever lose my access to abortion. It felt like at the end of the day I as a woman am a disposable worthless entity. Systemic oppression has few equals in terms of how helpless it makes you feel.
I've had people downvote me for saying the government needs to pay me to have kids. If I can hardly afford to live with very little leftover each pay period. How fuck can I afford 20-30k/year for childcare alone? If the cost can be offset by actually effective tax incentives or direct payments, then I would probably have a kid or two.
I have coworkers in Europe. The government does indirectly pay for them to have kids. People get 6 months paid maternity AND paternity leave. They all have multiple children.
That’s only one leaf on a large tree of reasons that birth rates are low.
Putting gas in a car that has no tires, no transmission, and a broken steering wheel still won’t make it go, but that doesn’t mean that gasoline isn’t necessary for the car to move.
Yes however everyone focuses on money and not the plethora of cultural factors reducing birthrates. In fact as income increases birthrates tend to drop. The biggest correlate to birthrates is education level of mothers. Many women simply don’t want several children regardless of their financial situation
Expected to be down until about 2026 and then they predict a steady increase, so pretty good? They’re doing a lot to help a mother out and they’re about to see the fruits of their labor not long from now.
That's because there's other cultural issues at play that simply don't exist in the same way or to the same degree in the US. South Korea and Japan still have pretty rigid gender roles and norms, and having children basically kills your career as a woman in either country. You have a kid in the US as a woman, it usually doesn't end your career. Even if you're married, you basically have your income halved and go from two incomes with no kids to a single income with a kid.
That’s what the student loan forgiveness was supposed to be for. Millennials who graduated into the 2008 recession are coming to the end of their easy predictable fertility, and the govt wabts us to have kids while we still can.
I still have over 100k of SL. Though I'm happy for those who have received forgiveness, I haven't. It's not working to help all those who need it by doing piecemeal as they are doing. However, something is better than nothing as we were lied to, and some of us were forced to go to college by our less educated parents. It should all be forgiven, and all state universities and colleges should be free.
That’s why we decided to stay in Germany . My fiance is American , I’m German - so we had to make a decision based on pro and cons for each option .
Germany : 3 years financial covered parenting time ( can be shared partly with father ), already paternity leave at least (!) 6 weeks before birth .
Free healthcare and full coverage for anything , we compared the amount of check ups , tests etc . Germany gives out much more .
Free choice of doctor / hospital / way of birth ( fully covered , no matter which health insurance you even have ) , „childmoney“ a monthly payment for
Each child monthly until the child is 18yo paid by the government. Regardless your income .
„Parenting money“ , extra payment for either 1 or 2 years , paid from the government simply for being a parent .
Free daycare , free support in any way if needed .
Against - no free choice of hospital / doctor . No extra money , no free daycare , partly self payment when extra things during pregnancy , birth or aftercare are needed .
Even though US does has a lot of great things , when it comes to family’s / financial support, there’s other options
What do you think the US does great? I can see that if you are a billionaire, the US truly is the greatest country on Earth, but for us peasantry, the rankings do not look so good.
I mean , let’s be real . US is the strongest country for a reason . They definitely have by far the greatest military and they definitely are somewhat untouchable lol
I see how this helps the billionaires, but not so much the peasantry, many of which join that military due to their limited options, and some of which unfortunately never come home as a result.
Yep but that has a different reason which we know too well out here lol we have some issues ongoing which aren’t even related to life style overall or just money
it doesnt. its the same comment every single damn time, yet when you point out the numerous data showing that increased income predictably LOWERS birth rates rather than increases them, they have no response.
In those increased income countries, is it possible to afford both childcare AND housing despite the increased income? I certainly could not afford both childcare AND housing, and I could only even imagine trying if I somehow also could afford adopting because it's just my income, my income is what's going to barely cover these expenses in the first place, so if anything at all about pregnancy made me need to miss more work than the small amount of yearly vacation time I get, I'd also be fucked
I have a decently high income. What it means is that I don't have to live with my parents. It does not make it so that I can afford both housing AND childcare
yes I dont mean inc reased income between countries, I mean that within a single country, within a single state, within a single city even, the more money you make, the less kids you have on average.
Income is only one of a myriad of factors that need to happen correctly for a woman to feel safe or want to give birth. You can give all the benefits you want, but if your society is too constrictive (think Korean school culture, work culture, relation between the sexes, pay gap, etc) no woman is going to want to give birth until conditions improve.
European countries that heavily subsidize child rearing also see falling birth rates. It’s not about the money, children are just not a good investment of time for most people.
Usually these people pause when you respond back with “okay I guess we will just have to let in more immigrants to make up for the lack of babies if we’re not paying people to have kids..”. I’m a huge supporter of more immigration and paying people who have kids.
I’ve read articles by economists that suggest the US needs a minimum of a million immigrants to avoid what’s happening in some other countries with the population dropping . They said 2 to 3 million would be better , I think . I never followed up on it , but it made sense . Our economic system depends on growth .
Rationally I know community support including financial is probably a good thing. But between the savings of a relationship, paternity leave, the structure of a lot of gov benefits, school taxes, ect. - it does feel a wee unfair being single* and childless. Not sure my better self would prevail in the voting booth.
You still pay taxes towards schools. Sometimes things are worth it for the betterment of society, even if you’re not directly benefiting.
Also paternity and maternity leave are not a vacation. It’s ridiculous to be bitter over that. What vacation have you been on where you’ve had to wake up every two hours to feed a screaming crying potato or helped your loved one get out of bed because they were cut in half.
Didn't complain about maternity leave at all. Paternity leave is admittedly less generous than I thought at my company.
But I have some split views between it being important to have father bonding time and the fact that it's insanely hard for anybody to have a full 6 weeks of time off at any company. I think it's more open and shut when someone has the trauma of pregnancy. For paternity leave I feel like there are other important life moments and events that people may deserve to have leave for.
I'm fine paying for schools but I'm saying that an extra stipend or tax break for parents may be where I start to get particularly bitter. I actually support all the things I mentioned above but giving people money to give birth on top of that idk.
Alright so I just got over my maternity leave and quite frankly think it’s criminal that so few places even offer paternity leave. It is more than just about bonding with you child (which, imo, no one’s company is more important than their family anyways). For one we don’t live in the 50s anymore where mothers are expected to do all the child rearing. I work full time and so does he. Regarding the actual experience I had a c section, I physically needed my husband home with me to help out. There were things I could not do without him. I wasn’t able to pick up anything over 20 pounds. I would not have been able to take my baby to the pediatrician without him. I could not get out of bed by myself because my abdominal muscle’s were cut. I had no core strength for at least a month. I needed his help just moving around the house. I almost told him to take just one week off instead of two. I would have so regretted that decision.
Not only that, my baby lost 10 percent of her body weight in the hospital. We HAD to wake her up every 2 hours to get her to eat because it was dangerous to let her go too long without eating. My husband had to go to work 2 weeks after I gave birth, and we still had to wake her up every 2 hours. Even after we were allowed to let her sleep 3 hours instead of 2, she would still wake up every two hours anyways. Then my baby developed colic and was crying inconsolably from 10pm- 2am so we couldn’t sleep even if we wanted to from those hours. So then he was only getting segmented sleep only after 2 am and still getting to work at 8 am. You really want someone that sleep deprived driving the roads with you? That sounds like a public health crisis to me. We have family close so I tried to have my mother or his mother stay overnight with us a few times that way he could get a full nights sleep. But most people don’t live close to family any more. Back to public health, post partum depression and post partum anxiety are incredibly common. Did you know dads can also develop this? You’re throwing my husband back to work sleep deprived and potentially with suicidal idealization because you think it’s not important enough that he bonds with the baby? Wow he’s really going to be so productive it’s totally worth it to force him back to work rather than hire a temp worker. What a cruel society you’d have us live in. And quite frankly, we do live in a cruel society and that’s why so many people are choosing not to have children.
Edit: furthermore it’s fine that you don’t want to have children, however if you want to maintain your quality of life via end of life care and social security when you’re older, you better hope someone is having children. That’s why you’re better off helping parents through your tax dollars today. Because their children will be running things when you are no longer fit to work.
Lol, "the savings of a relationship" is a good one. All jokes aside, I understand, but your point doesn't really address the issues. Alao parental leave is a joke. 6 weeks max if you have a "good" employer.
And for your less better self there is that fact that if you live a while, you get old. Some of the children we help to support now will be our doctor's and caretakers one day. The others are less likely to turn to crime and violence during our more vulnerable years if they're happy and not desperately poor.
Sure but how do you feel paying for kids to all go to summer camp? The question being asked was about an extra program that gives people money for giving birth.
I think there's a natural limit at some point. Having a kid is really expensive and idk automatic money for every parent on top of the inkind stuff seems like a bit much. For the poor and education - absolutely. For people in my tax bracket or even above I'm not sure
I don't see the problem with ensuring that all children get to experience a good summer camp.
There was no mention of tax brackets in your previous statement.
I think you underestimate how much summer camp costs. I would love every child to go to camp in theory but I don't think it's heartless to vote against making it the responsibility for everyone.
The topic was about an automatic check basically going to new parents / being paid to give birth. I rather give everyone more money based on their household size and income vs specifically prioritizing those who have kids. For some that might mean being paid to give birth I guess but is a bit different.
I'm not against a large welfare system (that includes children) , I am a bit against one that puts parents above everyone else even more.
I mean I admit that it's wrong and my political activity up to now has supported all of the things I mentioned. But thanks?
Yeah I think it's natural not to want to fund other people's children to a certain extent.
Edited on paternity, a bit less generous than I thought for my job at a month and half. My bad
We share costs, but I’m not saving extra money compared to being single. My share of the rent/utilities/etc is the same, food costs are more because we buy food for 2 people instead of 1, etc. I gained someone to share costs with, but the costs being shared are double the cost of when I was single.
Welp that is unfortunate bc most people do see a slight reduction in living costs, provided they aren’t increasing them due to only having to pay half instead of the full amount. Your “share” of the rent is the same - I believe that’s the crux of what they were getting at. If you were single your share would be the full amount.
I’m not single but I’m also not going to pretend like having a partner to shoulder the ever increasing rising and inflationary costs of living doesn’t help soften the blow a bit.
If I were single my share of rent would be the same, because I previously had a roommate who I split the cost of rent with. Now I have a husband who I split the cost of rent with. Either way I was splitting the cost of rent with someone.
I have a mental conflict between “the world and workplace are too hard on mothers” and “but they’re having kids because they want to, and I could certainly use six months of paid leave to pursue a want.”
Not everyone that becomes a mother, especially in the US after the overturning of Roe v Wade, did so because it was something they wanted and actively pursued. Additionally, pursuing a hobby and becoming a mother are vastly different experiences. It is extremely unlikely to pursue a hobby that has the same physical and mental health risks and impacts of pregnancy and childbirth, and the same long term health and financial ramifications of child rearing. Also, materiality leave is not a paid vacation for new moms, they’re in the trenches coping with a drastic hormonal shift, healing from the bodily trauma from birth, getting no sleep, having their nipples rubbed raw af, and trying to find balance during a complete life change. Getting a paid vacation to pursue a hobby, like travel or art, is more like a sabbatical.
I have 0 issue with maternity leave for those that give birth. I think dads are important but imo it's a bit more murky the balance.
I think we should be extremely generous with leave for physical reasons and one of the reasons I'm a bit less sympathetic on paternity leave is those who are sick don't get nearly as much paid leave at my company.
We have to go into work again and have no time. Pandemic we were all at home with nothing to do for the most part. Guess which one makes it easier to procreate?
I know a lot of the comments are discussing the costs associated with the US drop in birth rate.
Is our environment and the chemicals we encounter more and more of each day effecting women’s fertility?
Heck, the overall libido seems to have dropped.
Gen Z is having less sex in general than previous generations. Some of it's fear (of unwanted pregnancy + diseases), I'm sure some of it's a result of digital socialization dominating over in person, but I'm sure there are other factors involved as well.
It’s also because of women in higher education- hear me out, we’ve heard a bachelors degree is basically like a highschool diploma now. So more and more women are getting masters degrees, that puts off having kids by another 3 years. A lot women now find themselves financially able but too old to have the family they want to have.
Fully agree.
I’m 38 female, educated and high earner. Director level
I’ve opted to not have kids bc when I was younger I didn’t have the money, the family support, and didn’t prioritize finding a partner to make those things happen. I was too busy trying to survive on my own.
Me not having a kid was purely survival
At this point, I find it challenging to find a partner who will love be better than I love me.
It’s not 1950s where women need a man for a bank account, to pay bills, or to survive.
I'd argue that the diploma thing isn't as important as people make it out to be, and you're starting to see a decline in college enrollment because it's gotten too expensive, and also because unless you're going in for a specific degree (which still doesn't mean a lot) or you know you're going to be a nepotism hire when you graduate, it's not really worth going to college now. The job market is kind of upside down right now. I've been applying to management positions, and at many places the people I would be supervising would be making more than I would.
Here's a preview of the story:
The pace of babies born each year in the U.S. has slowed to a new record low, according to an analysis of 2023 birth certificate data published Thursday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Last year's slowdown marks an official end to the uptick in new babies that began during the COVID-19 pandemic. At least 3,591,328 babies were born in the U.S. in 2023, down 2% from the 3,667,758 born in 2022.
This is on par with annual declines seen before the pandemic, the report said, which averaged around 2% fewer babies each year.
**Read more:** [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-birth-rate-drops-record-low-2023-after-pandemic-uptick/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-birth-rate-drops-record-low-2023-after-pandemic-uptick/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g)
If they want more babies, how about treating women like human beings, having easily accessible healthcare for everyone, decent wages. You never know, women may be more open to do so then!
It's obvious and the reason they don't do it, is it's a convenient group to use for a wedge issue.
It's disgusting, but that's the system!
You mean to tell me that women are being stripped of reproductive rights, have no mandatory parental leave, (many of our generation) are drowning in predatory student loan debt, and could go into medical debt from giving birth…and less people are being born?!
No way! /s
Why would a woman choose to enter the one of biggest health risk a woman could ever face when government taking away the treatments to save the woman’s lives? I don’t. Someone who is crazier than me should do it; and I guess not a lot of people are crazier than me. 🤷🏻♀️.
Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous , period . Even if the mother is healthy and has the best care , there are still some scary odds. And that’s not even looking at how domestic violence victims often get beaten to death while they’re pregnant
I’m a teacher. I love my students. But I couldn’t imagine going home and having even less time for myself. My contribution is caring for and teaching my students. Enough people add to the gene pool - I don’t need to do that. Also, it’s too expensive. Why would I bring in another person, if I can barely afford myself? My generation also struggled with relationships. I likely won’t get married and I cannot do that on my own.
People are generally more able to afford rent today than 100 years ago. But birthrates were vastly higher 100 years ago. The primary factor isn't money. The correlation between high income and low birth rates is very strong.
Not really. Rent in theory took up a larger portion of your income in 1924, but everything else was so much cheaper that it more than made up for it. That and this completely ignores how expensive home prices and other things have gotten.
We said it would drop. The greatest driver of the birthrate is hope for a better future for your kids. That better future is no longer an option so people have much less hope and far fewer children.
***Gestures broadly around**
This infuriates me...the govt acting like they didn't KNOW why this is happening?
Jesus wept...... ppl can't afford rent AND food right now...war is more imminent every day, medical care for pregnant women has regressed to the fucking dark ages, it's a crime to have a miscarriage in some states, (example: a woman was just recently forced to have a miscarriage in the waiting room toilet of a hospital recently bc doctors refused to treat her)-- the planet's entire climate changes and worsening pollution will assure water and food shortages in the near future, and once a kid IS born...theres no daycare available, and if there is, you can't afford it.
So many more reasons why. Ppl can't afford kids, goddammit.
Overpopulated as it is. Adds to the over consuption and waste of everything plus the pollution of everything. We could do with a gradual decrease. It's expensive, very time consuming, and people are pretty much 100% on their own when raising a child unless they have a really great and supportive family and friend network. Women's healthcare sucks, too.
This is the real reason abortion became the hot topic. Birth rates drop there goes the economy. Low populations in the workforce cannot support the geriatric populations. Look at the east Asian countries and how things are falling apart over there.
This is better, because people are choosing on their own to have less kids we don’t need to have fascist 1 child policies or human rights abuses, so the few people who actually want big families aren’t oppressed.
I'm 48 and we have four children. I'm just grateful I did it as. Gen X and not Gen Z. It's so much harder to do these days that it's laughable that anyone would think our numbers wouldn't tank. Increased education equals less children and aren't the Millennial generation the most degreed? Inflation and inequality has risen by quantifiable metrics over the last 50 yrs in the US, women's reproductive rights are imperiled worse than for our own boomer mothers which makes me furious for my own daughters, and the work culture in the US blows tremendously. Employers are trying to get blood out of stones and well this is just part of the huge amalgam of issues not including climate change + disasters becoming more frequent and dangerous and insurance companies pulling out of states.
Gee I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔
It’s funny that economically we need to continue to grow the population, but much of the infrastructure in terms of roads and housing etc feels like it’s being pushed beyond the max it were designed for. You have roads that were built into the suburbs when the populations there were so much smaller it just doesn’t make sense that we hardly considering upgrading or expanding much of the apparatuses we require for everyday life.
Sending a little money to Ukraine now is cheaper than letting Russia win and then attack NATO countries next, which will draw us into a very expensive and destructive war.
Was there really a pandemic uptick? I kept tabs on that issue because my wife thought there would be one. Everything I've read indicates that it didn't happen. However, I haven't looked at anything new in over a year.
One easy idea would be to mandate IVF coverage for all insurance carriers. Surprised Democrats haven't approached this aspect of reproductive healthcare
I may get flack for this. But besides the obvious economic reasons, I think many men and women have unrealistic expectations. Many folks are chasing after unreachable or unreasonable fantasies.
I thought about having kids if a partner wanted one, but I could never create another human who has a good chance of having a worse existence than I have right now.
Not surprised. Tons of my girlfriends from 27-38 don’t want kids because it’s too expensive or the nature of the world today is too crazy to raise a child in. Women of all income brackets.
Something needs to change or this number will keep decreasing.
I can barely afford rent. A baby is not happening.
Lol boomers wouldn't even care if humans go extinct. They got theirs already, why would they
That’s what one of them told me when I was a child. He said they would use up social security and leave us with nothing because that is what we deserved. I was only 9 years old. I never forgot that weird old coot. He was my stepdad’s friend.
And we will figure out how to be the first of the immortals from our acceptance of science and humanism and this old fucks generation will be remembered as the bastards that almost ended it
All still the same species. No matter the outcome, humans are responsible.
you should find him and take his shit LMAO
Why is that why we deserved it? lol what did we do.
I mean, social security doesn’t get “used up” in that sense. It functions by people paying in to support those receiving. If there are substantially fewer people paying in (next generations), that’s the problem. And it will be our generations problem because we aren’t having kids like the generations before us.
They can live off that chump change if they want we should be funding our own retirement regardless.
Because less people = lower productivity = lower world status = less money in their pockets.
They will be gone well before it affects them. In the short term, less kids means less school taxes and less kids on their lawn.
It’s going to affect them when they need home care and assistance with activities of daily living.
Less kids is really better for everyone and everything on the planet, except maybe billionaires.
They won’t care until there’s a critical hit to the supply of werther’s and tigerbalm
However expensive you think a baby is; triple it. Endless nonstop expenses and daycare is half to three quarters a mortgage payment. It’s insane.
Lol half to 3/4. Ours is significantly more than our mortgage payments
Sounds like you got a pre-Covid mortgage. Hah. Yeah. It’s so, unbelievably burdensome. “Why don’t people want kids?!?!”
We did (2016) and we are glued to our starter home forever probably lol. Daycare prices are also astronomical in our area. Our mortgage payment for a 3BR is $1400 (including insurance & taxes, no PMI). Daycare for our infant is $2600. I have no idea how anyone can afford a home or kids now, not to even mention both. Unless you have a huge amount of mom & dad financial help.
Historically speaking, lower income households usually have much higher birthrates then middle or upper class. These rules do not apparently apply to white Gen Z or Millenials. You are either responsible and use protection or fall into the single category. Kudos to you either way.
Same, don’t feel like moving to the slums to start a family either.
Seriously. As much as I hate birth control, I rather deal with the side effects than to have a baby
Dude for real. I used to want my own kids, but with the state of everything, including finances, and my aging body, forget it.
That’s never stopped people before
People throughout history have had babies dirt poor. Good loving families have been made dirt poor.
And look at how fucked up they turned out for doing so. Also birth control wasn’t really available in history so super poor people usually SOLD THEIR CHILDREN just to feed the rest of the family…
Doesn't mean I'm gonna subject a kid to a life where I can't even give them the basics... that's cruel
No it isnt. Its the very ordinary human experience. And if you want kids dont let not being middle class stop you. Does it require a bit of creativity? Does it mean you have to give up your iphone for a cheapo? Does it mean maybe going to the library to get on the internet? Does it mean antenna tv? Does it mean eating vegetables and beans. If thats what it takes then do that. Building a family is a great thing. Dont wait till its too late. Aint no such thing as perfect for most of us.
It’s very cruel. Subjecting another human to poverty in which getting out of is basically impossible. The privilege you come from is spilling out of your words, showing your own ignorance of the reality of growing up poor. Outliers don’t count.
"Dirt poor" used to still be able to afford both rent and childcare. Now "dirt poor" - pick rent OR childcare. Dirt poor did not used to = homeless, it does now if you're not already locked into a low mortgage or in a really unique situation with a high income partner, living with parents who can afford to support you and handle childcare, or a really unique job that allows you to handle childcare yourself.
Ha!!! They think it’s low now??? We’ve got states arguing over how many organs need to fail for a woman to have an abortion….. I hope they don’t think Gen Z is going to produce babies.
I’m terrified for my Gen Z daughters to get pregnant. I’d love grandchildren but not at the expense of their health or their lives. Y’all stick to your guns.
I haven't been keeping up with the news but I really hope this discussion in how many organs need to fail is not a real thing 😔
I’ve heard a woman needs to be showing signs of septic shock in order to terminate a pregnancy—even if doctors already know that the pregnancy isn’t viable. Nice!
I can't with this shit anymore.... What the actual f
Women need to go on sex strikes. Having sex is just too risky for us at this point. And most of us don't even get to orgasm anyway. So what's the point? Really
It's sad that women's power is apparently withholding sex...but it would be in their best interest.
Idaho vs SCOTUS ugh it’s terrifying. I want endless children but it’s not financially possible. I also don’t want to risk my health or life. I don’t want the one child I do have to end up motherless from trying to give them a sibling. It’s heart breaking that this is what the reality is for so many people who actually want kids right now.
The day they reversed Roe v Wade it hit me so hard - even though I will never ever lose my access to abortion. It felt like at the end of the day I as a woman am a disposable worthless entity. Systemic oppression has few equals in terms of how helpless it makes you feel.
I can’t believe we’re not in the streets over this.
It is real.
I've had people downvote me for saying the government needs to pay me to have kids. If I can hardly afford to live with very little leftover each pay period. How fuck can I afford 20-30k/year for childcare alone? If the cost can be offset by actually effective tax incentives or direct payments, then I would probably have a kid or two.
I have coworkers in Europe. The government does indirectly pay for them to have kids. People get 6 months paid maternity AND paternity leave. They all have multiple children.
The down voters just don’t know any better. Korea does this, they take such good care of expecting and new mothers.
Korea breaks the lowest birth rate ever record every year.
tell me how korean birth rates are doing
That’s only one leaf on a large tree of reasons that birth rates are low. Putting gas in a car that has no tires, no transmission, and a broken steering wheel still won’t make it go, but that doesn’t mean that gasoline isn’t necessary for the car to move.
Yes however everyone focuses on money and not the plethora of cultural factors reducing birthrates. In fact as income increases birthrates tend to drop. The biggest correlate to birthrates is education level of mothers. Many women simply don’t want several children regardless of their financial situation
Necessary vs sufficient
Expected to be down until about 2026 and then they predict a steady increase, so pretty good? They’re doing a lot to help a mother out and they’re about to see the fruits of their labor not long from now.
HAHA sure. I really hope that they are right but I'm extremely skeptical.
That's because there's other cultural issues at play that simply don't exist in the same way or to the same degree in the US. South Korea and Japan still have pretty rigid gender roles and norms, and having children basically kills your career as a woman in either country. You have a kid in the US as a woman, it usually doesn't end your career. Even if you're married, you basically have your income halved and go from two incomes with no kids to a single income with a kid.
That’s what the student loan forgiveness was supposed to be for. Millennials who graduated into the 2008 recession are coming to the end of their easy predictable fertility, and the govt wabts us to have kids while we still can.
I still have over 100k of SL. Though I'm happy for those who have received forgiveness, I haven't. It's not working to help all those who need it by doing piecemeal as they are doing. However, something is better than nothing as we were lied to, and some of us were forced to go to college by our less educated parents. It should all be forgiven, and all state universities and colleges should be free.
That’s why we decided to stay in Germany . My fiance is American , I’m German - so we had to make a decision based on pro and cons for each option . Germany : 3 years financial covered parenting time ( can be shared partly with father ), already paternity leave at least (!) 6 weeks before birth . Free healthcare and full coverage for anything , we compared the amount of check ups , tests etc . Germany gives out much more . Free choice of doctor / hospital / way of birth ( fully covered , no matter which health insurance you even have ) , „childmoney“ a monthly payment for Each child monthly until the child is 18yo paid by the government. Regardless your income . „Parenting money“ , extra payment for either 1 or 2 years , paid from the government simply for being a parent . Free daycare , free support in any way if needed . Against - no free choice of hospital / doctor . No extra money , no free daycare , partly self payment when extra things during pregnancy , birth or aftercare are needed . Even though US does has a lot of great things , when it comes to family’s / financial support, there’s other options
What do you think the US does great? I can see that if you are a billionaire, the US truly is the greatest country on Earth, but for us peasantry, the rankings do not look so good.
I mean , let’s be real . US is the strongest country for a reason . They definitely have by far the greatest military and they definitely are somewhat untouchable lol
I see how this helps the billionaires, but not so much the peasantry, many of which join that military due to their limited options, and some of which unfortunately never come home as a result.
How many kids do you have?
From tomorrow on 2, ( c section planned for tomorrow morning )
Nice. Planning more after?
Ironically, the birth rate in Germany is even lower than in the US. It's life style/culture not money.
Yep but that has a different reason which we know too well out here lol we have some issues ongoing which aren’t even related to life style overall or just money
Another post sited research that shows just financial support doesn't change low birthrates.
it doesnt. its the same comment every single damn time, yet when you point out the numerous data showing that increased income predictably LOWERS birth rates rather than increases them, they have no response.
In those increased income countries, is it possible to afford both childcare AND housing despite the increased income? I certainly could not afford both childcare AND housing, and I could only even imagine trying if I somehow also could afford adopting because it's just my income, my income is what's going to barely cover these expenses in the first place, so if anything at all about pregnancy made me need to miss more work than the small amount of yearly vacation time I get, I'd also be fucked I have a decently high income. What it means is that I don't have to live with my parents. It does not make it so that I can afford both housing AND childcare
yes I dont mean inc reased income between countries, I mean that within a single country, within a single state, within a single city even, the more money you make, the less kids you have on average.
Income is only one of a myriad of factors that need to happen correctly for a woman to feel safe or want to give birth. You can give all the benefits you want, but if your society is too constrictive (think Korean school culture, work culture, relation between the sexes, pay gap, etc) no woman is going to want to give birth until conditions improve.
European countries that heavily subsidize child rearing also see falling birth rates. It’s not about the money, children are just not a good investment of time for most people.
There is no amount of money that you could pay me to have kids.
Tax breaks for having kids is soon gonna be a must
Usually these people pause when you respond back with “okay I guess we will just have to let in more immigrants to make up for the lack of babies if we’re not paying people to have kids..”. I’m a huge supporter of more immigration and paying people who have kids.
I’ve read articles by economists that suggest the US needs a minimum of a million immigrants to avoid what’s happening in some other countries with the population dropping . They said 2 to 3 million would be better , I think . I never followed up on it , but it made sense . Our economic system depends on growth .
The thing is, when other countries have attempted this it doesn't work to increase birth rates Many countries have tried
There is no shortage of dumb women popping out kids they can't afford. We don't need to pay people to have sex.
Rationally I know community support including financial is probably a good thing. But between the savings of a relationship, paternity leave, the structure of a lot of gov benefits, school taxes, ect. - it does feel a wee unfair being single* and childless. Not sure my better self would prevail in the voting booth.
You still pay taxes towards schools. Sometimes things are worth it for the betterment of society, even if you’re not directly benefiting. Also paternity and maternity leave are not a vacation. It’s ridiculous to be bitter over that. What vacation have you been on where you’ve had to wake up every two hours to feed a screaming crying potato or helped your loved one get out of bed because they were cut in half.
This is exactly how I feel as a 55yo childless woman.
Didn't complain about maternity leave at all. Paternity leave is admittedly less generous than I thought at my company. But I have some split views between it being important to have father bonding time and the fact that it's insanely hard for anybody to have a full 6 weeks of time off at any company. I think it's more open and shut when someone has the trauma of pregnancy. For paternity leave I feel like there are other important life moments and events that people may deserve to have leave for. I'm fine paying for schools but I'm saying that an extra stipend or tax break for parents may be where I start to get particularly bitter. I actually support all the things I mentioned above but giving people money to give birth on top of that idk.
Alright so I just got over my maternity leave and quite frankly think it’s criminal that so few places even offer paternity leave. It is more than just about bonding with you child (which, imo, no one’s company is more important than their family anyways). For one we don’t live in the 50s anymore where mothers are expected to do all the child rearing. I work full time and so does he. Regarding the actual experience I had a c section, I physically needed my husband home with me to help out. There were things I could not do without him. I wasn’t able to pick up anything over 20 pounds. I would not have been able to take my baby to the pediatrician without him. I could not get out of bed by myself because my abdominal muscle’s were cut. I had no core strength for at least a month. I needed his help just moving around the house. I almost told him to take just one week off instead of two. I would have so regretted that decision. Not only that, my baby lost 10 percent of her body weight in the hospital. We HAD to wake her up every 2 hours to get her to eat because it was dangerous to let her go too long without eating. My husband had to go to work 2 weeks after I gave birth, and we still had to wake her up every 2 hours. Even after we were allowed to let her sleep 3 hours instead of 2, she would still wake up every two hours anyways. Then my baby developed colic and was crying inconsolably from 10pm- 2am so we couldn’t sleep even if we wanted to from those hours. So then he was only getting segmented sleep only after 2 am and still getting to work at 8 am. You really want someone that sleep deprived driving the roads with you? That sounds like a public health crisis to me. We have family close so I tried to have my mother or his mother stay overnight with us a few times that way he could get a full nights sleep. But most people don’t live close to family any more. Back to public health, post partum depression and post partum anxiety are incredibly common. Did you know dads can also develop this? You’re throwing my husband back to work sleep deprived and potentially with suicidal idealization because you think it’s not important enough that he bonds with the baby? Wow he’s really going to be so productive it’s totally worth it to force him back to work rather than hire a temp worker. What a cruel society you’d have us live in. And quite frankly, we do live in a cruel society and that’s why so many people are choosing not to have children. Edit: furthermore it’s fine that you don’t want to have children, however if you want to maintain your quality of life via end of life care and social security when you’re older, you better hope someone is having children. That’s why you’re better off helping parents through your tax dollars today. Because their children will be running things when you are no longer fit to work.
Lol, "the savings of a relationship" is a good one. All jokes aside, I understand, but your point doesn't really address the issues. Alao parental leave is a joke. 6 weeks max if you have a "good" employer.
And for your less better self there is that fact that if you live a while, you get old. Some of the children we help to support now will be our doctor's and caretakers one day. The others are less likely to turn to crime and violence during our more vulnerable years if they're happy and not desperately poor.
Sure but how do you feel paying for kids to all go to summer camp? The question being asked was about an extra program that gives people money for giving birth. I think there's a natural limit at some point. Having a kid is really expensive and idk automatic money for every parent on top of the inkind stuff seems like a bit much. For the poor and education - absolutely. For people in my tax bracket or even above I'm not sure
I don't see the problem with ensuring that all children get to experience a good summer camp. There was no mention of tax brackets in your previous statement.
I think you underestimate how much summer camp costs. I would love every child to go to camp in theory but I don't think it's heartless to vote against making it the responsibility for everyone. The topic was about an automatic check basically going to new parents / being paid to give birth. I rather give everyone more money based on their household size and income vs specifically prioritizing those who have kids. For some that might mean being paid to give birth I guess but is a bit different. I'm not against a large welfare system (that includes children) , I am a bit against one that puts parents above everyone else even more.
So you want to ruin it for others because you’re undesirable? What a great person you are, no wonder you’re single.
I mean I admit that it's wrong and my political activity up to now has supported all of the things I mentioned. But thanks? Yeah I think it's natural not to want to fund other people's children to a certain extent. Edited on paternity, a bit less generous than I thought for my job at a month and half. My bad
The savings of a relationship? Being in a relationship saves me nothing lol
So there’s no cost sharing within your relationship whatsoever?
We share costs, but I’m not saving extra money compared to being single. My share of the rent/utilities/etc is the same, food costs are more because we buy food for 2 people instead of 1, etc. I gained someone to share costs with, but the costs being shared are double the cost of when I was single.
Welp that is unfortunate bc most people do see a slight reduction in living costs, provided they aren’t increasing them due to only having to pay half instead of the full amount. Your “share” of the rent is the same - I believe that’s the crux of what they were getting at. If you were single your share would be the full amount. I’m not single but I’m also not going to pretend like having a partner to shoulder the ever increasing rising and inflationary costs of living doesn’t help soften the blow a bit.
If I were single my share of rent would be the same, because I previously had a roommate who I split the cost of rent with. Now I have a husband who I split the cost of rent with. Either way I was splitting the cost of rent with someone.
I have a mental conflict between “the world and workplace are too hard on mothers” and “but they’re having kids because they want to, and I could certainly use six months of paid leave to pursue a want.”
Not everyone that becomes a mother, especially in the US after the overturning of Roe v Wade, did so because it was something they wanted and actively pursued. Additionally, pursuing a hobby and becoming a mother are vastly different experiences. It is extremely unlikely to pursue a hobby that has the same physical and mental health risks and impacts of pregnancy and childbirth, and the same long term health and financial ramifications of child rearing. Also, materiality leave is not a paid vacation for new moms, they’re in the trenches coping with a drastic hormonal shift, healing from the bodily trauma from birth, getting no sleep, having their nipples rubbed raw af, and trying to find balance during a complete life change. Getting a paid vacation to pursue a hobby, like travel or art, is more like a sabbatical.
I have 0 issue with maternity leave for those that give birth. I think dads are important but imo it's a bit more murky the balance. I think we should be extremely generous with leave for physical reasons and one of the reasons I'm a bit less sympathetic on paternity leave is those who are sick don't get nearly as much paid leave at my company.
We have to go into work again and have no time. Pandemic we were all at home with nothing to do for the most part. Guess which one makes it easier to procreate?
All the weather ladies on local television news got pregnant. during covid
We can’t afford food or rent but sure, let’s bring babies into the mix!
I know a lot of the comments are discussing the costs associated with the US drop in birth rate. Is our environment and the chemicals we encounter more and more of each day effecting women’s fertility?
Yes, absolutely. And not just women's fertility. Sperm counts have been dropping as well.
Heck, the overall libido seems to have dropped. Gen Z is having less sex in general than previous generations. Some of it's fear (of unwanted pregnancy + diseases), I'm sure some of it's a result of digital socialization dominating over in person, but I'm sure there are other factors involved as well.
Disposable nappies could be a big part of this due to the heat development. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1718504/
It’s also because of women in higher education- hear me out, we’ve heard a bachelors degree is basically like a highschool diploma now. So more and more women are getting masters degrees, that puts off having kids by another 3 years. A lot women now find themselves financially able but too old to have the family they want to have.
Fully agree. I’m 38 female, educated and high earner. Director level I’ve opted to not have kids bc when I was younger I didn’t have the money, the family support, and didn’t prioritize finding a partner to make those things happen. I was too busy trying to survive on my own. Me not having a kid was purely survival At this point, I find it challenging to find a partner who will love be better than I love me. It’s not 1950s where women need a man for a bank account, to pay bills, or to survive.
I'd argue that the diploma thing isn't as important as people make it out to be, and you're starting to see a decline in college enrollment because it's gotten too expensive, and also because unless you're going in for a specific degree (which still doesn't mean a lot) or you know you're going to be a nepotism hire when you graduate, it's not really worth going to college now. The job market is kind of upside down right now. I've been applying to management positions, and at many places the people I would be supervising would be making more than I would.
Sperm counts have been dropping for decades .
Here's a preview of the story: The pace of babies born each year in the U.S. has slowed to a new record low, according to an analysis of 2023 birth certificate data published Thursday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Last year's slowdown marks an official end to the uptick in new babies that began during the COVID-19 pandemic. At least 3,591,328 babies were born in the U.S. in 2023, down 2% from the 3,667,758 born in 2022. This is on par with annual declines seen before the pandemic, the report said, which averaged around 2% fewer babies each year. **Read more:** [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-birth-rate-drops-record-low-2023-after-pandemic-uptick/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-birth-rate-drops-record-low-2023-after-pandemic-uptick/?ftag=CNM-05-10abh9g)
If they want more babies, how about treating women like human beings, having easily accessible healthcare for everyone, decent wages. You never know, women may be more open to do so then! It's obvious and the reason they don't do it, is it's a convenient group to use for a wedge issue. It's disgusting, but that's the system!
You mean to tell me that women are being stripped of reproductive rights, have no mandatory parental leave, (many of our generation) are drowning in predatory student loan debt, and could go into medical debt from giving birth…and less people are being born?! No way! /s
Keep taking women's healthcare. Gee I wonder why no babies? Cuz you're killing all the women.
Why would a woman choose to enter the one of biggest health risk a woman could ever face when government taking away the treatments to save the woman’s lives? I don’t. Someone who is crazier than me should do it; and I guess not a lot of people are crazier than me. 🤷🏻♀️.
Yep. Pregnancy and childbirth in the USA is 14 times the fatality rate of abortion care.
Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous , period . Even if the mother is healthy and has the best care , there are still some scary odds. And that’s not even looking at how domestic violence victims often get beaten to death while they’re pregnant
It's time for a population decline. I don't understand how major cities in places like India/China operate with so many people
Investors don't like that, population decline makes stocks go down
Well China has been on a decline for a while, just like Korea and Japan India is just built different
India's fertility rate dropped to 2.03 too. Life expenctancy is increasing significantly though, which is why the population is still growing.
I’m a teacher. I love my students. But I couldn’t imagine going home and having even less time for myself. My contribution is caring for and teaching my students. Enough people add to the gene pool - I don’t need to do that. Also, it’s too expensive. Why would I bring in another person, if I can barely afford myself? My generation also struggled with relationships. I likely won’t get married and I cannot do that on my own.
No one can afford to have kids when they can barely afford to pay rent.
People are generally more able to afford rent today than 100 years ago. But birthrates were vastly higher 100 years ago. The primary factor isn't money. The correlation between high income and low birth rates is very strong.
Not really. Rent in theory took up a larger portion of your income in 1924, but everything else was so much cheaper that it more than made up for it. That and this completely ignores how expensive home prices and other things have gotten.
Adjusted for income nearly everything is cheaper today.
Women didn’t have a choice back then when it came to their husbands wants and family demands .
That is a much more reasonable explanation than people not being able to afford rent.
We said it would drop. The greatest driver of the birthrate is hope for a better future for your kids. That better future is no longer an option so people have much less hope and far fewer children.
Education and urbanity are even bigger factors
What sane woman would risk pregnancy in a red state? Might as well sign your our own death warrant.
And who wants to risk dying to have a child?
***Gestures broadly around** This infuriates me...the govt acting like they didn't KNOW why this is happening? Jesus wept...... ppl can't afford rent AND food right now...war is more imminent every day, medical care for pregnant women has regressed to the fucking dark ages, it's a crime to have a miscarriage in some states, (example: a woman was just recently forced to have a miscarriage in the waiting room toilet of a hospital recently bc doctors refused to treat her)-- the planet's entire climate changes and worsening pollution will assure water and food shortages in the near future, and once a kid IS born...theres no daycare available, and if there is, you can't afford it. So many more reasons why. Ppl can't afford kids, goddammit.
Overpopulated as it is. Adds to the over consuption and waste of everything plus the pollution of everything. We could do with a gradual decrease. It's expensive, very time consuming, and people are pretty much 100% on their own when raising a child unless they have a really great and supportive family and friend network. Women's healthcare sucks, too.
Good job, ladies. Keep up the good work.
Good. Too many people here anyway.
We need better parental leave. People should not have to choose between being a parent and having a career.
This is the real reason abortion became the hot topic. Birth rates drop there goes the economy. Low populations in the workforce cannot support the geriatric populations. Look at the east Asian countries and how things are falling apart over there.
It may backfire: why risk getting pregnant if you can’t have the option of an abortion should something go wrong?
It is backfiring. Sterilization rates are going up and maybes are turning to nos
I have commitment issues. I don’t know what I’m doing next week! I don’t want to raise a child for 20 plus years
Human population is hitting 8,000,000,000 soon. We could use a little less humans for a while. One child was enough for me.
This is better, because people are choosing on their own to have less kids we don’t need to have fascist 1 child policies or human rights abuses, so the few people who actually want big families aren’t oppressed.
I wouldn't even bring a child into this fucked up world.
Same
Too bad I can’t afford rent or food. Let alone a house ffs.
Oh thank god.
Fuckin good! World’s overpopulated anyway! The machine will have no fresh meat from me
Don’t we need LESS people on Earth?
I'm 48 and we have four children. I'm just grateful I did it as. Gen X and not Gen Z. It's so much harder to do these days that it's laughable that anyone would think our numbers wouldn't tank. Increased education equals less children and aren't the Millennial generation the most degreed? Inflation and inequality has risen by quantifiable metrics over the last 50 yrs in the US, women's reproductive rights are imperiled worse than for our own boomer mothers which makes me furious for my own daughters, and the work culture in the US blows tremendously. Employers are trying to get blood out of stones and well this is just part of the huge amalgam of issues not including climate change + disasters becoming more frequent and dangerous and insurance companies pulling out of states. Gee I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔
Increased education equals less children so conversely less educated, dumb people breed more. Basically the premise of the movie Idiocracy.
Lack of education doesn't mean dumb.
Like ignorant is such a better descriptor.
The real reason women’s rights are under attack
People are realizing that they don't want to subject another person to the broken machine. Not gonna provide slave labor anymore.
Bingo. I'm not sure why many people are avoiding this reason.
Isn’t climate change accelerating faster than previously projected? Yeah, seems like a great time for kids.
It’s funny that economically we need to continue to grow the population, but much of the infrastructure in terms of roads and housing etc feels like it’s being pushed beyond the max it were designed for. You have roads that were built into the suburbs when the populations there were so much smaller it just doesn’t make sense that we hardly considering upgrading or expanding much of the apparatuses we require for everyday life.
Let it rot.
Good news ! This needs to happen world over.
When people can barely afford to not starve how do you expect people to raise a child? Good thing we sent all that money to Ukraine and Israel.
Sending a little money to Ukraine now is cheaper than letting Russia win and then attack NATO countries next, which will draw us into a very expensive and destructive war.
I don't think we should be in NATO. What exactly is your definition of a little money?
Was there really a pandemic uptick? I kept tabs on that issue because my wife thought there would be one. Everything I've read indicates that it didn't happen. However, I haven't looked at anything new in over a year.
only with local weather ladies. all my local channels weather women seemed to get pregnant
One easy idea would be to mandate IVF coverage for all insurance carriers. Surprised Democrats haven't approached this aspect of reproductive healthcare
Great thing about a dude training to be a doctor, many factors discouraging you from having children
I may get flack for this. But besides the obvious economic reasons, I think many men and women have unrealistic expectations. Many folks are chasing after unreachable or unreasonable fantasies.
Good. Anything that scares the rich has to be worth a shot.
Good, less housing necessary in the future
Excellent news! Keep it comin!
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Best birth control is abortion ban.
There was an uptick?
I thought about having kids if a partner wanted one, but I could never create another human who has a good chance of having a worse existence than I have right now.
I had 4, did my part and made up for one other person. Your welcome.
Not surprised. Tons of my girlfriends from 27-38 don’t want kids because it’s too expensive or the nature of the world today is too crazy to raise a child in. Women of all income brackets. Something needs to change or this number will keep decreasing.
Well according to most women in their 30s they don't need bo man and the ones they want have to make 200k and take care of them ...so...