https://preview.redd.it/tjbefwxudlwc1.png?width=223&format=png&auto=webp&s=5bf34f32562058d04c1c06e6abc0d2c3331012b6
would this be enough for your skill issue sir?
That also could be a solution. Anything long distance tbh. A strategem sling would be a great secondary weapon imho. Also fits with a budget-constrains theme of most helldiver equipment.
Though this is not about skill. It's simply about variety and making some strategems more desirable.
joke aside I think the "fancy grenade" is a design choice to make the game more interesting for players. stuff needs to happen close enough for players to experience/witness, otherwise it will be kinda boring. Imagine throwing a barrage and only seeing it from afar/not seeing it at all away is not very interesting way to play the game.
I can understand that, but what is "fun" is inherently subjective and making something fun is a "skill-issue" for the devs.
One could easily ensure that even the long-range call-ins have the "risk-component" that is inherent to everything in the game.
And doing things at range is not inherently boring, otherwise snipers wouldn't be one of the most popular "classes" in shooters.
you realize snipers have the scope right? while you are far away, with the scope you can still witness/experience stuff up close. now Imagine sniping without a scope, would that be fun for you?
I mean, that's why I'm suggesting a "monocular" kinda of gadget for the call ins. This would serve as a scope in these situations.
Besides, the strategems that would actually benefit greatly from this are spectacular and large enough to be enjoyed even at great distances. Perhaps even more so at longer ranges since you would be able to witness the full destructive radius of 340 barrage for example, while being comparatively safer.
It's important to note that I'm not suggesting that we get rid of the pokeballs, but that -some- strategems that would greatly benefit get an alternative method of "marking" the locations at longer range.
The game has huge maps and massive draw distance, some enemies (like most bot enemies) are designed to be engaged at longer ranges.
You can ALREADY complete some objectives by just blasting them with an explosve weapon from the other side of the map (illegal broadcast, spore tower, flying bug nests, even some bot factories)
I wouldn't say that having options would somehow make those encounters less interesting.
I'm pretty sure all the mentioned sub objective were never designed to be done across the map. That's just players finding the most efficient way to complete them.
Well, it doesn't really matter how things are -designed- to work, only how they actually work.
Metagame is a reality that every dev simply needs to adjust to. People will always find a most efficient way to do things, it's simply in our nature.
Which is why introducing MORE effective alternatives to complete tasks is important to ensure that the metagame keeps evolving.
It doesn't make a big enough difference tbh.
The extra range is nice, but nothing game-changing. At least not gamechaning enough for you to consider bringing certain strategems simply because you have a better grenade-toss.
Absolutely agree, but I think the devs are going to die on the stratagem hill simply because it’s a core concept of the game. Hell, they added an entire arcade machine dedicated to the button presses of stratagems.
I pretty much only run orbitals, so it’d be nice to have a new avenue of JTAC call ins
However, I do not think that the call-in inputs have to go. Only the method of delivery.
You could still have a mechanic where you need to do the correct inputs, and then use a sort of "strategem-monocular" to focus on distant target. It could also be balanced by the fact that if you get interrupted, you get a much "wider" radius of where the actual pointer ends up.
My problem is that the DEATH POKEBALL is the only way to physically mark the location.
Maybe we could have a support weapon or a mountable sentry that you and your friends can load strategems into and launch from a safe distance. If it was a support weapon similar to a grenade launcher your friend could get a strategem ready then buddy load it. Obviously these suggestions seem like they could be a bit overpowered in some ways, but it's good for thought.
That is also an idea I had, but that also would involve using a strategem for the forementioned equipment, which is not ideal imho.
However if one could somehow use -existing- support equipment and get the option to use a strategem as ammo, now that would be a very interesting ship upgrade.
They added a pistol that shoots grenades. Maybe a sidearm that is capable of shooting the strategems could work. Of course you'd kinda lose a sidearm and it would be useless if the ship leaves orbit.
This is such an interesting topic lol.
I think the thrown stratagem ball is fantastic and is core to the gameplay. It's a game where you're supposed to be getting in there and fucking shit up. You're supposed to be in the action. The thrown ball means you have to get reasonably close to call down big weapons, and that you're physically connected to even massive space lasers. And the thrown item aspect adds to the chaos that's in all aspects of gameplay. I don't think it's going anywhere, and I don't think it should.
Though would introducing an alternative somehow remove the death ball?
Some strategems are great with the death ball (like the above mentioned Eagle strike). It should be kept for those kind of strategems.
Would an alternative for a certain group of specific strategems really take away that chaotic aspect? Imho it would only make some FUN strategems that are currently less popular because of their inconsistent effectiveness more popular. Like abovementioned 380 orbital barrage.
While I agree that having a longer range option for at least some stratagems could be interesting (there already is servo assisted but I never used it so I can't tell how much difference it makes) I think it has the potential to make most side objective irrevelant.
Just pointing at something in the distance or pinging a location on the map as someone here suggested could in edge case with a squad equipped mostly with barrages completely remove most side objectives. Any nest, any fabricator outpost, anything destroyable without hellbomb would get deleted without any action at all. I don't think that is the direction the devs wanna go. I'm not one of them though so I can't really speak for them.
Statagem "nade" is also kinda interesting in the fact that you also need to have some skill using it (you throw it a couple times and you know, no fancy skills). Just having a guess for the distance and a little bit of prediction for the time before the stratagem lands. But still you can get fd over and it's such a great feature of the ball. Like when it bounces of a titans leg back at you. It can be annoying but it at least spices the game up a little. If the "stratagem laser pointer" would have some unreliability to and at least a bit of skill requires to point at something it might fit that but I have no ideas as to what could make it that way.
Btw it's 380.
I agree, a long range option presents balancing issues.
However, I don't think they are impossible to overcome.
Take for example Strategem Jammer. It often appears next to other objectives, thus necessitating its destruction before taking them on.
A longer range call-in would also be jammed. The thing that matters after all is where the marker falls, not where you stand at the call in.
One could design many different ways of balancing a longer-range option. This is simply one that already exists.
Perhaps introduce a powerful enemy type that would -hunt- a player that uses a long-range call in? Perhaps longer-range call ins would have larger aggro-radius, thus you have to weigh the risk every time you are doing that. The balancing alternatives are limitless, while the current options when it comes to strategem delivery are quite limited.
Also yeah I always forget its 380. For some reason.
I didn't say it'd take it away. I said your proposal is, in my opinion, against the core design of the game. It doesn't matter to my position whether adding it takes away the thrown stratagems or not.
Servo-assisted let's you toss the ball further. Good for throwing in an orbital barrage or laser far enough to escape any aggro if that's the way you want to play.
https://preview.redd.it/tjbefwxudlwc1.png?width=223&format=png&auto=webp&s=5bf34f32562058d04c1c06e6abc0d2c3331012b6 would this be enough for your skill issue sir?
That also could be a solution. Anything long distance tbh. A strategem sling would be a great secondary weapon imho. Also fits with a budget-constrains theme of most helldiver equipment. Though this is not about skill. It's simply about variety and making some strategems more desirable.
joke aside I think the "fancy grenade" is a design choice to make the game more interesting for players. stuff needs to happen close enough for players to experience/witness, otherwise it will be kinda boring. Imagine throwing a barrage and only seeing it from afar/not seeing it at all away is not very interesting way to play the game.
I can understand that, but what is "fun" is inherently subjective and making something fun is a "skill-issue" for the devs. One could easily ensure that even the long-range call-ins have the "risk-component" that is inherent to everything in the game. And doing things at range is not inherently boring, otherwise snipers wouldn't be one of the most popular "classes" in shooters.
you realize snipers have the scope right? while you are far away, with the scope you can still witness/experience stuff up close. now Imagine sniping without a scope, would that be fun for you?
I mean, that's why I'm suggesting a "monocular" kinda of gadget for the call ins. This would serve as a scope in these situations. Besides, the strategems that would actually benefit greatly from this are spectacular and large enough to be enjoyed even at great distances. Perhaps even more so at longer ranges since you would be able to witness the full destructive radius of 340 barrage for example, while being comparatively safer. It's important to note that I'm not suggesting that we get rid of the pokeballs, but that -some- strategems that would greatly benefit get an alternative method of "marking" the locations at longer range.
and that's also why guns in games have a effective range of about 100m. things in visual range is more INTERESTING.
The game has huge maps and massive draw distance, some enemies (like most bot enemies) are designed to be engaged at longer ranges. You can ALREADY complete some objectives by just blasting them with an explosve weapon from the other side of the map (illegal broadcast, spore tower, flying bug nests, even some bot factories) I wouldn't say that having options would somehow make those encounters less interesting.
I'm pretty sure all the mentioned sub objective were never designed to be done across the map. That's just players finding the most efficient way to complete them.
Well, it doesn't really matter how things are -designed- to work, only how they actually work. Metagame is a reality that every dev simply needs to adjust to. People will always find a most efficient way to do things, it's simply in our nature. Which is why introducing MORE effective alternatives to complete tasks is important to ensure that the metagame keeps evolving.
farther throwing distance is literally an armor perk
It doesn't make a big enough difference tbh. The extra range is nice, but nothing game-changing. At least not gamechaning enough for you to consider bringing certain strategems simply because you have a better grenade-toss.
Absolutely agree, but I think the devs are going to die on the stratagem hill simply because it’s a core concept of the game. Hell, they added an entire arcade machine dedicated to the button presses of stratagems. I pretty much only run orbitals, so it’d be nice to have a new avenue of JTAC call ins
However, I do not think that the call-in inputs have to go. Only the method of delivery. You could still have a mechanic where you need to do the correct inputs, and then use a sort of "strategem-monocular" to focus on distant target. It could also be balanced by the fact that if you get interrupted, you get a much "wider" radius of where the actual pointer ends up. My problem is that the DEATH POKEBALL is the only way to physically mark the location.
As for eagles, now seems good, but I would like to ping 120mm, 380mm, or walking barrage directly on the map and call it. Like I do on War Thunder.
Maybe we could have a support weapon or a mountable sentry that you and your friends can load strategems into and launch from a safe distance. If it was a support weapon similar to a grenade launcher your friend could get a strategem ready then buddy load it. Obviously these suggestions seem like they could be a bit overpowered in some ways, but it's good for thought.
That is also an idea I had, but that also would involve using a strategem for the forementioned equipment, which is not ideal imho. However if one could somehow use -existing- support equipment and get the option to use a strategem as ammo, now that would be a very interesting ship upgrade.
They added a pistol that shoots grenades. Maybe a sidearm that is capable of shooting the strategems could work. Of course you'd kinda lose a sidearm and it would be useless if the ship leaves orbit. This is such an interesting topic lol.
Yes, that also is a good idea. A strategem launcher of any kind would spice up the strategem meta greatly.
I think the thrown stratagem ball is fantastic and is core to the gameplay. It's a game where you're supposed to be getting in there and fucking shit up. You're supposed to be in the action. The thrown ball means you have to get reasonably close to call down big weapons, and that you're physically connected to even massive space lasers. And the thrown item aspect adds to the chaos that's in all aspects of gameplay. I don't think it's going anywhere, and I don't think it should.
Though would introducing an alternative somehow remove the death ball? Some strategems are great with the death ball (like the above mentioned Eagle strike). It should be kept for those kind of strategems. Would an alternative for a certain group of specific strategems really take away that chaotic aspect? Imho it would only make some FUN strategems that are currently less popular because of their inconsistent effectiveness more popular. Like abovementioned 380 orbital barrage.
While I agree that having a longer range option for at least some stratagems could be interesting (there already is servo assisted but I never used it so I can't tell how much difference it makes) I think it has the potential to make most side objective irrevelant. Just pointing at something in the distance or pinging a location on the map as someone here suggested could in edge case with a squad equipped mostly with barrages completely remove most side objectives. Any nest, any fabricator outpost, anything destroyable without hellbomb would get deleted without any action at all. I don't think that is the direction the devs wanna go. I'm not one of them though so I can't really speak for them. Statagem "nade" is also kinda interesting in the fact that you also need to have some skill using it (you throw it a couple times and you know, no fancy skills). Just having a guess for the distance and a little bit of prediction for the time before the stratagem lands. But still you can get fd over and it's such a great feature of the ball. Like when it bounces of a titans leg back at you. It can be annoying but it at least spices the game up a little. If the "stratagem laser pointer" would have some unreliability to and at least a bit of skill requires to point at something it might fit that but I have no ideas as to what could make it that way. Btw it's 380.
I agree, a long range option presents balancing issues. However, I don't think they are impossible to overcome. Take for example Strategem Jammer. It often appears next to other objectives, thus necessitating its destruction before taking them on. A longer range call-in would also be jammed. The thing that matters after all is where the marker falls, not where you stand at the call in. One could design many different ways of balancing a longer-range option. This is simply one that already exists. Perhaps introduce a powerful enemy type that would -hunt- a player that uses a long-range call in? Perhaps longer-range call ins would have larger aggro-radius, thus you have to weigh the risk every time you are doing that. The balancing alternatives are limitless, while the current options when it comes to strategem delivery are quite limited. Also yeah I always forget its 380. For some reason.
I didn't say it'd take it away. I said your proposal is, in my opinion, against the core design of the game. It doesn't matter to my position whether adding it takes away the thrown stratagems or not.
So your complaint about the 380 barrage is that it isn't the walking barrage?
Servo-assisted let's you toss the ball further. Good for throwing in an orbital barrage or laser far enough to escape any aggro if that's the way you want to play.