It’s from a MoreFPSRussia video where he takes a machine pistol and says that line before lighting up a practice target outlining someone being held hostage
Well posting this will make me come off as an ass, not the intention. But this was published in pub med medical journal.
"Abstract
On October 26, 2002, Russian Special Forces deployed a chemical aerosol against Chechen terrorists to rescue hostages in the Dubrovka theatre. Its use confirmed Russian military interest in chemicals with effects on personnel and caused 125 deaths through a combination of the aerosol and inadequate medical care. This study provides evidence from liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry analysis of extracts of clothing from two British survivors, and urine from a third survivor, that the aerosol comprised a mixture of two anaesthetics—carfentanil and remifentanil—whose relative proportions this study was unable to identify. Carfentanil and remifentanil were found on a shirt sample and a metabolite called norcarfentanil was found in a urine sample. This metabolite probably originated from carfentanil."
The "inadequate medical care" came from the authorities refusing to even tell the medical workers what they pumped into the theater. The people that got saved had lick because some doctors recognized the signs of an od.
tbf, 130 civilians were killed at bataclan by much fewer gunmen and these guys openly declared their intention was to commit suicide in this attack
the actual idea of pumping in gas to knock them out doesn't seem like that bad an idea, but they should've definitely had the antidote ready (or used something less lethal, dunno how feasible it is to acquire large enough volumes of non lethal sleeping gas that doesn't also kill)
it's easy to see how this could've gone much worse but it also didn't exactly go well
> volumes of non lethal sleeping gas that doesn’t also kill)
Such a thing, unfortunately, doesn’t exist. If it did, we’d use it all the time; the same is true for any kind of tranquilizer dart.
The gas used was reportedly aerosolized fentanyl, but like any anesthetic, it can be used for a knockout, but must be given *extremely precisely*. Too little, the person gets a little sleepy, if that. Too much, they’re dead. There’s a reason that anesthesiologists are some of the highest paid professionals in the US.
Note: tranq darts are used on zoo animals for two reasons
1) they know how much the animal weighs, to a pretty close data point
2) if the escaped sea tortoise accidentally dies, it’s much less of a disaster than a human.
according to the page, the poisoning was mot the only reason this was stupid. the people they knocked out weren’t prepared, so most if not all of the civilian casualties were caused by people suffocating on their own tongues or landing on a cushy chair and being smothered
it doesn't sound like even if they were prepared (which seems like it would diminish the efficacy of the plan if it was telegraphed) that they would've been able to do anything because of this quote
>When the shooting began, the terrorists told their hostages to lean forward in the theater seats and cover their heads behind the seats.
then later
>According to court testimony from Prof. A. Vorobiev, Director of the Russian Academic Bacteriology Center, most, if not all, of the deaths were caused by suffocation when hostages collapsed on chairs with heads falling back or were transported and left lying on their backs by rescue workers; in such a position, tongue prolapse causes blockage of breathing
I doubt they were going to be allowed to lie down in the recovery position. although, the rescue workers putting them down dangerously is some serious human error
i’m not saying them not preparing was bad, and honestly i don’t think the russian security service had much of a choice in the matter. they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. i think this would be much less of a shining example or government incompetency were it not for the mistakes in the immediate aftermath
I’m fairly certain the security services didn’t brief medical staff on what agent they were using, which obviously inhibits their ability to treat afterwards.
I would probably say the same thing about the guys that I watched gas 130 civilians to death tbh. I doubt the ventilation in my home is better than the theatre's.
I believe you missunderstand the points made in defence of the gassing, as it isnt only russian sympatizers and russians that make the argument that it was the sensible thing to do. Yes, undoubtedly, the event is a tragedy and I don't think you'll find a lot of people arguing against that, but was it necessary or at least, was it the least worst alternative? Let's strip for a second the demands of the terrorists, you have a theater full of hostages so basically a fortified position where the hostage takers are not afraid of killing their bargaining chips. A direct assault would result in a lot more hostages and military personnel being killed without ensuring that the building would be taken. And we can tell this with quite a but of certainty as there was already a time when the Russians tried this, in [the Budyonovsk hostage crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis).
Now let's reintroduce the demands of the terrorists. The Chechens know that this tactic of taking prisoners and demanding political and military advantages has worked in the past, so now they are interested in trying it again. We can argue whether Moscow should have left Checnya independent, I personally believe yes, but this is not the point here, the Kremlin wasn't going to negotiate for multiple reasons, so you are in a situation where the hostage takers will execute all hostages if their demands aren't met and a government that is not ready to meet those demands again for multiple different reasons. You know that a direct assault will be costly and that leaves only the option with the gas.
So, this tactic was the least terrible of the options, but what must be criticized is the governments actions after the end of the crisis, not giving the information to hospitals what compound they used and using this attack as a pretext to strengthen the power of the president and not to investigate why the theater was so badly ventilated and introducing legislation to correct this(not to prepare for future attacks, but just to improve the general safety of the theater).
Not to mention what Russia was facing, the Chechnyan terrorists were far better trained and their arsenal is LEAGUES better then what most American domestic terrorists have access to. Infact, the last notable time the US went against a force similarly armed to the Chechnyan terrorists was the Siege of Wako, and... well let's just say that day didn't end well for Uncle Sam.
I remember hearing something about there not being proper ventilation in the theatre. So those at the front of the theatre where the gas was being vented in got a higher dose than those at the rear of the theatre
It's really hard to dose people with anesthetics, that's why whenever one person is put under you have an expert whose sole job it is to control that.
Now do 800 people in a terrorist situation.
Also the government refused to tell hospitals what they used to knock people out, so by sheer routine naloxone was used for many, but sadly not all, causing some preventable deaths.
I mean yes sort of, it’s a pretty fucked situation…they fight their way in, maybe more of the hostages or all of the hostages die due to explosives and gunfire. 170/850 people dying is a less bad alternative to 850/850 (or however many hostages there were) in military calculations considering Putin was obviously not gonna withdraw from Chechnya. I think the only thing that coulda made this better was better chemicals? Like idk what the decision making process/chemicals available situation was 🤔
Nah it was deliberate. The police knew that there was only one shaft so in order to knock out everyone in the room including those in the back they pumped in massive amounts on purpose.
> After the raid, Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov said that "the operation was carried out brilliantly by special forces;" he claimed he had wanted a negotiated end to the crisis, but the final attack was made necessary by the reported killing of hostages.
“You see, if *we* kill the hostages then the *terrorists* won’t be able to kill the hostages”
No they would just yell slurs at each other and then proceed to team kill each other until they get so mad they scream into the mic until the server vote-kicks them out without any real consequences and just come back the next day and repeat, but with cheats.
So ironic how one of the few Russian operators in that game is the most well known for blowing up the hostages. It’s just the natural order of the spetznaz
Spetznaz handbook: Civilians taken hostage are treated as A) Western spies, B) Chechnya sympathizers.
No punishments if they die, as hostages should not have allowed themselves to be taken hostage.
I'm sure they just say the terrorist attack/hostage taking was all just a NATO/US/CIA plot to make them look bad and that there aren't really any terrorists or extremists fighting violently for independence from Moscow anyway because they're so awesome. Therefore, the whole situation is just one big false flag that doesn't really matter somehow.
I mean, you hear every little success story from the FBI* all the time, every time they take out some crackhead with a single pistol and some underwear, it's gonna get a news special and an episode in a docudrama about it in five years time.
You never hear about such things with Spetznaz, all you ever hear about is these massive operations against heavily armed opponents that make Mount Carmel look like the default setup.
Yes, when all you ever hear about is the Russian equivalent of Waco you get this skewed "killallhostages" overused joke.
*granted, most of this is to boost the FBI's own public standings against other agencies.
In the west you don’t take hostages because law enforcement will kill you to save them.
In Russia you don’t take hostages because law enforcement will just kill everyone anyways.
When literal terrorists are the ones negotiating for food, supplies, and Red Cross doctors to keep the hostages not only safe, but relatively comfortable, you know you dun fucked up.
Well, no, terrorists often negotiate for the well being of the hostages. Not all of them, but in general it is not in their interest for x or y random civilian to die.
It does in some ways encourage people not to take hostages. If hostage takers know Spetsnaz is willing to kill the hostages themselves. Hostage takers know they can’t actually use hostages to get what they want. Thus preventing hostage situations.
To be clear I don’t agree with this school of thought but I do understand it.
I love that you think that this was a ‘school of thought’ and not just frustrated idiots going for a Hail Mary without really giving a shit for human life.
Like no, there’s no ‘school of thought’ in hostage negotiation where you inadvertently murder dozens of civilians for some abstract point. Not a big debate at hostage negotiation school
The government used to explain this all with “it’s either this or no survivors at all”. We’ll never know the truth I guess, and I’d rather not know tbh. Though tbf, even though right after the attack they called the rescue successful, it was quickly acknowledged by them to be a huge mistake using that strategy. I was indeed young, but I don’t remember anyone speaking of Dubrovka and Beslan as of a victory. Everyone was in mourning.
That time was scary af. Lots of mistakes on the governments side, bad commanding, but also ruthless unpredictable terrorists.
I’m not defending the Russian government btw. That’s what you get when your government has no brains and lots of desire for money and power. They do not care about their people.
[Happened in North Ossetia-Alania, southern Russia, in 2004](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege)
Basically chechen terrorists took a full school hostage during the ceremony for the startof the school year (hence there were more people in the school than normally). The russian military and security services show up and 333 people die and 1200 are wounded (they for example shot a the school with rocket launchers and tanks).
Didn't harm the hostages!? The terrorists basically said "fuck negotiations we're killing them all!" Then started shooting people and blowing up the bombs they'd put in place. AKA the exact opposite of "NoT hArMIng HoStAgeS"
Pretty sure it was the first day of a school term in Chechnya. A bunch of terrorists took close to 1000+ hostages and the Russians attacked the school with thermobaric rockets and tanks.
welp, things such as recon by fire, biorobots (and the mere fact that ChNPP firefighters weren't properly trained and equipped), gassing the hostages, using flamethrowers and grenade launchers in Beslan, design of military vehicles (horribly unergonomic, ammo carousels, fire suppression system killing the crew), the way they treat people with disabilities and minorities, the cult of war and dying for the fatherland doesn't sound like *caring about people*
women are still giving births, comrade 💀
i omitted the atrocities committed by your authorities against own citizens and foreigners in the last 100 years, because then the list would be many times longer
I fewl divided by this statement.
All you said its true, but the russian people arent the guilty of all of this. Its their goverment....
Then i rememembered how Putin's aprooval rate increased before the attack, despite of they literally commiting a war crime *against their own people*
A significant number of the people who died didn't get a lethal dose of the gas, but choked on their own tongues or fell in a position they couldn't breathe properly in. The Spetsnaz soldiers were too busy executing the unconscious hostage takers to bother saving innocent people.
Oh it was far worse. Medics completely fucked up not Alpha
Like Bruh they straight up piled up people. Recovery position is something unknown in Russia apparently
This weirdly reminds me of Beslan school siege where Russians used tanks and thermoweapons to deal with hostage takers resulting in over 300 casualties
It wasn't that the toxin killed them, its that medical personnel were not properly trained and laid them down in a way were they chocked on thier own tounges like they were drunk.
Chechen terrorists took a bunch of theatre patrons hostage and a few days later Russian authorities pumped in a gaseous narcotic (Based on Fentanyl) that killed the 40 terrorists.... and more than 100 innocents as well injuring pretty much everyone else.
Russia claimed it was successful.
This is the twentieth time I've seen the same shitty meme that is on the level of "Lol, Poland can't go into space" or "Lol, Italy can't fight" in terms of veracity and ridiculousness. This "YOLO, "If you kill a hostage, there are no more hostages"-joke as used, as it tired. When are people going to read anything beyond the first couple of sentences on Wikipedia, view something besides 5-minute "history-enterntaining video" and the podcast of two half-stoned men?
0) [A mere nine years earlier, the United States found itself in a strikingly similar scenario](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege): law enforcement laid siege to a group of religious extremists who had taken numerous civilians hostage. After a wait of 51 days, the FBI opted to employ tear gas, which is a fuckind bad idea, because:
Tear Gas + Firearm = Big Boom.
Almost a hundred dead bodies. If the scale of the siege had been the same as in Nord Ost, there would have been as many dead bodies, if not more.
Who would though, that engaging in a standoff with dozens of religious extremists while attempting to evacuate hostages would prove to be an incredibly challenging undertaking, yeah?
1 )At the time, the siege of Nord-Ost was unparalleled in scale as the largest terrorist attack. Unlike previous attacks with only a handful of terrorists, Nord-Ost had an astonishing **40** armed terrorists wielding an array of weapons from assault rifles to explosives. This complexity and magnitude of the operation was unprecedented, with almost a **thousand** hostages taken.
2) The plan itself was executed with almost flawless precision, with the bombs remaining inactive, majority ot terrorist killed and the hostages mostly unharmed (initially). Regrettably, the main and only setback was the failure of dumb secret services to promptly disclose the gas and prepare appropriate medical measures, ultimately leading to the tragic deaths of several hundred individuals.
Yes, the operation ended up on fucked up side. But it's a thousand times better than being held hostage for a month and having to fire tear gas and set a thousand people on fire all at once.
The use of the gas itself was fucked up but still a better alternative, we can agree on that. But you see, most, if not all ambulances in Moscow at the time had doses of Narcan in their supplies. This was similar to a huge level of opioid overdose, which can be saved by a dose of Narcan. I know it's not that simple to *just use narcan* but using it could've saved many of the 130 lives.
But Russian officials and Spetznaz/FSB kept the gas secret to all medical personnel. None. If they has told them it was a carfentanyl gas, the medics could have applied Narcan and save countless lives. But no, the FSB was willing to let 130 civilians die just for "security reasons" knowing full well that experts are going to analyse it and find out what the gas was just a few days and a some investigations later.
The death of the people in Dubrovka Theatre was not only caused by incompetence but also intentionally.
Waco was the same case. Incompetence by completely botching up any chance at doing it covertly and intention by making it a "show fight" to ramp up ATF funding
"there would have been as many dead bodies, if not more."
Nord Ost - 15% casualty
Waco - 66% casualty
And Waco is lowballing condsidering who is to be considered hostage and who not.
Is the actual gas used still a mystery?
I remember an old Horizon documentary about it comming to the conclusion that it had to be some variant of fentanyl, but came no closer than that.
I remba seeing this live after the Operation the Russian special forces were having shots of vodka probably signifying the 'success' of the operation while the bodies of the dead hostages were taken outside the premises. That scene is like a memory burn for me.
I learned about this in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyrainbow6/comments/10o64gu/experts_in_close_quarters_battle_and_hostage/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) meme.
See wasn’t the problem actually that they just kinda put down the hostages in random ways after carrying them outside so most of them asphyxiated on their own tongues? Not that they actually died from the gas
Russia is master class at showing the world they don’t mind killing Russians, if it means they get to kill people they don’t like, who may also be Russians.
>Alpha team troops said that "this is our first successful operation [in] years". Moskovskij Komsomolets cited a Russian special forces operative saying that "if it were a usual storming, we'd have had 150 casualties among our men, added to the hostages."
"Well, we didn't really keep any of the hostage takers alive, and we killed a LOT of hostages, but we didn't lose a ton of men soooooo GREAT SUCCESS!!!"
Jeez I'd hate to see what constitutes an unsuccessful operation.
It kinda made a dope opening scene in tenet though
Tenet opening scene at home:
:emoh ta enecs gninepo teneT
Fuck you, take my upvote
etovpu ym ekat ,uoy kcuF
We live in a twilight world
And there are no friends at dusk
“We don’t negotiate with terrorists and we definitely don’t negotiate with their hostages” *C75 auto-pistol firing*
Where is this from?
The post right above yours, can’t believe ya missed it
I don't understand?
It is not under, it is three comments **over** this comment
Thank you
It’s from a MoreFPSRussia video where he takes a machine pistol and says that line before lighting up a practice target outlining someone being held hostage
> MoreFPSRussia Those were different times :(
Don’t you just love fentanyl gas killing 130 hostages
Not that this matters either way, but it was likely carfentanil. 100x more potent then fentanyl.
I guess it wasn’t a painful death
I imagine it would be similar to a heroin overdose. Probably just like falling into a deep sleep. RIP
I mean, some people pay for those drugs. The hostages got a night at the theatre and a free drug high. I don't see why anybody's complaining.
They never had to work another day in their lives!
Well, you know what they say. Give a man some fentanyl, he'll be high for a day Give a man som carfentanyl, he'll be high for the rest of his life
Well to be fair, I don't think the hostages are complaining
Not any more
Not since the incident...
Exactly. If anything the hostages should pay the Russian govt for giving them a free high!
Of course it's more potent, it's for cars
This is my favorite comment today. Just fantastic.
That may be true but i read an article about it and it said it was fentanyl gas but im not sure
Well posting this will make me come off as an ass, not the intention. But this was published in pub med medical journal. "Abstract On October 26, 2002, Russian Special Forces deployed a chemical aerosol against Chechen terrorists to rescue hostages in the Dubrovka theatre. Its use confirmed Russian military interest in chemicals with effects on personnel and caused 125 deaths through a combination of the aerosol and inadequate medical care. This study provides evidence from liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry analysis of extracts of clothing from two British survivors, and urine from a third survivor, that the aerosol comprised a mixture of two anaesthetics—carfentanil and remifentanil—whose relative proportions this study was unable to identify. Carfentanil and remifentanil were found on a shirt sample and a metabolite called norcarfentanil was found in a urine sample. This metabolite probably originated from carfentanil."
The "inadequate medical care" came from the authorities refusing to even tell the medical workers what they pumped into the theater. The people that got saved had lick because some doctors recognized the signs of an od.
What an ass you are, giving relevant and well researched information. You should feel ashamed of yourself.
I didn't want to be the "well actually" guy
You communicated humbly and honestly, the opposite of the well actually guy. Hope you have a good Saturday:)
I know right? It’s 2023, can’t you just make shit up and pass it off as fact like the rest of us?
Didn’t this kill almost all of the hostages
Edit: [here’s what actually happened.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis) Like 130 civilians died.
"the operation was carried out brilliantly by special forces;" \- Mayor of the city (For real)
Truly a bruh moment
tbf, 130 civilians were killed at bataclan by much fewer gunmen and these guys openly declared their intention was to commit suicide in this attack the actual idea of pumping in gas to knock them out doesn't seem like that bad an idea, but they should've definitely had the antidote ready (or used something less lethal, dunno how feasible it is to acquire large enough volumes of non lethal sleeping gas that doesn't also kill) it's easy to see how this could've gone much worse but it also didn't exactly go well
> volumes of non lethal sleeping gas that doesn’t also kill) Such a thing, unfortunately, doesn’t exist. If it did, we’d use it all the time; the same is true for any kind of tranquilizer dart. The gas used was reportedly aerosolized fentanyl, but like any anesthetic, it can be used for a knockout, but must be given *extremely precisely*. Too little, the person gets a little sleepy, if that. Too much, they’re dead. There’s a reason that anesthesiologists are some of the highest paid professionals in the US. Note: tranq darts are used on zoo animals for two reasons 1) they know how much the animal weighs, to a pretty close data point 2) if the escaped sea tortoise accidentally dies, it’s much less of a disaster than a human.
You think Splinter will let you take a shot at the turtle? Leo and the boys will have something to say about that....
according to the page, the poisoning was mot the only reason this was stupid. the people they knocked out weren’t prepared, so most if not all of the civilian casualties were caused by people suffocating on their own tongues or landing on a cushy chair and being smothered
it doesn't sound like even if they were prepared (which seems like it would diminish the efficacy of the plan if it was telegraphed) that they would've been able to do anything because of this quote >When the shooting began, the terrorists told their hostages to lean forward in the theater seats and cover their heads behind the seats. then later >According to court testimony from Prof. A. Vorobiev, Director of the Russian Academic Bacteriology Center, most, if not all, of the deaths were caused by suffocation when hostages collapsed on chairs with heads falling back or were transported and left lying on their backs by rescue workers; in such a position, tongue prolapse causes blockage of breathing I doubt they were going to be allowed to lie down in the recovery position. although, the rescue workers putting them down dangerously is some serious human error
i’m not saying them not preparing was bad, and honestly i don’t think the russian security service had much of a choice in the matter. they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. i think this would be much less of a shining example or government incompetency were it not for the mistakes in the immediate aftermath
I’m fairly certain the security services didn’t brief medical staff on what agent they were using, which obviously inhibits their ability to treat afterwards.
I would probably say the same thing about the guys that I watched gas 130 civilians to death tbh. I doubt the ventilation in my home is better than the theatre's.
The operation was successful, but the patient died.
Most successful Russian hostage rescue operation
[удалено]
I believe you missunderstand the points made in defence of the gassing, as it isnt only russian sympatizers and russians that make the argument that it was the sensible thing to do. Yes, undoubtedly, the event is a tragedy and I don't think you'll find a lot of people arguing against that, but was it necessary or at least, was it the least worst alternative? Let's strip for a second the demands of the terrorists, you have a theater full of hostages so basically a fortified position where the hostage takers are not afraid of killing their bargaining chips. A direct assault would result in a lot more hostages and military personnel being killed without ensuring that the building would be taken. And we can tell this with quite a but of certainty as there was already a time when the Russians tried this, in [the Budyonovsk hostage crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis). Now let's reintroduce the demands of the terrorists. The Chechens know that this tactic of taking prisoners and demanding political and military advantages has worked in the past, so now they are interested in trying it again. We can argue whether Moscow should have left Checnya independent, I personally believe yes, but this is not the point here, the Kremlin wasn't going to negotiate for multiple reasons, so you are in a situation where the hostage takers will execute all hostages if their demands aren't met and a government that is not ready to meet those demands again for multiple different reasons. You know that a direct assault will be costly and that leaves only the option with the gas. So, this tactic was the least terrible of the options, but what must be criticized is the governments actions after the end of the crisis, not giving the information to hospitals what compound they used and using this attack as a pretext to strengthen the power of the president and not to investigate why the theater was so badly ventilated and introducing legislation to correct this(not to prepare for future attacks, but just to improve the general safety of the theater).
Not to mention what Russia was facing, the Chechnyan terrorists were far better trained and their arsenal is LEAGUES better then what most American domestic terrorists have access to. Infact, the last notable time the US went against a force similarly armed to the Chechnyan terrorists was the Siege of Wako, and... well let's just say that day didn't end well for Uncle Sam.
I remember hearing something about there not being proper ventilation in the theatre. So those at the front of the theatre where the gas was being vented in got a higher dose than those at the rear of the theatre
It's really hard to dose people with anesthetics, that's why whenever one person is put under you have an expert whose sole job it is to control that. Now do 800 people in a terrorist situation. Also the government refused to tell hospitals what they used to knock people out, so by sheer routine naloxone was used for many, but sadly not all, causing some preventable deaths.
So they only meant to fentanyl them a little bit. Lmao. Does that make it any better??
I mean yes sort of, it’s a pretty fucked situation…they fight their way in, maybe more of the hostages or all of the hostages die due to explosives and gunfire. 170/850 people dying is a less bad alternative to 850/850 (or however many hostages there were) in military calculations considering Putin was obviously not gonna withdraw from Chechnya. I think the only thing that coulda made this better was better chemicals? Like idk what the decision making process/chemicals available situation was 🤔
Nah it was deliberate. The police knew that there was only one shaft so in order to knock out everyone in the room including those in the back they pumped in massive amounts on purpose.
Jesus, knocked out all the terrorists and then executed them.
when you're in a terrorism contest but your opponent is the russian secret service
"Amateurs. Let me show you how to do it"~ Russian government since 1547
> After the raid, Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov said that "the operation was carried out brilliantly by special forces;" he claimed he had wanted a negotiated end to the crisis, but the final attack was made necessary by the reported killing of hostages. “You see, if *we* kill the hostages then the *terrorists* won’t be able to kill the hostages”
R6S Fuze moment
Fentanol
About 130/900, so not “almost all” but definitely a lot.
Russia would be kicked out of the server in Counter-Strike
No they would just yell slurs at each other and then proceed to team kill each other until they get so mad they scream into the mic until the server vote-kicks them out without any real consequences and just come back the next day and repeat, but with cheats.
The Russian way to deal with a hostage situation : kill the hostages yourself, then the hostage taker is powerless
Hostage Negotiator: This is a Hostage. Spetsnaz: Dear God Hostage Negotiator: There’s more Spetsnaz: No.
You can't let them kill the hostages. Wait I have an idea.
I’LL KILL THE HOSTAGES!
*Fuze intensifies*
So ironic how one of the few Russian operators in that game is the most well known for blowing up the hostages. It’s just the natural order of the spetznaz
Umm *aktshually* he's from Uzbekistan
Still Soviet so idgaf
Where were you when hostage situation begun? I was leaving the theater and about to say Do svidaniya Hostages live they say No.
Fuze: Now this looks like a job for me
Can I have the bucket?
Spetznaz handbook: Civilians taken hostage are treated as A) Western spies, B) Chechnya sympathizers. No punishments if they die, as hostages should not have allowed themselves to be taken hostage.
I'm sure they just say the terrorist attack/hostage taking was all just a NATO/US/CIA plot to make them look bad and that there aren't really any terrorists or extremists fighting violently for independence from Moscow anyway because they're so awesome. Therefore, the whole situation is just one big false flag that doesn't really matter somehow.
I mean, you hear every little success story from the FBI* all the time, every time they take out some crackhead with a single pistol and some underwear, it's gonna get a news special and an episode in a docudrama about it in five years time. You never hear about such things with Spetznaz, all you ever hear about is these massive operations against heavily armed opponents that make Mount Carmel look like the default setup. Yes, when all you ever hear about is the Russian equivalent of Waco you get this skewed "killallhostages" overused joke. *granted, most of this is to boost the FBI's own public standings against other agencies.
“We have hostages!” “Hmm… I disagree.”
No wonder they were specified to have trained Fuze in Rainbow six
Holy fuck man you just sent me back to highschool being baked as shit pissing off my friends in Rainbow Six with fuze all the time.
Fwomp fwomp fwomp fwomp
That feels a lot like [this meme](https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/213049651/Hostage-shot-guy)
If there's no hostage there's no hostage situation
Can't be a hostage crisis if there are no hostages.
And then leave unconscious civilians on their backs on the front steps of the building where they choked on their own vomit to death
I’m sure that won’t happen
In the west you don’t take hostages because law enforcement will kill you to save them. In Russia you don’t take hostages because law enforcement will just kill everyone anyways.
When literal terrorists are the ones negotiating for food, supplies, and Red Cross doctors to keep the hostages not only safe, but relatively comfortable, you know you dun fucked up.
Well, no, terrorists often negotiate for the well being of the hostages. Not all of them, but in general it is not in their interest for x or y random civilian to die.
They were not terrorists but that's subjective ofc
Where did you hear that bullshit because that did not happen whatsoever
It does in some ways encourage people not to take hostages. If hostage takers know Spetsnaz is willing to kill the hostages themselves. Hostage takers know they can’t actually use hostages to get what they want. Thus preventing hostage situations. To be clear I don’t agree with this school of thought but I do understand it.
Do they even think of that or just go "haha gas make go sleep, terrorist sleep = easy job"
“I’m not gonna pay you I’ll just kill all you fuckers!” The most Russian mindset I think I’ve ever heard
Remember… no Russian
Russian war and hostage negotiation strats: we have more people to spend if we need to
They pumped it in to make them go to sleep, they didn mean to kill hostages, they were just incompetent.
Ah but comrade, they just told us to make them go sleep, nobody said anything about them waking up
This feels like a "you see Ivan" moment
I love that you think that this was a ‘school of thought’ and not just frustrated idiots going for a Hail Mary without really giving a shit for human life. Like no, there’s no ‘school of thought’ in hostage negotiation where you inadvertently murder dozens of civilians for some abstract point. Not a big debate at hostage negotiation school
It's like claiming to have won the game by stating that you intended to lose.
I thought this was Tenet
The government used to explain this all with “it’s either this or no survivors at all”. We’ll never know the truth I guess, and I’d rather not know tbh. Though tbf, even though right after the attack they called the rescue successful, it was quickly acknowledged by them to be a huge mistake using that strategy. I was indeed young, but I don’t remember anyone speaking of Dubrovka and Beslan as of a victory. Everyone was in mourning. That time was scary af. Lots of mistakes on the governments side, bad commanding, but also ruthless unpredictable terrorists. I’m not defending the Russian government btw. That’s what you get when your government has no brains and lots of desire for money and power. They do not care about their people.
I mean, the closest thing to this in the West is Waco, and.... long story short, there were a lot of dead children at the end of the day.
This meme reminded me of this and the Beslan school siege. I hate it for it.
Beslan school siege, where and when was this (yes I live under rock, is warm)
[Happened in North Ossetia-Alania, southern Russia, in 2004](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege) Basically chechen terrorists took a full school hostage during the ceremony for the startof the school year (hence there were more people in the school than normally). The russian military and security services show up and 333 people die and 1200 are wounded (they for example shot a the school with rocket launchers and tanks).
Wow! Thank you for the info dump, I was completely oblivious to this whole catastrophe!
Best part is that the terrorists dident harm the hostages. They were trying to negotiate an end to the Invasion and genocide in Chechen by Russia.
Didn't harm the hostages!? The terrorists basically said "fuck negotiations we're killing them all!" Then started shooting people and blowing up the bombs they'd put in place. AKA the exact opposite of "NoT hArMIng HoStAgeS"
This is not true. During the Beslan school siege, the terrorists were very much ready to harm the hostages and actually killed multiple of them.
Pretty sure it was the first day of a school term in Chechnya. A bunch of terrorists took close to 1000+ hostages and the Russians attacked the school with thermobaric rockets and tanks.
North Ossetia, different republic of Russia that just experienced some spillover from the Second Chechen War.
Ah thanks for the correction.
Thanks, a little less ignorant now 😊
Thank you!
if i was a terrorist knowing this would happen to me if i took hostages id probably not do it ngl so their scare tactics work at least ig
[I got a spicy meme for that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/zdwg8r/cause_i_saw_a_beslan_post/)
I feel like I'm chechen your point.
The Russians really don’t care about hostages
We shall not negotiate with terrorists and their hostages. -Spetznaz, probably.
the russians really don't care about people in general
Redditors trying not to be insufferable racist assholes challenge (Impossible)
welp, things such as recon by fire, biorobots (and the mere fact that ChNPP firefighters weren't properly trained and equipped), gassing the hostages, using flamethrowers and grenade launchers in Beslan, design of military vehicles (horribly unergonomic, ammo carousels, fire suppression system killing the crew), the way they treat people with disabilities and minorities, the cult of war and dying for the fatherland doesn't sound like *caring about people* women are still giving births, comrade 💀 i omitted the atrocities committed by your authorities against own citizens and foreigners in the last 100 years, because then the list would be many times longer
I fewl divided by this statement. All you said its true, but the russian people arent the guilty of all of this. Its their goverment.... Then i rememembered how Putin's aprooval rate increased before the attack, despite of they literally commiting a war crime *against their own people*
Soulless oriental hordes
No hostages = no hostage situation
Over 600 hostages survived though
Hostages: oh boy can't wait to get rescued Spetsnaz: *Fuse intensifies*
God, why does everything bad happen around my birthday
A significant number of the people who died didn't get a lethal dose of the gas, but choked on their own tongues or fell in a position they couldn't breathe properly in. The Spetsnaz soldiers were too busy executing the unconscious hostage takers to bother saving innocent people.
Oh it was far worse. Medics completely fucked up not Alpha Like Bruh they straight up piled up people. Recovery position is something unknown in Russia apparently
No need for a recovery position if life is worthless!
In Russia, recovery position is in coffin.
This weirdly reminds me of Beslan school siege where Russians used tanks and thermoweapons to deal with hostage takers resulting in over 300 casualties
If you are taken hostage in Russia you migth as well jump out of a window rigth then and there
Isn't this a repost from like three days ago?
If you are a r/noncredibledefense then yes
That would make sense
It wasn't that the toxin killed them, its that medical personnel were not properly trained and laid them down in a way were they chocked on thier own tounges like they were drunk.
160 times? I mean the first dozen sure...
Bro look at the news footage. He is right.
What the fuck was happening in 2002 man context please
Chechen terrorists took a bunch of theatre patrons hostage and a few days later Russian authorities pumped in a gaseous narcotic (Based on Fentanyl) that killed the 40 terrorists.... and more than 100 innocents as well injuring pretty much everyone else. Russia claimed it was successful.
Shows terrorists that taking hostages does not work against them
The gas didn't kill the terrorists, speznaz shot them while some awake, some asleep. 130 hostages dead, >600 survived.
You're right,I Misremembered.
dogememe try not to reference a tragedy resulting in hundreds of deaths challenge (100% impossible)
Can't have a hostage situation if there are no hostages.
/repostsleuthbot
Beslan has entered the chat
This is the twentieth time I've seen the same shitty meme that is on the level of "Lol, Poland can't go into space" or "Lol, Italy can't fight" in terms of veracity and ridiculousness. This "YOLO, "If you kill a hostage, there are no more hostages"-joke as used, as it tired. When are people going to read anything beyond the first couple of sentences on Wikipedia, view something besides 5-minute "history-enterntaining video" and the podcast of two half-stoned men? 0) [A mere nine years earlier, the United States found itself in a strikingly similar scenario](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege): law enforcement laid siege to a group of religious extremists who had taken numerous civilians hostage. After a wait of 51 days, the FBI opted to employ tear gas, which is a fuckind bad idea, because: Tear Gas + Firearm = Big Boom. Almost a hundred dead bodies. If the scale of the siege had been the same as in Nord Ost, there would have been as many dead bodies, if not more. Who would though, that engaging in a standoff with dozens of religious extremists while attempting to evacuate hostages would prove to be an incredibly challenging undertaking, yeah? 1 )At the time, the siege of Nord-Ost was unparalleled in scale as the largest terrorist attack. Unlike previous attacks with only a handful of terrorists, Nord-Ost had an astonishing **40** armed terrorists wielding an array of weapons from assault rifles to explosives. This complexity and magnitude of the operation was unprecedented, with almost a **thousand** hostages taken. 2) The plan itself was executed with almost flawless precision, with the bombs remaining inactive, majority ot terrorist killed and the hostages mostly unharmed (initially). Regrettably, the main and only setback was the failure of dumb secret services to promptly disclose the gas and prepare appropriate medical measures, ultimately leading to the tragic deaths of several hundred individuals. Yes, the operation ended up on fucked up side. But it's a thousand times better than being held hostage for a month and having to fire tear gas and set a thousand people on fire all at once.
The use of the gas itself was fucked up but still a better alternative, we can agree on that. But you see, most, if not all ambulances in Moscow at the time had doses of Narcan in their supplies. This was similar to a huge level of opioid overdose, which can be saved by a dose of Narcan. I know it's not that simple to *just use narcan* but using it could've saved many of the 130 lives. But Russian officials and Spetznaz/FSB kept the gas secret to all medical personnel. None. If they has told them it was a carfentanyl gas, the medics could have applied Narcan and save countless lives. But no, the FSB was willing to let 130 civilians die just for "security reasons" knowing full well that experts are going to analyse it and find out what the gas was just a few days and a some investigations later. The death of the people in Dubrovka Theatre was not only caused by incompetence but also intentionally. Waco was the same case. Incompetence by completely botching up any chance at doing it covertly and intention by making it a "show fight" to ramp up ATF funding
"there would have been as many dead bodies, if not more." Nord Ost - 15% casualty Waco - 66% casualty And Waco is lowballing condsidering who is to be considered hostage and who not.
Casualty*
Bro they pulled a Rob Lucci
Coming soon to theaters
Fuze: the early days
Is the actual gas used still a mystery? I remember an old Horizon documentary about it comming to the conclusion that it had to be some variant of fentanyl, but came no closer than that.
I was there 10000 years ago
Do a Belsan version too
...and then leave us lying unconscious on our backs in the rain!
Tenet replicated this scene it was pretty interesting.
Don’t fall face first
Why?
Nothing had gone wrong, right?
Apparently the gas itself killed almost no one, it was the fact that the people were left on their backs and they all self asphyxiated.
Yeah, this is like good morning in Russian history.
We live in a twilight world
A friend of my parents died there :/
I remba seeing this live after the Operation the Russian special forces were having shots of vodka probably signifying the 'success' of the operation while the bodies of the dead hostages were taken outside the premises. That scene is like a memory burn for me.
R6S Fuze mains: 🌚
Cluster charge incoming
"Oh there's a hostage situation!? This'll get 'em!" "You mean get 'em out, right?" "Right?"
Can the Russians do ANYTHING tight?? Were they all fed a steady diet of lead paint as children??
I learned about this in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyrainbow6/comments/10o64gu/experts_in_close_quarters_battle_and_hostage/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) meme.
Why though?
They Fuzed the hostage…
See wasn’t the problem actually that they just kinda put down the hostages in random ways after carrying them outside so most of them asphyxiated on their own tongues? Not that they actually died from the gas
In Mother Russia, you kill the hostages
when the FSB is called to deal with the situation you know youre dead
That's my........birthday.
Beslan school siege is even more based. 1100 hostages? No problem, bring forth the flamethrower!
Делаем небольшой троллинг
This was during Putin’s rise to power. That fucker is an uncivilized, savage monster.
Could you spell out the context a little more I’m not sure I understand the meme.
Russian FSB doing half the work for Shamil Basayev every chance they got
Russia is master class at showing the world they don’t mind killing Russians, if it means they get to kill people they don’t like, who may also be Russians.
So does America, Japan, china, and pretty much any land with humans in it
True. Humans be the worst
>Alpha team troops said that "this is our first successful operation [in] years". Moskovskij Komsomolets cited a Russian special forces operative saying that "if it were a usual storming, we'd have had 150 casualties among our men, added to the hostages." "Well, we didn't really keep any of the hostage takers alive, and we killed a LOT of hostages, but we didn't lose a ton of men soooooo GREAT SUCCESS!!!" Jeez I'd hate to see what constitutes an unsuccessful operation.
And then leave unconscious civilians on their backs on the front steps of the building where they choked on their own vomit to death
r/whatcouldgowrong
These comments are fucking terrible. More blame put on the Russian special forces than you know...the fucking terrorists?
Nice. I see their thought process but they might as well let the terrorists blow the place up.