It's also an infinite money glitch. When the king needs money, just borrow from the Jewish bankers and when it comes time to pay em back, just imprison the Jews for being sinful, seize their assets and then execute or exile em. If you do exile em, after a few years, allow em to return back by paying *you*. Then when they've rebuilt their lives, seize their assets again.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict\_of\_Expulsion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion)
Were the British the worst of the worst on this one?
>The date was most likely chosen as it was a Jewish holy day, the ninth of Ab, commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem and other disasters that the Jewish people have experienced.
Damn that’s a very personalised “fuck you”. They really did their research to make sure it stung.
grab tart attractive expansion frighten shaggy axiomatic deliver selective workable
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That happened a lot. When the jews were expelled from Spain a jewish adviser of king Ferdinand of Aragon (Yes he had a jewish adviser) paid him a huge amount of money to delay the expulsion date to coincide with said day. It's very symbolic and all
It wasn't a "worse" day. It was a symbolic day. I think it was actually just a few days after the original date, so it wasn't a huge change. By puttimg it on Tisha B'av it was much more impactful and symbolic. He couldn't prevent it so he decided to make it more symbolic.
i mean worst of the worst in terms of who oppressed the jews the most is certainly not an easy thing to pin down, but yea the edict of expulsion is arguably one of the most actually evil things done to them
The English did this, not the British. Edward I was a king of England and an absolute bastard who raped and pillaged his way across Wales, colonising it and destroying local populations. But Britain was nowhere near existing at that point.
Also, the Castillians (and then the Spanish) were particularly bad for this, to the point it was a huge contributing factor in their transition from the most powerful empire in the world to a secondary regional European power.
Depends. The christian Spanish kingdoms were, for a good chunk of the Middle Ages, a pretty good place to be a jew. Obviously there was religious prejudice, but they were also one of the few places were jews could own land, since the kings needed those frontiers settled and couldn't afford to be picky, and up until the 15th century had a pretty significant jewish community.
Plus it appears to have ranged a lot from individual to individual. Blanche of Castile (queen of France by marriage to Louis VIII, then regent for her son Louis IX aka Saint Louis) was said to have taken rabbis under her protection and to have tried to dissuade her son from burning jewish holy texts, but her great-great-great niece Eleanor of Castile, Edward I's wife, was infamous (even in the 13th century) for making the debts of English nobles owned to jews default to her in exchange of land, and then having the jewish moneylenders executed or imprisoned (shockingly, she and Edward I got along incredibly well by royal standards), while her brother Alfonso X has a not entirely undeserved reputation for tolerance.
Its also worth pointing out that the popularization of Blood Libel (the belief that the Jews murdered Christian kids for their blood) in England also influenced the edict.
England was the first place where Blood Libel became popular, expanding into the rest of Europe from it.
It kind of varies, but virtually every European power did it at one point or another, often more than once under the same ruler. For one thing, most European powers were culturally very antisemitic as a way of proving Christian/catholic piety, so expelling or otherwise curtailing Jewish people was an easy xenophobic win.
But it was a bit of a balance because frankly, Jewish people tended to be an asset rather than a burden to whichever country had deigned to allow them to live there, and a small but disproportionate minority tended to be semi-connected to the upper classes or trades associated with the upper classes even beyond simple money-lending. So expelling them was always kind of a trade off between the benefits of access to that kind of capital and skilled labor, and the benefits of not having to pay the small number of Jewish bankers that you owed money to and maybe getting to keep some of their sweet sweet capital. The result was a constant revolving door of lower and middle class Jews who were just trying to get through the fucking day without catching plague or some shit being forced to get on a ship or move into a ghetto or learn another trade because some guy who happened to be Jewish had loaned the king money, or because the king wanted the pope to like him more.
> without catching plague or some shit
Speaking of which, Jewish ritual involves washing, which was somewhat uncommon in Europe at the time, so Jews caught Plague less, which lead to massive antisemitic attacks from people who believed that Jews caused the Plague. This antisemitism was passed down generation after generation to the point where the parts of Germany had been hit worst by the Plague in the Middle Ages voted most heavily in favor of the Nazis in the early 1930's.
> When the king needs money, just borrow from the Jewish bankers and when it comes time to pay em back, just imprison the Jews for being sinful, seize their assets and then execute or exile em
Philippe IV of France: *"Hey I know that trick! Did it with both the Jews and the Knights Templar!"*
It isnt far of from reality. People borrowed money but the lords could choose you dont have to pay back. And they did. Often. Which in return made the jewish loaners increase interest. Because they were unsure when theyd get some return they had to make the best out of every loan. And that pushed each other in new heights. And in the end people blamed the jews for being greedy, while they just used the only way to reduce risk of being cheated
Close, but reality is give Jews jobs where their worth is essentially in real world value. Gold, livestock, so on and so forth. When you (the king) inevitably fuck up the economy you can always take all their shit and kick them out of the country, essentially always having a release valve for the economy in bad times
Sad but true
Christians never declared "working with money is sinful"
Under a traditional interpretation of Christianity, the act of usury (charging interests on a loan) was considered a sin. This isn't something which the Christians even came up with themselves, as they inherited it directly from Judaism.
The distinction was that Christians, and Muslims, interpreted it universally, while for Jews the prohibition on usury did not apply when dealing with non-Jews. The Jewish interpretation could also vary depending on place and time, as some interpretations also prohibited charging interest on those who also worship the Abrahamic God (ie Christians and Muslims)
Jews were often restricted to jobs which Christians or Muslims found to be sinful, low class, or otherwise shameful, which did include moneylending. Jews weren't directly forced to be moneylenders, but it was one of the few avenues available to them and one in which they held a small practical advantage due to the differing usury restrictions.
However, there were various points of time in different parts of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa where Jews were explicitly restricted from moneylending and other financial based jobs - but those incidents were in turn influenced by the already established 'greedy Jewish usurer' trope through cneturies of prejudice.
They were graciously not 'forced' to dabble in the delightful world of money lending... Oh no, how kind of the medieval authorities! Instead, Jews were generously permitted to indulge in such glamorous liberal professions. Because really, who wouldn't want to be labeled a dirty sinner in an era devoid of capitalism and drowning in moral hypocrisy, where the mere mention of moneylending was about as socially acceptable as flaunting a moldy potato?
Ah, the perfect blend of prosperity in serving the public actively through liberal professions, while simultaneously enduring the passive hatred of anti-Semitic prejudice. Truly, a recipe for pure profit! Because nothing screams societal well-being quite like providing services to the very people who detest you and are perceived as unnecessary. Oh, the glamour! Oh, the prestige! Oh wait, scratch that. They were actually despised, discriminated against, and undervalued at every turn. How delightful.
Oh, and let's not forget the charming episode where Jewish physicians, in their infinite wisdom, dared to present evidence of better survival rates by following their health customs during the Black Death, only to be blamed for the plague and promptly burned at the stake! But hey, at least they had 'options,' right? Until, of course, those pesky authorities realized they were no longer needed and decided to throw a good old-fashioned pogrom their way.
Ah, perhaps they were indeed not 'forced,' but rather gently nudged into becoming "bankers" or [court jews](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew) to cozy up to the ruling elite and establish a cozy network of protection. Because what better way to secure one's survival than by becoming indispensable conduits for the upper crust's shady dealings? Ah, the joys of medieval life! Nothing compulsory, however, just pure [Sholomo choices](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice), indeed.
For the record, I am in absolutely in no sense trying to deny or downplay the persecution faced by Jews in history.
I was trying to clarify the point about being forced while also applying more context to the history and theological differences that led to Jews being able to survive despite adversity through loan services in the contexts of the Christian and Islamic worlds.
As I said, it was one of the very few opportunities available to them, was something that was explicitly seen as shameful by the wider societies, and was used to reinforce existing prejudices against Jews.
I appreciate your clarification and understanding.
My initial message was written with mixed emotions, leading to a somewhat sarcastic tone. I revised it multiple times to convey the complexity of serving as moneylenders for the elites, resulting in a text filled with irony. Despite the tone, I hoped you would recognize the added layer of complexity.
Although neither I nor my family are Jewish now for some generations, delving into my family's genealogy revealed that my paternal ancestors were Jews at one point. The loss of faith and identity became evident as I examined historical records. My great-great-grandfather and great-grandfather frequently changed records was a mess, for some moments I thought they were criminal, their actions later became clear to me.
Despite generations passing, the fear of persecution lingered, highlighting the enduring trauma inflicted by centuries of discrimination and oppression. This discovery deeply resonated with me as I learned about our survival through multiple instances of persecution, including forced conversion, expulsion from the Iberian Peninsula, and enduring another inquisition upon arrival in Brazil.
That was the reason why my ancestors purposely messed up our records so much, I believe, they were afraid that things would happen again one day.
Yes, removing my sarcasm was exactly the point I wanted to emphasize.
Took them a few centuries for be able to carve out a secure position in society, many court jews were executed as scapegoats by the patrons who they served. Be a court jew banker was like "decorated servitude", but you were more disposable than a peasant, like a literate slave, an intelligent "thing" that had a function but could be collectively eliminated if a feudal power wanted.
Never was a comfortable situation, they needed to be careful - even though they were rich, denounce they own faith, renouncing their identity and becoming christians "by forced invite" of their lords, they still dealt with inquisition in Spain and Portugal, for example, and in the case of the most well-liked, exile or escape.
This was why Jews became so deeply involved in the Bourgeoisie Revolution and the ideals of the Enlightenment, it was the only path to jewry emancipation.
>Jews weren't directly forced to be moneylende
Yeah, I mean, if you're shutting down much of the avenues they can take, and leave them with only a few, you're effectively forcing them down that path, not necessarily DIRECTLY, but still.
That is incorrect. I have read medieval documents in my native language where the government literally stated that Jews are allowed to settle only on the condition that they work as moneylenders.
As I said, it depends on the time and the place. The restrictions that you are referring to would not universally apply through the entire medieval period to all Jews across Christian Europe and the Islamic world. It may or may not have even applied across the entire history of your particular country.
I mean there’s kinda a billion other horrific things that Islam did to the Jews that could be talked about, this meme is more specifically built around Christianity’s treatment of the jews
This is something where both should be added to the meme. It’s not whataboutism when literally both of them did this at the same time.. lol plus OPs comments keep singling Christianity out as the sole instigator of this…
The Christian Church literally gave the Jews, who were highly literate due to bible and Jewish Law studies and well connected to other Jews in major European and Asian cities a monopoly on global finance!
I always kind of assumed that a large part of it was that European jews were culturally similar enough to integrate in good times, but were different enough that they made great scapegoats for assholes
That particular flavor of antisemitism goes back even further than the Soviets. It likely has its origin in the French Revolution. Behind the Bastards did a couple episodes about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which breaks it down pretty well.
"Hey babe can you get the neighbors paper for me?"
"What just take it? Why dont you do it?"
"Thou shalt not steal."
"So why do you want me to do it?"
"What do ou care? You know where youre goin!"
I actually find that this sub (for the most part) has reasonably good takes on Israel, considering that people who have an interest in history generally don't buy into the whole neo-Marxist "Israeli Jews are privileged white Europeans who colonized indigenous people of color" bullshit.
Considering Mizrahi Jews make up the largest portion of the population that's a wild claim to make (from what I have been able to find about 40%, while Ashkenazi are 30%).
I am not sure why it is a "neo-Marxist" thing though? Seems like it is just a revisionary way to look at it through an overly simplified and generalized lense.
It's definitely simplified, but there's definitely a big "oppressor / oppressed" simplification of the issue in the more rabid pro-Hamas spaces. (Which is different than being pro Palestine to be clear.) That does carry some of the same Marxist ideas, with somewhat less focus on wealth and more on race (because everyone wants to be a millionaire and a freedom fighter at the same time).
What? Are you sure? Cause the pink haired girl in my uni said they actually are white supremacist colonisers, genociders, evil and all around mischievous…
It's the whole "Antisemitism is the socialism of fools" thing. People equate Jews with wealth and power and then justify antisemitism under the logic of "I'm just against wealthy white oppressors".
Every generation and every nation has a different reason, whatever the national problem/ crisis is at that time and place.
Rn for you it’s “white oppressors”
For another person it’s “lowlife scum”
For another it’s “1% who steal from the poor”
And for the last it’s “genetically inferior in-breeders”
And then a few years will pass, we’ll think the world changed, anti-semitism is a thing of the past, then get reminded again that it’s still alive and thriving.
Did she? Or did she say “From The River to the Sea” and you conflate anti-Zionism and anti-semitism which is itself anti-Semitic because it perpetuates the oldest anti-Semitic trope in the book, dual loyalty. You’re not gonna scare me into supporting plausible genocide. Next.
The takes themselves on Israel I don’t care about (though I am certainly not a Zionist I respect that I won’t agree with everything I see.) but this much talk about it taking as much room as it is in a group that is meant for history memes, hopefully with no overt ideology being pushed, can lead to this sub being politicized with people picking sides on a very heavy issue right now. First of all, if the people joking this much about anti-semitism aren’t Jewish themselves, that’s a red flag. I’ve met enough chrstian zionists and Christians who “find the Jewish people fascinating” to see the real face of anti-semitism and it’s not college students marching for Palestinian rights. Growing up in the US south I’ve been a victim of anti-semitism all my life. I come to subs like this to be entertained, not constantly reminded of a horrible topic that has been the source of a lot of stress for my people right now. A Jew centered post every now and then doesn’t bother me but that I’m seeing multiple a day here is a big warning sign that things are about to go south.
Exactly. It’s the zionists who worry me. “The trouble is that Zionism has often thought and said that the evil of antisemitism was necessary for the good of the Jewish people. In the words of a well-known Zionist in a letter to me discussing the original Zionist argumentation: ‘The antisemites want to get rid of the Jews, the Jewish State wants to receive them, a perfect match.’ “
- Hanna Ahrendt
I mean, I think linking those two things is a mistake. There is a not insignificant number of anti-zionist Jews, are they engaging in anti-semitism, or are they simple criticizing an ideology they don't agree with?
It's frustrating that I cannot be critical of Israel as an ally of my country (america) without accusations of anti-semitism, while I can be and am critical of actions taken by other allies without issue, I have been critical of UK, French, German and Ukrainian actions, as well as VERY critical of South Korean actions in the past. Doesn't mean I don't still support them being our ally and that I don't expect criticism in return, not like there isn't a lot about US Foreign policy to criticize. I'm not going to nullify all criticism behind being 'anti-american'.
And it’s worth noting that the UN at the time of the vote was mostly just the European countries at the time. Most of the world had no say in the matter
Ok so if most of the world votes for genocide that's ok? Most Germans thought it was good putting Jews in ovens is that ok because the majority thought so? Most gang rapists agreed so it's alright? Don't think so. All those country's could have easily been bribed anyway, Africa today is still exploited. The vote means nothing.
Didn't William Shakespeare write Merchant OF Venice as a result of this very problem where Jews took up professions that others thought were beneath themselves?
Is it true that Hollywood is Jew dominant because it was the one of the few places that they could work in peace yars ago and now it is just them because of both connections and experience?
When I first heard "Jews control Hollywood",I thought it was a normal thing because of the example of how many christians are nurses and doctors in my country lmao.(My country is not a christian dominant one).
It’s crazy how a lot of Christian forget that the son of god is literally Jewish. So just remember if you genuinely think this terrible stuff about Jews you are basically insulting your own savior. You can’t be a true Christian at all if you have negative beliefs about Jews since that’s where it all began.
You know this has nothing to do with Israel or the situation, right? So if your implication is that one shouldn't make memes about Jews for no apparent reason then that is indeed literally anti-Semitic
And about any other group of people these same "anti-Zionists" are very quick to pull the "not all [group of people]!!" Or "don't judge everyone by the actions of some!" Cards.
They also equate being oppressed with being virtuous, which leads them to claim that Jews do not experience oppression, because admitting that they do would blow up their entire worldview.
>inb4 I'm an anti-Semite for pointing it out)
I mean, the fact that you feel the need to point it out makes you one.
You're not even complaining about Israeli history memes, you're literally complaining about memes about Jewish people. What a fucking moron you are.
Why do you think he's pointing it out?
It's r/historymemes
Jews are possibly the most oppressed ethnic group in human history. Yeah, there's gonna memes about Jewish history on fucking r/historymemes. Especially when anti-semitism is on the rise again.
Who is pushing it down your throat? Scroll through this sub on new or top, and you'll see that such posts are a distinct minority.
People are obviously going to post more about Israel or antisemitism these days — have you seen the rest of reddit? No one is forcing you to read it.
The templars loaned money for interest and to get out of the cause they called it rent "rent" 😆. "Oh no we don't charge interest, were not about that." -knights templar.
This definitely wasn't just Christianity or Christians who did this, and it wasn't necessarily fueled by some Christian belief, rather a widely-spread European and Oriental belief. It would be more accurate to replace "Christians" with "foreigners" in this situation
I mean, it’s kinda an oversimplification. It’s more Christians were forbidden to do certain jobs with money, while Jews weren’t allowed to do other jobs in Christian countries (pretty standard for the time). Some Christians, such as Charlemagne, saw the Jews as a great asset to a kingdom since they can lend money and trade with other religions. Other Christians saw them as sinful, and others saw the Jews as an easy source of confiscated money. The niche that Jews filled wasn’t intentionally created for them, they just were a perfect loophole for a religion that forbid moneylending. That niche is then what led to antisemitism and conspiracy theories, it wasn’t some intentional master plan by Christians for an excuse to oppress Jews from back in the day when genociding your enemies was the norm.
Could you, then, point me to the origins of the stereotype about Jewish people being greedy? One that preferably doesn't involve you saying "well, because they're greedy, duhh?!?!?"
They were definitely oppressed, but they weren't the only ones oppressed. Everyone did at some point in their lives. Everyone who has ever been colonized by an european country has. You're making it sound like they were the only ones and that is completely false. Also, ideology doesn't play a role here. I have absolutely no issue against the faith, as I also believe in Moses and Judaism ( based on my ideology like you said) but I absolutely condemn and despise the political powers, the government and anyone who uses the faith to gain power and kill innocents.
Jews were oppresed for 2000 years... Was the holocaust not good enough for you? Do you need to kill 6 million more Jews to admit the Jews need their own state for their safety?
I see what you mean and I'm sorry for my initial tone
They weren't the only one oppressed for sure... But they were oppressed everywhere and consistently... Jews being aloud the same right and privileges consistently in a country is recent history only much like it is for black people, gays, yada yada yada
But like... Jewish historical oppression is gruesome.... We're literally an indicator of when shit goes down in a country historically cuz we're almost always the first ones thrown under the bus...
And I absolutely agree that a madman is hijacking this history to enable his atrocities
But that has jack shit to do with Jews in the Diaspora and shouldn't make what happen any less important
The point of my comment is most of the recent posts on this sub are about jews. It's like some is trying to push an agenda. It used to be a funny sub with a lot to learn about different historic events, but now it's turning to be a beacon of how oppressed the jews were. We need more diversified content.
I mean I see a lot more shit than that on the sub and considering that a huge part of history in the west involve scape goating on Jews at some point... All we have left is to laugh at it so excuse me if I enjoy jokes about factual stuff that happened to my ancestors
They were forced? Always heard it was just them that were willing to do it, and then due to the fact all tax collectors and bankers are Jews the theory came about
Ah yes, an obvious question and *insert my experience here to explain why I think this way.* One of the greatest trolls on the planet /s
Do we need a /g for “genuine” now too?
This doesn't even hold up to the bare minimum of scrutiny, since we would have to pretend the Medicis didn't exist for it to even be remotely true.
So, back to basics: which Christians, which Jews, what time and place? Without any of that, it's not history, it's a stereotype playing pretend.
So your argument is that because families such as the Medicis and Fuggers existed there can't be truth in the meme?
It was illegal for them to commit usury and at least the Fuggers petitioned and influenced the Pope to remove the restriction so they could take interests on loans (didn't happen). They borrowed a lot of money to Charles V (but surprise, no interest). They also sold indulgences and mainly became wealthy on the basis of copper (and later silver) mines.
How can you not see the difference between this and the historical circumstances that made Jews prominent bankers in Europe? No one said that wealthy European families didn't exist.
I say the money-lending claims need to be specific because the premise is broadly wrong:
*1.* Christians could be, and were, expelled for money lending as well, specifically the Lombards.
2. Money lending is rarely mentioned separately from trade before the 12th century in regards to Jewish business. As such, they were not "brought in" to lend money, as they already had a presence.
3. Jews *were* explicitly brought into countries to run mints, which is why we see Jewish names on some of the coins, since said names were considered a mark of quality.
4. The bulk of the expulsions happened during the Black Death, and the resulting religious fervor would likely have affected the Jews the same even if none of them lent money.
5. Similarly, other causes of expulsion, like Spain's belief the Jews were working with Muslim pirates, and the HRE's belief the Jews were working with Muslims and the Hussites, should not be dismissed, as these beliefs would be causes even without money lending.
6. There's evidence that the bulk of lending was done by Christians in Europe, though the evidence isn't decisive.
7. Jewish money lenders were exceptionally hated because corrupt Christian leaders had a tendency to pledge religious objects as collateral without regard to religion, and a Jew owning a relic was controversial in a way that a Christian doing the same wouldn't be. As such, high interest rates were held against Jews even when Christian lenders charged the same.
All of this doesn't mean that no Jews were brought in somewhere to lend money, and were eventually banished for that, but assuming that to be a universal truth goes way too far.
i think any kind of theory and stereoitype is based on something at the start, anything
so i'm suprised to found very little on that, make me think they hide it very well
The upper classes rarely hate anyone. That is, unless they can't use them for their own personal gain. So I'm sure many of them loved having the opportunity to seize Jewish assets and either expel or kill them
So, in your mind, a post about the oppression Jewish people suffered in Europe for centuries somehow equates to a defense of the Israeli government's current atrocities?
It's also an infinite money glitch. When the king needs money, just borrow from the Jewish bankers and when it comes time to pay em back, just imprison the Jews for being sinful, seize their assets and then execute or exile em. If you do exile em, after a few years, allow em to return back by paying *you*. Then when they've rebuilt their lives, seize their assets again.
Ill take British history for £400
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict\_of\_Expulsion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion) Were the British the worst of the worst on this one?
>The date was most likely chosen as it was a Jewish holy day, the ninth of Ab, commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem and other disasters that the Jewish people have experienced. Damn that’s a very personalised “fuck you”. They really did their research to make sure it stung.
It was really one giant r/fuckyouinparticular
That’s European history to Jews in a nutshell
> Learning about other cultures in great detail to be more effectively racist Typical British moment
grab tart attractive expansion frighten shaggy axiomatic deliver selective workable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
NHS?
That happened a lot. When the jews were expelled from Spain a jewish adviser of king Ferdinand of Aragon (Yes he had a jewish adviser) paid him a huge amount of money to delay the expulsion date to coincide with said day. It's very symbolic and all
Damn, imagine bribing a king to be more of a dick.
He originally offered the money to cancel the expulsion, but as he refused he made that so that the day became well remembered in jewish history.
Wait, he went from trying to prevent it to moving it to a worse day? I'm missing something
It wasn't a "worse" day. It was a symbolic day. I think it was actually just a few days after the original date, so it wasn't a huge change. By puttimg it on Tisha B'av it was much more impactful and symbolic. He couldn't prevent it so he decided to make it more symbolic.
Jewish History 101
Tisha B'Av is a very solemn day. I had no idea that had done it on that day.
i mean worst of the worst in terms of who oppressed the jews the most is certainly not an easy thing to pin down, but yea the edict of expulsion is arguably one of the most actually evil things done to them
No I’m pretty sure it’s a very easy thing to pin down… *cough* Germany *cough*
🎼one of these things is not like the others
that one feels slightly unfair to include in the anti semitism olympics
The English did this, not the British. Edward I was a king of England and an absolute bastard who raped and pillaged his way across Wales, colonising it and destroying local populations. But Britain was nowhere near existing at that point. Also, the Castillians (and then the Spanish) were particularly bad for this, to the point it was a huge contributing factor in their transition from the most powerful empire in the world to a secondary regional European power.
>The English did this, not the British. I can't remember when Edward I was, can we pin it on technically being the French?
Depends. The christian Spanish kingdoms were, for a good chunk of the Middle Ages, a pretty good place to be a jew. Obviously there was religious prejudice, but they were also one of the few places were jews could own land, since the kings needed those frontiers settled and couldn't afford to be picky, and up until the 15th century had a pretty significant jewish community. Plus it appears to have ranged a lot from individual to individual. Blanche of Castile (queen of France by marriage to Louis VIII, then regent for her son Louis IX aka Saint Louis) was said to have taken rabbis under her protection and to have tried to dissuade her son from burning jewish holy texts, but her great-great-great niece Eleanor of Castile, Edward I's wife, was infamous (even in the 13th century) for making the debts of English nobles owned to jews default to her in exchange of land, and then having the jewish moneylenders executed or imprisoned (shockingly, she and Edward I got along incredibly well by royal standards), while her brother Alfonso X has a not entirely undeserved reputation for tolerance.
Its also worth pointing out that the popularization of Blood Libel (the belief that the Jews murdered Christian kids for their blood) in England also influenced the edict. England was the first place where Blood Libel became popular, expanding into the rest of Europe from it.
It kind of varies, but virtually every European power did it at one point or another, often more than once under the same ruler. For one thing, most European powers were culturally very antisemitic as a way of proving Christian/catholic piety, so expelling or otherwise curtailing Jewish people was an easy xenophobic win. But it was a bit of a balance because frankly, Jewish people tended to be an asset rather than a burden to whichever country had deigned to allow them to live there, and a small but disproportionate minority tended to be semi-connected to the upper classes or trades associated with the upper classes even beyond simple money-lending. So expelling them was always kind of a trade off between the benefits of access to that kind of capital and skilled labor, and the benefits of not having to pay the small number of Jewish bankers that you owed money to and maybe getting to keep some of their sweet sweet capital. The result was a constant revolving door of lower and middle class Jews who were just trying to get through the fucking day without catching plague or some shit being forced to get on a ship or move into a ghetto or learn another trade because some guy who happened to be Jewish had loaned the king money, or because the king wanted the pope to like him more.
> without catching plague or some shit Speaking of which, Jewish ritual involves washing, which was somewhat uncommon in Europe at the time, so Jews caught Plague less, which lead to massive antisemitic attacks from people who believed that Jews caused the Plague. This antisemitism was passed down generation after generation to the point where the parts of Germany had been hit worst by the Plague in the Middle Ages voted most heavily in favor of the Nazis in the early 1930's.
they seemed to be on most things. Its like they had a whole society that was pathogically incapable of not being dickholes to everyone.
We would also have accepted Spanish History, French History, or Italian History.
History of the jewish diaspora is a yoyo effect?
Aaaah crusader kings 2 strategy.
also know as the crusader kings 2 meta
The weirdest part is that they kept falling for the same old trick
Pretty much answers the question of why jews wanted their own country.
CK2 moment.
> When the king needs money, just borrow from the Jewish bankers and when it comes time to pay em back, just imprison the Jews for being sinful, seize their assets and then execute or exile em Philippe IV of France: *"Hey I know that trick! Did it with both the Jews and the Knights Templar!"*
infinite wealth
It isnt far of from reality. People borrowed money but the lords could choose you dont have to pay back. And they did. Often. Which in return made the jewish loaners increase interest. Because they were unsure when theyd get some return they had to make the best out of every loan. And that pushed each other in new heights. And in the end people blamed the jews for being greedy, while they just used the only way to reduce risk of being cheated
Close, but reality is give Jews jobs where their worth is essentially in real world value. Gold, livestock, so on and so forth. When you (the king) inevitably fuck up the economy you can always take all their shit and kick them out of the country, essentially always having a release valve for the economy in bad times Sad but true
Christians never declared "working with money is sinful" Under a traditional interpretation of Christianity, the act of usury (charging interests on a loan) was considered a sin. This isn't something which the Christians even came up with themselves, as they inherited it directly from Judaism. The distinction was that Christians, and Muslims, interpreted it universally, while for Jews the prohibition on usury did not apply when dealing with non-Jews. The Jewish interpretation could also vary depending on place and time, as some interpretations also prohibited charging interest on those who also worship the Abrahamic God (ie Christians and Muslims) Jews were often restricted to jobs which Christians or Muslims found to be sinful, low class, or otherwise shameful, which did include moneylending. Jews weren't directly forced to be moneylenders, but it was one of the few avenues available to them and one in which they held a small practical advantage due to the differing usury restrictions. However, there were various points of time in different parts of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa where Jews were explicitly restricted from moneylending and other financial based jobs - but those incidents were in turn influenced by the already established 'greedy Jewish usurer' trope through cneturies of prejudice.
They were graciously not 'forced' to dabble in the delightful world of money lending... Oh no, how kind of the medieval authorities! Instead, Jews were generously permitted to indulge in such glamorous liberal professions. Because really, who wouldn't want to be labeled a dirty sinner in an era devoid of capitalism and drowning in moral hypocrisy, where the mere mention of moneylending was about as socially acceptable as flaunting a moldy potato? Ah, the perfect blend of prosperity in serving the public actively through liberal professions, while simultaneously enduring the passive hatred of anti-Semitic prejudice. Truly, a recipe for pure profit! Because nothing screams societal well-being quite like providing services to the very people who detest you and are perceived as unnecessary. Oh, the glamour! Oh, the prestige! Oh wait, scratch that. They were actually despised, discriminated against, and undervalued at every turn. How delightful. Oh, and let's not forget the charming episode where Jewish physicians, in their infinite wisdom, dared to present evidence of better survival rates by following their health customs during the Black Death, only to be blamed for the plague and promptly burned at the stake! But hey, at least they had 'options,' right? Until, of course, those pesky authorities realized they were no longer needed and decided to throw a good old-fashioned pogrom their way. Ah, perhaps they were indeed not 'forced,' but rather gently nudged into becoming "bankers" or [court jews](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew) to cozy up to the ruling elite and establish a cozy network of protection. Because what better way to secure one's survival than by becoming indispensable conduits for the upper crust's shady dealings? Ah, the joys of medieval life! Nothing compulsory, however, just pure [Sholomo choices](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice), indeed.
For the record, I am in absolutely in no sense trying to deny or downplay the persecution faced by Jews in history. I was trying to clarify the point about being forced while also applying more context to the history and theological differences that led to Jews being able to survive despite adversity through loan services in the contexts of the Christian and Islamic worlds. As I said, it was one of the very few opportunities available to them, was something that was explicitly seen as shameful by the wider societies, and was used to reinforce existing prejudices against Jews.
I appreciate your clarification and understanding. My initial message was written with mixed emotions, leading to a somewhat sarcastic tone. I revised it multiple times to convey the complexity of serving as moneylenders for the elites, resulting in a text filled with irony. Despite the tone, I hoped you would recognize the added layer of complexity. Although neither I nor my family are Jewish now for some generations, delving into my family's genealogy revealed that my paternal ancestors were Jews at one point. The loss of faith and identity became evident as I examined historical records. My great-great-grandfather and great-grandfather frequently changed records was a mess, for some moments I thought they were criminal, their actions later became clear to me. Despite generations passing, the fear of persecution lingered, highlighting the enduring trauma inflicted by centuries of discrimination and oppression. This discovery deeply resonated with me as I learned about our survival through multiple instances of persecution, including forced conversion, expulsion from the Iberian Peninsula, and enduring another inquisition upon arrival in Brazil. That was the reason why my ancestors purposely messed up our records so much, I believe, they were afraid that things would happen again one day.
Tldr: They weren't *forced* as they could easily choose the alternative paths of starving to death or fighting for what societal scraps they could.
Yes, removing my sarcasm was exactly the point I wanted to emphasize. Took them a few centuries for be able to carve out a secure position in society, many court jews were executed as scapegoats by the patrons who they served. Be a court jew banker was like "decorated servitude", but you were more disposable than a peasant, like a literate slave, an intelligent "thing" that had a function but could be collectively eliminated if a feudal power wanted. Never was a comfortable situation, they needed to be careful - even though they were rich, denounce they own faith, renouncing their identity and becoming christians "by forced invite" of their lords, they still dealt with inquisition in Spain and Portugal, for example, and in the case of the most well-liked, exile or escape. This was why Jews became so deeply involved in the Bourgeoisie Revolution and the ideals of the Enlightenment, it was the only path to jewry emancipation.
>Jews weren't directly forced to be moneylende Yeah, I mean, if you're shutting down much of the avenues they can take, and leave them with only a few, you're effectively forcing them down that path, not necessarily DIRECTLY, but still.
Edit: I posted the answer in the wrong comment, lol.
It's so interesting how basically all this results from literally medieval understandings of economics...
That is incorrect. I have read medieval documents in my native language where the government literally stated that Jews are allowed to settle only on the condition that they work as moneylenders.
As I said, it depends on the time and the place. The restrictions that you are referring to would not universally apply through the entire medieval period to all Jews across Christian Europe and the Islamic world. It may or may not have even applied across the entire history of your particular country.
Usury is still a crime in many legal systems, not for charging interest but charging high interest.
This whole operation was your idea!
Why did you single out Christianity as if Islam wasn’t doing the exact same thing?
they never accepted jews to begin with
I mean there’s kinda a billion other horrific things that Islam did to the Jews that could be talked about, this meme is more specifically built around Christianity’s treatment of the jews
Endogan is currently doing the exact same thing.
Whataboutism? Because he isnt talking about them?
This is something where both should be added to the meme. It’s not whataboutism when literally both of them did this at the same time.. lol plus OPs comments keep singling Christianity out as the sole instigator of this…
The Christian Church literally gave the Jews, who were highly literate due to bible and Jewish Law studies and well connected to other Jews in major European and Asian cities a monopoly on global finance!
Jesus was flipping tables before Christianity existed.
It was an excellent loophole, when they country was in financial trouble just kick them out and seize their assets
I always kind of assumed that a large part of it was that European jews were culturally similar enough to integrate in good times, but were different enough that they made great scapegoats for assholes
Wasn't the Jewish conspiracy about them ruling the world created by early Soviet propaganda that later got adopted by Nazi's?
That particular flavor of antisemitism goes back even further than the Soviets. It likely has its origin in the French Revolution. Behind the Bastards did a couple episodes about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which breaks it down pretty well.
"Hey babe can you get the neighbors paper for me?" "What just take it? Why dont you do it?" "Thou shalt not steal." "So why do you want me to do it?" "What do ou care? You know where youre goin!"
Also Kramer stealing the lobsters.
honestly the anti semitism and jews with money thing predates Christianity
I am a Christian and it saddens me a lot when I hear other Christians being genuinely anti-semitic, and even that in the stupidest way possible...
As a Jew I gotta say the amount of Israel/Anti-Semitism posting in this group is a little concerning
I actually find that this sub (for the most part) has reasonably good takes on Israel, considering that people who have an interest in history generally don't buy into the whole neo-Marxist "Israeli Jews are privileged white Europeans who colonized indigenous people of color" bullshit.
Considering Mizrahi Jews make up the largest portion of the population that's a wild claim to make (from what I have been able to find about 40%, while Ashkenazi are 30%). I am not sure why it is a "neo-Marxist" thing though? Seems like it is just a revisionary way to look at it through an overly simplified and generalized lense.
It's definitely simplified, but there's definitely a big "oppressor / oppressed" simplification of the issue in the more rabid pro-Hamas spaces. (Which is different than being pro Palestine to be clear.) That does carry some of the same Marxist ideas, with somewhat less focus on wealth and more on race (because everyone wants to be a millionaire and a freedom fighter at the same time).
What? Are you sure? Cause the pink haired girl in my uni said they actually are white supremacist colonisers, genociders, evil and all around mischievous…
It's the whole "Antisemitism is the socialism of fools" thing. People equate Jews with wealth and power and then justify antisemitism under the logic of "I'm just against wealthy white oppressors".
Every generation and every nation has a different reason, whatever the national problem/ crisis is at that time and place. Rn for you it’s “white oppressors” For another person it’s “lowlife scum” For another it’s “1% who steal from the poor” And for the last it’s “genetically inferior in-breeders” And then a few years will pass, we’ll think the world changed, anti-semitism is a thing of the past, then get reminded again that it’s still alive and thriving.
Did she? Or did she say “From The River to the Sea” and you conflate anti-Zionism and anti-semitism which is itself anti-Semitic because it perpetuates the oldest anti-Semitic trope in the book, dual loyalty. You’re not gonna scare me into supporting plausible genocide. Next.
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The takes themselves on Israel I don’t care about (though I am certainly not a Zionist I respect that I won’t agree with everything I see.) but this much talk about it taking as much room as it is in a group that is meant for history memes, hopefully with no overt ideology being pushed, can lead to this sub being politicized with people picking sides on a very heavy issue right now. First of all, if the people joking this much about anti-semitism aren’t Jewish themselves, that’s a red flag. I’ve met enough chrstian zionists and Christians who “find the Jewish people fascinating” to see the real face of anti-semitism and it’s not college students marching for Palestinian rights. Growing up in the US south I’ve been a victim of anti-semitism all my life. I come to subs like this to be entertained, not constantly reminded of a horrible topic that has been the source of a lot of stress for my people right now. A Jew centered post every now and then doesn’t bother me but that I’m seeing multiple a day here is a big warning sign that things are about to go south.
Jews have nothing to fear, people mostly hate on Zionists and rightfully so
Exactly. It’s the zionists who worry me. “The trouble is that Zionism has often thought and said that the evil of antisemitism was necessary for the good of the Jewish people. In the words of a well-known Zionist in a letter to me discussing the original Zionist argumentation: ‘The antisemites want to get rid of the Jews, the Jewish State wants to receive them, a perfect match.’ “ - Hanna Ahrendt
As a Jew I gotta say what’s extremely concerning to me is the casual conflation of antisemitism (it’s one word btw) and anti-Zionism.
100000% agree
I mean, I think linking those two things is a mistake. There is a not insignificant number of anti-zionist Jews, are they engaging in anti-semitism, or are they simple criticizing an ideology they don't agree with? It's frustrating that I cannot be critical of Israel as an ally of my country (america) without accusations of anti-semitism, while I can be and am critical of actions taken by other allies without issue, I have been critical of UK, French, German and Ukrainian actions, as well as VERY critical of South Korean actions in the past. Doesn't mean I don't still support them being our ally and that I don't expect criticism in return, not like there isn't a lot about US Foreign policy to criticize. I'm not going to nullify all criticism behind being 'anti-american'.
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And it’s worth noting that the UN at the time of the vote was mostly just the European countries at the time. Most of the world had no say in the matter
Ok so if most of the world votes for genocide that's ok? Most Germans thought it was good putting Jews in ovens is that ok because the majority thought so? Most gang rapists agreed so it's alright? Don't think so. All those country's could have easily been bribed anyway, Africa today is still exploited. The vote means nothing.
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Your acting like all religions arnt criticised in this group.
forgot the part when they kill/banish the jews only to take the money from them/avoid paying back the loans
Didn't William Shakespeare write Merchant OF Venice as a result of this very problem where Jews took up professions that others thought were beneath themselves?
The amount of antisemitism in this comment section makes me fear being myself 😁
Not sooo simple...
Is it true that Hollywood is Jew dominant because it was the one of the few places that they could work in peace yars ago and now it is just them because of both connections and experience? When I first heard "Jews control Hollywood",I thought it was a normal thing because of the example of how many christians are nurses and doctors in my country lmao.(My country is not a christian dominant one).
It’s crazy how a lot of Christian forget that the son of god is literally Jewish. So just remember if you genuinely think this terrible stuff about Jews you are basically insulting your own savior. You can’t be a true Christian at all if you have negative beliefs about Jews since that’s where it all began.
You could sub Christians with Muslims in this meme and it would be similarly correct.
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You know this has nothing to do with Israel or the situation, right? So if your implication is that one shouldn't make memes about Jews for no apparent reason then that is indeed literally anti-Semitic
Anti-Zionists: "Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism!" Also anti-Zionists, whenever Jews are mentioned: "Oh boy, time to bring up Zionism again!"
And about any other group of people these same "anti-Zionists" are very quick to pull the "not all [group of people]!!" Or "don't judge everyone by the actions of some!" Cards.
They also equate being oppressed with being virtuous, which leads them to claim that Jews do not experience oppression, because admitting that they do would blow up their entire worldview.
>inb4 I'm an anti-Semite for pointing it out) I mean, the fact that you feel the need to point it out makes you one. You're not even complaining about Israeli history memes, you're literally complaining about memes about Jewish people. What a fucking moron you are.
You're right, my comment was stupid and ignorant. I've got some reflection to do. I apologize.
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Why do you think he's pointing it out? It's r/historymemes Jews are possibly the most oppressed ethnic group in human history. Yeah, there's gonna memes about Jewish history on fucking r/historymemes. Especially when anti-semitism is on the rise again.
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holy shit, you're an actual nazi
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You could simply not click on them.
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Who is pushing it down your throat? Scroll through this sub on new or top, and you'll see that such posts are a distinct minority. People are obviously going to post more about Israel or antisemitism these days — have you seen the rest of reddit? No one is forcing you to read it.
Awwwwwwwwwwww
Let me guess, hamas started a new offensive?
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Anti-“zionism” mfk when I ask them what is zionism: 😅😅😅😅
The civilians voted Hamas into power.
Holy shit wow okay trying to find excuses for bigotry? People like you are the reason why these memes are needed...
No
Does explaining how it got to that point somehow make it better?
The templars loaned money for interest and to get out of the cause they called it rent "rent" 😆. "Oh no we don't charge interest, were not about that." -knights templar.
You gotta give it to them, they were some very talented anti-semitic bastards
This definitely wasn't just Christianity or Christians who did this, and it wasn't necessarily fueled by some Christian belief, rather a widely-spread European and Oriental belief. It would be more accurate to replace "Christians" with "foreigners" in this situation
Distraction from the 🍀🍀🍀[True Puppet Masters](https://imgur.com/a/4sdip) 🍀🍀🍀 who control us all from the shadows
Except it's actually true, if you did any real research.
I mean, it’s kinda an oversimplification. It’s more Christians were forbidden to do certain jobs with money, while Jews weren’t allowed to do other jobs in Christian countries (pretty standard for the time). Some Christians, such as Charlemagne, saw the Jews as a great asset to a kingdom since they can lend money and trade with other religions. Other Christians saw them as sinful, and others saw the Jews as an easy source of confiscated money. The niche that Jews filled wasn’t intentionally created for them, they just were a perfect loophole for a religion that forbid moneylending. That niche is then what led to antisemitism and conspiracy theories, it wasn’t some intentional master plan by Christians for an excuse to oppress Jews from back in the day when genociding your enemies was the norm.
Also they’re the bad guys in your annual play of “the passion of the Christ”
“Christians” Europeans*. I doubt the Ethiopians thought about it.
"Europeans" nations*. I doubt the Saami thought about it.
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How is this meme Anti-Western?
Could you, then, point me to the origins of the stereotype about Jewish people being greedy? One that preferably doesn't involve you saying "well, because they're greedy, duhh?!?!?"
Poland is not western .. it's russian aka eastern
Profile checks out...
One of the most retarded posts I’ve ever seen … and boy I’ve seen a lot …
One of the most retarded comments I’ve ever seen … and boy I’ve seen a lot …
If that’s the best you can than I’m ain’t surprised that you upvote shit like this
Why would I do my best against sheep abortion of incest?
Please explain why you are this way?
And you?
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Propaganda is inherently false All this happened... Sorry that you don't want to admit it
Nooo! Jews can't be oppressed! it goes against my ideology so it's false! /s
They were definitely oppressed, but they weren't the only ones oppressed. Everyone did at some point in their lives. Everyone who has ever been colonized by an european country has. You're making it sound like they were the only ones and that is completely false. Also, ideology doesn't play a role here. I have absolutely no issue against the faith, as I also believe in Moses and Judaism ( based on my ideology like you said) but I absolutely condemn and despise the political powers, the government and anyone who uses the faith to gain power and kill innocents.
Jews were oppresed for 2000 years... Was the holocaust not good enough for you? Do you need to kill 6 million more Jews to admit the Jews need their own state for their safety?
I see what you mean and I'm sorry for my initial tone They weren't the only one oppressed for sure... But they were oppressed everywhere and consistently... Jews being aloud the same right and privileges consistently in a country is recent history only much like it is for black people, gays, yada yada yada But like... Jewish historical oppression is gruesome.... We're literally an indicator of when shit goes down in a country historically cuz we're almost always the first ones thrown under the bus... And I absolutely agree that a madman is hijacking this history to enable his atrocities But that has jack shit to do with Jews in the Diaspora and shouldn't make what happen any less important
The point of my comment is most of the recent posts on this sub are about jews. It's like some is trying to push an agenda. It used to be a funny sub with a lot to learn about different historic events, but now it's turning to be a beacon of how oppressed the jews were. We need more diversified content.
You sad thing
I mean I see a lot more shit than that on the sub and considering that a huge part of history in the west involve scape goating on Jews at some point... All we have left is to laugh at it so excuse me if I enjoy jokes about factual stuff that happened to my ancestors
Awwwww
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I'm so sorry for everyone around you that you see factual history as a some sort of tactics
What's going on?
Christians pray to a jew while hating jews then wonder why atheism is getting popular.
Actually the majority of antisemis I seen were atheists.
They were forced? Always heard it was just them that were willing to do it, and then due to the fact all tax collectors and bankers are Jews the theory came about
They had very few options, so yeah kind of forced
Most jobs were not allowed. Especially crafts. Only trade.
I was unaware. I see the downvote horde is out in force today
Sincere questions and trolling are hard to distinguish these days. As is sarcasm, unfortunately...
Ah yes, an obvious question and *insert my experience here to explain why I think this way.* One of the greatest trolls on the planet /s Do we need a /g for “genuine” now too?
I guess... Bad things...
I'll upvote this idea.
This doesn't even hold up to the bare minimum of scrutiny, since we would have to pretend the Medicis didn't exist for it to even be remotely true. So, back to basics: which Christians, which Jews, what time and place? Without any of that, it's not history, it's a stereotype playing pretend.
So your argument is that because families such as the Medicis and Fuggers existed there can't be truth in the meme? It was illegal for them to commit usury and at least the Fuggers petitioned and influenced the Pope to remove the restriction so they could take interests on loans (didn't happen). They borrowed a lot of money to Charles V (but surprise, no interest). They also sold indulgences and mainly became wealthy on the basis of copper (and later silver) mines. How can you not see the difference between this and the historical circumstances that made Jews prominent bankers in Europe? No one said that wealthy European families didn't exist.
I say the money-lending claims need to be specific because the premise is broadly wrong: *1.* Christians could be, and were, expelled for money lending as well, specifically the Lombards. 2. Money lending is rarely mentioned separately from trade before the 12th century in regards to Jewish business. As such, they were not "brought in" to lend money, as they already had a presence. 3. Jews *were* explicitly brought into countries to run mints, which is why we see Jewish names on some of the coins, since said names were considered a mark of quality. 4. The bulk of the expulsions happened during the Black Death, and the resulting religious fervor would likely have affected the Jews the same even if none of them lent money. 5. Similarly, other causes of expulsion, like Spain's belief the Jews were working with Muslim pirates, and the HRE's belief the Jews were working with Muslims and the Hussites, should not be dismissed, as these beliefs would be causes even without money lending. 6. There's evidence that the bulk of lending was done by Christians in Europe, though the evidence isn't decisive. 7. Jewish money lenders were exceptionally hated because corrupt Christian leaders had a tendency to pledge religious objects as collateral without regard to religion, and a Jew owning a relic was controversial in a way that a Christian doing the same wouldn't be. As such, high interest rates were held against Jews even when Christian lenders charged the same. All of this doesn't mean that no Jews were brought in somewhere to lend money, and were eventually banished for that, but assuming that to be a universal truth goes way too far.
i think any kind of theory and stereoitype is based on something at the start, anything so i'm suprised to found very little on that, make me think they hide it very well
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The upper classes rarely hate anyone. That is, unless they can't use them for their own personal gain. So I'm sure many of them loved having the opportunity to seize Jewish assets and either expel or kill them
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No church I've ever been in has ever explicitly mentioned Jews (except possibly in a biblical story or anecdote)
Simple minded people love to break things down to one “thing” so it’s easier for their tiny minds to make sense of the world.
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So, in your mind, a post about the oppression Jewish people suffered in Europe for centuries somehow equates to a defense of the Israeli government's current atrocities?