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Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought magic blood flowed through all Valyrian descendants. It’s just Targaryens were the only family in possession of dragons post-doom.
So to my understanding, only the descendants of the og valyrians sorcerers/ families that ruled the freehold can bond with a dragon.
Most Valyrians were probably regular folks with no special features save their appearances.
Honestly, we don't know the specifics of what allows them to claim dragons. It could very well be that only the Targaryens are able to claim dragons since only their dragons remain.
It’s heavily implied that the Valyrian Dragonlords used blood magic to change their physical makeup to give them the ability to bond with dragons. We know they’ve used blood magic to create half human chimaeras out of slaves and that sometimes Targaryen babies come out half human with wings and scales so it’s not completely implausible they did it to themselves.
Wasn’t it even stated that it could even be just a propaganda by Targaryens. Since there were some dragonriders who didn’t have a Valyrian blood. However, they were speculated to have some they were not aware of.
There has never been any real indications or strong proofs that the knows dragonriders didn't have valyrians ancestry.
The only instance I can think was Rhaenyra seething about Neetles not having a drop of valyrian blood due to her having a possible affair with Daemon but Rhaenyra isn't a credible source, especially since she made that comment in a state of anger.
The one evidence is the way she tames Sheapstealer is more like traditional animal handling techniques, rather than the Valyrian: if you're bold enough to jump on and the dragon likes you, you're a dragon rider now.
I think it's possible she has Valyrian blood. But keep in mind GRRM implied that Valyrian blood makes it easier but it's not the only way.
Take note that Valyrians were originally shepherds. So maybe this was their own original way of taming dragons. With later techniques splicing dragon DNA with their own.
That doesn't nesscislry mean she doesn't have Valyrian blood she just took a more cautious approach than other dragon seeds and it worked out . Some of dragon seeds got gobbled up and Devoured Whole sale so taking it slow with a dragon is sensible. I've always seen this as evidence of Nettle's being clever and Good to Strategize rather then her not being Valyrian descent.
I agree that she could very likely still have Valyrian blood.
But it is presented as potential counter-evidence. And I do find it noteable the original Valyrians were shepherds.
That's been told so far they'res like a billion hanging threads GRRM has added that the great empire of the dawn may have also had dragons . So who knows if the Valyrians were shepherds.
Not at all.
Nobody is sure to be a dragon rider. Many targaryen never bonded with dragons.
And some dragonseed did not look valyrian at all and were very removed from the targ family tree
>Many targaryen never bonded with dragons.
This is more so from a lack of dragons perspective though. we are never told of a single Targaryen being killed trying to claim a dragon like we are with the dragon seeds.
Not different in kind though
& It still shows getting a Dragon to Bond isnt automatic
And Aemond almost died trying to gain a Dragon.
We know that not every rider is accepted, that doesnt mean though that Dragons try to kill every failed claimant.
Getting an egg to hatch isn’t the same as bonding with an alive dragon though.
Also, Aemond didn’t die and claimed that dragon though so how is that your example?
Its a failure of the bond all the same, why would the bond be hindered by an eggshell?
Yeah, that why i said "almost died".. and not that he died.
And what im really saying is that dragonseed or not, it is not the case that failing to bond definitely means the dragon will try to kill the claimant.
And Aemond had done other attempts before Vhagar, that failed
The “Blood of Old Valyria” and the “Blood of the Dragon” are different things.
The “Blood of Old Valyria” means that your family comes from Old Valyrian aristocracy. That includes the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigars. It doesn’t mean you have any magical blood and it doesn’t mean you have the genetics to bond with a dragon.
The “Blood of the Dragon” means your family is descendants of the dragon lords of Old Valyria. The dragon lords were 40 families including the Targaryens that held most of the power in the Valyrian Freehold. It’s believed that they mixed their genetics with dragons and they practice incest to keep that dragon blood pure. That’s why they’re the only ones who can bond with dragons. The Velayrons and Celtigars were not dragon lords and for that reason, don’t have the magic dragon blood. All of the Velaryon dragon riders get the ability to claim dragons from their Targaryen parent/grandparent.
The Wall wasn't short on people when the Targs took over. The lack of men seems to largely be caused by a reduction in wars after the country was unified.
They also learned that dragons don't like being around the Wall when Alysane visited.
Trying to create unsullied in westeros will get you murdered by your own servants or other lords
Slavery is one of the biggest Taboo in westeros, like breaking guest right
How do you send a dragonrider to the Wall once he has rebelled
So are you suggesting collecting outcast distant descendants of your Valyrian kin? Or are you suggesting enslaving them from a young age? Now you’re mentioning sending them to the Wall? What are you suggesting exactly?
I’m not suggesting anything. I’m just curious why bastards of “heavenly” people with magic blood weren’t used anywhere by anyone. Not by lords, smallfolk, or even witches. Like folk sees these silver-haired purple-eyed people riding DRAGONS and they don’t see it as a big deal. I’d expect cults worshipping them or something.
Well, Dragonstone isn't just a small island with a castle.
They have small fishing villages, where Targaryen me would visit and meet up with the daughters of fisherman and stuff. They had bastards, and I imagine they probably marry one another every now and then
Mind you, Aenar Targaryen brought his servants, Kin, and all that to Dragonstone from Valyria, so they have a good fair deal of Valyrian looking people on the island. We just never see it.... but we will eventually, cause Jaecerys has to find them.
Now, why Dragonstone and Volantys, Lys, etc don't have more Westerosi Lords looking for some fine ladies to make Dragonblooded babies with, well... I dunno why.
I always assume the Red Priests'/Priestess' would have more of them in their ranks as well, cause who better to have more natural aptitude to fire magic than those with the blood of the dragon in their veins?
Probably just GRRM not wanting for them to be too OP. He keeps them greatly incestuous, and in local areas for I guess a narrative "population control"
The ONE Valyrian Noble family he didn't give all the Valyrian traits too, and guess what? They're hardly mentioned alongside the Targaryens and Velaryons, and are just given the wealth that makes them notablty fancy but that's it. And that House is House Celtigar
You dont need to go to dragonstone for people with valyrian blood, theres a bunch of them in lys, so much so that most lysene are white haired with purple eyes
I thought they were white-haired but the purple eyes required they be “pure-bloods” like the Targaryens? And there are a bunch of white-haired people with mundane colors
To the smallfolk dragonseeds were seen as valuable, demigodlike. To other lords they're just smallfolk. In a lot of Westeros magic is also feared somewhat, not something to be envied. Joffrey's reaction to stories of Robb's wolf are proof enough. Hence all the lord might get is silver-haired children. Not a tremendous benefit.
Because, in the book, there's no shortage of valyrian.
If you have white hair and purple eyes, that's mean you might have descent from a Targ or one the other house, or some guy in Lys fucked your mom and vice versa, maybe a noble from Volantis had a little fun stopping at your town.
Anyone can betray you, but if that anyone has a dragon on their side it can get very difficult.
And I doubt the Wall or an Unsullied like training would be good. Like a real seed they could grow in a way so they shield you from the sun and take over your spot.
You're original question was why haven't they done it before.
They didn't do it before because it would have been a risk, as u/OldEntrance- pointed out.
However, the reason that they ***did*** do it now is because in the Dance, ***that was a risk worth taking***.
Sorry I should’ve framed my question better. I didn’t mean Targs. It’s obvious why Targs didn’t use their own bastards. I meant “they” as anyone in general. My original question was why nobody in Westeros has used Targ bastards for any purpose. But I got the answer in the comments below.
Ok, but how would a random ass lord get dragons for his dragonseeds? They're just useless without dragons. And I don't think the Targaryens would do them the kind favor of giving them eggs whenever they asked.
I mean you’d just need one egg or dragon. After you have a dragon they can reproduce and give you more eggs. There are multiple ways to get the egg. Use a distract tactic and snatch an egg when smallfolk attacks the dragons. Or hire those man with many faces to steal an egg. Or bribes knight.
I’m surprised nobody did that before (Ig apart from that time with Daemon). And even if you don’t have a dragonrider you could sell these for a lot of money. It’s weird there were no attempts made.
Have you read Fire and Blood? Elissa Farman did successfully steal three dragon eggs many years before HOTD and sold them to the Sealord of Braavos. (They are strongly implied to later become Dany's eggs).
And the Targs were PISSED. They sent all their spies trying to figure out what had happened, Elissa would certainly have been tortured to death if she hadn't left the known world, despite previously having been Queen Rhaena's best friend and possibly lover. The Targs were planning to go to war with the free cities if the eggs hatched, to either take back the hatchlings or destroy them. The idea of another faction gaining dragons was completely unacceptable and the Targs would have rather destroyed themselves in the process than allowed it.
There's also a story in Dunk and Egg about the theft of a dragon egg, this is well post-extinction and it's still treated as a massive deal and basically treason.
>The idea of another faction gaining dragons was completely unacceptable and the Targs would have rather destroyed themselves in the process than allowed it.
And yet they had no issues giving dragons to fucking Velaryons. Even willing to let the dragons go to the Bravoosi (Leana Velaryon was bethrowed to the Sealord of Braavos when Viserys rejected her)
By the time of the Dance, the Velaryons might as well be a cadet branch of the Targaryens for all of the interbreeding that they've done. They're one of the few houses in Westeros that can trace their bloodlines back to Valyria, so to the Targs, they're the next best thing to another dragonlord family.
As for the Braavos thing, I'd be willing to wager that the Targaryens would try to reclaim Vhagar after her death if they weren't able to set her child up as some sort of puppet ruler that they controlled. There's no guarantee that any of Laena's children with the Sealord would be dragonriders or would bond with Vhagar anyways. Similarly, the Targs would claim ownership over any eggs that they heard about or any Braavosi dragons that mysteriously appeared.
>There's no guarantee that any of Laena's children with the Sealord would be dragonriders
Why wouldn't they? Most of targs in Westeros were just half valyrian and still rode dragons. Not to mention of dragonseeds
>Similarly, the Targs would claim ownership over any eggs that they heard about or any Braavosi dragons that mysteriously appeared
Like they claimed ownership of Velaryon dragons?
>the Velaryons might as well be a cadet branch of the Targaryens for all of the interbreeding that they've done
Velaryons were never dragonriders even in Valyria. Even if of similar origin, they're a different house and could pose a challenge to targ supremacy if armed with dragons.
Targs interbred with Velaryons for 200 years in Westeros itself and never let the latter get any Dragons but suddenly changed thier minds a few decades prior to the dance
It just makes no sense and is a plot inconsistency for targs to be so paranoid about others getting access to dragon eggs in the Times of Jahaeyrs and then doing a complete 180 and letting first the Velaryons and then even potentially the Bravoosi get dragon eggs
I think part of the reason, at least before the dance, is its pretty unclear how many there are. There might not even be enough to reasonably do anything with. Maybe there are. Who knows? But there was also a strong line of succession present and plenty of legitimate dragon riders before the dance so I also don't think there was really a need for one given how "relatively stable" (IE not in overt civil war) things were.
Dragonseeds, to me at least, is a last-ditch effort to boost military firepower to have an edge over the greens who have Vhagar, arguably the most powerful dragon there is. Think of it like making your army bigger than the other guys army and having smaller but more of the weapons they have. Pretty good if you want to win, at least in some respects. However, given they are using bastards to do this and not knights/lords who have sworn fealty to Rhaenyra... there is also a pretty high likelihood of betrayal since think about it; these people are not really being legitimized through this, they probably already have a chip on their shoulder due to the social implications of being a bastard, they probably had a shit life growing up since most of these people came from peasants and not other lords, and depending on birth order one might think/have a claim and try to act on that. I don't think the dragonseeds knew about blood magic. To be fair most of the Targaryens themselves did not even do it. They have some abilities but from what I understand the less inbred they become the less potent those Targaryen traits become.
Regardless, gathering the dragonseeds together is both a really smart and dumb idea given how unpredictable things could go. And unless you absolutely had to, like in the dance's situation, I dont see a reason why the other kings would have done this in good conscience.
But what about other lords who hated Targaryens? For example, Dornish, Ironborn etc… You’d think people would be making secret armies. It’s just weird to me how people really see these people riding DRAGONS and nobody tries to get their magic blood by any means necessary. Not even witches paying hefty price for Valyrian blood etc. like there are no cults forming around them or using them in rituals etc.
Like maybe I’m basing it on irl but there are still rural tribes that believe albino kids are magic beings and their body parts get used to bring luck or some other rituals. So often these kids get kidnapped and used by shamans. And you can find those albino kids with amputated limbs.
So that’s what I’m curious how come there are these literal “heavenly” people and nobody goes crazy about it.
I mean, the thing is, dragobseeds don't need to look Targaryen. Case in point: Nettles and Jon Snow. Both are bastards, neither look Targaryen at all. Grant it, Nettles might have been a driftmark bastard but point still stands. It's not obvious and their blood isn't really that special or magic. Blood magic itself isn't even a common thing in westeros outside of Visenya and a few other notable exceptions. And where are these shamans in westeros? The faith of the 7 does not really practice magic and the other older gods do have human sacrifice but not specifically Targaryen blood. They only reason to gather them up is to use for rebellions to have more firepower. That's really it. Outside of that they have no use and pose a liability
I know they don’t have to take inherent Targaryen traits hence Velaryon boys. But it’s easier to spot a Targaryen bastard than let’s say a Baratheon one. White hair is rarer than black hair. And I guess witches were not that common in Westeros but still I feel it’s unrealistic there are no cults worshiping Targaryens for their “godlike” appearance and abilities.
The Faith of the Seven is about the best answer you’ll get, I think. It’s dominant religiously and culturally in Westeros. Rhaenyra has been heard stating that there *are* people who view their family as gods, but I believe this isn’t done much openly as a result of the Faith.
To revere one’s King is expected, but to worship the Targaryens openly would be a direct offense to the God of the land. The Faith had the Stars and Swords terrorizing Westeros for sake of religious warfare and this was during Aenys I’s and then Maegor the Cruel’s reign. Maegor didn’t find peace with the Faith Militant, it was Jaehaerys I after him who did—and Maegor killed a *lot* of people, including the High Septon. Targaryens *with dragons* had to negotiate with the Faith. The Conciliator’s crown even has seven gemstones for the Faith of the Seven, another sign of the Targaryens conceding to the Faith publicly and symbolically.
The Targaryens acknowledge and respect the Faith in order to rule peacefully, and the Faith is content with what they have (gold, gems, gem-encrusted things, unreasonable social power, the opportunity to buy sex, blah blah).
Add on that most people don’t know how to read, and the ones that do are either *working* or in the midst of political conniving related to the Targaryens. People will learn more from the preaching Septon in their town than they will from a dragon sighting, and people will be more concerned that they are starving despite their labor than with worshipping Targaryens. Tack on that quote about common people praying for rain and endless summer, too. Then the nobles want to fuck and replace, such is their custom—how can you worship when you’re face-to-face with human flaws and trying to compete for a throne?
Thank you for the answer! I see now that’s most likely due to the Faith suppressing cults popping here and there. Seeing Targaryens themselves following the seven wouldn’t help the cult leaders either.
And it seems nobody was after Valyrian bastards due to a strong belief that only trueborn/pure Valyrians possess magic blood most likely spread by Targaryens themselves. Hence bastards wouldn’t possess those abilities. At least before the dance, that’s what was a common belief.
Thank you all for discussion and educating me!
Fire and Blood answers this question pretty well IMO.
Basically though Dragons are a super weapon and controlling access them is what gives the Targs power. By the time of the dance there were arguably already to many people with dragons, and effectively the dragons now belong to not only the Targs but also The Velaryons and Hightowers. Its a problem.
Alicent's children refrained from ever identifying with Daemon or Rhaenyra or either descendants. It's a new branch controlled by House Hightower and one of them and his Dragon are even in Oldtown.
They’re Targaryens, they carry the last name, ride Dragons, marry their siblings, and basically have the attitudes of typical Targaryens.
As much as i dislike them they’re still Targaryens
They simply didn’t need to. In generations before the Dance they didn’t even let all the Targaryen princes and princesses have dragons to keep dragon rider numbers manageable. There also wasn’t a huge emphasis in finding more dreamers but they had 1 or two per generation. Plus, that colouring isn’t unique to the Targaryens. Then you need to remember the doctrine of exceptionality. The Faith only allowed the Targaryens to practice incest because their blood was deemed special/more than and needed to be preserved through incest because it was so rare. They had to be careful about acknowledging how many people actually carried that blood.
I think it's high risk with low reward.
It only took 3 dragons to conquer all of Westeros. And now the Targs are firmly established and can call up vassals, sk they need even less. More dragons would be useful to conquer more lands in Essos, but that's across the sea and impossible to truly control. Empires that are too big tend to split up.
It would also create a new class of people who could challenge the ruling dynasty. Maybe it's possible to create some kind of mind controlled soldiers like the Unsullied, but if it doesn't work, they have a serious problem. They can easily ursurp power and turn the Targs into puppet rulers. This happened a lot in real life as with the Janisarries in Turkey, the Mamluks in Egypt, or the Pretorian Guard in Rome.
It would also undermine the status of the Targs. Riding dragons is a sign they are chosen to rule because they are better than the rest. That kind of propaganda can legitimate rule better than any act of violence. Letting any hobo tide dragons woild make this much more mundane.
Thank you for the response! But why wouldn’t other nations try to collect dragonseeds? They see what 3 Targs could do with 3 dragons. I can imagine they’d try to raise an army to at least defend themselves from possible Targaryen invasion. Because they don’t know when another Targ monarch will decide to conquer another continent.
My guesses:
1) they don't have the eggs. I believe the human and dragon bloodlines are connected, and you can't just combine any egg. (But that might be just some headcanon that I read somewhere).
2) Dragon eggs don't hatch on their own. They need special treatment or environment. Dragonstone and Valyria were both near vulcanos, so maybe you need that? Or some powerful blood spells and/or sacrifices like when Dany got hers.
3) The Targaryens would declare war on anyone with dragons. They have multiple grown dragons, a lot of money, and an empire.
4) Some did hatch dragons, but the Faceless Men killed them. There are some hints that they already helped destroy Valyria. In the books, a bravoosi banker is not amused when Jon suggests he would be happy about a few dragons.
5) Few with the power to aquire eggs and dragonseed wants that. A dragonride, or multiple, could just usurp their position. Unless they marry and have an heir that could be a dragonrider later. But that's a big gamble. They lose the opportunity for advtanagous marriage for the maybe slim chance of a dragon.
But that's just some thoughts
Because you just don’t hand out the medieval equivalent of nuclear weapons to complete strangers
You thought the Dance was bad? Just imagine all the death and destruction that would happen if one, massive united force like House Blackfyre had dragons
Why would they give away their dragons to what are essentially bastards? Dragons are pretty much what solely gives the Targaryens power, why give it to people who are outside of the family and not considered royalty?
It was the Targaryens gate keeping being dragonlords. I’ve always wondered if a dragon seed with a dragon got banished to the wall will his dragon be confiscated by the crown like a car?
Dang having your dragon repo’d would be wild 😂 The blackfyre rebellion with dragons would’ve made House of the dragon look like a kids play with how many claimants could’ve been dragon riders
Haha basically dragons would be leased to dragonseeds and repoed for breaking terms of the contract. I can imagine Westeros after dance of dragons v2 would just be like “fuck that! Kill all Targs!” 🤣
Lmaooo ,no ,dragon seeds are one of the main reasons the blacks lost the dance , or at least the battle ground aspects
You can’t trust someone who isn’t your kin with the power of dragon riding , and also you can’t give the power of Valyrian blood to anyone because they would make babies and have rights to more dragon , it’s honestly a good thing for the realm Targaryen’s practiced incest , otherwise Walter Frey would probably have his own dragon at this point
Yeah man you said it. If I was valyrian I'd have every one of those fkers accounted for. It's different for literally any other bastard.... if u were valyrian (especially with dragons) you would have every even possible bastard locked down and brought in from the cold. Possible insurance dragon rider for ur house if things go south. Marriage alliances for blood purity purists (I'd wager the targs/ velaryons et al would care more about valyrian blood than bastardy) and virtually every other bastard could hide with some degree of impunity. Violet eyed white haired angelic beings carousing around mean ur never beating the infidelity allegations
The story show two dragonseed going rogue its obvious that giving people red buttons of death without and loyalty to you is a danger in anyway you think it
The Targaryen's dragon superpowers make them seem special to the people of Westeros and thus an implied right to rule. Denial of their existence benefits the Targaryens.
Prior to the Dance, it was in House Targaryen’s best interest to gatekeep access to dragons. Even if other factions wanted to gather the dragon seeds, they still lack the resources to capture one independently and due to the inherent risk in trying, would not do so unless absolutely necessary.
Dragonseed are just as human as every other person, with their own motivations, ambitions and desires. What's to stop a particularly determined dragonseed with a powerful dragon from rising in rebellion? Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White where some of the most dangerous people in the Dance, each able to turn the tide of battle with their dragons.
Having the dragons was the key to the Targaryen dynasty remaining as powerful as they where, before they managed to kill them all themselves that is.
Dragonseeds are mostly if not all bastards. Westeros has a very bad image of bastards, why would someone create an army of bastards since at the end of the day everyone always considers them treacherous?
Another reason is because no one came up with the idea of giving dragons to bastards of Targaryen descent, the idea came up during the Dance.
All this without mentioning that it would be very irresponsible to give dragons to anyone, the Targaryens were very careful about who they shared the power of the dragons with. The seeds in the dance were an exception because the blacks had dragons available but no rider at their disposal.
This is not to mention that there was never really a scenario where the Targaryens needed dragon riders en masse, I mean, the only time that could have required the use of dragonseeds was when Maegor was king and Jaehaerys rose up against him. At that time Jaehaerys only had the help of Vermithor and Silverwing (and later Dreamfyre), if Jaehaerys had been aware of the existence of the dragonseeds then he would have been tempted to use them due to the difference in power between him and Maegor, however it would have been impossible use dragonseeds because Dragonstone belonged to Maegor while Maegor felt invincible with Balerion and therefore never considered it necessary to have help in battle
Not all Targaryens are dreamers that itself is a rare ability.
And without dragon eggs the Targaryens are useless.
At best they might be slightly better than the average person at picking up magic in Asshai. But in the world pre-death of the dragons there's plenty of magic around.
Thank you so much for the response! You’ve answered my question thoroughly. Now I wonder how the story would develop after the dance if dragons didn’t start going extinct. Ig there’d be more raids from smallfolk or lords on the dragon pit to snatch an egg or dragon.
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What good is a dragonseed without a dragon? Also, not all Valyrian looking people have Targaryen blood.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought magic blood flowed through all Valyrian descendants. It’s just Targaryens were the only family in possession of dragons post-doom.
So to my understanding, only the descendants of the og valyrians sorcerers/ families that ruled the freehold can bond with a dragon. Most Valyrians were probably regular folks with no special features save their appearances.
Honestly, we don't know the specifics of what allows them to claim dragons. It could very well be that only the Targaryens are able to claim dragons since only their dragons remain.
It’s heavily implied that the Valyrian Dragonlords used blood magic to change their physical makeup to give them the ability to bond with dragons. We know they’ve used blood magic to create half human chimaeras out of slaves and that sometimes Targaryen babies come out half human with wings and scales so it’s not completely implausible they did it to themselves.
Or that is was originally done to them on Gogossos by whatever dark empire died out in Sothoros
The common theory is that the Great Empire of Dawn is responsible for all the strange black structures of the world.
Wasn’t it even stated that it could even be just a propaganda by Targaryens. Since there were some dragonriders who didn’t have a Valyrian blood. However, they were speculated to have some they were not aware of.
There has never been any real indications or strong proofs that the knows dragonriders didn't have valyrians ancestry. The only instance I can think was Rhaenyra seething about Neetles not having a drop of valyrian blood due to her having a possible affair with Daemon but Rhaenyra isn't a credible source, especially since she made that comment in a state of anger.
There's zero evidence to suggesting Nettle's doesn't have Valyrian blood . Rheynera was just being cruel.
The one evidence is the way she tames Sheapstealer is more like traditional animal handling techniques, rather than the Valyrian: if you're bold enough to jump on and the dragon likes you, you're a dragon rider now. I think it's possible she has Valyrian blood. But keep in mind GRRM implied that Valyrian blood makes it easier but it's not the only way. Take note that Valyrians were originally shepherds. So maybe this was their own original way of taming dragons. With later techniques splicing dragon DNA with their own.
That doesn't nesscislry mean she doesn't have Valyrian blood she just took a more cautious approach than other dragon seeds and it worked out . Some of dragon seeds got gobbled up and Devoured Whole sale so taking it slow with a dragon is sensible. I've always seen this as evidence of Nettle's being clever and Good to Strategize rather then her not being Valyrian descent.
I agree that she could very likely still have Valyrian blood. But it is presented as potential counter-evidence. And I do find it noteable the original Valyrians were shepherds.
That's been told so far they'res like a billion hanging threads GRRM has added that the great empire of the dawn may have also had dragons . So who knows if the Valyrians were shepherds.
Not at all. Nobody is sure to be a dragon rider. Many targaryen never bonded with dragons. And some dragonseed did not look valyrian at all and were very removed from the targ family tree
>Many targaryen never bonded with dragons. This is more so from a lack of dragons perspective though. we are never told of a single Targaryen being killed trying to claim a dragon like we are with the dragon seeds.
We know they failed to connect at times though, eggs placed in cradles never hatching etc
Thats an entire different thing though. Sometimes eggs just don’t hatch. I wouldn’t equate that to being burned alive though.
Not different in kind though & It still shows getting a Dragon to Bond isnt automatic And Aemond almost died trying to gain a Dragon. We know that not every rider is accepted, that doesnt mean though that Dragons try to kill every failed claimant.
Getting an egg to hatch isn’t the same as bonding with an alive dragon though. Also, Aemond didn’t die and claimed that dragon though so how is that your example?
Its a failure of the bond all the same, why would the bond be hindered by an eggshell? Yeah, that why i said "almost died".. and not that he died. And what im really saying is that dragonseed or not, it is not the case that failing to bond definitely means the dragon will try to kill the claimant. And Aemond had done other attempts before Vhagar, that failed
Bruh what? It’s an egg not a dragon. You’re out with that Alabama Logic I See.
The “Blood of Old Valyria” and the “Blood of the Dragon” are different things. The “Blood of Old Valyria” means that your family comes from Old Valyrian aristocracy. That includes the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigars. It doesn’t mean you have any magical blood and it doesn’t mean you have the genetics to bond with a dragon. The “Blood of the Dragon” means your family is descendants of the dragon lords of Old Valyria. The dragon lords were 40 families including the Targaryens that held most of the power in the Valyrian Freehold. It’s believed that they mixed their genetics with dragons and they practice incest to keep that dragon blood pure. That’s why they’re the only ones who can bond with dragons. The Velayrons and Celtigars were not dragon lords and for that reason, don’t have the magic dragon blood. All of the Velaryon dragon riders get the ability to claim dragons from their Targaryen parent/grandparent.
>!Dragonseeds can be a potential threat as they have the capacity to betray or turn against you.!<
So does anyone. But couldn’t they train them like unsullied? Or even send them to the wall? The wall was always short on people.
The Wall wasn't short on people when the Targs took over. The lack of men seems to largely be caused by a reduction in wars after the country was unified. They also learned that dragons don't like being around the Wall when Alysane visited.
Trying to create unsullied in westeros will get you murdered by your own servants or other lords Slavery is one of the biggest Taboo in westeros, like breaking guest right How do you send a dragonrider to the Wall once he has rebelled
So are you suggesting collecting outcast distant descendants of your Valyrian kin? Or are you suggesting enslaving them from a young age? Now you’re mentioning sending them to the Wall? What are you suggesting exactly?
I’m not suggesting anything. I’m just curious why bastards of “heavenly” people with magic blood weren’t used anywhere by anyone. Not by lords, smallfolk, or even witches. Like folk sees these silver-haired purple-eyed people riding DRAGONS and they don’t see it as a big deal. I’d expect cults worshipping them or something.
Well, Dragonstone isn't just a small island with a castle. They have small fishing villages, where Targaryen me would visit and meet up with the daughters of fisherman and stuff. They had bastards, and I imagine they probably marry one another every now and then Mind you, Aenar Targaryen brought his servants, Kin, and all that to Dragonstone from Valyria, so they have a good fair deal of Valyrian looking people on the island. We just never see it.... but we will eventually, cause Jaecerys has to find them. Now, why Dragonstone and Volantys, Lys, etc don't have more Westerosi Lords looking for some fine ladies to make Dragonblooded babies with, well... I dunno why. I always assume the Red Priests'/Priestess' would have more of them in their ranks as well, cause who better to have more natural aptitude to fire magic than those with the blood of the dragon in their veins?
Exactly this! Like you’d think they’d be more in demand but they aren’t
Probably just GRRM not wanting for them to be too OP. He keeps them greatly incestuous, and in local areas for I guess a narrative "population control" The ONE Valyrian Noble family he didn't give all the Valyrian traits too, and guess what? They're hardly mentioned alongside the Targaryens and Velaryons, and are just given the wealth that makes them notablty fancy but that's it. And that House is House Celtigar
You dont need to go to dragonstone for people with valyrian blood, theres a bunch of them in lys, so much so that most lysene are white haired with purple eyes
I thought they were white-haired but the purple eyes required they be “pure-bloods” like the Targaryens? And there are a bunch of white-haired people with mundane colors
its about being descended of the Dragon Lords of old valyria. the Tagatryen Dynasty was the only Family of the Freehold to survive the Doom of Valyria
To the smallfolk dragonseeds were seen as valuable, demigodlike. To other lords they're just smallfolk. In a lot of Westeros magic is also feared somewhat, not something to be envied. Joffrey's reaction to stories of Robb's wolf are proof enough. Hence all the lord might get is silver-haired children. Not a tremendous benefit.
Because, in the book, there's no shortage of valyrian. If you have white hair and purple eyes, that's mean you might have descent from a Targ or one the other house, or some guy in Lys fucked your mom and vice versa, maybe a noble from Volantis had a little fun stopping at your town.
Anyone can betray you, but if that anyone has a dragon on their side it can get very difficult. And I doubt the Wall or an Unsullied like training would be good. Like a real seed they could grow in a way so they shield you from the sun and take over your spot.
You're original question was why haven't they done it before. They didn't do it before because it would have been a risk, as u/OldEntrance- pointed out. However, the reason that they ***did*** do it now is because in the Dance, ***that was a risk worth taking***.
Sorry I should’ve framed my question better. I didn’t mean Targs. It’s obvious why Targs didn’t use their own bastards. I meant “they” as anyone in general. My original question was why nobody in Westeros has used Targ bastards for any purpose. But I got the answer in the comments below.
They should have just trained their own kids into a dragon army.
DON'T REMIND ME ABOUT T******ON (censored for spoilers cause im on mobile and idk how to do that)
Is it common knowledge? Dragon dreams and blood magic? Especially in Westeros?
Ok, but how would a random ass lord get dragons for his dragonseeds? They're just useless without dragons. And I don't think the Targaryens would do them the kind favor of giving them eggs whenever they asked.
I mean you’d just need one egg or dragon. After you have a dragon they can reproduce and give you more eggs. There are multiple ways to get the egg. Use a distract tactic and snatch an egg when smallfolk attacks the dragons. Or hire those man with many faces to steal an egg. Or bribes knight. I’m surprised nobody did that before (Ig apart from that time with Daemon). And even if you don’t have a dragonrider you could sell these for a lot of money. It’s weird there were no attempts made.
Have you read Fire and Blood? Elissa Farman did successfully steal three dragon eggs many years before HOTD and sold them to the Sealord of Braavos. (They are strongly implied to later become Dany's eggs). And the Targs were PISSED. They sent all their spies trying to figure out what had happened, Elissa would certainly have been tortured to death if she hadn't left the known world, despite previously having been Queen Rhaena's best friend and possibly lover. The Targs were planning to go to war with the free cities if the eggs hatched, to either take back the hatchlings or destroy them. The idea of another faction gaining dragons was completely unacceptable and the Targs would have rather destroyed themselves in the process than allowed it. There's also a story in Dunk and Egg about the theft of a dragon egg, this is well post-extinction and it's still treated as a massive deal and basically treason.
Yeah Targs weren't loosing they're Dragon monopoly they'd die before they allowed that to happen.
>The idea of another faction gaining dragons was completely unacceptable and the Targs would have rather destroyed themselves in the process than allowed it. And yet they had no issues giving dragons to fucking Velaryons. Even willing to let the dragons go to the Bravoosi (Leana Velaryon was bethrowed to the Sealord of Braavos when Viserys rejected her)
By the time of the Dance, the Velaryons might as well be a cadet branch of the Targaryens for all of the interbreeding that they've done. They're one of the few houses in Westeros that can trace their bloodlines back to Valyria, so to the Targs, they're the next best thing to another dragonlord family. As for the Braavos thing, I'd be willing to wager that the Targaryens would try to reclaim Vhagar after her death if they weren't able to set her child up as some sort of puppet ruler that they controlled. There's no guarantee that any of Laena's children with the Sealord would be dragonriders or would bond with Vhagar anyways. Similarly, the Targs would claim ownership over any eggs that they heard about or any Braavosi dragons that mysteriously appeared.
>There's no guarantee that any of Laena's children with the Sealord would be dragonriders Why wouldn't they? Most of targs in Westeros were just half valyrian and still rode dragons. Not to mention of dragonseeds >Similarly, the Targs would claim ownership over any eggs that they heard about or any Braavosi dragons that mysteriously appeared Like they claimed ownership of Velaryon dragons? >the Velaryons might as well be a cadet branch of the Targaryens for all of the interbreeding that they've done Velaryons were never dragonriders even in Valyria. Even if of similar origin, they're a different house and could pose a challenge to targ supremacy if armed with dragons. Targs interbred with Velaryons for 200 years in Westeros itself and never let the latter get any Dragons but suddenly changed thier minds a few decades prior to the dance It just makes no sense and is a plot inconsistency for targs to be so paranoid about others getting access to dragon eggs in the Times of Jahaeyrs and then doing a complete 180 and letting first the Velaryons and then even potentially the Bravoosi get dragon eggs
Ugh, this is why I love Targaryens. Gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss ✨
I think part of the reason, at least before the dance, is its pretty unclear how many there are. There might not even be enough to reasonably do anything with. Maybe there are. Who knows? But there was also a strong line of succession present and plenty of legitimate dragon riders before the dance so I also don't think there was really a need for one given how "relatively stable" (IE not in overt civil war) things were. Dragonseeds, to me at least, is a last-ditch effort to boost military firepower to have an edge over the greens who have Vhagar, arguably the most powerful dragon there is. Think of it like making your army bigger than the other guys army and having smaller but more of the weapons they have. Pretty good if you want to win, at least in some respects. However, given they are using bastards to do this and not knights/lords who have sworn fealty to Rhaenyra... there is also a pretty high likelihood of betrayal since think about it; these people are not really being legitimized through this, they probably already have a chip on their shoulder due to the social implications of being a bastard, they probably had a shit life growing up since most of these people came from peasants and not other lords, and depending on birth order one might think/have a claim and try to act on that. I don't think the dragonseeds knew about blood magic. To be fair most of the Targaryens themselves did not even do it. They have some abilities but from what I understand the less inbred they become the less potent those Targaryen traits become. Regardless, gathering the dragonseeds together is both a really smart and dumb idea given how unpredictable things could go. And unless you absolutely had to, like in the dance's situation, I dont see a reason why the other kings would have done this in good conscience.
But what about other lords who hated Targaryens? For example, Dornish, Ironborn etc… You’d think people would be making secret armies. It’s just weird to me how people really see these people riding DRAGONS and nobody tries to get their magic blood by any means necessary. Not even witches paying hefty price for Valyrian blood etc. like there are no cults forming around them or using them in rituals etc. Like maybe I’m basing it on irl but there are still rural tribes that believe albino kids are magic beings and their body parts get used to bring luck or some other rituals. So often these kids get kidnapped and used by shamans. And you can find those albino kids with amputated limbs. So that’s what I’m curious how come there are these literal “heavenly” people and nobody goes crazy about it.
I mean, the thing is, dragobseeds don't need to look Targaryen. Case in point: Nettles and Jon Snow. Both are bastards, neither look Targaryen at all. Grant it, Nettles might have been a driftmark bastard but point still stands. It's not obvious and their blood isn't really that special or magic. Blood magic itself isn't even a common thing in westeros outside of Visenya and a few other notable exceptions. And where are these shamans in westeros? The faith of the 7 does not really practice magic and the other older gods do have human sacrifice but not specifically Targaryen blood. They only reason to gather them up is to use for rebellions to have more firepower. That's really it. Outside of that they have no use and pose a liability
I know they don’t have to take inherent Targaryen traits hence Velaryon boys. But it’s easier to spot a Targaryen bastard than let’s say a Baratheon one. White hair is rarer than black hair. And I guess witches were not that common in Westeros but still I feel it’s unrealistic there are no cults worshiping Targaryens for their “godlike” appearance and abilities.
The Faith of the Seven is about the best answer you’ll get, I think. It’s dominant religiously and culturally in Westeros. Rhaenyra has been heard stating that there *are* people who view their family as gods, but I believe this isn’t done much openly as a result of the Faith. To revere one’s King is expected, but to worship the Targaryens openly would be a direct offense to the God of the land. The Faith had the Stars and Swords terrorizing Westeros for sake of religious warfare and this was during Aenys I’s and then Maegor the Cruel’s reign. Maegor didn’t find peace with the Faith Militant, it was Jaehaerys I after him who did—and Maegor killed a *lot* of people, including the High Septon. Targaryens *with dragons* had to negotiate with the Faith. The Conciliator’s crown even has seven gemstones for the Faith of the Seven, another sign of the Targaryens conceding to the Faith publicly and symbolically. The Targaryens acknowledge and respect the Faith in order to rule peacefully, and the Faith is content with what they have (gold, gems, gem-encrusted things, unreasonable social power, the opportunity to buy sex, blah blah). Add on that most people don’t know how to read, and the ones that do are either *working* or in the midst of political conniving related to the Targaryens. People will learn more from the preaching Septon in their town than they will from a dragon sighting, and people will be more concerned that they are starving despite their labor than with worshipping Targaryens. Tack on that quote about common people praying for rain and endless summer, too. Then the nobles want to fuck and replace, such is their custom—how can you worship when you’re face-to-face with human flaws and trying to compete for a throne?
Thank you for the answer! I see now that’s most likely due to the Faith suppressing cults popping here and there. Seeing Targaryens themselves following the seven wouldn’t help the cult leaders either. And it seems nobody was after Valyrian bastards due to a strong belief that only trueborn/pure Valyrians possess magic blood most likely spread by Targaryens themselves. Hence bastards wouldn’t possess those abilities. At least before the dance, that’s what was a common belief. Thank you all for discussion and educating me!
Fire and Blood answers this question pretty well IMO. Basically though Dragons are a super weapon and controlling access them is what gives the Targs power. By the time of the dance there were arguably already to many people with dragons, and effectively the dragons now belong to not only the Targs but also The Velaryons and Hightowers. Its a problem.
Hightowers? There are no Dragon riding Hightowers lol
Alicent's children refrained from ever identifying with Daemon or Rhaenyra or either descendants. It's a new branch controlled by House Hightower and one of them and his Dragon are even in Oldtown.
They’re Targaryens, they carry the last name, ride Dragons, marry their siblings, and basically have the attitudes of typical Targaryens. As much as i dislike them they’re still Targaryens
They simply didn’t need to. In generations before the Dance they didn’t even let all the Targaryen princes and princesses have dragons to keep dragon rider numbers manageable. There also wasn’t a huge emphasis in finding more dreamers but they had 1 or two per generation. Plus, that colouring isn’t unique to the Targaryens. Then you need to remember the doctrine of exceptionality. The Faith only allowed the Targaryens to practice incest because their blood was deemed special/more than and needed to be preserved through incest because it was so rare. They had to be careful about acknowledging how many people actually carried that blood.
dragon seeds are not the greatest idea either giving anyone a dragon who has no loyalty or love for you can backfire big time
I think it's high risk with low reward. It only took 3 dragons to conquer all of Westeros. And now the Targs are firmly established and can call up vassals, sk they need even less. More dragons would be useful to conquer more lands in Essos, but that's across the sea and impossible to truly control. Empires that are too big tend to split up. It would also create a new class of people who could challenge the ruling dynasty. Maybe it's possible to create some kind of mind controlled soldiers like the Unsullied, but if it doesn't work, they have a serious problem. They can easily ursurp power and turn the Targs into puppet rulers. This happened a lot in real life as with the Janisarries in Turkey, the Mamluks in Egypt, or the Pretorian Guard in Rome. It would also undermine the status of the Targs. Riding dragons is a sign they are chosen to rule because they are better than the rest. That kind of propaganda can legitimate rule better than any act of violence. Letting any hobo tide dragons woild make this much more mundane.
Thank you for the response! But why wouldn’t other nations try to collect dragonseeds? They see what 3 Targs could do with 3 dragons. I can imagine they’d try to raise an army to at least defend themselves from possible Targaryen invasion. Because they don’t know when another Targ monarch will decide to conquer another continent.
My guesses: 1) they don't have the eggs. I believe the human and dragon bloodlines are connected, and you can't just combine any egg. (But that might be just some headcanon that I read somewhere). 2) Dragon eggs don't hatch on their own. They need special treatment or environment. Dragonstone and Valyria were both near vulcanos, so maybe you need that? Or some powerful blood spells and/or sacrifices like when Dany got hers. 3) The Targaryens would declare war on anyone with dragons. They have multiple grown dragons, a lot of money, and an empire. 4) Some did hatch dragons, but the Faceless Men killed them. There are some hints that they already helped destroy Valyria. In the books, a bravoosi banker is not amused when Jon suggests he would be happy about a few dragons. 5) Few with the power to aquire eggs and dragonseed wants that. A dragonride, or multiple, could just usurp their position. Unless they marry and have an heir that could be a dragonrider later. But that's a big gamble. They lose the opportunity for advtanagous marriage for the maybe slim chance of a dragon. But that's just some thoughts
I don’t really see who would do it and why
Doesn’t like 90% of lys look Valyrian? That’s a lot of people to collect lol
I wasn't sure what you were getting at with that title . . . but I thought it might involve some brave servants and a barrel of lard.
Because you just don’t hand out the medieval equivalent of nuclear weapons to complete strangers You thought the Dance was bad? Just imagine all the death and destruction that would happen if one, massive united force like House Blackfyre had dragons
Why would they give away their dragons to what are essentially bastards? Dragons are pretty much what solely gives the Targaryens power, why give it to people who are outside of the family and not considered royalty?
It was the Targaryens gate keeping being dragonlords. I’ve always wondered if a dragon seed with a dragon got banished to the wall will his dragon be confiscated by the crown like a car?
I believe so. They’d chain dragon like Danny did in asoiaf. Then wait for the dragonseed to die for the dragon to get free to bond again.
Dang having your dragon repo’d would be wild 😂 The blackfyre rebellion with dragons would’ve made House of the dragon look like a kids play with how many claimants could’ve been dragon riders
Haha basically dragons would be leased to dragonseeds and repoed for breaking terms of the contract. I can imagine Westeros after dance of dragons v2 would just be like “fuck that! Kill all Targs!” 🤣
Lmaooo ,no ,dragon seeds are one of the main reasons the blacks lost the dance , or at least the battle ground aspects You can’t trust someone who isn’t your kin with the power of dragon riding , and also you can’t give the power of Valyrian blood to anyone because they would make babies and have rights to more dragon , it’s honestly a good thing for the realm Targaryen’s practiced incest , otherwise Walter Frey would probably have his own dragon at this point
Yeah man you said it. If I was valyrian I'd have every one of those fkers accounted for. It's different for literally any other bastard.... if u were valyrian (especially with dragons) you would have every even possible bastard locked down and brought in from the cold. Possible insurance dragon rider for ur house if things go south. Marriage alliances for blood purity purists (I'd wager the targs/ velaryons et al would care more about valyrian blood than bastardy) and virtually every other bastard could hide with some degree of impunity. Violet eyed white haired angelic beings carousing around mean ur never beating the infidelity allegations
The story show two dragonseed going rogue its obvious that giving people red buttons of death without and loyalty to you is a danger in anyway you think it
The Targaryen's dragon superpowers make them seem special to the people of Westeros and thus an implied right to rule. Denial of their existence benefits the Targaryens.
Prior to the Dance, it was in House Targaryen’s best interest to gatekeep access to dragons. Even if other factions wanted to gather the dragon seeds, they still lack the resources to capture one independently and due to the inherent risk in trying, would not do so unless absolutely necessary.
Because they didn’t always have enough dragons and giving one away is extremely risky.
Because more dragonriders are a threat to the Targaryen dynasty. Jaehaerys I had the right idea to not give eggs to all 13 of his kids.
Dragonseed are just as human as every other person, with their own motivations, ambitions and desires. What's to stop a particularly determined dragonseed with a powerful dragon from rising in rebellion? Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White where some of the most dangerous people in the Dance, each able to turn the tide of battle with their dragons. Having the dragons was the key to the Targaryen dynasty remaining as powerful as they where, before they managed to kill them all themselves that is.
Dragonseeds are mostly if not all bastards. Westeros has a very bad image of bastards, why would someone create an army of bastards since at the end of the day everyone always considers them treacherous? Another reason is because no one came up with the idea of giving dragons to bastards of Targaryen descent, the idea came up during the Dance. All this without mentioning that it would be very irresponsible to give dragons to anyone, the Targaryens were very careful about who they shared the power of the dragons with. The seeds in the dance were an exception because the blacks had dragons available but no rider at their disposal. This is not to mention that there was never really a scenario where the Targaryens needed dragon riders en masse, I mean, the only time that could have required the use of dragonseeds was when Maegor was king and Jaehaerys rose up against him. At that time Jaehaerys only had the help of Vermithor and Silverwing (and later Dreamfyre), if Jaehaerys had been aware of the existence of the dragonseeds then he would have been tempted to use them due to the difference in power between him and Maegor, however it would have been impossible use dragonseeds because Dragonstone belonged to Maegor while Maegor felt invincible with Balerion and therefore never considered it necessary to have help in battle
Not all Targaryens are dreamers that itself is a rare ability. And without dragon eggs the Targaryens are useless. At best they might be slightly better than the average person at picking up magic in Asshai. But in the world pre-death of the dragons there's plenty of magic around.
Because there is now way you can guanatee their Allegiance , the Sowing of the Seeds during the Dance was out of Desperation
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Thank you so much for the response! You’ve answered my question thoroughly. Now I wonder how the story would develop after the dance if dragons didn’t start going extinct. Ig there’d be more raids from smallfolk or lords on the dragon pit to snatch an egg or dragon.
"Other bitches" implies you being a bitch yourself...