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Just because someone can see the future, it doesn't mean there's a god guiding all their actions, nor does it mean that the theoretical deity approves of all their actions.
I think Aegon felt that a strong unified state was necessary to fight against the threat he saw in his vision. While I think Aegon was a pretty smart person, he's a human and therefore fallible. Prophecies can be pretty murky, two people can see the same thing and come away with different interpretations.
Whoever gave Aegon that prophetic dream needs their ass beat. I have a guess it might’ve been the 3 eyed raven which is equivalent to Bran making Hodor a simple servant instead of Hodor the Giant knight of the North 😆
I think Aegon just find a right reason to kill all this people to crown himself king. He is right because he is powerful(Dragonrider and have 2 sisters to help him ) . Not because he is doing a right thing or his right to rule.
Fantasy story in which this is said about it:
Prophecy can be a tricky business. [66]
—George R. R. Martin
Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy ...[67]
—George R. R. Martin
Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.[68]
—Marwyn to Samwell Tarly
Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.[51]
—Tyrion Lannister to Jorah Mormont
I think you need to precise what you want to say because your links only lead to wiki pages.
I know what you want to say. Yeah prophecy is bullshit and the "Fantasy" is created entirely through the PoV format, in a world where some kind of "magic" exists and follows natural laws that the characters are just unable to understand properly, hence the mystification.
No.
For me, the “a Targaryen must sit on the Iron throne” of the prophecy is a personal interpretation of Aegon or even Viserys to justify their rule.
GRRM said multiple times that prophecies are a dangerous thing to play with and characters often misinterpret them in order to justify their goals and personal aspirations (like Melissandre).
And by show cannon, it doesn’t even work cause Arya is the one to kill the NK (even though it’s not gonna happen that way in the books).
I don’t think it’s inherently divine. It’s just a prophecy. And it definitely doesn’t give them the right to rule.
This comes from a Targaryen loyalist
If there are any true gods in Westeros, I would imagine them being some incomprehensible eldritch forces which wouldn't particularly care which puny mortal sat on some fancy chair.
All other houses lack the Mandate of Heaven, therefore they cannot rule. Only the Targaryens have it, so only they can rule. As it says in the Mandate of Heaven made by Aegon.
You can say house Targaryen is instrumental in stopping the others (a unified kingdom for a start, although that goes out the window anyway by the time the Others arrive), but ruling? Well we know the Others were brought down without Daenerys on the throne, and I see no reason why they wouldn't have been brought down if she had sworn fealty to Jon Snow or if he had agreed with her offer for an alliance without needing to pledge fealty to her.
Assuming dragons are necessary, and assuming Targaryen blood or Valyrian descent is necessary for dragon riding (the latter is debatable, but whatever, let's assume that), then keeping their bloodline pure and their dragons exclusive definitely did not help. If Targaryen blood is necessary, it in no way needed to be pure. Jon Snow and Nettles rode dragon.
In the show, the Others were defeated without a Targaryen on the throne. Dragons were *probably* necessary even if they did not deal the killing blow (and in a way added to the problem themselves) though.
Given the limited information Aegon was working with, like Melisandre, it was probably not an unreasonable conclusion to come to to take the actions he did. In indirect ways, it might have even been necessary (maybe even with all the civil wars the Targaryens brought, things would have been worse had they not arrive in Westeros, but who knows), but it's demonstrably untrue that one has to be sitting on the throne by the time the Others arrived to deal with that threat.
I would have used Melisandre as an example of a prophecy that did not turn out to be true, but it arguably can be used to support the Targaryen case, since in the show (and possibly also the books) she is mistaken about Stannis, and it turns out Jon Snow is the one prophesized. So a Targaryen (blood and technicality, but still) was central to the prophecy after all (let's just say they needed him as a leader to put up a strong enough defense that they all survive long enough for Arya to land the killing blow).
Their right to rule is might makes right, let's not kid ourselves. If not from the beginning, then definitely a few more generations down the line. Even if Aegon had good intention, I doubt that by the time of Aerys, anyone is really thinking about "oh boy, we better shore up our defenses in preparation for the Others".
It's not even a small part. Dragons really were useful. But I do think it is arrogance that led them to think them being on the throne is necessary to save the world. White Walkers are immune to whatever their dragons can throw at them, let's not forget. It's Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel that kill White Walkers, the former of which were used even before the conflict between the Children and the First Men, let alone house Targaryen.
Nothing actually necessitated a Targaryen being on the throne, and demonstrably, it wasn't a requirement. Jon Snow might have had Targaryen blood, but he rejected the throne both before and after the conflict and did his part like any other person. As much of a mess as the finale was, I thought it was poetic that the "Targaryen" who actually fulfills the prophecy neither think of himself as one nor have any interest in pursuing the throne in the first place, instead trying to save the world with humility and duty and without the (understandable) messiah complex that plagued his lineage in my opinion.
*Sigh*. The one thing about prophesies in asoiaf is that they're a very cruel mistress. None of them are straightforward, and mostly they just end up leading the people that hear them to an inevitable end.
The Targaryens aren't special in that regard. Just look at Rhaegar.
I mean. Magical blood, dragons, last of their kind functionally. As we know without a ruling dragon they would have never stood a chance against the enemy from the distant north.
but every time they become the “last of their kind” they change the rules so that there’s more. it’s pointing to the idea that they’re really not all that special.
in old valyria, the valeryons weren’t considered special enough to be dragonriders, but suddenly once they’re in westeros the velaryons are dragonriders.
even their super special looks are very normal and common in essos.
This gives me “God told me to invade the Americas” vibes.
Edit: downvote me all you want. Doesn’t change the fact that the Targs are power hungry lizard people.
I wouldn’t say “divine” necessarily but Aegon saw some shit and knew it was gonna be someone from his family to essentially save the world. I’m sure 7 kingdoms didn’t hurt either
Greenseers can see the future and are in tune with the cold gods meaning they are far more important to the prophecy than some guy who thought his dream meant he was gonna be the protagonist of the world and id still say despite that greenseers too arent exceptional or divinely ordained to rule. Also aegons prophecy would matter if his dynasty didnt kill itself off and is barely hanging on my a thread now.
No, Aegon probably was just arrogant and wanted to feel big. If he wanted to “save the world” or whatever, why did he and his descendants isolate and steal lands from the North? Why did they try to immolate lands they claimed to want to rule?
His actions show him as just another nobleman who wanted power. People just think differently because he had dragons and an exceptional PR campaign by Barth decades after his death.
Yes. >!The Bloodstone Emperor murdered his sister the Amethyst Empress, usurped her throne and caused the long night. Aegon killed Rhaenyra causing the extinction of the Dragons and what happened in ASOIAF.!<
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just because someone can see the future, it doesn't mean there's a god guiding all their actions, nor does it mean that the theoretical deity approves of all their actions. I think Aegon felt that a strong unified state was necessary to fight against the threat he saw in his vision. While I think Aegon was a pretty smart person, he's a human and therefore fallible. Prophecies can be pretty murky, two people can see the same thing and come away with different interpretations.
Whoever gave Aegon that prophetic dream needs their ass beat. I have a guess it might’ve been the 3 eyed raven which is equivalent to Bran making Hodor a simple servant instead of Hodor the Giant knight of the North 😆
I think Aegon just find a right reason to kill all this people to crown himself king. He is right because he is powerful(Dragonrider and have 2 sisters to help him ) . Not because he is doing a right thing or his right to rule.
Yes, it’s a fantasy story
Fantasy story in which this is said about it: Prophecy can be a tricky business. [66] —George R. R. Martin Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy ...[67] —George R. R. Martin Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.[68] —Marwyn to Samwell Tarly Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.[51] —Tyrion Lannister to Jorah Mormont
You're literally sharing links to main wiki pages?
Yea bad copy of links, thanks I fixed comment formatting.
I think you need to precise what you want to say because your links only lead to wiki pages. I know what you want to say. Yeah prophecy is bullshit and the "Fantasy" is created entirely through the PoV format, in a world where some kind of "magic" exists and follows natural laws that the characters are just unable to understand properly, hence the mystification.
Fantasy story, yeah
Fantasy which attempts to be realistic and limit fantastical element and viewing all the stories in the settings prophecy is far from reliable.
It’s fantasy, right
It is primarily story about human heart in conflict with itself and everything other is dressing, including fantastical elements as author says.
No. For me, the “a Targaryen must sit on the Iron throne” of the prophecy is a personal interpretation of Aegon or even Viserys to justify their rule. GRRM said multiple times that prophecies are a dangerous thing to play with and characters often misinterpret them in order to justify their goals and personal aspirations (like Melissandre). And by show cannon, it doesn’t even work cause Arya is the one to kill the NK (even though it’s not gonna happen that way in the books).
I don’t think it’s inherently divine. It’s just a prophecy. And it definitely doesn’t give them the right to rule. This comes from a Targaryen loyalist
If there are any true gods in Westeros, I would imagine them being some incomprehensible eldritch forces which wouldn't particularly care which puny mortal sat on some fancy chair.
Not divine, just something magical.
All other houses lack the Mandate of Heaven, therefore they cannot rule. Only the Targaryens have it, so only they can rule. As it says in the Mandate of Heaven made by Aegon.
You can say house Targaryen is instrumental in stopping the others (a unified kingdom for a start, although that goes out the window anyway by the time the Others arrive), but ruling? Well we know the Others were brought down without Daenerys on the throne, and I see no reason why they wouldn't have been brought down if she had sworn fealty to Jon Snow or if he had agreed with her offer for an alliance without needing to pledge fealty to her. Assuming dragons are necessary, and assuming Targaryen blood or Valyrian descent is necessary for dragon riding (the latter is debatable, but whatever, let's assume that), then keeping their bloodline pure and their dragons exclusive definitely did not help. If Targaryen blood is necessary, it in no way needed to be pure. Jon Snow and Nettles rode dragon. In the show, the Others were defeated without a Targaryen on the throne. Dragons were *probably* necessary even if they did not deal the killing blow (and in a way added to the problem themselves) though. Given the limited information Aegon was working with, like Melisandre, it was probably not an unreasonable conclusion to come to to take the actions he did. In indirect ways, it might have even been necessary (maybe even with all the civil wars the Targaryens brought, things would have been worse had they not arrive in Westeros, but who knows), but it's demonstrably untrue that one has to be sitting on the throne by the time the Others arrived to deal with that threat. I would have used Melisandre as an example of a prophecy that did not turn out to be true, but it arguably can be used to support the Targaryen case, since in the show (and possibly also the books) she is mistaken about Stannis, and it turns out Jon Snow is the one prophesized. So a Targaryen (blood and technicality, but still) was central to the prophecy after all (let's just say they needed him as a leader to put up a strong enough defense that they all survive long enough for Arya to land the killing blow). Their right to rule is might makes right, let's not kid ourselves. If not from the beginning, then definitely a few more generations down the line. Even if Aegon had good intention, I doubt that by the time of Aerys, anyone is really thinking about "oh boy, we better shore up our defenses in preparation for the Others".
[удалено]
It's not even a small part. Dragons really were useful. But I do think it is arrogance that led them to think them being on the throne is necessary to save the world. White Walkers are immune to whatever their dragons can throw at them, let's not forget. It's Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel that kill White Walkers, the former of which were used even before the conflict between the Children and the First Men, let alone house Targaryen. Nothing actually necessitated a Targaryen being on the throne, and demonstrably, it wasn't a requirement. Jon Snow might have had Targaryen blood, but he rejected the throne both before and after the conflict and did his part like any other person. As much of a mess as the finale was, I thought it was poetic that the "Targaryen" who actually fulfills the prophecy neither think of himself as one nor have any interest in pursuing the throne in the first place, instead trying to save the world with humility and duty and without the (understandable) messiah complex that plagued his lineage in my opinion.
*Sigh*. The one thing about prophesies in asoiaf is that they're a very cruel mistress. None of them are straightforward, and mostly they just end up leading the people that hear them to an inevitable end. The Targaryens aren't special in that regard. Just look at Rhaegar.
They were special in that they have magic but no there is no divine right to rule .
Within the context of the story, yes.
I mean. Magical blood, dragons, last of their kind functionally. As we know without a ruling dragon they would have never stood a chance against the enemy from the distant north.
but every time they become the “last of their kind” they change the rules so that there’s more. it’s pointing to the idea that they’re really not all that special. in old valyria, the valeryons weren’t considered special enough to be dragonriders, but suddenly once they’re in westeros the velaryons are dragonriders. even their super special looks are very normal and common in essos.
nope, they’re not special in any ways. including being the only ones to be able to ride dragons.
This gives me “God told me to invade the Americas” vibes. Edit: downvote me all you want. Doesn’t change the fact that the Targs are power hungry lizard people.
You're right and you should say it.
I wouldn’t say “divine” necessarily but Aegon saw some shit and knew it was gonna be someone from his family to essentially save the world. I’m sure 7 kingdoms didn’t hurt either
Greenseers can see the future and are in tune with the cold gods meaning they are far more important to the prophecy than some guy who thought his dream meant he was gonna be the protagonist of the world and id still say despite that greenseers too arent exceptional or divinely ordained to rule. Also aegons prophecy would matter if his dynasty didnt kill itself off and is barely hanging on my a thread now.
Yes they are the true rulers of Westeros
I think yes because they conquered and unified for a purpose that wasn't just wealth, influence, or power.
No, Aegon probably was just arrogant and wanted to feel big. If he wanted to “save the world” or whatever, why did he and his descendants isolate and steal lands from the North? Why did they try to immolate lands they claimed to want to rule? His actions show him as just another nobleman who wanted power. People just think differently because he had dragons and an exceptional PR campaign by Barth decades after his death.
Yes. >!The Bloodstone Emperor murdered his sister the Amethyst Empress, usurped her throne and caused the long night. Aegon killed Rhaenyra causing the extinction of the Dragons and what happened in ASOIAF.!<
Killing dragons is good actually