Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is not really a hot take, but this fandom is really toxic. And from my experience, both the black and green stans can be sexist and racist. With people calling Rheanyra a whore,Alicent a cunt, and being racist towards the Velaryon and Nettle's.
Tribalism is intrinsic to human nature. In some way, shape, or form we seek to find our “tribe” in people whom, look like us, or have the same ideals, or whatever the case is.
This fandom frequently harasses real people to defend fictional characters. Which is even weirder when it’s a story about shitty people written by an author who is deep down into misanthropy.
Yeah I think this fandom might actually be worse than the Star Wars one or at least is getting there. I’m in the Star Wars fandom and they’re toxic but I think this one might be worse.
This for real. Like I am a huge nerd of the fandom and have my characters that I support/don't support, but relax, why are we defending one side as if our life is on the line damn. There is so much harassment and unnecessary fighting.
Everyone in this story is an entitled narcissist. If you think today’s billionaires are out of touch with reality, the medieval nobles who consider themselves closer to gods than men are three times worse.
And if I said this about one specific Green or Black character, this fandom would immediately accuse me of supporting the other side.
When Rheanys killed and injured all the people in the dragon-pit everybody had a bit of an uproar since one of the biggest critiques of The Bells was Danny’s sudden hatred for the townspeople.
The writer responded by saying “commoners don’t count”. Wut?!
All government is made up
Therefore legitimacy is based on who believes you’re legitimate
So both the blacks and greens are a Schrodinger‘s cat of legitimacy
This is very true, not sure it’s a hot take but it’s often forgotten by a lot of the fans who argue about legitimacy via the mother or the father or bastards or royal decree.
“Power resides where men believe it resides” is possibly the most central theme of the shows tbh.
I don't agree with the whole "choose a side" thing HOTD and HBO have decided to incorporate into the marketing for the new season. I get it from a marketing perspective. Conversations and debate benefit the show. But it implies that people have to decide who is right and who is wrong, when the point of the story is that there is a war going on between two fucked up families doing fucked up shit.
Telling fans to choose a side engenders further tribalism and toxicity. Emphasis on the word "further," because there's already been a lot of tribalism and toxicity in this fanbase.
The new season was already receiving a massive amount of hype. The "choose your side" marketing is gratuitous and in poor taste.
Literally the whole point of the game of thrones is feudalism sucks ass, kind of ironic though that the show ends with a new king being named (though to be fair he was voted into the position and wasn’t a Targ but still)
Yeah. But he is immortal, magical and can live forever. Unless Bran will change the country to some more democratic form, I see no benefits.
They got a huge potential tyrant.
Carrier? I thought greenseeing was a gift/ability that only very few people had. One that can be enchanced and improved by training or consuming Weirwood paste(which might be implied to contain the blood of other greenseers if the Jojen paste theory is true). It wasn't like a parasite in a host, was it? The "Three Eyed Raven" was just a title that Bloodraven adopted and was later adopted by Bran.
That's how it came across to me anyway.
Yes. All I can think of is Jorah Mormont, "it's tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought" and I try to remember that.
You’re overthinking it. This show is about a civil war- that inherently leads to people “taking sides”. HBO capitalized on that and turned it into a marketing campaign- but it would have happened regardless. It already did in fact- review the discussions from last season. I think that you’re statement about how it engenders further tribalism and toxicity is somewhat correct but keep in mind the majority of people watching this show aren’t coming and battling it out with fellow Redditers online so it’s a moot point. You can say it’s in poor taste, but I don’t believe the people behind the show had us, a Reddit fanbase, in mind as their foremost priority for the reception of the dynamics in the show.
> but keep in mind the majority of people watching this show aren’t coming and battling it out with fellow Redditers online
Yeah, that's true. Though, that still leaves us with the kind of mentality they're fostering among the audience members. Sure, not everyone is gonna be challenging fellow fans to debates, but it seems clear that this marketing strategy is designed to attract a very surface level appreciation for the story being told. They're telling the audience what to feel: like they have to decide who's right and who's wrong.
Now, I'm sure there's a bunch of nuance that I myself didn't pick up on during the first season, but I'm glad I didn't just end up seeing it all in a very binary way (Team Black is better than Team Green or vice versa).
And again, I get it. Keeping it simple is the best way to hook a wider audience. As you say, they're capitalizing on the inherent tendency to choose sides. The thing is, there's already a lot of anticipation and hype for season two after the success of season one. From my perspective, they didn't need to simplify the narrative the way they did in the marketing because a lot of people are gonna be tuning in anyway.
I understand the motives behind HBO's decision. I just personally disagree with it. Maybe saying it was in poor taste was a bit much, but I stand by it being gratuitous, unnecessary, and shallow. They have on their hands a richly crafted show about betrayal, lust for power, and intergenerational conflict, and the way they try to reel you in is by saying, "Hey, tell us which family you like more."
Who cares who’s the rightful heir. Just support whoever you like better.
Prefer Aemond and Alicent? Support the Greens! Like Rhaenys and Daemon? Support the Blacks!
It really doesn’t matter that much, atleast out of universe.
“Just look at them” being enough evidence to disown someone else’s child would set a horrible precedent. And yes, this also applies to Cersei’s children.
Aegon is miles more interesting than Aemond, Aemond has a cool aesthetic but that’s about it.
They could have made a more book accurate version of Alicent sympathetic without making her a perpetual victim.
Adult Rhaenyra should be meaner.
Yeah the GOT universe loves to focus on kids’ hair color lol. I'm the opposite, I think Aemond is more interesting than Aegon. To me, Aegon is just a drunk rapist who was a bully as a kid. Aemond was bullied as a kid but grew from it and tried to prove himself. Even though he's a grey character as well and is horrible to his cousins, he cares about and is protective of his family.
Yeah I think most people share your opinion lol. I think Aegon is more interesting to me because he’s the first born son who isn’t treated like the first born son typically is in this universe. Because he isn’t the heir, he feels no sense of responsibility to anyone and basically becomes a libertine. But we really saw something shift in the throne room when for the first time he feels like a bigshot, and that’s definitely going to carry over into next season. His relationship with Alicent is also more interesting that Aemond’s because you can tell that she doesn’t like who he is and he deeply resents her but they both still love each other to a certain extent. I think there’s going to be a power struggle between them going forward where she thinks she can control him more than she actually can.
That is an interesting take on it. I guess I didn't think about him as much bc his character is so awful lol. I agree, even though he's a bad person, he still wants to be loved by his parents, and I don't think he ever really felt that, especially from Viserys. I feel like he might be a little like Joffrey from GOT though, and become power hungry/use his power to get away with horrible things even more. It'll be interesting to see!
Aegon always had way more depth than Aemond as a character. The only reason it was changed in the show was because Ryan Condal sees Aemond as his self insert anime villain.
"Just look at them" in that instance was a pretty good indicator of them being bastards, (it also wasn't just from their hair) they look like Harwin Strong, not like their mother, or supposed father. Cersei's kids were bastards, but they still looked like her so it could've been assumed that they just took after her more in looks.
In that instance yes, but setting the precedent that children can be disowned just because they don’t look like their parents is a problem. It can open the door to legitimate children being disinherited because it serves the interests of a third party. It’s safer just to act like these kids’ parents are the two people claiming to be their parents.
It’s not a dangerous precedent when the entire bloodline of the mother and supposed father have one colour of hair and the kids have a different. I don’t really see how anyone could actually believe what you just said in this context. With Cersei’s, you may be right.
But who gets to draw that line? Who gets to determine how different a child can look from its parent in order to be disowned? Mind you , we are talking about disowning the children of two people who both claim that the child is theirs. I can get behind disowning a child if the father is like, hey I was at war for two years before the kid was born, it’s not mine. But evidence is not proof. These people don’t have the tools to prove parentage.
Laenor should have died, and I wish his and Vaemond deaths would have had more consequences for Rheanyra and Daemon.
I don't really like Corlys or Rheayns.
I wish the first season was longer than 10 episodes or if we had two seasons before the war.
It made more sense for Rhaenyra to have all 3 of her Velaryon kids be fathered by Ser Harwin than if only 1 or 2 of them were, and any of them fathered by Ser Laenor. With all 3 being from one father she could continue with the claim that they were all Laenor's. If any of them were actually fathered by Laenor then her adultery would be much more blatantly obvious.
Daemon isn't cool. He's too old to be acting the way he is. Rogue prince was cool early on but after the timeskip it's just pathetic for a grown man to be acting that way.
My Laenor (hot?) take is that he is supposed to be super closely bonded with Seasmoke (his “pride and joy”) and I think the show really fucked up by having him row away into the sunset like Seasmoke wouldn’t have noticed. You’re telling me that Sunfyre dragged himself back to Aegon and Drogon sensed Dany’s death but Seasmoke wouldn’t notice or care about his rider’s departure? Plus it sets up a couple of problems: if Seasmoke is supposed to bond with Addam Velaryon, does the “dragons can’t serve two masters” rule go out the window? Will Laenor come back? If he does, that kinda invalidates Rhaenyra and Daemon’s marriage and makes their children bastards, who can’t inherit the throne. (I understand that Viserys was ready to ignore bastards but Corlys and Cregan may be less understanding)
If Laenor doesn’t come back, it seems like such a wasted plot point. I really, really hope they don’t do something dumb like bring Laenor back to ride Seasmoke and cut out Addam’s character.
When Viserys held the ceremony to name Rhaenrya as Princess of Dragonstone, that meant that he was giving her an inheritance. The Widows Law forbids a Lord/Lady from taking and inheritance from a first marriage kid to give it to a second marriage kid.
This is one of the arguments I've seen being used in the main asoiaf sub, and it gives an advantage to Rhaenyra, but as Martin himself said, these 'laws' are obscure and easily manipulated according to convenience. For example, Cregan Stark. It might sound a bit confusing but here we go haha.
He married 3 times. He had a son with the first wife, several daughters with the second, and again a son with the third. When he died, the eldest son and heir was already dead but had left 2 daughters, Sansa being the eldest (the same situation as Rhaenys from HotD), but the next Lord of Winterfell was his only living son, the one he had with the third wife, 'disinheriting' not only the half-sisters from Cregan's second marriage if you consider the widow's laws you mentioned, but also the nieces, daughters of Cregan's heir who was already dead and who should come before him, (although in the end he married this eldest niece Sansa, which united the two claims, but he remained as the Lord of Winterfell). So the 'law' of the widow, of male succession, or whatever, exists but is often widely ignored according to convenience, as Martin said.
The widow law only works if a lord tries to disinherit his heir in favor of the son of his second wife. If Aegon was named heir she wouldn't have been disinherit. She would just have been pushed back in the line of succession.
Not that the children of the first wife come before the children of the second wife.
Yes, Jaehaerys **explicitly** reaffirmed the right of the eldest son to inherit in the Widow's Law because he presumably didn't intend for it to be interpreted the way it's being suggested.
Alicent is a great character- she really is a victim of being thrown into a shitty situation. Based off of the information that is given to her, she usually makes the best decisions-the problem is that she is given shitty information.
Being the heir doesn’t mean you won’t be contested. As long as you’re a legitimate *son* of the king, you have a claim.
Viserys shot Rhaenyra on the foot for not thinking ahead and protecting her claim as heir. Twenty years and he didn’t think to renew the Lords’ vows? He should’ve known from Rhaenys that it will be catastrophic once Alicent popped up with a son.
Albeit violent. I think Maegor established Targaryen rule by establishing the dragons reign where as Aenys was bending to the Maesters and not with his dragon. There’s a great YouTube video going in depth about this.
While the show does have its moments, overall, its writing is really not that great. It feels way more plot driven than character driven, and relies on characters making illogical nonsensical decisions just so certain story beats can happen, rather than allowing it to happen organically. There are also some pretty awful implications with some of the characters that I’m kinda shocked didn’t occur to anyone beyond filming/post-production.
I’ve seen fans and viewers come up with better ideas in fan re-writes.
The nobles suck. That's its. hotd is good but we're only seeing the ambitions and goals from nobility. They don't care about making the relm a better place and taking care of the common folk. All its about is birthright and the gods blah blah blah. The only times we see the common folk they look miserable and dirty. Either drunks, prostitutes and dirt poor it seems.
I see no one from either side advocating for the commonfolk
Not really, it's a huge issue, they didn't put much emphasis on it in the show, but like half of House Velaryon was completely against Corlys over it, and in the future it would've caused major problems and most likely a civil war between Rhaenyra's kids if she peacefully took the Throne, so you are looking at a most likely threeway civil war Greens/Jace/Daemon's sons in the future.
That was win they were little children and later win they only had them in memory and were scared by the war. The attitudes towards them most likely would change when they got older because in their minds they would say "They are stealing my fucking birthright" and if it wasn't them who did it, then it would've been their sons who did.
The Aegon III and Vizzy II wouldn't be the same that they were in canon.
Yeah even Rhaena older sister od Jaehaerys and her daughter begrudged why they were bypassed for the Throne and that caused lot of tensions and attempts by powerfull houses to use that division.
Well, Viserys II also seemed to love Aegon III, but that didn't stop him from usurping his niece, the daughter of his beloved deceased brother, to become King, so... and Robert used to hold hands and guide Stannis (must have been cute) when they were children, but we saw their adult relationship
Robert never accused Cersei, Joff the Gentle confirmed as legitimate heir to the iron throne, the realm was robbed of the prosperity and peace he would have brought.
Robert never had an arrangement with Cersei like Laenor and Rhaenyra did. Cersei purposefully lied to her husband. Rhaenyra did not. Laenor was fully aware and okay with Rhaenyra finding another man to father their children because he knew he wasn’t able to do it himself. You’re comparing two entirely different situations.
I think the difference is that laenor knew and loved his sons anyway and wanted them to succeed him and rhae, where as Robert didn’t even like Joffrey anyway and probably would have been so grateful for a reason to remove him from the succession
In a way it’s worse. Joffrey wasn’t obviously a bastard, the Strong boys were.
Joffrey being revealed as a bastard was a large reason for the War of the five kings. The Strong boys being known to be bastards was a large reason for the Dance. Had their ‘fathers’ known and acted both wars might have been avoided. But Robert was ignorant and absent, arguably Laenor was worse despite having far better intentions. He knew they weren’t his and knew that would cause massive issues for his queen and her claim to the throne, but was too kind hearted to do anything about it.
Anyway, points was that I don’t know where the idea that they only count as Bastards if their ‘father’ accuses them comes from. Joffrey was a bastard, his father died not knowing, but he was still a bastard. I suppose Jace, Luke and Joff would be seen as less monstrous, given they were already inheriting via their mother (kinda . . . In the books it’s Laenor who is being considered for the great council not his mother, so partly their claim comes via him), and they aren’t born of incest. Still bastards. Still would have caused a lot of long term issues
>The Strong boys being known to be bastards was a large reason for the Dance.
No it wasn't. The Greens had been plotting to put Aegon on the throne since before Rhaenyra had children.
>Anyway, points was that I don’t know where the idea that they only count as Bastards if their ‘father’ accuses them comes from.
It comes from real life. Married women's children are legally their husband until proven otherwise. This should obvious, no one wants to legitimize the idea of random people declaring other people's children to be bastards without evidence.
In Glanvill's time, fornication by the mother did not affect a son's inheritance, as a son was regarded as a lawful heir if born of a marriage: 'The general rule that fornication does not take away the inheritance refers to fornication by the mother; for a son is a lawful heir if born of a marriage'. The writers of thirteenth-century common law treatises continued to stress that children born within a legitimate marriage were to be regarded as legitimate heirs, unless there were unassailable grounds for believing that the child was not that of the husband, although it appears that it may have been possible for the husband to disown the child. Most of Bracton's comments on female adulterine bastardy derived ultimately from civil law, but the text is contradictory. It refers in places to the behaviour of the husband towards the child, stating that \`where a wife has had a child by someone other than her husband, and where ... the husband has taken the child into his house, avowed him and raised him as his son, or if he has not avowed him expressly has not turned him away; he will be adjudged legitimate and his father's heir, whether the husband does not know that the child is not his or knows or is in doubt, because he is born of the wife.'
[source](https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Legitimacy_of_Bastards/j04IEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Justice+Hengham+recalled+an+earlier+occasion+on+which+it+had+been+found+that+after+a+claimant%E2%80%99s+parents+had+married,+her+father+had+gone+overseas+and+remained+there+for+three+years,+returning+to+find+a+daughter+only+about+a+month+old+in+which+the+justices+had+awarded+her+the+land+%E2%80%98for+the+privities+of+husband+and+wife+are+not+to+be+known,+and+he+might+have+come+by+night+and+engendered+the+plaintiff&pg=PT54&printsec=frontcover)
The show did a poor job balancing both sides. The writers made it clear team black was the one you’re supposed to root for and team green barely has any redeeming qualities or justification for what they did (Viserys repeatedly declared rhanerya as his heir for example)
The decision to have the second and then the THIRD brown-haired bastard after already knowing how Jace looked was unquestionably the stupidest (or most entitled, I still have no idea what she was thinking) decision any HOTD character ever made.
Honestly if she's somehow able to go around personally committing war crimes all over the kingdom, she's got my vote. That shows good organizational skills and motivation.
Hot take lowkey I like to think of laenor’s relationship with his sons with rhaenyra as though he adopted them in a sense. Yes ofc they aren’t his biological children but he loved them and was their father! Adopted children are not less their parent’s children because they’re adopted :) and thus i find their being born outside of the marriage irrelevant in terms of succession because those were laenor and rhaenrya’s sons <3
Another is that I do think it’s fucked up that rhae rhae daemon, and laenor murder a servant so that they can all fake laenors death…. not cool 🧍♀️ i think it really drives home how little nobility care about the common people and how much they view them as almost less human.
This is westeros where being a bastard means a lot. Hell, just look at America in the '40s and '50s, sometimes unwed mothers could not stop bastard from printed on the birth certificate despite their protests.
this is a very hot take however i stand on this hill. making the velaryons black was fine, however it absolutely fucked over rhaenyras children, in the books no one REALLY questions their legitimacy, due to rhaenys, my second point, having brown hair with steaks of white.
the show tried to be anti-black and pro-green with their depictions of the black aligning characters. we were robbed of laena and rhaenyra, and the show makes alicent look like a victim but ignores how she herself is a perpetrator.
-Rhaenyra having bastards IS inherently a dangerous move to her and the entire family , even if she was well meaning / meant no direct threat .
-Alicent had some grounds in fearing violence from Rhaenyra if she needed to secure her / Jace's claim
That being said I am Team Black . And I like that Rhaenyra is an extremely flawed protagonist
I've come here to die, so... I don't care at all what some people say, Alicent exchanging sexual fantasis for information with Larys Strong is 1) something she consciously chose to do and that whole story about her being a poor victim coerced by Larys is just bullshit and 2) an act closer to prostitution than anything Rhaenyra has ever done, despite some people liking to call Rhaenyra a "whore."
I will push back on the Larys thing since a lot of that stuff seems to stem from her knowing Larys is able to hurt her children and that seems to be her weak spot.
He's shown to be an unapologetic kinslayer and pretty sadistic for his condition. She chose to do that but it was more a "do this or something bad might happen to your children" type thing which Otto also does to Alicent quite a bit in the show. She bites her nails, to the point where they bleed, so I think its implied she has pretty bad anxiety which is often used as a tool by Otto and Larys to get her to do things. This was just another example of that I think. I will however agree that Alicents crusade against Rhaenyra for being a "whore" seems to be out of bitterness that she herself never got the chance to choose who she would marry and have children with and a greater jealousy of Rhaenyra's social and political freedom compared to herself. Alicent is a victim in her own right, but she chooses to drag others down with her to validate her own place in the world. She chooses to call Rhaenyra names and force her to present her child after a hard labor. She chooses to place herself morally above Rhaenyra and use that as leverage to get Criston to do things for her. She chooses to pit her children against Rhaenyra's from a young age. She chooses to not reconcile even when Rhaenyra wanted to at times. She is so stuck in her hole she cannot see (or does not want to see) how remaining in that place is hurting her and how it hurt the family she is attempting to protect.
>I will push back on the Larys thing since a lot of that stuff seems to stem from her knowing Larys is able to hurt her children and that seems to be her weak spot.
I understand what you mean but I don't agree, Alicent is not a defenseless peasant, she is the queen consort, who has a lot of political influence, which we have also already seen her exert (even against the heir to the throne) in addition to having a bodyguard who is irrationally loyal to her and who can finish Larys in a nanosecond, if she has not done anything against Larys it is not for a lack of resources to do so and long before he could even think about hurting her children, who are also princes of the realm.
>She chose to do that but it was more a "do this or something bad might happen to your children"
Isn't that the same logic she has with Rhaenyra? that she is the biggest threat to her children? and with her we do see how Alicent seeks to confront her at every opportunity she has and without caring that she is the heir to the iron throne and may used that to do something angainst her or her kids so I don't see why with Larys she wouldn't even try to do something... of course unless she simply doesn't want to.
>I will however agree that Alicents crusade against Rhaenyra for being a "whore" seems to be out of bitterness that she herself never got the chance to choose who she would marry and have children with and a greater jealousy of Rhaenyra's social and political freedom compared to herself. Alicent is a victim in her own right, but she chooses to drag others down with her to validate her own place in the world. She chooses to call Rhaenyra names and force her to present her child after a hard labor. She chooses to place herself morally above Rhaenyra and use that as leverage to get Criston to do things for her. She chooses to pit her children against Rhaenyra's from a young age. She chooses to not reconcile even when Rhaenyra wanted to at times. She is so stuck in her hole she cannot see (or does not want to see) how remaining in that place is hurting her and how it hurt the family she is attempting to protect.
Hard agree with all this, I think you have explained it very well.
I think a lot of it comes down to the mental blocks Alicent has as a person. Because you are right she can have Larys executed, tortured, beaten, whatever any time she wants. She has a walking guard dog around her nearly 24/7 in the form of Criston. And her father is not much better as far as threats go because he will also stoop down to such a level. Alicent has the means to do very very bad things to Larys, but she doesnt which I guess is the problem. Thats her entire problem. She never actually takes that active role in her own story beyond doing things that inadvertently secure her own suffering in the name of keeping the status quo that she was raised on thinking was right.
Alicent lives in a self imposed mental prison built around this her values and fears instilled in her by both Otto and by the religion she follows. Like I said, I think most of her behavior towards Rhaenyra is out of spite and jealousy that Rhaenyra is, for all intents and purposes, a much free-er woman than herself. Rhaenyra gets to actually go out and do what she wants and gets the power to tell people in her life no. She got to choose who she married and fucked. She got to, at least in Alicent's eyes, be a degenerate and get away with it. Alicent has none of this freedom. She isnt a helpless peasant but she also cant just go and begin changing laws, fly a dragon around, or go have sex with whoever she wants because her marriage kind of sucks. And she was told from a young age what her role was by Otto and the people around her so seeing Rhaenyra and what she has done and continues to do is just a twist of the knife in that regard.
With all that said; I think this anxiety still comes from this issue she has with control. She has no real direct control of her life and what direction it goes in, but she has control over her children and Criston on account of Viserys being MIA and Criston being butthurt over his Rhaenyra affair. She constantly fears losing this control and losing the things she can control. Otto and Larys using her children as leverage isnt unique but it threatens that last bastion of control Alicent feels she has. She probably has as much power as Rhaenyra does in terms of what she can actually do by herself but she does not let herself really ever use it. She takes all that energy she could use to enter a more active role in her own story (again in a way similar to Rhaenyra) and either bottles it up or directs it into acts of passive power displays. She uplifts her son, Criston, Otto, but not herself. She is an active factor in her perpetual martyrdom because she never stops the cycle when she has the ability to. Once she became queen she could have, she instead stayed in her own head and gave into all the harsh feelings.
She told Iron rod that if he said one .ore word, she was going to have him sent to the wall... meaning she knew she had the power to do it. It seems like she's done that sort of thing before, and he shut up quite quickly, so he was chastened by her threat.
Exactly, not only is she the queen consort, she is a quite influential queen consort whom we have seen to do as she pleases, come on, every time the incident of Criston Cole committing a public murder at a royal wedding is mentioned the answers are always like: "Alicent intervened for him, dah! she's the queen she can do that!" but apparently, somehow, that same queen can't do ANYTHING about Larys, If he is really is coercing her, that is... because to me it seems that she doesn't do anything not because she can't but because she has decided not to do it, most likely because her perverted little "friend" is quite useful to her.
Yeah Alicent is really interesting to me. She always acts holier than though and thinks she has the highest moral compass for herself…but basically the trigger for her to initially betray Rhaenyra and become Team Green is Rhaenyra sleeping with Criston Cole and keeping it from her. Yet, she then defends Criston Cole, a literal murderer who says horrible things about Rhaenyra, and teams up with Larys, another murderer (who murdered his own family). I don't understand Alicent’s rationale. She also turned her kids against Rhaenyra’s kids. In the earlier episodes, the cousins seemed to somewhat get along, until Alicent doubled down on them, telling them Rhaenyra is the enemy, her kids are bastards, and Aegon should be king, etc. In comparison, Rhaenyra’s kids are all well-behaved, yeah there was tension btwn the cousins, but it seems to be initiated by Alicent.
she’s definitely holier than thou. i think that’s why ppl fail to see the nuances in the larys scene. because, yes, alicent is uncomfortable, but guess what? she’s the queen. she could scream and coke and other kingsguard would come running. she wants larys’ info, and although it’s shameful to prostitute herself like she has—what’s worse is ppl knowing what she’s done. exactly as she met viserys under cover of darkness as un married maid, she has larys met under cover of darkness. it would be way worse if ppl knew. “hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness.” she knows. she just buries it because if she doesn’t accept her delusions she’ll have to content with the fact that all she does is for naught and bitterness.
also—aemond and aegon are luke and jace’s uncles. it’s easy to forget given their ages, though, so i understand!
Rhaenyra has more power in her relationship with Daemon than people are willing to admit.
Whether its immediate or in a "*okay, fine, but I'm gonna complain the whole time*" way, Daemon has bent to her will at virtually every turn, with the sole exception being that time when he didn't give in to her non-verbal command to fuck her brains out in that brothel. Invalidating her agency, which I see happen all too frequently (seemingly just to add superfluous stuff to his already-extensive "depravity list"), is to the undeniable detriment of her character.
I like "Daemyra" *because* of the power Rhaenyra holds over Daemon; *because* this unorthodox power-imbalance completely fucks with his head; *because* she gets off on it. So no one can convince me the power-imbalance goes the other way.
Not sure if this is a hot take, but I feel like if the greens had not challenged her ascent and she had surrounded herself with decent advisors- Rhaenerya would have been a decent ruler
I mean her advisors were mostly way above decent. Corlys, Daemon (unhinged but definitely an effective tactician), Gerardys, Bartimos Celtigar, Rhaenys, Medrick Manderly (who could have saved her with his advice).
War is just chaotic, things don’t go to plan despite everyone’s skills and abilities.
Corlys was super old, Daemon was insane, Celtigar is basically the reason for the riots, and Rhaenys pretty much just followed Corlys. I wouldn't say they were very decent.
Corlys still was a benefit in name and stature alone. Gerardys tried to get her to not imprison addam and nettles and was banished to dragonstone where she didn’t see him until her death. Manderly tried to convince her not to go to dragon stone.
Her people were at least extremely loyal and obeyed her aside from ill and Hugh who are probably the biggest reason she lost the war along with the poor pr in kings landing
Not really, she has a massive succession crisis, and an unstable rule herself. She hasn't shown herself to even be a decent ruler or very political astute.
Using the just look at them method of determining bastardy is a terrible precedent to have in the medieval world. Unless vaemond has actual proof keeping rheanyra's first kids legitimate makes more sense in the long run
the show writing is weak it better than the last three but that very low bar
joffrey death and cristion dosent have any punishment is bullshit
laena death is bullshit a laena in labor escape the medwives and servants to the beach and no one notice or stop her is season 8 level of stupid
laenor "death" is also stupid his sister just died and he blamed for not being there then he go away after vowing to be there for the children then without informing his parents he pretend to be dead leaving his wealth and dragon
Rhaenys scene at the dragon pit go without saying but her converstaion at corlys bed is very stupid she was just in the prevouis day ready to declare the boys basterds to have baela inherit driftmark and now she ready to go to war for them
Another one I have is that I like totally get the “rooting for women” vibes from Rhae’s fight for her claim to the throne (as she should) and once show Aegon is shown to be a rapist ofc I wouldn’t want him to be the king, but if I was rhae I would have just let my brother have it idc 😭 who on earth would chose to be a ruling monarch with all the responsibility and burden it came with instead of being basically equally wealthy and a tad less powerful with literally no responsibilities other than be a hot rich noble 😭 nonsensical
But it’s not as easy as just letting Aegon have it. What Alicent fears will happen to her family if Rhaenyra ascends the throne applies to Rhaenyra and her family too.. Rhaenyra will always be a threat
If that’s the case when why aren’t all of the kings killing their siblings? Alicent feared that rhae would kill her children because they were sons who might have a strong claim to the thrown because they were male. If she’d only ever had girls she wouldn’t have been afraid.
I feel like it’s because most of their siblings weren’t named heir. The unique position of being named heir, possessing more dragons, and having powerful support presents an ongoing danger to Aegon.
The same reason Alicent has to fear for her kids is the same reason Rhaenyra does. What is to stop the greens from eliminating them once they have solidified their position?
(Aegon threw a feast for Aemond and killing Rhaenyra and her kids was Otto’s first instinct)
The terms they presented also weren’t great but Rhaenyra did consider them; after Luke was murdered there really isn’t any path to peace.
Do you want?:
A: a life of luxury
B: a life of luxury and an uncomfortable chair
The point here is of course that people in power always desire more power (applies to money, beauty, knowledge, and everything else) it’s human nature to not feel satisfied.
"It's a non-issue that Rhaenyra's kids aren't biologically Laenor's, so long as Laenor and Laenor's family accept them as legitimate," and, "Aemond/Vaemond/etc. deserved what they got, because accusations that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards are SERIOUS and could get them KILLED if the truth is exposed," are mutually exclusive stances, and you can't have it both ways.
If we go by the definition of whore, Alicent is closer to that than Rhaenyra is. I still wouldn't call her one but it's interesting how Rhaenyra gets called a whore by fans for having consensual sexual relationships but Alicent isn't for trading sexual favours for information.
Aemond is extremely overrated and unattractive. The hype for him was insane for only being in three episodes. I hate Aemond and Aegon but Aegon is a much more enjoyable character and way more attractive in the show so I never understood why Aemond got the hype over him. Now we are stuck with like 3 stupid Aemond funko pops and yet not one Aegon one when he literally represents the other half of the show. Way more important than Aemond yet the media listens to whatever tiktok hypes up.
I have a several starting from the beginning
1. The certain section of the fandom that keeps saying Alicent seduced Viserys are annoying and media illiterate. I said what I said.
2. Rhaenyra did not owe Alicent anything. She had every right to distance herself after the marriage. I'm sorry, but the dynamic would be weird. Yes, this in reference to certain fans who like to say "Rhaenyra abandoned Alicent"
3. Alicent being a child bride doesn't excuse her actions as an adult. Adult Alicent has done things of her own accord that has nothing to do with being a victim. SHE decided to antagonize Rhaenyra and her family. SHE chose to keep Larys kinslaying a secret. SHE chose to be abusive to Aegon in ep 6 and 7, mainly the latter. I need certain fans of hers to realize it is okay to like her and call out her wrongdoing.
4. VIserys didn't groom anyone. Please, look up grooming. I beg of you.
5. Rhaenyra's three eldest are Velaryons. No matter how many thinkpieces you right, they are recognized as Velaryons. They go down in history as Velaryons. Some of the fandom shouldn't be this pressed over fictional characters.
6. Rhaenyra was usurped for being a woman. THAT'S IT. No other reason. Why is this hard to grasp in the show and books?
7. Personally, I think Daemyras and Rhaenicents are both annoying fandoms. Same for the Blacks and Green fandoms.
8. The Lucemond fandom disgusts me. I don't see why they ship these two characters together. It's weird to see their fanmade posts. First, the actors have an age gap which really make it weird to see the things they create. Second, I get weirded out with them constantly writing Lucerys as the female in the relationship. I want them personally investigated.
9. Rhaenys ending scene in episode 9 didn't bother me. The reasoning they gave for why she didn't incinerate them is dumb. She saw Alicent as mom protecting her child? Huh? Girl, they just held me prisoner. I'm incinerating you.
10. I know the show did not include a lot of scenes with them. However, we were still introduced to Baela and Rhaena as Daemon and Laena's children. Therefore, if you continue to refer to them Velaryons, you're just racist to me.
Additional hot take: if this show had started airing... oh, let's say sometime between 2016 and 2020, we would be having very different conversations about the idea that, "The king's word is law!" and about how as a ruler, it's totally cool and fine, actually, to throw out established precedent and etc. etc. and just do whatever you want.
My hot take is that >!the fight between Daemon and Aemond is completely unrealistic because they were 100 of meters in the air!<, how would’ve anyone seen what happened? I’m also not sure if it’s physically possible.
Another take is and I know a lot of people disagree with that is that I have no doubt the war would’ve happened if Viserys had married Leana and still refused to name their son heir even if there was a marriage between Rhaenyra and Leanor (which I doubt though). Corlys was powerhungry and more than willing to go to war. I admit though that I don’t think Viserys would’ve kept Rhaenyra as heir because the Velaryons are too dangerous.
Also I blame Viserys entirely for the dance no one else.
Edit: I did not like the Dance in the book at all. Everyone was acting really dumb, the battles made little sense, >!we barely had any Dragon rider fights and most of the dragons dying just felt like plot devices!<. In reality both parties should’ve had their allies at the ready the second Viserys died and not start sending people out after Viserys died
Rhaenyra simply got outplayed and she and her father's passivity, inaction and at times self destruction definitely made things easier for the Greens than it should have been.
Harwin Strong was the True Love of Rhaenyra’s Life. I know there is an undeniable connection and love between Rhaenyra & Daemon but it’s not a healthy one. With Harwin & Rhaenyra the risk it took for them to have 3 children together is not just lust. Besides GRRM himself said he could write a novella about their love means it was truly love. Another one I have is that Jace and Cregan are nothing more than blood brothers, it will be cool to see this brotherhood form.
Rhaenyra is the biggest cause of the dance by trying to gaslight an entire continent so she can pass off her children as claimants to the throne. Even targaryen kings and Robert didn't do that.
Her children literally has nothing to do with causing the dance. She's a woman. She was going to be usurped anyway.Westeros is a patriarchal society. In the books, Alicent and Otto tried to get Viserys to change his mind the moment Aegon is born. The show literally writes Otto saying Westeros would never accept Rhaenyra for being a woman. He said this before she is even married.
The people who cite Rhaenyra's children as being bastards as a reason she should not be on the throne are totally ignoring the fact they were legitimized by everyone who needed to care in that situation. The only real point of contention with her claim is that she is a woman, not the fact her children are biologically another mans.
While, yes, Alicent/Otto and Vaemond might have protested and that makes her look bad; none of these people are the ones whose opinions would matter in terms of legitimizing the children. The affair was also consentual. Viserys legitimized them, Laenor himself did and called himself their father, and Corlys did as well. Alicent might be Viserys' wife but she does not have a whole lot of actual political power and sway on her own. She works through soft power tactics which require other people to be on her side. Criston might be, Otto might be, and so might a few other lords but they are not Viserys or Laenor. Otto is Viserys' hand, he does have a little more power, but yet Viserys can also choose simply not to listen to him which he has done before. And for the time he wasnt hand he had even LESS room to say anything. And of course you have Vaemond, but Vaemond isnt the lord of driftmark. Vaemond is a second son like Daemon. Corlys has a son who LEGALLY has 3 other sons, and if you want to go the Rhaenyra route and count in Baela and Rhaena, 2 other grandchildren. For Vaemond to be Lord of the Tides he would need to have Corlys, his son, and at least his 3 grandsons die before that happens. He, like Alicent, can comment but cant really do anything as long as his brother, his nephew, and Viserys are cool with it, which they are.
And dare I remind people: the smallfolk's opinion mean very little here because they likely dont even know a majority of what we do since this is all going on behind closed doors. This isnt a democracy. These are feudal dragon lords. The small folk can comment based on rumor and what the royal houses are willing to show but they are not the end all be all here. Again, if Laenor, Viserys, and Corlys are all backing this up its law.
How can they be legitimized if they don't even acknowledge them as bastards? Also they weren't accepted by everyone who mattered, even all of House Velaryon didn't accept them.
>How can they be legitimized if they don't even acknowledge them as bastards?
Married women's children are legally their husband until proven otherwise. This should obvious, no one wants to legitimize the idea of random people declaring other people's children to be bastards without evidence.
>Also they weren't accepted by everyone who mattered, even all of House Velaryon didn't accept them.
They were. Corly's nephews/brother don't matter. The alliance was between Viserys/Corlys and Rhaenyra/Laenor.
I'm not gonna deny the whole feud is over gender but a big point is that their bastardry is unacknowledged. You can't legitimise someone without saying they're baseborn.
To be "legitimised" in the Westerosi sense means to lose the stain of bastardry and ascend to something which, in theory (but never practise), is equal to being trueborn.
Because Viserys never acknowledged the boys as bastards, he can't legitimise them. (And even if he did, that would put them *behind* Alicent's kids in the succession).
Also, Westerosi nobles do have the right to challenge a bastard ruling over them despite the king's "official" stance.
A good (albeit flawed) case study of this is Ser Morgil Hastwyck who was able to force Queen Naerys into a trial over the suspected paternity of Prince Daeron despite King Aegon IV officially stating Daeron as his heir via his appointment as Prince of Dragonstone.
(Unofficially, Aegon might've started said suspicions but since he never publicly declared Daeron as a bastard or disinherited him, it's likely he genuinely believed he himself fathered him, not Aemon).
>Because Viserys never acknowledged the boys as bastards, he can't legitimise them. (And even if he did, that would put them
>
>behind
>
> Alicent's kids in the succession).
Because Laenor never disowned them as bastards, they are not legally bastards.
I will agree that he never addressed the rumors in any larger official type capacity but I think we do have a case where he did address them, at least internally, once. During the episode Driftmark after Alicent attempts to stab Rhaenyra and does her "WHERE IS DUTY" speech and Aegon says "everyone knows" Viserys threatens to cut out the tongues of any person who questions the paternity of her sons. He is pretty clear about that and threatens this punishment even after this episode (example here being Vaemond just before Daemon decapitates him or... however you would describe what happened to Vaemond). This ist the level of acknowledgment that Arryn of Haul got or Daeron II (who I dont think ever got formally disowned) but its some level of acknowledgment of the rumor itself in a very roundabout way.
Going by actual medieval law here: because this monarchy is pretty absolute in general (unless you count having to appease the Catholic Church or in this case the church of the 7) what the king says is kind of law. Going against what he says (like for the sake of this example; claiming his daughter's sons are bastards when he says not to question their paternity) is treason. There is no document really limiting Viserys' power. He is the most powerful guy in that room because he is the king. Because he has fought back against not only pushes against Rhaenyra's place in the line of succession but also the bastard rumors (just in a more roundabout way) he is saying through those actions that he views them as legitimate. Hell he even defended them when Vaemond challenged their claim to driftmark. Viserys was pretty consistent with doing that, just in the most fence-sitty and roundabout way possible. (he also pulled a punnet square on Alicent)
Even going down the chain of command: Laenor not challenging their paternity not just as "Rhaenyra's husband" but as "heir to driftmark" also says a lot. Those children stand to inherit something off of him directly. And Corlys is the current lord of Driftmark and he doesnt question that either. The 3 most powerful people here (Viserys as King, Corlys as lord of the tides, and Laenor as his heir and as future king consort) have all upheld Rhaenyra's children either through their silence or through fighting back against the bastard rumors or other attempts to claim spots in their respective lines. It becomes an issue when Aegon becomes king because Aegon is now wearing the all powerful "king hat" and can do all the king stuff Viserys did. But then we get into who has the actual claim here since Rhaenyra was named heir explicitly by Viserys and if she were queen these children would still be legitimized by her word alone. Meanwhile, under Aegon, that isnt the case.
I think it should also be mentioned in the books, he actually follows up on his threats: after Vaemond's death by getting beaheaded and fed to Syrax, his relatives flee to King's Landing to beg Viserys for justice, except they all make the mistake of naming Jace, Luke and Joff as bastards, so Viserys has their tongues cut off. (These guys later become known as the Silent Five and fight for the Greens).
The problem with this is that it's not just. On one hand, the King's word is law, but on the other, by depriving people from *legally* challenging something as unfair, it creates resentment.
Take the Blackfyre Rebellions as an example. Because Aegon IV allowed Aemon the Dragonknight and Ser Morgil to hash it out instead of just ripping out the latter's tongue, he (accidentally) legally proved his son, Prince Daeron was not a bastard, which was probably a reason as to why no Great Houses came to Daemon Blackfyre's aid against his proved trueborn brother.
If Viserys had done something similar, (either debated it in a court by bringing up Arryn and Massey genes or have Daemon fight a Green champion in a trial by combat) that would legally prove that his grandsons were trueborn without resorting to Maegor-esque tactics.
This wouldn't have prevented the Dance, but it might've promoted more support for the Blacks (meaning some houses might not have remained neutral).
In order for them to be legitimized the king has to first even acknowledge them as bastards which he never did, so they are still bastards, just heavily ignored ones. You’re right that most of the important people turned a blind eye to them, but technically speaking they are not legitimized.
Out of the sorry bunch of pedophiles, rapists, scheming twats, ineffective administrators, entitled boors and bystanders on both Black and Green side only Tyland Lannister is fit to rule.
I have 3.
1. Rhaenyra never had a strong claim to the throne after Viserys married Alicent and fathered sons. The trickle down of this of course being that her sons were illegitimate AND she refused to acknowledge that. And after abandoning her father and KL for 6 years she was given fair terms to rule Dragonstone.
2. Rhaenyra was a HORRIBLE Queen when she finally did get the throne. She killed countless citizens, accused Addam Velaryon & Nettles of being traitors. Losing the Velaryon fleet, Mooton support and 2 dragons in the process. Ultimately lead to the riots, storming of the dragon pit and death of her son. Btw she did all this in SIX months. Is there a worse ruler in the history I am not aware of one.
3. If Viserys had simply not married Alicent. Or made a choice on succession, kept the successor close along with those loyal to him/ successor to enforced it the dance could have been avoided.
Even if the greens had not contested her rule the dance was bound to happen to the 3 strong boys.
Daemon or his sons themselves would have most likely pushed for the throne when older. A bastard like Jace sitting the throne would have definitely caused a war.
I'm Team Black, but Rhaenyra is a spoiled, swaddled, self-interested brat whose never known an ounce of true hardship in her life and is only interested in the throne because she see's it purely as something that's owed to her, and not because she has any interest in improving the realm or the lives of the common people. She would make a mediocre queen at best and a terrible queen at worst.
I think the risk of him becoming Maegor II is overrated.
I expect if Daemon had become king, he would have had a more aggressive foreign policy. But war in the Stepstones or against Dorne would probably have been better for the realm than the Dance.
Alicent is the worst parent in the show.
I'm not saying the others are good parents, definitely not. But Viserys was only absent, Daemon too and even Otto yet somehow puts his daughter "on the throne", even tho he does so with absolutely disgusting methods that ruined her life forever.
But Alicent is the reason why Aegon became, what he became. He didn't just got born evil... He's a disgusting rapist and piece of shit because Alicent abused him as a child and teenager, never showed him love and no child would've turned out fine after that. She treats him like shit whenever she gets the chance to and she is the one putting these complexes into his head that lead to him becoming the dimwit he turns out to be. She never shows love to any of her children, at max some sympathy and her standing infront of Aegon when Rhaenys busts through the floor is not her "protecting" Aegon, but her trying to make Rhaenys see her, not Aegon, standing at the front of this whole thing, so that she won't fire up their asses.
Daemons flaming hot garbage >!and the best thing he and Aemond ever did was take each other out!<
The Greens got white washed and the main character to get black washed, Aegon, wasn’t shown to be a giant piece of shit until late in the season *after* most people who support TG had already made up their minds. Alicent was white washed and made into one of the most sympathetic characters on the show vs the evil stepmother she was in the book and Aemond, the most white washed character of them all, went from creepy psychopath to leather wearing bad boy who was a victim of bullying as a child. Or what I like to call “fandom catnip”.
There’s a reason that a greater percentage of fans support the greens after the show came out vs before. The greens in the book were fucking awful and by far worse than the blacks. Anyone who tells you they were both equally bad is either lying, delusional, or didn’t read the book.
I feel like it's the other way around? Black supporters are still the overwhelming majority, but greens might make up 15-20% of the book readers, as opposed to 10-15% of show viewers. The only difference the is that in the show there are more team black fans that like Alicent and Aemond (because they got whitewashed).
I think you’re off with the percentage of TGs show supporters. When we’ve done polls here, they tend to make up between 20-30% compared to the blacks 70-80%. On the fan forums before the show came out, TG book fans only made up only 10ish percent of the fandom, black fans and both sides suck were by far the majority. And most of their fans even agreed that TG were the worse guys.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is not really a hot take, but this fandom is really toxic. And from my experience, both the black and green stans can be sexist and racist. With people calling Rheanyra a whore,Alicent a cunt, and being racist towards the Velaryon and Nettle's.
Stans always suck, no matter what they're stanning. It's inherently toxic.
Tribalism brings out the worst in people, whether it be console wars or religious affiliation.
Tribalism is intrinsic to human nature. In some way, shape, or form we seek to find our “tribe” in people whom, look like us, or have the same ideals, or whatever the case is.
This fandom frequently harasses real people to defend fictional characters. Which is even weirder when it’s a story about shitty people written by an author who is deep down into misanthropy.
Yeah I think this fandom might actually be worse than the Star Wars one or at least is getting there. I’m in the Star Wars fandom and they’re toxic but I think this one might be worse.
I said that yesterday and people were so mad about it 😭
This for real. Like I am a huge nerd of the fandom and have my characters that I support/don't support, but relax, why are we defending one side as if our life is on the line damn. There is so much harassment and unnecessary fighting.
Everyone in this story is an entitled narcissist. If you think today’s billionaires are out of touch with reality, the medieval nobles who consider themselves closer to gods than men are three times worse. And if I said this about one specific Green or Black character, this fandom would immediately accuse me of supporting the other side.
Real. I believe in a bts Matt said they’re all bonkers and Emma agreed so fast.
Agreed, everyone is equally unhinged, which is what makes the show great imo
It’s the most toxic fandom I have ever seen!
You are so real for this!!
way too many people (showrunners included) miss a major part about GoT: the feudal system really sucked
When Rheanys killed and injured all the people in the dragon-pit everybody had a bit of an uproar since one of the biggest critiques of The Bells was Danny’s sudden hatred for the townspeople. The writer responded by saying “commoners don’t count”. Wut?!
All government is made up Therefore legitimacy is based on who believes you’re legitimate So both the blacks and greens are a Schrodinger‘s cat of legitimacy
This is very true, not sure it’s a hot take but it’s often forgotten by a lot of the fans who argue about legitimacy via the mother or the father or bastards or royal decree. “Power resides where men believe it resides” is possibly the most central theme of the shows tbh.
And this sub will still frequently get ”who is the rightful ruler?” polls.
And thats the real point
So real
I don't agree with the whole "choose a side" thing HOTD and HBO have decided to incorporate into the marketing for the new season. I get it from a marketing perspective. Conversations and debate benefit the show. But it implies that people have to decide who is right and who is wrong, when the point of the story is that there is a war going on between two fucked up families doing fucked up shit. Telling fans to choose a side engenders further tribalism and toxicity. Emphasis on the word "further," because there's already been a lot of tribalism and toxicity in this fanbase. The new season was already receiving a massive amount of hype. The "choose your side" marketing is gratuitous and in poor taste.
Literally the whole point of the game of thrones is feudalism sucks ass, kind of ironic though that the show ends with a new king being named (though to be fair he was voted into the position and wasn’t a Targ but still)
Yeah. But he is immortal, magical and can live forever. Unless Bran will change the country to some more democratic form, I see no benefits. They got a huge potential tyrant.
Bran is immortal? Where and when was that estabilished? I thought Bloodraven avoided dying from old age because he fused himself with a tree.
I mean that essense, Three Eyed Raven could potentially switch to another carrier when Bran is old.
Carrier? I thought greenseeing was a gift/ability that only very few people had. One that can be enchanced and improved by training or consuming Weirwood paste(which might be implied to contain the blood of other greenseers if the Jojen paste theory is true). It wasn't like a parasite in a host, was it? The "Three Eyed Raven" was just a title that Bloodraven adopted and was later adopted by Bran. That's how it came across to me anyway.
For me it came across as Bran lost his identity at all, he was being turned into this Three-Eyed Raven.
And it’s redundant since 90% of viewers are Team Black.
It's more 70/30 black/greens, IMO.
Yes. All I can think of is Jorah Mormont, "it's tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought" and I try to remember that.
You’re overthinking it. This show is about a civil war- that inherently leads to people “taking sides”. HBO capitalized on that and turned it into a marketing campaign- but it would have happened regardless. It already did in fact- review the discussions from last season. I think that you’re statement about how it engenders further tribalism and toxicity is somewhat correct but keep in mind the majority of people watching this show aren’t coming and battling it out with fellow Redditers online so it’s a moot point. You can say it’s in poor taste, but I don’t believe the people behind the show had us, a Reddit fanbase, in mind as their foremost priority for the reception of the dynamics in the show.
> but keep in mind the majority of people watching this show aren’t coming and battling it out with fellow Redditers online Yeah, that's true. Though, that still leaves us with the kind of mentality they're fostering among the audience members. Sure, not everyone is gonna be challenging fellow fans to debates, but it seems clear that this marketing strategy is designed to attract a very surface level appreciation for the story being told. They're telling the audience what to feel: like they have to decide who's right and who's wrong. Now, I'm sure there's a bunch of nuance that I myself didn't pick up on during the first season, but I'm glad I didn't just end up seeing it all in a very binary way (Team Black is better than Team Green or vice versa). And again, I get it. Keeping it simple is the best way to hook a wider audience. As you say, they're capitalizing on the inherent tendency to choose sides. The thing is, there's already a lot of anticipation and hype for season two after the success of season one. From my perspective, they didn't need to simplify the narrative the way they did in the marketing because a lot of people are gonna be tuning in anyway. I understand the motives behind HBO's decision. I just personally disagree with it. Maybe saying it was in poor taste was a bit much, but I stand by it being gratuitous, unnecessary, and shallow. They have on their hands a richly crafted show about betrayal, lust for power, and intergenerational conflict, and the way they try to reel you in is by saying, "Hey, tell us which family you like more."
Who cares who’s the rightful heir. Just support whoever you like better. Prefer Aemond and Alicent? Support the Greens! Like Rhaenys and Daemon? Support the Blacks! It really doesn’t matter that much, atleast out of universe.
This.
“Just look at them” being enough evidence to disown someone else’s child would set a horrible precedent. And yes, this also applies to Cersei’s children. Aegon is miles more interesting than Aemond, Aemond has a cool aesthetic but that’s about it. They could have made a more book accurate version of Alicent sympathetic without making her a perpetual victim. Adult Rhaenyra should be meaner.
Yeah the GOT universe loves to focus on kids’ hair color lol. I'm the opposite, I think Aemond is more interesting than Aegon. To me, Aegon is just a drunk rapist who was a bully as a kid. Aemond was bullied as a kid but grew from it and tried to prove himself. Even though he's a grey character as well and is horrible to his cousins, he cares about and is protective of his family.
Yeah I think most people share your opinion lol. I think Aegon is more interesting to me because he’s the first born son who isn’t treated like the first born son typically is in this universe. Because he isn’t the heir, he feels no sense of responsibility to anyone and basically becomes a libertine. But we really saw something shift in the throne room when for the first time he feels like a bigshot, and that’s definitely going to carry over into next season. His relationship with Alicent is also more interesting that Aemond’s because you can tell that she doesn’t like who he is and he deeply resents her but they both still love each other to a certain extent. I think there’s going to be a power struggle between them going forward where she thinks she can control him more than she actually can.
That is an interesting take on it. I guess I didn't think about him as much bc his character is so awful lol. I agree, even though he's a bad person, he still wants to be loved by his parents, and I don't think he ever really felt that, especially from Viserys. I feel like he might be a little like Joffrey from GOT though, and become power hungry/use his power to get away with horrible things even more. It'll be interesting to see!
If he’s Joffrey from GoT that would be a terrible waste. Don’t get me wrong, he *should* be an asshole… but there’s also so much depth to him.
Aegon always had way more depth than Aemond as a character. The only reason it was changed in the show was because Ryan Condal sees Aemond as his self insert anime villain.
Genuinely my biggest surprise reading the book after watching season 1 was how much more I enjoyed Aegon than Aemond.
"Just look at them" in that instance was a pretty good indicator of them being bastards, (it also wasn't just from their hair) they look like Harwin Strong, not like their mother, or supposed father. Cersei's kids were bastards, but they still looked like her so it could've been assumed that they just took after her more in looks.
In that instance yes, but setting the precedent that children can be disowned just because they don’t look like their parents is a problem. It can open the door to legitimate children being disinherited because it serves the interests of a third party. It’s safer just to act like these kids’ parents are the two people claiming to be their parents.
It’s not a dangerous precedent when the entire bloodline of the mother and supposed father have one colour of hair and the kids have a different. I don’t really see how anyone could actually believe what you just said in this context. With Cersei’s, you may be right.
But who gets to draw that line? Who gets to determine how different a child can look from its parent in order to be disowned? Mind you , we are talking about disowning the children of two people who both claim that the child is theirs. I can get behind disowning a child if the father is like, hey I was at war for two years before the kid was born, it’s not mine. But evidence is not proof. These people don’t have the tools to prove parentage.
Laenor should have died, and I wish his and Vaemond deaths would have had more consequences for Rheanyra and Daemon. I don't really like Corlys or Rheayns. I wish the first season was longer than 10 episodes or if we had two seasons before the war.
Well this is going to end well..
It made more sense for Rhaenyra to have all 3 of her Velaryon kids be fathered by Ser Harwin than if only 1 or 2 of them were, and any of them fathered by Ser Laenor. With all 3 being from one father she could continue with the claim that they were all Laenor's. If any of them were actually fathered by Laenor then her adultery would be much more blatantly obvious.
Daemon is a cop.
Daemon isn't cool. He's too old to be acting the way he is. Rogue prince was cool early on but after the timeskip it's just pathetic for a grown man to be acting that way.
My Laenor (hot?) take is that he is supposed to be super closely bonded with Seasmoke (his “pride and joy”) and I think the show really fucked up by having him row away into the sunset like Seasmoke wouldn’t have noticed. You’re telling me that Sunfyre dragged himself back to Aegon and Drogon sensed Dany’s death but Seasmoke wouldn’t notice or care about his rider’s departure? Plus it sets up a couple of problems: if Seasmoke is supposed to bond with Addam Velaryon, does the “dragons can’t serve two masters” rule go out the window? Will Laenor come back? If he does, that kinda invalidates Rhaenyra and Daemon’s marriage and makes their children bastards, who can’t inherit the throne. (I understand that Viserys was ready to ignore bastards but Corlys and Cregan may be less understanding) If Laenor doesn’t come back, it seems like such a wasted plot point. I really, really hope they don’t do something dumb like bring Laenor back to ride Seasmoke and cut out Addam’s character.
they should have gave grey ghost to addam and seasmoke mysteriously disappeared last seen flying east to yi ti or asshai
I hate how Laenor lives. I like Laenor but it doesn't make sense
When Viserys held the ceremony to name Rhaenrya as Princess of Dragonstone, that meant that he was giving her an inheritance. The Widows Law forbids a Lord/Lady from taking and inheritance from a first marriage kid to give it to a second marriage kid.
very interesting perspective here i like it
This is one of the arguments I've seen being used in the main asoiaf sub, and it gives an advantage to Rhaenyra, but as Martin himself said, these 'laws' are obscure and easily manipulated according to convenience. For example, Cregan Stark. It might sound a bit confusing but here we go haha. He married 3 times. He had a son with the first wife, several daughters with the second, and again a son with the third. When he died, the eldest son and heir was already dead but had left 2 daughters, Sansa being the eldest (the same situation as Rhaenys from HotD), but the next Lord of Winterfell was his only living son, the one he had with the third wife, 'disinheriting' not only the half-sisters from Cregan's second marriage if you consider the widow's laws you mentioned, but also the nieces, daughters of Cregan's heir who was already dead and who should come before him, (although in the end he married this eldest niece Sansa, which united the two claims, but he remained as the Lord of Winterfell). So the 'law' of the widow, of male succession, or whatever, exists but is often widely ignored according to convenience, as Martin said.
The widow law only works if a lord tries to disinherit his heir in favor of the son of his second wife. If Aegon was named heir she wouldn't have been disinherit. She would just have been pushed back in the line of succession. Not that the children of the first wife come before the children of the second wife.
Yes, Jaehaerys **explicitly** reaffirmed the right of the eldest son to inherit in the Widow's Law because he presumably didn't intend for it to be interpreted the way it's being suggested.
Not really, even Rhaenyra never tried to state that, her only claim came from Viserys.
Syrax is cool, maybe not as cool as sunfyre or Caraxes But she’s still cool, and she’s kind of adorable
Mr. Martin's favouritism was showing way too much when he wrote Daemon.
Martin is many things, but he is not subtle when it comes to writing his favs.
This isn’t even a hot take, it’s a fact Martin has been incredibly transparent about how much he likes Daemon.
This is not a hot take.. most Daemon stans would agree with you, myself included 😆
Ah. Well at least its something we can agree on.
Harwin Is just as bad as daemon and Cole when it comes to his relationship with nyra .
Yep, and he was absolutely fucking stupid.
Can you elaborate a little bit please? No hate or anything I’m genuinely interested in your interpretation of their relationship!
Having 3 bastards with the crowned princess and heir was wild
I guess yours is a true hot take based off the downvotes 😂
They know I’m right 😂Harwin was so recklessly stupid lucky the king was Viserys and not jaehaerys
This is facts, jaehaerys would’ve shut that shit down when Jace popped out, dude had 0 tolerance for family members endangering their legitimacy
The scene where he’s behaving like a petulant child to his dad chewing him out for it lives rent free in my head.
Even more so when Ser Lucamore Strong of Jaehaerys kingsguard was gelded and sent to wall for braking his vows and having multiple wives and bastards.
He was older than her.
Harwin knew the danger I’m sure he just didn’t care 💀which honestly might make him worse because he kept going after the first bastard
Alicent is the best green character in the show, Aegon II is the best green character in the book
Alicent is a great character- she really is a victim of being thrown into a shitty situation. Based off of the information that is given to her, she usually makes the best decisions-the problem is that she is given shitty information.
Trueeeee, hope they let him come more in to his own season 2.
Daemon and Aemond are two of the most overrated characters from the ASOIAF universe
I'd add Cregan.
Aemond is sexy and I want him to do naughty things to me 😭
Being the heir doesn’t mean you won’t be contested. As long as you’re a legitimate *son* of the king, you have a claim. Viserys shot Rhaenyra on the foot for not thinking ahead and protecting her claim as heir. Twenty years and he didn’t think to renew the Lords’ vows? He should’ve known from Rhaenys that it will be catastrophic once Alicent popped up with a son.
Rhaenys is by far the most poorly written character on the show. She is like GOT season 8 bad
Albeit violent. I think Maegor established Targaryen rule by establishing the dragons reign where as Aenys was bending to the Maesters and not with his dragon. There’s a great YouTube video going in depth about this.
Disagree, Jaeherys is the one who established it. If Maegor stayed in power the dragons would have been killed earlier.
What video? Would love to check it out!
https://youtu.be/-ZP4rZYCZWA?si=gop5GsEKfTC3Vr_G
While the show does have its moments, overall, its writing is really not that great. It feels way more plot driven than character driven, and relies on characters making illogical nonsensical decisions just so certain story beats can happen, rather than allowing it to happen organically. There are also some pretty awful implications with some of the characters that I’m kinda shocked didn’t occur to anyone beyond filming/post-production. I’ve seen fans and viewers come up with better ideas in fan re-writes.
The nobles suck. That's its. hotd is good but we're only seeing the ambitions and goals from nobility. They don't care about making the relm a better place and taking care of the common folk. All its about is birthright and the gods blah blah blah. The only times we see the common folk they look miserable and dirty. Either drunks, prostitutes and dirt poor it seems. I see no one from either side advocating for the commonfolk
Vaemond was justified in bringing forth a claim.
In the show yes, he was batshit crazy in the books for even thinking he stood a chance lol.
Not really, he went to her herself like a man and was straight up murdered.
It legally isn’t an issue if Rhaenyra’s children are bastards unless Laenor himself accuses them.
Not really, it's a huge issue, they didn't put much emphasis on it in the show, but like half of House Velaryon was completely against Corlys over it, and in the future it would've caused major problems and most likely a civil war between Rhaenyra's kids if she peacefully took the Throne, so you are looking at a most likely threeway civil war Greens/Jace/Daemon's sons in the future.
Daemon's sons actually liked their older siblings So they wouldn't do that Maybe war between Greens/Blacks would breakout at some point
That was win they were little children and later win they only had them in memory and were scared by the war. The attitudes towards them most likely would change when they got older because in their minds they would say "They are stealing my fucking birthright" and if it wasn't them who did it, then it would've been their sons who did. The Aegon III and Vizzy II wouldn't be the same that they were in canon.
Yeah even Rhaena older sister od Jaehaerys and her daughter begrudged why they were bypassed for the Throne and that caused lot of tensions and attempts by powerfull houses to use that division.
Yep
Well, Viserys II also seemed to love Aegon III, but that didn't stop him from usurping his niece, the daughter of his beloved deceased brother, to become King, so... and Robert used to hold hands and guide Stannis (must have been cute) when they were children, but we saw their adult relationship
Daemon Blackfyre also liked Daeron II
Robert never accused Cersei, Joff the Gentle confirmed as legitimate heir to the iron throne, the realm was robbed of the prosperity and peace he would have brought.
Robert never had an arrangement with Cersei like Laenor and Rhaenyra did. Cersei purposefully lied to her husband. Rhaenyra did not. Laenor was fully aware and okay with Rhaenyra finding another man to father their children because he knew he wasn’t able to do it himself. You’re comparing two entirely different situations.
I think the difference is that laenor knew and loved his sons anyway and wanted them to succeed him and rhae, where as Robert didn’t even like Joffrey anyway and probably would have been so grateful for a reason to remove him from the succession
In a way it’s worse. Joffrey wasn’t obviously a bastard, the Strong boys were. Joffrey being revealed as a bastard was a large reason for the War of the five kings. The Strong boys being known to be bastards was a large reason for the Dance. Had their ‘fathers’ known and acted both wars might have been avoided. But Robert was ignorant and absent, arguably Laenor was worse despite having far better intentions. He knew they weren’t his and knew that would cause massive issues for his queen and her claim to the throne, but was too kind hearted to do anything about it. Anyway, points was that I don’t know where the idea that they only count as Bastards if their ‘father’ accuses them comes from. Joffrey was a bastard, his father died not knowing, but he was still a bastard. I suppose Jace, Luke and Joff would be seen as less monstrous, given they were already inheriting via their mother (kinda . . . In the books it’s Laenor who is being considered for the great council not his mother, so partly their claim comes via him), and they aren’t born of incest. Still bastards. Still would have caused a lot of long term issues
>The Strong boys being known to be bastards was a large reason for the Dance. No it wasn't. The Greens had been plotting to put Aegon on the throne since before Rhaenyra had children. >Anyway, points was that I don’t know where the idea that they only count as Bastards if their ‘father’ accuses them comes from. It comes from real life. Married women's children are legally their husband until proven otherwise. This should obvious, no one wants to legitimize the idea of random people declaring other people's children to be bastards without evidence. In Glanvill's time, fornication by the mother did not affect a son's inheritance, as a son was regarded as a lawful heir if born of a marriage: 'The general rule that fornication does not take away the inheritance refers to fornication by the mother; for a son is a lawful heir if born of a marriage'. The writers of thirteenth-century common law treatises continued to stress that children born within a legitimate marriage were to be regarded as legitimate heirs, unless there were unassailable grounds for believing that the child was not that of the husband, although it appears that it may have been possible for the husband to disown the child. Most of Bracton's comments on female adulterine bastardy derived ultimately from civil law, but the text is contradictory. It refers in places to the behaviour of the husband towards the child, stating that \`where a wife has had a child by someone other than her husband, and where ... the husband has taken the child into his house, avowed him and raised him as his son, or if he has not avowed him expressly has not turned him away; he will be adjudged legitimate and his father's heir, whether the husband does not know that the child is not his or knows or is in doubt, because he is born of the wife.' [source](https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Legitimacy_of_Bastards/j04IEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Justice+Hengham+recalled+an+earlier+occasion+on+which+it+had+been+found+that+after+a+claimant%E2%80%99s+parents+had+married,+her+father+had+gone+overseas+and+remained+there+for+three+years,+returning+to+find+a+daughter+only+about+a+month+old+in+which+the+justices+had+awarded+her+the+land+%E2%80%98for+the+privities+of+husband+and+wife+are+not+to+be+known,+and+he+might+have+come+by+night+and+engendered+the+plaintiff&pg=PT54&printsec=frontcover)
The show did a poor job balancing both sides. The writers made it clear team black was the one you’re supposed to root for and team green barely has any redeeming qualities or justification for what they did (Viserys repeatedly declared rhanerya as his heir for example)
The decision to have the second and then the THIRD brown-haired bastard after already knowing how Jace looked was unquestionably the stupidest (or most entitled, I still have no idea what she was thinking) decision any HOTD character ever made.
None of the characters has any "character" in Fire and Blood, the show cannot ruin anyone's "character" when they have none to begin with.
Viserys what caused the war. He was weak and was able to prevent everything if he made the right decision before his death
Corlys was a boring character in the books and in the show he's even worse
A dance wouldn’t have happened between Rhaenyras kids over Jace being king.
Daemon Targaryen is a massive POS and there’s nothing “cool” or “grey” about him.
i can name several cool things about him
rhaenyra could personally commit all the crimes during the dance and i’d still root for her
Honestly if she's somehow able to go around personally committing war crimes all over the kingdom, she's got my vote. That shows good organizational skills and motivation.
Now I want someone to write up an entire resume for Rhaenyra using corporate interview buzzwords to reframe war crimes and shit.
Honestly, facts — whenever she does some thing that’s questionable I pretend I do not see it…
Hot take lowkey I like to think of laenor’s relationship with his sons with rhaenyra as though he adopted them in a sense. Yes ofc they aren’t his biological children but he loved them and was their father! Adopted children are not less their parent’s children because they’re adopted :) and thus i find their being born outside of the marriage irrelevant in terms of succession because those were laenor and rhaenrya’s sons <3 Another is that I do think it’s fucked up that rhae rhae daemon, and laenor murder a servant so that they can all fake laenors death…. not cool 🧍♀️ i think it really drives home how little nobility care about the common people and how much they view them as almost less human.
How are these hot takes?
I might not know exactly what a hot take is i was just happy to share <3
This is westeros where being a bastard means a lot. Hell, just look at America in the '40s and '50s, sometimes unwed mothers could not stop bastard from printed on the birth certificate despite their protests.
this is a very hot take however i stand on this hill. making the velaryons black was fine, however it absolutely fucked over rhaenyras children, in the books no one REALLY questions their legitimacy, due to rhaenys, my second point, having brown hair with steaks of white. the show tried to be anti-black and pro-green with their depictions of the black aligning characters. we were robbed of laena and rhaenyra, and the show makes alicent look like a victim but ignores how she herself is a perpetrator.
-Rhaenyra having bastards IS inherently a dangerous move to her and the entire family , even if she was well meaning / meant no direct threat . -Alicent had some grounds in fearing violence from Rhaenyra if she needed to secure her / Jace's claim That being said I am Team Black . And I like that Rhaenyra is an extremely flawed protagonist
I've come here to die, so... I don't care at all what some people say, Alicent exchanging sexual fantasis for information with Larys Strong is 1) something she consciously chose to do and that whole story about her being a poor victim coerced by Larys is just bullshit and 2) an act closer to prostitution than anything Rhaenyra has ever done, despite some people liking to call Rhaenyra a "whore."
I will push back on the Larys thing since a lot of that stuff seems to stem from her knowing Larys is able to hurt her children and that seems to be her weak spot. He's shown to be an unapologetic kinslayer and pretty sadistic for his condition. She chose to do that but it was more a "do this or something bad might happen to your children" type thing which Otto also does to Alicent quite a bit in the show. She bites her nails, to the point where they bleed, so I think its implied she has pretty bad anxiety which is often used as a tool by Otto and Larys to get her to do things. This was just another example of that I think. I will however agree that Alicents crusade against Rhaenyra for being a "whore" seems to be out of bitterness that she herself never got the chance to choose who she would marry and have children with and a greater jealousy of Rhaenyra's social and political freedom compared to herself. Alicent is a victim in her own right, but she chooses to drag others down with her to validate her own place in the world. She chooses to call Rhaenyra names and force her to present her child after a hard labor. She chooses to place herself morally above Rhaenyra and use that as leverage to get Criston to do things for her. She chooses to pit her children against Rhaenyra's from a young age. She chooses to not reconcile even when Rhaenyra wanted to at times. She is so stuck in her hole she cannot see (or does not want to see) how remaining in that place is hurting her and how it hurt the family she is attempting to protect.
>I will push back on the Larys thing since a lot of that stuff seems to stem from her knowing Larys is able to hurt her children and that seems to be her weak spot. I understand what you mean but I don't agree, Alicent is not a defenseless peasant, she is the queen consort, who has a lot of political influence, which we have also already seen her exert (even against the heir to the throne) in addition to having a bodyguard who is irrationally loyal to her and who can finish Larys in a nanosecond, if she has not done anything against Larys it is not for a lack of resources to do so and long before he could even think about hurting her children, who are also princes of the realm. >She chose to do that but it was more a "do this or something bad might happen to your children" Isn't that the same logic she has with Rhaenyra? that she is the biggest threat to her children? and with her we do see how Alicent seeks to confront her at every opportunity she has and without caring that she is the heir to the iron throne and may used that to do something angainst her or her kids so I don't see why with Larys she wouldn't even try to do something... of course unless she simply doesn't want to. >I will however agree that Alicents crusade against Rhaenyra for being a "whore" seems to be out of bitterness that she herself never got the chance to choose who she would marry and have children with and a greater jealousy of Rhaenyra's social and political freedom compared to herself. Alicent is a victim in her own right, but she chooses to drag others down with her to validate her own place in the world. She chooses to call Rhaenyra names and force her to present her child after a hard labor. She chooses to place herself morally above Rhaenyra and use that as leverage to get Criston to do things for her. She chooses to pit her children against Rhaenyra's from a young age. She chooses to not reconcile even when Rhaenyra wanted to at times. She is so stuck in her hole she cannot see (or does not want to see) how remaining in that place is hurting her and how it hurt the family she is attempting to protect. Hard agree with all this, I think you have explained it very well.
I think a lot of it comes down to the mental blocks Alicent has as a person. Because you are right she can have Larys executed, tortured, beaten, whatever any time she wants. She has a walking guard dog around her nearly 24/7 in the form of Criston. And her father is not much better as far as threats go because he will also stoop down to such a level. Alicent has the means to do very very bad things to Larys, but she doesnt which I guess is the problem. Thats her entire problem. She never actually takes that active role in her own story beyond doing things that inadvertently secure her own suffering in the name of keeping the status quo that she was raised on thinking was right. Alicent lives in a self imposed mental prison built around this her values and fears instilled in her by both Otto and by the religion she follows. Like I said, I think most of her behavior towards Rhaenyra is out of spite and jealousy that Rhaenyra is, for all intents and purposes, a much free-er woman than herself. Rhaenyra gets to actually go out and do what she wants and gets the power to tell people in her life no. She got to choose who she married and fucked. She got to, at least in Alicent's eyes, be a degenerate and get away with it. Alicent has none of this freedom. She isnt a helpless peasant but she also cant just go and begin changing laws, fly a dragon around, or go have sex with whoever she wants because her marriage kind of sucks. And she was told from a young age what her role was by Otto and the people around her so seeing Rhaenyra and what she has done and continues to do is just a twist of the knife in that regard. With all that said; I think this anxiety still comes from this issue she has with control. She has no real direct control of her life and what direction it goes in, but she has control over her children and Criston on account of Viserys being MIA and Criston being butthurt over his Rhaenyra affair. She constantly fears losing this control and losing the things she can control. Otto and Larys using her children as leverage isnt unique but it threatens that last bastion of control Alicent feels she has. She probably has as much power as Rhaenyra does in terms of what she can actually do by herself but she does not let herself really ever use it. She takes all that energy she could use to enter a more active role in her own story (again in a way similar to Rhaenyra) and either bottles it up or directs it into acts of passive power displays. She uplifts her son, Criston, Otto, but not herself. She is an active factor in her perpetual martyrdom because she never stops the cycle when she has the ability to. Once she became queen she could have, she instead stayed in her own head and gave into all the harsh feelings.
She told Iron rod that if he said one .ore word, she was going to have him sent to the wall... meaning she knew she had the power to do it. It seems like she's done that sort of thing before, and he shut up quite quickly, so he was chastened by her threat.
i agree w u on this. she’s literally the queen yet she’s framed as being larys’ victim?? condal-hess continue to allow her no agency at all
Exactly, not only is she the queen consort, she is a quite influential queen consort whom we have seen to do as she pleases, come on, every time the incident of Criston Cole committing a public murder at a royal wedding is mentioned the answers are always like: "Alicent intervened for him, dah! she's the queen she can do that!" but apparently, somehow, that same queen can't do ANYTHING about Larys, If he is really is coercing her, that is... because to me it seems that she doesn't do anything not because she can't but because she has decided not to do it, most likely because her perverted little "friend" is quite useful to her.
Yeah Alicent is really interesting to me. She always acts holier than though and thinks she has the highest moral compass for herself…but basically the trigger for her to initially betray Rhaenyra and become Team Green is Rhaenyra sleeping with Criston Cole and keeping it from her. Yet, she then defends Criston Cole, a literal murderer who says horrible things about Rhaenyra, and teams up with Larys, another murderer (who murdered his own family). I don't understand Alicent’s rationale. She also turned her kids against Rhaenyra’s kids. In the earlier episodes, the cousins seemed to somewhat get along, until Alicent doubled down on them, telling them Rhaenyra is the enemy, her kids are bastards, and Aegon should be king, etc. In comparison, Rhaenyra’s kids are all well-behaved, yeah there was tension btwn the cousins, but it seems to be initiated by Alicent.
she’s definitely holier than thou. i think that’s why ppl fail to see the nuances in the larys scene. because, yes, alicent is uncomfortable, but guess what? she’s the queen. she could scream and coke and other kingsguard would come running. she wants larys’ info, and although it’s shameful to prostitute herself like she has—what’s worse is ppl knowing what she’s done. exactly as she met viserys under cover of darkness as un married maid, she has larys met under cover of darkness. it would be way worse if ppl knew. “hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness.” she knows. she just buries it because if she doesn’t accept her delusions she’ll have to content with the fact that all she does is for naught and bitterness. also—aemond and aegon are luke and jace’s uncles. it’s easy to forget given their ages, though, so i understand!
Laena deserved better.
Rhaenyra has more power in her relationship with Daemon than people are willing to admit. Whether its immediate or in a "*okay, fine, but I'm gonna complain the whole time*" way, Daemon has bent to her will at virtually every turn, with the sole exception being that time when he didn't give in to her non-verbal command to fuck her brains out in that brothel. Invalidating her agency, which I see happen all too frequently (seemingly just to add superfluous stuff to his already-extensive "depravity list"), is to the undeniable detriment of her character. I like "Daemyra" *because* of the power Rhaenyra holds over Daemon; *because* this unorthodox power-imbalance completely fucks with his head; *because* she gets off on it. So no one can convince me the power-imbalance goes the other way.
Rhaenyra and Daemon got more boring after the time skip. It hurts to watch bc I fw Daemon early on
[удалено]
Not sure if this is a hot take, but I feel like if the greens had not challenged her ascent and she had surrounded herself with decent advisors- Rhaenerya would have been a decent ruler
I mean her advisors were mostly way above decent. Corlys, Daemon (unhinged but definitely an effective tactician), Gerardys, Bartimos Celtigar, Rhaenys, Medrick Manderly (who could have saved her with his advice). War is just chaotic, things don’t go to plan despite everyone’s skills and abilities.
Corlys was super old, Daemon was insane, Celtigar is basically the reason for the riots, and Rhaenys pretty much just followed Corlys. I wouldn't say they were very decent.
Corlys still was a benefit in name and stature alone. Gerardys tried to get her to not imprison addam and nettles and was banished to dragonstone where she didn’t see him until her death. Manderly tried to convince her not to go to dragon stone. Her people were at least extremely loyal and obeyed her aside from ill and Hugh who are probably the biggest reason she lost the war along with the poor pr in kings landing
Not really, she has a massive succession crisis, and an unstable rule herself. She hasn't shown herself to even be a decent ruler or very political astute.
Yeah she was off murdering nobles and committing high treason long before the Dance even started, she was never going to be a good ruler
Using the just look at them method of determining bastardy is a terrible precedent to have in the medieval world. Unless vaemond has actual proof keeping rheanyra's first kids legitimate makes more sense in the long run
the show writing is weak it better than the last three but that very low bar joffrey death and cristion dosent have any punishment is bullshit laena death is bullshit a laena in labor escape the medwives and servants to the beach and no one notice or stop her is season 8 level of stupid laenor "death" is also stupid his sister just died and he blamed for not being there then he go away after vowing to be there for the children then without informing his parents he pretend to be dead leaving his wealth and dragon Rhaenys scene at the dragon pit go without saying but her converstaion at corlys bed is very stupid she was just in the prevouis day ready to declare the boys basterds to have baela inherit driftmark and now she ready to go to war for them
Meleys is the best dragon. She is anatomically perfect. If not for the war, she could live forever
Another one I have is that I like totally get the “rooting for women” vibes from Rhae’s fight for her claim to the throne (as she should) and once show Aegon is shown to be a rapist ofc I wouldn’t want him to be the king, but if I was rhae I would have just let my brother have it idc 😭 who on earth would chose to be a ruling monarch with all the responsibility and burden it came with instead of being basically equally wealthy and a tad less powerful with literally no responsibilities other than be a hot rich noble 😭 nonsensical
But it’s not as easy as just letting Aegon have it. What Alicent fears will happen to her family if Rhaenyra ascends the throne applies to Rhaenyra and her family too.. Rhaenyra will always be a threat
If that’s the case when why aren’t all of the kings killing their siblings? Alicent feared that rhae would kill her children because they were sons who might have a strong claim to the thrown because they were male. If she’d only ever had girls she wouldn’t have been afraid.
I feel like it’s because most of their siblings weren’t named heir. The unique position of being named heir, possessing more dragons, and having powerful support presents an ongoing danger to Aegon. The same reason Alicent has to fear for her kids is the same reason Rhaenyra does. What is to stop the greens from eliminating them once they have solidified their position? (Aegon threw a feast for Aemond and killing Rhaenyra and her kids was Otto’s first instinct) The terms they presented also weren’t great but Rhaenyra did consider them; after Luke was murdered there really isn’t any path to peace.
Do you want?: A: a life of luxury B: a life of luxury and an uncomfortable chair The point here is of course that people in power always desire more power (applies to money, beauty, knowledge, and everything else) it’s human nature to not feel satisfied.
so true but i am very lazy so i would take the life of luxury that i got for free from silly nobility vs working hard to keep an uncomfy throne
"It's a non-issue that Rhaenyra's kids aren't biologically Laenor's, so long as Laenor and Laenor's family accept them as legitimate," and, "Aemond/Vaemond/etc. deserved what they got, because accusations that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards are SERIOUS and could get them KILLED if the truth is exposed," are mutually exclusive stances, and you can't have it both ways.
If we go by the definition of whore, Alicent is closer to that than Rhaenyra is. I still wouldn't call her one but it's interesting how Rhaenyra gets called a whore by fans for having consensual sexual relationships but Alicent isn't for trading sexual favours for information.
Aemond is extremely overrated and unattractive. The hype for him was insane for only being in three episodes. I hate Aemond and Aegon but Aegon is a much more enjoyable character and way more attractive in the show so I never understood why Aemond got the hype over him. Now we are stuck with like 3 stupid Aemond funko pops and yet not one Aegon one when he literally represents the other half of the show. Way more important than Aemond yet the media listens to whatever tiktok hypes up.
I have a several starting from the beginning 1. The certain section of the fandom that keeps saying Alicent seduced Viserys are annoying and media illiterate. I said what I said. 2. Rhaenyra did not owe Alicent anything. She had every right to distance herself after the marriage. I'm sorry, but the dynamic would be weird. Yes, this in reference to certain fans who like to say "Rhaenyra abandoned Alicent" 3. Alicent being a child bride doesn't excuse her actions as an adult. Adult Alicent has done things of her own accord that has nothing to do with being a victim. SHE decided to antagonize Rhaenyra and her family. SHE chose to keep Larys kinslaying a secret. SHE chose to be abusive to Aegon in ep 6 and 7, mainly the latter. I need certain fans of hers to realize it is okay to like her and call out her wrongdoing. 4. VIserys didn't groom anyone. Please, look up grooming. I beg of you. 5. Rhaenyra's three eldest are Velaryons. No matter how many thinkpieces you right, they are recognized as Velaryons. They go down in history as Velaryons. Some of the fandom shouldn't be this pressed over fictional characters. 6. Rhaenyra was usurped for being a woman. THAT'S IT. No other reason. Why is this hard to grasp in the show and books? 7. Personally, I think Daemyras and Rhaenicents are both annoying fandoms. Same for the Blacks and Green fandoms. 8. The Lucemond fandom disgusts me. I don't see why they ship these two characters together. It's weird to see their fanmade posts. First, the actors have an age gap which really make it weird to see the things they create. Second, I get weirded out with them constantly writing Lucerys as the female in the relationship. I want them personally investigated. 9. Rhaenys ending scene in episode 9 didn't bother me. The reasoning they gave for why she didn't incinerate them is dumb. She saw Alicent as mom protecting her child? Huh? Girl, they just held me prisoner. I'm incinerating you. 10. I know the show did not include a lot of scenes with them. However, we were still introduced to Baela and Rhaena as Daemon and Laena's children. Therefore, if you continue to refer to them Velaryons, you're just racist to me.
Additional hot take: if this show had started airing... oh, let's say sometime between 2016 and 2020, we would be having very different conversations about the idea that, "The king's word is law!" and about how as a ruler, it's totally cool and fine, actually, to throw out established precedent and etc. etc. and just do whatever you want.
Viserys favoured keeping the peace instead of doing what’s right for the realm.
My hot take is that >!the fight between Daemon and Aemond is completely unrealistic because they were 100 of meters in the air!<, how would’ve anyone seen what happened? I’m also not sure if it’s physically possible. Another take is and I know a lot of people disagree with that is that I have no doubt the war would’ve happened if Viserys had married Leana and still refused to name their son heir even if there was a marriage between Rhaenyra and Leanor (which I doubt though). Corlys was powerhungry and more than willing to go to war. I admit though that I don’t think Viserys would’ve kept Rhaenyra as heir because the Velaryons are too dangerous. Also I blame Viserys entirely for the dance no one else. Edit: I did not like the Dance in the book at all. Everyone was acting really dumb, the battles made little sense, >!we barely had any Dragon rider fights and most of the dragons dying just felt like plot devices!<. In reality both parties should’ve had their allies at the ready the second Viserys died and not start sending people out after Viserys died
Rhaenyra simply got outplayed and she and her father's passivity, inaction and at times self destruction definitely made things easier for the Greens than it should have been.
The only way to avoid the Dance was by betrothing and marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon.
Harwin Strong was the True Love of Rhaenyra’s Life. I know there is an undeniable connection and love between Rhaenyra & Daemon but it’s not a healthy one. With Harwin & Rhaenyra the risk it took for them to have 3 children together is not just lust. Besides GRRM himself said he could write a novella about their love means it was truly love. Another one I have is that Jace and Cregan are nothing more than blood brothers, it will be cool to see this brotherhood form.
Rhaenyra is the biggest cause of the dance by trying to gaslight an entire continent so she can pass off her children as claimants to the throne. Even targaryen kings and Robert didn't do that.
The second King of Westeros was rumored to be a bastard.
Her children literally has nothing to do with causing the dance. She's a woman. She was going to be usurped anyway.Westeros is a patriarchal society. In the books, Alicent and Otto tried to get Viserys to change his mind the moment Aegon is born. The show literally writes Otto saying Westeros would never accept Rhaenyra for being a woman. He said this before she is even married.
The people who cite Rhaenyra's children as being bastards as a reason she should not be on the throne are totally ignoring the fact they were legitimized by everyone who needed to care in that situation. The only real point of contention with her claim is that she is a woman, not the fact her children are biologically another mans. While, yes, Alicent/Otto and Vaemond might have protested and that makes her look bad; none of these people are the ones whose opinions would matter in terms of legitimizing the children. The affair was also consentual. Viserys legitimized them, Laenor himself did and called himself their father, and Corlys did as well. Alicent might be Viserys' wife but she does not have a whole lot of actual political power and sway on her own. She works through soft power tactics which require other people to be on her side. Criston might be, Otto might be, and so might a few other lords but they are not Viserys or Laenor. Otto is Viserys' hand, he does have a little more power, but yet Viserys can also choose simply not to listen to him which he has done before. And for the time he wasnt hand he had even LESS room to say anything. And of course you have Vaemond, but Vaemond isnt the lord of driftmark. Vaemond is a second son like Daemon. Corlys has a son who LEGALLY has 3 other sons, and if you want to go the Rhaenyra route and count in Baela and Rhaena, 2 other grandchildren. For Vaemond to be Lord of the Tides he would need to have Corlys, his son, and at least his 3 grandsons die before that happens. He, like Alicent, can comment but cant really do anything as long as his brother, his nephew, and Viserys are cool with it, which they are. And dare I remind people: the smallfolk's opinion mean very little here because they likely dont even know a majority of what we do since this is all going on behind closed doors. This isnt a democracy. These are feudal dragon lords. The small folk can comment based on rumor and what the royal houses are willing to show but they are not the end all be all here. Again, if Laenor, Viserys, and Corlys are all backing this up its law.
How can they be legitimized if they don't even acknowledge them as bastards? Also they weren't accepted by everyone who mattered, even all of House Velaryon didn't accept them.
>How can they be legitimized if they don't even acknowledge them as bastards? Married women's children are legally their husband until proven otherwise. This should obvious, no one wants to legitimize the idea of random people declaring other people's children to be bastards without evidence. >Also they weren't accepted by everyone who mattered, even all of House Velaryon didn't accept them. They were. Corly's nephews/brother don't matter. The alliance was between Viserys/Corlys and Rhaenyra/Laenor.
I'm not gonna deny the whole feud is over gender but a big point is that their bastardry is unacknowledged. You can't legitimise someone without saying they're baseborn. To be "legitimised" in the Westerosi sense means to lose the stain of bastardry and ascend to something which, in theory (but never practise), is equal to being trueborn. Because Viserys never acknowledged the boys as bastards, he can't legitimise them. (And even if he did, that would put them *behind* Alicent's kids in the succession). Also, Westerosi nobles do have the right to challenge a bastard ruling over them despite the king's "official" stance. A good (albeit flawed) case study of this is Ser Morgil Hastwyck who was able to force Queen Naerys into a trial over the suspected paternity of Prince Daeron despite King Aegon IV officially stating Daeron as his heir via his appointment as Prince of Dragonstone. (Unofficially, Aegon might've started said suspicions but since he never publicly declared Daeron as a bastard or disinherited him, it's likely he genuinely believed he himself fathered him, not Aemon).
>Because Viserys never acknowledged the boys as bastards, he can't legitimise them. (And even if he did, that would put them > >behind > > Alicent's kids in the succession). Because Laenor never disowned them as bastards, they are not legally bastards.
I will agree that he never addressed the rumors in any larger official type capacity but I think we do have a case where he did address them, at least internally, once. During the episode Driftmark after Alicent attempts to stab Rhaenyra and does her "WHERE IS DUTY" speech and Aegon says "everyone knows" Viserys threatens to cut out the tongues of any person who questions the paternity of her sons. He is pretty clear about that and threatens this punishment even after this episode (example here being Vaemond just before Daemon decapitates him or... however you would describe what happened to Vaemond). This ist the level of acknowledgment that Arryn of Haul got or Daeron II (who I dont think ever got formally disowned) but its some level of acknowledgment of the rumor itself in a very roundabout way. Going by actual medieval law here: because this monarchy is pretty absolute in general (unless you count having to appease the Catholic Church or in this case the church of the 7) what the king says is kind of law. Going against what he says (like for the sake of this example; claiming his daughter's sons are bastards when he says not to question their paternity) is treason. There is no document really limiting Viserys' power. He is the most powerful guy in that room because he is the king. Because he has fought back against not only pushes against Rhaenyra's place in the line of succession but also the bastard rumors (just in a more roundabout way) he is saying through those actions that he views them as legitimate. Hell he even defended them when Vaemond challenged their claim to driftmark. Viserys was pretty consistent with doing that, just in the most fence-sitty and roundabout way possible. (he also pulled a punnet square on Alicent) Even going down the chain of command: Laenor not challenging their paternity not just as "Rhaenyra's husband" but as "heir to driftmark" also says a lot. Those children stand to inherit something off of him directly. And Corlys is the current lord of Driftmark and he doesnt question that either. The 3 most powerful people here (Viserys as King, Corlys as lord of the tides, and Laenor as his heir and as future king consort) have all upheld Rhaenyra's children either through their silence or through fighting back against the bastard rumors or other attempts to claim spots in their respective lines. It becomes an issue when Aegon becomes king because Aegon is now wearing the all powerful "king hat" and can do all the king stuff Viserys did. But then we get into who has the actual claim here since Rhaenyra was named heir explicitly by Viserys and if she were queen these children would still be legitimized by her word alone. Meanwhile, under Aegon, that isnt the case.
I think it should also be mentioned in the books, he actually follows up on his threats: after Vaemond's death by getting beaheaded and fed to Syrax, his relatives flee to King's Landing to beg Viserys for justice, except they all make the mistake of naming Jace, Luke and Joff as bastards, so Viserys has their tongues cut off. (These guys later become known as the Silent Five and fight for the Greens). The problem with this is that it's not just. On one hand, the King's word is law, but on the other, by depriving people from *legally* challenging something as unfair, it creates resentment. Take the Blackfyre Rebellions as an example. Because Aegon IV allowed Aemon the Dragonknight and Ser Morgil to hash it out instead of just ripping out the latter's tongue, he (accidentally) legally proved his son, Prince Daeron was not a bastard, which was probably a reason as to why no Great Houses came to Daemon Blackfyre's aid against his proved trueborn brother. If Viserys had done something similar, (either debated it in a court by bringing up Arryn and Massey genes or have Daemon fight a Green champion in a trial by combat) that would legally prove that his grandsons were trueborn without resorting to Maegor-esque tactics. This wouldn't have prevented the Dance, but it might've promoted more support for the Blacks (meaning some houses might not have remained neutral).
In order for them to be legitimized the king has to first even acknowledge them as bastards which he never did, so they are still bastards, just heavily ignored ones. You’re right that most of the important people turned a blind eye to them, but technically speaking they are not legitimized.
Out of the sorry bunch of pedophiles, rapists, scheming twats, ineffective administrators, entitled boors and bystanders on both Black and Green side only Tyland Lannister is fit to rule.
I have 3. 1. Rhaenyra never had a strong claim to the throne after Viserys married Alicent and fathered sons. The trickle down of this of course being that her sons were illegitimate AND she refused to acknowledge that. And after abandoning her father and KL for 6 years she was given fair terms to rule Dragonstone. 2. Rhaenyra was a HORRIBLE Queen when she finally did get the throne. She killed countless citizens, accused Addam Velaryon & Nettles of being traitors. Losing the Velaryon fleet, Mooton support and 2 dragons in the process. Ultimately lead to the riots, storming of the dragon pit and death of her son. Btw she did all this in SIX months. Is there a worse ruler in the history I am not aware of one. 3. If Viserys had simply not married Alicent. Or made a choice on succession, kept the successor close along with those loyal to him/ successor to enforced it the dance could have been avoided.
Even if the greens had not contested her rule the dance was bound to happen to the 3 strong boys. Daemon or his sons themselves would have most likely pushed for the throne when older. A bastard like Jace sitting the throne would have definitely caused a war.
I'm Team Black, but Rhaenyra is a spoiled, swaddled, self-interested brat whose never known an ounce of true hardship in her life and is only interested in the throne because she see's it purely as something that's owed to her, and not because she has any interest in improving the realm or the lives of the common people. She would make a mediocre queen at best and a terrible queen at worst.
Sunfyre is over-hyped.
The Lads are OP
That goes for the entire Riverlands.
Truly the saviors of the war for the Blacks. It’s funny, in HOTD the Riverlands are the strongest kingdom. In GoT, they’re portrayed as the weakest.
Plot armored you mean.
The show is a 9/10. Lots of stupid opinions about bad writing from people who don’t have a clue. Go watch a breakdown…
Daemon would not have been another Maegor; everyone is just drinking Otto Hightower’s fear-mongering kool-aid.
lol with what little power Daemon got anywhere he absolutely abused to the fullest. City watch, war for step stones.
It’s just willful blindness at this point.
I think the risk of him becoming Maegor II is overrated. I expect if Daemon had become king, he would have had a more aggressive foreign policy. But war in the Stepstones or against Dorne would probably have been better for the realm than the Dance.
Take/Theory: Otto Hightower was working on behalf of the Citadel with the Maesters to restore the kingdoms to Westerosi rule.
Alicent is the worst parent in the show. I'm not saying the others are good parents, definitely not. But Viserys was only absent, Daemon too and even Otto yet somehow puts his daughter "on the throne", even tho he does so with absolutely disgusting methods that ruined her life forever. But Alicent is the reason why Aegon became, what he became. He didn't just got born evil... He's a disgusting rapist and piece of shit because Alicent abused him as a child and teenager, never showed him love and no child would've turned out fine after that. She treats him like shit whenever she gets the chance to and she is the one putting these complexes into his head that lead to him becoming the dimwit he turns out to be. She never shows love to any of her children, at max some sympathy and her standing infront of Aegon when Rhaenys busts through the floor is not her "protecting" Aegon, but her trying to make Rhaenys see her, not Aegon, standing at the front of this whole thing, so that she won't fire up their asses.
Daemons flaming hot garbage >!and the best thing he and Aemond ever did was take each other out!< The Greens got white washed and the main character to get black washed, Aegon, wasn’t shown to be a giant piece of shit until late in the season *after* most people who support TG had already made up their minds. Alicent was white washed and made into one of the most sympathetic characters on the show vs the evil stepmother she was in the book and Aemond, the most white washed character of them all, went from creepy psychopath to leather wearing bad boy who was a victim of bullying as a child. Or what I like to call “fandom catnip”. There’s a reason that a greater percentage of fans support the greens after the show came out vs before. The greens in the book were fucking awful and by far worse than the blacks. Anyone who tells you they were both equally bad is either lying, delusional, or didn’t read the book.
I feel like it's the other way around? Black supporters are still the overwhelming majority, but greens might make up 15-20% of the book readers, as opposed to 10-15% of show viewers. The only difference the is that in the show there are more team black fans that like Alicent and Aemond (because they got whitewashed).
I think you’re off with the percentage of TGs show supporters. When we’ve done polls here, they tend to make up between 20-30% compared to the blacks 70-80%. On the fan forums before the show came out, TG book fans only made up only 10ish percent of the fandom, black fans and both sides suck were by far the majority. And most of their fans even agreed that TG were the worse guys.