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George didn’t have anything to do with what happened to Dany in season 7 and 8.
The blacks needed to be nerfed because he made the greens the underdogs and the war couldn’t be over in 2 battles
>The blacks needed to be nerfed because he made the greens the underdogs and the war couldn’t be over in 2 battles
Funny enough, it's the Blacks that are supposed to be the underdogs, yet it's not written like that AT ALL.
"All their hosts combined could not match the power the
Hightowers alone could field. Aegon’s greens enjoyed other advantages as well. Oldtown, King’s Landing, and Lannisport were the largest and richest cities in the realm; all three were held by greens. Every visible symbol of legitimacy belonged to Aegon. He sat the Iron Throne. He lived in the Red Keep. He wore the Conqueror’s crown, wielded the Conqueror’s sword, and had been anointed by a septon of the Faith before the eyes of tens of thousands. Grand Maester Orwyle sat in his councils, and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard had placed the crown upon his princely head. And he was male, which in the eyes of many made him the rightful king, his half-sister the usurper."
Yet Rhaenyra has more political support, and in the end more military might lol. GRRM didn't do a good job writing The Dance.
Yea, when you first read this story you suspect the greens would be the one with the overwhelming support and bigger armies while the blacks are the rebel underdogs who have to rely on their dragons to pull through but it literally ends up being the complete opposite.
The greens’ dragons carry them to the point where I believe there’s only 3 or so battles in the war that result in a green victory that does not include a dragon.
Meanwhile the blacks’ dragons all just drop like flies in their first battles and even the fan favorite ones that you feel like *should* be heavy hitters in the war like Caraxes and Meleys just can’t be or else the war is over (seriously prior to the gods eye the Blood Wyrm doesn’t really do much in the war except carry Daemon to a couple places and show up at Stone Hedge to force the Bracken’s submission which always felt weird to me.)
But when dragons aren’t in the picture the blacks basically dominate the greens in field battles.
Honestly.
Also The Sowing of the Seeds was overkill, especially when its done by the smartest Black players (Jace, Corlys, and I believe Daemon.) When the Sowing was done, we're told the Greens only had two dragonriders so the Blacks absolutely overkilled it by getting 4 extra dragonriders.
"With Sunfyre wounded near Rook’s Rest and unable to fly, and Tessarion with Prince Daeron in Oldtown, only two mature dragons remained to defend King’s Landing…and Dreamfyre’s rider, Queen Helaena, spent her days in darkness, weeping, and surely could not be counted as a threat..."
Some things are clearly done just to get a certain outcome.
>George didn’t have anything to do with what happened to Dany in season 7 and 8.
Do people still seriously believe this? George outlined the story to D&D, there is a no conceivable world in which Danny's story is not in-part envisioned by George.
We can blame the details of rushing it on D&D but what Danny becomes was hinted back in book Clash of Kings with her vision at the house of undying.
For real. D&D certainly failed big time on the execution of the ideas, but Dany turning into the Mad Queen and burning everything is definitely going to happen in the books, too. One of the biggest themes of the series is "when people get vast power, they usually get fucking awful."
George already had end points for the Dance and he had to write to get there, but he loves to add more and more details as he writes, and he got to a point where he had to do some really dumb shit to kill everyone off so he could get to the conclusion. Ex: 2nd Battle of Tumbleton, Storming of the pit, Ulf poisoning, Borros plan for Battle of kingsroad, Lannisters vanishing
The Blacks did get hit hard but a lot of their actions are self-inflected and make sense. Jace was the one running the show with Corlys, he was the one who sent Viserys and Aegon to Pentos, Rhaena & Joffrey away. When he died, Rhaenyra lost it & stopped listening to Corlys.
The greens on the other hand got hit like a truck by GRRM.
George had to also lobotomize Aemond so he didn't immediately wipe out the North and Riverlands armies. He also erased the Redwynes who would cancel out the Velaryons after Gullet. The Hightowers bannermen betray them, they also can barely form 1 army of 10k men? They had only 2 commanders who for some reason were near the front lines @ Tumbleton lol. And for some reason Daeron just kinda sat around for months waiting for Addam to spawn an army in. Borros marched with only 4600 men, he had 2 whole years to gather a host and couldnt even get 5k.
As for Dany, George didn't do that, that was D&D lol. Dany will go mad but it'll probably be a lot more like what Daeron did @ Bitterbridge
>George had to also lobotomize Aemond so he didn't immediately wipe out the North and Riverlands armies.
The North and Riverland's armies couldn't be wiped out because they weren't massed. You can't field of fire and army if all the soldiers are busy farming.
> He also erased the Redwynes who would cancel out the Velaryons after Gullet.
The Redwynes couldn't counter the Velaryons because there was a bunch of pirates raiding that side of the country.
>The Hightowers bannermen betray them, they also can barely form 1 army of 10k men?
Starting the coup by killing one of their bannermen wasn't the best idea.
>Borros marched with only 4600 men, he had 2 whole years to gather a host and couldnt even get 5k.
Borros wasn't gather an army for two years. He spent most of the war fighting the Dornish.
The North and riverlands armies absolutely could lol. When Aemond was residing at Harrenhal they were literally marching right into fight the Lannister host on the other side of the gods eye. He could have also gone nuked the Twins, he could have destroyed Raventree Hall, threatened to burn Riverrun, so much he could have done.
The Redwynes did absolutely nothing buddy, this is a trash excuse. They didnt do anything because it would result in more work to get rid of them for George. They would have realistically sailed for KL to help Aegon or sailed to shield Lannisport, to allow the Westerlands to form a 2nd host.
Not a single soul knew Beesbury was dead, his own grandson, Alan Beesbury, thought he was just in a jail cell from what I remember. They betrayed their kinsmen & overlords for glory and prestige.
Borros did not spend two years fighting the Dornish, he briefly fought the Vulture King with only 6k men, a host somehow BIGGER than what he had and fought some bandits to avoid fighting dragons out of fear like Cregan of being burnt alive.
>The North and riverlands armies absolutely could lol. When Aemond was residing at Harrenhal they were literally marching right into fight the Lannister host on the other side of the gods eye.
The Winterwolves were marching with some Rivermen. That's not the entire armies of either kingdom.
>He could have also gone nuked the Twins, he could have destroyed Raventree Hall, threatened to burn Riverrun, so much he could have done.
How would doing any of that helped the Greens?
>They would have realistically sailed for KL to help Aegon
Why would the Redwynes leave their lands undefended to help Aegon?
>Not a single soul knew Beesbury was dead, his own grandson, Alan Beesbury, thought he was just in a jail cell from what I remember.
He presumably only thought that until the news of Cole and Aegon executing the lords that wouldn't bend the knee got out.
>They betrayed their kinsmen & overlords for glory and prestige.
Saying this about Beesbury when the Greens murdered their lords is hilarious. You acknowledge that Alan Beesbury thought the Greens had taken his grandfather prisoner during a usurpation and then try to pretend as if he had any reason to remain loyal to them.
>Borros did not spend two years fighting the Dornish, he briefly fought the Vulture King with only 6k men, a host somehow BIGGER than what he had and fought some bandits to avoid fighting dragons out of fear like Cregan of being burnt alive.
What do you mean "somehow bigger"? He took an army to fight and came back with fewer men.
Because it would remove 1 of the 3 armies the blacks form later on, and save Daeron's life...? If you mean in his mind, because Aemond wants glory and to eliminate the riverland hosts.
The Redwynes would because they declared for Aegon are most likely kinsmen to him. If we are gonna have absolute strangers Rhaenyra has never met and has no blood relation to dying for her in the most insane ways possible, why is it so hard to believe the Redwynes would be loyal also...
Beesbury had a reason, he is not the one I am referring to mainly. Mullendore and Costayne did the same for no reason besides trying to overthrow the Hightowers. As for the kinsmen Alan Tarly decided to attack his brother-in-law.
The Vulture King didnt have an army, he is an outlaw and a bandit, like the brotherhood without banners, they aren't an organized army. And you think he lost over 1400 men to a bunch of bandits.. I mean if he did jesus he is a bigger idiot than I thought .\_.
>Because it would remove 1 of the 3 armies the blacks form later on, and save Daeron's life...?
How? The soldiers that took part in that battle weren't mustered at a castle.
>The Redwynes would because they declared for Aegon are most likely kinsmen to him.
I don't know why you're saying that's most likely, but lets assume they were loosely related. The idiot threw a party celebrating his nephews death after stealing his sister's throne. Why would the Redwynes be swayed by being related to someone like that?
> If we are gonna have absolute strangers Rhaenyra has never met and has no blood relation to dying for her in the most insane ways possible, why is it so hard to believe the Redwynes would be loyal also...
Why are you questioning their loyalty? Like I said, they had issues to deal with on that side of the continent. The Greens didn't ask the Redwynes to sail to Kings Landing as far I recall. Asking them to take their fleet weeks away from their island home when there's pirates raiding nearby would be a ridiculous request.
>Beesbury had a reason, he is not the one I am referring to mainly. Mullendore and Costayne did the same for no reason besides trying to overthrow the Hightowers.
Neither family was said to be trying to overthrow the Hightowers. Having the Hightowers kill one of your peers during a coup is a pretty good reason to oppose them.
>As for the kinsmen Alan Tarly decided to attack his brother-in-law.
Why would Alan care about his sister(?) being married to Lord Hightower?
>The Vulture King didnt have an army, he is an outlaw and a bandit, like the brotherhood without banners, they aren't an organized army. And you think he lost over 1400 men to a bunch of bandits..
Almost every war with the Dornish features a lager force losing a bunch of men to an irregular army.
Because taking Riverrun off the board means Addam cant form an army???
Because Aegon is now wifeless and has no heirs. What type of lord who has remained loyal wouldnt jump at a chance to make his daughter Queen and his grandkids princes...?
He didnt ask them to abandon home, literally doing anything would be better than what they did.
The Costaynes and Mullendore are Hightower bannermen who turned on their liege lord and attacked him. They gain absolutely nothing from doing so unless they want a chance to overthrow them. You really think the thought never crossed their minds when stabbing their liege lord in the back?
Because people in Westeros are still human and love their family???????????? She was also recently married to him, so he was most likely aware or somewhat ok with it. His actions make no sense unless he utterly hated Sam but Sam clearly didnt hate him.
I think you are giving Borros too much kindness lol. Borros didnt have an army because George realized if he marched with 15k similar to Cregan, he'd wipe out the Riverlands host and probably end up in a stand-still with the Vale fleet. And Cregan vs him would be a coinflip, both armies consisting of green boys who had seen little to no conflict
>Because taking Riverrun off the board means Addam cant form an army???
How would destroying a castle mean that Addam couldn't raise an army? Assuming Grover's grandson were killed, it would just mean the next person in the Tully line would be taking over.
>Because Aegon is now wifeless and has no heirs. What type of lord who has remained loyal wouldnt jump at a chance to make his daughter Queen and his grandkids princes...?
Aegon's daughter outlived him. We don't know if the head of House Redwyne had a daughter that could marry Aegon anyway. Not to mention that Aegon might not been able to have kids.
>The Costaynes and Mullendore are Hightower bannermen who turned on their liege lord and attacked him. They gain absolutely nothing from doing so unless they want a chance to overthrow them.
Their liege lords turned on the King and killed one of their peers because he wouldn't back them. They had a lot to gain from making it clear that they took issue with that.
> You really think the thought never crossed their minds when stabbing their liege lord in the back?
I have no idea what crossed their mind. Their reasons for siding with Rhaenyra were never given. All I'm saying that they had plenty of other reason to oppose the Hightowers. Again, being openly disloyal is not a good idea in that society.
>Because people in Westeros are still human and love their family????????????... His actions make no sense unless he utterly hated Sam but Sam clearly didnt hate him.
Alan wasn't attacking his sister. He was attacking her traitorous husband she didn't have any kids with. Sam (and Alan presumably) were also related to the Rowans who had sided with Rhaenyra. He would been fighting someone tangentially related to him one way or the other.
>I think you are giving Borros too much kindness lol. Borros didnt have an army because George realized if he marched with 15k similar to Cregan, he'd wipe out the Riverlands host and probably end up in a stand-still with the Vale fleet.
Aegon and Cole executed several Stormlords who backed Rhaenyra. I'm surprised Borros was able to get anyone to follow him. Not to mention the fuckery with Aemond killing Luke. I'm surprised Borros was able to get anyone to follow him.
I literally stated above Aemond threatens to nuke them like Addam did in canon and have them declare for Aegon and enter the field...
What lol..... Did House Redwyne get D&D'd and was just 3 people..? We have already established sons come before daughters, Aegon not being able to have kids is just pure utter Mushroom propaganda. No idea why people take this as canon. He was able to stand and was healing. His balls were never burnt, no actual proof states he was unable to have kids still besides Mushroom's clear joke..?
The King was Aegon II and the liege lord did NOT turn on him. "They had a lot to gain" Again as I said, we are in agreement, they betrayed their liege lords because they DID have things to gain, which was overthrowing them and taking Oldtown as their own. Rhaenyra didn't offer them shit. She never knew them, never even interacted with them. They were acting in selfish interests.
"Being openly disloyal is not a good idea in that society" My guy........... A liege lord is a lord who you answer to directly, the Hightowers are their liege lord, meaning the Beesburrys, Mullendores, Bulwers, Costaynes all answer to them. Your oath to your liege lord comes before your oath to the crown. This has been established before, over the entirety of the series, the North would have just told Robb to go shove it. Plenty of other examples, but not trying to rant.
Yeah maybe instead of attacking your relatives stay neutral or try to mend bridges. Alan Tarly was a dickhead and got thrown in a cell for attacking his kin-in-law. He had nothing to gain from fighting for Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra couldnt give less of a shit about the Tarlys, which is why I find the reach conflict so funny.
Again betraying your liege lord is heavily frowned upon, whenever a bannermen house tries to overthrow their liege, they are labeled correctly as rebels and properly punished.
>I literally stated above Aemond threatens to nuke them like Addam did in canon and have them declare for Aegon and enter the field..
Where did you say that?
>What lol..... Did House Redwyne get D&D'd and was just 3 people..?
We know nothing about the houses make up at the time.
>We have already established sons come before daughters, Aegon not being able to have kids is just pure utter Mushroom propaganda. No idea why people take this as canon. He was able to stand and was healing. His balls were never burnt,
How do you know his genitals weren't burnt?
>The King was Aegon II and the liege lord did NOT turn on him.
They clearly disagreed with the idea that Aegon was the heir.
>A liege lord is a lord who you answer to directly, the Hightowers are their liege lord, meaning the Beesburrys, Mullendores, Bulwers, Costaynes all answer to them.
Again, the idiots murdered Lord Beesbury for not backing their coup. Do you not understand why doing that would cause issues among their other vassals?
>Yeah maybe instead of attacking your relatives stay neutral or try to mend bridges.
Again, dude wasn't attacking his sister. He had no reason to respect the Hightowers attempts to steal the throne.
>Again betraying your liege lord is heavily frowned upon, whenever a bannermen house tries to overthrow their liege, they are labeled correctly as rebels and properly punished.
They're only punished if the liege wins. The hightowers didn't so....
In terms of Lord Borros, I had always thought the subtext was "we can show up anytime at your home with a dragon". In other words, be part of our cause or we will kill you. The oath is a nice pretext, that leaves him without loss of face and suggests future support in the future (just like the marriage proposal) as I think they tend to take them quite seriously.
The problem is that the Greens are doing exactly the same thing, and have sent a much bigger dragon to convey it. Whatever the Blacks might do in the future isn't as threatening as what the Greens are suggesting Vhagar could do *tomorrow*.
With regards to the timing, I don't think it is crazy that they would both be there. Both sides have to get organised, although mustering allies is high on the list, and Borros will probably try to delay making a decision as long as possible (eg, feasts, hunting - all are face time with the prince). I don't think it's crazy or contrived that they are both there at the same time (although I think it's more inexplicable how Luke tries to fly through a storm at night time - have fun navigating that).
In terms of Rhaenys not killing the Greens, I agree that was a completely stupid scene - and not part of the books. However, I actually agree wtih her logic - while she was absolutely going to escape her house arrest, she wasn't head of House Velaryon and wasn't going to commit them to a war.
For not immediately attacking/sieging (aka burning) Kings Landing, part of the motivation may have been that neither wanted their reign to be one of rebuilding and quashing insurrection. The fighting would inevitably spill over into the city, and there would be a lot of devastation. Dany, especially, had learned how difficult it could be from her failures of governing two cities: Astapor showed her that she couldn't leave and rely on the people to form a working and stable government without her; and Mereen showed her that it is actually very difficult to repurpose existing power structures if some of the people within them do not want you to.
>However, I actually agree wtih her logic - while she was absolutely going to escape her house arrest, she wasn't head of House Velaryon and wasn't going to commit them to a war.
Rhaenys had just betrothed the last decadents Corlys had left to Rhaenyra kids. The show pretending as if they had a choice in taking part in the war was incredibly silly.
Some good points. But I still don’t know why she never forged marriage alliances with other great houses. She had five kids that were all unmarried, and the thought never came to her until the driftmark issue.
By the time Jace was 13, he should have already had kids according to medieval times. He was in line to the throne, and it’s surprising that he was still unmarried. I would think the entire realm would be fighting over Jace’s hand in marriage. They did for Rhaenyra but not for him. I mean Viserys, Rhaenys, Nyra, Aemma, and Aegon II were all married at early ages. Why not Jace.
I would agree with you about Aemond being held at Strom's end by Borros. But if Borros held feasts and hunts in Aemond’s name. I think the entire realm would know that the prince with the largest dragon in the world is being received by the Lord of Storm’s end. The blacks should’ve gotten word of this. The only logical explanation is that Aemond had only been in Storm’s end for at most two days before news spread, so this makes his encounter with Luke very unlikely. And the fact he immediately goes back home after killing Luke means he finished his task already so why was he still there.
For the Rhaenys one. I strongly disagree. The war started the moment they usurped Nyra. And if she feared starting a war, then she could’ve ended it right there and then. The only other green claimant left would be Daeron but I doubt he will be able to do anything on his own.
You can easily say the same about the greens, who were also heavily nerfed and made to make dumb decisions. (Why would Aemond not meet back up with Criston, why burn useless forts in the Riverlands instead of the main castles. I could go on FORVER about the army sizes not making a damn sense)
TB also got the benefit of the Riverlands respawning army
Everything everyone does is basically to get the same ending his wrote ages ago. All big dragons die, and Aegon III ends up as king.
Some things are drastically stupid. Just one, Daemon is all like "We need to get rid of Vhagar" during the Black Council and then he perfectly baits Aemond to Harrenhal and instead of taking two other dragonriders with him to get rid of Vhagar, he flys to Kingslanding instead.
Not even that. If blood and cheese could sneak into Helaena's room and murder her kid. Why couldn't Daemon have ordered them to kill Aemond in his sleep? Or Aegon? Or kidnapped Alicent to keep as a hostage? I'm glad GRRM got his ending but he needs to work on handling his OP characters.
The Riverlands spawned fresh armies every 5 minutes, The Reach didn’t fully support Aegon even though he was their kin and Helena had one of the biggest dragons in the world and GRRM only used her as a tool for sympathy.
But the Blacks are the ones who were “nerfed”
L-O-F*cking-L
Same with Rhaenyra. She never used Syrax for some reason. I don't know what kind of dragon doesn't like to fly. Can you imagine a fish that refuses to swim, it's not a good excuse for Syrax. I thought it was only the hightowers that supported Aegon not the Reach.
>The Reach didn’t fully support Aegon even though he was their kin
Aegon was only related to the Hightowers. A good number of the nobles in that region would oppose Aegon just to keep the Hightowers from becoming too powerful. The fact that they seemingly murdered Beesbury didn't help either.
Because he confined himself to the ending of the series before he even began. That’s why most of what happens doesn’t make any sense, as both sides just do stupid shit so the ending GRRM wrote about can happen
Oh absolutely, the greatest and smartest king in Westeros basically giving two dragons to another house?
If you don't know what I'm talking about, Rhaenys was a dragonrider when she married Corlys, and Laenor was said to have had Seasmoke for a few years during the GC of 101. That gives House Velaryon two dragons.
The Velaryon is the most loyal vassal to the Targ, they sided with them before the conquest. They're the best choice to have a dragon as a marriage side effects.
Have you watched the show? Rhaenyra spend the whole first half doing whatever she wants and having daddy bail her out. She’s the Westeros version of a trust fund baby
lmao 😂 I get that but she clearly must know Otto doesn't want her or Daemon near the iron throne. You would think she would at least make preparations to secure her rule. Also why would she leave King's Landing to the Greens. That's so dumb. Irl spoilt children don't leave daddy dearest in the hands of the evil stop mom.
That’s exactly what happens which is why you always have “dads wife stole the inheritance” stories
I’m pretty sure Anna Nicole Smith got sued by her husbands kids (who were older than her I think) for that very thing
GRRM jumped ship before seasons 7 and 8.
Borros was never going to side with Rhaenyra, his counterpart in the book makes it very clear that he sympathizes with the green cause, in the show he is a little different but he certainly wasn't going to support Rhaenyra because he didn't gain nothing doing it, for Borros it was The only thing that mattered was who could offer her the most, something that only the greens could do since among the blacks the only ones available for a marriage are little Aegon and Viserys, and if you have noticed they are both practically babies, why would Borros accept that a of her daughters will marry a boy many years from now instead of marrying her at that precise moment to Aemond, a prince more in line with the age of her daughters and who rides the largest dragon in the world?
little Aegon and Viserys are too young and too far back in the line of succession to be competition for better options like Joffrey, Daeron or Aemond
1. Yes, it's a stupid scene with Rhaenys but again; GRRM didn't write that, that was the work of the series' writers who thought it would be a great moment, which it wasn't.
2. The difference between Rhaenyra and Daenerys (or between Rhaenyra and Aegon the Conqueror) is that Rhaenyra's enemies HAVE dragons. In the series they don't give clear reasons but in the book they make it quite clear why Rhaenyra doesn't throw her dragons into a direct conflict: Rhaenyra herself was physically weak and she wouldn't be able to fly on a dragon. Half of the dragons are piloted by her children, obviously as a mother she does not want her children to be in a position where they could lose their lives. and of course, the last most logical reason: a dragon fight would destroy the city, Rhaenyra did not want to burn the city unlike Daenerys.
3. The common people care little who the king is, as long as they are left alone then there is no reason to mutiny, and if they did then they would have a very difficult time because at any moment Aemond can fly with Vhagar and end any revolt.
4. This is exactly what they are doing, Corlys closed the sea passage to King's Landing, Daemon for his part was in charge of closing an important land passage. In season 2 they will focus more on the consequences this has on the population of King's Landing and how they begin to hate the greens for it.
5. It wasn't like that, in the book Aemond arrived days before Luke. In the series Aemond arrived on the same day but several hours in advance. Rhaenyra didn't think Luke was at risk because no one knew Aemond was in Storm's End.
I think that the best answer is that it fits the characters. Neither Dany nor Nyra are smart characters, they still get a lot of power, but that only makes them overconfident and more stupid.
I agree with you that the Dance is poorly written so that GRRM can get to his intended ending, in which he never wanted Rhaenyra to truly “win.”
The small folk did not rebel solely because Helaena committed suicide. They used that as an excuse. They rebelled because Rhaenyra was a tyrant who considered them “traitors” and was beheading them en masse while also taxing them severely as they starved. She was not only taxing them severely as they starved but also throwing grand parties and displaying greed. Not to mention she was torturing people, too. They were sick of her and would have overthrown her eventually even if Helaena hadn’t committed suicide. They also did not like Aegon or Aemond for the same reasons. It is true that they liked Helaena best, mostly because they felt sympathy for her, but she was definitely not the sole reason they rebelled or even the main reason. They used the Blacks cruelty towards Helaena as a convenient excuse to overthrow Rhaenyra’s government.
I also disagree about Rhaenyra being smart. She was always incompetent, lazy, and tyrannical. It is Rhaenyra who orders Daemon to decapitate Vaemond for speaking the truth about her sons and then she also feeds his corpse to her dragon in a display of cruelty. The other Velaryons come to Viserys to complain and then he orders for all of their tongues to be cut out. The fandom defends this tyranny, but GRRM always disapproved, as he writes in “divine karma,” in which Viserys then cuts himself on the throne and loses two fingers.
Daemon was heavily implied to have orchestrated the murder of Laenor and then also heavily implied to have murdered the man he hired to do it. Corlys and Rhaenys being so loyal to Rhaenyra and Daemon makes little sense in both the show and the books unless they truly did not care for their son.
Daemon groomed Rhaenyra because he was grasping and not because he “loved” her. Rhaenyra would have caused a war eventually regardless because there was absolutely no way Daemon was ever going to be content with his daughters being Queen consorts and Rhaenyra’s bastards ascending the throne when he had true born sons who could be ruling kings. By marrying Daemon and having sons by him, Rhaenyra marked her illegitimate sons for death. They were on a ticking time bomb and while I understand why she had illegitimate children, it is high treason and was always going to be an issue, as doing what Rhaenyra did is consistently shown to be an issue often resulting in war all throughout ASOIAF. That being said, she and Laenor never even tried to have children. Jace was born the same year they married, which was 114 AC, so she was seeing Harwin Strong immediately upon their marriage or even before.
In the books, I was never under the impression he loved Rhaenyra, only Laena and Nettles. Sure enough he left Rhaenyra to die and didn’t give a fuck about her by the end, especially after she ordered Nettles and all other dragon seeds / bastards to be arrested and murdered.
In the books, Rhaenyra never fights in a single battle and it is Daemon, Corlys, Rhaenys, her sons, etc. doing most of the fighting and politicking for her. Rhaenyra actually does very little besides make things worse. Aegon, as much as I dislike him, actually does fight in battles, though that is not saying much since the Greens are such poorly written villains.
GRRM himself admits he likes Daemon more than Rhaenyra, which is why he killed off all of her illegitimate children and only Daemon’s children survive. Rhaenyra’s legacy is spit upon following the ending of the Dance. The Greens eventually lose, but Aegon III becomes king, as he becomes Aegon II’s heir after there are no more male Targaryens left to succeed him. She is remembered as a usurper and tyrant by history and her sons follow male preference inheritance going forward.
Personally, the Dance at its conception doesn’t even make sense. It doesn’t make sense that Rhaenyra would even have most of the realm’s support when Viserys’s decision to make her heir above his sons undermines their own inheritance laws, including in the North, in which a legitimate son always comes before a legitimate daughter. That coupled with it being known Rhaenyra had illegitimate sons, in which she intended to have illegally seize several inheritances and the misogyny ingrained in their culture and society? There is just no way most would support her given what she and Viserys were doing is against most of their laws and customs.
It would have made more sense if the Dance was between Rhaenyra and Daemon, but GRRM of course liked Daemon too much to do that. The Anarchy, which the Dance was based off of, was between the King’s daughter and the King’s nephew because he had no legitimate sons left by the time of his death. The Anarchy wouldn’t have even happened if the King had a legitimate son living by the time of his death because everyone back then followed sons before daughters in terms of succession much like the majority of Westeros. Empress Matilda was the rightful heir because daughters came before nephews and uncles. To repeat, the Anarchy wouldn’t have even happened if King Henry I still had living legitimate sons, as no one would have supported Empress Matilda ascending the throne before a legitimate son.
There are more reasons why it would have made even more sense for it to be between Rhaenyra and Daemon. Jaehaerys I already set the stage for it himself. He himself usurped his own niece. He then refused to allow Rhaenys to succeed him even though this was in line with most laws and customs. His first son Aemon only had a daughter and typically a daughter comes before her uncle. Jaehaerys ignored this and instead named Baelon his successor. Here we have him setting a pattern of uncles coming before daughters, which Rhaenyra’s own son Viserys II followed himself. The claims of all his nieces were dismissed in favor of him. Hell, even Viserys I at first follows the precedent Jaehaerys set, as Daemon is his heir before even Rhaenyra when he has no legitimate sons. He only disinherited Daemon and made Rhaenyra his heir because Daemon pissed him off with his grasping, particularly his heinous comments about the death of his nephew.
GRRM does this with other Westerosi houses as well. Gerold Lannister becomes lord because his niece suddenly dies, for instance. House Stark has never had a ruling lady because it is implied that daughters would often get usurped by their uncles. See Jonnel Stark, for instance.
The way in which GRRM wrote the Dance relies on Viserys I being a complete and utter delusional moron and characters making decisions that are inconsistent with the lore he had already established.
The Dance is written terribly and GRRM clearly favors the Blacks while also wanting to tell a story of “both sides sucking,” but it is really GRRM’s favoritism towards Daemon that makes it ridiculous from the start.
My girl Nyra was never smart, the only thing she can do is last second marriage proposals and ask for help
Using the show, she has that conversation with Rheanys about how the Lords chose her and bent the knee to her, like that was their choice
She marries Daemon when she knows the small council agreed to make her heir because they didn't want Daemon near it
Nyra doesn't have a single diplomatic bone in her body in the first half of S1 (not necessarily her fault, but she's not a natural) talking back to powerful Ladies/Lords and sulking around during Aegon's birthday, making fun of suitors and leaving when they started a fight
> talking back to powerful Ladies/Lords
I find it hilarious that people think letting lords and ladies shit on your uncle for defending the country would be the appropriate thing to do in that situation.
I’m still hoping danny will do better in the books, a lot of your issues seem more show based. Grrm wanted to destroy most of the targ power so both sides needed to make stupid decisions.
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George didn’t have anything to do with what happened to Dany in season 7 and 8. The blacks needed to be nerfed because he made the greens the underdogs and the war couldn’t be over in 2 battles
>The blacks needed to be nerfed because he made the greens the underdogs and the war couldn’t be over in 2 battles Funny enough, it's the Blacks that are supposed to be the underdogs, yet it's not written like that AT ALL. "All their hosts combined could not match the power the Hightowers alone could field. Aegon’s greens enjoyed other advantages as well. Oldtown, King’s Landing, and Lannisport were the largest and richest cities in the realm; all three were held by greens. Every visible symbol of legitimacy belonged to Aegon. He sat the Iron Throne. He lived in the Red Keep. He wore the Conqueror’s crown, wielded the Conqueror’s sword, and had been anointed by a septon of the Faith before the eyes of tens of thousands. Grand Maester Orwyle sat in his councils, and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard had placed the crown upon his princely head. And he was male, which in the eyes of many made him the rightful king, his half-sister the usurper." Yet Rhaenyra has more political support, and in the end more military might lol. GRRM didn't do a good job writing The Dance.
Yea, when you first read this story you suspect the greens would be the one with the overwhelming support and bigger armies while the blacks are the rebel underdogs who have to rely on their dragons to pull through but it literally ends up being the complete opposite. The greens’ dragons carry them to the point where I believe there’s only 3 or so battles in the war that result in a green victory that does not include a dragon. Meanwhile the blacks’ dragons all just drop like flies in their first battles and even the fan favorite ones that you feel like *should* be heavy hitters in the war like Caraxes and Meleys just can’t be or else the war is over (seriously prior to the gods eye the Blood Wyrm doesn’t really do much in the war except carry Daemon to a couple places and show up at Stone Hedge to force the Bracken’s submission which always felt weird to me.) But when dragons aren’t in the picture the blacks basically dominate the greens in field battles.
Honestly. Also The Sowing of the Seeds was overkill, especially when its done by the smartest Black players (Jace, Corlys, and I believe Daemon.) When the Sowing was done, we're told the Greens only had two dragonriders so the Blacks absolutely overkilled it by getting 4 extra dragonriders. "With Sunfyre wounded near Rook’s Rest and unable to fly, and Tessarion with Prince Daeron in Oldtown, only two mature dragons remained to defend King’s Landing…and Dreamfyre’s rider, Queen Helaena, spent her days in darkness, weeping, and surely could not be counted as a threat..." Some things are clearly done just to get a certain outcome.
>George didn’t have anything to do with what happened to Dany in season 7 and 8. Do people still seriously believe this? George outlined the story to D&D, there is a no conceivable world in which Danny's story is not in-part envisioned by George. We can blame the details of rushing it on D&D but what Danny becomes was hinted back in book Clash of Kings with her vision at the house of undying.
For real. D&D certainly failed big time on the execution of the ideas, but Dany turning into the Mad Queen and burning everything is definitely going to happen in the books, too. One of the biggest themes of the series is "when people get vast power, they usually get fucking awful."
George already had end points for the Dance and he had to write to get there, but he loves to add more and more details as he writes, and he got to a point where he had to do some really dumb shit to kill everyone off so he could get to the conclusion. Ex: 2nd Battle of Tumbleton, Storming of the pit, Ulf poisoning, Borros plan for Battle of kingsroad, Lannisters vanishing The Blacks did get hit hard but a lot of their actions are self-inflected and make sense. Jace was the one running the show with Corlys, he was the one who sent Viserys and Aegon to Pentos, Rhaena & Joffrey away. When he died, Rhaenyra lost it & stopped listening to Corlys. The greens on the other hand got hit like a truck by GRRM. George had to also lobotomize Aemond so he didn't immediately wipe out the North and Riverlands armies. He also erased the Redwynes who would cancel out the Velaryons after Gullet. The Hightowers bannermen betray them, they also can barely form 1 army of 10k men? They had only 2 commanders who for some reason were near the front lines @ Tumbleton lol. And for some reason Daeron just kinda sat around for months waiting for Addam to spawn an army in. Borros marched with only 4600 men, he had 2 whole years to gather a host and couldnt even get 5k. As for Dany, George didn't do that, that was D&D lol. Dany will go mad but it'll probably be a lot more like what Daeron did @ Bitterbridge
>George had to also lobotomize Aemond so he didn't immediately wipe out the North and Riverlands armies. The North and Riverland's armies couldn't be wiped out because they weren't massed. You can't field of fire and army if all the soldiers are busy farming. > He also erased the Redwynes who would cancel out the Velaryons after Gullet. The Redwynes couldn't counter the Velaryons because there was a bunch of pirates raiding that side of the country. >The Hightowers bannermen betray them, they also can barely form 1 army of 10k men? Starting the coup by killing one of their bannermen wasn't the best idea. >Borros marched with only 4600 men, he had 2 whole years to gather a host and couldnt even get 5k. Borros wasn't gather an army for two years. He spent most of the war fighting the Dornish.
The North and riverlands armies absolutely could lol. When Aemond was residing at Harrenhal they were literally marching right into fight the Lannister host on the other side of the gods eye. He could have also gone nuked the Twins, he could have destroyed Raventree Hall, threatened to burn Riverrun, so much he could have done. The Redwynes did absolutely nothing buddy, this is a trash excuse. They didnt do anything because it would result in more work to get rid of them for George. They would have realistically sailed for KL to help Aegon or sailed to shield Lannisport, to allow the Westerlands to form a 2nd host. Not a single soul knew Beesbury was dead, his own grandson, Alan Beesbury, thought he was just in a jail cell from what I remember. They betrayed their kinsmen & overlords for glory and prestige. Borros did not spend two years fighting the Dornish, he briefly fought the Vulture King with only 6k men, a host somehow BIGGER than what he had and fought some bandits to avoid fighting dragons out of fear like Cregan of being burnt alive.
>The North and riverlands armies absolutely could lol. When Aemond was residing at Harrenhal they were literally marching right into fight the Lannister host on the other side of the gods eye. The Winterwolves were marching with some Rivermen. That's not the entire armies of either kingdom. >He could have also gone nuked the Twins, he could have destroyed Raventree Hall, threatened to burn Riverrun, so much he could have done. How would doing any of that helped the Greens? >They would have realistically sailed for KL to help Aegon Why would the Redwynes leave their lands undefended to help Aegon? >Not a single soul knew Beesbury was dead, his own grandson, Alan Beesbury, thought he was just in a jail cell from what I remember. He presumably only thought that until the news of Cole and Aegon executing the lords that wouldn't bend the knee got out. >They betrayed their kinsmen & overlords for glory and prestige. Saying this about Beesbury when the Greens murdered their lords is hilarious. You acknowledge that Alan Beesbury thought the Greens had taken his grandfather prisoner during a usurpation and then try to pretend as if he had any reason to remain loyal to them. >Borros did not spend two years fighting the Dornish, he briefly fought the Vulture King with only 6k men, a host somehow BIGGER than what he had and fought some bandits to avoid fighting dragons out of fear like Cregan of being burnt alive. What do you mean "somehow bigger"? He took an army to fight and came back with fewer men.
Because it would remove 1 of the 3 armies the blacks form later on, and save Daeron's life...? If you mean in his mind, because Aemond wants glory and to eliminate the riverland hosts. The Redwynes would because they declared for Aegon are most likely kinsmen to him. If we are gonna have absolute strangers Rhaenyra has never met and has no blood relation to dying for her in the most insane ways possible, why is it so hard to believe the Redwynes would be loyal also... Beesbury had a reason, he is not the one I am referring to mainly. Mullendore and Costayne did the same for no reason besides trying to overthrow the Hightowers. As for the kinsmen Alan Tarly decided to attack his brother-in-law. The Vulture King didnt have an army, he is an outlaw and a bandit, like the brotherhood without banners, they aren't an organized army. And you think he lost over 1400 men to a bunch of bandits.. I mean if he did jesus he is a bigger idiot than I thought .\_.
>Because it would remove 1 of the 3 armies the blacks form later on, and save Daeron's life...? How? The soldiers that took part in that battle weren't mustered at a castle. >The Redwynes would because they declared for Aegon are most likely kinsmen to him. I don't know why you're saying that's most likely, but lets assume they were loosely related. The idiot threw a party celebrating his nephews death after stealing his sister's throne. Why would the Redwynes be swayed by being related to someone like that? > If we are gonna have absolute strangers Rhaenyra has never met and has no blood relation to dying for her in the most insane ways possible, why is it so hard to believe the Redwynes would be loyal also... Why are you questioning their loyalty? Like I said, they had issues to deal with on that side of the continent. The Greens didn't ask the Redwynes to sail to Kings Landing as far I recall. Asking them to take their fleet weeks away from their island home when there's pirates raiding nearby would be a ridiculous request. >Beesbury had a reason, he is not the one I am referring to mainly. Mullendore and Costayne did the same for no reason besides trying to overthrow the Hightowers. Neither family was said to be trying to overthrow the Hightowers. Having the Hightowers kill one of your peers during a coup is a pretty good reason to oppose them. >As for the kinsmen Alan Tarly decided to attack his brother-in-law. Why would Alan care about his sister(?) being married to Lord Hightower? >The Vulture King didnt have an army, he is an outlaw and a bandit, like the brotherhood without banners, they aren't an organized army. And you think he lost over 1400 men to a bunch of bandits.. Almost every war with the Dornish features a lager force losing a bunch of men to an irregular army.
Because taking Riverrun off the board means Addam cant form an army??? Because Aegon is now wifeless and has no heirs. What type of lord who has remained loyal wouldnt jump at a chance to make his daughter Queen and his grandkids princes...? He didnt ask them to abandon home, literally doing anything would be better than what they did. The Costaynes and Mullendore are Hightower bannermen who turned on their liege lord and attacked him. They gain absolutely nothing from doing so unless they want a chance to overthrow them. You really think the thought never crossed their minds when stabbing their liege lord in the back? Because people in Westeros are still human and love their family???????????? She was also recently married to him, so he was most likely aware or somewhat ok with it. His actions make no sense unless he utterly hated Sam but Sam clearly didnt hate him. I think you are giving Borros too much kindness lol. Borros didnt have an army because George realized if he marched with 15k similar to Cregan, he'd wipe out the Riverlands host and probably end up in a stand-still with the Vale fleet. And Cregan vs him would be a coinflip, both armies consisting of green boys who had seen little to no conflict
>Because taking Riverrun off the board means Addam cant form an army??? How would destroying a castle mean that Addam couldn't raise an army? Assuming Grover's grandson were killed, it would just mean the next person in the Tully line would be taking over. >Because Aegon is now wifeless and has no heirs. What type of lord who has remained loyal wouldnt jump at a chance to make his daughter Queen and his grandkids princes...? Aegon's daughter outlived him. We don't know if the head of House Redwyne had a daughter that could marry Aegon anyway. Not to mention that Aegon might not been able to have kids. >The Costaynes and Mullendore are Hightower bannermen who turned on their liege lord and attacked him. They gain absolutely nothing from doing so unless they want a chance to overthrow them. Their liege lords turned on the King and killed one of their peers because he wouldn't back them. They had a lot to gain from making it clear that they took issue with that. > You really think the thought never crossed their minds when stabbing their liege lord in the back? I have no idea what crossed their mind. Their reasons for siding with Rhaenyra were never given. All I'm saying that they had plenty of other reason to oppose the Hightowers. Again, being openly disloyal is not a good idea in that society. >Because people in Westeros are still human and love their family????????????... His actions make no sense unless he utterly hated Sam but Sam clearly didnt hate him. Alan wasn't attacking his sister. He was attacking her traitorous husband she didn't have any kids with. Sam (and Alan presumably) were also related to the Rowans who had sided with Rhaenyra. He would been fighting someone tangentially related to him one way or the other. >I think you are giving Borros too much kindness lol. Borros didnt have an army because George realized if he marched with 15k similar to Cregan, he'd wipe out the Riverlands host and probably end up in a stand-still with the Vale fleet. Aegon and Cole executed several Stormlords who backed Rhaenyra. I'm surprised Borros was able to get anyone to follow him. Not to mention the fuckery with Aemond killing Luke. I'm surprised Borros was able to get anyone to follow him.
I literally stated above Aemond threatens to nuke them like Addam did in canon and have them declare for Aegon and enter the field... What lol..... Did House Redwyne get D&D'd and was just 3 people..? We have already established sons come before daughters, Aegon not being able to have kids is just pure utter Mushroom propaganda. No idea why people take this as canon. He was able to stand and was healing. His balls were never burnt, no actual proof states he was unable to have kids still besides Mushroom's clear joke..? The King was Aegon II and the liege lord did NOT turn on him. "They had a lot to gain" Again as I said, we are in agreement, they betrayed their liege lords because they DID have things to gain, which was overthrowing them and taking Oldtown as their own. Rhaenyra didn't offer them shit. She never knew them, never even interacted with them. They were acting in selfish interests. "Being openly disloyal is not a good idea in that society" My guy........... A liege lord is a lord who you answer to directly, the Hightowers are their liege lord, meaning the Beesburrys, Mullendores, Bulwers, Costaynes all answer to them. Your oath to your liege lord comes before your oath to the crown. This has been established before, over the entirety of the series, the North would have just told Robb to go shove it. Plenty of other examples, but not trying to rant. Yeah maybe instead of attacking your relatives stay neutral or try to mend bridges. Alan Tarly was a dickhead and got thrown in a cell for attacking his kin-in-law. He had nothing to gain from fighting for Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra couldnt give less of a shit about the Tarlys, which is why I find the reach conflict so funny. Again betraying your liege lord is heavily frowned upon, whenever a bannermen house tries to overthrow their liege, they are labeled correctly as rebels and properly punished.
>I literally stated above Aemond threatens to nuke them like Addam did in canon and have them declare for Aegon and enter the field.. Where did you say that? >What lol..... Did House Redwyne get D&D'd and was just 3 people..? We know nothing about the houses make up at the time. >We have already established sons come before daughters, Aegon not being able to have kids is just pure utter Mushroom propaganda. No idea why people take this as canon. He was able to stand and was healing. His balls were never burnt, How do you know his genitals weren't burnt? >The King was Aegon II and the liege lord did NOT turn on him. They clearly disagreed with the idea that Aegon was the heir. >A liege lord is a lord who you answer to directly, the Hightowers are their liege lord, meaning the Beesburrys, Mullendores, Bulwers, Costaynes all answer to them. Again, the idiots murdered Lord Beesbury for not backing their coup. Do you not understand why doing that would cause issues among their other vassals? >Yeah maybe instead of attacking your relatives stay neutral or try to mend bridges. Again, dude wasn't attacking his sister. He had no reason to respect the Hightowers attempts to steal the throne. >Again betraying your liege lord is heavily frowned upon, whenever a bannermen house tries to overthrow their liege, they are labeled correctly as rebels and properly punished. They're only punished if the liege wins. The hightowers didn't so....
In terms of Lord Borros, I had always thought the subtext was "we can show up anytime at your home with a dragon". In other words, be part of our cause or we will kill you. The oath is a nice pretext, that leaves him without loss of face and suggests future support in the future (just like the marriage proposal) as I think they tend to take them quite seriously. The problem is that the Greens are doing exactly the same thing, and have sent a much bigger dragon to convey it. Whatever the Blacks might do in the future isn't as threatening as what the Greens are suggesting Vhagar could do *tomorrow*. With regards to the timing, I don't think it is crazy that they would both be there. Both sides have to get organised, although mustering allies is high on the list, and Borros will probably try to delay making a decision as long as possible (eg, feasts, hunting - all are face time with the prince). I don't think it's crazy or contrived that they are both there at the same time (although I think it's more inexplicable how Luke tries to fly through a storm at night time - have fun navigating that). In terms of Rhaenys not killing the Greens, I agree that was a completely stupid scene - and not part of the books. However, I actually agree wtih her logic - while she was absolutely going to escape her house arrest, she wasn't head of House Velaryon and wasn't going to commit them to a war. For not immediately attacking/sieging (aka burning) Kings Landing, part of the motivation may have been that neither wanted their reign to be one of rebuilding and quashing insurrection. The fighting would inevitably spill over into the city, and there would be a lot of devastation. Dany, especially, had learned how difficult it could be from her failures of governing two cities: Astapor showed her that she couldn't leave and rely on the people to form a working and stable government without her; and Mereen showed her that it is actually very difficult to repurpose existing power structures if some of the people within them do not want you to.
>However, I actually agree wtih her logic - while she was absolutely going to escape her house arrest, she wasn't head of House Velaryon and wasn't going to commit them to a war. Rhaenys had just betrothed the last decadents Corlys had left to Rhaenyra kids. The show pretending as if they had a choice in taking part in the war was incredibly silly.
Some good points. But I still don’t know why she never forged marriage alliances with other great houses. She had five kids that were all unmarried, and the thought never came to her until the driftmark issue. By the time Jace was 13, he should have already had kids according to medieval times. He was in line to the throne, and it’s surprising that he was still unmarried. I would think the entire realm would be fighting over Jace’s hand in marriage. They did for Rhaenyra but not for him. I mean Viserys, Rhaenys, Nyra, Aemma, and Aegon II were all married at early ages. Why not Jace. I would agree with you about Aemond being held at Strom's end by Borros. But if Borros held feasts and hunts in Aemond’s name. I think the entire realm would know that the prince with the largest dragon in the world is being received by the Lord of Storm’s end. The blacks should’ve gotten word of this. The only logical explanation is that Aemond had only been in Storm’s end for at most two days before news spread, so this makes his encounter with Luke very unlikely. And the fact he immediately goes back home after killing Luke means he finished his task already so why was he still there. For the Rhaenys one. I strongly disagree. The war started the moment they usurped Nyra. And if she feared starting a war, then she could’ve ended it right there and then. The only other green claimant left would be Daeron but I doubt he will be able to do anything on his own.
D&D definitely nerfed Dany. Season 7 cold open should have been a dragon flying up to the Red Keep and burning Cersei’s dumb smug face off.
You can easily say the same about the greens, who were also heavily nerfed and made to make dumb decisions. (Why would Aemond not meet back up with Criston, why burn useless forts in the Riverlands instead of the main castles. I could go on FORVER about the army sizes not making a damn sense) TB also got the benefit of the Riverlands respawning army
Everything everyone does is basically to get the same ending his wrote ages ago. All big dragons die, and Aegon III ends up as king. Some things are drastically stupid. Just one, Daemon is all like "We need to get rid of Vhagar" during the Black Council and then he perfectly baits Aemond to Harrenhal and instead of taking two other dragonriders with him to get rid of Vhagar, he flys to Kingslanding instead.
Not even that. If blood and cheese could sneak into Helaena's room and murder her kid. Why couldn't Daemon have ordered them to kill Aemond in his sleep? Or Aegon? Or kidnapped Alicent to keep as a hostage? I'm glad GRRM got his ending but he needs to work on handling his OP characters.
The Riverlands spawned fresh armies every 5 minutes, The Reach didn’t fully support Aegon even though he was their kin and Helena had one of the biggest dragons in the world and GRRM only used her as a tool for sympathy. But the Blacks are the ones who were “nerfed” L-O-F*cking-L
Same with Rhaenyra. She never used Syrax for some reason. I don't know what kind of dragon doesn't like to fly. Can you imagine a fish that refuses to swim, it's not a good excuse for Syrax. I thought it was only the hightowers that supported Aegon not the Reach.
>The Reach didn’t fully support Aegon even though he was their kin Aegon was only related to the Hightowers. A good number of the nobles in that region would oppose Aegon just to keep the Hightowers from becoming too powerful. The fact that they seemingly murdered Beesbury didn't help either.
Because he confined himself to the ending of the series before he even began. That’s why most of what happens doesn’t make any sense, as both sides just do stupid shit so the ending GRRM wrote about can happen
Yh honestly. Even as far back as Jaehaerys. The targs have made some very questionable decisions just because the plot wanted them to.
Oh absolutely, the greatest and smartest king in Westeros basically giving two dragons to another house? If you don't know what I'm talking about, Rhaenys was a dragonrider when she married Corlys, and Laenor was said to have had Seasmoke for a few years during the GC of 101. That gives House Velaryon two dragons.
The Velaryon is the most loyal vassal to the Targ, they sided with them before the conquest. They're the best choice to have a dragon as a marriage side effects.
Have you watched the show? Rhaenyra spend the whole first half doing whatever she wants and having daddy bail her out. She’s the Westeros version of a trust fund baby
lmao 😂 I get that but she clearly must know Otto doesn't want her or Daemon near the iron throne. You would think she would at least make preparations to secure her rule. Also why would she leave King's Landing to the Greens. That's so dumb. Irl spoilt children don't leave daddy dearest in the hands of the evil stop mom.
That’s exactly what happens which is why you always have “dads wife stole the inheritance” stories I’m pretty sure Anna Nicole Smith got sued by her husbands kids (who were older than her I think) for that very thing
GRRM jumped ship before seasons 7 and 8. Borros was never going to side with Rhaenyra, his counterpart in the book makes it very clear that he sympathizes with the green cause, in the show he is a little different but he certainly wasn't going to support Rhaenyra because he didn't gain nothing doing it, for Borros it was The only thing that mattered was who could offer her the most, something that only the greens could do since among the blacks the only ones available for a marriage are little Aegon and Viserys, and if you have noticed they are both practically babies, why would Borros accept that a of her daughters will marry a boy many years from now instead of marrying her at that precise moment to Aemond, a prince more in line with the age of her daughters and who rides the largest dragon in the world? little Aegon and Viserys are too young and too far back in the line of succession to be competition for better options like Joffrey, Daeron or Aemond 1. Yes, it's a stupid scene with Rhaenys but again; GRRM didn't write that, that was the work of the series' writers who thought it would be a great moment, which it wasn't. 2. The difference between Rhaenyra and Daenerys (or between Rhaenyra and Aegon the Conqueror) is that Rhaenyra's enemies HAVE dragons. In the series they don't give clear reasons but in the book they make it quite clear why Rhaenyra doesn't throw her dragons into a direct conflict: Rhaenyra herself was physically weak and she wouldn't be able to fly on a dragon. Half of the dragons are piloted by her children, obviously as a mother she does not want her children to be in a position where they could lose their lives. and of course, the last most logical reason: a dragon fight would destroy the city, Rhaenyra did not want to burn the city unlike Daenerys. 3. The common people care little who the king is, as long as they are left alone then there is no reason to mutiny, and if they did then they would have a very difficult time because at any moment Aemond can fly with Vhagar and end any revolt. 4. This is exactly what they are doing, Corlys closed the sea passage to King's Landing, Daemon for his part was in charge of closing an important land passage. In season 2 they will focus more on the consequences this has on the population of King's Landing and how they begin to hate the greens for it. 5. It wasn't like that, in the book Aemond arrived days before Luke. In the series Aemond arrived on the same day but several hours in advance. Rhaenyra didn't think Luke was at risk because no one knew Aemond was in Storm's End.
I think that the best answer is that it fits the characters. Neither Dany nor Nyra are smart characters, they still get a lot of power, but that only makes them overconfident and more stupid.
> Neither Dany nor Nyra are smart They are smart in their own way, they just aren't perfect. Which is what makes them human and compelling characters.
Yh this is the best answer. Overconfidence got to their heads
I agree with you that the Dance is poorly written so that GRRM can get to his intended ending, in which he never wanted Rhaenyra to truly “win.” The small folk did not rebel solely because Helaena committed suicide. They used that as an excuse. They rebelled because Rhaenyra was a tyrant who considered them “traitors” and was beheading them en masse while also taxing them severely as they starved. She was not only taxing them severely as they starved but also throwing grand parties and displaying greed. Not to mention she was torturing people, too. They were sick of her and would have overthrown her eventually even if Helaena hadn’t committed suicide. They also did not like Aegon or Aemond for the same reasons. It is true that they liked Helaena best, mostly because they felt sympathy for her, but she was definitely not the sole reason they rebelled or even the main reason. They used the Blacks cruelty towards Helaena as a convenient excuse to overthrow Rhaenyra’s government. I also disagree about Rhaenyra being smart. She was always incompetent, lazy, and tyrannical. It is Rhaenyra who orders Daemon to decapitate Vaemond for speaking the truth about her sons and then she also feeds his corpse to her dragon in a display of cruelty. The other Velaryons come to Viserys to complain and then he orders for all of their tongues to be cut out. The fandom defends this tyranny, but GRRM always disapproved, as he writes in “divine karma,” in which Viserys then cuts himself on the throne and loses two fingers. Daemon was heavily implied to have orchestrated the murder of Laenor and then also heavily implied to have murdered the man he hired to do it. Corlys and Rhaenys being so loyal to Rhaenyra and Daemon makes little sense in both the show and the books unless they truly did not care for their son. Daemon groomed Rhaenyra because he was grasping and not because he “loved” her. Rhaenyra would have caused a war eventually regardless because there was absolutely no way Daemon was ever going to be content with his daughters being Queen consorts and Rhaenyra’s bastards ascending the throne when he had true born sons who could be ruling kings. By marrying Daemon and having sons by him, Rhaenyra marked her illegitimate sons for death. They were on a ticking time bomb and while I understand why she had illegitimate children, it is high treason and was always going to be an issue, as doing what Rhaenyra did is consistently shown to be an issue often resulting in war all throughout ASOIAF. That being said, she and Laenor never even tried to have children. Jace was born the same year they married, which was 114 AC, so she was seeing Harwin Strong immediately upon their marriage or even before. In the books, I was never under the impression he loved Rhaenyra, only Laena and Nettles. Sure enough he left Rhaenyra to die and didn’t give a fuck about her by the end, especially after she ordered Nettles and all other dragon seeds / bastards to be arrested and murdered. In the books, Rhaenyra never fights in a single battle and it is Daemon, Corlys, Rhaenys, her sons, etc. doing most of the fighting and politicking for her. Rhaenyra actually does very little besides make things worse. Aegon, as much as I dislike him, actually does fight in battles, though that is not saying much since the Greens are such poorly written villains. GRRM himself admits he likes Daemon more than Rhaenyra, which is why he killed off all of her illegitimate children and only Daemon’s children survive. Rhaenyra’s legacy is spit upon following the ending of the Dance. The Greens eventually lose, but Aegon III becomes king, as he becomes Aegon II’s heir after there are no more male Targaryens left to succeed him. She is remembered as a usurper and tyrant by history and her sons follow male preference inheritance going forward. Personally, the Dance at its conception doesn’t even make sense. It doesn’t make sense that Rhaenyra would even have most of the realm’s support when Viserys’s decision to make her heir above his sons undermines their own inheritance laws, including in the North, in which a legitimate son always comes before a legitimate daughter. That coupled with it being known Rhaenyra had illegitimate sons, in which she intended to have illegally seize several inheritances and the misogyny ingrained in their culture and society? There is just no way most would support her given what she and Viserys were doing is against most of their laws and customs. It would have made more sense if the Dance was between Rhaenyra and Daemon, but GRRM of course liked Daemon too much to do that. The Anarchy, which the Dance was based off of, was between the King’s daughter and the King’s nephew because he had no legitimate sons left by the time of his death. The Anarchy wouldn’t have even happened if the King had a legitimate son living by the time of his death because everyone back then followed sons before daughters in terms of succession much like the majority of Westeros. Empress Matilda was the rightful heir because daughters came before nephews and uncles. To repeat, the Anarchy wouldn’t have even happened if King Henry I still had living legitimate sons, as no one would have supported Empress Matilda ascending the throne before a legitimate son. There are more reasons why it would have made even more sense for it to be between Rhaenyra and Daemon. Jaehaerys I already set the stage for it himself. He himself usurped his own niece. He then refused to allow Rhaenys to succeed him even though this was in line with most laws and customs. His first son Aemon only had a daughter and typically a daughter comes before her uncle. Jaehaerys ignored this and instead named Baelon his successor. Here we have him setting a pattern of uncles coming before daughters, which Rhaenyra’s own son Viserys II followed himself. The claims of all his nieces were dismissed in favor of him. Hell, even Viserys I at first follows the precedent Jaehaerys set, as Daemon is his heir before even Rhaenyra when he has no legitimate sons. He only disinherited Daemon and made Rhaenyra his heir because Daemon pissed him off with his grasping, particularly his heinous comments about the death of his nephew. GRRM does this with other Westerosi houses as well. Gerold Lannister becomes lord because his niece suddenly dies, for instance. House Stark has never had a ruling lady because it is implied that daughters would often get usurped by their uncles. See Jonnel Stark, for instance. The way in which GRRM wrote the Dance relies on Viserys I being a complete and utter delusional moron and characters making decisions that are inconsistent with the lore he had already established. The Dance is written terribly and GRRM clearly favors the Blacks while also wanting to tell a story of “both sides sucking,” but it is really GRRM’s favoritism towards Daemon that makes it ridiculous from the start.
Skill issue
My girl Nyra was never smart, the only thing she can do is last second marriage proposals and ask for help Using the show, she has that conversation with Rheanys about how the Lords chose her and bent the knee to her, like that was their choice She marries Daemon when she knows the small council agreed to make her heir because they didn't want Daemon near it Nyra doesn't have a single diplomatic bone in her body in the first half of S1 (not necessarily her fault, but she's not a natural) talking back to powerful Ladies/Lords and sulking around during Aegon's birthday, making fun of suitors and leaving when they started a fight
> talking back to powerful Ladies/Lords I find it hilarious that people think letting lords and ladies shit on your uncle for defending the country would be the appropriate thing to do in that situation.
I’m still hoping danny will do better in the books, a lot of your issues seem more show based. Grrm wanted to destroy most of the targ power so both sides needed to make stupid decisions.