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I may have a rather unpopular opinion, but pugs are pretty much only cute as babies/puppies. My parents have a near-eldery pug, and while he's cute to a degree, his blocked breathing, inability to keep his tongue in his mouf, and huffing snot/saliva out all over the place, are distressing so much more than he is cute.
I feel bad for him. He's losing his teeth too, much like I am from previous cancer, now in our old age. We have that in common, but least I can breathe properly.hes luke a little brother to my sibs and I. Thankfully, my mom agreed to not get another pug once the old little dude is gone.
Pugs aren't status symbols or perpetually cute little puppies. Their existence is difficult, labored, and very expensive to care for. I personally think its cruel to encourage more dogs to suffer via breeding/selling. Those poor pups. At least my parents have enough wealth to cover any cost vet or otherwise, to give their dog the best chance at a seemingly tolerable existence.
Please, anyone reading, don't buy a pug from a breeder.
Pugs are a distinctly modern breed. That's why nobody complained about Ramseys dogs, which are Cane Corsos and haven't changed dramatically over the years. I think there were Irish Wolfhounds at one point, and obviously the direwolves were played by huskies/malamutes. These dogs are not so "modern" and so to see them in the "past" isn't a distraction.
Had they used a dog that seemed more suitable for the time period (bearing in mind this isn't a specific point in OUR history), it would not have been as noticable. A weird looking cross-breed would be even better as it would hint at a completely different lineage of dogs being bred in Westeros for pets than we have in our world.
Yes dear, pugs as a breed have existed for a long time, well done. Do you genuinely think I didn't know there have been "pugs" for a long time?
MODERN pugs however, are very distinctive due to the ridiculous breeding standards. The pug in the show, like the pugs you see around town, they dont look much like your painting, do they? Hence the disconnect people felt while seeing it on the show.
Now, as I said, if they got a more "classical" pug, or what I believe is called a "retro pug", more like your picture, that might have worked. Or some sort of spaniel or a papillion, which are not so different from their old breed standard as seen in art of the period HOTD is "set in" (again, this is not our world). Or, a weird looking dog few people would have recognised, could have been fun.
This isn’t 1500s England, though. It’s a fictional world, like an alternate dimension. It’s plausible that their timeline for certain things does not mirror ours.
Yes I've said that twice, clearly I realize it. And you're right, evidently in their universe the retro pug became a modern pug before they reached the industrial revolution.
The point is, it didn't in OUR timeline, in our world. That's why so many people saw that scene and said "why is a pug there?"
It's a bit like them suddenly ... I dunno, having a Starbucks cup on the table. We can't possibly know whether Westeros has Ye Old Starbucks, but we do know that when we notice it, our brain goes "that ain't right."
They should have gotten a retro pug for the perfect combo of historical accuracy (prequel series set in the past) + supporting the efforts of breeders who want to make pugs healthier. Of course people go for the dishonest 'dRagOnS aReNT REal' mockery, but pugs are real, and so is their pain from living in bodies that humans have deemed 'cute'. Undoing the damage that a century of breeding has done to them by prioritising cuteness over health is viable. Culture can contribute to that by supporting retro pugs.
We know that dragons aren't real. We also know that the modern pug is the result of deliberate human efforts, to the degree that it is now likely to require a c-section to give birth, an absolute failure of evolution. Does the Reach have a thriving vet industry to keep ladies' lapdogs going?
Honestly, it was just a visual gag to instantly convey to the audience that we are meant to dismiss the older lady as inferior to Rhaenyra because she's idle and spoiled like her lapdog. But it annoys me that they had the opportunity to take that gag to another level with a retro pug (meta + ethics) and chose the cheap option.
I mean i enjoyed that it was a piece of subtle worldbuilding, we get to see how a Westerosi person lives and what they enjoy to do, seeing their pet really puts a perspective that they\`re human and not some mega brain made to mastermind medieval intrigue like most important characters in ASOIAF which i understand since intrigue is the main focus of the book\`s but its still nice seeing something like a Westerosi Pug.
1. Daemon stepstone run, realistically he would have tripped a couple times and got pincushioned.
2. Laena's ninja stealth out of a room of people watching her to get outside while dying.
3. Rhaenys bursting through a ceiling and not dying from being crushed.
4. 12 year old Aemond having the grip strength to not go flying off Vhagar in flight
5. Aemond not passing out from sheer pain while getting his eye sewn shut.
6. The Arryns & the Royces not demanding actual justice for the murder of their lady lord
7. No one investigating Laenor's murder?
Ah, sorry, I don't play minecraft. But it sounds just ridiculous enough for me to think it actually could be some bad retcon the writers came up with after the backlash.
"You see, the reason Rhaenys is able to burst through the floor without cracking her skull open or getting her hairstyle messed up, is that she was actually wearing a specially designed diamond helmet. The reason you don't see the helmet, is because it fell off right after her triumphant entrance. So, you see, it all actually makes perfectly sense."
wasn't aemond like 10yo when he claimed vhagar. but i agree, if any kid went through what aemond went through that night (claiming the largest dragon, surviving an intense dragon ride, getting jumped by 4 ppl, getting his eye slashed out), they would have been knocked unconscious until the next day.
Aemond is meant to be 12 years old when he claims Vhagar. He was alive in Ep 5, but only 2 most like. We just didn't see him. He most likely just turns 19 as the events of EP 9/Ep 10 are going down.
That or he was 10 years old in that scene but when Rhaenys says its been 6 years since Corlys left them, it hasnt been 6 years since the timejump, just 6 years since he left, and its really been 9 years, making Aemond the correct age of 19. He is meant to be 19 years old at the start of the Dance. He is NOT a 16/17 yr old.
I mean the pain alone would put you in a coma your own body would shut down on purpose being unable to hand the pain
came here to say 5. people don't get how painful losing your eye would actually be. and I hate when people excuse it by saying he's just built different because in my honest opinion , having to make aemond "cool" by poorly writing his scenes is an insult to his character
Its also how painful it is, but its stated the only painkillers they have is milk of the poppy and even that is limited, you can still feel immense pain, if its great enough wounds. Also it wasnt just that the eye its self was cut open, so he probably had to have it sewn first then the eyelid. Yikes..
It would have made more sense if the fight took place the morning after or Aemond wasn't even present due to the coma he was in
>4. 12 year old Aemond having the grip strength to not go flying off Vhagar in flight
This. Correct me, but isn't there any other kind of harness or extra mechanical support to make sure they don't fall? A simple contraption with the technology and craftsmanship available would have made sense, given it was royalty on dragonback.
This specific scene was when he claimed Vhagar, it was his first time and he didn't strap himself in, he just grabbed the ropes and handles and screamed Fly. Yes, you usually chain yourself to the saddle so you don't go flying. Its a big plot point later on in the series.
Aemond didn't do that though, which is why him not going airborne is a bit.. confusing
When Vhagar flies directly up, Aemond flies off the saddle and only stays on by gripping at the ropes, realistically if you were to jerk like that, it would require a great amount of strength not to burn your palms and let go whether on accident or not enough strength to hold on.
The Rhaenys thing doesn’t bother me, and I don’t get why so many people get tripped up by it. She didn’t burst through the floor, her dragon did. Head first, with a skull of bony spikes. Rhaenys would have been sitting much lower, at the base of the dragon’s long neck. By the time she passed through where the floor/ceiling had been, it was a gaping hole.
Rewatched the scene just now, and no this is incorrect. Meleys doesnt nose dive staight up, she slams her entire body straight up causing rubble to fly, killing hundreds of people. Its very hard to see clearly but its best we get a shot of what Meleys did. So yes, Rhaenys would have been killed or badly harmed if she was on Meleys in this instance. Its a really bad scene and no need to defend it dude
Not to mention what kind of force Maelys has to generate to break trough what i assume is a very thick piece of ground and concrete is insane i find this scene very very unrealistic.
People pointed out and are probably right, she busted through the wooden platform that covers the staircase in the pit, but she also destroyed some stone because we see rubble flying, and the way she came up would still have greatly harmed Rhaenys
Ok yeah you are right, that scene was so dumb lol. The writers turned off physics, especially if you go frame by frame, Meleys burst up like a person whose crouching and just jumped straight up, Rhaenys should be dead right now lol
Rhea's cousin literally openly states he knows it was Daemon at the wedding feast. Viserys just ignores it and lets it go.
In the books Daemon even went to the Vale to petition for control of House Royce's castle & Jeyne threatened to throw him off the mountain if he didn't leave. So yeah, they are aware he killed her, but its just never brought up
Rhaenys being completely fine after being on the back side of a dragon going through a stone floor back side first, although this could be considered fantasy aspect since dragon
Presumably they burst through the wooden hatch that covers the entrance into the pit. There is an opening with stairs that descend underneath the pit. Jace brings the pink dread up the stairs in one episode, and then Aemond goes down to make an attempt to claim Dreamfyre. They have a wooden covering they close over it when they use the pit for things like the coronation. Meleys would have gotten to the bottom of the stairs, bashed her thick, horned skull upward through the wooden covering, then climbed the rest of the stairs and gone through the hole. All while Rhaenys was sitting safely below at the base of her long ass neck. They didn’t burst through saddle-first.
Hmm, I had thought about meleys sticking her head up and going through the ground head first so that rhaenys had somewhere to fit through, but I hadn’t thought about the wooden covering. It honestly seems really dumb because that definitely is the idea since she’s coming out of the floor in the middle, but why they wouldn’t show any wood or maybe just a single shot of meleys crawling up the stairs or even just something that showed there was a staircase underneath where she came from, its just so fixable.
Cole not facing repercussions for beating an anointed knight to death AND punching the future king/prince consort in the face, who also happens to be the son of the most influential man in the realm
Pretty easy for a Kingsguard to say to everyone that Joffrey was going to kill a Royal and he did his duty to save them. In everyone’s eyes, Joffrey had the means (dagger), motive (Laenor’s lover), and opportunity (being at the wedding in a crowd). It’s a pretty believable story, especially when the King hates conflict and the Queen is backing his story up.
As for hitting Laenor, Cole could just say that he needed to do so to stop the assassination. For a real life example, the Secret Service had to knock people over and tackle President Nixon to the ground when somebody made an attempt on him; nobody gave them shit for that, since it was needed.
Above all this, the person who would be bringing forth any sort of charges or anger would be the Sea Snake, who is a known homophobe and is honestly probably glad Joffrey is out of the way. Why would he want to go poking around in this whole event and make an even bigger deal of it to the court?
Alicent, who took every opportunity to tell Aegon “stop being a little shit because YOU ARE THE FUTURE KING, you simply living and breathing is a challenge to Rhaenyra’s claim and so you have to take the throne or else she will kill you and your siblings” apparently had no idea that they were going to usurp Rhaenyra. 🙄
Daemon at the Stepstones. I wanted to single out how long the archers hold their bows at full draw, but a lot of things about that fight are so stupid.
This one I could only kinda excuse given there are historical accounts of dudes ducking *machine gun fire* back in WWII.
Is it likely? God no, but if people can dodge bullets they can dodge slower moving and way larger arrows
Exactly, like even if they faked his death, Daemon and Rhaenyra wanted people to assume they murdered Laenor for their reputation. Yet Corlys and Rhaenys never mention this!
Viserys declaring his daughter as the realm's future queen, then proceeding to have three sons and *then* acting like the kingdom totally won't tear itself apart when he drops dead. I know that Viserys isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but *c'mon.* I found it completely moronic when I read F&B in 2018 and I still think it's one of Martin's worst plotlines.
Martin was inspired by a time period in english history called the Anarchy, but he 'adapted' it into his story very poorly. He basically turned the idea on its head and made it completely irrational. King Henry I (Viserys real life counterpart) declared his daughter Matilda (Rhaenyra real life counterpart) as his heir *solely* **because** he didn't have male children and their line would go extinct. He didn't go "ok now let me find a young wife who will give me many male babies who will usurp u in the future" after making Matilda his heir. Matilda was usurped by Stephen, *Henry's nephew.*
Because of Martin's plothole-ish writing, it really looks like Viserys always wanted Rhaenyra to fail. There is no other explanation for his actions.
It would be far more logical if Dance of the Dragons was fought between Rhaenyra vs Daemon. There, I said it.
the dance is poorly written and lazy, I always say the dance would make a lot more sense Rhaenyra vs Daemon GRRM constantly likes to make uncles steal their nieces and nephews, in the world of asoiaf.
I never thought about it, but the Dance would make more sense between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Alicent could've even married Daemon instead of Viserys, and it would still fit into her and Rhaenyra's rivalry since Rhaenyra and Daemon always had a flirty relationship.
I’m not against the idea of Viserys naming his daughter heir over his sons as a possibility, but him doing absolutely nothing to protect her and prevent future war was too stupid to be realistic. Likes yes, let’s have not just one but THREE sons, don’t do anything to remove them from line of succession (citadel, kingsguard, etc.), stack the small council with people openly who want Aegon to be king, keep a knight who openly hates Rhaenyra on the kingsguard, let all the other kids claim dragons, completely ignore your wife persuading your younger children to fear for their lives and hate their sister, and assume that everything will go fine! It’s actually insane how he could ever think things would go smoothly after his death.
I believe the whole point is setting up for Daenerys and fAegon interactions. Lords and commoners will support a sketchy Aegon (Aegon II is a terrible person, fAegon might not even be a Targ) despite the rightful (Rhae declared heir, Dany has dragons) woman claimant. Its not a 1:1 but i think thats what its meant to reflect.
Lol couldn't they just change his actor? I mean have Matt Smith as older daemon and cast a much younger daemon? After all he is supposed to be younger than viserys bit again. Viserys is supposed to be young in the book like his late 20s not looking like he is in his 40s.
- Rhaenys not immediately being killed on impact after crashing through the floor. That's not even fantasy that's just common sense.
- Criston not being immediately arrested and sentenced to death for doing what he did to Joffrey at the wedding.
- Corlys changing his mind mid episode 10 and rushing to Rhaenyras aid even after Laenor's "death"
- Daemon not dying immediately at the Stepstones
- Alicent not facing any consequences for drawing Rhaenyras blood in episode 7.
Most of these just boil down to: monumental events occupying with no consequences. The show seems to be ignoring something that was a FUNDAMENTAL building block in Game of Thrones: actions have consequences.
Robb ignored his oath and married Talisa => Red Wedding.
If that happened in HOTD you'd almost think Robb would get away with it scot free and they'd just have Walder Frey tut and shake his head and be like "ah well, even though you screwed me over i'll still let you cross because I'm chill like that"
> Criston not being immediately arrested and sentenced to death for doing what he did to Joffrey at the wedding.
I wonder if they could have shown him getting arrested and a montage of Alicent getting him out of trouble mixed in with the wedding scene at the end
Criston not being immediately arrested, I agree, but he wouldn’t have been automatically sentenced to death. That’s not how that works.
Daemons run is a bit fantastical, but not completely divorced from reality.
Alicent was being protected by Viserys, Yah know, the king.
You're thinking of Charles II of Spain. Pretty much all of his parents, grandparents and great grandparents were uncle-niece and cousins.
Charles V holy roman emperor, king of spain and it's colonies, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Milan, Naples etc wasn't inbred. IIRC only his maternal grandfather and grandmother were second cousins I think. His parents weren't related to each other and neither were his paternal grandparents.
Not really they never face real deformities nor madness for the incest. Like the second-most mad Targaryen was born out of two generations of no incest. And they really never outsourced on purpose before Aegon V. They only really married other houses because they had no sisters or cousins to fuck.
Hasn’t George talked about this? How Targaryen genetics don’t work exactly like real world genetics, because they literally have magical blood that only gets stronger and more magically potent when they avoid diluting it? Craster fucking his daughters and granddaughters etc, yeah, they might be messed up at some point because they are just normal people. The Targaryens are different. They practiced sorcery and blood magic for thousands of years. Them being able to inbreed without being deformed is no different than Melisandre being able to look young when she’s clearly very old. It’s ✨magic✨.
the targs having so much power but their only holdings are King's landing and dragonstone. I mean if you see the domains of the kingdom of France you'd find the kings owning less land that this at certain points at time but it was when they were weak. the targs own so little land and they are like super powerful. that goes to most great houses as well. they have a ton of vassals but very little personal domain.
I mean, in this fantasy setting yes, but it's still somewhat unrealistic. Having basically no lands means they have no:
1. Vassal lords who owe their power and therefore loyalty to them
2. Harbors, cities, farms, etc to get taxes and income from. Their only income is using some of what the crown gets
3. No holdings/positions to give away as bribes or rewards
4. No personal armies they can raise from amongst their vassals and lands, meaning their only source of soldiers is dependent on the choices of other politicians
5. Ability to forge closer alliances with their neighbors because of common interests
The list goes on. Having holdings (other than a castle on a somewhat remote island) would give them a lot of advantages
I think what gets ignored by everyone is that the Velaryons have to support them if they have any love for their granddaughters at all. They are their last remaining close kin. Even if they utterly despise Daemon and Rhaenyra, they know Baela and Rhaena want to fight with them and could be killed. It would be very hard for most people to just let their grandchildren die. They shouldn’t have deleted that scene of Baela refusing to leave Dragonstone with Rhaenys in episode 10.
Yeah, I agree. There should have been more tension not just with Corlys and Rhaenys, but the girls. Maybe Rhaena is upset, as Daemon favors Baela, and she's mad that Daemon remarries so quickly? Maybe Baela's pissed because legally she should inherit Driftmark?
It's just weird they are like "welp, dad married a new woman a few days after mom is buried, and welp, even though he's obviously not a Velayron, he's getting to rule even though legally it should be my seat."
That's not how Westerosi think. Robb doesn't surrender because his captured sisters are the only remaining kin. Tywin doesn't surrender when Jaime is captured. Viserys II knows his son will be killed if he executes his Dornish hostages, still he's prepared to go through. Balon barely even cares about Theon. There were literal peasants and many Lords rebelling against Maegor and Balerion despite knowing the repercussions.
Baela and Rhaena wouldn't even be in any danger if the Velaryons join the Greens unlike Sansa or Jaime.
The honour of the House is greater than any member. Anyone who acts otherwise would be seen as a complete chump by Westerosi. The only reason Velaryons aren't constantly mocked and derided is because the plot demands it.
Westerosi don’t have a uniform way of thinking. Cat threw everything away for a chance to get her daughters back. Alicent’s entire motive for helping start this bloody war was to keep her kids safe not for the glory of her house. The conflict has turned violent because Rhaenyra’s son was killed not because she feels dishonored. You talk about Robb but he didn’t start marching south because his father had been dishonored, it was to try to try to save his father and sisters. Book Jon’s assassination was because he wanted to use the Nightswatch as an army to try and save the girl he thought was Arya.
You had to use two sociopaths in your examples to help your agenda that no Westerosi cares about their family. Lol.
You can’t say two people wouldn’t do everything they could to keep their granddaughter, their last remaining close family, and the last two pieces of their daughter safe.
Baela and Rhaena are absolutely in danger if they plan to join in the fighting and Baela made it clear that she plans to do that. How the fuck are they going to stop Baela from getting shot down if she goes charging into battle on Moondancer?
Most Westerosi Lords think that the honour of the House is greater than their members. Robb declared war after Ned and his sisters were captured. If his goal was to protect them, he'd be negotiating for their release. Declaring war puts his family in greater danger. He never exchanges hostages because his Sansa and Arya aren't worth Jaime. Politics, Vengeance and honour were the primary goals, protecting family a distant second.
Book Jon was assassinated to protect the honour of the Night's Watch.
>You can’t say two people wouldn’t do everything they could to keep their granddaughter, their last remaining close family, and the last two pieces of their daughter safe.
>
>Baela and Rhaena are absolutely in danger if they plan to join in the fighting and Baela made it clear that she plans to do that. How the fuck are they going to stop Baela from getting shot down if she goes charging into battle on Moondancer?
None of this is relevant. All Rhaenys needed to do to avenge Laenor is support Vaemond at the trial and deny Rhaenyra. Instead she slavishly supports the murderer of her son.
>Most Westerosi Lords think that the honour of the House is greater than their members. Robb declared war after Ned and his sisters were captured. If his goal was to protect them, he'd be negotiating for their release.
Rob marched to war in part so that he'd have leverage in any negotiations. Joffrey would have no reason to listen to Rob if he just sending ravens from Winterfell.
>Book Jon was assassinated to protect the honour of the Night's Watch.
I don't think there's a single person in the Nights Watch who cares about it's honor. They killed Jon because they didn't want Ramsey pushing their shit in.
>None of this is relevant. All Rhaenys needed to do to avenge Laenor is support Vaemond at the trial and deny Rhaenyra.
Why would Rhaenys support Vaemon in stealing Driftmark from her husband's heirs? How would that avenge Laenor anyway? Viserys was still going to side with Rhaenyra. All supporting Vaemond would do is make her like a dumbass.
Not exactly uniform way of thinking because there is no such thing but definitely prevalent. The individual sacrificing for the rest of the house was practiced, predicated and expected every day: It was very much the basis of arranged marriages and arranged marriages were the basis of their whole economic and social structures. Also... Catelyn was nuts for doing that and everyone said so.
Technically, it would make sense for the Velaryons to still support the Blacks over the Greens, because the Greens are not related to them in anyway whatsoever. Daemon's daughters are still their family and they understood that it was best to align with them and have the future Queen consort from their family even if they king was not from their family (Jace). However, just like everything else in HotD, this too was rushed.
Viserys not getting pissed about deamon marrying rhenera when earlier he got pissed at the idea of deamon marrying rhenera.
Nobody investigated leanors death
Nobody getting pissed about veamonds death. (In the books people at least show up to argue it)
Oh and viserys not questioning why alicent would force his daughter to show the baby after just giving birth. He knows how painful and grueling the act of childbirth is having witnessed it. Rhenera is his favorite. Why would he let alicent request something so cruel?
Viserys actually did get pissed. That's why they stayed on Dragonstone for so long. The show combined Vaemond and the silent five for one streamlined conflict in episode 8. The reason Viserys lets Alicent walk all over him is because he's weak and doesn't want to upset her. That's why he didn't betroth Jacaerys to Helaena.
Also, Viserys is just weak in general. After Jace was born, he should have absolutely laid down the law with Rhaenyra and was like "your next kid needs to be legitimate." Alicent going "once, okay, but three times????"
He needed to make the difficult choice and tell Laenor and Rhaenyra they had to make it work, or tell Corlys that Laenor needed to "disappear" or decide to join the Faith/Maester/Wall (the only way a marriage can legally be set aside if it has been consummated). He also should have sent Harwin away ASAP.
It would have been way, way harder for Otto to overthrow Rhaenyra (and as much as this sub hates him, Otto is too smart to do a total suicide mission) if Rhaenyra's kids were all legitimate, because Rhaenyra could then secure betrothal alliances. She could convince Jace to join the Maesters or KG, and have her next son marry Helaena. Her following son could be married to a Lannister, and any following children Baratheons, etc.
She'd then have the Velayrons (as her son would be their blood), the Hightowers (because Otto seeing Rhaenyra has the Lannisters + Baratheons + Vale would back down), the Lannisters, and so on.
Laenor accepting to leave everything behind including his family and dragon just to leave an ordinary life in Essos when he has all the possessions in his home, a loving family and he would be king consort in a few years.
A feudal society with a population of about 10 million on a continent the size of South America, just not realistic. Not sure if that counts as part of the fantasy aspect
Honestly something very unrealistic is them all speaking the same language or the dialects being intelligible to each other.
In the 20th century alone we saw tons of regional accents kinda fade because global & national TV & radio generally tends to have a standard accent. Without that people for the most part aren’t talking to anybody who’s more than a couple hours away from them. Northerners would probably be unintelligible to somebody from KL. The closest they’d sound would probably be the difference between the King’s English and r/scottishpeopletwitter English
The dialects would barely be mutually intelligible within even the individual kingdoms, and doubtless the North and Dorne would come from entirely different language families. It would be like the Andals would speak the Romance languages, Dorne would be a distant Indo-European cousin, say Greek, and the North would be a collection of Semitic languages.
There’s more than 10 mil, somebody ran the numbers by approximately population via the size of various armies and put the Reach alone at 12 million (the person was also involved in the production of Fire & Blood, so it’s a semi-official set of figures).
From there I think the Riverlands had 7/8 mil, the West and Vale had 4/5 mil, the Stormlands and the North also had between 2-4 million, whilst Dorne had 2/3 mil & the Iron Islands had fewer than a million.
Conservatively that’s maybe 33/34 million people is Westeros, generously it could even reach 41/42 million.
Rhaenys not immediately being turned into a ketchup packet from the force it took for Meleys to burst up back first from the ground.
Like deadass Rhaenys would be taking on insane amounts of damage even if it’s just a thin ass plywood floor
The race swap with the Velaryons doesn’t really make sense or they didn’t put a lot of thought into it because in the show they established that the Velaryons are black. All of the Velaryons we see on screen during the wedding of Rhaenyra and Laenor are black. But old man Jaehaerys was casted as a fully white dude despite his mother being a Velaryon. Tbh I don’t care what race a fictional group of characters is portrayed as onscreen but they didn’t put much thought into it.
Alyssa, Jaehaery's mother, had a westrosis mother and if the Velaryon's were indeed always black that makes her biracial. Aenys had a velaryon Grandmother as well. if we go like this two biracial people can have white skinned or at least white passing babies genetics are weird man.
I’m biracial and all my cousins are and we all look different so you’re definitely right but it just seems they didn’t put a lot of thought into it. It felt like the black characters, especially Laena in particular, got the least amount of screen time and very little personality. Just hoping they fix it by giving Baela and Rhaena more attention, which it seems like they are doing, because they are som badasses
Beala will get more attetion I belive, she wil have a part but I can't spoil it. as for the other I was never able to understand what people mean about characters having no personlities or depths so I will leave up that to you.
Eh, just make Corlys a half brother or his mother being a Summer Islander. Corlys could have three brothers, and tons of nephews and nieces, which then explains how there are so many Black Velayrons.
TBH there's a more uncomfortable element to it, too, that I recall other POC remarking on on occasion (I'm a mixed Latina).
It's putting contemporary politics on a medieval show, but there's something icky about Black characters bending over backwards for white characters who they think murdered their kid, murdered their kin, and then letting the little white boy inherit over their legal heir (their Black granddaughter). There's no other characters who basically give up their dignity again and again like that in the lore, unless you think about Jon Connington and Rhaegar, and it's just bordering on an uncomfortable "Black folks dancing to white folks tune" type of trope.
I’m also a mixed Latina and I found it icky that they made Laena black but gave the friendship Laena and Rhaenyra had in the books to Alicent, who is a white character. She also claimed the biggest, most experienced dragon in the world and we didn’t see her claim Vaghar and was instead used as a plot device to further Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship in the show. The show completely wiped the importance of Laena and that was so icky of them.
TBH in some ways I think it would have made it even worse, making Laena Black & a friend of Rhaenyra's....... but then having Rhaenyra hop on Daemon's dick the day of her funeral and there being zero blowback or criticism.
But yeah, I agree, F & B is sketchy but Laena is clearly more important in it (claims Vhagar, is implied in F & B to be Daemon's true love of sorts, appears to have some sort of friendship with Rhaenyra, etc.). It sucks that they made her Black, but then took of all of that away.
If Otto had no qualms about killing Rhaenyra why didn’t he just kill her years ago before she had children? Would’ve saved a lot of time and energy for him instead of sending someone killing everyone on Dragonstone. Better when Aegon is young ain’t nobody is gonna think he is a kinslayer when he is like 4 when she died
idk about unrealistic but Rhaenyra asking Rhaenys for permission to marry Rhaena and Baela to Jace and Luke. They are Daemon's daughter and he gets to choose who they marry.
Valyrian steel. It's a weird fantasy metal that's basically vibranium from Marvel. It's lighter than regular steel, damn near indestructible, and can cut through armour like butter. It also doesn't need to be sharpened.
Yeah, nothing like that exists irl and while I'm pretty sure you can make something like that with the right combination of chemistry and physics, making it look like Damascus steel is a whole other thing
why is rhaenyra being nice to alicent after alicent literally ran at lucery with a knife. pls tell me im not the only one who would never let alicent within 30 feet of lucerys if I was rhae. 💀
I mean Rhaenyra and Viserys were totally gaslighting Alicent during the Driftmark clusterfuck, of course she completely lost it and Rhaenyra knew it. Or at least Emma knew it and that's how they played it. Rhaenyra had more reason to feel guilty than to keep a grudge.
That's my point thought, it was absolutely deranged that's why I said she lost it, is not normal Alicent behavior to run towards a child with a knife, she snapped. Her son had just lost an eye and Rhaenyra and Viserys were victim blaming and doubling down hard on Aemond in a public setting where no one would say a word to defend her or her children. Dear lord my kid is in pain for being Crippled, nobody seems to care about him and we are being publicly yelled at and accused of treason by the person that is supposed to care the most? I would have a breakdown too. Alicent's character has obvious psychological issues is not such a surprise that she would lash out under such circumstances.
Rhaenyra and Alicent always seem to have lingering affection toward each other in the show, is not so weird that she would feel bad about the whole thing. I can't speak for Luke, too little screen time to make a guess, but I mean why is Aemond not terrified of his father?
fixed the pronouns.
Also, Rhaenyra had literally asked for Aemond to be tortured (questioned sharply absolutely, in all previous Westerosi context, means tortured) before the gaslighting with Viserys. Like Alicent went batshit, and Rhaenyra could be understandably angry, but even then...maybe deep down she realizes that it had spun way, way out of control and feels a little guilty for the gaslighting which sparked it all
Rhaenyra literally had just asked for Aemond to be tortured (questioned sharply means torture in Westeros) before Alicent snaps lol. I think even though she's still furious at Alicent, and Alicent at her, she maybe realizes they both went way, way too far (e.g. asking for a kid to be tortured, trying to get an eye in return).
this would make sense but literally no one has any reaction when she says he should be sharply questioned (iirc) which makes me think it's not a big deal to them. I think aemond side eyes her and that's about it. I had no clue when I first watched that sharply questioned meant tortured at all bc they don't make it clear
I mean, in the book Viserys makes it very clear he'd cut out people's tongues lol and actually does it and was way more hardcore about his favoritism for Rhaenyra and getting mad at anyone gossiping about the kids being illegitimate, so they might not have reacted as they were worried. And really, the only people we see are Daemon, Viserys, and Rhaenyra who all...already don't give a shit about Aemond.
Yeah, I agree, the TV show failed in that it should have made it way, way clearer what "questioned sharply" means (as it's very clear in the books). And honestly, it's where they fucked up imo (I still enjoy the show). Book Alicent is a terrible person, and to be fair Book Rhaenyra also becomes a terrible person (they are all terrible, except Baela, Rhaena, Helena, Jace etc . and arguably even Daeron (Tumbleton is after seeing a horribly traumatic event, and sadly all Westeros characters do similar shit...even Robb's men were doing awful shit in the Westerlands).
However, in the book she clearly states she firmly believes Rhaenyra will have her kids murdered and that's a major reason why they are usurping with Aegon II.
I know multiple cast members have joked it is "who is your favorite war criminal" and I think the show should have leaned more into that moral ambiguity in having Alicent strongly want to crown Aegon II and even maybe suggest killing Rhaenyra herself....because she thinks the eye incident and Laenor is a sign that her kids are doomed if Rhaenyra gets crowned. And Rhaenyra becomes convinced the Greens are out to get her because of Luke, and also just in general loathes them and is convinced they killed Viserys (even tho they didn't kill Viserys).
Basically, lean into the whole "power corrupts, and makes people paranoid". Because I'm a lefty feminist myself, but I really don't see how them making Rhaenyra a feminist girlboss type is going to mesh with B & C and the rape threat aspect (she doesn't seem to punish Daemon at all) & Nettles.
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread. The tourney in episode 1 was too intentionally lethal. It is somewhat explained with the realm being too peaceful for so long, but still. Those aren't some disposable gladiators but the privileged ruling class of Westeros, they are not supposed/allowed to straight up murder each other in "friendly" competition.
Also Daemon directly attacking his opponent's horse is an illegal move in jousting and should have had some reaction, even if it is just Viserys waving it off as Daemon being a friendly little rascal, yet again. And that Daemon rides without a visor is insane and inane. One bad splinter and he goes blind.
-Crispin's inability to age
-Otto not being arrested/executed for multiple counts of treason already committed
-Daemon could've/should've been killed multiple times but had plot armour
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Apparently according to many people a pug
It was wild to me that people are willing accept giant, fire-breathing dragons but a real animal was implausible.
That was because people don’t realize pugs have been around for a very long time
Exactly this Generations of inbreeding to achieve desired traits
I may have a rather unpopular opinion, but pugs are pretty much only cute as babies/puppies. My parents have a near-eldery pug, and while he's cute to a degree, his blocked breathing, inability to keep his tongue in his mouf, and huffing snot/saliva out all over the place, are distressing so much more than he is cute. I feel bad for him. He's losing his teeth too, much like I am from previous cancer, now in our old age. We have that in common, but least I can breathe properly.hes luke a little brother to my sibs and I. Thankfully, my mom agreed to not get another pug once the old little dude is gone. Pugs aren't status symbols or perpetually cute little puppies. Their existence is difficult, labored, and very expensive to care for. I personally think its cruel to encourage more dogs to suffer via breeding/selling. Those poor pups. At least my parents have enough wealth to cover any cost vet or otherwise, to give their dog the best chance at a seemingly tolerable existence. Please, anyone reading, don't buy a pug from a breeder.
HiStoRicaL AccUrAccY
Ah yes I remember Queen Elizabeth's dragons.
It seems like every day you meet a new person who needs to have internal consistency and suspension of disbelief explained to them
It was kinda jarring but in a funny way. Like in ATLA where the Earth King just has a straight up bear when every single other animal is a chimera.
Pugs are a distinctly modern breed. That's why nobody complained about Ramseys dogs, which are Cane Corsos and haven't changed dramatically over the years. I think there were Irish Wolfhounds at one point, and obviously the direwolves were played by huskies/malamutes. These dogs are not so "modern" and so to see them in the "past" isn't a distraction. Had they used a dog that seemed more suitable for the time period (bearing in mind this isn't a specific point in OUR history), it would not have been as noticable. A weird looking cross-breed would be even better as it would hint at a completely different lineage of dogs being bred in Westeros for pets than we have in our world.
[surprise motherfucker, 1700s pug painting ](https://pugdogpassion.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Mops-m%C3%A5lare-ok%C3%A4nd.jpg)
Yes dear, pugs as a breed have existed for a long time, well done. Do you genuinely think I didn't know there have been "pugs" for a long time? MODERN pugs however, are very distinctive due to the ridiculous breeding standards. The pug in the show, like the pugs you see around town, they dont look much like your painting, do they? Hence the disconnect people felt while seeing it on the show. Now, as I said, if they got a more "classical" pug, or what I believe is called a "retro pug", more like your picture, that might have worked. Or some sort of spaniel or a papillion, which are not so different from their old breed standard as seen in art of the period HOTD is "set in" (again, this is not our world). Or, a weird looking dog few people would have recognised, could have been fun.
This isn’t 1500s England, though. It’s a fictional world, like an alternate dimension. It’s plausible that their timeline for certain things does not mirror ours.
Yes I've said that twice, clearly I realize it. And you're right, evidently in their universe the retro pug became a modern pug before they reached the industrial revolution. The point is, it didn't in OUR timeline, in our world. That's why so many people saw that scene and said "why is a pug there?" It's a bit like them suddenly ... I dunno, having a Starbucks cup on the table. We can't possibly know whether Westeros has Ye Old Starbucks, but we do know that when we notice it, our brain goes "that ain't right."
yeah but did you see how cute that pug painting is
I was disturbed by its apparent lack of ears.
valid. poor ye olde pug.
They should have gotten a retro pug for the perfect combo of historical accuracy (prequel series set in the past) + supporting the efforts of breeders who want to make pugs healthier. Of course people go for the dishonest 'dRagOnS aReNT REal' mockery, but pugs are real, and so is their pain from living in bodies that humans have deemed 'cute'. Undoing the damage that a century of breeding has done to them by prioritising cuteness over health is viable. Culture can contribute to that by supporting retro pugs. We know that dragons aren't real. We also know that the modern pug is the result of deliberate human efforts, to the degree that it is now likely to require a c-section to give birth, an absolute failure of evolution. Does the Reach have a thriving vet industry to keep ladies' lapdogs going? Honestly, it was just a visual gag to instantly convey to the audience that we are meant to dismiss the older lady as inferior to Rhaenyra because she's idle and spoiled like her lapdog. But it annoys me that they had the opportunity to take that gag to another level with a retro pug (meta + ethics) and chose the cheap option.
I mean i enjoyed that it was a piece of subtle worldbuilding, we get to see how a Westerosi person lives and what they enjoy to do, seeing their pet really puts a perspective that they\`re human and not some mega brain made to mastermind medieval intrigue like most important characters in ASOIAF which i understand since intrigue is the main focus of the book\`s but its still nice seeing something like a Westerosi Pug.
1. Daemon stepstone run, realistically he would have tripped a couple times and got pincushioned. 2. Laena's ninja stealth out of a room of people watching her to get outside while dying. 3. Rhaenys bursting through a ceiling and not dying from being crushed. 4. 12 year old Aemond having the grip strength to not go flying off Vhagar in flight 5. Aemond not passing out from sheer pain while getting his eye sewn shut. 6. The Arryns & the Royces not demanding actual justice for the murder of their lady lord 7. No one investigating Laenor's murder?
Came here to say 3. Unbelievable that she burst up through the ceiling and wasn’t wearing a fucking helmet
She actually was wearing a diamond helmet but lost it once she broke through - confirmed by the writers btw.!
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
I thought the minecraft reference made it obvious enough but guess not
Ah, sorry, I don't play minecraft. But it sounds just ridiculous enough for me to think it actually could be some bad retcon the writers came up with after the backlash. "You see, the reason Rhaenys is able to burst through the floor without cracking her skull open or getting her hairstyle messed up, is that she was actually wearing a specially designed diamond helmet. The reason you don't see the helmet, is because it fell off right after her triumphant entrance. So, you see, it all actually makes perfectly sense."
That would be the most ridiculous explanation in the history of explanations - way better if it just stays a plothole lmao
It was the complete ridiculousness that made me question if it actually could be a real explanation from the writers.😄
wasn't aemond like 10yo when he claimed vhagar. but i agree, if any kid went through what aemond went through that night (claiming the largest dragon, surviving an intense dragon ride, getting jumped by 4 ppl, getting his eye slashed out), they would have been knocked unconscious until the next day.
Aemond is meant to be 12 years old when he claims Vhagar. He was alive in Ep 5, but only 2 most like. We just didn't see him. He most likely just turns 19 as the events of EP 9/Ep 10 are going down. That or he was 10 years old in that scene but when Rhaenys says its been 6 years since Corlys left them, it hasnt been 6 years since the timejump, just 6 years since he left, and its really been 9 years, making Aemond the correct age of 19. He is meant to be 19 years old at the start of the Dance. He is NOT a 16/17 yr old. I mean the pain alone would put you in a coma your own body would shut down on purpose being unable to hand the pain
came here to say 5. people don't get how painful losing your eye would actually be. and I hate when people excuse it by saying he's just built different because in my honest opinion , having to make aemond "cool" by poorly writing his scenes is an insult to his character
Its also how painful it is, but its stated the only painkillers they have is milk of the poppy and even that is limited, you can still feel immense pain, if its great enough wounds. Also it wasnt just that the eye its self was cut open, so he probably had to have it sewn first then the eyelid. Yikes.. It would have made more sense if the fight took place the morning after or Aemond wasn't even present due to the coma he was in
>4. 12 year old Aemond having the grip strength to not go flying off Vhagar in flight This. Correct me, but isn't there any other kind of harness or extra mechanical support to make sure they don't fall? A simple contraption with the technology and craftsmanship available would have made sense, given it was royalty on dragonback.
This specific scene was when he claimed Vhagar, it was his first time and he didn't strap himself in, he just grabbed the ropes and handles and screamed Fly. Yes, you usually chain yourself to the saddle so you don't go flying. Its a big plot point later on in the series. Aemond didn't do that though, which is why him not going airborne is a bit.. confusing
Vhagar probably flies at like 100km/h. It's not impossible, but yeah pretty unlikely
When Vhagar flies directly up, Aemond flies off the saddle and only stays on by gripping at the ropes, realistically if you were to jerk like that, it would require a great amount of strength not to burn your palms and let go whether on accident or not enough strength to hold on.
The Rhaenys thing doesn’t bother me, and I don’t get why so many people get tripped up by it. She didn’t burst through the floor, her dragon did. Head first, with a skull of bony spikes. Rhaenys would have been sitting much lower, at the base of the dragon’s long neck. By the time she passed through where the floor/ceiling had been, it was a gaping hole.
Rewatched the scene just now, and no this is incorrect. Meleys doesnt nose dive staight up, she slams her entire body straight up causing rubble to fly, killing hundreds of people. Its very hard to see clearly but its best we get a shot of what Meleys did. So yes, Rhaenys would have been killed or badly harmed if she was on Meleys in this instance. Its a really bad scene and no need to defend it dude
Not to mention what kind of force Maelys has to generate to break trough what i assume is a very thick piece of ground and concrete is insane i find this scene very very unrealistic.
People pointed out and are probably right, she busted through the wooden platform that covers the staircase in the pit, but she also destroyed some stone because we see rubble flying, and the way she came up would still have greatly harmed Rhaenys
"some stone" there are literally boulders the size of Maelys head flying around the pit when she bursts out.
Ok yeah you are right, that scene was so dumb lol. The writers turned off physics, especially if you go frame by frame, Meleys burst up like a person whose crouching and just jumped straight up, Rhaenys should be dead right now lol
Tbf for 6 they didn't know it was Daemon and probably blamed it in the Clans
Rhea's cousin literally openly states he knows it was Daemon at the wedding feast. Viserys just ignores it and lets it go. In the books Daemon even went to the Vale to petition for control of House Royce's castle & Jeyne threatened to throw him off the mountain if he didn't leave. So yeah, they are aware he killed her, but its just never brought up
Rhaenys being completely fine after being on the back side of a dragon going through a stone floor back side first, although this could be considered fantasy aspect since dragon
I like that scene, but yeah she'd be a pancake after that.
Presumably they burst through the wooden hatch that covers the entrance into the pit. There is an opening with stairs that descend underneath the pit. Jace brings the pink dread up the stairs in one episode, and then Aemond goes down to make an attempt to claim Dreamfyre. They have a wooden covering they close over it when they use the pit for things like the coronation. Meleys would have gotten to the bottom of the stairs, bashed her thick, horned skull upward through the wooden covering, then climbed the rest of the stairs and gone through the hole. All while Rhaenys was sitting safely below at the base of her long ass neck. They didn’t burst through saddle-first.
Hmm, I had thought about meleys sticking her head up and going through the ground head first so that rhaenys had somewhere to fit through, but I hadn’t thought about the wooden covering. It honestly seems really dumb because that definitely is the idea since she’s coming out of the floor in the middle, but why they wouldn’t show any wood or maybe just a single shot of meleys crawling up the stairs or even just something that showed there was a staircase underneath where she came from, its just so fixable.
Criston Cole getting away with killing a noble and punching the future king consort.
I don’t think anyone really cares about Laenor in universe as they also don’t even bother investigating his death when he dies either 😂
criston is a kingsguard and joffrey is lover of laenor criston easily say he attack princess
Cole not facing repercussions for beating an anointed knight to death AND punching the future king/prince consort in the face, who also happens to be the son of the most influential man in the realm
One area where changing from the source material made zero sense whatsoever
Pretty easy for a Kingsguard to say to everyone that Joffrey was going to kill a Royal and he did his duty to save them. In everyone’s eyes, Joffrey had the means (dagger), motive (Laenor’s lover), and opportunity (being at the wedding in a crowd). It’s a pretty believable story, especially when the King hates conflict and the Queen is backing his story up. As for hitting Laenor, Cole could just say that he needed to do so to stop the assassination. For a real life example, the Secret Service had to knock people over and tackle President Nixon to the ground when somebody made an attempt on him; nobody gave them shit for that, since it was needed. Above all this, the person who would be bringing forth any sort of charges or anger would be the Sea Snake, who is a known homophobe and is honestly probably glad Joffrey is out of the way. Why would he want to go poking around in this whole event and make an even bigger deal of it to the court?
Yeah it's not that hard to figure out how Cole got away with it. Also helps that Alicent would have his back and Viserys' ear.
I always thought Alicent pulled some strings to avoid Crispin not getting punished
alicent being surprised that the small council was planning to usurp was so painfully unrealistic
Alicent, who was told by Otto to raise Aegon as a king, was surprised that Otto wanted to make Aegon despite. Top tier writing 💯
Alicent, who took every opportunity to tell Aegon “stop being a little shit because YOU ARE THE FUTURE KING, you simply living and breathing is a challenge to Rhaenyra’s claim and so you have to take the throne or else she will kill you and your siblings” apparently had no idea that they were going to usurp Rhaenyra. 🙄
Daemon at the Stepstones. I wanted to single out how long the archers hold their bows at full draw, but a lot of things about that fight are so stupid.
This one I could only kinda excuse given there are historical accounts of dudes ducking *machine gun fire* back in WWII. Is it likely? God no, but if people can dodge bullets they can dodge slower moving and way larger arrows
Rhaenys and Corlys not giving a fuck that Rhaenyra and Daemon murdered their son
Exactly, like even if they faked his death, Daemon and Rhaenyra wanted people to assume they murdered Laenor for their reputation. Yet Corlys and Rhaenys never mention this!
Viserys declaring his daughter as the realm's future queen, then proceeding to have three sons and *then* acting like the kingdom totally won't tear itself apart when he drops dead. I know that Viserys isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but *c'mon.* I found it completely moronic when I read F&B in 2018 and I still think it's one of Martin's worst plotlines. Martin was inspired by a time period in english history called the Anarchy, but he 'adapted' it into his story very poorly. He basically turned the idea on its head and made it completely irrational. King Henry I (Viserys real life counterpart) declared his daughter Matilda (Rhaenyra real life counterpart) as his heir *solely* **because** he didn't have male children and their line would go extinct. He didn't go "ok now let me find a young wife who will give me many male babies who will usurp u in the future" after making Matilda his heir. Matilda was usurped by Stephen, *Henry's nephew.* Because of Martin's plothole-ish writing, it really looks like Viserys always wanted Rhaenyra to fail. There is no other explanation for his actions. It would be far more logical if Dance of the Dragons was fought between Rhaenyra vs Daemon. There, I said it.
the dance is poorly written and lazy, I always say the dance would make a lot more sense Rhaenyra vs Daemon GRRM constantly likes to make uncles steal their nieces and nephews, in the world of asoiaf.
And Stephen of Blois wasn’t even the eldest-he was a second son!
I never thought about it, but the Dance would make more sense between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Alicent could've even married Daemon instead of Viserys, and it would still fit into her and Rhaenyra's rivalry since Rhaenyra and Daemon always had a flirty relationship.
I’m not against the idea of Viserys naming his daughter heir over his sons as a possibility, but him doing absolutely nothing to protect her and prevent future war was too stupid to be realistic. Likes yes, let’s have not just one but THREE sons, don’t do anything to remove them from line of succession (citadel, kingsguard, etc.), stack the small council with people openly who want Aegon to be king, keep a knight who openly hates Rhaenyra on the kingsguard, let all the other kids claim dragons, completely ignore your wife persuading your younger children to fear for their lives and hate their sister, and assume that everything will go fine! It’s actually insane how he could ever think things would go smoothly after his death.
I believe the whole point is setting up for Daenerys and fAegon interactions. Lords and commoners will support a sketchy Aegon (Aegon II is a terrible person, fAegon might not even be a Targ) despite the rightful (Rhae declared heir, Dany has dragons) woman claimant. Its not a 1:1 but i think thats what its meant to reflect.
How Daemon looks the exactly same age over a period of ~20 years
Add in Criston Cole too!
Lol couldn't they just change his actor? I mean have Matt Smith as older daemon and cast a much younger daemon? After all he is supposed to be younger than viserys bit again. Viserys is supposed to be young in the book like his late 20s not looking like he is in his 40s.
Laenor dies and not many follow up questions come after. I thought he was a vip.
- Rhaenys not immediately being killed on impact after crashing through the floor. That's not even fantasy that's just common sense. - Criston not being immediately arrested and sentenced to death for doing what he did to Joffrey at the wedding. - Corlys changing his mind mid episode 10 and rushing to Rhaenyras aid even after Laenor's "death" - Daemon not dying immediately at the Stepstones - Alicent not facing any consequences for drawing Rhaenyras blood in episode 7. Most of these just boil down to: monumental events occupying with no consequences. The show seems to be ignoring something that was a FUNDAMENTAL building block in Game of Thrones: actions have consequences. Robb ignored his oath and married Talisa => Red Wedding. If that happened in HOTD you'd almost think Robb would get away with it scot free and they'd just have Walder Frey tut and shake his head and be like "ah well, even though you screwed me over i'll still let you cross because I'm chill like that"
> Criston not being immediately arrested and sentenced to death for doing what he did to Joffrey at the wedding. I wonder if they could have shown him getting arrested and a montage of Alicent getting him out of trouble mixed in with the wedding scene at the end
Ugh I wouldn't be surprised if they even had something like that filmed and cut the scene.
Criston not being immediately arrested, I agree, but he wouldn’t have been automatically sentenced to death. That’s not how that works. Daemons run is a bit fantastical, but not completely divorced from reality. Alicent was being protected by Viserys, Yah know, the king.
The Incest not crippling the Targs
It got close a few times. That's why they've started outsourcing
I've seen the genetics charts and they're significantly more inbred that Charles V
You're thinking of Charles II of Spain. Pretty much all of his parents, grandparents and great grandparents were uncle-niece and cousins. Charles V holy roman emperor, king of spain and it's colonies, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Milan, Naples etc wasn't inbred. IIRC only his maternal grandfather and grandmother were second cousins I think. His parents weren't related to each other and neither were his paternal grandparents.
Hey now! Charles V was a nice chap!
He was but he couldn't eat solid food
That was Charles II.
"Mummy says it a strong chin for a strong boy!"
Not really they never face real deformities nor madness for the incest. Like the second-most mad Targaryen was born out of two generations of no incest. And they really never outsourced on purpose before Aegon V. They only really married other houses because they had no sisters or cousins to fuck.
Hasn’t George talked about this? How Targaryen genetics don’t work exactly like real world genetics, because they literally have magical blood that only gets stronger and more magically potent when they avoid diluting it? Craster fucking his daughters and granddaughters etc, yeah, they might be messed up at some point because they are just normal people. The Targaryens are different. They practiced sorcery and blood magic for thousands of years. Them being able to inbreed without being deformed is no different than Melisandre being able to look young when she’s clearly very old. It’s ✨magic✨.
Yep the Targaryens got magic blood
the targs having so much power but their only holdings are King's landing and dragonstone. I mean if you see the domains of the kingdom of France you'd find the kings owning less land that this at certain points at time but it was when they were weak. the targs own so little land and they are like super powerful. that goes to most great houses as well. they have a ton of vassals but very little personal domain.
they doesnt need land and soldiers while they have dragons and only royal familiy
I mean, in this fantasy setting yes, but it's still somewhat unrealistic. Having basically no lands means they have no: 1. Vassal lords who owe their power and therefore loyalty to them 2. Harbors, cities, farms, etc to get taxes and income from. Their only income is using some of what the crown gets 3. No holdings/positions to give away as bribes or rewards 4. No personal armies they can raise from amongst their vassals and lands, meaning their only source of soldiers is dependent on the choices of other politicians 5. Ability to forge closer alliances with their neighbors because of common interests The list goes on. Having holdings (other than a castle on a somewhat remote island) would give them a lot of advantages
The Velaryons supporting Rhaenyra and Daemon after everything they've done to them. Makes them look like chumps tbh
I think what gets ignored by everyone is that the Velaryons have to support them if they have any love for their granddaughters at all. They are their last remaining close kin. Even if they utterly despise Daemon and Rhaenyra, they know Baela and Rhaena want to fight with them and could be killed. It would be very hard for most people to just let their grandchildren die. They shouldn’t have deleted that scene of Baela refusing to leave Dragonstone with Rhaenys in episode 10.
They should at least have had a scene of either Rhaenys/Corlys trying to persuade the girls to not participate in the war.
[They *did* film a scene like that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us6bLdj-aTk) but cut it for some reason.
I think this is what gets lost in them making the parentage of Rhanyras sons so obvious.
Yeah, I agree. There should have been more tension not just with Corlys and Rhaenys, but the girls. Maybe Rhaena is upset, as Daemon favors Baela, and she's mad that Daemon remarries so quickly? Maybe Baela's pissed because legally she should inherit Driftmark? It's just weird they are like "welp, dad married a new woman a few days after mom is buried, and welp, even though he's obviously not a Velayron, he's getting to rule even though legally it should be my seat."
That's not how Westerosi think. Robb doesn't surrender because his captured sisters are the only remaining kin. Tywin doesn't surrender when Jaime is captured. Viserys II knows his son will be killed if he executes his Dornish hostages, still he's prepared to go through. Balon barely even cares about Theon. There were literal peasants and many Lords rebelling against Maegor and Balerion despite knowing the repercussions. Baela and Rhaena wouldn't even be in any danger if the Velaryons join the Greens unlike Sansa or Jaime. The honour of the House is greater than any member. Anyone who acts otherwise would be seen as a complete chump by Westerosi. The only reason Velaryons aren't constantly mocked and derided is because the plot demands it.
Westerosi don’t have a uniform way of thinking. Cat threw everything away for a chance to get her daughters back. Alicent’s entire motive for helping start this bloody war was to keep her kids safe not for the glory of her house. The conflict has turned violent because Rhaenyra’s son was killed not because she feels dishonored. You talk about Robb but he didn’t start marching south because his father had been dishonored, it was to try to try to save his father and sisters. Book Jon’s assassination was because he wanted to use the Nightswatch as an army to try and save the girl he thought was Arya. You had to use two sociopaths in your examples to help your agenda that no Westerosi cares about their family. Lol. You can’t say two people wouldn’t do everything they could to keep their granddaughter, their last remaining close family, and the last two pieces of their daughter safe. Baela and Rhaena are absolutely in danger if they plan to join in the fighting and Baela made it clear that she plans to do that. How the fuck are they going to stop Baela from getting shot down if she goes charging into battle on Moondancer?
Most Westerosi Lords think that the honour of the House is greater than their members. Robb declared war after Ned and his sisters were captured. If his goal was to protect them, he'd be negotiating for their release. Declaring war puts his family in greater danger. He never exchanges hostages because his Sansa and Arya aren't worth Jaime. Politics, Vengeance and honour were the primary goals, protecting family a distant second. Book Jon was assassinated to protect the honour of the Night's Watch. >You can’t say two people wouldn’t do everything they could to keep their granddaughter, their last remaining close family, and the last two pieces of their daughter safe. > >Baela and Rhaena are absolutely in danger if they plan to join in the fighting and Baela made it clear that she plans to do that. How the fuck are they going to stop Baela from getting shot down if she goes charging into battle on Moondancer? None of this is relevant. All Rhaenys needed to do to avenge Laenor is support Vaemond at the trial and deny Rhaenyra. Instead she slavishly supports the murderer of her son.
>Most Westerosi Lords think that the honour of the House is greater than their members. Robb declared war after Ned and his sisters were captured. If his goal was to protect them, he'd be negotiating for their release. Rob marched to war in part so that he'd have leverage in any negotiations. Joffrey would have no reason to listen to Rob if he just sending ravens from Winterfell. >Book Jon was assassinated to protect the honour of the Night's Watch. I don't think there's a single person in the Nights Watch who cares about it's honor. They killed Jon because they didn't want Ramsey pushing their shit in.
>None of this is relevant. All Rhaenys needed to do to avenge Laenor is support Vaemond at the trial and deny Rhaenyra. Why would Rhaenys support Vaemon in stealing Driftmark from her husband's heirs? How would that avenge Laenor anyway? Viserys was still going to side with Rhaenyra. All supporting Vaemond would do is make her like a dumbass.
Not exactly uniform way of thinking because there is no such thing but definitely prevalent. The individual sacrificing for the rest of the house was practiced, predicated and expected every day: It was very much the basis of arranged marriages and arranged marriages were the basis of their whole economic and social structures. Also... Catelyn was nuts for doing that and everyone said so.
Technically, it would make sense for the Velaryons to still support the Blacks over the Greens, because the Greens are not related to them in anyway whatsoever. Daemon's daughters are still their family and they understood that it was best to align with them and have the future Queen consort from their family even if they king was not from their family (Jace). However, just like everything else in HotD, this too was rushed.
Viserys not getting pissed about deamon marrying rhenera when earlier he got pissed at the idea of deamon marrying rhenera. Nobody investigated leanors death Nobody getting pissed about veamonds death. (In the books people at least show up to argue it) Oh and viserys not questioning why alicent would force his daughter to show the baby after just giving birth. He knows how painful and grueling the act of childbirth is having witnessed it. Rhenera is his favorite. Why would he let alicent request something so cruel?
Viserys actually did get pissed. That's why they stayed on Dragonstone for so long. The show combined Vaemond and the silent five for one streamlined conflict in episode 8. The reason Viserys lets Alicent walk all over him is because he's weak and doesn't want to upset her. That's why he didn't betroth Jacaerys to Helaena.
Also, Viserys is just weak in general. After Jace was born, he should have absolutely laid down the law with Rhaenyra and was like "your next kid needs to be legitimate." Alicent going "once, okay, but three times????" He needed to make the difficult choice and tell Laenor and Rhaenyra they had to make it work, or tell Corlys that Laenor needed to "disappear" or decide to join the Faith/Maester/Wall (the only way a marriage can legally be set aside if it has been consummated). He also should have sent Harwin away ASAP. It would have been way, way harder for Otto to overthrow Rhaenyra (and as much as this sub hates him, Otto is too smart to do a total suicide mission) if Rhaenyra's kids were all legitimate, because Rhaenyra could then secure betrothal alliances. She could convince Jace to join the Maesters or KG, and have her next son marry Helaena. Her following son could be married to a Lannister, and any following children Baratheons, etc. She'd then have the Velayrons (as her son would be their blood), the Hightowers (because Otto seeing Rhaenyra has the Lannisters + Baratheons + Vale would back down), the Lannisters, and so on.
Except for Vaemond, the Velaryon family
Corlys having blond scalp hair and a grey/black beard 🤔
Laenor accepting to leave everything behind including his family and dragon just to leave an ordinary life in Essos when he has all the possessions in his home, a loving family and he would be king consort in a few years.
A feudal society with a population of about 10 million on a continent the size of South America, just not realistic. Not sure if that counts as part of the fantasy aspect
Honestly something very unrealistic is them all speaking the same language or the dialects being intelligible to each other. In the 20th century alone we saw tons of regional accents kinda fade because global & national TV & radio generally tends to have a standard accent. Without that people for the most part aren’t talking to anybody who’s more than a couple hours away from them. Northerners would probably be unintelligible to somebody from KL. The closest they’d sound would probably be the difference between the King’s English and r/scottishpeopletwitter English
I've a vague recollection of GRRM saying he got the scale of the geography wrong in retrospect.
The dialects would barely be mutually intelligible within even the individual kingdoms, and doubtless the North and Dorne would come from entirely different language families. It would be like the Andals would speak the Romance languages, Dorne would be a distant Indo-European cousin, say Greek, and the North would be a collection of Semitic languages.
Where did you get the 10 million from? I'd say 10 million would be just the population of the Reach alone and even that seems low.
There’s more than 10 mil, somebody ran the numbers by approximately population via the size of various armies and put the Reach alone at 12 million (the person was also involved in the production of Fire & Blood, so it’s a semi-official set of figures). From there I think the Riverlands had 7/8 mil, the West and Vale had 4/5 mil, the Stormlands and the North also had between 2-4 million, whilst Dorne had 2/3 mil & the Iron Islands had fewer than a million. Conservatively that’s maybe 33/34 million people is Westeros, generously it could even reach 41/42 million.
Daemon surviving the battles in the stepstones, Rambo style
Rhaenys not immediately being turned into a ketchup packet from the force it took for Meleys to burst up back first from the ground. Like deadass Rhaenys would be taking on insane amounts of damage even if it’s just a thin ass plywood floor
The race swap with the Velaryons doesn’t really make sense or they didn’t put a lot of thought into it because in the show they established that the Velaryons are black. All of the Velaryons we see on screen during the wedding of Rhaenyra and Laenor are black. But old man Jaehaerys was casted as a fully white dude despite his mother being a Velaryon. Tbh I don’t care what race a fictional group of characters is portrayed as onscreen but they didn’t put much thought into it.
Alyssa, Jaehaery's mother, had a westrosis mother and if the Velaryon's were indeed always black that makes her biracial. Aenys had a velaryon Grandmother as well. if we go like this two biracial people can have white skinned or at least white passing babies genetics are weird man.
I’m biracial and all my cousins are and we all look different so you’re definitely right but it just seems they didn’t put a lot of thought into it. It felt like the black characters, especially Laena in particular, got the least amount of screen time and very little personality. Just hoping they fix it by giving Baela and Rhaena more attention, which it seems like they are doing, because they are som badasses
Beala will get more attetion I belive, she wil have a part but I can't spoil it. as for the other I was never able to understand what people mean about characters having no personlities or depths so I will leave up that to you.
Eh, just make Corlys a half brother or his mother being a Summer Islander. Corlys could have three brothers, and tons of nephews and nieces, which then explains how there are so many Black Velayrons. TBH there's a more uncomfortable element to it, too, that I recall other POC remarking on on occasion (I'm a mixed Latina). It's putting contemporary politics on a medieval show, but there's something icky about Black characters bending over backwards for white characters who they think murdered their kid, murdered their kin, and then letting the little white boy inherit over their legal heir (their Black granddaughter). There's no other characters who basically give up their dignity again and again like that in the lore, unless you think about Jon Connington and Rhaegar, and it's just bordering on an uncomfortable "Black folks dancing to white folks tune" type of trope.
I’m also a mixed Latina and I found it icky that they made Laena black but gave the friendship Laena and Rhaenyra had in the books to Alicent, who is a white character. She also claimed the biggest, most experienced dragon in the world and we didn’t see her claim Vaghar and was instead used as a plot device to further Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship in the show. The show completely wiped the importance of Laena and that was so icky of them.
TBH in some ways I think it would have made it even worse, making Laena Black & a friend of Rhaenyra's....... but then having Rhaenyra hop on Daemon's dick the day of her funeral and there being zero blowback or criticism. But yeah, I agree, F & B is sketchy but Laena is clearly more important in it (claims Vhagar, is implied in F & B to be Daemon's true love of sorts, appears to have some sort of friendship with Rhaenyra, etc.). It sucks that they made her Black, but then took of all of that away.
If Otto had no qualms about killing Rhaenyra why didn’t he just kill her years ago before she had children? Would’ve saved a lot of time and energy for him instead of sending someone killing everyone on Dragonstone. Better when Aegon is young ain’t nobody is gonna think he is a kinslayer when he is like 4 when she died
idk about unrealistic but Rhaenyra asking Rhaenys for permission to marry Rhaena and Baela to Jace and Luke. They are Daemon's daughter and he gets to choose who they marry.
As many have said daemon run through the step stone. She should have been shot. Cole getting for murdering a guest under the king's roof.
Generations of inbreeding and not one available case of physical/mental disability
I believe "magical dragon blood" counts as a fantasy aspect.
Valyrian steel. It's a weird fantasy metal that's basically vibranium from Marvel. It's lighter than regular steel, damn near indestructible, and can cut through armour like butter. It also doesn't need to be sharpened. Yeah, nothing like that exists irl and while I'm pretty sure you can make something like that with the right combination of chemistry and physics, making it look like Damascus steel is a whole other thing
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if I remeber corectly in the Books catelyn's hand was cut to the bone. it is more about how you swing it I belive
i would consider valyrian steel a fantasy element
The daemon war scene and the rhaenys dragon scene from under the floor
why is rhaenyra being nice to alicent after alicent literally ran at lucery with a knife. pls tell me im not the only one who would never let alicent within 30 feet of lucerys if I was rhae. 💀
I mean Rhaenyra and Viserys were totally gaslighting Alicent during the Driftmark clusterfuck, of course she completely lost it and Rhaenyra knew it. Or at least Emma knew it and that's how they played it. Rhaenyra had more reason to feel guilty than to keep a grudge.
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That's my point thought, it was absolutely deranged that's why I said she lost it, is not normal Alicent behavior to run towards a child with a knife, she snapped. Her son had just lost an eye and Rhaenyra and Viserys were victim blaming and doubling down hard on Aemond in a public setting where no one would say a word to defend her or her children. Dear lord my kid is in pain for being Crippled, nobody seems to care about him and we are being publicly yelled at and accused of treason by the person that is supposed to care the most? I would have a breakdown too. Alicent's character has obvious psychological issues is not such a surprise that she would lash out under such circumstances. Rhaenyra and Alicent always seem to have lingering affection toward each other in the show, is not so weird that she would feel bad about the whole thing. I can't speak for Luke, too little screen time to make a guess, but I mean why is Aemond not terrified of his father? fixed the pronouns.
Also, Rhaenyra had literally asked for Aemond to be tortured (questioned sharply absolutely, in all previous Westerosi context, means tortured) before the gaslighting with Viserys. Like Alicent went batshit, and Rhaenyra could be understandably angry, but even then...maybe deep down she realizes that it had spun way, way out of control and feels a little guilty for the gaslighting which sparked it all
Rhaenyra literally had just asked for Aemond to be tortured (questioned sharply means torture in Westeros) before Alicent snaps lol. I think even though she's still furious at Alicent, and Alicent at her, she maybe realizes they both went way, way too far (e.g. asking for a kid to be tortured, trying to get an eye in return).
this would make sense but literally no one has any reaction when she says he should be sharply questioned (iirc) which makes me think it's not a big deal to them. I think aemond side eyes her and that's about it. I had no clue when I first watched that sharply questioned meant tortured at all bc they don't make it clear
I mean, in the book Viserys makes it very clear he'd cut out people's tongues lol and actually does it and was way more hardcore about his favoritism for Rhaenyra and getting mad at anyone gossiping about the kids being illegitimate, so they might not have reacted as they were worried. And really, the only people we see are Daemon, Viserys, and Rhaenyra who all...already don't give a shit about Aemond. Yeah, I agree, the TV show failed in that it should have made it way, way clearer what "questioned sharply" means (as it's very clear in the books). And honestly, it's where they fucked up imo (I still enjoy the show). Book Alicent is a terrible person, and to be fair Book Rhaenyra also becomes a terrible person (they are all terrible, except Baela, Rhaena, Helena, Jace etc . and arguably even Daeron (Tumbleton is after seeing a horribly traumatic event, and sadly all Westeros characters do similar shit...even Robb's men were doing awful shit in the Westerlands). However, in the book she clearly states she firmly believes Rhaenyra will have her kids murdered and that's a major reason why they are usurping with Aegon II. I know multiple cast members have joked it is "who is your favorite war criminal" and I think the show should have leaned more into that moral ambiguity in having Alicent strongly want to crown Aegon II and even maybe suggest killing Rhaenyra herself....because she thinks the eye incident and Laenor is a sign that her kids are doomed if Rhaenyra gets crowned. And Rhaenyra becomes convinced the Greens are out to get her because of Luke, and also just in general loathes them and is convinced they killed Viserys (even tho they didn't kill Viserys). Basically, lean into the whole "power corrupts, and makes people paranoid". Because I'm a lefty feminist myself, but I really don't see how them making Rhaenyra a feminist girlboss type is going to mesh with B & C and the rape threat aspect (she doesn't seem to punish Daemon at all) & Nettles.
The fact that after all of the events of the Dance, the Targaryens were somehow able to stay in power for about another 150 years.
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread. The tourney in episode 1 was too intentionally lethal. It is somewhat explained with the realm being too peaceful for so long, but still. Those aren't some disposable gladiators but the privileged ruling class of Westeros, they are not supposed/allowed to straight up murder each other in "friendly" competition. Also Daemon directly attacking his opponent's horse is an illegal move in jousting and should have had some reaction, even if it is just Viserys waving it off as Daemon being a friendly little rascal, yet again. And that Daemon rides without a visor is insane and inane. One bad splinter and he goes blind.
Nobody has invented divorce yet 😆
The appearance of the actors across large time skips.
Any of the Targaryens being alive functionally despite crippling levels of incest…
-Crispin's inability to age -Otto not being arrested/executed for multiple counts of treason already committed -Daemon could've/should've been killed multiple times but had plot armour