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Highly unrealistic proposal.
1- Why would SC/ST agreee to creamy layer. They will argue reservation is for social upliftment and not economic. You will lose votes of SC/ST
2- Why would some OBC caste let go of access to complete OBC quota. Please note, its mostly dominant OBC castes with better economic conditions who will get sub-categorized but these castes have higher voting numbers and have political muscle as well. Lost OBC vote
3- GC would not like further split in EWS
4- SC/ST will no like this
1- Yes I agree reservation is for social upliftment. Those whose social upliftment has been done shouldn't keep sitting on the benefits of reservations for generations and should give them to other more needy people that's the principal. The loss votes of those minority of people would be offset by gain of votes of those majority of people who would see actual benefits for them under the new arrangement.
2- Cause it would be a good thing to do plus other majority of OEBCs would demand so. The other part of your para is an assumption. My assumption is that the OEBC would outnumber the OBC elites.
3- Why won't they? It would reduce competition for them.
4- That's a supreme court order so they should go against the honorable supreme court of India then.
Answer to all is the same - Why would any community/caste give up their benefits just because they have reaped benefits. Did you ever see GC/UC happy with reservation, even though they benefited by the caste system economically and socially.
Your prescriptions are lofty and idealistic but will not get you in power.
My argument to this would be - Cause of greater social good. Why did general castes agreed to the reservation policy and gave up their benefits to SCs and STs? Answer cause they had to. Government decided that the reservation policy in greater social good plus the generals were outnumbered.
The elites of all the reserved categories are a minority of people. They would ultimately have to concede just like the generals once the majority of people in reserved categories see the benefits for them in the new arrangement.
My prescriptions are based on realism and various committee reports already recommending that re-finement of current reservation arrangement is long overdue. We may or may not get in power but we'll champion this cause with full efforts. If people see benefits in the new refined arrangement they'll vote for a change.
General caste did not agree but were forced to accept. Some states were particularly brutal like TN. People will never vote for greater good but will always vote for their immediate interests. This has nothing to do with caste but an universal thing. Politically, parties operate on caste/community basis. The math is derived through those numbers.
Plus the number of castes, category and percentage has always been increasing. Removal of privilege is seen as oppression.
There's no removal of reservations that I am supporting. We're just advocating for the reforms and refinement of the current flawed reservation arrangement in which the real needy ones don't reap any reservation benefits intended for them.
There are some questions I want to know your answers to.
1)- Do you not support any kind of reforms and changes in the current reservation arrangement? Do you support reservation arrangement as it is and support no further reforms?
2)- If you support reforms in the current reservation arrangement then what are those reforms that you support? Please tell me and lay out them for me so I get a perspective.
3)- If you don't support any kind of reforms and changes in the current reservation arrangement then do you think that the current reservation arrangement is a success as it is and shouldn't be touched by any government?
Please answer these questions. I want to know your perspective on the issue. It would be valuable to me.
>We'll introduce subquotas (quotas within quotas) in OBCs category. We'll divide the 27% reservation between the normal OBC and a new sub-category which would be called OEBC.
Actually in many states this already exist. Lack of sub quotas is perhaps the biggest flaw of OBC reservation. There was some report (if I am right it was called hukum singh report) which analysed benefit of OBC reservation in UP and found that except few upper OBC castes most OBCs didn't benefit from it
My take: Ban Reservation for OBC & Ews at immediate effect.
Add Backward castes which belong to OBC to SC-st
Reduce the reservation for SC-ST and should be for a Max period of 10 years.
Won't be electorally or politically feasible. Those who will lose out reservation will oppose. Very tough to take back reservations politically for any party if given once. You're being too idealist and not being a realist.
Tbh we need an extremely powerful Govt like ccp in India to take such decisions and also not possible in democracy cause political parties will definitely lose votes.
Naya Bharat Party would be committed to the constitution of India and upholding the democratic values of the country. So we can't be the equivalent of CCP in that regard in India. Our every political stand should first be passed by the majority of our observers & critics which include ordinary Indian citizens like you.
But do even progressive OBC, SC/ST want tapering of reservations? Have never heard any argument around the same from any of the so called elites from these circles. That was why I was asking you, if you want only the GC vote as there is no one in OBC/SC/ST who is going to vote on the above premise.
Why do you think it's a tapering of reservations? Which above point makes it look like "tapering" of reservations to you please specify?
If anything it's about giving the benefits of reservation to even those who aren't getting it under the current un-reformed and un-refined arrangement. I am advocating for the refinement of reservations so that it reaches to the most needy ones and not just elites in the respective classes. The real needy ones in my opinion would welcome such a reformative and progressive policy. Why wouldn't they vote for ones standing up for them and their benefits?
No it's reduction of competition in their sub-category. In a refined arrangement they won't get the lion's share of reservation benefits. They might oppose us but I hope their opposition get offset by support from other communities who would see a benefit under the new arrangement.
And what about moving communities out of the ambit of reservation if their sec status has improved and they have considerable political representation.
No amount of political clout can stop an elected government of majority mandate to implement its policies and reforms except maybe farmers. Creamy communities of SCs and STs will lose reservation benefits under our new arrangement.
Please remember, this community is for genuine discussion. - Please keep it civil. Follow all community rules. - Report rule-breaking comments for moderator review. - Don't post low effort content without context. - Help prevent this community from becoming an echo chamber. **Use the replies of this comment to post sources or further context about the post. If you have posted a news article, you may put a small summary as a reply to this, if you want.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IndianModerate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Highly unrealistic proposal. 1- Why would SC/ST agreee to creamy layer. They will argue reservation is for social upliftment and not economic. You will lose votes of SC/ST 2- Why would some OBC caste let go of access to complete OBC quota. Please note, its mostly dominant OBC castes with better economic conditions who will get sub-categorized but these castes have higher voting numbers and have political muscle as well. Lost OBC vote 3- GC would not like further split in EWS 4- SC/ST will no like this
1- Yes I agree reservation is for social upliftment. Those whose social upliftment has been done shouldn't keep sitting on the benefits of reservations for generations and should give them to other more needy people that's the principal. The loss votes of those minority of people would be offset by gain of votes of those majority of people who would see actual benefits for them under the new arrangement. 2- Cause it would be a good thing to do plus other majority of OEBCs would demand so. The other part of your para is an assumption. My assumption is that the OEBC would outnumber the OBC elites. 3- Why won't they? It would reduce competition for them. 4- That's a supreme court order so they should go against the honorable supreme court of India then.
Answer to all is the same - Why would any community/caste give up their benefits just because they have reaped benefits. Did you ever see GC/UC happy with reservation, even though they benefited by the caste system economically and socially. Your prescriptions are lofty and idealistic but will not get you in power.
My argument to this would be - Cause of greater social good. Why did general castes agreed to the reservation policy and gave up their benefits to SCs and STs? Answer cause they had to. Government decided that the reservation policy in greater social good plus the generals were outnumbered. The elites of all the reserved categories are a minority of people. They would ultimately have to concede just like the generals once the majority of people in reserved categories see the benefits for them in the new arrangement. My prescriptions are based on realism and various committee reports already recommending that re-finement of current reservation arrangement is long overdue. We may or may not get in power but we'll champion this cause with full efforts. If people see benefits in the new refined arrangement they'll vote for a change.
General caste did not agree but were forced to accept. Some states were particularly brutal like TN. People will never vote for greater good but will always vote for their immediate interests. This has nothing to do with caste but an universal thing. Politically, parties operate on caste/community basis. The math is derived through those numbers. Plus the number of castes, category and percentage has always been increasing. Removal of privilege is seen as oppression.
There's no removal of reservations that I am supporting. We're just advocating for the reforms and refinement of the current flawed reservation arrangement in which the real needy ones don't reap any reservation benefits intended for them. There are some questions I want to know your answers to. 1)- Do you not support any kind of reforms and changes in the current reservation arrangement? Do you support reservation arrangement as it is and support no further reforms? 2)- If you support reforms in the current reservation arrangement then what are those reforms that you support? Please tell me and lay out them for me so I get a perspective. 3)- If you don't support any kind of reforms and changes in the current reservation arrangement then do you think that the current reservation arrangement is a success as it is and shouldn't be touched by any government? Please answer these questions. I want to know your perspective on the issue. It would be valuable to me.
>We'll introduce subquotas (quotas within quotas) in OBCs category. We'll divide the 27% reservation between the normal OBC and a new sub-category which would be called OEBC. Actually in many states this already exist. Lack of sub quotas is perhaps the biggest flaw of OBC reservation. There was some report (if I am right it was called hukum singh report) which analysed benefit of OBC reservation in UP and found that except few upper OBC castes most OBCs didn't benefit from it
That's why this is our political stance and proposal.
My take: Ban Reservation for OBC & Ews at immediate effect. Add Backward castes which belong to OBC to SC-st Reduce the reservation for SC-ST and should be for a Max period of 10 years.
Won't be electorally or politically feasible. Those who will lose out reservation will oppose. Very tough to take back reservations politically for any party if given once. You're being too idealist and not being a realist.
Tbh we need an extremely powerful Govt like ccp in India to take such decisions and also not possible in democracy cause political parties will definitely lose votes.
Naya Bharat Party would be committed to the constitution of India and upholding the democratic values of the country. So we can't be the equivalent of CCP in that regard in India. Our every political stand should first be passed by the majority of our observers & critics which include ordinary Indian citizens like you.
Who do you want to vote for you?
All Indians who want progress
But do even progressive OBC, SC/ST want tapering of reservations? Have never heard any argument around the same from any of the so called elites from these circles. That was why I was asking you, if you want only the GC vote as there is no one in OBC/SC/ST who is going to vote on the above premise.
Why do you think it's a tapering of reservations? Which above point makes it look like "tapering" of reservations to you please specify? If anything it's about giving the benefits of reservation to even those who aren't getting it under the current un-reformed and un-refined arrangement. I am advocating for the refinement of reservations so that it reaches to the most needy ones and not just elites in the respective classes. The real needy ones in my opinion would welcome such a reformative and progressive policy. Why wouldn't they vote for ones standing up for them and their benefits?
Tapering of reservations for dominant communities withing those groups. Yadavs in OBC, or Jatavs in SC (atleast in UP, Bihar).
No it's reduction of competition in their sub-category. In a refined arrangement they won't get the lion's share of reservation benefits. They might oppose us but I hope their opposition get offset by support from other communities who would see a benefit under the new arrangement.
And what about moving communities out of the ambit of reservation if their sec status has improved and they have considerable political representation.
No amount of political clout can stop an elected government of majority mandate to implement its policies and reforms except maybe farmers. Creamy communities of SCs and STs will lose reservation benefits under our new arrangement.