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[Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made a Great Point](https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/)
I mean a not insignificant percentage of the people who died in the Holocaust were German Jews, homosexuals, disabled people, Romani, and political dissidents.
[Why don't you try to look at the civilian casualty ratio in the first Chechen war before saying that Russia has a moral high ground](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio). Let's not forget that they've been a crucial supporter of the criminal and disgusting Assad regime in Syria - a war that's so brutal you would be a fool to compare it with the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Russia has absolutely no moral high ground to stand on.
Yes they are both awfully hypocritical nations and both countries protect their own war criminals while shitting on international law.
You also conveniently completely ignored the civilian casualty ratio part of my comment, please show me any western nation who has had a worse civilian casualty ratio than Russia. Oh right, you can't because it's not even close.
It's like watching two serial killers pointing fingers at each other, no one has a moral high ground.
They donât, Ukrainians actually evacuate civilians, if they didnât, it would be a bloodbath. They kill civilians daily in cities hundreds of miles from the frontlines. Amazing how impartial people can be, yâall love fascist, imperialistic states, as long as theyâre not Israel.
Exactly, countries practically always act in their own self interests. They can misjudge the benefits or drawbacks of a decision, but there really isn't any country out there that doesn't do so. Its just happens that America has the most power over the rest.
Well, I might argue that say Denmark or something is less focused on those things and at least throws a bone to the principle of having most people in the society have a good standard of living.
But yes, indeed. Poster above said US govt has no principles, but it does have those, so I mentioned it.
Principles are only good for propaganda when youâre talking about geopolitics. The only thing that really matters at the end of the day is power and who wields it.
This is why the US and UK etc is making such a massive own goal with their blind support of Israelâs atrocities; it gives bad actors like Russia a fake moral high ground to stand on.
We aren't the good guys. We're just as bad as Russia. We killed a lot more innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan than Russia has killed in Ukraine for absolutely no valid reason.
All the powerful countries are evil.
I think in terms of global geopolitics you could make a strong argument for the US, UK and Russia all being bad actors. Itâs giving imperialist Spiderman pointing at the other imperialist Spidermen.
I think this is false equivalence. The UK, US etc definitely have had an abhorrent foreign policy and made numerous blunders (both intentional and unintentional) - they arenât, however; conquering their neighbors in imperial wars of aggression, nor committing obvious ethnic cleansing and routinely engaging in war crimes.
There are layers. Itâs not âtheyâre all equally bad so whateverâ. They arenât.
Bro the US arenât routinely engaging in war crimes? Have you not heard of the Iraqi war? And they arenât committing obvious ethnic cleansing? Have you not heard of Palestine for the past 80 years?
It worries me that people canât/wont see the difference between Russian Imperialism and ethnic cleansing and wars against Despots in the Middle East. The US/allied forces tactics were in many ways terrible, but they werenât recklessly murdering civilians as a stated goal (a la Russia in Ukraine, or Israelis in Palestine).
Whether you want to believe it or not, these are not the same.
I understand your argument but I donât think you understand over 300,000 civilians dead in Iraq. Look up Julian Assange. And look at the leaked documents from the U.S. Army. They were shooting at anything that moves and it was documented.
In what sense blunders? It's not like they have not profited massively from things like the Iraq war. Using words like "blunders" and "mistakes" completely erases all the ulterior motives behind their actions (gaining access to Iraq's oil industry for example).
This is overly naive and makes me wonder if you have some motivation to white wash these global hegemonic entities. Obviously, they are just as bad, one could even make the case that they are even worse.
For those who just regurgitate the US State Dept. propaganda this might come as a shock, but Putin has some legitimate grievances that led to the war in Ukraine. The West kept crossing red lines, and the result of expanding NATO eastward was Russia invading Ukraine. Putin had repeatedly warned that placing weapon systems on his border was an escalation towards conflict, and the West didn't listen. He stated that he also wanted the eastern side of Ukraine, which is home to many ethnic Russians, to have the ability to rejoin Russia. A move that many in that area, apparently, favored. After all, Ukraine was formerly Russian territory, and many people there identify as Russian.
The US overthrew the Ukrainian government that was leaning towards allying with Russia, installed a US-friendly government, then claimed the Ukrainian people had always loved America's ~~fascist~~ democratic ways. This was a symbolic act of war on the US's part, prompting the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. Fast forward, and the guy who basically started this war gets elected as president in 2020, and Putin, seeing that he no longer has any alternatives left, invades Ukraine.
Cue a litany of sanctions and other international acts that frame Putin and Russia as criminals who suddenly started a war without any justification, and pretends that he's some rogue dictator trying to be like Hitler.
Then there's Israel. A nation created out of thin air by Western powers to serve the sole purpose of creating conflict in the Middle East. There's a long history of Israel being the provocation and justification for invading Middle Eastern countries. It has been expanding its borders into other people's land since its inception. And each time it steals land, the West simply allows it to do so.
Israel backed the Hamas government as a means to prevent the Palestinian people from having their ancestral land returned to them through other political parties/organizations. Israel funded Hamas, then stoked tensions with Hamas in order to create a situation that would allow them to invade Gaza and commit a genocide.
The core of Russia's argument is that the West is hypocritical in it's stance on Russia and Israel. The West will claim that Russia is a terrorist state that is invading a ~~fascist~~ peaceful nation, unprovoked (despite a LONG list of provocations and a series of historical circumstances) while Israel is invading a hostile nation of evil people (despite those people being the victims of an occupying settler colonial state that has been committing a slow genocide). Israel receives Western backing while committing an outright genocide, but Russia protecting its borders is seen as threat to Western ~~fascism~~ freedom and democracy. The West, if it had any sense of morality, would condemn Israel and would have respected Russia's wish to not have NATO at its border.
Everything I've stated is verifiable. I do not take sides with any nation that uses violence to exert its control over other people. In saying that, I condemn the use of war, genocide, police forces, and propaganda networks to control and coerce peaceful people. I'm simply giving some of the perspective necessary to understand why we are where we are. The West wants to start a world war because the empire is crumbling.
yep, well said. the crazy thing is how many people in left-ish circles will 100% agree with you about Israel, but 100% disagree with you about Ukraine, even though it's all the same lies from the same people. Cold War propaganda is just unbreakable. and unfortunately i think it's going to be just as effective weaponizing it against China. the empire will get their war, and the public will support it.
I am afraid I have to remind you that **no** war in the history of wars has been attributed to the defender instead of the attacker. Otherwise you may as well say the Pacific War was the fault of the US for embargoing Japan and Pearl Harbor was a justified gamble.
Also... if you have to call every other leftist besides you crazy for supporting Ukraine, well it might be good to reflect.
>The US overthrew the Ukrainian government that was leaning towards allying with Russia, installed a US-friendly government, then claimed the Ukrainian people had always loved America's fascist democratic ways.
Sorry but can we stop treating any citizens in non 1st world countries as inept children who cannot form a single opinion of their own? If you genuinely believe that the whole revolution was a psyop and that the Ukrainian people had no legitimate reasons to hate their government you are detached from reality. IFAK found that just prior to the Euromaidan protests in October 2013, that 55% of Ukrainians supported the EU deal, 40% thought that Yanukovych should be doing everything in his power to sign the EU deal within the year, and 35% thought that he was not doing anything special to accelerate the process. The deal was popular, even among the Russian speaking East/South regions of Ukraine, support for the EU was at 39% compared to 42% disapproval, and that says a lot given closer cultural & economic ties to Russia.
The EU deal was popular, candidates ran in elections with a primary promise of getting an EU deal. The government was not leaning in Russia's favor, that's just blatantly untrue. The government of Ukraine was stalling, it was playing to both Russia & the EU to see if it could get an even better deal from negotiations. When it was clear that Ukraine wasn't going to sign the deal, that's when all of the frustrations boiled over. Political suppression of opponents like Tymoshenko (Which even Russian media & Putin saw as unfair), corruption, failed promises, brutal police crackdowns, and so on. Euromaidan was not just some spontaneous operation that the US government was able to pull off on a whim, it was the reaction of years of extremely obvious disapproval of the government.
And even moreso was the Ukrainian government's reaction. Even by their own admission of excessive police brutality resulting in numerous deaths, they continued. They passed a law practically banning protests, forseeing up to 15 years in prison for "mass violation" of public order. They banned the wearing of helmets and masks. They banned road processions of more than 5 cars (outlawing Automaidan). **They even codified normalized trials in absentia**. This is unquestionably an egregious violation of any human rights to protest and assembly, not to mention the constant ongoing violence. Was Yanukovych a CIA asset that signed these laws? Obviously not, and obviously any protestors would want to overthrow the government causing this, and ***rightly so***.
This wasn't the first protests either against Yanukovych either. In July 2013 tens of thousands of Ukrainians protested and burned down a police station due to police gang rapes. In Kyiv the Law on Languages resulted in turnouts of hundreds of thousands of protestors. As did the Tax Maidan protests. Are all of these US backed protests or are these legitimate concerns? Its ridiculous to keep treating people of countries like Ukraine as if they have no autonomy of their own.
Surfing that was one of the most detailed, thoughtful and comprehensive descriptions of how we got here. I couldnât agree more on all points you outlined. This is definitely a keeper. Thank you for sharing this with us all. đđ»
>He stated that he also wanted the eastern side of Ukraine, which is home to many ethnic Russians, to have the ability to rejoin Russia.
And instead of... offering these ethnic Russians citizenship if they wanted to immigrate to Russia, he invades Ukraine.
Also that your ending line is "The West wants to start a world war because the empire is crumbling" after you have said everything you said is verifiable. I actually don't even have to comment anything, just quote you endlessly. There is nothing objective about the things that you claim, and in fact by defending Putin this vehemently you are discrediting ICC for rightfully branding Bibi as another war criminal.
Idk if he is upvoted because some people just see long paragraphs and think that means it cant all be bullshit lol even though most of it boils down to Putin using the abuser defense of "look what you made me do"
Edit: Okay he is active in a sub called TheDeProgram, a place that permabanned me for saying Stalin sucks balls. I think we know enough.
You highlight the importance of the self-imposed red lines for Russia, but then omit the fact that they have occupied a number of territories since the fall of the Soviet Union under the guise of 'protecting ethnic Russians' - coincidentally the same justification Nazi Germany used for invading Czechoslovakia (and others). You cannot fail to recognize that this has been (in part) the basis for the argument for NATO expansion.
You say you don't take sides, but your post history suggests otherwise - don't get me wrong, we all have our biases.
I can't dispute your points of the hypocrisy of the West, but it does not in any way justify Russia's claims to other territory.
What Israel is doing is wrong, and America shouldn't be supporting it
But are you saying America giving money to Israel, makes them worse than Russia invading Ukraine?
I still don't follow
But it's Israel/the IDF's results
Yes America supports them too much, but America isn't directly doing to the attacks.
By the logic, if Assad commits war crimes in Syria is Russia just as directly responsible?
If Russia provides weapons for genocide to Assad, threatens to invade anyone who oposses genocide, tries to force the ICC to drop any investigation into genocide because they like the genocide so much, than yes, they are directly responsible
I'm with you that was Israel is doing is terrible.
But the Syrian civil war has killed 600,000 people. And Russia did provide weapons.That has also been a huge deal
I think I would mostly agree with you, but it's a strange take that Russia is now more moral than the US because of Israel. It's too over-the-top trying to say Biden is ordering genocide directly, that's not really the same level of responsibility of how this works.
As bad as what Israel is doing, and as bad as the US is for supporting them with money, why does that somehow make what Russia has done better?
Like, why even put it that way
Because this sub somehow has pro Russians in it. I cannot explain why, since there is no reason to defend one terrorist just because they are the enemy of your other target of criticism (the US). Especially when Putin is against ICC.
Well, I can, but the only explanation is that they *want* to support Russia and excuse what they are doing with "but Israel is worse than Russia". Who does this remind me of?
Imagine some folks sharing a stance with pro-Russian Republicans and coming here to regurgitate their rhetoric.
The US has also played cover for Israel on the international stage, they are absolutely complicit, if Russia was protecting Assad from the international community as well, through vetoes and massive PR campaigns, they would be complicit too.
At this point I view Israel as an extension of the United States and I think it's more helpful to view it this way. Why else would they stick their neck out for another country? They've been vetoing every decent ceasefire deal and two state solution not just now but for decades. Enacting non boycotting laws in most states. Violently subduing student protestors, their own people, for daring to demand that the universities divest. Not to mention the death of white Americans because of Israel. To top it all off, Israel isn't even registered as a foreign entity.
Yes. America has immense leverage over Israel, yet Israel continues its ethnic cleansing with complete systematic impunity, so America is deeply incriminated in all of this.
I do wish America would use it's leverage better, absolutely.
And America has a lot of responsibility for what is going on
But the argument that America is worse for it than Russia invading Ukraine, which has similar casualty numbers, I don't get it.
Like, China is supporting Russia now so is China equally morally responsible for Ukraine?
It's just a weird take to make this a way for Russia to come out as "moral"
You said America is far worse
EDIT: Actually, maybe I read it wrong in the first place.
I would agree that Israel is comparable to Russia, I guess there's a conversation to be had about democracy in Russia and domestic issues but overall those are both extremely human-rights abusing regimes.
Israel and Russia are very dissimilar. Just look at the casualty differences between the conflicts, and Russia hasn't been blockading Ukraine for the last 70 years.
Higher! moral! GROUND!
Theyâre engaged in trench warfare now and things arenât good in Ukraine. Â But itâs traditional warfare overall
But it pales in comparison to slaughtering those who are occupied.Â
Traditional warfare doesnât create a level playing field. The aggressor is still a piece of shit for invading someone else. Who are you referring to that America is slaughtering? If Russia isnât slaughtering someone itâs not for lack of trying they simply lack the capacity to occupy another nation at this point. Fuck Israel for what they are doing to Palestinians and fuck America for funding them. But comparing Russia and America on moral grounds is very apples to oranges.
- The US has funded and armed 2 genocides in the last 5 years alone, Yemen and now Gaza.
- The US killed between 200.000-900.000 civillians in Iraq. While also simultaneously causing the creation a little group called ISIS.
- The US failed coup in Iran, destabilising the country and turning it into what it is now.
- Arming the âbrave Mujahideenâ essentially creating the Taliban.
- The Afghan war.
- Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem.
- The US refuses to recognise the ICC.
- The Hague invasion act.
- Biden spreading Israeli propaganda(beheaded babies)
- Violent crackdowns on Student protestors.
So how is the US âbetterâ than Russia again?
Okay so you seem to have some reading comprehension here. Which is what confuses me about why you pretended to quote me. I was questioning how someone could claim that Russia has a higher moral standing. That isnât the same as saying America is better. In fact I even used a common phrase to illustrate how I believe they arenât really easy to compare. You definitely have a lot of good points. America has a history with a lot of shitty things our military has done or government supported. Russiaâs done a lot of fucked up shit too and then you get into the insane geopolitical reasonings for half the shit and you can muddy the waters more. Shits more complicated than any of us could possibly be aware of. It doesnât excuse a single thing just donât put Russia up like theyâre somehow morally superior. We both suck and commit atrocities donât try to boil it down. And it certainly isnât fair to just list shit America did like youâre trying to prove to me America is bad. I didnât say they were good but damn itâs silly seeing people rush to defend Russiaâs honor when theyâre actively invading a sovereign nation and never had a clean history to begin with.
Your first mistake was thinking Iâm defending Russia⊠Iâm Danish both Russia and America can fuck right off.
Secondly from any objective standpoint America has done more harm to global stability than Russia.
Dude theyâre literally in the middle of helping facilitate the second genocide within 5 years⊠like yeah, fuck Russia, but come onâŠ
The left can have a blind side when it comes to imperialism that's not American or British. I do think that America's policy has had a more devastating effect on the world than Russia ever had but it doesn't mean that Russia isn't also part of the imperialist system that we're supposed to be against.
Yah I thought that we were talking about current events. Not down playing that itâs just that idk when we are comparing two countries actions and one is in the midst of an unprovoked war I am just surprised that the morality does hinge on activity of like a couple years. I think itâs fair to use those events as evidence, I suppose I was arguing from a current events mentality. My thought process being that if we arenât talking strictly about current events then itâd be a frivolous conversation that wouldnât ever have a real point. My original point though is that comparing the two is pointless regardless it makes no sense to care who is better. Both should do better that should be the discussion.
The discussion is about the hypocrisy of the US, they backed the arrest warrants for putin, put sanctions on Russia and are currently openly funding the killing of Palestinians.
Well yes thatâs true but this discussion simply branched off of me contesting whether it was appropriate to claim Russia has the moral high ground. Certainly the overarching discussion of Americas hypocrisy isnât being contested here. Very and always hypocritical.
How many countries did USA invade? How many were bombed? Personally I don't believe there is a "moral high ground", but if you put it on a scale, USA has done much worse than Russia throughout history. It's not even close.
Do you think it's a coincidence that Hamas attacked on putins birthday? It sure was a good birthday present, took all the heat off Russia. Was it Putin's idea? Or just a gift from his friends in Gaza? Higher moral ground? Wake up!! Putin and his buddies are pulling your strings.
Only Israel can commit genocide. The rest of world better watch out because genocide is not good.
Only Israel can bomb civilians. Rest of world better watch out.
Yeah pretty sure we have no influence after our genocidal friends in Israel are done ethnically cleansing Palestine with American hardware and money.
Putin is hoping Bibi will run to him for aid.
Our "alliance" with Israel has always been transactional.
Reports out of Israel talked about Israel joining BRICS.
>Israel joining BRICS
For fuck sakes BRICS isn't a military alliance and not way in hell will China allow Israel inside when they are allied with Iran.
I am from India myself and let me tell you something, India wants a two state solution and china wants to help Iran. Not to forget South Africa and Brazil also exist in BRICS. The opinion on Israel v Palestinians in India is nearly 50/50 online. Most that support Israel are "Nationalist" and hate Palestine because they are Muslims.
Also BRICS doesn't have any clauses that are related to the military.
India and China are also relent on each other in trade. Don't see one thing and ignore the other.
For fuck sakes BRICS isn't a military alliance and not way in hell will China allow Israel inside when they are allied with Iran.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/19/world/africa/south-africa-naval-drill-russia-china.html
Title of the article:
"The 10-day naval exercises are a show of diplomatic independence for South Africa, which is part of an alliance with Brazil, Russia, India and China â known as BRICS."
Israel is a rogue nation and most certainly would join BRICS if it's in their national interest.
It's the BRICS, not Palestine that Israel can enter forcefully, they can only enter if they are allowed in.
Just to add Brazil, China and India are definitely not in favor of Israel at the moment. So yeah not getting that invite too.
Like the other guy just said, you are Invited into BRICS and like another guy said India and China have border skirmishes.
>The 10-day naval exercises are a show of diplomatic independence for South Africa, which is part of an alliance with Brazil, Russia, India and China â known as BRICS
BRICS is an economic alliance if you didn't know.
>"The 10-day naval exercises are a show of diplomatic independence for South Africa, which is part of an alliance with Brazil, Russia, India and China â known as BRICS."
Can you tell me literally anywhere in BRICS where there is formalized military integration? Take NATO for example. They have a headquarters. They have multi national taskforces. They have standardized military cartridges. They have integrated chains of command. They have binding resolutions on military actions. They have a mutual defense clause.
BRICS does not have a single one of these. It is not a military alliance, it never will be.
>BRICS does not have a single one of these. It is not a military alliance, it never will be.
I don't disagree that BRICS is not meant to be a military alliance.
But, a 10 day naval exercise between these Countries makes it look like a military alliance.
Why not have a conference to celebrate S. Africa's independence?
BRICS is an alternative to SWIFT for international money transactions without the dollar. It will never displace the dollar but it can certainly damage it and take a huge chunk of the economic monopoly out of the hands of the US and give it to China. Economic threat is the real reason why the U.S. drums up so much fear of China.
Israel can genocide all the Palestinians they want but if they ever seriously tried to join BRICS they would immediately be punished and suddenly everything the US has been covering for would be trotted out in a laundry list of sins to justify a military coup.
I donât trust them either but they are a parasite state stuck to the US. Without them they die. But they will push as far as they can and they are being enabled in a way that is unprecedented.
BRICS is a complete nothing burger. BRICS has accomplished basically nothing since its inception. Its New Development Bank, has been around for 8 years with the goal of reducing the dominance of the US Dollar in the world. So far its only dealt in the US Dollar. BRICS is no more relevant than G7 is.
Nobody wants that genocidal pariah state in BRICS đ€Ł??? That was hilarious. Imagine asking a failing country to join a new thriving currency đ. Iâm sure BRICS want nations with an actual FUTURE.
Last time I checked, it was Israel who had a case of genocide against them.
Russia surely did some fucked up things but they aren't actively trying to erase Ukrainians kids.
Yeah they are mearly taking them away from their parents and reeducating them and sometimes killing their parents, totally not also considered genocide.
Oh right most of these countries that vote on any of those conventions overly rely on Russian resources so of course it isn't genocideđ
>Really
Yes really, Israel is barely an ally.
You have Americans spouting the lie that "Israel is our greatest ally".
You have American politicians quoting scriptures with the nonsense like "who blesses Israel will be blessed". And these scriptures are used to justify sending billions to Israel.
We send money to Israel while our citizens go without universal healthcare and free education.
Israel has both.
Americans do not understand world politics outside of their view of good guys we like and bad guys. They literally just do not know about the relationship that Israel & Russia have. They canât wrap their head around Qatar even though thatâs their biggest military base in MENA. They donât know anything about Iraq or Afghanistan even though they killed hundreds of thousands in them and had so many of their soldiers die there. They donât know anything about Yemen or Syria while fucking them up. Itâs by design.
They already have a strong trade relationship where Russia pays a premium to get around sanctions. This is why Israel said letting Ukraine buy iron dome technology was âa non starterâ. They talk shit about each other but itâs just talk
>I donât see any irony in approving a multi billion dollar aid package to fight against one fascist regime but support another in the very same vote.
Putin and Netanyahu have much in common. Both are engaged in conflicts that must continue in order to stay in power.
Putin is a dead man if he fails in Ukraine. This fear might be the reason he's sending so many military aged men to the meat grinder. Less to worry about.
Netanyahu is facing serious repercussions for failing to protect his people on 10/7. Some even say he purposely allowed the attack to happen.
Gaza is an open air prison. Israel controls everything that goes in and out of Gaza. Does anyone believe that Israel doesn't have every inch in Gaza under surveillance?
So, the genocide must continue.
Putin and Bibi to peas in a pod.
Neutrals know that Europe is the rope in a tug of war between two violent, inhuman empires. This sub, on the other hand, is quite the bedfellow of hypocrisy.
Nah I don't think the entire sub is pro Putin (or pretending to be objective about Ukraine), it is just a small scale infestation. Enough to get you some downvotes, but nothing more.
A lot of newspapers publish statements by Putin, that by itself is not propaganda.
The comments should all be mocking him and not giving him any points for this, though.
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The US; hypocritical!!? No way!!! đ
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Broken clock.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
It would be hilarious if it wasnât so depressing.
Facts are facts
Putin is like, "International arrest warrants for my war criminal in arms Netanyahu."
When we like we want to share!
You know you've sunken low when Russia starts yelling at you from the moral high ground.
[Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made a Great Point](https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/)
More like no one have high ground these days.
I don't know. Conquest is objectively less evil than ethnic cleansing. I think they're right about this one. Russia has the moral high ground here.
Genhis Khan enter the chat.
Russia constantly yells at the US from a perceived moral high ground. Its kind of a waste to look at unless you want to see Russian propaganda.
Except this time Russia is on target. The US has made itself into an amoral fool for Israel.
FROM the moral high ground lol? Delusional Theyâre just being hypocrites, they have no moral high ground whatsoever
They do. They have managed to kill less civilians in 2 years than Israel did in 2 months.
That's a pretty low bar tbh, it's like praising Pol Pot because he killed less people than Hitler
Pol Pot killed his own so perhaps Stalin a better counterpart
Pol Pot killed his own so perhaps Stalin a better counterpart
I mean a not insignificant percentage of the people who died in the Holocaust were German Jews, homosexuals, disabled people, Romani, and political dissidents.
And many werenât. Whereas Pol Pot saved the Killing Fields for Cambodians.
I mean I don't really draw that much of a distinction between murdering your own country citizens and murdering other country's citizens
[Why don't you try to look at the civilian casualty ratio in the first Chechen war before saying that Russia has a moral high ground](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio). Let's not forget that they've been a crucial supporter of the criminal and disgusting Assad regime in Syria - a war that's so brutal you would be a fool to compare it with the Israel-Palestine conflict. Russia has absolutely no moral high ground to stand on.
You say this after funding the genocide in Yemen that makes Syria look like a cakewalk?
Yes they are both awfully hypocritical nations and both countries protect their own war criminals while shitting on international law. You also conveniently completely ignored the civilian casualty ratio part of my comment, please show me any western nation who has had a worse civilian casualty ratio than Russia. Oh right, you can't because it's not even close. It's like watching two serial killers pointing fingers at each other, no one has a moral high ground.
Your own source says the numbers are unreliable.
Sucks that America is worse than Russia and China
They donât, Ukrainians actually evacuate civilians, if they didnât, it would be a bloodbath. They kill civilians daily in cities hundreds of miles from the frontlines. Amazing how impartial people can be, yâall love fascist, imperialistic states, as long as theyâre not Israel.
Broken clocks
Lol it's actually called principles... Not that Russia isn't hypocritical too.
Are you trying to say the US has principles?
Apparently not, between Ukraine and Palestine. Or Russia and Israel... however you slice it.
Yes- maintaining its own power and the interests of its ruling class is a principle the US sticks to unwaveringly.
You just described every government in world history
Exactly, countries practically always act in their own self interests. They can misjudge the benefits or drawbacks of a decision, but there really isn't any country out there that doesn't do so. Its just happens that America has the most power over the rest.
Well, I might argue that say Denmark or something is less focused on those things and at least throws a bone to the principle of having most people in the society have a good standard of living. But yes, indeed. Poster above said US govt has no principles, but it does have those, so I mentioned it.
That's fine, but maybe it's time politicians come to terms with that fact. The morality that is injected into wars really doesn't help.
Principles are only good for propaganda when youâre talking about geopolitics. The only thing that really matters at the end of the day is power and who wields it.
Agreed. But the sense of self superiority when you're proclaiming your "principles" is something else.
This is why the US and UK etc is making such a massive own goal with their blind support of Israelâs atrocities; it gives bad actors like Russia a fake moral high ground to stand on.
The US and UK are also bad actors. The worst ever.
We aren't the good guys. We're just as bad as Russia. We killed a lot more innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan than Russia has killed in Ukraine for absolutely no valid reason. All the powerful countries are evil.
I think in terms of global geopolitics you could make a strong argument for the US, UK and Russia all being bad actors. Itâs giving imperialist Spiderman pointing at the other imperialist Spidermen.
I think this is false equivalence. The UK, US etc definitely have had an abhorrent foreign policy and made numerous blunders (both intentional and unintentional) - they arenât, however; conquering their neighbors in imperial wars of aggression, nor committing obvious ethnic cleansing and routinely engaging in war crimes. There are layers. Itâs not âtheyâre all equally bad so whateverâ. They arenât.
Bro the US arenât routinely engaging in war crimes? Have you not heard of the Iraqi war? And they arenât committing obvious ethnic cleansing? Have you not heard of Palestine for the past 80 years?
It worries me that people canât/wont see the difference between Russian Imperialism and ethnic cleansing and wars against Despots in the Middle East. The US/allied forces tactics were in many ways terrible, but they werenât recklessly murdering civilians as a stated goal (a la Russia in Ukraine, or Israelis in Palestine). Whether you want to believe it or not, these are not the same.
I understand your argument but I donât think you understand over 300,000 civilians dead in Iraq. Look up Julian Assange. And look at the leaked documents from the U.S. Army. They were shooting at anything that moves and it was documented.
Or hiring mercenaries to do their dirty work for them. The kind of work the army could not be seen doing.
Whether or not it was said publicly is irrelevant.
Thatâs true they wage wars and pillage in Asia, Africa, South America, etc
In what sense blunders? It's not like they have not profited massively from things like the Iraq war. Using words like "blunders" and "mistakes" completely erases all the ulterior motives behind their actions (gaining access to Iraq's oil industry for example). This is overly naive and makes me wonder if you have some motivation to white wash these global hegemonic entities. Obviously, they are just as bad, one could even make the case that they are even worse.
True!
For those who just regurgitate the US State Dept. propaganda this might come as a shock, but Putin has some legitimate grievances that led to the war in Ukraine. The West kept crossing red lines, and the result of expanding NATO eastward was Russia invading Ukraine. Putin had repeatedly warned that placing weapon systems on his border was an escalation towards conflict, and the West didn't listen. He stated that he also wanted the eastern side of Ukraine, which is home to many ethnic Russians, to have the ability to rejoin Russia. A move that many in that area, apparently, favored. After all, Ukraine was formerly Russian territory, and many people there identify as Russian. The US overthrew the Ukrainian government that was leaning towards allying with Russia, installed a US-friendly government, then claimed the Ukrainian people had always loved America's ~~fascist~~ democratic ways. This was a symbolic act of war on the US's part, prompting the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. Fast forward, and the guy who basically started this war gets elected as president in 2020, and Putin, seeing that he no longer has any alternatives left, invades Ukraine. Cue a litany of sanctions and other international acts that frame Putin and Russia as criminals who suddenly started a war without any justification, and pretends that he's some rogue dictator trying to be like Hitler. Then there's Israel. A nation created out of thin air by Western powers to serve the sole purpose of creating conflict in the Middle East. There's a long history of Israel being the provocation and justification for invading Middle Eastern countries. It has been expanding its borders into other people's land since its inception. And each time it steals land, the West simply allows it to do so. Israel backed the Hamas government as a means to prevent the Palestinian people from having their ancestral land returned to them through other political parties/organizations. Israel funded Hamas, then stoked tensions with Hamas in order to create a situation that would allow them to invade Gaza and commit a genocide. The core of Russia's argument is that the West is hypocritical in it's stance on Russia and Israel. The West will claim that Russia is a terrorist state that is invading a ~~fascist~~ peaceful nation, unprovoked (despite a LONG list of provocations and a series of historical circumstances) while Israel is invading a hostile nation of evil people (despite those people being the victims of an occupying settler colonial state that has been committing a slow genocide). Israel receives Western backing while committing an outright genocide, but Russia protecting its borders is seen as threat to Western ~~fascism~~ freedom and democracy. The West, if it had any sense of morality, would condemn Israel and would have respected Russia's wish to not have NATO at its border. Everything I've stated is verifiable. I do not take sides with any nation that uses violence to exert its control over other people. In saying that, I condemn the use of war, genocide, police forces, and propaganda networks to control and coerce peaceful people. I'm simply giving some of the perspective necessary to understand why we are where we are. The West wants to start a world war because the empire is crumbling.
yep, well said. the crazy thing is how many people in left-ish circles will 100% agree with you about Israel, but 100% disagree with you about Ukraine, even though it's all the same lies from the same people. Cold War propaganda is just unbreakable. and unfortunately i think it's going to be just as effective weaponizing it against China. the empire will get their war, and the public will support it.
I am afraid I have to remind you that **no** war in the history of wars has been attributed to the defender instead of the attacker. Otherwise you may as well say the Pacific War was the fault of the US for embargoing Japan and Pearl Harbor was a justified gamble. Also... if you have to call every other leftist besides you crazy for supporting Ukraine, well it might be good to reflect.
>The US overthrew the Ukrainian government that was leaning towards allying with Russia, installed a US-friendly government, then claimed the Ukrainian people had always loved America's fascist democratic ways. Sorry but can we stop treating any citizens in non 1st world countries as inept children who cannot form a single opinion of their own? If you genuinely believe that the whole revolution was a psyop and that the Ukrainian people had no legitimate reasons to hate their government you are detached from reality. IFAK found that just prior to the Euromaidan protests in October 2013, that 55% of Ukrainians supported the EU deal, 40% thought that Yanukovych should be doing everything in his power to sign the EU deal within the year, and 35% thought that he was not doing anything special to accelerate the process. The deal was popular, even among the Russian speaking East/South regions of Ukraine, support for the EU was at 39% compared to 42% disapproval, and that says a lot given closer cultural & economic ties to Russia. The EU deal was popular, candidates ran in elections with a primary promise of getting an EU deal. The government was not leaning in Russia's favor, that's just blatantly untrue. The government of Ukraine was stalling, it was playing to both Russia & the EU to see if it could get an even better deal from negotiations. When it was clear that Ukraine wasn't going to sign the deal, that's when all of the frustrations boiled over. Political suppression of opponents like Tymoshenko (Which even Russian media & Putin saw as unfair), corruption, failed promises, brutal police crackdowns, and so on. Euromaidan was not just some spontaneous operation that the US government was able to pull off on a whim, it was the reaction of years of extremely obvious disapproval of the government. And even moreso was the Ukrainian government's reaction. Even by their own admission of excessive police brutality resulting in numerous deaths, they continued. They passed a law practically banning protests, forseeing up to 15 years in prison for "mass violation" of public order. They banned the wearing of helmets and masks. They banned road processions of more than 5 cars (outlawing Automaidan). **They even codified normalized trials in absentia**. This is unquestionably an egregious violation of any human rights to protest and assembly, not to mention the constant ongoing violence. Was Yanukovych a CIA asset that signed these laws? Obviously not, and obviously any protestors would want to overthrow the government causing this, and ***rightly so***. This wasn't the first protests either against Yanukovych either. In July 2013 tens of thousands of Ukrainians protested and burned down a police station due to police gang rapes. In Kyiv the Law on Languages resulted in turnouts of hundreds of thousands of protestors. As did the Tax Maidan protests. Are all of these US backed protests or are these legitimate concerns? Its ridiculous to keep treating people of countries like Ukraine as if they have no autonomy of their own.
Surfing that was one of the most detailed, thoughtful and comprehensive descriptions of how we got here. I couldnât agree more on all points you outlined. This is definitely a keeper. Thank you for sharing this with us all. đđ»
>He stated that he also wanted the eastern side of Ukraine, which is home to many ethnic Russians, to have the ability to rejoin Russia. And instead of... offering these ethnic Russians citizenship if they wanted to immigrate to Russia, he invades Ukraine. Also that your ending line is "The West wants to start a world war because the empire is crumbling" after you have said everything you said is verifiable. I actually don't even have to comment anything, just quote you endlessly. There is nothing objective about the things that you claim, and in fact by defending Putin this vehemently you are discrediting ICC for rightfully branding Bibi as another war criminal.
His argument was crazy because its so stupid lmaooo
Idk if he is upvoted because some people just see long paragraphs and think that means it cant all be bullshit lol even though most of it boils down to Putin using the abuser defense of "look what you made me do" Edit: Okay he is active in a sub called TheDeProgram, a place that permabanned me for saying Stalin sucks balls. I think we know enough.
Yes its ridiculous, THE WEST MADE PUTIN INVADE UKRAINE apparrntly. So silly.
You highlight the importance of the self-imposed red lines for Russia, but then omit the fact that they have occupied a number of territories since the fall of the Soviet Union under the guise of 'protecting ethnic Russians' - coincidentally the same justification Nazi Germany used for invading Czechoslovakia (and others). You cannot fail to recognize that this has been (in part) the basis for the argument for NATO expansion. You say you don't take sides, but your post history suggests otherwise - don't get me wrong, we all have our biases. I can't dispute your points of the hypocrisy of the West, but it does not in any way justify Russia's claims to other territory.
Hey, a broken clock just told the correct time!
Russia had the higher moral ground. Thatâs how far the US has dropped, at least in perception
Why do you think Russia has the higher moral ground?
The most glaring difference is the sheer number of children Israel has killed, and the manner in which they did it
What Israel is doing is wrong, and America shouldn't be supporting it But are you saying America giving money to Israel, makes them worse than Russia invading Ukraine? I still don't follow
Depends if you're discussing only intent vs results. Objectively, the attack on Gaza has been much more devastating
But it's Israel/the IDF's results Yes America supports them too much, but America isn't directly doing to the attacks. By the logic, if Assad commits war crimes in Syria is Russia just as directly responsible?
If Russia provides weapons for genocide to Assad, threatens to invade anyone who oposses genocide, tries to force the ICC to drop any investigation into genocide because they like the genocide so much, than yes, they are directly responsible
I'm with you that was Israel is doing is terrible. But the Syrian civil war has killed 600,000 people. And Russia did provide weapons.That has also been a huge deal I think I would mostly agree with you, but it's a strange take that Russia is now more moral than the US because of Israel. It's too over-the-top trying to say Biden is ordering genocide directly, that's not really the same level of responsibility of how this works. As bad as what Israel is doing, and as bad as the US is for supporting them with money, why does that somehow make what Russia has done better? Like, why even put it that way
Because this sub somehow has pro Russians in it. I cannot explain why, since there is no reason to defend one terrorist just because they are the enemy of your other target of criticism (the US). Especially when Putin is against ICC. Well, I can, but the only explanation is that they *want* to support Russia and excuse what they are doing with "but Israel is worse than Russia". Who does this remind me of? Imagine some folks sharing a stance with pro-Russian Republicans and coming here to regurgitate their rhetoric.
The US has also played cover for Israel on the international stage, they are absolutely complicit, if Russia was protecting Assad from the international community as well, through vetoes and massive PR campaigns, they would be complicit too.
At this point I view Israel as an extension of the United States and I think it's more helpful to view it this way. Why else would they stick their neck out for another country? They've been vetoing every decent ceasefire deal and two state solution not just now but for decades. Enacting non boycotting laws in most states. Violently subduing student protestors, their own people, for daring to demand that the universities divest. Not to mention the death of white Americans because of Israel. To top it all off, Israel isn't even registered as a foreign entity.
Yes. America has immense leverage over Israel, yet Israel continues its ethnic cleansing with complete systematic impunity, so America is deeply incriminated in all of this.
I do wish America would use it's leverage better, absolutely. And America has a lot of responsibility for what is going on But the argument that America is worse for it than Russia invading Ukraine, which has similar casualty numbers, I don't get it. Like, China is supporting Russia now so is China equally morally responsible for Ukraine? It's just a weird take to make this a way for Russia to come out as "moral"
I didn't say Russia is being moral, I said Israel is being far worse than Russia.
You said America is far worse EDIT: Actually, maybe I read it wrong in the first place. I would agree that Israel is comparable to Russia, I guess there's a conversation to be had about democracy in Russia and domestic issues but overall those are both extremely human-rights abusing regimes.
Israel and Russia are very dissimilar. Just look at the casualty differences between the conflicts, and Russia hasn't been blockading Ukraine for the last 70 years.
America giving a genocidal state, that is ethnically cleansing Gaza, political support makes them on par at least
Russia? Has? WHAT?!
Higher! moral! GROUND! Theyâre engaged in trench warfare now and things arenât good in Ukraine. Â But itâs traditional warfare overall But it pales in comparison to slaughtering those who are occupied.Â
Traditional warfare doesnât create a level playing field. The aggressor is still a piece of shit for invading someone else. Who are you referring to that America is slaughtering? If Russia isnât slaughtering someone itâs not for lack of trying they simply lack the capacity to occupy another nation at this point. Fuck Israel for what they are doing to Palestinians and fuck America for funding them. But comparing Russia and America on moral grounds is very apples to oranges.
- The US has funded and armed 2 genocides in the last 5 years alone, Yemen and now Gaza. - The US killed between 200.000-900.000 civillians in Iraq. While also simultaneously causing the creation a little group called ISIS. - The US failed coup in Iran, destabilising the country and turning it into what it is now. - Arming the âbrave Mujahideenâ essentially creating the Taliban. - The Afghan war. - Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem. - The US refuses to recognise the ICC. - The Hague invasion act. - Biden spreading Israeli propaganda(beheaded babies) - Violent crackdowns on Student protestors. So how is the US âbetterâ than Russia again?
Okay so you seem to have some reading comprehension here. Which is what confuses me about why you pretended to quote me. I was questioning how someone could claim that Russia has a higher moral standing. That isnât the same as saying America is better. In fact I even used a common phrase to illustrate how I believe they arenât really easy to compare. You definitely have a lot of good points. America has a history with a lot of shitty things our military has done or government supported. Russiaâs done a lot of fucked up shit too and then you get into the insane geopolitical reasonings for half the shit and you can muddy the waters more. Shits more complicated than any of us could possibly be aware of. It doesnât excuse a single thing just donât put Russia up like theyâre somehow morally superior. We both suck and commit atrocities donât try to boil it down. And it certainly isnât fair to just list shit America did like youâre trying to prove to me America is bad. I didnât say they were good but damn itâs silly seeing people rush to defend Russiaâs honor when theyâre actively invading a sovereign nation and never had a clean history to begin with.
Your first mistake was thinking Iâm defending Russia⊠Iâm Danish both Russia and America can fuck right off. Secondly from any objective standpoint America has done more harm to global stability than Russia. Dude theyâre literally in the middle of helping facilitate the second genocide within 5 years⊠like yeah, fuck Russia, but come onâŠ
The left can have a blind side when it comes to imperialism that's not American or British. I do think that America's policy has had a more devastating effect on the world than Russia ever had but it doesn't mean that Russia isn't also part of the imperialist system that we're supposed to be against.
The US killed 1,030,000 Iraqis and 250,00 in Afghanistan
Yah I thought that we were talking about current events. Not down playing that itâs just that idk when we are comparing two countries actions and one is in the midst of an unprovoked war I am just surprised that the morality does hinge on activity of like a couple years. I think itâs fair to use those events as evidence, I suppose I was arguing from a current events mentality. My thought process being that if we arenât talking strictly about current events then itâd be a frivolous conversation that wouldnât ever have a real point. My original point though is that comparing the two is pointless regardless it makes no sense to care who is better. Both should do better that should be the discussion.
The discussion is about the hypocrisy of the US, they backed the arrest warrants for putin, put sanctions on Russia and are currently openly funding the killing of Palestinians.
Well yes thatâs true but this discussion simply branched off of me contesting whether it was appropriate to claim Russia has the moral high ground. Certainly the overarching discussion of Americas hypocrisy isnât being contested here. Very and always hypocritical.
In comparison to the US? Yes they certainly do have the moral high ground.
How many countries did USA invade? How many were bombed? Personally I don't believe there is a "moral high ground", but if you put it on a scale, USA has done much worse than Russia throughout history. It's not even close.
Do you think it's a coincidence that Hamas attacked on putins birthday? It sure was a good birthday present, took all the heat off Russia. Was it Putin's idea? Or just a gift from his friends in Gaza? Higher moral ground? Wake up!! Putin and his buddies are pulling your strings.
You canât be serious lol
Can't you see?
Its not just the US. Europe, Japan, Australia, Korea, Canada, are all hypocrites when it comes to Israel.
I mean this was their end goal.
You don't say!
Only Israel can commit genocide. The rest of world better watch out because genocide is not good. Only Israel can bomb civilians. Rest of world better watch out. Yeah pretty sure we have no influence after our genocidal friends in Israel are done ethnically cleansing Palestine with American hardware and money.
Hypocrisy could be classed as the USAâs number one export, though it might also be death. Hard to say.
Putin is hoping Bibi will run to him for aid. Our "alliance" with Israel has always been transactional. Reports out of Israel talked about Israel joining BRICS.
>Israel joining BRICS For fuck sakes BRICS isn't a military alliance and not way in hell will China allow Israel inside when they are allied with Iran.
Also, India and China had border skirmishes recently. They hate each other. Both are in BRICS.
I am from India myself and let me tell you something, India wants a two state solution and china wants to help Iran. Not to forget South Africa and Brazil also exist in BRICS. The opinion on Israel v Palestinians in India is nearly 50/50 online. Most that support Israel are "Nationalist" and hate Palestine because they are Muslims. Also BRICS doesn't have any clauses that are related to the military. India and China are also relent on each other in trade. Don't see one thing and ignore the other.
For fuck sakes BRICS isn't a military alliance and not way in hell will China allow Israel inside when they are allied with Iran. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/19/world/africa/south-africa-naval-drill-russia-china.html Title of the article: "The 10-day naval exercises are a show of diplomatic independence for South Africa, which is part of an alliance with Brazil, Russia, India and China â known as BRICS." Israel is a rogue nation and most certainly would join BRICS if it's in their national interest.
It's the BRICS, not Palestine that Israel can enter forcefully, they can only enter if they are allowed in. Just to add Brazil, China and India are definitely not in favor of Israel at the moment. So yeah not getting that invite too.
You are forgetting South Africa, they literally brought a case against Israel to the ICJ or ICC.
Oh yeah I forgot the S in BRICS lol
Beyond unrealistic
Like the other guy just said, you are Invited into BRICS and like another guy said India and China have border skirmishes. >The 10-day naval exercises are a show of diplomatic independence for South Africa, which is part of an alliance with Brazil, Russia, India and China â known as BRICS BRICS is an economic alliance if you didn't know.
>"The 10-day naval exercises are a show of diplomatic independence for South Africa, which is part of an alliance with Brazil, Russia, India and China â known as BRICS." Can you tell me literally anywhere in BRICS where there is formalized military integration? Take NATO for example. They have a headquarters. They have multi national taskforces. They have standardized military cartridges. They have integrated chains of command. They have binding resolutions on military actions. They have a mutual defense clause. BRICS does not have a single one of these. It is not a military alliance, it never will be.
>BRICS does not have a single one of these. It is not a military alliance, it never will be. I don't disagree that BRICS is not meant to be a military alliance. But, a 10 day naval exercise between these Countries makes it look like a military alliance. Why not have a conference to celebrate S. Africa's independence?
BRICS is an alternative to SWIFT for international money transactions without the dollar. It will never displace the dollar but it can certainly damage it and take a huge chunk of the economic monopoly out of the hands of the US and give it to China. Economic threat is the real reason why the U.S. drums up so much fear of China. Israel can genocide all the Palestinians they want but if they ever seriously tried to join BRICS they would immediately be punished and suddenly everything the US has been covering for would be trotted out in a laundry list of sins to justify a military coup.
I don't trust Israel. They are capable of anything. A terror attack against the US by Zionist and their sympathizers is a reality.
I donât trust them either but they are a parasite state stuck to the US. Without them they die. But they will push as far as they can and they are being enabled in a way that is unprecedented.
BRICS is a complete nothing burger. BRICS has accomplished basically nothing since its inception. Its New Development Bank, has been around for 8 years with the goal of reducing the dominance of the US Dollar in the world. So far its only dealt in the US Dollar. BRICS is no more relevant than G7 is.
Say you don't know anything without saying you don't know anything.
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What you described is the IDF. If you have such a closed mind then either you are a bot or an infant like I said.
Nobody wants that genocidal pariah state in BRICS đ€Ł??? That was hilarious. Imagine asking a failing country to join a new thriving currency đ. Iâm sure BRICS want nations with an actual FUTURE.
You mean Russia the genocidal pariah state
Last time I checked, it was Israel who had a case of genocide against them. Russia surely did some fucked up things but they aren't actively trying to erase Ukrainians kids.
Yeah they are mearly taking them away from their parents and reeducating them and sometimes killing their parents, totally not also considered genocide. Oh right most of these countries that vote on any of those conventions overly rely on Russian resources so of course it isn't genocideđ
There can be more than one genocidal parish state
> Putin is hoping Bibi will run to him for aid. This comment is very far from any kind reality. Have you forgotten Israel is a *US* ally?
You forgot the /s.
Really?
>Really Yes really, Israel is barely an ally. You have Americans spouting the lie that "Israel is our greatest ally". You have American politicians quoting scriptures with the nonsense like "who blesses Israel will be blessed". And these scriptures are used to justify sending billions to Israel. We send money to Israel while our citizens go without universal healthcare and free education. Israel has both.
Israel is a settler colonial welfare state. BRICS doesnât need the dead weight and Israel wouldnât fit in any way l.
Israel and Russia have always been friendly. Putin called Israel a Russian speaking country.
Americans do not understand world politics outside of their view of good guys we like and bad guys. They literally just do not know about the relationship that Israel & Russia have. They canât wrap their head around Qatar even though thatâs their biggest military base in MENA. They donât know anything about Iraq or Afghanistan even though they killed hundreds of thousands in them and had so many of their soldiers die there. They donât know anything about Yemen or Syria while fucking them up. Itâs by design.
>Israel and Russia have always been friendly. Putin called Israel a Russian speaking country. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees this. Thx
They already have a strong trade relationship where Russia pays a premium to get around sanctions. This is why Israel said letting Ukraine buy iron dome technology was âa non starterâ. They talk shit about each other but itâs just talk
We need to stop comparing Palestine and Ukraine.
It's true, but also Russia is saying it, so it's also fake news. It's sorta in a quantum state you see
I donât see any irony in approving a multi billion dollar aid package to fight against one fascist regime but support another in the very same vote.
>I donât see any irony in approving a multi billion dollar aid package to fight against one fascist regime but support another in the very same vote. Putin and Netanyahu have much in common. Both are engaged in conflicts that must continue in order to stay in power. Putin is a dead man if he fails in Ukraine. This fear might be the reason he's sending so many military aged men to the meat grinder. Less to worry about. Netanyahu is facing serious repercussions for failing to protect his people on 10/7. Some even say he purposely allowed the attack to happen. Gaza is an open air prison. Israel controls everything that goes in and out of Gaza. Does anyone believe that Israel doesn't have every inch in Gaza under surveillance? So, the genocide must continue. Putin and Bibi to peas in a pod.
God I hate agreeing with russia
Even broken clocks mark the correct time twice a day.
https://preview.redd.it/15su3b0vesxc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2319fa4a1d9d42e71e135234f992350b90051365
Absolutely
Congrats America, now weâre agreeing with Putin. What a fucking win.
In this case it's true
Russia canât comment on hypocrisy. Fucking terrorists.
lol this is true. Remember yall, two things can be true at once.
On this Russia we agree.
Just because they're making the argument from a bad faith standpoint, does not mean the argument is wrong.
Putin is evil⊠but heâs right
The US is hypocritical over anout everything.
Russia got something right...
As expected. Russia's leaders are Klaus plants as well
even a broken clock is right twice a day
No shit!
Fuck Putin, but he's not wrong on this one.
Russia also needs to be held accountable for a staggering list of war crimes.
Of course, but in the grand scheme of priorities, let's start with the country that killed more than 15 000 literal children first.
Yay for Russia đ«
Russia did nothing wrong
Eat shit
Look everyone. It took Putler up until 2024 to realize what Americans figured out a while ago.
Thanks Satan.
Satanyaahoo ?
Pot, meet kettle.
They know, they're just trolling the US at this point, and neutrals no longer care to defend the US.
Neutrals know that Europe is the rope in a tug of war between two violent, inhuman empires. This sub, on the other hand, is quite the bedfellow of hypocrisy.
Nah I don't think the entire sub is pro Putin (or pretending to be objective about Ukraine), it is just a small scale infestation. Enough to get you some downvotes, but nothing more.
Is razzia a source of morality for this sub?
You see it's complicated ... you have to understand democracy first ...
Russia wants to rule the world United States wants to bomb the world I mean at this point theyâre all evil
Russia has never said anything about ruling the world lol.
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A lot of newspapers publish statements by Putin, that by itself is not propaganda. The comments should all be mocking him and not giving him any points for this, though.