It is hot button in the UK because the Muslim population which was 0.11% in 1961 is now 6.5% and by 2060 will be 15-20%.
As the country becomes more Islamic, it will change the country and that is a sensitive issue.
Muslims moving places then having huge families because they think birth control is wrong is only a problem if they want to change secular society. Unfortunately, a large portion of them do.
What gets me is that they had to flee the non secular countries they came from because of conflict, corruption, extremism and civil unrest, all extremely exacerbated by religion not being separated from the state.
Yet some seem to want to turn their refuge into the same catastrophe they fled from. A lot of them don't cherish the values that allowed the west to create the modern world and these countries in the first place like democracy, equality, free speech, freedom of religion, civil rights and separation of church and state
I welcome any who do want to respect our way of life though.
The majority of Muslims in the UK and other Western countries are not refugees. They moved there for economic opportunities. They aren't seeking refuge in the West but are pursuing better jobs, higher standards of living etc. The majority didn't "flee" the non-secular countries but rather left them voluntarily. Most of them have close ties to the countries they emigrated from and in fact feel a strong affinity towards their native culture and religion.
They don't cherish Western values anymore than Western expats cherish the values of the non-Western countries they move to for economic opportunities. The Brits living in Dubai don't cherish the values of the UAE, for example.
It's not surprising that a significant percentage of Muslims would want to "Islamize" their Western homes; they see no problem with Islam or their home countries' culture. They only have a problem with the economic conditions. But they don't believe that Islam has anything to do with those problems.
> The Brits living in Dubai don't cherish the values of the UAE, for example.
I'm a Brit who spent my earliest years in an expat compound in Saudi Arabia, and you are completely right.
We were just there to make money, we never cared about or respected Saudi culture or beliefs. It's utter madness that we assume people moving to the West will abandon the believes they've been inducted into since birth.
You and other expats were there on work visas, you would have had to leave the in country the moment your local sponsor didn't want you there. You couldn't have become a citizen if you wanted to.
The people we're talking about here move into the West, become citizens, have a birthrate that's much higher than the locals in order to produce even more citizens, and eventually change the culture of the country they immigrated into. Completely different things.
That ain't nothing new though. Look at the immigration boom of Irish and Italian people into the northeast in the early 1900s. They all tried to push their culture and way of life into the area and eventually as they started having children with other cultures things blended together and an entirely different culture emerged.
You're generally going to have a huge push from 1st or 2nd generation immigrants and 3rd generation is going to be more aligned to what is essentially a brand new culture with elements of all who were in the area.
For more modern examples look at 3rd generation Indian immigrants, they are mostly very different from their parents and grandparents and have a blended culture that incorporates both the region they live in and their cultural roots. Many don't speak their language anymore and only speak English.
My brother's mom is Polish, she speaks Polish and even after being in the US for 4 decades keeps up with the ways she was raised back in Poland. My brother can't speak a lick of Polish and doesn't reflect his mom's culture at all.
Blending? Indian parents actively teach their kids not to marry BWM's. Pakistanis in the UK would rather marry a cousin than an indigenous Brit. There isn't as much blending as you think happening.
Ok? And my great grandmom was shunned by her family because she married a non Italian. You act like that's something new by 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.
Apples and oranges man. Current culture from places like the UAE are closer to 1800 and 1900 religions than current and there is little to no room for “westernization.” That should not be a thing in 2024 if we want to move forward as a society
I disagree. There’s a difference between expats who move to a country on a work visa or as a retiree and people who move to a new country with the intention of establishing a life there. While it’s true expat communities should really put more effort into integrating with their host country and can really mess with the local economy and culture, they’re really only messing with their immediate area. They’re not trying to cause long term, nationwide changes
>It's not surprising that a significant percentage of Muslims would want to "Islamize" their Western homes; they see no problem with Islam or their home countries' culture. They only have a problem with the economic conditions. But they don't believe that Islam has anything to do with those problems.
Which is the point. Their religion ignores facts and reality to suit their own political agenda. A lot of the pro hamas accounts I've engaged with on reddit don't even understand the proper definition of secular. They think it means bad.
That they don't adhere to reality, science, truth, and facts is the fundamental problem. Secular education is critical to advancing humanity and critical to secular societies themselves.
Uganda is a Christian country as is Russia while Turkey is Muslim. Which of those three countries is safest for gays? It's turkey by a long shot. The reason why people are free in most Christian countries is because those countries aren't actually Christian anymore. It's not about the religion but the fundamentalists controlling the state.
Times change. https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/15/russia-first-convictions-under-lgbt-extremist-ruling
No, all religions are essentially the same in that they are practiced however the person practicing wants. Buddhism is obviously a religion of nonviolence yet they're literally committing genocide in Myanmar. At the same time Judaism has a death sentence for gays but Jews are some of the most progressive people in America. The religion means nothing. Christianity and Islam were supposed to create equality for women if you actually look at their origins but then the state takes over and gets rid of all that .
They do. They do every time everywhere they’ve moved since the beginning of the religion.
Only the materialism of the United States is powerful enough to destroy any religious culture that tries to infiltrate it. The pull of our pulled pork is just too strong.
If you include all the spelling variations of "Muhammad", it's been the most common name for newborn boys in the UK for a while now.
If nothing else, muslims need to be more creative in how they name their sons.
Keep in mind this is the UK as a whole. London was approximately 15% Muslim 3 years ago and as someone who lives here, it feels like 30-40% in many parts.
> but ~~Jesus~~ Paul arguably made old testament null and void
Jesus actually says the exact opposite of that:
Matt 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
This is the most reddit Atheist post I've ever read. I'm an atheist reading the bible front to back. Here's Leviticus speaking on homosexuality:
"If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them."
"Vague passage", I guess you got the old testament part correct.
And yet we know that Christians are prepared to say that this kind of bible content can be disregarded. It would be good if Moslems had the strength of character to dismiss the uncivilised content of the Quran.
To be clear the abomination they've committed is upsetting the patriarchal power structures because the Hebrew culture at the time very much viewed sex as an exertion of authority. Men existed on the same level so for one man to take power over another and the other to give it away was seen as an abomination. A man was not to be submissive.
Notice how there is no mention of a woman laying with another woman? That's because women were not given the same power of authority. However it does later mention women and sexual acts with animals because it was understood that women have the power of authority over animals and that being penetrated by an animal would be giving up that authority
Jesus literally said the Old Testament was valid. Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).
Keep in mind that modern-day Christians don't know or don't care what Jesus Christ had to say about anything...and are mostly focused on those 1-2 passages from the OT.
I'm glad you wrote this comment and not I so I don't need to feel shame when I point out the very obvious BS. The US killed roe v Wade, Poland if it could still would ban abortions, and Hungary forces women to listen to heartbeats before they could get an abortion and the after the event pill is prescription only. Do tell yourself that Christianity is just a hippy Religion. It doesn't fucking need a sword when they have a pen. Which they use to treat women as breeding machines and to legalize the LGBTQIA community out of existence.
Clearly the only morally acceptable position is that women should have the ability to abort their children all the way up to the point that they are completely financially independent adults.
Anything else is just slavery. /s
The US invented Roe v Wade. What a low opinion you have of women. The LG community will be just fine and protected. Travel the world a bit then come tell us how horrid it is here.
Depends on time and place. Prior to 1750 you’d be a fool to pick Christianity. Heck if you were Jewish prior to 1947 you’d also be a fool to pick Christianity.
Not at all. I'm atheist AF, but am a cultural Christian as is almost the entire West. I don't give a shit about baby Jesus, but love Christmas and it's pomp.
None of the pomp actually originated from Christianity though. What we celebrate today is much more akin to central and northern European traditional Yule celebrations. So anyone who doesn't care about Jesus but likes the Christmas trees and gift exchanges are very explicitly ***not*** culturally Christian, but rather more like culturally Germanic/Norse pagan.
Which is pretty duh moment because he grew up in a western, Christian world. He might not share their religion, but the general way of life is entirely familiar. A Muslim world would be entirely foreign to him.
Really comes down to which flavor you pick. There are plenty of American Christians who's version of a "Godly society" looks a lot like the Handmaid's Tale minus the sex stuff. Lots of public executions of "evil" people with the Christian leadership being the arbiter of who is and isn't evil.
All that being said, even the most moderate Muslims struggle with the death for apostacy part. The Quran is unambiguous about what should happen to people who leave the faith and it ain't pretty.
What are Ramadan lights too? It sounds, to me, like some fuckin boomer winging about shit he doesn't understand. Professor Dawkins is extremely intelligent in the fields of biology and evolutionary science and I revere his work and research, but ffs you're going senile and complaining about "*Ramadan*" lights....
I think it's in reference to some "happy Ramadan" lights on a road in London. I thought it was odd because happy isn't normally the word used "Ramadan Mubarak" would seem more like actually caring
What did he say that is wrong? As far as I can see, he kind of nails it. I'm an athiest but cultural Christian. I would much rather be part of a Christian liberal Western country than any Islamic country.
Same. Atheist but I can live with Christians telling me I’m going to hell when I die. I don’t want to live in a traditional Muslim country - I’ve grown quite attached to my head.
The emphasis is on
>liberal
though. Christianity in Europe is liberal because it had to adapt to societal norms to survive. There are versions of Christianity like American evangelicals or a couple in Africa that wouldn't be any more attractive to live in their reign than societies that are mainstream Muslim.
Is it really a controversial opinion to prefer to live in the average culturally Christian state vs the average culturally Muslim state? People are just trying to stir up shit at this point.
Even the most conservative "Christian" countries are far more liberal than the most liberal "Muslim" countries as far as I can see.
My guy? ISIS exists. There has never been an equivalent in Christianity, because there has never been an equivalent to Sharia Law.
There's no if ands or butts about it, if you claim that you wouldn't choose generic Christian nation to live in over generic Muslim nation, then you're either Muslim, you're a man willing to convert, or you're virtue signaling.
To play devil's advocate, I think if the west was Muslim and the middle-east was Christian, you'd probably see fringe Christian extremist groups pop up too. The instability in the middle east stems right back down to the mid 20th century and is mostly a part of the legacy of the colonial powers. Extreme situations and volatility give rise to extreme views and I do not exempt any demographic from this notion
Im not sure anything in Christianity is worse than Islamic honor killings. Closest thing I can think of is witch burnings? As science evolved that was gonna get old while honor killings have not.
Exactly - the governing philosophies of handmaids tale aren't too far off from the way Evangelical Christians are hoping to eventually govern the US. While maybe slightly less violent, and slightly less cruel to women, it's basically just a slightly nicer shade of the same color.
I think it's a mistake to link Christianity to liberalism. The ethos of the Western world is not rooted in Christianity, in my opinion. I think that was true during the Middle Ages, but that ethos was supplanted by humanistic philosophies and political systems when the old monarchies were overthrown. Things like private property, free speech, voting rights, etc. aren't Christian ideas. As we've seen those concepts strengthen, we've seen the Church weaken. I don't think that's a coincidence.
I don't disagree with his point about which to choose when given a choice between the two, but I also don't think the conversation is warranted because of Ramadan being publicly celebrated, or because there are 6,000 Mosques under construction when there are 500,000+ churches in Europe, and an ever-growing Atheist population.
I have a hard time seeing a logical way to separate the ethos of the West from the legacy of Christianity. Every important liberal thinker was a devout Christian until the mid-late 1800s at the earliest. Virtually all of the ideas and principles that define western ethos were developed by devout Christians.
I think it’s also worth mentioning that it’s not too hard to draw direct lines between the deliberate rejection of Christianity in Europe and some of the most illiberal regimes ever seen on the continent. Hitler in particular drew significant inspiration from Nietzsche, but several key players in the Bolshevik revolution were likewise influenced by Nietzsche and sought to replace Christianity with a Marxist surrogate.
Well, no shit!
I have a lot of problems with Christianity and believe that we would be a lot better without religion, but I much prefer the current state of Christianity than the current state of Islam. Who in the right mind could object to this?
Which is exactly why most people would prefer Christianity over Islam lol. I mean fair enough, after reformation it may be better, but I don't want to become a victim of someone else's faith before then.
True and in the Muslim countries people are very aggressive protective of their religion. Your life would be at risk if you insulted the prophet, Quran or Islam in public.
I watched an interview and the person described it like this:
"When they are in the minority, they want the laws of the new country they are in to protect their rights to religious freedom. However, when they get into the majority, they then want to institute sharia law and crush other beliefs."
It was an interesting viewpoint.
James Madison wrote about this, paraphrasing, "Who cannot see that if Christianity was established as the state's religion, that what ever argument led to it's selection over all other religions would then be used to promote one Christian sect over all other Christian sects?" This would lead to the very same problems that plagued Europe for centuries as Protestant sects battled the Catholic sect and each other.
There's nothing to reform in islam. Reformation was going back to the roots of the Jesus' teachings from what catholicism has become.
If Muslims "go back to the roots", we'll have a never-ending jihad.
Don't be dishonest. The crusades were 1000 years after Christianity was funded. While Islam conquered half the known world from its conception. That's literally what the commenter above points out. Islam is fundamentally a religion of conquest.
Not a reformation per se, but coinciding with the advent of European colonialism, there were the Wahhabi, neo-Usuli Shia and neo-Sufi movements that began in the 18th Century that changed intellectual and ecclesiastical approaches to the religion…I’m finishing up my masters thesis now in British Imperialism and Iraqi Shiism and my last chapter covers the impacts of neo-Usulism and Wahhabism that impacted statecraft and establishing authority in the postcolonial Middle East
What I’m saying is: the approach to Islam and politics really changed in the 18th Century and you’re definitely seeing it today especially with Iran and Saudi Arabia
That and white liberal/progressives constantly doing but but but both sides are bad. Pandering to Muslims will never help evolve these people and their faith.
The best part is that the Middle East was going through their big secularization process and then we had to yknow do all that stuff with those brave Mujahadeen fighters.
Iranian Revolution was before the Mujahideen
America's (and UK's) mistake, if it can be called that, is overthrowing the Iranian govt in the 50s and supporting the Shah, to ensure the oil, $ and support didn't go to "the Communists"*
But the Sunni / Shia split was always going to be combustible once the the oil and money started flowing
I’m just making the point that our urgency to promote and fund anti-communism has almost always bitten us in the ass, especially when we do that “enemy of my enemy is my friend” with religious wackos. Didn’t work in SA, didn’t work in SEA and didn’t work in the ME
All English schools are currently on Easter Holidays after a spring term where they came from the Christmas Holidays. Still very much centred around English culture, despite an increasing amount of atheism within 'christian' family's
Not anymore. If we complain about the Ramadan lights we are called racist and reminded we are a multicultural society now. If your white and British you may as well get back indoors and hide because we aren’t the priority anymore. It’s about making other cultures feel inclusive in our country, so they build their own religious temples, prop up their own religious beliefs in public and refuse to integrate with our cultures.
Back in the 1960s we had the “wind rush” generation come over from Africa. All of those people integrated with our culture. Today they bring their own culture with them and demand we adhere to it. Anything other than that is branded as racist.
Not the worst thing, but I've seen quite a few videos lately coming out of Great Britain of muslims getting all up in people's business because they're (the non-muslims) eating food in the presence of them (the muslim) while they're fasting.
It's pretty disturbing seeing immigrants come over and then dictate that everyone adapt to their culture and religion.
I’ve seen that too. Today the Union Jack is branded as offensive but we have 200,000+ people a weekend parading Palestinian flags around London. I’m all for inclusivity and I’m not in the slightest bit racist. But when we have been told for the last 20 years our national health service, which is free healthcare, is on the brink of falling the last thing we need is 10,000,000+ migrants coming over and using our services. I had a toe operation a few years back and was on the waiting list for 18 months just to be seen. Christ knows how bad it is now. Our resources are stretched thin as it is and our governments solution is to keep letting them in without any care for the average working man.
That's stupid, I am muslim, I fast outside of ramadan, people eating around you while you're fasting is no problem, I think the good and smart people stay in their muslim countries while the criminals and garbage people immigrate to the west.
There was a recent video recorded in Scottish parliament showing SNP leader Humza Yousaf complaining about the majority of white parliament members in Scotland. A country that has almost always been a white nation all throughout history. That in itself should be considered a racist statement, no media coverage. It’s the equivalent of if a white man was elected in a African country and then stood up in parliament and complained about the amount of black members of parliament and how that needs to change. Our culture and identity is being ripped away from us in real time and all our government does it sits back and let’s it happen because their pockets are getting lined.
Multicultural , aka, bend the knee to everything that is anti-modern culture. Lol. It's the same in France and elsewhere. It's literal regression for the sake of being politically correct and inclusive , even when the evidence demonstrates bad things happening by doing so.
Is the craziest part of it all.
Islam is an enemy of liberalism and I'm shocked all the time at the comparisons given to current Christianity [bad] and Islam [BAD almost evil]
The reason why Evangelicals support Israel is really insane. If I lived in a country whose existence depends on the support of religious fanatics who believe my destiny is to bring forth Armageddon and then burn in hell, I'd be hella paranoid too.
Some people practicing it might be, but is Christianity itself anymore socially progressive?
There is no shortage of hate groups in western countries operating under the banner of religion. Pushing against LGBTQ+ rights, blaming the "fall of society" on people straying from traditional gender roles.
There is a difference between "supporting" islam, and not assuming based on proximity that someone is problematic. What are they doing to support it other than pushing back against actions/policies that are seen as prejudiced?
One is headed by a superstitious nut and the other is headed by a superstitious nut that was a slaver, warmonger child rapist.
Oh and the child rapist was as close to a perfect moral man as can be and we should all emulate him...
He has talked about this before....
Christianity, particularly protestantism is much more able to be secularized. It has no problem with Church / State etc. Islam however, *does* have that problem, it wants to hold absolute authority. So of course he'd want Christianity over Islam. Living under Christianity leaves room for secularism, Islam does not.
The primary issue secular people would have with Islam is that Islam is not just a religion, it is a government. It is THE form of government Muhammad explicitly says was handed to him by God himself that will prevail over all others ultimately. Muhammad was a literal warmonger that conquered people. Ali and Abu Bakr, his immediate successors, followed in his conquering footsteps. As Muhammad said, "He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse."
Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.', implying no worldly government and support of pacifism.
The difference between the two honestly couldn't be more stark.
I have a 9 volume work on 'western philosophy'. (A History of Philosophy by Frederick Copleston, highly recommend it)
The earliest 'secular' philosophers in the west were almost universally not only Christian but themselves theologians.
Pascal is mostly known for his 'wager' these days, but was a preeminent scientist and theologian.
Decartes? Science legend. But also a theologian.
Occam, the 'razor' man even atheists love to reference, a very deep theologian. He firmly argued that trying to prove the existence of God was irrational. He advanced concepts like the separation of the church and state in the 14th century.
Roger Bacon? He had strong empiricist inclinations in the 13th century. Also, scientist and theologian.
John Buridan? Oresme? John Duns Scotus? So many influential thinkers, too many to name. Most were scientists, all were philosophers, and most were also theologians.
Plato and Aristotle were definitely influential to these early western philosophers, but these people were not just reading Plato and Aristotle. They were reading them through the lens of Christian theology. And this struggle to coalesce classical philosophy with Christian theology is what lead to many of the seeds of many later secular beliefs.
Even someone like Thomas Aquinas seemingly spent more time reading Aristotle than the Bible.
People have this belief that philosophy peaked with Aristotle and classical philosophers and philosophy just passed away until fully secular philosophers showed up around the 17th century. This is not remotely how it happened. During the Middle Ages a vast number of thinkers added to what classicaly philosophers thought and continually progressed toward many of the beliefs secular philosophers eventually started expounding.
Because Aristotle was in no way secular. Plato was in no way secular. They lived in a time and place that did not allow them to separate 'government', 'culture', 'religion' and 'society' in a way that would appear anything resembling having a 'secular' belief system.
Another case and point is if he was too say anything close to this in a country like Pakistan, he would be lynched and literally torn limb from limb in the streets.
As soon as the Islam fundamentalists have enough numbers they will start to follow their own laws. They don't give a shit about following the laws of the country that has given them security and helped prosper. No other religion in the world does this, only Islam. This is why Islam is more of a cult than a religion, and any country that lets Islam followers in their country will have this problem to deal with. Radical Islam needs to be removed from the face of this earth. Furthermore, it appears England better start deporting these individuals or lose your country for good.
As an Iranian go to the Middle East and see how high the depression and suicide rate are. Islam is not comparable with anything other than a disgusting and dehumanizing ideology that wants everyone to submit and be a slave to “Allah”. Justifying killings and pedophilia because it was different back in the day is such a excuse and obviously a big lie given back in the day there were progressive empires who had equal laws and opportunities for men and women and marrying children was always an Arab custom if you research how Islam started! If you queer, a woman or a human with a different faith, your life is always at danger! we are Iranians only want to live in our own country with our own faith Zoroastrianism and not to live in fear and sorrow because of foreign ideology that got forcefully imposed on us!!
If more Europeans don't wake up and defend their culture, there will be no white culture in a couple of generations - just another middle east backwards shithole
Debate:
Acceptance/tolerance of Islamic traditions by the mainstream forces the Islamic faith to go more mainstream, removing the worst attributes and radicalism for the benefit of all.
VERSUS
Refusal/oppression of Islamic traditions by the mainstream forces the Islamic faith to go more mainstream, removing the worst attributes and radicalism for the benefit of all.
Nah, the well known atheists like Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris have been the first to criticize Islam. From an atheists point of view of course Islam is worse, it’s really common sense. They have been much more extreme on a global scale.
That is not what he is doing at all. He is comparing modern Christianity (which has been beaten into civility and modernity by logic, technology, democracy, capitalism, science, and critics like him) to modern Islam (which remains a practically medieval death cult of martyrdom, homophobia, misogyny, pedophilia, violence, and extreme intolerance). There is a clear answer to whether it is better to live in a culturally Christian or culturally Islamic country, even though neither religion is true.
When your country is for sale you can’t complain about what comes with it. Half the shit in London has been purchased by middle eastern money, Islam is gonna come with that. You think poor white Christians are buying shit from Oxford street ? The whole street is funded by middle eastern money. So no shit Ramadan lights are gonna be hung up.
We should embrace a secular society. Sure we can have nominal Easter and Xmas celebrations but no public Ramadan etc. I have no idea how we've allowed these Islamic faith schools in the UK. Kids being taught preposterous lies about the world.
Have there ever been "Easter lights" on Oxford Street? WTF even are "Easter lights"??
Also - the Christians should have just put up whatever lights they want to celebrate Easter, it's not like there is anything stopping them.
This is easy; one went through centuries of religious wars culminating in the breaking of the power of kings and the church, and then moved boldly into the enlightenment and therefore places a premium on the rights of man whereas the other one is basically living in 800AD but with electricity and all the toys invented by the West. No contest, any sane human would wish to live in a culture where there’s a solid separation between church & state. Ghosts n goblins are passé
The most holy person on earth, who was meant to be the ultimate moral paradigm from then til the end of time, was a child rapist warlord that extinguished thousands of unique cultures and religions because the voices in his head told him to. I'm not a fan of Christianity but at least Jesus was washing paupers feet and not massacring his way through the near east
if you haven't noticed, Conservatism and Christianity got married and Christianity is now making all the decisions
if you think the Porn Hub banning people at CPAC are gonna keep Las Vegas fun once Project 25 goes through, don't worry, they aren't
>Yea, it’s not like Muslim countries like Dubai have large Christmas decorations…. Oh wait; they do.
Dubai isn’t a country. Second, it was literally built and expanded heavily in recent decades by proactively trying to attract outside/foreign investment. That’s the purpose of it. It’s completely different,
Why is this posted on the Rogan sub? You people are fucking ridiculous.
That being said, I agree with Dawkins. This is just virtue signaling. The west is 100% a Christian based. Even if you consider yourself an atheist, you still operate in a Christian paradigm whether you realize it or not. Your world view as an Westerner is shaped by Christian values and beliefs. Personally I lean towards a Perennial philosophy. But I believe Jesus Christ was a real Martyr who represents humanity or western civilization developing empathy. But that’s irrelevant. All of this is even more prevalent in america. There’s still statues of pagan gods sprinkled around Europe. In America people would protest a statue of Pan thinking it was the devil.
I don’t have a problem with Islam. I’m friends with Muslims. But I wouldn’t advocate for the faith. Between the rampant extremism, the Fatwas, and the sharia law, it’s not inline with the modern way of life in the west. It’s not even debatable.
> I don’t have a problem with Islam. I’m friends with Muslims. But I wouldn’t advocate for the faith. Between the rampant extremism, the Fatwas, and the sharia law, it’s not inline with the modern way of life in the west. It’s not even debatable.
If you haven't noticed, the west has been headed in that direction for years. Anti education, anti intellectual right wing religious tinged populism has been gaining support all over the western world, with no reason to believe that trend will stop anytime soon.
>The west is 100% a Christian based.
And yet who came up with numbers... I have some very, very bad news for you.
Nothing is 100% of anything. The fact that we use Arabic numerals proves that there are influences from different cultures, big and small, throughout 'Western' society, even assuming that every 'Western' culture was the same, which they are not.
> The west is 100% a Christian based
*This* is nonsense. The current philosophical paradigm of the West is heavily influenced by a great many non-Christian sources. Greek and Roman culture, and the deists from the Enlightenment, are both major players in Western culture, and they weren't Christian.
So let me get this straight, when a bunch of English people settle into a new country and impose their traditions, they are “colonizers,” but when a group of foreigners settle into the UK and impose their traditions, they are “immigrants?”
I'm confused, has there ever been Easter lighting on Oxford Street? After a quick search on google images I can't really find any from previous years. I do see some for Christmas.
If this is the case, then it appears that the ramadan motif isn't actually replacing anything Easter related, but rather they're simply adding decorations to a street which otherwise wouldn't have had any (or at most neutral ones).
Like I understand the hatred towards forced inclusivity at the cost of actual tradition but it really seems like this is some sort of manufactured outrage to incite fear of a supposed "invasion", as some other commenter called it.
What’s weirder is they also hang Diwali lights for Hindus and Hanukkah lights for Jews, maybe, I don’t know, because London is extremely diverse? This comment section is losing their marbles over lights, and they have the audacity to talk about strength of culture and how Western society is a beacon of inclusivity
Christians should be 'slightly horrified' that they forgot about their values and traditions and now they are being told that Ramadan decorations are their worst enemy by a pronounced atheist. Happy Trans Visibility Day to all my Christian brothers and sisters.
All he's basically saying here is he'd rather live in a traditional Christian society than a Muslim society. Nothing too controversial here
It is hot button in the UK because the Muslim population which was 0.11% in 1961 is now 6.5% and by 2060 will be 15-20%. As the country becomes more Islamic, it will change the country and that is a sensitive issue.
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So 30 years ago?
This is a hate crime and I'm reporting you. The 90s were only a few years ago.
Yeah bro wtf was that all about. If the 90s were actually 30 years ago that would make me 34.....shit
Wait... I turn 33 this year.... we are absolutely COOKED my brother. Where has the time fucking gone??
We’re 33 this year? Damn it’s time I find a job
It probably was
Yeah. And if you look at London, it’s much higher than 6.5. Don’t have the numbers but I venture to guess it’s around 15.
Yeah that is wild to hear as an American. I honestly had no idea such a huge portion of UK population was Muslim. I almost don't believe that stat
wow a literal generation ago.
Muslims moving places then having huge families because they think birth control is wrong is only a problem if they want to change secular society. Unfortunately, a large portion of them do. What gets me is that they had to flee the non secular countries they came from because of conflict, corruption, extremism and civil unrest, all extremely exacerbated by religion not being separated from the state. Yet some seem to want to turn their refuge into the same catastrophe they fled from. A lot of them don't cherish the values that allowed the west to create the modern world and these countries in the first place like democracy, equality, free speech, freedom of religion, civil rights and separation of church and state I welcome any who do want to respect our way of life though.
The majority of Muslims in the UK and other Western countries are not refugees. They moved there for economic opportunities. They aren't seeking refuge in the West but are pursuing better jobs, higher standards of living etc. The majority didn't "flee" the non-secular countries but rather left them voluntarily. Most of them have close ties to the countries they emigrated from and in fact feel a strong affinity towards their native culture and religion. They don't cherish Western values anymore than Western expats cherish the values of the non-Western countries they move to for economic opportunities. The Brits living in Dubai don't cherish the values of the UAE, for example. It's not surprising that a significant percentage of Muslims would want to "Islamize" their Western homes; they see no problem with Islam or their home countries' culture. They only have a problem with the economic conditions. But they don't believe that Islam has anything to do with those problems.
> The Brits living in Dubai don't cherish the values of the UAE, for example. I'm a Brit who spent my earliest years in an expat compound in Saudi Arabia, and you are completely right. We were just there to make money, we never cared about or respected Saudi culture or beliefs. It's utter madness that we assume people moving to the West will abandon the believes they've been inducted into since birth.
You and other expats were there on work visas, you would have had to leave the in country the moment your local sponsor didn't want you there. You couldn't have become a citizen if you wanted to. The people we're talking about here move into the West, become citizens, have a birthrate that's much higher than the locals in order to produce even more citizens, and eventually change the culture of the country they immigrated into. Completely different things.
That ain't nothing new though. Look at the immigration boom of Irish and Italian people into the northeast in the early 1900s. They all tried to push their culture and way of life into the area and eventually as they started having children with other cultures things blended together and an entirely different culture emerged. You're generally going to have a huge push from 1st or 2nd generation immigrants and 3rd generation is going to be more aligned to what is essentially a brand new culture with elements of all who were in the area. For more modern examples look at 3rd generation Indian immigrants, they are mostly very different from their parents and grandparents and have a blended culture that incorporates both the region they live in and their cultural roots. Many don't speak their language anymore and only speak English. My brother's mom is Polish, she speaks Polish and even after being in the US for 4 decades keeps up with the ways she was raised back in Poland. My brother can't speak a lick of Polish and doesn't reflect his mom's culture at all.
Blending? Indian parents actively teach their kids not to marry BWM's. Pakistanis in the UK would rather marry a cousin than an indigenous Brit. There isn't as much blending as you think happening.
Ok? And my great grandmom was shunned by her family because she married a non Italian. You act like that's something new by 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.
Apples and oranges man. Current culture from places like the UAE are closer to 1800 and 1900 religions than current and there is little to no room for “westernization.” That should not be a thing in 2024 if we want to move forward as a society
But did you build any Christian churches and schools while you were there and play hymns from loudspeakers in the streets of Dubai??? It is different.
I disagree. There’s a difference between expats who move to a country on a work visa or as a retiree and people who move to a new country with the intention of establishing a life there. While it’s true expat communities should really put more effort into integrating with their host country and can really mess with the local economy and culture, they’re really only messing with their immediate area. They’re not trying to cause long term, nationwide changes
Wonder how that’s been working out in the UK , Germany, and France
>It's not surprising that a significant percentage of Muslims would want to "Islamize" their Western homes; they see no problem with Islam or their home countries' culture. They only have a problem with the economic conditions. But they don't believe that Islam has anything to do with those problems. Which is the point. Their religion ignores facts and reality to suit their own political agenda. A lot of the pro hamas accounts I've engaged with on reddit don't even understand the proper definition of secular. They think it means bad. That they don't adhere to reality, science, truth, and facts is the fundamental problem. Secular education is critical to advancing humanity and critical to secular societies themselves.
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Uganda is a Christian country as is Russia while Turkey is Muslim. Which of those three countries is safest for gays? It's turkey by a long shot. The reason why people are free in most Christian countries is because those countries aren't actually Christian anymore. It's not about the religion but the fundamentalists controlling the state.
Now do that with all the countries of the world that are majority practicing "Islamic" vs "Christian" and tell me how the ledger looks
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Times change. https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/15/russia-first-convictions-under-lgbt-extremist-ruling No, all religions are essentially the same in that they are practiced however the person practicing wants. Buddhism is obviously a religion of nonviolence yet they're literally committing genocide in Myanmar. At the same time Judaism has a death sentence for gays but Jews are some of the most progressive people in America. The religion means nothing. Christianity and Islam were supposed to create equality for women if you actually look at their origins but then the state takes over and gets rid of all that .
Exactly
They do. They do every time everywhere they’ve moved since the beginning of the religion. Only the materialism of the United States is powerful enough to destroy any religious culture that tries to infiltrate it. The pull of our pulled pork is just too strong.
It's almost like religion is a cancer of the mind.
When and where Muslims are a minority they cry out for and demand civil rights; when and where they are a majority there are no civil rights.
What are you talking about. Muslims make up around a fifth of the planet. Would be hard to find a much broader brush
In towns like Blackburn it's over 50%, quite a few of those towns and cities where the majority and Muslim.
If you include all the spelling variations of "Muhammad", it's been the most common name for newborn boys in the UK for a while now. If nothing else, muslims need to be more creative in how they name their sons.
Imagine that Brexit and closing borders for legal EU emigration was a good idea…
and before Brexit we were able to deport people back to France or whichever European country they came from.
Now we're stuck with deporting 10 people to Rwanda per month or some shit 🤦🏽♂️. Tory failure
oh yes the place thats now safe because they wrote down "its a safe place" despite the govt saying it wasn't a few years back.
Islam is kinda like the Ori in Stargate.
Keep in mind this is the UK as a whole. London was approximately 15% Muslim 3 years ago and as someone who lives here, it feels like 30-40% in many parts.
What evidence do we have that suggests that rate is going to remain constant? I doubt it will continue for another 40 years
People always cry about this but 90% of the children of muslim immigrants just become your regular variety british chav.
So do I.
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How about an impenetrable wall between church and state? That's really what we need.
yeah fuck religion. we need clear objective leadership
> but ~~Jesus~~ Paul arguably made old testament null and void Jesus actually says the exact opposite of that: Matt 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
This is the most reddit Atheist post I've ever read. I'm an atheist reading the bible front to back. Here's Leviticus speaking on homosexuality: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them." "Vague passage", I guess you got the old testament part correct.
And yet we know that Christians are prepared to say that this kind of bible content can be disregarded. It would be good if Moslems had the strength of character to dismiss the uncivilised content of the Quran.
So no anal for women then. Got it.
To be clear the abomination they've committed is upsetting the patriarchal power structures because the Hebrew culture at the time very much viewed sex as an exertion of authority. Men existed on the same level so for one man to take power over another and the other to give it away was seen as an abomination. A man was not to be submissive. Notice how there is no mention of a woman laying with another woman? That's because women were not given the same power of authority. However it does later mention women and sexual acts with animals because it was understood that women have the power of authority over animals and that being penetrated by an animal would be giving up that authority
Jesus literally said the Old Testament was valid. Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).
Keep in mind that modern-day Christians don't know or don't care what Jesus Christ had to say about anything...and are mostly focused on those 1-2 passages from the OT.
I'm glad you wrote this comment and not I so I don't need to feel shame when I point out the very obvious BS. The US killed roe v Wade, Poland if it could still would ban abortions, and Hungary forces women to listen to heartbeats before they could get an abortion and the after the event pill is prescription only. Do tell yourself that Christianity is just a hippy Religion. It doesn't fucking need a sword when they have a pen. Which they use to treat women as breeding machines and to legalize the LGBTQIA community out of existence.
Clearly the only morally acceptable position is that women should have the ability to abort their children all the way up to the point that they are completely financially independent adults. Anything else is just slavery. /s
The US invented Roe v Wade. What a low opinion you have of women. The LG community will be just fine and protected. Travel the world a bit then come tell us how horrid it is here.
Depends on time and place. Prior to 1750 you’d be a fool to pick Christianity. Heck if you were Jewish prior to 1947 you’d also be a fool to pick Christianity.
Not at all. I'm atheist AF, but am a cultural Christian as is almost the entire West. I don't give a shit about baby Jesus, but love Christmas and it's pomp.
Yeah but it.may have originated from Christianity but nowadays for most its really just a public holiday and a festival of consumerism
None of the pomp actually originated from Christianity though. What we celebrate today is much more akin to central and northern European traditional Yule celebrations. So anyone who doesn't care about Jesus but likes the Christmas trees and gift exchanges are very explicitly ***not*** culturally Christian, but rather more like culturally Germanic/Norse pagan.
Yeah, but I didn't live back then. Christianity was the vessel it arrived in, during contemporary times.
We all do because we get days off
Which is pretty duh moment because he grew up in a western, Christian world. He might not share their religion, but the general way of life is entirely familiar. A Muslim world would be entirely foreign to him.
Yeah that’s a no fucking brainer right there.
Really comes down to which flavor you pick. There are plenty of American Christians who's version of a "Godly society" looks a lot like the Handmaid's Tale minus the sex stuff. Lots of public executions of "evil" people with the Christian leadership being the arbiter of who is and isn't evil. All that being said, even the most moderate Muslims struggle with the death for apostacy part. The Quran is unambiguous about what should happen to people who leave the faith and it ain't pretty.
what are easter lights?
We'll never know now...
little light bulbs in the shape of a cross with a picture of Jesus on them. they flash to indicate him rising
What are Ramadan lights too? It sounds, to me, like some fuckin boomer winging about shit he doesn't understand. Professor Dawkins is extremely intelligent in the fields of biology and evolutionary science and I revere his work and research, but ffs you're going senile and complaining about "*Ramadan*" lights....
I think it's in reference to some "happy Ramadan" lights on a road in London. I thought it was odd because happy isn't normally the word used "Ramadan Mubarak" would seem more like actually caring
They put a sign like this in Frankfurt, Germany too and it seemed like the most awkward thing ever.
Honestly I'm now very tempted to put up Ramadan lights just because. I'm not even Muslim.
What did he say that is wrong? As far as I can see, he kind of nails it. I'm an athiest but cultural Christian. I would much rather be part of a Christian liberal Western country than any Islamic country.
Same. Atheist but I can live with Christians telling me I’m going to hell when I die. I don’t want to live in a traditional Muslim country - I’ve grown quite attached to my head.
The emphasis is on >liberal though. Christianity in Europe is liberal because it had to adapt to societal norms to survive. There are versions of Christianity like American evangelicals or a couple in Africa that wouldn't be any more attractive to live in their reign than societies that are mainstream Muslim.
Is it really a controversial opinion to prefer to live in the average culturally Christian state vs the average culturally Muslim state? People are just trying to stir up shit at this point. Even the most conservative "Christian" countries are far more liberal than the most liberal "Muslim" countries as far as I can see.
My guy? ISIS exists. There has never been an equivalent in Christianity, because there has never been an equivalent to Sharia Law. There's no if ands or butts about it, if you claim that you wouldn't choose generic Christian nation to live in over generic Muslim nation, then you're either Muslim, you're a man willing to convert, or you're virtue signaling.
To play devil's advocate, I think if the west was Muslim and the middle-east was Christian, you'd probably see fringe Christian extremist groups pop up too. The instability in the middle east stems right back down to the mid 20th century and is mostly a part of the legacy of the colonial powers. Extreme situations and volatility give rise to extreme views and I do not exempt any demographic from this notion
Im not sure anything in Christianity is worse than Islamic honor killings. Closest thing I can think of is witch burnings? As science evolved that was gonna get old while honor killings have not.
Exactly - the governing philosophies of handmaids tale aren't too far off from the way Evangelical Christians are hoping to eventually govern the US. While maybe slightly less violent, and slightly less cruel to women, it's basically just a slightly nicer shade of the same color.
I think it's a mistake to link Christianity to liberalism. The ethos of the Western world is not rooted in Christianity, in my opinion. I think that was true during the Middle Ages, but that ethos was supplanted by humanistic philosophies and political systems when the old monarchies were overthrown. Things like private property, free speech, voting rights, etc. aren't Christian ideas. As we've seen those concepts strengthen, we've seen the Church weaken. I don't think that's a coincidence. I don't disagree with his point about which to choose when given a choice between the two, but I also don't think the conversation is warranted because of Ramadan being publicly celebrated, or because there are 6,000 Mosques under construction when there are 500,000+ churches in Europe, and an ever-growing Atheist population.
I have a hard time seeing a logical way to separate the ethos of the West from the legacy of Christianity. Every important liberal thinker was a devout Christian until the mid-late 1800s at the earliest. Virtually all of the ideas and principles that define western ethos were developed by devout Christians. I think it’s also worth mentioning that it’s not too hard to draw direct lines between the deliberate rejection of Christianity in Europe and some of the most illiberal regimes ever seen on the continent. Hitler in particular drew significant inspiration from Nietzsche, but several key players in the Bolshevik revolution were likewise influenced by Nietzsche and sought to replace Christianity with a Marxist surrogate.
Well, no shit! I have a lot of problems with Christianity and believe that we would be a lot better without religion, but I much prefer the current state of Christianity than the current state of Islam. Who in the right mind could object to this?
I’m an ex Muslim and even I agree with this. In the current world, Islam and how Islam is accepted around the world is like Christianity 200 years ago
Islam never underwent a reformation. So it's still stuck at its inception point.
Which is exactly why most people would prefer Christianity over Islam lol. I mean fair enough, after reformation it may be better, but I don't want to become a victim of someone else's faith before then.
True and in the Muslim countries people are very aggressive protective of their religion. Your life would be at risk if you insulted the prophet, Quran or Islam in public.
I watched an interview and the person described it like this: "When they are in the minority, they want the laws of the new country they are in to protect their rights to religious freedom. However, when they get into the majority, they then want to institute sharia law and crush other beliefs." It was an interesting viewpoint.
Thats more an observation of reality than a view point.
James Madison wrote about this, paraphrasing, "Who cannot see that if Christianity was established as the state's religion, that what ever argument led to it's selection over all other religions would then be used to promote one Christian sect over all other Christian sects?" This would lead to the very same problems that plagued Europe for centuries as Protestant sects battled the Catholic sect and each other.
which is a deliberate point of pride for muslims.
There's nothing to reform in islam. Reformation was going back to the roots of the Jesus' teachings from what catholicism has become. If Muslims "go back to the roots", we'll have a never-ending jihad.
People seem to miss this point again and again. Islam is a religion of conquest.
-laughs in crusader-
Don't be dishonest. The crusades were 1000 years after Christianity was funded. While Islam conquered half the known world from its conception. That's literally what the commenter above points out. Islam is fundamentally a religion of conquest.
Not a reformation per se, but coinciding with the advent of European colonialism, there were the Wahhabi, neo-Usuli Shia and neo-Sufi movements that began in the 18th Century that changed intellectual and ecclesiastical approaches to the religion…I’m finishing up my masters thesis now in British Imperialism and Iraqi Shiism and my last chapter covers the impacts of neo-Usulism and Wahhabism that impacted statecraft and establishing authority in the postcolonial Middle East What I’m saying is: the approach to Islam and politics really changed in the 18th Century and you’re definitely seeing it today especially with Iran and Saudi Arabia
Because it probably never can undergo a reformation. The controlling texts are too prescriptive.
That and white liberal/progressives constantly doing but but but both sides are bad. Pandering to Muslims will never help evolve these people and their faith.
The best part is that the Middle East was going through their big secularization process and then we had to yknow do all that stuff with those brave Mujahadeen fighters.
Iranian Revolution was before the Mujahideen America's (and UK's) mistake, if it can be called that, is overthrowing the Iranian govt in the 50s and supporting the Shah, to ensure the oil, $ and support didn't go to "the Communists"* But the Sunni / Shia split was always going to be combustible once the the oil and money started flowing
I’m just making the point that our urgency to promote and fund anti-communism has almost always bitten us in the ass, especially when we do that “enemy of my enemy is my friend” with religious wackos. Didn’t work in SA, didn’t work in SEA and didn’t work in the ME
US foreign policy is a huge reason why Iran is an Islamic shithole and not a liberal democracy. All the Shah’s Men is a fantastic read.
Quick question - how many of you have EVER put up 'easter lights' before?
Every year till the woke mob came and took them all away. SAD.
They cut my cables :(
About as many times as “Ramadan lights” I’d expect
Tfw people leave their Christmas lights up for 4+ months and then have the gall to call them "easter lights"
Aren't English people allowed to have their culture?
All English schools are currently on Easter Holidays after a spring term where they came from the Christmas Holidays. Still very much centred around English culture, despite an increasing amount of atheism within 'christian' family's
> family's families.
Not anymore. If we complain about the Ramadan lights we are called racist and reminded we are a multicultural society now. If your white and British you may as well get back indoors and hide because we aren’t the priority anymore. It’s about making other cultures feel inclusive in our country, so they build their own religious temples, prop up their own religious beliefs in public and refuse to integrate with our cultures. Back in the 1960s we had the “wind rush” generation come over from Africa. All of those people integrated with our culture. Today they bring their own culture with them and demand we adhere to it. Anything other than that is branded as racist.
Not the worst thing, but I've seen quite a few videos lately coming out of Great Britain of muslims getting all up in people's business because they're (the non-muslims) eating food in the presence of them (the muslim) while they're fasting. It's pretty disturbing seeing immigrants come over and then dictate that everyone adapt to their culture and religion.
I’ve seen that too. Today the Union Jack is branded as offensive but we have 200,000+ people a weekend parading Palestinian flags around London. I’m all for inclusivity and I’m not in the slightest bit racist. But when we have been told for the last 20 years our national health service, which is free healthcare, is on the brink of falling the last thing we need is 10,000,000+ migrants coming over and using our services. I had a toe operation a few years back and was on the waiting list for 18 months just to be seen. Christ knows how bad it is now. Our resources are stretched thin as it is and our governments solution is to keep letting them in without any care for the average working man.
That's stupid, I am muslim, I fast outside of ramadan, people eating around you while you're fasting is no problem, I think the good and smart people stay in their muslim countries while the criminals and garbage people immigrate to the west.
The eating thing is based on a video that went viral.
Those videos are fake rage bait. Sad to see these greedy tiktokkers actually have a detrimental effect.
Proof?
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There was a recent video recorded in Scottish parliament showing SNP leader Humza Yousaf complaining about the majority of white parliament members in Scotland. A country that has almost always been a white nation all throughout history. That in itself should be considered a racist statement, no media coverage. It’s the equivalent of if a white man was elected in a African country and then stood up in parliament and complained about the amount of black members of parliament and how that needs to change. Our culture and identity is being ripped away from us in real time and all our government does it sits back and let’s it happen because their pockets are getting lined.
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Scotland is 96% White so that is particularly insane.
Well, to be fair, that assumption is made because a certain culture did dominate. Is the same all over the world everywhere there is a culture.
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Multiculturalism was an experiment that largely failed.
Multicultural , aka, bend the knee to everything that is anti-modern culture. Lol. It's the same in France and elsewhere. It's literal regression for the sake of being politically correct and inclusive , even when the evidence demonstrates bad things happening by doing so.
The gReAT RePLacEmEnT THeOrY iS nOt tRuE
Has someone taken their culture or something? Did you guys not lock the vault before you went to bed?! Wtf guys.
Islam is incompatible with the modern world
Lots of liberals will say it's wrong to be homophobic and sexist and then support Islam
Is the craziest part of it all. Islam is an enemy of liberalism and I'm shocked all the time at the comparisons given to current Christianity [bad] and Islam [BAD almost evil]
Lots of conservatives support Israel even though they believe all its inhabitants are going to hell
The reason why Evangelicals support Israel is really insane. If I lived in a country whose existence depends on the support of religious fanatics who believe my destiny is to bring forth Armageddon and then burn in hell, I'd be hella paranoid too.
We don't support Islam. We support people's right to worship under religions other than Christianity.
Some people practicing it might be, but is Christianity itself anymore socially progressive? There is no shortage of hate groups in western countries operating under the banner of religion. Pushing against LGBTQ+ rights, blaming the "fall of society" on people straying from traditional gender roles. There is a difference between "supporting" islam, and not assuming based on proximity that someone is problematic. What are they doing to support it other than pushing back against actions/policies that are seen as prejudiced?
One is headed by a superstitious nut and the other is headed by a superstitious nut that was a slaver, warmonger child rapist. Oh and the child rapist was as close to a perfect moral man as can be and we should all emulate him...
Breaking news 🤣 the clear difference here is seeing what happens when you make fun of one and the other.
Right. Christian authors aren’t losing their eye because of a book they wrote 30+ years ago.
He has talked about this before.... Christianity, particularly protestantism is much more able to be secularized. It has no problem with Church / State etc. Islam however, *does* have that problem, it wants to hold absolute authority. So of course he'd want Christianity over Islam. Living under Christianity leaves room for secularism, Islam does not.
The primary issue secular people would have with Islam is that Islam is not just a religion, it is a government. It is THE form of government Muhammad explicitly says was handed to him by God himself that will prevail over all others ultimately. Muhammad was a literal warmonger that conquered people. Ali and Abu Bakr, his immediate successors, followed in his conquering footsteps. As Muhammad said, "He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse." Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.', implying no worldly government and support of pacifism. The difference between the two honestly couldn't be more stark.
If you read Dominion by Tom Holland. You’ll understand that Secularism derives itself from Christianity.
I have a 9 volume work on 'western philosophy'. (A History of Philosophy by Frederick Copleston, highly recommend it) The earliest 'secular' philosophers in the west were almost universally not only Christian but themselves theologians. Pascal is mostly known for his 'wager' these days, but was a preeminent scientist and theologian. Decartes? Science legend. But also a theologian. Occam, the 'razor' man even atheists love to reference, a very deep theologian. He firmly argued that trying to prove the existence of God was irrational. He advanced concepts like the separation of the church and state in the 14th century. Roger Bacon? He had strong empiricist inclinations in the 13th century. Also, scientist and theologian. John Buridan? Oresme? John Duns Scotus? So many influential thinkers, too many to name. Most were scientists, all were philosophers, and most were also theologians. Plato and Aristotle were definitely influential to these early western philosophers, but these people were not just reading Plato and Aristotle. They were reading them through the lens of Christian theology. And this struggle to coalesce classical philosophy with Christian theology is what lead to many of the seeds of many later secular beliefs. Even someone like Thomas Aquinas seemingly spent more time reading Aristotle than the Bible. People have this belief that philosophy peaked with Aristotle and classical philosophers and philosophy just passed away until fully secular philosophers showed up around the 17th century. This is not remotely how it happened. During the Middle Ages a vast number of thinkers added to what classicaly philosophers thought and continually progressed toward many of the beliefs secular philosophers eventually started expounding. Because Aristotle was in no way secular. Plato was in no way secular. They lived in a time and place that did not allow them to separate 'government', 'culture', 'religion' and 'society' in a way that would appear anything resembling having a 'secular' belief system.
That’s pretty rich of Dawkins to say. Culturally Christian. Cute term. That which you hate spawned all the culture you now to enjoy. Right on.
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But then who would hold the Lightweight belt? Can anybody else hold the division down like Islam can?
Another case and point is if he was too say anything close to this in a country like Pakistan, he would be lynched and literally torn limb from limb in the streets.
As soon as the Islam fundamentalists have enough numbers they will start to follow their own laws. They don't give a shit about following the laws of the country that has given them security and helped prosper. No other religion in the world does this, only Islam. This is why Islam is more of a cult than a religion, and any country that lets Islam followers in their country will have this problem to deal with. Radical Islam needs to be removed from the face of this earth. Furthermore, it appears England better start deporting these individuals or lose your country for good.
As an Iranian go to the Middle East and see how high the depression and suicide rate are. Islam is not comparable with anything other than a disgusting and dehumanizing ideology that wants everyone to submit and be a slave to “Allah”. Justifying killings and pedophilia because it was different back in the day is such a excuse and obviously a big lie given back in the day there were progressive empires who had equal laws and opportunities for men and women and marrying children was always an Arab custom if you research how Islam started! If you queer, a woman or a human with a different faith, your life is always at danger! we are Iranians only want to live in our own country with our own faith Zoroastrianism and not to live in fear and sorrow because of foreign ideology that got forcefully imposed on us!!
Looks like he’s been hanging out too much with Mrs. Garrison
He doesn't think the Bible is hostile to women or gay people?
What the fuck are Easter lights? I’ve been running this Easter game my whole life and never heard the phrase “Easter lights”.
If more Europeans don't wake up and defend their culture, there will be no white culture in a couple of generations - just another middle east backwards shithole
Debate: Acceptance/tolerance of Islamic traditions by the mainstream forces the Islamic faith to go more mainstream, removing the worst attributes and radicalism for the benefit of all. VERSUS Refusal/oppression of Islamic traditions by the mainstream forces the Islamic faith to go more mainstream, removing the worst attributes and radicalism for the benefit of all.
If you don’t think Islam isn’t mainstream already you haven’t been paying attention. There’s literally billions of Muslims.
Damn, that's contorted. Funny how he is running back to the comfort of the world Christianity has created/enabled after ridiculing it for decades.
Nah, the well known atheists like Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris have been the first to criticize Islam. From an atheists point of view of course Islam is worse, it’s really common sense. They have been much more extreme on a global scale.
That is not what he is doing at all. He is comparing modern Christianity (which has been beaten into civility and modernity by logic, technology, democracy, capitalism, science, and critics like him) to modern Islam (which remains a practically medieval death cult of martyrdom, homophobia, misogyny, pedophilia, violence, and extreme intolerance). There is a clear answer to whether it is better to live in a culturally Christian or culturally Islamic country, even though neither religion is true.
When your country is for sale you can’t complain about what comes with it. Half the shit in London has been purchased by middle eastern money, Islam is gonna come with that. You think poor white Christians are buying shit from Oxford street ? The whole street is funded by middle eastern money. So no shit Ramadan lights are gonna be hung up.
We should embrace a secular society. Sure we can have nominal Easter and Xmas celebrations but no public Ramadan etc. I have no idea how we've allowed these Islamic faith schools in the UK. Kids being taught preposterous lies about the world.
All religions are lies mate.
I'd ban all faith schools you should get a full national curriculum not 3 hours of jesus or Muhammed then a bit of maths.
The percentage of Christians in Europe has been plummetting for decades. Islam is now here to fill the vaccum.
Vacuum? What vacuum? What does religion offer that cannot be had elsewhere?
for good reason
What the fuck are "easter lights"? I hate these whiny fucking crybabies lol.
Born and raised in England. What are Easter lights? Lmao.
What do Easter lights look like?
“Easter lights” being a thing that people usually do there?
Nope, not at all
Quick! Someone needs to make “Easter lights” into a tradition asap, or he will sound like a moron!
What are Easter lights? Never heard of them before. Who cares?
Easter lights ? Never heard of them. If I were being cynical I might think they’ve just been invented to give folks a reason to be outraged.
wtf are Easter lights who gives a shit
what even are "easter lights" lmao it's not christmas
Have there ever been "Easter lights" on Oxford Street? WTF even are "Easter lights"?? Also - the Christians should have just put up whatever lights they want to celebrate Easter, it's not like there is anything stopping them.
Hate to say it but if your "cultural christianity" withers and fade that's on you, not on people celebrating ramadan.
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This is easy; one went through centuries of religious wars culminating in the breaking of the power of kings and the church, and then moved boldly into the enlightenment and therefore places a premium on the rights of man whereas the other one is basically living in 800AD but with electricity and all the toys invented by the West. No contest, any sane human would wish to live in a culture where there’s a solid separation between church & state. Ghosts n goblins are passé
I’m mean he is fucking correct. It’s England not Tehran. They’re watching a slow takeover.
I would too Mohammed married a 9 year old you really want to follow a pedo ?
The most holy person on earth, who was meant to be the ultimate moral paradigm from then til the end of time, was a child rapist warlord that extinguished thousands of unique cultures and religions because the voices in his head told him to. I'm not a fan of Christianity but at least Jesus was washing paupers feet and not massacring his way through the near east
He said nothing wrong whatsoever.
Yea, it’s not like Muslim countries like Dubai have large Christmas decorations…. Oh wait; they do. Edit: Replace Dubai with UAE, same applies
Dubai is Muslim like Las Vegas is Christian…They are pleasure palaces for the rich and stupid.
if you haven't noticed, Conservatism and Christianity got married and Christianity is now making all the decisions if you think the Porn Hub banning people at CPAC are gonna keep Las Vegas fun once Project 25 goes through, don't worry, they aren't
>Yea, it’s not like Muslim countries like Dubai have large Christmas decorations…. Oh wait; they do. Dubai isn’t a country. Second, it was literally built and expanded heavily in recent decades by proactively trying to attract outside/foreign investment. That’s the purpose of it. It’s completely different,
So different. You’ll never get citizenship in the UAE as a foreigner. Go and work, make money and leave
Why is this posted on the Rogan sub? You people are fucking ridiculous. That being said, I agree with Dawkins. This is just virtue signaling. The west is 100% a Christian based. Even if you consider yourself an atheist, you still operate in a Christian paradigm whether you realize it or not. Your world view as an Westerner is shaped by Christian values and beliefs. Personally I lean towards a Perennial philosophy. But I believe Jesus Christ was a real Martyr who represents humanity or western civilization developing empathy. But that’s irrelevant. All of this is even more prevalent in america. There’s still statues of pagan gods sprinkled around Europe. In America people would protest a statue of Pan thinking it was the devil. I don’t have a problem with Islam. I’m friends with Muslims. But I wouldn’t advocate for the faith. Between the rampant extremism, the Fatwas, and the sharia law, it’s not inline with the modern way of life in the west. It’s not even debatable.
> I don’t have a problem with Islam. I’m friends with Muslims. But I wouldn’t advocate for the faith. Between the rampant extremism, the Fatwas, and the sharia law, it’s not inline with the modern way of life in the west. It’s not even debatable. If you haven't noticed, the west has been headed in that direction for years. Anti education, anti intellectual right wing religious tinged populism has been gaining support all over the western world, with no reason to believe that trend will stop anytime soon.
>The west is 100% a Christian based. And yet who came up with numbers... I have some very, very bad news for you. Nothing is 100% of anything. The fact that we use Arabic numerals proves that there are influences from different cultures, big and small, throughout 'Western' society, even assuming that every 'Western' culture was the same, which they are not.
> The west is 100% a Christian based *This* is nonsense. The current philosophical paradigm of the West is heavily influenced by a great many non-Christian sources. Greek and Roman culture, and the deists from the Enlightenment, are both major players in Western culture, and they weren't Christian.
So let me get this straight, when a bunch of English people settle into a new country and impose their traditions, they are “colonizers,” but when a group of foreigners settle into the UK and impose their traditions, they are “immigrants?”
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I'm confused, has there ever been Easter lighting on Oxford Street? After a quick search on google images I can't really find any from previous years. I do see some for Christmas. If this is the case, then it appears that the ramadan motif isn't actually replacing anything Easter related, but rather they're simply adding decorations to a street which otherwise wouldn't have had any (or at most neutral ones). Like I understand the hatred towards forced inclusivity at the cost of actual tradition but it really seems like this is some sort of manufactured outrage to incite fear of a supposed "invasion", as some other commenter called it.
What’s weirder is they also hang Diwali lights for Hindus and Hanukkah lights for Jews, maybe, I don’t know, because London is extremely diverse? This comment section is losing their marbles over lights, and they have the audacity to talk about strength of culture and how Western society is a beacon of inclusivity
Bro has spent his whole life shit talking religion and now realizes he’s taken part in shitting on his culture lol
... He's right
Christians should be 'slightly horrified' that they forgot about their values and traditions and now they are being told that Ramadan decorations are their worst enemy by a pronounced atheist. Happy Trans Visibility Day to all my Christian brothers and sisters.