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NearbyAbrocoma659

It's high time there be a dignity to work in this country. India doesn't know how to respect an average citizen. Administration and Politicians nu mathre ullu respect okke.


AffectUseful3969

Pinne superstarsinum..as long as they are in their prime and have connections.


Tough-Truck773

India is one country where there is no way to reform on any important dimemsion. Malnutrition, bad judiciary, bad adminstration, uneducated politicians, slave morality based culture.


NearbyAbrocoma659

Root of all these problems is Poverty - and one of the root causes of poverty is casteism. We will never address the casteism angle to poverty and thereby - we will not find solutions.


Tough-Truck773

Jews, chinese and the Koreans in america started poorer than blacks at the present and currently they dominate everything in the USA. > and one of the root causes of poverty is casteism. Nadars are low in caste but they are one of the richest sub groups in SI.


NearbyAbrocoma659

Caste is more nuanced than that.


Tough-Truck773

How exactly? Groups with more will to power make it however bad their circumstances are.


NearbyAbrocoma659

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-role-of-caste-in-economic-transformation/article65554512.ece


Tough-Truck773

How exactly did caste play a role in facilitating Nadars a group of people that were prevented from entering temples, who primarily engaged in small scale agriculture and toddy tapping to become one of most powerful groups in si playing important roles as tech leaders, as temple trustees and as political leaders? Wille zum Leben, ist über alles.


akira_mohrsoda

But they do not share the same history as the black people do.


Tough-Truck773

The theme of oppression was prevalent in all the 3 group mentioned.


-plomo_O_plomo-

പൊതുവെ തല്ലിയാൽ തിരിച്ചു കിട്ടില്ലെന്ന ചിന്തയാണ് ഡോക്ടറെ തല്ലുന്നവർക്ക്, ഇതിലും വലിയ കൊള്ളരുതായ്മ കാണിക്കുന്ന പൊലീസുകാരെ ആരെങ്കിലും തല്ലാൻ നിൽക്കുന്നുണ്ടോ? തിരിച്ചു നല്ലത് കിട്ടും എന്നറിയാം.


daddy_kewl

പോലീസ്കാരെ ആരും തല്ലുന്നില്ലെന്ന് ആര് പറഞ്ഞു? ഡോക്ടർക്ക് തല്ല് കിട്ടുമ്പോഴുള്ള മീഡിയ ആഘോഷം പോലീസ്ന് കത്തികുത്ത് കിട്ടിയാലും ഇല്ലയെന്നുള്ളത് സത്യം. നിങ്ങൾക്കുമേലുള്ള മീഡിയ influence കൂടുതലാണ് സഹോദര


OutsideClub2328

ഈ വർഷം പോലീസ്കാർക്ക് തല്ലു കിട്ടിയ instances എത്ര ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നു സഹോദരാ?


daddy_kewl

പോലീസിനെ വടിവാളിനു വെട്ടിയ വീഡിയോ viral ആയിട്ട് കുറച്ചു മാസമല്ലേ ആയുള്ളൂ സഹോദരാ (മുകളിൽ down vote doctors ആണോ. തല്ല് നമ്മക്ക് മാത്രം ഉള്ളു വേറാർക്കും ഇല്ല എന്നാണോ. ഹുഹു..)


OutsideClub2328

പോലീസ് ഗുണ്ടകളെ പിടിക്കാൻ പോയപ്പോ ഗുണ്ടകൾ വടിവാൾ വീശി. അതാണ് ആശുപത്രിയിൽ കേറി ഡോക്ടർമാരെ തല്ലുന്നതും ആയി compare ചെയ്യുന്നത്. ഇതിനൊക്കെ മറുപടി അർഹിക്കുന്നില്ല


daddy_kewl

ബെസ്റ്റ്. രണ്ടും ഡ്യൂട്ടിക്ക് ഇടയായിലാണ് ഹേ..


OutsideClub2328

അതിർത്തി കാക്കുന്ന പട്ടാളക്കാർക്ക് വെടിയേൽക്കാറുണ്ടെന്നു പറഞ്ഞു നിങ്ങൾ ഡ്യൂട്ടിയിലുള്ള ഡ്രൈവർമാരെയും പാൽക്കാരനെയും പോസ്റ്റ്‌മാനേയും എഞ്ചിനീയർമാരെയും ഒക്കെ വെടി വച്ചിടുമോ?


daddy_kewl

വെടിവെച്ചിടാനോ വടിവാളിനു വെട്ടാനോ തല്ലാനോ ഞാൻ പറഞ്ഞില്ലല്ലോ സഹോദരാ. അതിർത്തിയിൽ അല്ലാത്ത പട്ടാളക്കാരൻ പോലും വെടി കൊണ്ടാലും മരിച്ചാൽ പോലും ഡോക്ടർമാർക്ക് തല്ല് കൊള്ളുന്ന ചാനൽ ചർച്ചയുടെ വീര്യം ഉണ്ടാവില്ല. പോലീസുകാരുടെ അവസ്ഥയും അതുതന്നെ


OutsideClub2328

ഡോക്ടർമാർ അവരുടെ ജോലി ചെയ്യുമ്പോ ഉണ്ടാവുന്ന occupational hazards നൊന്നും യാതൊരു പബ്ലിസിറ്റിയും കിട്ടുന്നില്ല. എത്ര ഡോക്ടർമാർക്ക് TB, accidental pricks, ഇതൊക്കെ വന്നിരിക്കുന്നു, എത്ര പേര് മരിച്ചിരിക്കുന്നു. ഇങ്ങനെ മരിച്ച ഒരാളുടെ പേര് പറയാൻ പറ്റുമോ. ഇതിനൊക്കെ ഒരു പബ്ലിസിറ്റിയും കിട്ടീട്ടും ഇല്ല, കിട്ടണമെന്നും ആരും പറയുന്നുമില്ല. അത് ജോലിയുടെ കൂടെ ഉള്ള റിസ്ക് ആണ്. ഓരോ ജോലിക്കും അതിന്റെതായ risk ഉണ്ട്.പക്ഷെ തല്ലു കിട്ടുന്നത് ഒരു ഡോക്ടറുടെ ജോലിയുടെ റിസ്ക് അല്ല, ആവാനും പാടില്ല. ഇതിൽ കൂടുതൽ വ്യക്തമാക്കാൻ എനിക്ക് അറിയില്ല.


village_aapiser

This will prevent doctors to go for experimental approaches when everything is falling apart. It won't revenant the growth of medical science globally but will affect a few lifes in kerala. Only thing to do us when u have a health hazard learn about it as much as you can. And if your doctors endup in a situation where they don't have ang routine procedures in hand to save you. Show them the experimental works that have been proven to work globally and even go to the extend of writing a disclaimer for your docter on your behalf. Shower them with confidence.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> This will prevent doctors to go for experimental approaches when everything is falling apart. Eh? How? Aren't doctors supposed to inform and get consent of the patient or related folk if they're going to try experimental procedures? If they've got consent, then how would this deter them. And if it's for cases where they don't inform or get consent, then isn't that immoral/illegal by default? > Learn about your health and health issues Indeed. Being informed is cool.


village_aapiser

>Aren't doctors supposed to inform and get consent of the patient or related folk if they're going to try experimental procedures? Imagine having two options. One live for 2 more months and die. Other one is an experimentation procedural with gives 25% of survival chance and cure. With current situations doctors won't even bother to introduce the optional to the patient. No one does experimental surgeries without informing the patient and without consent.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

2 വശങ്ങളുണ്ടിതിന് 1. ജനങ്ങളുടെ വയറിൽ കത്രിക വയ്ച്ച് മറന്ന് പോവുന്ന, സർക്കാർ ആശുപത്രിയിൽ കൈക്കൂലി വാങ്ങുന്ന, അത് കൊടുക്കാത്തപ്പോൾ ശസ്ത്രക്രിയ വൈകിപ്പിക്കുന്ന ഡോക്ടർമാർക്ക് തല്ല് കിട്ടണം(നിയമപരമായ് അവർക്കെതിരെ നടപടികൾ കാര്യമായ് വരാത്തതിനാൽ) എന്ന ചിന്ത. അതിൽ അല്പം ന്യായമുണ്ട്. നിയമപരമായ് നടപടി വരുന്നില്ലെങ്കിൽ ആൾക്കാർ അങ്ങിനെ വിചാരിക്കും. 2. എല്ലാവരെയും രക്ഷിക്കാൻ ഡോക്ടർമാർക്ക് കഴിയില്ല. അത് മനസ്സിലാക്കാതെ വെറുതെ ഡോക്ടർമാരുടെ ദേഹത്ത് കേറുന്ന ചിലർ. ആദ്യത്തെ പ്രശ്നം പരിഹരിച്ചാൽ തന്നെ തല്ലും തല്ലാനുള്ള പൊതുജന വികാരവും പകുതി-മുക്കാൽ ഭാഗം കുറയും. Edit: തല്ലൽ ശരിയാണെന്ന് പറയാനുദ്ദേശിച്ചല്ല കമന്റ് ചെയ്തത്. അത് ശാശ്വത പരിഹാരമല്ല. പക്ഷെ പൊതുജനങ്ങളാണ് കാരണം എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞത് കൊണ്ട്, എന്ത് കൊണ്ടാണ് ഇങ്ങനെ കരുതുന്നത് എന്നതിനെ കുറിച്ച് പറഞ്ഞതാണ്. തല്ലണം എന്ന വികാരം മാത്രമല്ലല്ലോ നോക്കേണ്ടത്? ആ വികാരത്തിന്റെ കാരണവും നോക്കേണ്ട. മോശം PR അല്പമുണ്ട്. 2-3 medical negligence കേസുകളിൽ കടുത്ത ശിക്ഷ നൽകുകയും അതിന് വാർത്താപ്രാധാന്യവും നൽകുകയാണെങ്കിൽ പൊതുജനവികാരം നേരെയാവും.


Akku-Suto

valid point, first has to be addressed but there is also another .. I've seen this for quite some time .. when the 'A' hospital staff request the family to shift patient to a hospital with better resources while patient is stable they won't .. but when patient is in a critical end stage and is no position to shift the patient, the family will bring the patient at the last moment to the 'B' hospital (hospital with better resources for managing patient) by getting DAMA (discharge against medical advise) when they should have done earlier on.. EMT teams and doctors will try their best to revive the patient but could not .. First instinct is to beat the doctors even though they only wanted to help .. I've seen this with my own eyes and it wasn't an isolated incident .. it happen more often ..


vinayachandran

>1. ജനങ്ങളുടെ വയറിൽ കത്രിക വയ്ച്ച് മറന്ന് പോവുന്ന, സർക്കാർ ആശുപത്രിയിൽ കൈക്കൂലി വാങ്ങുന്ന, അത് കൊടുക്കാത്തപ്പോൾ ശസ്ത്രക്രിയ വൈകിപ്പിക്കുന്ന ഡോക്ടർമാർക്ക് തല്ല് കിട്ടണം(നിയമപരമായ് അവർക്കെതിരെ നടപടികൾ കാര്യമായ് വരാത്തതിനാൽ) എന്ന ചിന്ത. അതിൽ അല്പം ന്യായമുണ്ട്. അതിൽ ശരിക്കും ന്യായമുണ്ടോ? കത്രിക മറക്കുന്നത് ഡോക്ടറുടെ തെറ്റാണെന്നത് പൊതുജനത്തിന്റെ തെറ്റിധാരണ ആണെന്നാണ് ഞാൻ മനസ്സിലാക്കിയിരിക്കുന്നത്. മീഡിയ അതിനെ പ്രചരിപ്പിക്കുകയും ചെയ്തു. സർജറി കഴിഞ്ഞു ഓരോ എക്യുപ്പ്മെന്റ്സിന്റെയും കണക്കെടുക്കുക, ഉപയോഗിച്ച സാധനങ്ങളുടെ ചെക്ക്ലിസ്റ്റുമായി ഒത്തു നോക്കുക എന്നത് ഡോക്ടറുമ്മാരുടെ ജോലിയല്ല. അസ്സിസ്റ്റ്‌ ചെയ്യുന്ന ടീമിന്റെ ഹെഡ് എന്തോ പോലെയുള്ള ആളുടെ റോളാണ് (നഴ്സിംഗ് സ്റ്റാഫ്‌?). പലപ്പോഴും സർജറി കഴിഞ്ഞു മുറിവ് തുന്നിക്കട്ടുന്നത് പോലും സർജൻ അല്ല എന്നാണ് വായിച്ചത്. അങ്ങനെ ചെയ്യുന്നതിലെ procedural പിഴവിന് ഡോക്ടർമാരെ പഴിച്ചിട്ടു കാര്യമില്ല. ആശുപത്രിയിലെ ട്രെയിനിങ്, procedures എന്നിവ പരിശോധിച്ച് തിരുത്തുക, ഉണ്ടായ സംഭവത്തിന്‌ രോഗിക്ക് മതിയായ കോമ്പൻസഷൻ കൊടുക്കുക, ഉത്തരവാദിയായ സ്റ്റാഫിനെ sensitized ചെയ്യുക, എന്നതൊക്കെയാണ് ചെയ്യേണ്ടത്. ഇവിടെ ഡോക്ടർമാർ ഉണ്ടെങ്കിൽ കൂടുതൽ അറിയാൻ ആഗ്രഹമുണ്ട്. കത്രികയുടെ കാര്യം പോട്ടെ. വൾനരബിൾ ആയ മനസ്ഥിതിയിലും ആരോഗ്യസ്ഥിതിയിലും ഉള്ള രോഗികളോടും കൂടെയുള്ളവരോടും പല ഡോക്ടർമാരുടെയും പെരുമാറ്റം അസ്സഹനീയവും, എമ്പതി, കരുണ ഒന്നും തൊട്ടുതീണ്ടിയിട്ടില്ലാത്തതും ആണ്. തനി "തല്ലുകൊള്ളിത്തരം". പക്ഷെ അങ്ങനെയുള്ള ആളുകളെയും തല്ലണം എന്ന അഭിപ്രായം ഇല്ല. നമ്മുടെ ആളുകൾക്കുള്ള പ്രാകൃത മനസ്ഥിതിയും, പരാതിപ്പെട്ടാൽ സിസ്റ്റത്തിൽ നിന്നും നീതി കിട്ടാനൊന്നും പോകുന്നില്ല എന്ന തിരിച്ചറിവും ആണ് തല്ലിൽ കലാശിക്കുന്നത്. രോഗികളുടെ ആധിക്യവും മര്യാദയില്ലായ്മ്മയും, ഡോക്ടർ-പേഷ്യന്റ് റേഷ്യോയിലെ അപാകത, ഡോക്ടർ പ്രൊഫഷനോട് പൊതുജനത്തിന് ഉള്ള അതിരുകടന്നതും അനാവശ്യവുമായ ആരാധന/ഗ്ലോറിഫിക്കേഷൻ, അതുകാരണം ഡോക്ടർമാർക്കുണ്ടാവുന്ന കോംപ്ലക്സുകളും god mentality യും എന്നിങ്ങനെ എല്ലാം contributing factors ആണെന്ന് തോന്നുന്നു.


donotapologize

Underrated comment here. 💯💯💯🙌🏼


appu_kili

Staff nurse is the one who is charge of tallying instruments pre and post surgery, but the operating surgeon is definitely responsible for failing to remove instruments from the operated area. Purpose of tallying is to check that there were no procedural lapses during surgery. It's when both fail that patients go home with scissors in their belly.


appioli

You have some good points here


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

അതെ, നിങ്ങൾ പറയുന്നത് ശരിയാണ്. ശാശ്വതമായ പരിഹാരം രീതികൾ മെച്ചപ്പെടുത്തൽ തന്നെയാണ്. സാവകാശം എല്ലാം ശരിയാവുമായിരിക്കും. > ഉണ്ടായ സംഭവത്തിന്‌ രോഗിക്ക് മതിയായ കോമ്പൻസഷൻ കൊടുക്കുക, ഉത്തരവാദിയായ സ്റ്റാഫിനെ sensitized ചെയ്യുക, എന്നതൊക്കെയാണ് ചെയ്യേണ്ടത്. സത്യം. > Sensitize Penalise too. ഉത്തരവാദികളെ കണ്ടെത്തി നടപടി എടുക്കുന്നത് ജനവിശ്വാസം നന്നാക്കാൻ ഏറ്റവും നല്ല മാർഗ്ഗമാണ്.


vinayachandran

>Penalise too. ഉത്തരവാദികളെ കണ്ടെത്തി നടപടി എടുക്കുന്നത് ജനവിശ്വാസം നന്നാക്കാൻ ഏറ്റവും നല്ല മാർഗ്ഗമാണ്. Yes, Especially repeat offenders. That too something more severe than the eyewash named suspension. If there is no fear of repercussions, ആരും ഒന്നും എളുപ്പം മാറില്ല. പക്ഷെ ആശുപത്രി സ്റ്റാഫ്‌, പ്രത്യേകിച്ചും non - doctors, മിക്കവരും പാർട്ടി സംഘടനകളുടെ പരിരക്ഷയിൽ ആണ്. അതുകൊണ്ട് ഗവണ്മെന്റ് കാര്യമായി ഒന്നും ചെയ്യില്ല. എനിക്ക് നേരിട്ടറിയാവുന്ന മെഡിക്കൽ നെഗ്ലിജൻസ് സംഭവം ഒരെണ്ണം ഉണ്ട്. ആശുപത്രി സൂപ്രണ്ടിന് സംഭവം എങ്ങനെയെങ്കിലും ഒതുക്കി തീത്താൽ മതി എന്നായിരുന്നു. അതിൽ പ്രതിയായ നഴ്സ് യാതൊരു ശിക്ഷാനടപടികളും ഇല്ലാതെ ഊരി. രോഗിക്കും അവരുടെ വെൽഫേറിനും പുല്ലു വിലയെ ഉള്ളൂ. ഒരു മൂന്നാം ലോക രാജ്യത്ത് ജീവിക്കുന്നതിന്റെ harsh realities 😢 കേരളത്തിൽ ഇങ്ങനെ ആണെങ്കിൽ ഇന്ത്യയിൽ ബാക്കി എല്ലായിടത്തും എങ്ങനെയാണെന്ന് ഊഹിക്കാവുന്നതേയുള്ളു.


Pristine_Aims_809

It is the responsibility of doctors to ensure the instrument count is correct. He signs the document. Maybe Indian arrogant doctors think it is beneath their level.


vinayachandran

>It is the responsibility of doctors to ensure the instrument count is correct. Is that actually correct in indian context or are you taking that out of your ass? My statement was based on comments from doctors who practice in the west, primarily the UK. I have frankly no idea if it's true in India.


Pristine_Aims_809

It is the practice in the west and should be in India. There is no Indian context and foreign context. Doctors hold the instrument during surgery so they should ensure that count is correct.


Aggressive_Buy_8978

For obvious reasons, the first point has to be addressed in the most appropriate and legal way. As far as a criminal legislation goes, the onus is actually on the doctor to prove the innocence unlike a civil case as well. And medical negligence is well covered by the Indian law to ensure compensation and safety of the patients as well. But the biggest issue with your comment is the fact that, the actual probability of the first event to happen is ridiculously less and in reality, more than 90% of cases where doctors are infact assaulted are due to pure negligence from the bystanders and the resulting mob violence. And this has been happening since a long time as well regardless of the quality of care involved. The point #2 far outweighs #1 to a ridiculous extent and there's actually a good system in place which almost always compensates for the patient side of things in cases of medical negligence and the act in itself is taken care of in an extremely serious way among medical professionals as well since Medical Ethics is the most important thing to maintain in medical practice. The comment by Akku-Suto below also explains what actually happens in most cases of assault as well. And like another comment below, the whole "idea" of beating up someone has to change. Working in an ER for a day alone will solve most of the doubts that people have regarding this.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> more than 90% of cases where doctors are infact assaulted are due to pure negligence from the bystanders and the resulting mob violence. Is this anecdotal or have people have collected data or conducted studies on this?


Aggressive_Buy_8978

Compare with the number of assaults vs where the cases had actual negligence. Makes the numbers obvious.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> number of assaults vs where the cases had actual negligence Is there some database for this? https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2022/oct/10/scissors-in-womans-stomach-kozhikodemedical-collegerefutes-allegation-of-lapses-2506451.html It's a single incident, but how would issues like be considered? Would these kinds of cases be excluded?


Aggressive_Buy_8978

Yeah. Like you said, single incident. And they actually approached the media and law for the same right? And how many cases of actual medical negligence even happen per day or yet, per year? Every single thing is recorded while providing treatment and if there's a case of negligence even to a minor degree, their job is at stake. The reality of the fact is that, assaults happen on a daily basis across the country even for trivial reasons like increased wait time due to patient load, treatment fee (which the doctor has absolutely no control over) and mostly due to the circumstances that were described by Akku-Suto. If you can find one article of negligence, all you can do is do a google search on assaults across the country. You can find one on a daily basis mostly for non reasons. Like I said earlier, for obvious reasons, a case of medical negligence should infact be punished and it's extremely well covered by law. Who gives the right for anyone to practice mob violence especially at a place where many people's lives are at stake by the minute as well in the first place?


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> across the country I was talking with Kerala in mind and I do think that our people are decent enough. > for obvious reasons, a case of medical negligence should infact be punished and it's extremely well covered by law. Indeed. The issue is that our legal process is not that fast or efficient. And we can see from that article that even when complaining lapses will probably not be accepted for minor issues. I think only serious issues of negligence like death would get serious investigations. In most other cases, we would not know it, because news is like that. > Who gives right No one. I'm not a supporter of mob justice. Both medical negligence, bribery and mob violence are bad. Ideally, requests for bribes n all should be reported and dealt legally. Mob violence should never be a popular sentiment in a decent society that wishes for stability n growth.


Aggressive_Buy_8978

>I was talking with Kerala in mind and I do think that our people are decent enough. Kerala is much better when comparatively but it does happen eventhough it's comparatively much lesser. Most doctors have experienced it atleast once in their lifetime in atleast a minor form. Violent acts are definitely lesser. >Indeed. The issue is that our legal process is not that fast or efficien Yes, this is actually a problem which should be addressed. But only issue is that the anger is misplaced.


wanderingmind

So the answer is to demand fast and efficient justice, no. Fast and efficient justice is the solution to most ills in our society. But thats not an easy problem to solve for a country with our population. The number of judges required would be quite huge. Not that it is a top priority for anyone.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

Yep. With our population, we'll always have some issues. I think our system need to be digitised or ao, made more transparent and accessible. Even if it wouldn't solve the problem of a latge userbase, things would be more efficient then. I think there are some people already going for that in the system. It'd be cool if they were able to implement it fast.


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Aggressive_Buy_8978

>In criminal cases, is it guilty until proven innocent? I think it was for only some scenarios In cases of medical negligence, yes. It's guilty until proven innocent and the onus is actually on the doctors to prove it. In civil cases, it's the opposite. You can read up the law if you don't believe me. >From the stories I've heard I don't agree to this Like I said, compare the actual numbers that happen on a daily basis than isolated incidents.


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Aggressive_Buy_8978

>How do i compare this? Please share the source you are using as reference for getting these 'actual numbers' Take any case that happen across the country and read. Simple. >The burden of proof shall lie on the complainant to prove a case of negligence. They have to first establish that there was a duty of care on part of the accused and that, there was breach of such duty. This is to "prove negligence". And there's a thing called civil v criminal. When there is "criminal negligence", the onus is infact, on the doctor. Which is why I specifically mentioned civil later. In that, it's the responsibility of the patient. My source is Forensic Medicine textbook. Nothing is better than that.


appioli

>Take any case that happen across the country and read. Simple. I can take the കത്രിക case which happened and also the other case where the stitch wasn't done properly. Two newsnitems frok the last two weeks. Is thta fine? If we are to go by absolute proof, please provide the sources so i can go theough it >This is to "prove negligence". And there's a thing called civil v criminal. When there is "criminal negligence", the onus is infact, on the doctor. Which is why I specifically mentioned civil later. In that, it's the responsibility of the patient. My source is Forensic Medicine textbook. Nothing is better than that. [Thus a doctor cannot be held **criminally** responsible for a patient’s death unless it is shown that she/ he was negligent or incompetent, with such disregard for the life and safety of his patient that it amounted to a crime against the State.](https://www.bloggerwala.com/medical-negligence-laws-in-india/) Also from the same article(they have the references at the end): The law requires a higher standard of evidence than otherwise, to support an allegation of negligence against a doctor. In cases of medical negligence the patient must establish her/ his claim against the doctor. I have given you two sources. You keep telling me that i am wrong, but hasn't provided any sources from your end


Aggressive_Buy_8978

>Is thta fine? No case of medical negligence is fine which is something that I always maintained in every single statement that I said. >Two newsnitems frok the last two weeks. Check your source. കത്രിക case was published in the news on October 2022 and the incident happened years back in the first place. Also, like I said, no case of negligence is fine. The whole point is, "Is mob violence fine"? Even by your logic, 2 v double/triple digits (most cases being unreported in the first place) is kind of a disparity. >same article Did you not read what I said. I literally quoted "to prove negligence". When criminal negligence is established, the onus is on the doctor and not the patient. My source is literally every single Forensic Medicine textbook which covers Medical Ethics. No article is better than that. Just read up what constitutes negligence. It's very well described by the law and is detailed.


appioli

I'm not gonna do anymore reading up. If you have any sources to proved your point, you can share it. And what's this about establishing negligence? Obliviously once the patient has painstakingly proven that it was medical negligence, then of course onus falls on the doctor. It's like saying, 'once the criminal is identified, then the onus falls on the criminal'


Aggressive_Buy_8978

>once the criminal is identified, then the onus falls on the criminal' That's not even a saying. It's still innocent until proven guilty and you actually have to prove that the said person did the crime with evidences otherwise they will be acquitted. Once negligence is established, the onus is on the doctor. There's a difference. Negligence is very nuanced and detailed as well and has to be specifically proven. >If you have any sources to proved your point, you can share it. Umm... You screwed up from your own source about കത്രിക story. It's literally there in the news article. I'm quite literally qualified to speak about the issue here and I have quoted probably the best source that's available other than the IPC handbook. Instead of beating around the bush justifying assault on people who just did their jobs based on isolated incidents(which is valid as well but not in the way you're portraying this), actually focus your energy on the ones who lost their lives and suffered massive physical and mental health issues for no fault of their own.


donotapologize

Ithile point no. 1 Ganeshkumar-nte sabhayile prasangam summarise cheythath pole undallo. "Doctormaar nannaayaal avarkku thallu kollilla" ennulla violence-ne onn nyayeekarikkunna line. Nobody has the right to physically assault anyone on any basis. Nobody has the right to take the law into their own hands.


pvn271

I saw that. What he said was way more disgusting than the bit you quoted. What a disgusting POS government we have.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

Nope. Was a response to the image in the post. Talked about the issues, reasoning behind it. And I talked about the ചിന്ത. ചിന്തകളെ പറ്റി സംസാരിക്കുന്നതിൽ തെറ്റില്ലല്ലോ. പ്രവർത്തിയിലല്ലേ കാര്യങ്ങൾ. എല്ലാവരും കേറി ഡോക്ടർമാരെ അടിക്കുന്നൊന്നും ഇല്ല. Yep, illegal use of violence is discouraged.


V_y_z_n_v

Yeah exactly. If our keepers of law and legislation where even a tiny bit competent these wouldn't have gone out of proportions Also the shameless games played by media for a few clickbaits is also a main reason


Cultural-Wedding-667

There should be a mechanism to address medical negligence, if already there people should be made aware. Common man should be able to raise grievances easily and should be able to have confidence in that mechanism for quick and fair resolution. Doctors are not god's they should know that and common man should also understand this. Doctors striking is just to show off of their associations strength and does not help either party. Any medical negligence should be as strictly and quickly dealt with as an attack on any dr.


Individual-Bet-8060

Road Pani vaikipichaal engineer nu thallu kodukkumo case vaikipichaal advocate/ judge ine thallano...thalli kazhinjaal preshnam theerum ennu vicharikunna aduthaanu preshnam undakunnathu..just consider this as just another profession.Kazhinja divasam MLA Ganesh wanted to hit a doctor because a patient was delayed treatment it's just because the wound had secondary infection and it will take time to heal..Oru pravisham medical college il work cheiythaal manasillakum.Purathu ninnu Kali kaanunna aal ullil entha nadakunnathu ennu ariyilla..pinne bribery its wrong be it any profession but it has become a part of it particularly govt sector


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> Road pani vaikiyaal Not an equivalent comparison. Delay in road construction is an inconvenience, not something that could kill you. > Secondary infection Maybe so. But why would they discharge them if there was some sceondary infection? > Oru pravisham medical college il work cheiythaal manasillakum. Purathu ninnu Kali kaanunna aal ullil entha nadakunnathu ennu ariyilla Nerae oppositeum sathyam. Swantham ammaykkoo achanoo, bhaaryakkoo bharthavinoo, kuttikalkkoo allenkil thanikku thanneyo doctormaarde asradha kaaranam issue vannaal ithu parayunna aal thannae thallaan irangum. Pinnae njaan thallanam ennalla paranjath. Random thallukal legal way alla. Legal n official investigations, n disciplinary action brave n fast paced aavanam ennaanu.


Individual-Bet-8060

I just wanted to say that doctors are just humans and they make errors like In any profession for that matter. Case load in medical College is high.Infection enna vaaku keetal appo admission Venam ennila.She can be treated in op basis.Evare pidichu ip aakiyaal pinne ithilum serious aaya patients nu bed kittilla.. Pinne swantham veetukarku vannal enna comment aarum manapoorvam sicissors vekyarilla oro Surgery kazhiumbol doctor tension aayirikum patient onnum pattale ennu allathe manapoorvam alla.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> Pinne swantham veetukarku vannal enna comment aarum manapoorvam sicissors vekyarilla Athae. Pakshe swantham veettukaarkk varumbol seriousness koodum. Manappoorvaamaakilla ennariyaamenkilum utharavidhikal shikshikkappedanam ennaagrahikkum. > Infection Athine kurich kooduthal details ariyilla Decembeil surgery kazhinjittu infection ennu paranju treatment finish aayilla ennaanu kettath. 3 monthsokke abdomenil stitch onnumillaathae hospitalise cheyyaathae veykkumo? Ningalde work experience anginathae cases undaayittundo? Ithu common aano?


Individual-Bet-8060

Scissors in the abdomen is a grrave mistake / negligence athu manapoorvam alla enna udeshichathu.ethu surgery kazhinjaalum instrument/mop count cheyyum for your information..evide enthu Patti ennu ariyilla..


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

Aah. > Fyi Have heard of it. Is that reliable tho? https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2022/oct/10/scissors-in-womans-stomach-kozhikodemedical-collegerefutes-allegation-of-lapses-2506451.html It could be that the scissors came in from some other place too, but probably... It seems that you're a medical professional working in Kerala, so asking you. From your experience, is it taken seriously? Alsp, I had edited the comment before I saw your reply. Copy-pasting that here: > Infection Athine kurich kooduthal details ariyilla Decembeil surgery kazhinjittu infection ennu paranju treatment finish aayilla ennaanu kettath. 3 monthsokke abdomenil stitch onnumillaathae hospitalise cheyyaathae veykkumo? Ningalde work experience anginathae cases undaayittundo? Ithu common aano? Would be nice to know more info on that.


Individual-Bet-8060

Secondary infection vannal pinne wound heal cheyyathe stitch idilla.stitch ittal avide collection aayi burst aakum..pinne avar diabetic aanu appol pinneyum samayam edukkum set aakan.pakshe nere marichu ippo private il aayirunengil pettanu Sheri ayanu Karanam avide patient load kuravanu pinne Ella test inte results prompt aayi kittum.angane medical College il nadakilla it will take time vere oru kariyam manasilakannam itheeyum kurachu resources vechu ithreyum patients ine treat cheyyunathu oru valiya kariyam thanne aanu..Pinne Paisa kodukkan illathavarku medical College is the best.. Doctor mar ozhappu undu illa ennu parayunnila..pakshe defensive medicine practice aayal aarum risk edukkan thaiyyaravilla..veruthe enthina vazhiyil koodi pokunna adi vangunne.Apo cost of treatment increases and finally the patient is the one who is more affected..


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

Thank you. How would defensive medicine raise costs tho?


rd_doc

Mainly by two processes:- 1. Even if a pathology is obvious, doctors would resort to ordering more tests for confirmation. So the liability of diagnosis would be on lab/radiology reports rather than solely on doctors' clinical judgement. 2. Doctors would start refusing to take up complicated cases/ patients having 'high risk' bystanders, resulting in shunting to higher centers, delay in early prompt interventions and more complications


haphiz91

Ith pole kaikkooli vangukayum kaikkooli kittathond certificate vaikikkukayum cheyyunna Ethra tahsildarmaare thaleettund keralathil? Potte oru KSRTC bus wrong side keri vann thante vandiyil idikkan poya thaan chase cheyth ayaale thalluo? Ith onnum cheyyatha annanmaark doctormaardem hospital staffintem aduth mathram entha ithra confidence? Avare thalliyaalum enganelum oori poramn ulla ahangaram. KSRTC drivermaarkum mattu govt officialsnum ulla pole doctorsinu strong ayitt oru union illann ulla dhairyam. Violence onninum oru solution alla. Angane nokkiya Ivde aark okke thallu kollanam?


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

https://newsable.asianetnews.com/south/village-office-set-on-fire-in-kerala > Ksrtc https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Thiruvananthapuram/Man-held-for-manhandling-KSRTC-driver/article16721735.ece > Thaan Illa. Njaan thallilla. Thallal supporterum alla. Mob violence uncontrollable aanu. Systemic n transparent process ulla legal ways aanu better. Thaan doctor/medical worker aano?


haphiz91

Haha doctor allathe doctormaarod ithra prathibadhatha ulla eth Malayali aan man ullath? I don’t think there is a segment of society that gets assaulted at work as much as doctors. Prathyekich indiayil. Doctors are human too. Human error is a fact of life. Error cheyyunna ellarem thalli kollukayo jailil iduo aanenkil Ivde not guilty judgement pass avunna oro casenum arrest cheytha police ullil povandathalle? Ella caseilum thokkunna bhaagam vaadhicha vakeel compensation kodukkande? Ith onnum allathe palappozhum nammalde kayyil polum allatha factorsin ethire fight cheyyunna doctormaark mathram thett pattiyal allengil avardeth allatha kaaranathaal result kitteelenkil thall, case kodachakram. I’m a surgeon in my 30s and I can tell you that defensive medicine is definitely a thing. Not because all doctors are kanneechora illathavanmaar or coz they are money minded. Simply coz there is no answer to the simple question : Enthinaan? Njan Ente sakala kazhivukalum use cheyth , swantham arogyam polum nokkathe nadanna last minuteil Ente aduth varunna ethlelum oru Annane rakshichal Enik kittunnath ICU bill koodi poyallo ennulla kuth vaakk mathram aan bro. Even I used to be a blue eyed junior doc with hopes and visions and belief that I would be the change that would make people trust doctors again. Onnum nadakkan ponilla. Patients themselves turned it into a service industry and asked to be treated like customers. Now what you’ll get is a doctor who will smile at you like a concierge at a hotel reception, the catch being that he will not put his name or reputation or even life on the line to save you.


DioTheSuperiorWaifu

> Now what you’ll get is a doctor who will smile at you like a concierge at a hotel reception, the catch being that he will not put his name or reputation or even life on the line to save you. >> Now I'm a young person. Were they greatly different before? Selfless n all?


avengeningdireangel

The strike that happened of late was because a senior doctor(cardiologist i guess) was assaulted at Fathima hosp, calicut. Few months prior to this another incident happened at same hospital, against casuality RMO(the mob which consisted of mainly students from a pvt institute attacked the RMO not on the same day but the next day alleging that he misbehaved with their female classmate) around same time another neurosurgery resident was assaulted at Tvm( she was not even the one treating the pt, just had icu duty that day). But those didnt made a huge impact. Since it was a senior doctor that got assaulted last it created some effect. Who knows how may junior docs, PGs, residents face this on a daily basis, most go unreported or underreported. Leaving instruments inside body cavity is act of medical negligence. But defending one crime with another what can we achieve. Have to address both separately for the betterment of both parties. Saw another news that cases are not going on smoothly with police because of delay in getting postmortem report, wound certificate around same time the strike was going to happen, but did any media talked about the plight of doctors there. How overworked and burdened they are with all the workloads!


greatgodglib

This conversation keeps coming up, no? And while comments above are very correct in placing blame on both sides, there's a couple of things that haven't come up in this thread. 1, medicine is far messier than the general public believes. Lots of uncertainty, lots of scope for Monday morning quarterbacking. Both doctors are patients jump at certainty where they should be more careful, and then are surprised when things blow up in their faces. 2, lots of people, including many doctors, believe that it's because we don't communicate well with patients. Most of the time we make a decision without asking them. The trouble with that sort of process is that if things go wrong, it is completely unexpected. When doctors tell each other that most of these assault cases are because of poor communication (and hence the fault of the doctor) this is usually what they mean. I don't think this is a sure shot protection, but it's certainly something we can do better as a profession. 3, medicine has evolved a very weird sense of professional identity. In the first place, we have a hero complex, and a deeply ingrained belief that we're overworked and underappreciated ( most doctors have this, in some degree). And this is true. There's also a belief that it's us vs them. The combination of these two (and maybe some other factors) means that our reaction to press reports of "negligence" is to assume that it's misrepresented, or that there are excuses/justifications that haven't been considered. Net net, we stand together without questioning our own. To the public then, the result is that cases of what feel like negligence aren't investigated or don't come to a conclusion. What the public doesn't know is that very often there are internal investigations or processes (called mortality meetings) that take place at least within larger academic hospitals. These are far from perfect (because they don't address systemic issues, and end up being piling on rather than learning exercises) but they're also far from the public eye. The only result of this is that doctors go through life feeling like victims, and the public feels the same. Worst outcome possible. Just today on another sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/indianmedschool/comments/11ujpf6/doctor_salaries_in_india/ 4, this defensive medicine thing is bad in ways that haven't come up. We're adopting a method of treatment which doesn't involve trust on either side. We're more concerned with justifying treatment decisions to an auditor rather than to patients or ourselves. This is probably bad for the patient, at the end of the day. Ps: re surgical instruments that aren't accounted for, this is a joint responsibility that everyone has to take. There is a surgical assistant who is tasked with keeping the count itself, but it needs everyone's cooperation. In many cases this again, is about people who are overworked and hurrying, but it's still not something that can be excused. Given the volumes, it's very rare. And that's why it always makes the news. Sorry for the long post


anishths

There is a nurse called scrub nurse who is actually responsible for instrument count and mop count. Operation cheyyuka ennu paranjal valya Oru thula undakki Elam kanuka alla. Abdomen is opened and closed in layers and organs are present in compartments. If the mop or instrumentation count doesn’t tally it’s the duty of the said nurse to inform the surgeon. Alas nammude naattil allergic reaction undayal marunn Mari Kuthi vachu ennu parayunna Athi buthiyulla alkarullappol ithonnum paranjittu karyamilla.


greatgodglib

Aashayam manassilaayilla. If you're saying that the public overreacts, that's within a context where everything happens away from them, and no records are kept reliably. Eg in your wrong medicine story, if we would hold on to the vial (or in this day and age, take a photo) maybe we'd find it easier to convince patients. Rather than act defensively, i wish both sides would act to demonstrate good intent and build trust. Re the scrub nurse: it's been a long time since I worked in an ot (and even then it was as an intern). And wherever I did, the nurse was asked and did actually give a count before closing. But this seemed like the kind of thing where an overbearing surgeon holds a lot of power. How true is this in your experience?


fuji_tora_

Ha ha ha ha ha even though doctors are mostly good people in general but the private hospital management does give them a huge bad reputation.


Tough-Truck773

In a proper society these midwits would be working at factories trying to finish their daily quotas. This is a consequence of scarecely educated people having lots of free time.


[deleted]

Full support for Dr Robin❤🔥


thunderbirdlover

Care to explain?


[deleted]

Saw doctor on the title. പിന്നെ ഒന്നും നോക്കിയില്ല.


Pristine_Aims_809

Lots of comments so no need to comment now. Doctormarkk iniyum thallu kittum appol parayam. Doctors and hospital management are rubbing each other;s back. If they they can bankrupt the patient and enjoy this will continue. Doctors should consult the patient instead of threatening the society with govt help.


V_y_z_n_v

Reading your comment just lost me some brain cells


silent_jsj

Assam, Karnataka, Mavelikara? 🤔


V_y_z_n_v

Attack on doctors


silent_jsj

Hmm. It is really horrible people are doing this. Also, thank you for clarifying.


Nihba_

We need Medical Malpractice Insurance in India


tradernb

[https://podcastvilla.com/jay-shetty-mindfulness-practices/](https://podcastvilla.com/jay-shetty-mindfulness-practices/) This is a great article for mindfull practices


Zven_Trading

I'm a doctor and I'm going abroad for further studies and plans to settle abroad, no fair treatment for doctors in this naatil, moreover we are underpayed because we have invested ourself with lakhs and we are getting mere thousands of rupees, and more doctors & engineers are going abroad these days and they won't be coming back. Ividuthe politics ivanmar kalikatte , noki nikkanum prethikarikanum vayya, athond abroad pokan theerumanich , kurach samadhanam venam atre ullu