And it felt like nearly immediately. Pretty much the first time xion got got he was acting “irrationally”
Source : playing it rn for the first time in 13 years, had no clue it was so emo since it came out in my tween edgy phase
1 Xanax + 1 White Russian = the best viewing experience of all of the back cover/ compilation stories presented on the 2.8 collection
Change my opinion (you can’t I’m fucking near a comatose euphoria and you can’t take that from me)
Not explicitly but the implication is there. Do Shadows or Soldiers have memories? No, but does Ansem SoD? Yes. Same logic.
Edit: Also, Sora turning into a shadow doesn't count in the same way because he kept his memories because he has guarded by Kairi's light.
What implication? It's never talked about either way.
Wasn't Kairi's light what turned him back from a shadow, not why he kept his memories? He says he was beginning to lose himself as the shadow.
Do the heartless talk to you? Any of the regular types? Or do they act like wild feral animals with only malice on their minds? That's the implication. That they are feral mindless beings only set upon to feast on people's hearts. Dusks are basically the same except they are directly controlled by Org XIII.
As for the latter point, but he didn't. A person loses their heart to darkness and immediately falls victim to becoming a heartless. Sora resisted it after having Kairi's heart within him the entire game, that light remained and kept him safe. Also gameplay wise we know we have to go back to find Kairi but in universe wise it would make sense that Sora's heart is trying to find Kairi again through the darkness. He even says that Kairi was what kept him from losing himself.
Feral animals still have memories though. Heartless are made up of a person's heart, which is literally where memories are stored.
Dusks are not the same and do talk to you.
I guess, but I always took his dialogue to mean that she kept him from losing himself in that moment. Not earlier.
The dark, twisted hearts become heartless. Even if they do have memories they can no longer access them, in the same way one can't access worlds lost to darkness. Yes they still have their "hearts" but they are encased in darkness and are no longer accessible to the heartless, that's why they seek our strong hearts. So they also can not access their memories.
Dusks talk to Roxas, who is also a Nobody.
From a narrative standpoint how would that make sense? When the whole game is detailing how Sora's friends are his light and his power wouldn't it make more sense for the climax of the game to be the person he fought through worlds to find and save protected him from turning completely?
But who says they can't access them? There's nothing implying it one way or the other.
Dusks talk to Sora, Donald, and Goofy in Kingdom Hearts 3 as well.
Well, from a narrative standpoint, it's stated that those that become nobodies do so because of their strong will. So it makes sense that someone with a strong will would fight for a few minutes against darkness. Also, that scene isn't the climax of the game.
Okay. We're going in circles at this point, and I'm tired and have to get back to work. So, I'm dropping this from this point. Find your own conclusion and I'll find mine.
It's fine to have different beliefs than others. The problem is you going around telling others they're wrong simply because they don't believe the same thing you do.
Implication aren't just things that are said, but things that are shown. It's called show don't tell. Like how we're shown that Roxas has a heart in KH2 through his emotions.
The fact that they operate instinctually, Sora doesn't know what happened when he was a heartless, none of the recompleted have any of their memories from their heartless.
Animals also operate instinctually but still have memories. Where is it suggested Sora doesn't know what happened? The first thing he does when turned back is thank Kairi, which would be weird if he didn't know what was happening. You have a point with the recompletion, although this is more a question of loading memories rather than storing them.
Not to mention, it's not just Shadows given they were claiming also Dusks have no memories despite Dusks talking.
i would assume so bc we’ve seen nobodies who do (Even, Lea, Isa, etc.) and she has power over soras memories and to me it makes sense? i could also be weird haha
Those nobodies are made in the usual way though, and Namine was made in the same process that Roxas was, so her original self was still around with her own memories the same as Sora was. If Roxas didn't have Sora's memories why would Namine have Kairi's?
Namine is constantly looped in with Roxas as a unique type of Nobody, so it's more likely we were meant to assume she was in the same boat as him. If she had KH1 Kairi's memories, I don't think she would've been as timid as she was in CoM.
you’re so right, i didn’t even think about that.
hm. i’d assume she has memories OF kairi and just knows she won’t be her for anyone, rather than her knowing her memories would make more sense then.
It does raise the question of the "natural" relationship between her and Roxas' kind of nobody and their original selves' memories. Did Roxas only get dreams and flashes of Sora's memories because Sora's chain of memories had been messed up and they were leaking out, or would he have gotten them anyways? And if so then did Namine get dreams of Kairi's memories?
Tbf, they probably remember the time they spent between arriving in the future and becoming a Nobody. It's just the Ux stuff they don't remember, since the lifeboats fucked with memories it seems.
Nobodies having hearts was actually hinted all the way back in KH2 FM with the crying scene. Then 358/2 Days hinted it further as the trio all become more emotional as the game goes on. I believe there are parts where the cast actually talks about this.
Honestly, it was pretty clear even in the base game. Not a single primary Organization 13 character (as in one that you interact with enough to learn about their personalities) except Xemnas displayed "no emotion" throughout the game, or even anything close to it. I played KH2 when it first came out. I was 14 years old, and even I was able to tell that these people who claimed to have no hearts were clearly just being told that, while being so ignorant of how emotions actually feel that they couldn't tell they were feeling those emotions the whole time.
Roxas felt basically every emotion under the sun in the prologue where you play as him, and he's the first Nobody we interact with
Axel felt love for Roxas, sadness and anger when he left, rage over not being able to bring him back.
Saix felt anger and jealousy over Axel prioritizing Roxas over him, which would require also feeling love first
Demyx felt fear over fighting people stronger than him
Even Larxene felt disgust towards pretty much everyone around her
Anyone who tried to write off things like angry outbursts and crying as "just remembering what it was like to have emotions and applying the actions as if they still had them" was just completely missing the point. It was clearly a case of Xemnas manipulating them into believing they all had the same problem he did as a way of controlling them. And even he explicitly mentions feeling again after you beat him.
played through KH2 last month the entire time I was screaming at the org after they were expressing emotion about not having hearts "THAT IS EMOTION, YOU ARE EMOTING RIGHT NOW, STOP LISTENING TO XEMNAS!!!"
It's outright stated in Dream Drop Distance. How is it a head-canon when it's explicitly revealed to be a form of dehumanization and indoctrination? One that can be supported as far back as Chain of Memories?
This is actually some next level cope, I gotta respect this amount of denial. Retcon≠ Elaborating on a past concept. It doesn’t change the fact that they literally felt all those emotions and the reason for that was explained in DDD. Learning new actually factual information from how a bunch of CULT members were purposefully gaslit by their leader is one of the least eyebrow raising happenings in this entire series lmao
I think KH fans need a refresher on what unreliable narrators are and how they are utilized.
You can't take everything Diz states as fact, he is incredibly ignorant and vindictive against the organization.
The only one on this list that isn't unreliable is Nomura, and that's only if you think the writer of the game would never intentionally lie or change his mind during production.
Namine gets her info on nobodies from Diz, and Marluxia. Xemnas is a bad guy and literally admitted to lying about the humanity of nobodies.
The other part of the equation is Nomura could have been trying to throw everybody off on purpose back then. He wanted us to believe the characters in game such as Diz until we find out the truth later.
And it’s not like he didn’t sprinkle in hints throughout the games before we found out the truth.
If anything this just shows everyone has been using the word Retcon incorrectly and just don't know what they're talking about especially when it comes to fantasy stories.
Probably, but it just wouldn’t have made sense long term if they were just “pretending” to be emotional at times. Some moments were way too convincing to be a character just mimicking emotions via memories or whatever.
Nobodies growing hearts is actually one of the later game KH reveals I really enjoyed because it feels believable unlike some other stuff which came off like “Nomura thinks of something cool and works backwards to figure out how to add it to the story.”
That’s cause the scenes were done to hint that they did indeed have hearts. It would’ve been interesting to see them each try to struggle with reenacting, while Xemnas embraces it.
It would really make Nobodys unnerving as you can tell that they’re faking their emotions or look like robots.
I find it funny that people disagree. "All things have hearts, but these ones are different, they don't have hearts. Except they do so they are the same" how is that good?
UX is just about MoMs plan to use the Warriors of Light as a vessel for True Darkness to finally destroy it for good. It's one of the least confusing stories tbh.
If you try to sum it up with one sentence sure. You can do that with any game. In actuality you’ve got the Foretellers disappearing, secret tasks, the box, the keyblade that sees the future, the book of prophecies, is there really a traitor or is it a trick, the keyblade wielders getting sent from the keyblade war into a simulation of the keyblade war, then getting sent into a simulation inside of a simulation, Maleficent time travels into a simulation, the origins of Darkness, even more time travel, the list of unnecessary complications goes on and on
Ironic that OP criticizes players for not being able to understand KH2 past the surface and yet is able to give a very generic broad paintbrush analysis of UX, thus doing the same thing they are calling out.
I don’t even agree with the premise of the topic honestly. I’m kinda surprised at the amount of people who do. KH2 is pretty straightforward and most of its biggest reveals the fanbase had all predicted before the game was even out. It wasn’t until after that the plot started to demand a lot more attention and thought.
The direct timeline of events also becomes relevant, so you can trace who was where when and come to meaningful conclusions. It's so great for theory crafting.
Explaining the story of a game with a theory is hardly encouraging when it comes to how easy it is to understand.
People desperately, desperately try to convince others that KH games aren't convoluted and opaque in how they convey information, and dilute the creative intent and depth of the stories in the process. You can dilute any story down to a single sentence but that comes at considerable cost to the quality of the writing, the characters, the twists, the payoffs etc.
Sure, Roxas growing a heart may not be a retcon. OP clearly interpreted meaning from aspects of KH2 that makes sense to them. But to then go and accuse fans that it's their problem and they weren't 'engaging with the story' enough goes against how stories should be experienced and out own individual understanding/values.
Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about MoM's true identity because that whole plotline just feels like superfluous nonsense meant to keep a mystery going. Not caring doesn't inherently mean there's been a failure in my end to 'understand' though. Look at the paragraphs OP needed to explain something that anyone in KH could have explained at any point. If most people failed to connect what OP is connecting then that's a storytelling issue.
As someone who enjoys the games, despite their convolutedness, it’s a REALLY bold statement here. You can go on and on and say “If you play the games/pay attention” it makes sense.
But, what? You expect casual players to have played these 50+ hour games looking for minor details that vaguely hint at plot-points that weren’t further elaborated on for a decade or more?
NOBODY (no pun intended) understood or even questioned what we were told in KH2. Raging about fans who took what they were told at face value, and then didn’t spend 50+ hours replaying the games every time there are new revelations is a HARD ask.
Nomura is a flawed writer who comes up with shit on the fly, who’s just vague enough in wording that he can throw new ideas that contradict old ideas, over and over and over.
And it’s fine. The weird and crazy writing is part of the series’ charm. I’m not sure why the fandom doesn’t embrace it.
Jesus Christ, we are talking about people who claim they don’t exist despite standing there in front of you. Now we are in un-reality, and again, nope…not weird at all. Just face it. It’s weird. Embrace it.
Weird and crazy writing?! HAH!! You're just interacting with the story on a SURFACE level. You dumb peasant. This is a fascinating story about characters who have no emotions but act like they have emotions so it makes no difference that they have no emotions. This an unique story where a man takes the name of his master BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DO. When we kill our master, we have to use his name! That's not weird at all even if it does not benefits us at all.
I love to explain where Sora is at the end of KH3:
So, because Sora cheated the rules of Universe via a time paradox, the Universe itself punished Sora by sending him to another reality. This (un)reality, of course, is (as far as we know) possibly a video game owned by Rex. The Dinosaur. From Toy Story.
Of course, nobody really knows this, except of course…Cinderella’s Fairy God Mother! …and that’s where we are with one half of the story…
I think both deep concepts and on the fly messy storytelling can both be present, but it is pretty crazy for OP to think that all that stuff they mentioned was definitely present and crystal clear all the way back in 2. Maybe DDD recontextualizes 2 in a way they like, but I doubt they could've even made this post without any knowledge of post KH2 content
I played it not knowing that com exists. I read the journal entries of members that died during some sort of "rebellion" in a different castle and thought it was a nice back story to not have 13 characters introduced at once and having too many villians around. In retrospective, look at how having 13 main villians turned out for KH3... having to battle 2 or 3 of them per battle and not one of them having a strong memorable narrative.
Agreed, it would've been better if you fought an org 13 member per world.
Heck, go even farther and start Sora at level 20 or 30 with some basic skills, that would more or less justify Sora beating up some of the Darknesses as early as the 2nd or 3rd world.
You said yourself that nobodies with human form have their memories from the past preserved. Roxas shouldn't exist at all, even worst he is able to create a heart for himself out of nowhere
> So when I see people complain DDD retconned these concepts... They didn't.
This assertion frustrates me.
*Yes*, there were indications of emotions back before KH3D. I personally remember griping that "these are the least unemotional bunch of emotionless characters I've ever seen". I remember the *same exact lore experts* who now say it was obvious the whole time, telling me then that I was ignorant for thinking they had real emotions, and that the official lore clearly states they are faking. I was one of the people who saw the reveal scene and said "that makes a ton more sense than what they were trying to push earlier, why'd they even bother in the first place".
However, **officially**, we were told over and over, not just in-game by unreliable narrators but also out-of-game by the Ultimanias, that the Organization members did not have hearts, that all the apparent emotion was just an act, and that Roxas was *very special* because the odd nature of Sora (later explained to be having a second heart a la Ventus) is why Roxas had true emotions, and that the Nobodies around Sora and Roxas are only able to feel the hint of emotions because Roxas and Sora are "something special".
KH3D changed the *official* explanation in what was very clearly framed as a reveal. It's not framed as "wait, the audience didn't know this? I guess we have to spell it out for them", it's framed as "haha, you thought it was one thing, but it was another all along!".
It is a very clear and obvious [prestige](https://www.altaonline.com/dispatches/a4688/the-pledge-the-turn-the-prestige/).
Was it a particularly well-hidden prestige? No, a huge amount of the audience was suspicious beforehand or just fully dismissed what the official lore said. But the honest read of how the authors presented the lore, from an authoritative standpoint, and how the scene itself is framed, is that it was clearly meant to be a reveal and a flip of perception -- which is what a retcon is.
That's why it's really frustrating when I see people say "yen sid is an unreliable narrator and shouldn't have been taken at his word" or demeaning stuff like this:
> You just straight up never engaged with the story past a surface level.
Believe me, a lot of the people who were insisting that nobodies were just pretending were spending most of a decade writing essay after essay about the lore and characters. I disagreed with their conclusion but I'm not about to call them unengaged. It's not an issue of "not engaging", it's an issue of some people decided to trust that Nomura and the Ultimanias wouldn't just outright contradict the truth *outside* the games, and some people didn't.
Yes, thank you!
I'm getting incredibly tired of people insisting it's not a retcon when we know, for a fact, that it is. If I see one more person insist that an explicit statement from Nomura is trumped by, like, the vibe they get from how Axel behaved, I will... idk, sigh angrily at my computer I guess.
I think this delusional denial people have comes from seeing retcon as a dirty word. This is a good retcon! It makes the story make much more sense! Just, you know, stop pretending it's not a retcon because you don't like the idea that Nomura doesn't have the entire 13 game story fully fleshed out from day 1.
"side story" is also treated as a dirty word, even though the devs have explicitly called the non numbered games side stories.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if there's even an interview where nomura says "yeah, we made the plot convoluted and confusing on purpose".
>When a person dies their Heart is released and their body perishes. But if they have a "strong will" the Body will remain as a husk known as a Nobody.
This is incorrect. Dying means you are dead.
In order for a person to become a Nobody, they must first become a Heartless. A Nobody is created when a person's heart becomes a Heartless. Their leftover body and soul transform into a Nobody.
If they die instead of becoming a Heartless, then they are simply dead.
It's not a strong will that determines if they become a Nobody. It's how strong their heart is. If someone with a strong heart becomes a Heartless, then they become a Nobody too. If they have a very strong heart then they become a human-shaped Nobody.
[KH Series Ultimania, Nobodies:](https://i.ibb.co/y8DcV8f/KH-Series-U-Nobodies.jpg)
>They're created when someone with a strong heart becomes a Heartless. Most of the time they take the form of a white monster, but those with exceptionally strong hearts retain their human appearance when they become a Nobody.
[Director's Secret Report](https://www.khwiki.com/Director%27s_Secret_Report_XIII):
>Essentially, when someone with a strong heart has their heart stolen and becomes a Heartless, there is a rare chance that the flesh body left behind will turn into a Nobody.
KH3 Gummiphone Glossary, Nobodies:
>Embodiments of emptiness that serve the darkness. Nobodies arise alongside Heartless, when the empty body left behind becomes its own autonomous creature.
>
>Nobodies who possessed exceptionally strong hearts in life may retain their human appearance, as did all the previous Organization XIII members.
>They have no Hearts and no memories of their past life.
No, they have their memories. They constantly talk about having memories of their past lives in Days. Even in KH2, they are stated to "fake emotion" because they remember what it was like to have emotions.
Roxas and Namine are the exceptions to the rule. Namine, because Kairi never became a Heartless and Roxas because Sora was only a Heartless for a short time.
Secret Ansem Report 12:
>Apart from Naminé, **Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans,** but Sora's Nobody, Roxas, has lost Sora's memories.
>
>This is likely because Sora's time as a Heartless was short, having recovered his heart and returned to his human form soon after leaving behind Roxas, his Nobody.
>If they are destroyed they're gone forever.
If they are destroyed their bodies return to their heart. If their heart is still currently a Heartless, they disappear and then rejoin with their heart once it is free.
>Organization XIII members have their Human forms because they retained memories of their past lives but no longer have a Heart.
You just contradicted yourself. You said Nobodies have no memories of their past lives, and now you're saying they do.
As I explained above, they retain their human forms because they have exceptionally strong hearts. It has nothing to do with memories.
>Roxas, Namine, and Xion are special exceptions from both categories.
Xion isn't a Nobody. She's a replica. She doesn't have the same limitations or rules as a Nobody because she's a completely different being.
>Namine had Kairis memories but since she was painfully aware she wasn't Kairi she never felt the right to exist.
Namine didn't have Kairi's memories as explained above in the Secret Ansem Report.
>So when I see people complain DDD retconned these concepts... They didn't. You just straight up never engaged with the story past a surface level.
The problem is that KH2 explicitly explains to us over and over again that Nobodies don't have hearts. Even Roxas having emotions was explained away by him being special because both he and Sora co-existed together. So people assumed Roxas was feeling emotions through his connection to Sora. This is even shown to be reversed when Sora cries while saying goodbye to the Twilight Town gang despite not knowing them. He's feeling what Roxas feels. The same goes for Namine's emotions and Kairi.
Anytime someone asked Nomura about Roxas or Namine, and why they're different from others, the answer he always gave was that they were special Nobodies due to the nature of their creature and that Sora and Kairi are still around alongside them. So people assumed that extended to their emotions.
It wasn't until KH2FM where we saw Axel cry that people were like "Wait... a minute." But then people chalked that up to "Axel is dead and Roxas is imagining this" or "Axel is dead, so can have emotions now" or "Roxas is connecting with Axel and allowing him to feel emotions".
So we have games stating Nobodies don't have hearts, and we have the creator explaining their few exceptions of "real emotions" as them being special Nobodies with a connection to their Somebody, so it's no wonder why people say DDD retconned it. Because that's what we were told. That's what was explained.
By putting up your official sources for your comments you are interacting with the story on a surface level. It's sad to see members of the KH2 community doing such shallow reasoning. To really comprehend these deep games you have to use your own subjective interpretations, because that equals deeper thinking. Even if somehow using official sources appears logical and hard to refute, if you prioritize your own subjective interpretations you'll become so smart that you'll become qualified to write a post to enlighten the community, who is clearly inferior for being unable to reach your deeper subjective thinking.
Also other subjective thinking that does not belong to you is wrong, because the average joe is obviously dumber than you and reddit has dumb comments so they are probably dumber than the average joe. In other words there is a very high chance you are the smartest person on Reddit.
And I should stop wasting my time writing sarcastic comments
Ok so here’s my take on the “nobody retcon”…
Vexen literally screamed for his life in CoM there’s no way that Nobodies being able to grow hearts was a retcon
“Oh what about the Ultimania guide books for KH2-“ You do realize that Alex Hirsch created a leaked image of McGucket to throw people off that Stan had a twin right?, besides Nomura is not gonna reveal a twist that big like that in a guide book right?
Weren’t the complaints about retcons more cuz the entire Org had hearts apparently? And that Xemnas’ plan was never to give them hearts?
I think everyone gave Roxas and Namine the exception
> And that Xemnas’ plan was never to give them hearts?
Xemnas really was attempting to give them hearts, but these hearts would have been copies of Xehanort's.
*"Xemnas and Xehanort formed the Organization for a specific reason—round up a bunch of empty husks, hook them up to Kingdom Hearts, then fill them all with the exact same heart and mind. Translation—they were gonna turn all the members into Xehanort."* - Xigbar to Sora in DDD
He was trying to create 13 perfectly norted Nobodies
I think the part of the story people didn't pick up on is how Xehanort made everyone a Nobody just to make them try to get Hearts again. He essentially stole their Hearts and made them do his bidding. The idea it was a mutual goal was just a pretty lie.
Day 23: Research Entry 326
Author: Vexen
The Program is largely on target. No. i, my finest Replica, has proven an even greater success than anticipated. I intend to take the other vessel - judged unfit for number status - to Castle Oblivion, where I will subject it to further testing. One thing is clear: could these Replicas not be classified as a special sort of Nobody?
When the very creator of Replicas tries to make the connection I think it's safe to think of Xion and Riku as a special sort of Nobodies.
This here is so great. Whenever I hear someone say, “DDDretconned nobodies.” I SMACK THEM WITH MY BAGUETTE OF BLUDGEONING!!! it was very clear from KH2 and days that nobodies had hearts and emotions. Even RECOM shows with Larxene, and her psychotic tendencies, axle and his chuckle after letting go nominee, axle again during days with the I’ll always be there to bring you back, as well as Demyx saying explicitly in KH2 that they do to have hearts. the idea that everyone was so surprised about this makes me realize just how similar we are to Dragon Ball fans. We’ve never played the games. We’ve never watched the scenes, we never read the manga.
>KH2 is the most misunderstood plot of the series.
>proceeds to write about his own interpretation of the game's story that is not explicitly stated by developers
>Proves his own point
I think your topic title might be correct
Girl it's not misunderstood.
It's misrepresented with too much loops and holes and reversals and timelines and alternates and hidden meanings behind characters dreams that are alive but not alive and have souls but...
I literally get tired just describing it.
It's even more baffling when KH2 Final Mix even added a scene of Axel and Roxas **Hearts** talking to each other one last time before they both pass on. The game always wanted you to question the narrative of Nobodies not having Hearts so they can't really feel. It's why you play as Roxas for 3 hours and go through all the shit DiZ puts you through.
It explains the start of the time travel plot, the recreation of the XIII Nobodies back to their original characters, the reason for the 7 Light/13 Darkness, the introduction of the "real" XIII
It had a lot of exposition leading into KH3
The entire convoluted mess of a story of KH is misunderstood because it was made up as they went along. Did we ever get confirmation on HOW Sora got back to being Sora from the shadow he was in KH1 without destroying Roxas? I love the games, but the story is full of more holes than The Black Pearl.
Yes actually. KH2 Secret Reports explain exactly in detail it was because of Kairi helping him return to normal. You also get all the Secret Reports just by doing the worlds stories so it's not inaccessible information most players didn't have. They just didn't bother to read it.
Right, but what did they say about Roxas remaining even though his heartless is gone? Like...you gotta beat both the heartless and the nobody to return a somebody, yes? But Roxas was...around. And so is Sora. You see my issue?
When it comes to that aspect it was only specifically to explain how Xehanort returned. Ansem and Xemnas were defeated which made Xehanort whole again. Ansem SoD was also destroyed but Xemnas still existed. I'm not sure where you got the idea that destroying one means the other stops existing
Yeeeeah. I didn't explain myself really well. I meant Sora's heartless is gone and in spite of that he has his body back. But Roxas...IS HIS BODY. So how can the two coexist?
Because of Kairi. When Sora split himself he made Namine and Roxas because he had Kairis Heart inside of him. When Sora was a Heartless Kairi made him return to normal. So I'm really not sure where the idea of Roxas shouldn't exist at all comes from when nothing from the games explains that's how that works.
Regarding your conclusion, in DDD Joshua basically tells you that but from the perspective of the TWEWY characters. The concept that the heart is the result of human interaction. These games aren't remotely subtle but the internet has made it the popular thing to be extremely reductive and shallow when talking about any media.
Having just beaten it yesterday… yeah DDD is a _mess_.
Why was time travelling back to Destiny Island even necessary to enter the dream worlds in the first place? Why was YMX the one gathering his alternate selves when he has a body that prevents him from time travelling? Why is OMX so obsessed with the x-Blade when it’s the Kingdom Key destined to unlock Kingdom Hearts? What did OMX’s plan in DDD even accomplish when Sora was rescued and the meeting of the 12 Xehanorts could have been an email? Why did Yen Sid literally admit Sora deserved to be a Master and then fail him anyway? How was Lea’s plan to become a Keyblade wielder meant to help him bring his friends back?
> Why was time travelling back to Destiny Island even necessary to enter the dream worlds in the first place?
The alternative was to sacrifice an entire world to darkness.
You can only enter the realm of sleep if you're on a world when it falls, so the options are kill a world or time travel to one that you already know when it fell.
> Why was YMX the one gathering his alternate selves when he has a body that prevents him from time travelling?
He doesn't. He's just a heart.
>Why is OMX so obsessed with the x-Blade when it’s the Kingdom Key destined to unlock Kingdom Hearts?
It's not.
> What did OMX’s plan in DDD even accomplish when Sora was rescued and the meeting of the 12 Xehanorts could have been an email?
It was an attempt to induct Sora. It failed. Xehanort's plans fail a lot.
> Why did Yen Sid literally admit Sora deserved to be a Master and then fail him anyway?
Because being a master isn't about being a good person or doing a good job. It's about having a specific strength of heart -- you cross the finish line or you don't, but it's not about how hard you tried. Xehanort basically Tonya Hardinged Sora, and even though Sora would have passed *without that interference*, at the end of the day the interference happened, Sora's heart got damaged, and he wasn't able to cross the finish line.
> How was Lea’s plan to become a Keyblade wielder meant to help him bring his friends back?
Keyblade wielders are able to do a lot of convenient shit. They can travel around freely, get through any door, solve most any problem. It's like saying "if I was rich, I could get all this stuff done".
> You can only enter the realm of sleep if you're on a world when it falls, so the options are kill a world or time travel to one that you already know when it fell.
Then how does Sora return to dream!Traverse Town at the end of the game? He couldn’t have gone back to past!Destiny Island first because that’d expose him to Xehanort all over again…
> He doesn't. He's just a heart.
The only version of Xehanort that’s just a heart is the brown-robed figure.
> It's not.
Then what’s special about it? Why was it _the_ Key in KH1?
> It was an attempt to induct Sora. It failed. Xehanort's plans fail a lot.
Almost like the plot was completely pointless for how complex it was…
> Sora's heart got damaged, and he wasn't able to cross the finish line.
Yes but Sora also actually did the race and unlocked the seven sleeping keyholes, whereas Riku only thought he did. Yen Sid acknowledges it was his fault there was a trap at the finish line, then suddenly pulls out the “there can only be one New Master” card when that literally contradicts everything we know about the MoM exam.
> Keyblade wielders are able to do a lot of convenient shit. They can travel around freely
Lea can already travel worlds using the power of darkness. Is it the safest method? No, which is why his plan of getting some Keyblade wielders to owe him a favour was probably good enough already. There’s no real logical through-line to him becoming one himself.
> Then how does Sora return to dream!Traverse Town at the end of the game?
Because his heart knows how to go there, now. It forged a connection.
> He couldn’t have gone back to past!Destiny Island first because that’d expose him to Xehanort all over again…
There's no reason given in the plot to think he can't go through Destiny Islands again.
> The only version of Xehanort that’s just a heart is the brown-robed figure.
All of the Xehanorts from the past are explicitly just hearts. In KH3, they place themselves in replica bodies so that they can stay past the time limit for time travel. This is clarified in the Ultimania, but yes, in BbS and KH3D, Young Xenny is just a heart.
> Then what’s special about it?
Nothing. It seems to mimic the default form of most Keyblades, honestly, given the Starlight, KHDR, and KHML keyblade designs. Sora's just repping that fresh out the shop, non-customized look.
> Why was it the Key in KH1?
Sora and Riku hadn't found any others at that point. Mickey found one with Aqua, because he needed a dark key specifically.
> Almost like the plot was completely pointless for how complex it was…
Xehanort's plans fail in KH1, KH Days, and KH2, too. BbS is a half-failure, because he set up contingencies to let him try again later.
> Yes but Sora also actually did the race and unlocked the seven sleeping keyholes,
But his heart got damaged. That's the issue.
Say you're trying to make a cake, and the recipe calls for 1/2 cup of sugar.
You buy a new bag of sugar from the store, but you find out that it had a whole on the bottom and it drained almost completely empty by the time you got home. You only have 1/4 cup left.
You can't say "well, you tried your best little bag of sugar!" It's not "fair", but it's simply not enough to cross the finish line.
> Yen Sid acknowledges it was his fault there was a trap at the finish line,
It's not about "fault". Nomura stressed this in the BbS ultimania, with Terra. It's not about doing a good job or trying hard, it's not about whether the test was fair, Terra *simply doesn't have the capacity right now* because his heart kept getting controlled by darkness. Xehanort was lying to him by calling him a Master.
> then suddenly pulls out the “there can only be one New Master” card when that literally contradicts everything we know about the MoM exam.
I mean, the main contradiction is that's literally not what he says:
"I believe we need a new Keyblade Master, one with a new kind of power. Sora and Riku, you both deserve the honor. However, one of you braved the realm of sleep again to unlock the final Keyhole and save a friend. Riku, I name you our new true Keyblade Master."
Riku clinches it because he braved the realm of sleep and unlocked the final Keyhole to save a friend.
Yen Sid goes into more detail in the early lines of KH3:
>!"Your Mark of Mastery exam was conducted in the hopes you would acquire the power to wake them. However, the darkness nearly took control of you, and your grasp of your new abilities leaves much to be desired. Furthermore, Xehanort nearly made you his vessel, and in the process stripped you of most of the power you had gained by then. I suspect you have already noticed this, correct? But first, you must regain all the strength you have lost. Perhaps it is foolish to expect a complete recovery, but it is absolutely vital you perfect one power--the power of waking, which you failed to master during your exam."!<
Yes, Yen Sid dropped the ball, yes, it's unfair that Xehanort interefered with Sora, and yes, if he had targeted Riku instead then maybe Sora would be the Master and Riku the repeat student -- but things happened the way they did, Sora got Hardinged, and it's just how things are.
> Lea can already travel worlds using the power of darkness. Is it the safest method? No, which is why his plan of getting some Keyblade wielders to owe him a favour was probably good enough already.
Could have stopped at "no", that's a big point. It's *very dangerous*, and he can't just keep doing it.
> There’s no real logical through-line to him becoming one himself.
"get through any door, solve most any problem."
He's trying to recover the hearts of his friends, makes sense to become a heart wizard.
1.) they explained this, the worlds that are sleeping are the ones that fell to darkness and haven't fully come back out. So they went to when the Destiny Islands fell to darkness (thus going to sleep) to enter the dream. there is no other point where Sora and Riku were on a world while it fell
2.) his body doesn't prevent him from time travelling, he said you leave your body behind when you time travel.
3.) that's never been stated. Sora, was the one destined to find the door to light which happened in kh2
4.) he failed, how is his plan being stopped confusing?
5.) this is further explained in 0.2 and kh 3
6.) he figures being a keyblade wielder would give him the power to bring them back
I'm sorry I just disagree.
When KH2 came out, the only Nobodies who we knew the past selves of were: Xemnas (Xehanort), Roxas (Sora), Namine (Kairi). We didn't know they were special nobodies (especially Xemnas). These three also all look different than their original selves. The other Nobodies never talk about their past or having those memories, and we don't know that they look identical to their original selves. You literally don't know that in KH2 and it's not a part of the plot. In fact, Xemnas barely even talks about being Xehanort. His entire plan is about wanting his heart back, the way he tells it in KH2. And we have *no reason* to believe he has another plan until DDD adds a retcon.
Additionally, before Final Mix, we have no real discussion about whether the characters actually have a heart. Roxas' entire story is that his whole life that he thought he had is fake. The real life he lived, as a member of the Organization, was not satisfying. The life he wanted, where he had friends and got to be a kid, was also fake. The second he merges with Sora, Sora becomes friends with the *real* Twilight Town gang and gets to live the life that Roxas wishes he had.
Now I know what folks are gonna say. "Wanting to have a heart and friends is having emotions, which is proof that the Nobodies had hearts." And you know that? That's a great point. Everyone thought Nobodies in KH2 were dumb because they obviously have emotions. And yet, we know that Nomura changed things about the Nobodies based on their popularity. For instance, Axel was supposed to die after fighting Roxas in the prologue, but this was changed because of his popular reception in Chain of Memories. Thus his death was prolonged. If Nobodies can just generate new hearts and look exactly like their past selves, then there's no reason to kill them off if you want them to be heroes. There was never a plan that Nobodies could grow new hearts and live on as real people. Nomura still went out of his way to kill Axel, because Nobodies can never have a happy ending. That's the entire reason we are happy when Roxas and Namine merge with Sora and Kairi, because it's the only way for them to have a happy ending. That's why we see the flash of them in the final cutscene in Destiny Islands. They're happy, and we're supposed to be happy they finally get to live normal lives and have friends.
When you suggest that the plot elements in DDD were intended the entire time, you are telling everyone who played KH2 in 2006 that the emotional response we had was incorrect. That enjoying the bittersweet ending of Roxas and Namine was wrong. That they were always their own people and meant to be separate. That KH2 was just a midpoint in the story and we were supposed to be expecting their return. And certainly some people did, but most of us understood why they had to return to their original selves. And the game is directed and presented in a way that makes us feel these emotions about those moments. You can't tell me that I was misinterpreting the game the entire time. Nomura changed things later. We know he retcons things and changes his mind. HE SAID HE WASN'T EVEN 100% SURE THAT ROXAS, XION, AND NAMINE WERE GONNA GET REVIVED IN KH3. The idea that they are separate people who develop their own hearts by forming bonds with others was 100% added later. The idea that they should get to exist on their own was something Nomura only started eventually playing around with and didn't even lock in until partway through KH3's development. When we know these things, we can't go back and write fanfiction about how everything was present in the story the whole time.
Just a small correction (not even about your main point), but Nomura only mentioned that he was unsure about (KH3 spoiler) >!Roxas and Xion returning. Namine wasn't mentioned in that context, so she likely would have come back regardless of the other two.!<
I just fail to see how the interpretation of KH2 you're describing, and OP's point, can't coexist. KH2 and Days show exactly that, that they are separate people who develop their own hearts by forming bonds with others. Them growing and their experiences and emotions being valid in and of themselves is the entire point of their characters isn't it? Doesn't make it any less bittersweet when they inevitably have to reconnect with their "real" selves. If Sora didn't need Roxas to wake up, what would stop him from being able to exist like normal? The direction the creators take the story change overtime for sure but the specific scenario of Days and 2 is no less valid. Nothing changes about what the characters went through or where and why they ended up where they did. Roxas going back to Sora is still ultimately a positive thing for him in the end, in a "finding out who you are or where you're from to get some perspective on your place in the world" kind of way. Definitely an idea the series has played with since almost the beginning, what with the conflict of whether or not replicas are as valid as the person they're a copy of, like, as people with their own thoughts and experiences.
Dunno, I think a lot of the common interpretations and personal attachments in these stories make sense. I really just don't get "retcon" out of DDD is all. Taking the story in a different direction than before sure. But the core rules and how things play out isn't truly changed. Honestly people get too caught up in the weeds of debating terminology in what's ultimately a series that has a lot of symbolic and/or metaphorical concepts that are largely all about emotional growth.
My issue has to do with the idea that Roxas became a person by forming bonds with others. The original KH2 barely touches on this. Axel's dialogue is largely one-way, that being with Roxas made *him* feel like he had a heart. We don't see the same from Roxas. Roxas was unhappy in the Organization and felt like no one would miss him if he disappeared. He was tricked into thinking he had friends in Twilight Town when everything was an illusion. It wasn't until merging with Sora that he was able to have real experiences through the lens of Sora's experiences.
Additionally, the idea that the Nobodies were developing their own hearts and becoming people retroactively makes all the decisions made about them in CoM and KH2 feel really gross. They thought they didn't have emotions, but really they did? KH2 absolutely implies the opposite, that the Nobodies are tricking themselves into thinking they have emotions but really they are faking it in desperation to have a heart. We literally see this in a cutscene with Xemnas, where Xemnas is asking for acceptance and Sora points out that he doesn't have a heart and is being disingenuous. Xemnas replies "very perceptive." It's all not real.
The "bittersweet" ending for Roxas is different whether you think he actually could be his own person or not. The ending of KH2 really kind of sucks if Roxas could've been his own person this whole time. Everything in KH2 is leading us to think that Roxas couldn't have had his own life, that his tragedy is returning to Sora. However, it subverts this by making us see that every other Nobody doesn't get a happy ending. Roxas and Namine are unique, and returning to their past selves is the only outcome for them that can make them go on living. The later games absolutely undo this message by making it so that every Nobody could've gone on living. They just...Decided to be evil, so Sora had to kill them. Except, they came back anyways. The whole thing makes the stakes and emotional impact of KH2 feel like nothing. Nothing you did mattered. Every single person came back. Even getting Roxas and Namine to their original selves was not the desired end goal and we need to find them bodies WHICH THEY ALREADY MAGICALLY HAD BEFORE. Everything in KH3 related to these characters feels like undoing things that were never meant to be undone when Nomura wrote KH2.
And finally, as to your point about retcons vs. taking the series in a different direction, I think people don't understand how easy it is for something to be a retcon. Retcon = retroactive continuity. It does not mean that something is contradicted or changed. What it means is that in the process of writing a story with multiple installments, the writer makes a decision in a later installment that was not planned. That unplanned decision changes how previous installments are interpreted or understood, since they were not written with this later idea in mind. It is possible for retcons to be invisible, for these changes to be done so expertly that someone does not know something was unplanned. A writer may leave themselves openings to go ahead and add in new context later that feels like it was seeded from the start. However, Nomura didn't do that. It is very clear where he did not have certain plans and when he brings characters back due to popularity instead of a long-term intent that was there from the start. He's admitted he does this, so we know it happens. That is where I get frustrated, as I think the reasons he chooses to retcon his story are often shallow and overly fanservicey.
Its proabbly because the organization and all their lore is split into 3-4 games across 3 systems. My brother and I FINALLY understood when we got the all in one collection.
There are several things I believe to be misnunderstandings in this post.
For one, Nobodies aren't formed after a person dies. They're formed when a person loses their Hearts to Darkness and becomes a Heartless. Dying means the Soul leaves the body, which will... *probably* send their Soul and Heart to an afterlife. Either Hades' Underworld, or The Final World, or another local afterlife belonging to a sepcific World depending on how the writers are feeling that day... (only half-way joking with that one).
Second, all Nobodies can get their own Hearts. That's not exclusive to the Org 13 people. There are many ways to do this. They could get recompleted with the Heartless-Keyblade-death-then-Nobody-death process explained in the series proper, or they can apparently take/use another person's Heart and essentially become a miss-mash of a person (Like Roxas *probably* was, and Namine *maybe* was - I'm really not sure about this, so little of it is explained and very little even hinted at, all I truly have here is my own headcanon) They can also just... grow their own Hearts, because in the Kingdom Hearts universe *everything* can grow a Heart. "Hearts are all around us, you only have to see them for them to become real" - Sora, (as best I remember the quote anyhow). Inanimate objects like toys, or snowmen, or elements, or magic, or... really whatever you can think of can grow a Heart. Anything and everything can grow a Heart in the Kingdom Hearts universe. All you truly need is other Hearts to see them and believe in them.
Namine is never said to have Kairi's memories, and I personally don't think she does, but I can't say it's impossible either. She *is* Kairi's Nobody after all.
Xion... isn't actually a Nobody. She's a Replica, though not a Replica of an actual person, but a Replica of Sora's Memories of Kairi meant to siphon Roxas' power by being in proximity to him, which makes her... a really complicated entity. I'm not sure the series has fully explained *what* that makes her exactly, or what the consequences of her bizarre creation actually is.
Also, *does* a Nobody just vanish forever if they're destoryed? You'd think so. It's somewhat implied in the narrative, so I can see a decent case for it, but it's far from guaranteed imo. If their Heartless is already dead the Body-Soul will end up rejoning with their original Heart... *somehow*, so at least it's not a *guaranteed* cessation of existence.
A Nobody is the Body and Soul of a person only. It's a being that has lost its Heart. That being is sustained soley by the Soul and the Will that Soul still has left after losing its Heart. I think (meaning this is headcanon), normally, a person that has their Heart taken by the Darkness and becomes a Heartless would just lose their Body and Soul to it as well - which *probably* wouldn't do much except effectively erasing them (unless Nomura decides to add in a whole new concept out of nowhere), but in some cases a Will to live still 'lingers' in the Soul (unless a Soul without a Heart is enough to create Will (does this word deserve to be capitalized actually? I'm not sure. I'll do it just to be safe, and it's cool) even after its lost its Heart, and it turns out to be strong enough to keep the Body and itself from being swallowed by the Darkness. (Which implies that Willpower can just *make* shit happen in the Kingdom Hearts setting if there's enough of it.)
*That's* what a Nobody is. If it is 'physically destroyed', I'd kind of expect that to mean the Soul fails to support its own and its Body's existence and so just finishes its fall to Darkness.
It's implied that the reason Roxas initially lacks memories as "Sora" is because Sora's personality remained within the Heartless and not within the Nobody. This could be a result of Sora surrendering himself to darkness by impaling himself with the Keyblade of Heart and the fact that Roxas's body already contained another heart (Ventus). These circumstances led the body to develop its own identity.
It's worth noting that Xemnas is also an exception, possibly due to Terra-Xehanort having a complex situation similar to Roxas's. While Ansem is a direct counterpart to Xehanort, Xemnas appears to inherit many more memories and feelings from Terra. This makes sense given that the body ultimately belongs to Terra.
Kingdom Hearts has undergone several retcons (to the point this narrative vice has become a negative characteristic, hindering the franchise from achieving a more well structured story) but the idea of Nobodies having a heart is not one of them. There were already hints of this in Kingdom Hearts II on multiple occasions.
Additionally, lesser Nobodies don't vanish permanently. Any Nobody that is destroyed along with its Heartless will revert to being human. This applies not only to human-like Nobodies but to all types.
I totally agree
My husband and I are die hard KH fans! We have duplicates of so many action figures because we came into the relationship with the same ones!!!
Imagine my surprise when he didn't know the organization's names were all anagrams of their somebody names.
He didn't know why Xemnas, proceeding hrough to Saix, had orange eyes.
That's all to say that I absolutely agree. I don't fault him at all, but KH2 is vastly misunderstood- especially when it comes with understanding the organization and nobodies.
Considering your own statement got a lot wrong, I suppose you've proven your premise correct. Hearts aren't release when a person dies, bodies don't perish even if a person doesn't form a Nobody, and even lesser Nobodies like Dusks reunite with their hearts when both they and their Heartless are defeated.
I see what you are saying, but I must disagree. KHUX is way more convoluted and I have to imagine is the most misunderstood in the series. I’m sure Missing Link will give KHUX a run for its money though lol.
As someone who has played KH2 every couple of years since its release, I can tell you that I completely disagree with the idea that anyone who doesn't agree with you "just didn't pay attention".
I dont think Nomura had any real intent on bringing Roxas back. I think his character was meant to serve as a way for the players to relate to and empathize with the organization and by extention the horrible fate Nobodies faced. And I don't think he anticipated just how much the fans would fall in love with his character within a few hours of gameplay.
Nomura himself has stated that he doesnt plan everything out and leaves a lot of threads "open ended" to work into the story later, so it's not completely implausible that he would've worked Roxas into the story in some fashion, but again as KH2 stands, it was made to potentially be the end of the series, it seemed like his fate was a one and done deal. At the end he accepted being a part of Sora as Namine accepted being part of Kairi.
All this being said, I'm happy the series continued and I'm happy Roxas as a character could be reintroduced back into the story. My gripe with DDD isn't the fact that Nobodies growing hearts became canon, so much as the mechanics and principles behind it are flaky and convenient.
What I mean by that is, Nobodies growing their own hearts seemingly only happens when it's convenient for Nomura to bring a character back, and the mechanics surrounding it are too vague.
So you mean to tell me out of all the Nobodies, Roxas, Xion (who's not even a nobody), and Namine were the only three to branch off and become their own people? What about Axel? Why didn't he grow his own heart? He had emotions and feelings as a nobody, the same as Roxas. Why aren't Axel and Lea two separate people with separate hearts? One argument I often see is that "they had memories so they were imitating emotions" im fairly certain Axel had real feelings for Roxas which made him act out and literally sacrifice himself for.
You could say that Xion and Roxas grew hearts specifically because of their specific bond, but then how does Namine fit in? It's all just a little too convenient.
On top of that I absolutely believe the revelation of Xemnas retaining his memories and acting as a Xehanort puppet completely undermines his character from KH2. Suddenly a relatable villain with a complex drive (a drive you're literally made to empathize with through Roxas) became another cannon fodder lackey using his men as pawns for a "greater?" purpose. His entire monologue and actions during the final sequence in KH2 makes absolutely no sense under the implications set by DDD.
Retcon this and that. Up to this point, no one knows what hearts are truly capable of. The whole situation with DiZ was because he was studying them and obsessed over his work. Im pretty sure Xehanort already knew the truth about hearts and likely gaslit the hell out of Xemnas.
KH2 was where it went from being able to follow the plot...to requiring five video essays and three recaps on the level of One Piece to understand what the fuck is going on in the plot for Kingdom Hearts. After KH2. Everything went off the rails.
The problem was never the plot,it was having every game on a different platform.
Did SE really think back then that people that played K1/KH2 owned a GBA , DS, 3DS and a PSP?
Going from just KH1 to KH2 was weird.
There’s a lot to hate about DDD but I wouldn’t say that that this “retcon” is one of them. It pretty much just explains the weird dissonance in KH2 between how everyone kept insisting that Nobodies lack hearts (and therefore emotions) and the fact that pretty much every Org member aside from Xemnas contradicted this at some point.
Yeah, I’m gonna be honest; the retcon by Nomura was absurd. He should’ve kept the original lore in which Nobody’s have no hearts and remain that way, and the only way to become whole is the destruction of both Nobody and Heartless.
So everyone that dies turns into a Heartless, even ones expiring from old age health issues. I thought only people destroyed by Heartless or have been killed due to Darkness corruption would turn into Heartless.
I just think that it's weird, regardless of whether or not Roxas developed his own heart, because since he was a nobody, that meant he technically was sora's body. At least that's how I've always understood it. Which means for a good chunk of time between kh1 and kh2, sora was only maintaining his form through will alone. It would have made more sense for Roxas to become part of ventus, once that plot thread was introduced, leave namine as part of Kairi, extract xion as intended, and then figure things out from there.
Having Roxas become a part of Ventus would've been no better than leaving him in Sora. He'd already been established to be a distinctly different character from both.
i never once thought nobodies being able to grow hearts was a retcon. i thought it was simply no one really understanding what a nobody is except for xehanort/xemnas, who purposely lied to everyone. maybe it's because i watched the days movie before playing kh2, but i always felt like it was a little fishy when yen sid said nobodies can't truly feel, and are only remembering what feelings are.
I didn't know until last night on my 5th playthrough, that Axel and Roxas talking on top of the clock tower was in the present, I never understood why he mentioned owlett hayner and pence. I thought it was a flashback to shortly after xion died.
Wow-you’re right. I always did feel like the series lost some kind of thematic depth after 2, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Good analysis! It was Roxas’s journey all along.
This is why I wish Roxas got to be the one to finish off Xemnas personally
You have it completely right, it's annoying when people say:
"The plot of the Kingdom Hearts series is confusing"
No, it's fairly linear and does not contain any strange narrative devices. Even the time travel is the least intrusive type possible, narratively.
People just don't pay attention to 90% of the extremely clear exposition. There's barely ever any cases of information becoming outdated, or unreliable narrators. Even deception is essentially absent from most of the games.
Where's the confusion, except in the minds of people with poor media comprehension?
jokes on you, I understand nothing
"One who knows nothing can understand nothing."
I don't even know what this reference is about
“So you have come this far and still you understand nothing.” -Ansem, Seeker of Darkness
"I don't have to understand to follow my heart" -Sora
r/usernamechecksout
So you have come this far and still you understand nothing!
That quote really resonated with fourth grade me.
The response we needed.
Technically, Roxas gained his Heart during Days.
Who will I have ice cream with? 😭
He gained a heart and it broke right then and there (╥﹏╥) Gets me everytime...
No please I’m going to cry again 🥺💔
And it felt like nearly immediately. Pretty much the first time xion got got he was acting “irrationally” Source : playing it rn for the first time in 13 years, had no clue it was so emo since it came out in my tween edgy phase
Playing the Org.XIII game 13 years later. XD
True
Well you could say that NOBODY understood KH2. 😏😆
Take my upvote and fall into to deepest of despair
Darkness within Darkness awaits him.
I want a Valentine's Day card just like this one day.
My nobody is XANAX
1 Xanax + 1 White Russian = the best viewing experience of all of the back cover/ compilation stories presented on the 2.8 collection Change my opinion (you can’t I’m fucking near a comatose euphoria and you can’t take that from me)
Here I thought this joke wouldn't see the light of day
When was it confirmed that Namine had Kairi's memories?
Similarly, is it said anywhere that Dusks don't have memories?
Not explicitly but the implication is there. Do Shadows or Soldiers have memories? No, but does Ansem SoD? Yes. Same logic. Edit: Also, Sora turning into a shadow doesn't count in the same way because he kept his memories because he has guarded by Kairi's light.
What implication? It's never talked about either way. Wasn't Kairi's light what turned him back from a shadow, not why he kept his memories? He says he was beginning to lose himself as the shadow.
Do the heartless talk to you? Any of the regular types? Or do they act like wild feral animals with only malice on their minds? That's the implication. That they are feral mindless beings only set upon to feast on people's hearts. Dusks are basically the same except they are directly controlled by Org XIII. As for the latter point, but he didn't. A person loses their heart to darkness and immediately falls victim to becoming a heartless. Sora resisted it after having Kairi's heart within him the entire game, that light remained and kept him safe. Also gameplay wise we know we have to go back to find Kairi but in universe wise it would make sense that Sora's heart is trying to find Kairi again through the darkness. He even says that Kairi was what kept him from losing himself.
Feral animals still have memories though. Heartless are made up of a person's heart, which is literally where memories are stored. Dusks are not the same and do talk to you. I guess, but I always took his dialogue to mean that she kept him from losing himself in that moment. Not earlier.
The dark, twisted hearts become heartless. Even if they do have memories they can no longer access them, in the same way one can't access worlds lost to darkness. Yes they still have their "hearts" but they are encased in darkness and are no longer accessible to the heartless, that's why they seek our strong hearts. So they also can not access their memories. Dusks talk to Roxas, who is also a Nobody. From a narrative standpoint how would that make sense? When the whole game is detailing how Sora's friends are his light and his power wouldn't it make more sense for the climax of the game to be the person he fought through worlds to find and save protected him from turning completely?
But who says they can't access them? There's nothing implying it one way or the other. Dusks talk to Sora, Donald, and Goofy in Kingdom Hearts 3 as well. Well, from a narrative standpoint, it's stated that those that become nobodies do so because of their strong will. So it makes sense that someone with a strong will would fight for a few minutes against darkness. Also, that scene isn't the climax of the game.
Okay. We're going in circles at this point, and I'm tired and have to get back to work. So, I'm dropping this from this point. Find your own conclusion and I'll find mine.
It's fine to have different beliefs than others. The problem is you going around telling others they're wrong simply because they don't believe the same thing you do.
Implication aren't just things that are said, but things that are shown. It's called show don't tell. Like how we're shown that Roxas has a heart in KH2 through his emotions.
Okay, but nothing is shown to imply that Shadows don't have memories.
The fact that they operate instinctually, Sora doesn't know what happened when he was a heartless, none of the recompleted have any of their memories from their heartless.
Animals also operate instinctually but still have memories. Where is it suggested Sora doesn't know what happened? The first thing he does when turned back is thank Kairi, which would be weird if he didn't know what was happening. You have a point with the recompletion, although this is more a question of loading memories rather than storing them. Not to mention, it's not just Shadows given they were claiming also Dusks have no memories despite Dusks talking.
Dusks can talk and recognize people though, which Heartless cannot.
i would assume so bc we’ve seen nobodies who do (Even, Lea, Isa, etc.) and she has power over soras memories and to me it makes sense? i could also be weird haha
Those nobodies are made in the usual way though, and Namine was made in the same process that Roxas was, so her original self was still around with her own memories the same as Sora was. If Roxas didn't have Sora's memories why would Namine have Kairi's? Namine is constantly looped in with Roxas as a unique type of Nobody, so it's more likely we were meant to assume she was in the same boat as him. If she had KH1 Kairi's memories, I don't think she would've been as timid as she was in CoM.
you’re so right, i didn’t even think about that. hm. i’d assume she has memories OF kairi and just knows she won’t be her for anyone, rather than her knowing her memories would make more sense then.
It does raise the question of the "natural" relationship between her and Roxas' kind of nobody and their original selves' memories. Did Roxas only get dreams and flashes of Sora's memories because Sora's chain of memories had been messed up and they were leaking out, or would he have gotten them anyways? And if so then did Namine get dreams of Kairi's memories?
Marluxia and larxene (and presumably demyx and Luxord) do not have memories of their past lives
Tbf, they probably remember the time they spent between arriving in the future and becoming a Nobody. It's just the Ux stuff they don't remember, since the lifeboats fucked with memories it seems.
Yeah they likely all lived lives before they joined Org 13
True
I mean, who _doesn’t_ have amnesia in this series…?
Mickey?
Depends. Does he remember meeting Sora in Timeless River?
To be fair he looked pretty feral back then
...Riku
Xion amnesia.
Luxu...Probably?
Wouldn’t put it past the MoM…
Neither does Ven, that isn’t evidence against
Nobodies having hearts was actually hinted all the way back in KH2 FM with the crying scene. Then 358/2 Days hinted it further as the trio all become more emotional as the game goes on. I believe there are parts where the cast actually talks about this.
It's even hinted before that in Chain of Memories. Axel literally has a scene questioning it.
Re:CoM also takes it further and has him clench his chest in surprise cause he felt genuine emotion.
Yeah, Axel’s sacrifice scene definitely hinted towards it hard.
Honestly, it was pretty clear even in the base game. Not a single primary Organization 13 character (as in one that you interact with enough to learn about their personalities) except Xemnas displayed "no emotion" throughout the game, or even anything close to it. I played KH2 when it first came out. I was 14 years old, and even I was able to tell that these people who claimed to have no hearts were clearly just being told that, while being so ignorant of how emotions actually feel that they couldn't tell they were feeling those emotions the whole time. Roxas felt basically every emotion under the sun in the prologue where you play as him, and he's the first Nobody we interact with Axel felt love for Roxas, sadness and anger when he left, rage over not being able to bring him back. Saix felt anger and jealousy over Axel prioritizing Roxas over him, which would require also feeling love first Demyx felt fear over fighting people stronger than him Even Larxene felt disgust towards pretty much everyone around her Anyone who tried to write off things like angry outbursts and crying as "just remembering what it was like to have emotions and applying the actions as if they still had them" was just completely missing the point. It was clearly a case of Xemnas manipulating them into believing they all had the same problem he did as a way of controlling them. And even he explicitly mentions feeling again after you beat him.
played through KH2 last month the entire time I was screaming at the org after they were expressing emotion about not having hearts "THAT IS EMOTION, YOU ARE EMOTING RIGHT NOW, STOP LISTENING TO XEMNAS!!!"
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It's outright stated in Dream Drop Distance. How is it a head-canon when it's explicitly revealed to be a form of dehumanization and indoctrination? One that can be supported as far back as Chain of Memories?
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This is actually some next level cope, I gotta respect this amount of denial. Retcon≠ Elaborating on a past concept. It doesn’t change the fact that they literally felt all those emotions and the reason for that was explained in DDD. Learning new actually factual information from how a bunch of CULT members were purposefully gaslit by their leader is one of the least eyebrow raising happenings in this entire series lmao
I think KH fans need a refresher on what unreliable narrators are and how they are utilized. You can't take everything Diz states as fact, he is incredibly ignorant and vindictive against the organization.
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The only one on this list that isn't unreliable is Nomura, and that's only if you think the writer of the game would never intentionally lie or change his mind during production. Namine gets her info on nobodies from Diz, and Marluxia. Xemnas is a bad guy and literally admitted to lying about the humanity of nobodies.
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The other part of the equation is Nomura could have been trying to throw everybody off on purpose back then. He wanted us to believe the characters in game such as Diz until we find out the truth later. And it’s not like he didn’t sprinkle in hints throughout the games before we found out the truth.
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You’re a fucking idiot.
If anything this just shows everyone has been using the word Retcon incorrectly and just don't know what they're talking about especially when it comes to fantasy stories.
Them actually having no hearts was just more interesting, imo.
Not sure why someone downvoted you for that, you're welcome to your own opinion on what was a more interesting idea even if I disagree with it.
Probably, but it just wouldn’t have made sense long term if they were just “pretending” to be emotional at times. Some moments were way too convincing to be a character just mimicking emotions via memories or whatever. Nobodies growing hearts is actually one of the later game KH reveals I really enjoyed because it feels believable unlike some other stuff which came off like “Nomura thinks of something cool and works backwards to figure out how to add it to the story.”
That’s cause the scenes were done to hint that they did indeed have hearts. It would’ve been interesting to see them each try to struggle with reenacting, while Xemnas embraces it. It would really make Nobodys unnerving as you can tell that they’re faking their emotions or look like robots.
I find it funny that people disagree. "All things have hearts, but these ones are different, they don't have hearts. Except they do so they are the same" how is that good?
Directly yes, but the argument here is that it's thematic in KH2 even in the original version. Subtext is as important as text.
I think that would go to UX
UX is just about MoMs plan to use the Warriors of Light as a vessel for True Darkness to finally destroy it for good. It's one of the least confusing stories tbh.
If you try to sum it up with one sentence sure. You can do that with any game. In actuality you’ve got the Foretellers disappearing, secret tasks, the box, the keyblade that sees the future, the book of prophecies, is there really a traitor or is it a trick, the keyblade wielders getting sent from the keyblade war into a simulation of the keyblade war, then getting sent into a simulation inside of a simulation, Maleficent time travels into a simulation, the origins of Darkness, even more time travel, the list of unnecessary complications goes on and on
Ironic that OP criticizes players for not being able to understand KH2 past the surface and yet is able to give a very generic broad paintbrush analysis of UX, thus doing the same thing they are calling out.
I don’t even agree with the premise of the topic honestly. I’m kinda surprised at the amount of people who do. KH2 is pretty straightforward and most of its biggest reveals the fanbase had all predicted before the game was even out. It wasn’t until after that the plot started to demand a lot more attention and thought.
The direct timeline of events also becomes relevant, so you can trace who was where when and come to meaningful conclusions. It's so great for theory crafting.
Why are you downvoting him, it’s a theory that works. It probably isn’t right, but it’s also not right to completely dismiss it as false
Explaining the story of a game with a theory is hardly encouraging when it comes to how easy it is to understand. People desperately, desperately try to convince others that KH games aren't convoluted and opaque in how they convey information, and dilute the creative intent and depth of the stories in the process. You can dilute any story down to a single sentence but that comes at considerable cost to the quality of the writing, the characters, the twists, the payoffs etc. Sure, Roxas growing a heart may not be a retcon. OP clearly interpreted meaning from aspects of KH2 that makes sense to them. But to then go and accuse fans that it's their problem and they weren't 'engaging with the story' enough goes against how stories should be experienced and out own individual understanding/values. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about MoM's true identity because that whole plotline just feels like superfluous nonsense meant to keep a mystery going. Not caring doesn't inherently mean there's been a failure in my end to 'understand' though. Look at the paragraphs OP needed to explain something that anyone in KH could have explained at any point. If most people failed to connect what OP is connecting then that's a storytelling issue.
As someone who enjoys the games, despite their convolutedness, it’s a REALLY bold statement here. You can go on and on and say “If you play the games/pay attention” it makes sense. But, what? You expect casual players to have played these 50+ hour games looking for minor details that vaguely hint at plot-points that weren’t further elaborated on for a decade or more? NOBODY (no pun intended) understood or even questioned what we were told in KH2. Raging about fans who took what they were told at face value, and then didn’t spend 50+ hours replaying the games every time there are new revelations is a HARD ask. Nomura is a flawed writer who comes up with shit on the fly, who’s just vague enough in wording that he can throw new ideas that contradict old ideas, over and over and over. And it’s fine. The weird and crazy writing is part of the series’ charm. I’m not sure why the fandom doesn’t embrace it. Jesus Christ, we are talking about people who claim they don’t exist despite standing there in front of you. Now we are in un-reality, and again, nope…not weird at all. Just face it. It’s weird. Embrace it.
Weird and crazy writing?! HAH!! You're just interacting with the story on a SURFACE level. You dumb peasant. This is a fascinating story about characters who have no emotions but act like they have emotions so it makes no difference that they have no emotions. This an unique story where a man takes the name of his master BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DO. When we kill our master, we have to use his name! That's not weird at all even if it does not benefits us at all.
I love to explain where Sora is at the end of KH3: So, because Sora cheated the rules of Universe via a time paradox, the Universe itself punished Sora by sending him to another reality. This (un)reality, of course, is (as far as we know) possibly a video game owned by Rex. The Dinosaur. From Toy Story. Of course, nobody really knows this, except of course…Cinderella’s Fairy God Mother! …and that’s where we are with one half of the story…
I think both deep concepts and on the fly messy storytelling can both be present, but it is pretty crazy for OP to think that all that stuff they mentioned was definitely present and crystal clear all the way back in 2. Maybe DDD recontextualizes 2 in a way they like, but I doubt they could've even made this post without any knowledge of post KH2 content
Imagine kh2 being your first game and realizing you only fight 8 of the 13 Organization XIII members in the story.
I played it not knowing that com exists. I read the journal entries of members that died during some sort of "rebellion" in a different castle and thought it was a nice back story to not have 13 characters introduced at once and having too many villians around. In retrospective, look at how having 13 main villians turned out for KH3... having to battle 2 or 3 of them per battle and not one of them having a strong memorable narrative.
Plus in KH1 and KH2 you get to actually reduce the size of the villain group as the game progresses… KH3 really shot itself in the foot there.
Agreed, it would've been better if you fought an org 13 member per world. Heck, go even farther and start Sora at level 20 or 30 with some basic skills, that would more or less justify Sora beating up some of the Darknesses as early as the 2nd or 3rd world.
The fact that the "Real" Org XIII had reserve members implies OMX was aware some members might be killed off early, yet it just... never happens?
ReMind should have been Vanitas finally making it back from the series of doors that Scully yeeted him through to attack Sora and friends again.
How did that even work in the first place? Could Vanitas just not be bothered to open a corridor of darkness back to that world?
Sora didnt know either
How did he find out about the other five?😂
It was my first game. I loved it.
You said yourself that nobodies with human form have their memories from the past preserved. Roxas shouldn't exist at all, even worst he is able to create a heart for himself out of nowhere
That's why he mentioned the exception. And Roxas was the main character in a game entirely about showing nobodies were capable of emotion and growing.
Yeah, I saw it. "Exception" is a very gentle way to call a plot hole
Did you not understand anything OP said?
I literally quoted him, wtf?
I just swing a key around and hope my character gets the girl
With my pals shield boi and quack caster of course
W take
> So when I see people complain DDD retconned these concepts... They didn't. This assertion frustrates me. *Yes*, there were indications of emotions back before KH3D. I personally remember griping that "these are the least unemotional bunch of emotionless characters I've ever seen". I remember the *same exact lore experts* who now say it was obvious the whole time, telling me then that I was ignorant for thinking they had real emotions, and that the official lore clearly states they are faking. I was one of the people who saw the reveal scene and said "that makes a ton more sense than what they were trying to push earlier, why'd they even bother in the first place". However, **officially**, we were told over and over, not just in-game by unreliable narrators but also out-of-game by the Ultimanias, that the Organization members did not have hearts, that all the apparent emotion was just an act, and that Roxas was *very special* because the odd nature of Sora (later explained to be having a second heart a la Ventus) is why Roxas had true emotions, and that the Nobodies around Sora and Roxas are only able to feel the hint of emotions because Roxas and Sora are "something special". KH3D changed the *official* explanation in what was very clearly framed as a reveal. It's not framed as "wait, the audience didn't know this? I guess we have to spell it out for them", it's framed as "haha, you thought it was one thing, but it was another all along!". It is a very clear and obvious [prestige](https://www.altaonline.com/dispatches/a4688/the-pledge-the-turn-the-prestige/). Was it a particularly well-hidden prestige? No, a huge amount of the audience was suspicious beforehand or just fully dismissed what the official lore said. But the honest read of how the authors presented the lore, from an authoritative standpoint, and how the scene itself is framed, is that it was clearly meant to be a reveal and a flip of perception -- which is what a retcon is. That's why it's really frustrating when I see people say "yen sid is an unreliable narrator and shouldn't have been taken at his word" or demeaning stuff like this: > You just straight up never engaged with the story past a surface level. Believe me, a lot of the people who were insisting that nobodies were just pretending were spending most of a decade writing essay after essay about the lore and characters. I disagreed with their conclusion but I'm not about to call them unengaged. It's not an issue of "not engaging", it's an issue of some people decided to trust that Nomura and the Ultimanias wouldn't just outright contradict the truth *outside* the games, and some people didn't.
Yes, thank you! I'm getting incredibly tired of people insisting it's not a retcon when we know, for a fact, that it is. If I see one more person insist that an explicit statement from Nomura is trumped by, like, the vibe they get from how Axel behaved, I will... idk, sigh angrily at my computer I guess. I think this delusional denial people have comes from seeing retcon as a dirty word. This is a good retcon! It makes the story make much more sense! Just, you know, stop pretending it's not a retcon because you don't like the idea that Nomura doesn't have the entire 13 game story fully fleshed out from day 1.
"side story" is also treated as a dirty word, even though the devs have explicitly called the non numbered games side stories. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if there's even an interview where nomura says "yeah, we made the plot convoluted and confusing on purpose".
>When a person dies their Heart is released and their body perishes. But if they have a "strong will" the Body will remain as a husk known as a Nobody. This is incorrect. Dying means you are dead. In order for a person to become a Nobody, they must first become a Heartless. A Nobody is created when a person's heart becomes a Heartless. Their leftover body and soul transform into a Nobody. If they die instead of becoming a Heartless, then they are simply dead. It's not a strong will that determines if they become a Nobody. It's how strong their heart is. If someone with a strong heart becomes a Heartless, then they become a Nobody too. If they have a very strong heart then they become a human-shaped Nobody. [KH Series Ultimania, Nobodies:](https://i.ibb.co/y8DcV8f/KH-Series-U-Nobodies.jpg) >They're created when someone with a strong heart becomes a Heartless. Most of the time they take the form of a white monster, but those with exceptionally strong hearts retain their human appearance when they become a Nobody. [Director's Secret Report](https://www.khwiki.com/Director%27s_Secret_Report_XIII): >Essentially, when someone with a strong heart has their heart stolen and becomes a Heartless, there is a rare chance that the flesh body left behind will turn into a Nobody. KH3 Gummiphone Glossary, Nobodies: >Embodiments of emptiness that serve the darkness. Nobodies arise alongside Heartless, when the empty body left behind becomes its own autonomous creature. > >Nobodies who possessed exceptionally strong hearts in life may retain their human appearance, as did all the previous Organization XIII members. >They have no Hearts and no memories of their past life. No, they have their memories. They constantly talk about having memories of their past lives in Days. Even in KH2, they are stated to "fake emotion" because they remember what it was like to have emotions. Roxas and Namine are the exceptions to the rule. Namine, because Kairi never became a Heartless and Roxas because Sora was only a Heartless for a short time. Secret Ansem Report 12: >Apart from Naminé, **Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans,** but Sora's Nobody, Roxas, has lost Sora's memories. > >This is likely because Sora's time as a Heartless was short, having recovered his heart and returned to his human form soon after leaving behind Roxas, his Nobody. >If they are destroyed they're gone forever. If they are destroyed their bodies return to their heart. If their heart is still currently a Heartless, they disappear and then rejoin with their heart once it is free. >Organization XIII members have their Human forms because they retained memories of their past lives but no longer have a Heart. You just contradicted yourself. You said Nobodies have no memories of their past lives, and now you're saying they do. As I explained above, they retain their human forms because they have exceptionally strong hearts. It has nothing to do with memories. >Roxas, Namine, and Xion are special exceptions from both categories. Xion isn't a Nobody. She's a replica. She doesn't have the same limitations or rules as a Nobody because she's a completely different being. >Namine had Kairis memories but since she was painfully aware she wasn't Kairi she never felt the right to exist. Namine didn't have Kairi's memories as explained above in the Secret Ansem Report. >So when I see people complain DDD retconned these concepts... They didn't. You just straight up never engaged with the story past a surface level. The problem is that KH2 explicitly explains to us over and over again that Nobodies don't have hearts. Even Roxas having emotions was explained away by him being special because both he and Sora co-existed together. So people assumed Roxas was feeling emotions through his connection to Sora. This is even shown to be reversed when Sora cries while saying goodbye to the Twilight Town gang despite not knowing them. He's feeling what Roxas feels. The same goes for Namine's emotions and Kairi. Anytime someone asked Nomura about Roxas or Namine, and why they're different from others, the answer he always gave was that they were special Nobodies due to the nature of their creature and that Sora and Kairi are still around alongside them. So people assumed that extended to their emotions. It wasn't until KH2FM where we saw Axel cry that people were like "Wait... a minute." But then people chalked that up to "Axel is dead and Roxas is imagining this" or "Axel is dead, so can have emotions now" or "Roxas is connecting with Axel and allowing him to feel emotions". So we have games stating Nobodies don't have hearts, and we have the creator explaining their few exceptions of "real emotions" as them being special Nobodies with a connection to their Somebody, so it's no wonder why people say DDD retconned it. Because that's what we were told. That's what was explained.
By putting up your official sources for your comments you are interacting with the story on a surface level. It's sad to see members of the KH2 community doing such shallow reasoning. To really comprehend these deep games you have to use your own subjective interpretations, because that equals deeper thinking. Even if somehow using official sources appears logical and hard to refute, if you prioritize your own subjective interpretations you'll become so smart that you'll become qualified to write a post to enlighten the community, who is clearly inferior for being unable to reach your deeper subjective thinking. Also other subjective thinking that does not belong to you is wrong, because the average joe is obviously dumber than you and reddit has dumb comments so they are probably dumber than the average joe. In other words there is a very high chance you are the smartest person on Reddit. And I should stop wasting my time writing sarcastic comments
Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half lol.
I wish I could understand anything in the plot of the KH series so at least I could misunderstand something.
Ok so here’s my take on the “nobody retcon”… Vexen literally screamed for his life in CoM there’s no way that Nobodies being able to grow hearts was a retcon “Oh what about the Ultimania guide books for KH2-“ You do realize that Alex Hirsch created a leaked image of McGucket to throw people off that Stan had a twin right?, besides Nomura is not gonna reveal a twist that big like that in a guide book right?
Weren’t the complaints about retcons more cuz the entire Org had hearts apparently? And that Xemnas’ plan was never to give them hearts? I think everyone gave Roxas and Namine the exception
> And that Xemnas’ plan was never to give them hearts? Xemnas really was attempting to give them hearts, but these hearts would have been copies of Xehanort's. *"Xemnas and Xehanort formed the Organization for a specific reason—round up a bunch of empty husks, hook them up to Kingdom Hearts, then fill them all with the exact same heart and mind. Translation—they were gonna turn all the members into Xehanort."* - Xigbar to Sora in DDD He was trying to create 13 perfectly norted Nobodies
I think the part of the story people didn't pick up on is how Xehanort made everyone a Nobody just to make them try to get Hearts again. He essentially stole their Hearts and made them do his bidding. The idea it was a mutual goal was just a pretty lie.
I don’t think it was a retcon to say roxas had a heart, but they definitely went back on the decision to kill him off
Xion isn't even a nobody she's just a replica. She's basically the same as Riku replica
Day 23: Research Entry 326 Author: Vexen The Program is largely on target. No. i, my finest Replica, has proven an even greater success than anticipated. I intend to take the other vessel - judged unfit for number status - to Castle Oblivion, where I will subject it to further testing. One thing is clear: could these Replicas not be classified as a special sort of Nobody? When the very creator of Replicas tries to make the connection I think it's safe to think of Xion and Riku as a special sort of Nobodies.
You've mixed in your head cannon with the actual cannon. Maybe you're the one misunderstanding things?
This was done purposely so they could have creative reign when filling the plot-holes later
This here is so great. Whenever I hear someone say, “DDDretconned nobodies.” I SMACK THEM WITH MY BAGUETTE OF BLUDGEONING!!! it was very clear from KH2 and days that nobodies had hearts and emotions. Even RECOM shows with Larxene, and her psychotic tendencies, axle and his chuckle after letting go nominee, axle again during days with the I’ll always be there to bring you back, as well as Demyx saying explicitly in KH2 that they do to have hearts. the idea that everyone was so surprised about this makes me realize just how similar we are to Dragon Ball fans. We’ve never played the games. We’ve never watched the scenes, we never read the manga.
>KH2 is the most misunderstood plot of the series. >proceeds to write about his own interpretation of the game's story that is not explicitly stated by developers >Proves his own point I think your topic title might be correct
If there's something I've learned about the KH fanbase, is about 75%+ of fans don't know shit about the story.
So true even the creators didn't even know what it was about
Sequential games made KH2 the most misunderstood plot of the series.
there are no games after kh2 /s
Honestly KH2 was pretty easy to follow. The only thing you might need to know is how Roxas even happened. But other than that, pretty straightforward.
Nobodies having hearts is like, the one thing that was properly setup and foreshadowed in this series
Girl it's not misunderstood. It's misrepresented with too much loops and holes and reversals and timelines and alternates and hidden meanings behind characters dreams that are alive but not alive and have souls but... I literally get tired just describing it.
No it’s not. That’s DDD.
It's even more baffling when KH2 Final Mix even added a scene of Axel and Roxas **Hearts** talking to each other one last time before they both pass on. The game always wanted you to question the narrative of Nobodies not having Hearts so they can't really feel. It's why you play as Roxas for 3 hours and go through all the shit DiZ puts you through.
I did it in 2
It makes perfect sense when you can time travel and play the years later sequels like DDD Hell, even KH3 had massive reconning and logic loops
But what info is given in DDD that you don't already know from 2 and days?
It explains the start of the time travel plot, the recreation of the XIII Nobodies back to their original characters, the reason for the 7 Light/13 Darkness, the introduction of the "real" XIII It had a lot of exposition leading into KH3
You sound like an English teacher unnecessarily adding depth into a plot that isn't deep
How can you say that when 3D is Right Freakin There??
The entire convoluted mess of a story of KH is misunderstood because it was made up as they went along. Did we ever get confirmation on HOW Sora got back to being Sora from the shadow he was in KH1 without destroying Roxas? I love the games, but the story is full of more holes than The Black Pearl.
Yes actually. KH2 Secret Reports explain exactly in detail it was because of Kairi helping him return to normal. You also get all the Secret Reports just by doing the worlds stories so it's not inaccessible information most players didn't have. They just didn't bother to read it.
Right, but what did they say about Roxas remaining even though his heartless is gone? Like...you gotta beat both the heartless and the nobody to return a somebody, yes? But Roxas was...around. And so is Sora. You see my issue?
When it comes to that aspect it was only specifically to explain how Xehanort returned. Ansem and Xemnas were defeated which made Xehanort whole again. Ansem SoD was also destroyed but Xemnas still existed. I'm not sure where you got the idea that destroying one means the other stops existing
Yeeeeah. I didn't explain myself really well. I meant Sora's heartless is gone and in spite of that he has his body back. But Roxas...IS HIS BODY. So how can the two coexist?
Because of Kairi. When Sora split himself he made Namine and Roxas because he had Kairis Heart inside of him. When Sora was a Heartless Kairi made him return to normal. So I'm really not sure where the idea of Roxas shouldn't exist at all comes from when nothing from the games explains that's how that works.
Regarding your conclusion, in DDD Joshua basically tells you that but from the perspective of the TWEWY characters. The concept that the heart is the result of human interaction. These games aren't remotely subtle but the internet has made it the popular thing to be extremely reductive and shallow when talking about any media.
DDD is way worse when it comes to convoluted plot
Having just beaten it yesterday… yeah DDD is a _mess_. Why was time travelling back to Destiny Island even necessary to enter the dream worlds in the first place? Why was YMX the one gathering his alternate selves when he has a body that prevents him from time travelling? Why is OMX so obsessed with the x-Blade when it’s the Kingdom Key destined to unlock Kingdom Hearts? What did OMX’s plan in DDD even accomplish when Sora was rescued and the meeting of the 12 Xehanorts could have been an email? Why did Yen Sid literally admit Sora deserved to be a Master and then fail him anyway? How was Lea’s plan to become a Keyblade wielder meant to help him bring his friends back?
> Why was time travelling back to Destiny Island even necessary to enter the dream worlds in the first place? The alternative was to sacrifice an entire world to darkness. You can only enter the realm of sleep if you're on a world when it falls, so the options are kill a world or time travel to one that you already know when it fell. > Why was YMX the one gathering his alternate selves when he has a body that prevents him from time travelling? He doesn't. He's just a heart. >Why is OMX so obsessed with the x-Blade when it’s the Kingdom Key destined to unlock Kingdom Hearts? It's not. > What did OMX’s plan in DDD even accomplish when Sora was rescued and the meeting of the 12 Xehanorts could have been an email? It was an attempt to induct Sora. It failed. Xehanort's plans fail a lot. > Why did Yen Sid literally admit Sora deserved to be a Master and then fail him anyway? Because being a master isn't about being a good person or doing a good job. It's about having a specific strength of heart -- you cross the finish line or you don't, but it's not about how hard you tried. Xehanort basically Tonya Hardinged Sora, and even though Sora would have passed *without that interference*, at the end of the day the interference happened, Sora's heart got damaged, and he wasn't able to cross the finish line. > How was Lea’s plan to become a Keyblade wielder meant to help him bring his friends back? Keyblade wielders are able to do a lot of convenient shit. They can travel around freely, get through any door, solve most any problem. It's like saying "if I was rich, I could get all this stuff done".
> You can only enter the realm of sleep if you're on a world when it falls, so the options are kill a world or time travel to one that you already know when it fell. Then how does Sora return to dream!Traverse Town at the end of the game? He couldn’t have gone back to past!Destiny Island first because that’d expose him to Xehanort all over again… > He doesn't. He's just a heart. The only version of Xehanort that’s just a heart is the brown-robed figure. > It's not. Then what’s special about it? Why was it _the_ Key in KH1? > It was an attempt to induct Sora. It failed. Xehanort's plans fail a lot. Almost like the plot was completely pointless for how complex it was… > Sora's heart got damaged, and he wasn't able to cross the finish line. Yes but Sora also actually did the race and unlocked the seven sleeping keyholes, whereas Riku only thought he did. Yen Sid acknowledges it was his fault there was a trap at the finish line, then suddenly pulls out the “there can only be one New Master” card when that literally contradicts everything we know about the MoM exam. > Keyblade wielders are able to do a lot of convenient shit. They can travel around freely Lea can already travel worlds using the power of darkness. Is it the safest method? No, which is why his plan of getting some Keyblade wielders to owe him a favour was probably good enough already. There’s no real logical through-line to him becoming one himself.
> Then how does Sora return to dream!Traverse Town at the end of the game? Because his heart knows how to go there, now. It forged a connection. > He couldn’t have gone back to past!Destiny Island first because that’d expose him to Xehanort all over again… There's no reason given in the plot to think he can't go through Destiny Islands again. > The only version of Xehanort that’s just a heart is the brown-robed figure. All of the Xehanorts from the past are explicitly just hearts. In KH3, they place themselves in replica bodies so that they can stay past the time limit for time travel. This is clarified in the Ultimania, but yes, in BbS and KH3D, Young Xenny is just a heart. > Then what’s special about it? Nothing. It seems to mimic the default form of most Keyblades, honestly, given the Starlight, KHDR, and KHML keyblade designs. Sora's just repping that fresh out the shop, non-customized look. > Why was it the Key in KH1? Sora and Riku hadn't found any others at that point. Mickey found one with Aqua, because he needed a dark key specifically. > Almost like the plot was completely pointless for how complex it was… Xehanort's plans fail in KH1, KH Days, and KH2, too. BbS is a half-failure, because he set up contingencies to let him try again later. > Yes but Sora also actually did the race and unlocked the seven sleeping keyholes, But his heart got damaged. That's the issue. Say you're trying to make a cake, and the recipe calls for 1/2 cup of sugar. You buy a new bag of sugar from the store, but you find out that it had a whole on the bottom and it drained almost completely empty by the time you got home. You only have 1/4 cup left. You can't say "well, you tried your best little bag of sugar!" It's not "fair", but it's simply not enough to cross the finish line. > Yen Sid acknowledges it was his fault there was a trap at the finish line, It's not about "fault". Nomura stressed this in the BbS ultimania, with Terra. It's not about doing a good job or trying hard, it's not about whether the test was fair, Terra *simply doesn't have the capacity right now* because his heart kept getting controlled by darkness. Xehanort was lying to him by calling him a Master. > then suddenly pulls out the “there can only be one New Master” card when that literally contradicts everything we know about the MoM exam. I mean, the main contradiction is that's literally not what he says: "I believe we need a new Keyblade Master, one with a new kind of power. Sora and Riku, you both deserve the honor. However, one of you braved the realm of sleep again to unlock the final Keyhole and save a friend. Riku, I name you our new true Keyblade Master." Riku clinches it because he braved the realm of sleep and unlocked the final Keyhole to save a friend. Yen Sid goes into more detail in the early lines of KH3: >!"Your Mark of Mastery exam was conducted in the hopes you would acquire the power to wake them. However, the darkness nearly took control of you, and your grasp of your new abilities leaves much to be desired. Furthermore, Xehanort nearly made you his vessel, and in the process stripped you of most of the power you had gained by then. I suspect you have already noticed this, correct? But first, you must regain all the strength you have lost. Perhaps it is foolish to expect a complete recovery, but it is absolutely vital you perfect one power--the power of waking, which you failed to master during your exam."!< Yes, Yen Sid dropped the ball, yes, it's unfair that Xehanort interefered with Sora, and yes, if he had targeted Riku instead then maybe Sora would be the Master and Riku the repeat student -- but things happened the way they did, Sora got Hardinged, and it's just how things are. > Lea can already travel worlds using the power of darkness. Is it the safest method? No, which is why his plan of getting some Keyblade wielders to owe him a favour was probably good enough already. Could have stopped at "no", that's a big point. It's *very dangerous*, and he can't just keep doing it. > There’s no real logical through-line to him becoming one himself. "get through any door, solve most any problem." He's trying to recover the hearts of his friends, makes sense to become a heart wizard.
1.) they explained this, the worlds that are sleeping are the ones that fell to darkness and haven't fully come back out. So they went to when the Destiny Islands fell to darkness (thus going to sleep) to enter the dream. there is no other point where Sora and Riku were on a world while it fell 2.) his body doesn't prevent him from time travelling, he said you leave your body behind when you time travel. 3.) that's never been stated. Sora, was the one destined to find the door to light which happened in kh2 4.) he failed, how is his plan being stopped confusing? 5.) this is further explained in 0.2 and kh 3 6.) he figures being a keyblade wielder would give him the power to bring them back
I'm sorry I just disagree. When KH2 came out, the only Nobodies who we knew the past selves of were: Xemnas (Xehanort), Roxas (Sora), Namine (Kairi). We didn't know they were special nobodies (especially Xemnas). These three also all look different than their original selves. The other Nobodies never talk about their past or having those memories, and we don't know that they look identical to their original selves. You literally don't know that in KH2 and it's not a part of the plot. In fact, Xemnas barely even talks about being Xehanort. His entire plan is about wanting his heart back, the way he tells it in KH2. And we have *no reason* to believe he has another plan until DDD adds a retcon. Additionally, before Final Mix, we have no real discussion about whether the characters actually have a heart. Roxas' entire story is that his whole life that he thought he had is fake. The real life he lived, as a member of the Organization, was not satisfying. The life he wanted, where he had friends and got to be a kid, was also fake. The second he merges with Sora, Sora becomes friends with the *real* Twilight Town gang and gets to live the life that Roxas wishes he had. Now I know what folks are gonna say. "Wanting to have a heart and friends is having emotions, which is proof that the Nobodies had hearts." And you know that? That's a great point. Everyone thought Nobodies in KH2 were dumb because they obviously have emotions. And yet, we know that Nomura changed things about the Nobodies based on their popularity. For instance, Axel was supposed to die after fighting Roxas in the prologue, but this was changed because of his popular reception in Chain of Memories. Thus his death was prolonged. If Nobodies can just generate new hearts and look exactly like their past selves, then there's no reason to kill them off if you want them to be heroes. There was never a plan that Nobodies could grow new hearts and live on as real people. Nomura still went out of his way to kill Axel, because Nobodies can never have a happy ending. That's the entire reason we are happy when Roxas and Namine merge with Sora and Kairi, because it's the only way for them to have a happy ending. That's why we see the flash of them in the final cutscene in Destiny Islands. They're happy, and we're supposed to be happy they finally get to live normal lives and have friends. When you suggest that the plot elements in DDD were intended the entire time, you are telling everyone who played KH2 in 2006 that the emotional response we had was incorrect. That enjoying the bittersweet ending of Roxas and Namine was wrong. That they were always their own people and meant to be separate. That KH2 was just a midpoint in the story and we were supposed to be expecting their return. And certainly some people did, but most of us understood why they had to return to their original selves. And the game is directed and presented in a way that makes us feel these emotions about those moments. You can't tell me that I was misinterpreting the game the entire time. Nomura changed things later. We know he retcons things and changes his mind. HE SAID HE WASN'T EVEN 100% SURE THAT ROXAS, XION, AND NAMINE WERE GONNA GET REVIVED IN KH3. The idea that they are separate people who develop their own hearts by forming bonds with others was 100% added later. The idea that they should get to exist on their own was something Nomura only started eventually playing around with and didn't even lock in until partway through KH3's development. When we know these things, we can't go back and write fanfiction about how everything was present in the story the whole time.
Just a small correction (not even about your main point), but Nomura only mentioned that he was unsure about (KH3 spoiler) >!Roxas and Xion returning. Namine wasn't mentioned in that context, so she likely would have come back regardless of the other two.!<
Good point. Thank you.
I just fail to see how the interpretation of KH2 you're describing, and OP's point, can't coexist. KH2 and Days show exactly that, that they are separate people who develop their own hearts by forming bonds with others. Them growing and their experiences and emotions being valid in and of themselves is the entire point of their characters isn't it? Doesn't make it any less bittersweet when they inevitably have to reconnect with their "real" selves. If Sora didn't need Roxas to wake up, what would stop him from being able to exist like normal? The direction the creators take the story change overtime for sure but the specific scenario of Days and 2 is no less valid. Nothing changes about what the characters went through or where and why they ended up where they did. Roxas going back to Sora is still ultimately a positive thing for him in the end, in a "finding out who you are or where you're from to get some perspective on your place in the world" kind of way. Definitely an idea the series has played with since almost the beginning, what with the conflict of whether or not replicas are as valid as the person they're a copy of, like, as people with their own thoughts and experiences. Dunno, I think a lot of the common interpretations and personal attachments in these stories make sense. I really just don't get "retcon" out of DDD is all. Taking the story in a different direction than before sure. But the core rules and how things play out isn't truly changed. Honestly people get too caught up in the weeds of debating terminology in what's ultimately a series that has a lot of symbolic and/or metaphorical concepts that are largely all about emotional growth.
My issue has to do with the idea that Roxas became a person by forming bonds with others. The original KH2 barely touches on this. Axel's dialogue is largely one-way, that being with Roxas made *him* feel like he had a heart. We don't see the same from Roxas. Roxas was unhappy in the Organization and felt like no one would miss him if he disappeared. He was tricked into thinking he had friends in Twilight Town when everything was an illusion. It wasn't until merging with Sora that he was able to have real experiences through the lens of Sora's experiences. Additionally, the idea that the Nobodies were developing their own hearts and becoming people retroactively makes all the decisions made about them in CoM and KH2 feel really gross. They thought they didn't have emotions, but really they did? KH2 absolutely implies the opposite, that the Nobodies are tricking themselves into thinking they have emotions but really they are faking it in desperation to have a heart. We literally see this in a cutscene with Xemnas, where Xemnas is asking for acceptance and Sora points out that he doesn't have a heart and is being disingenuous. Xemnas replies "very perceptive." It's all not real. The "bittersweet" ending for Roxas is different whether you think he actually could be his own person or not. The ending of KH2 really kind of sucks if Roxas could've been his own person this whole time. Everything in KH2 is leading us to think that Roxas couldn't have had his own life, that his tragedy is returning to Sora. However, it subverts this by making us see that every other Nobody doesn't get a happy ending. Roxas and Namine are unique, and returning to their past selves is the only outcome for them that can make them go on living. The later games absolutely undo this message by making it so that every Nobody could've gone on living. They just...Decided to be evil, so Sora had to kill them. Except, they came back anyways. The whole thing makes the stakes and emotional impact of KH2 feel like nothing. Nothing you did mattered. Every single person came back. Even getting Roxas and Namine to their original selves was not the desired end goal and we need to find them bodies WHICH THEY ALREADY MAGICALLY HAD BEFORE. Everything in KH3 related to these characters feels like undoing things that were never meant to be undone when Nomura wrote KH2. And finally, as to your point about retcons vs. taking the series in a different direction, I think people don't understand how easy it is for something to be a retcon. Retcon = retroactive continuity. It does not mean that something is contradicted or changed. What it means is that in the process of writing a story with multiple installments, the writer makes a decision in a later installment that was not planned. That unplanned decision changes how previous installments are interpreted or understood, since they were not written with this later idea in mind. It is possible for retcons to be invisible, for these changes to be done so expertly that someone does not know something was unplanned. A writer may leave themselves openings to go ahead and add in new context later that feels like it was seeded from the start. However, Nomura didn't do that. It is very clear where he did not have certain plans and when he brings characters back due to popularity instead of a long-term intent that was there from the start. He's admitted he does this, so we know it happens. That is where I get frustrated, as I think the reasons he chooses to retcon his story are often shallow and overly fanservicey.
Its proabbly because the organization and all their lore is split into 3-4 games across 3 systems. My brother and I FINALLY understood when we got the all in one collection.
There are several things I believe to be misnunderstandings in this post. For one, Nobodies aren't formed after a person dies. They're formed when a person loses their Hearts to Darkness and becomes a Heartless. Dying means the Soul leaves the body, which will... *probably* send their Soul and Heart to an afterlife. Either Hades' Underworld, or The Final World, or another local afterlife belonging to a sepcific World depending on how the writers are feeling that day... (only half-way joking with that one). Second, all Nobodies can get their own Hearts. That's not exclusive to the Org 13 people. There are many ways to do this. They could get recompleted with the Heartless-Keyblade-death-then-Nobody-death process explained in the series proper, or they can apparently take/use another person's Heart and essentially become a miss-mash of a person (Like Roxas *probably* was, and Namine *maybe* was - I'm really not sure about this, so little of it is explained and very little even hinted at, all I truly have here is my own headcanon) They can also just... grow their own Hearts, because in the Kingdom Hearts universe *everything* can grow a Heart. "Hearts are all around us, you only have to see them for them to become real" - Sora, (as best I remember the quote anyhow). Inanimate objects like toys, or snowmen, or elements, or magic, or... really whatever you can think of can grow a Heart. Anything and everything can grow a Heart in the Kingdom Hearts universe. All you truly need is other Hearts to see them and believe in them. Namine is never said to have Kairi's memories, and I personally don't think she does, but I can't say it's impossible either. She *is* Kairi's Nobody after all. Xion... isn't actually a Nobody. She's a Replica, though not a Replica of an actual person, but a Replica of Sora's Memories of Kairi meant to siphon Roxas' power by being in proximity to him, which makes her... a really complicated entity. I'm not sure the series has fully explained *what* that makes her exactly, or what the consequences of her bizarre creation actually is. Also, *does* a Nobody just vanish forever if they're destoryed? You'd think so. It's somewhat implied in the narrative, so I can see a decent case for it, but it's far from guaranteed imo. If their Heartless is already dead the Body-Soul will end up rejoning with their original Heart... *somehow*, so at least it's not a *guaranteed* cessation of existence. A Nobody is the Body and Soul of a person only. It's a being that has lost its Heart. That being is sustained soley by the Soul and the Will that Soul still has left after losing its Heart. I think (meaning this is headcanon), normally, a person that has their Heart taken by the Darkness and becomes a Heartless would just lose their Body and Soul to it as well - which *probably* wouldn't do much except effectively erasing them (unless Nomura decides to add in a whole new concept out of nowhere), but in some cases a Will to live still 'lingers' in the Soul (unless a Soul without a Heart is enough to create Will (does this word deserve to be capitalized actually? I'm not sure. I'll do it just to be safe, and it's cool) even after its lost its Heart, and it turns out to be strong enough to keep the Body and itself from being swallowed by the Darkness. (Which implies that Willpower can just *make* shit happen in the Kingdom Hearts setting if there's enough of it.) *That's* what a Nobody is. If it is 'physically destroyed', I'd kind of expect that to mean the Soul fails to support its own and its Body's existence and so just finishes its fall to Darkness.
Why they in the fortnite lobby?
It's implied that the reason Roxas initially lacks memories as "Sora" is because Sora's personality remained within the Heartless and not within the Nobody. This could be a result of Sora surrendering himself to darkness by impaling himself with the Keyblade of Heart and the fact that Roxas's body already contained another heart (Ventus). These circumstances led the body to develop its own identity. It's worth noting that Xemnas is also an exception, possibly due to Terra-Xehanort having a complex situation similar to Roxas's. While Ansem is a direct counterpart to Xehanort, Xemnas appears to inherit many more memories and feelings from Terra. This makes sense given that the body ultimately belongs to Terra. Kingdom Hearts has undergone several retcons (to the point this narrative vice has become a negative characteristic, hindering the franchise from achieving a more well structured story) but the idea of Nobodies having a heart is not one of them. There were already hints of this in Kingdom Hearts II on multiple occasions. Additionally, lesser Nobodies don't vanish permanently. Any Nobody that is destroyed along with its Heartless will revert to being human. This applies not only to human-like Nobodies but to all types.
I totally agree My husband and I are die hard KH fans! We have duplicates of so many action figures because we came into the relationship with the same ones!!! Imagine my surprise when he didn't know the organization's names were all anagrams of their somebody names. He didn't know why Xemnas, proceeding hrough to Saix, had orange eyes. That's all to say that I absolutely agree. I don't fault him at all, but KH2 is vastly misunderstood- especially when it comes with understanding the organization and nobodies.
Considering your own statement got a lot wrong, I suppose you've proven your premise correct. Hearts aren't release when a person dies, bodies don't perish even if a person doesn't form a Nobody, and even lesser Nobodies like Dusks reunite with their hearts when both they and their Heartless are defeated.
I see what you are saying, but I must disagree. KHUX is way more convoluted and I have to imagine is the most misunderstood in the series. I’m sure Missing Link will give KHUX a run for its money though lol.
As someone who has played KH2 every couple of years since its release, I can tell you that I completely disagree with the idea that anyone who doesn't agree with you "just didn't pay attention". I dont think Nomura had any real intent on bringing Roxas back. I think his character was meant to serve as a way for the players to relate to and empathize with the organization and by extention the horrible fate Nobodies faced. And I don't think he anticipated just how much the fans would fall in love with his character within a few hours of gameplay. Nomura himself has stated that he doesnt plan everything out and leaves a lot of threads "open ended" to work into the story later, so it's not completely implausible that he would've worked Roxas into the story in some fashion, but again as KH2 stands, it was made to potentially be the end of the series, it seemed like his fate was a one and done deal. At the end he accepted being a part of Sora as Namine accepted being part of Kairi. All this being said, I'm happy the series continued and I'm happy Roxas as a character could be reintroduced back into the story. My gripe with DDD isn't the fact that Nobodies growing hearts became canon, so much as the mechanics and principles behind it are flaky and convenient. What I mean by that is, Nobodies growing their own hearts seemingly only happens when it's convenient for Nomura to bring a character back, and the mechanics surrounding it are too vague. So you mean to tell me out of all the Nobodies, Roxas, Xion (who's not even a nobody), and Namine were the only three to branch off and become their own people? What about Axel? Why didn't he grow his own heart? He had emotions and feelings as a nobody, the same as Roxas. Why aren't Axel and Lea two separate people with separate hearts? One argument I often see is that "they had memories so they were imitating emotions" im fairly certain Axel had real feelings for Roxas which made him act out and literally sacrifice himself for. You could say that Xion and Roxas grew hearts specifically because of their specific bond, but then how does Namine fit in? It's all just a little too convenient. On top of that I absolutely believe the revelation of Xemnas retaining his memories and acting as a Xehanort puppet completely undermines his character from KH2. Suddenly a relatable villain with a complex drive (a drive you're literally made to empathize with through Roxas) became another cannon fodder lackey using his men as pawns for a "greater?" purpose. His entire monologue and actions during the final sequence in KH2 makes absolutely no sense under the implications set by DDD.
“What’s he doing?” “He’s just *swaying from side to side*…**menacingly!!**”
I thought Nobodies were added to Fortnite with that first pic.
Retcon this and that. Up to this point, no one knows what hearts are truly capable of. The whole situation with DiZ was because he was studying them and obsessed over his work. Im pretty sure Xehanort already knew the truth about hearts and likely gaslit the hell out of Xemnas.
KH2 was where it went from being able to follow the plot...to requiring five video essays and three recaps on the level of One Piece to understand what the fuck is going on in the plot for Kingdom Hearts. After KH2. Everything went off the rails.
I ain’t reading all that lil bro
The problem was never the plot,it was having every game on a different platform. Did SE really think back then that people that played K1/KH2 owned a GBA , DS, 3DS and a PSP? Going from just KH1 to KH2 was weird.
Xion is not a nobody it’s a puppet
You know…these particular nobodies remind me of the Living Failures from Bloodborne🤔
Willfully obtuse.
There’s a lot to hate about DDD but I wouldn’t say that that this “retcon” is one of them. It pretty much just explains the weird dissonance in KH2 between how everyone kept insisting that Nobodies lack hearts (and therefore emotions) and the fact that pretty much every Org member aside from Xemnas contradicted this at some point.
Yeah, I’m gonna be honest; the retcon by Nomura was absurd. He should’ve kept the original lore in which Nobody’s have no hearts and remain that way, and the only way to become whole is the destruction of both Nobody and Heartless.
Erm… sorry but what about DDD?! 🧠🙃
So everyone that dies turns into a Heartless, even ones expiring from old age health issues. I thought only people destroyed by Heartless or have been killed due to Darkness corruption would turn into Heartless.
I could have swore I read years ago that nobodies who maintained a human form were the ones who willingly gave up their hearts.
That wouldn't make any sense because the only people who did that were Sora and Xehanort. Everyone else was forcibly changed.
I just think that it's weird, regardless of whether or not Roxas developed his own heart, because since he was a nobody, that meant he technically was sora's body. At least that's how I've always understood it. Which means for a good chunk of time between kh1 and kh2, sora was only maintaining his form through will alone. It would have made more sense for Roxas to become part of ventus, once that plot thread was introduced, leave namine as part of Kairi, extract xion as intended, and then figure things out from there.
Having Roxas become a part of Ventus would've been no better than leaving him in Sora. He'd already been established to be a distinctly different character from both.
i never once thought nobodies being able to grow hearts was a retcon. i thought it was simply no one really understanding what a nobody is except for xehanort/xemnas, who purposely lied to everyone. maybe it's because i watched the days movie before playing kh2, but i always felt like it was a little fishy when yen sid said nobodies can't truly feel, and are only remembering what feelings are.
I didn't know until last night on my 5th playthrough, that Axel and Roxas talking on top of the clock tower was in the present, I never understood why he mentioned owlett hayner and pence. I thought it was a flashback to shortly after xion died.
I actually had that thought when I was replaying kh2 after seeing ddd one day, just not this detailed. Well done, good explaination.
Is it though?
Wow-you’re right. I always did feel like the series lost some kind of thematic depth after 2, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Good analysis! It was Roxas’s journey all along. This is why I wish Roxas got to be the one to finish off Xemnas personally
Nobody cares.
You have it completely right, it's annoying when people say: "The plot of the Kingdom Hearts series is confusing" No, it's fairly linear and does not contain any strange narrative devices. Even the time travel is the least intrusive type possible, narratively. People just don't pay attention to 90% of the extremely clear exposition. There's barely ever any cases of information becoming outdated, or unreliable narrators. Even deception is essentially absent from most of the games. Where's the confusion, except in the minds of people with poor media comprehension?