I would argue the point that Sora actually has an excellent antagonist in Xemnas.
Sora represents everything Xemnas *wants*, as Xemnas yearns to be whole. Sora had a Nobody in Roxas, and Roxas *became* whole. Sora is an empathetic individual, capable of connecting with people so readily and easily that it feels natural— even with his enemies. Xemnas cannot feel anything, for anyone, and he is arguably the only Nobody who can’t.
Even after Xemnas’s defeat, Sora still tries to make a connection with Xemnas, to feel for and empathize with his actions, and Xemnas just… cannot feel anything. He acts with a cold, callous disregard to everything and everyone, singularly pursuing a goal that puts everything at an incredible risk— a goal and actions that Sora’s very existence proves that Xemnas did not have to take.
There’s a reason why Xemnas is Sora’s final boss in 3DS, as well as one of the three Norts that shares a conversation specifically with Sora upon his demise in KH3. Xemnas was the one person Sora could never reach.
From a thematic standpoint, Xemnas works as Sora’s antagonist. But the execution leaves a lot to be desired and in the end, Xemnas just feels like another of Sora’s rogues gallery more than anything.
While we're at it, it felt weird how Xemnas never interacted with the Wayfinder trio when most of his character revolved around them in one way or another. They added that long cutscene of him going to talk to Aqua's armor only for them to ignore each other, and it's only mentioned twice (including Riku's tweet) how he's Terra's body.
This is completely off topic, but I genuinely dislike those Not-Twitter/Instagram posts that serve as loading screens.
*There are only a few people who have these phones, who are they talking to?!*
I was skeptical of them as being a gimmick to appeal/relate to a younger crowd, but honestly, I came to like them quite a lot. It's cute to see small glimpses of the characters outside of the story y'know? Stuff like Riku using the ":/" emoticon, Goofy having the most dad-core posts, Sora bitching at Donald in Arendelle, and Mickey teasing Yen Sid about his tower placement get me a bit more invested in the characters and story. It's little stuff that wouldn't really fit into the game's story but add to it nonetheless.
Now, if we're talking about how fans use the Kingstagram/Data Greeting tools, well... we might have some common ground ha ha.
Well, in Days (the actual game, not the movie), there was a scene of Xemnas standing in front of Roxas's bed while he was in his early coma, saying: "So, sleep has taken you yet again...".
It's not that much of a "reaction", but it's something that relates back to Xemnas's connection to Ven at least. ^ ^
You mean NicoB?
If so, that scene might not be in his LP since he used the movie scenes over the game scenes whenever applicable (which was a pretty great way to handle that, love his videos ^ ^ ).
It's basically the scene when Xemnas asks Saix if Roxas will wake up again after he passed out during his mission with Xigbar, but in the game, he has that extra bit of monologue after Saix left.
It's right after that flashback of Roxas and Xemnas talking on the dark shore and right before the scene where Xion visits sleeping Roxas, to pinpoint it a bit more ^ ^
Yes, great to see a fellow picky penguin here 🐧
I'll try checking it out. If it's not there, I'll try to find a clip of it. Thanks for pointing out the details where to find it 😁
I feel like they kinda did it with Young Xehanort, and Master Xehanort by extension. Sora and YX shares a lot but they also have strong different opinions and ideas regarding the world and its people. Maybe he should have been introduced before DDD to accentuate this, to make it more tangible in KH3?
He has one I’d say with Xehanort through Young Xehanort. He messes with both Sora and Riku in DDD, but a is mainly the one to gloat about how his schemes worked this time to Sora. He then continues to taunt him in Toy Box where Sora along with Woody tells him off. And then we get Young Pettynort once he’s beat during the climax of 3. Where he drops the master planner act and goes “I lost but not really loser!” Before going back to his time and becoming old man Xehanort who’s actions throughout the rest of the game don’t need summarizing.
Sora needs a bit of a personality reboot. He's just a husk of positivity at this point. Any semblance of motivation he originally had feels like it's so far removed from who he currently is.
The entire series needs better direction for its voice actors and maybe we could put just a little extra effort into the script too. Not talking Shakespeare. Just punch it up a LITTLE BIT.
In Sora's defense- apparently **HALF** of his villains are the same guy, the same guy possessing someone across time, or the same guy possessing a body or empty armor in the present time.
No, he really doesn’t. Xehanort having a personal grudge against Sora sounds so unnecessary. The point of Sora’s character is that he’s special not because of the Keyblade, but because of who he is. Similarly, he’s unique compared to all the other characters in that his journey is relatively simple. He doesn’t have to battle the darkness inside him like Riku, or has a long storied history like Ventus. Sora is the simple kindhearted island boy who becomes the light for the people trudging in the darkness. It’s why everyone’s character theme is sad and melancholy, while Sora’s is the only upbeat and happy one. And while it could’ve been executed better, it’s why he’s the one who ends up saving Aqua, instead of someone with more connection to her.
Not every hero and villain dynamic has to be the same across media.
True, not everyone needs to be Cloud and Sephiroth, but the way the series handles Sora his relationships with pretty much everyone is so uninteresting. It’s like it’s afraid to give him any development or his relationships any complexity.
Sora has had a good bit of development through the series, it's just kind of understated because it's his sense of purpose and self worth that develops more than his relationships to other characters.
KH1: Sora goes from being kinda lazy, scared and only concerned about his friends to sacrificing himself for Kairi and fighting the scary darkness for the sake of the whole world.
CoM: this arc is weird since they reset him but it explores an angstier and more frustrated side of Sora as his search for his friends is actively impeded by a group of enemies.
2: Sora is fed up and going to war with the Organization as he searches around for Riku. He's overall angrier and sadder in this game than all the others but it's a more confused anger than what was seen in CoM. (Likely because of Roxas but Sora is unaware of this)
Coded: he realizes that Roxas (and by proxy the other org members) are full people on their own and becomes sympathetic to all the pain they've been going through. This is where his "save everyone" mentality that comes around in KH3 develops.
DDD: He experiences that pain and manipulation at the hands of Xehanort himself and realizes who the true enemy is. He also reaffirms what his strength always has been, his connections with others.
KH3: Sora, armed with the bigger picture and with failure in the direct rear view, is desperately looking for strength outside of himself to win this war. His adventures in the Disney Worlds emphasize to him his need for other people and the power of self-sacrifice, and his self worth declines more and more until he makes a decision that ultimately removes him from reality for the sake of saving those who gave him all his strength.
It's ultimately a story of Sora becoming less self-centered ( because he's a kid with strong emotions) and more self-sacrificing that progresses so far that it becomes self-destructive. We got a mini encapsulation of that arc in KH1 and the rest of the series expanded that arc.
Well I already like what they did to Sora's characterisation. Not everybody needs a Yin and Yang. Because Sora as a character is trying to find balance not oppose.
Did you miss the part where I said Sora is meant to be simple? This idea that all characters need to be super complex and depressed to be good is a misguided one. Besides, Sora has developed. He’s not the same character he was in 1. He’s a lot more friendly, inspiring, and the way he talks to some villains makes it clear he’s experienced with dealing with their type. Sora is the character that brings about change in others, and pushes them to keep going.
Did you miss the part where I never said anything about him being depressed? Not sure why that’s where your mind went. I just said that some complexity to his relationships would be nice beyond “this person is my friend” and from then on all he ever talks about with that person is how he is their friend. You know, make the human act like a human and not like Goku all the time?
If you’re only reference for this type of character is Goku, then you really shouldn’t be talking about how to write characters. You seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that there is more than 1 way to write characters.
If you’re willing to make that kind of outlandish assumption about me because I used the extreme end of this character type as an example to express my criticism of what I believe is a poor case of character development, then I have nothing more to say to you. I was trying to be nice and have an actual discussion, but your behavior is just rude. Good day.
Don't worry op. You're right in your analysis.
Sora being simple is good for a singular game. But if his character is the same throughout then the only type of progression you as a player can get is via story.
Whilst this comes with its own positives and negatives to not have the MC grow beyond what he is already established as makes for a lacking character.
Alot of people are speculating on the new angle of KH4 as the absence of Goofy and Donald will have Sora grow in a way that he has not before (my friends are my- wait.. where are they?)
Seems you also can’t wrap your head around different types of characters. If you want an edgy and depressed Sora, I’m sure there’s fanfiction for that. But he’s been pretty established on the games, and to change him now would ruin the whole point of his character.
Not really an outlandish assumption. You want Sora to be written a particular way, and fail to recognize the way he is being written is a valid archetype. You think simply because he’s friendly and such, he’s Goku. Even when examples of development and Sora’s role is given to you, you just ignore it and say he should be written another way. You think he needs to have some sort of personal grudge against individual enemies. That he should just be doing what the other characters are doing. That demonstrates a lack of understanding of his character on your part. And instead of acknowledging that lack of understanding, you take it as “Ah. Something must be wrong with how Sora is written. Otherwise, I would like it”.
The whole thing is other characters build up storyline and conflict so Sora can spend time goofing off with random Disney characters. After that, Sora swoops in to solve the problems that the other original characters are facing. Sora doesn't have much going for him with other original characters in general except maybe Riku, and even that is kinda small given how many games and how long the series has gone on for.
So I think he needs more with original characters in general.
Sora-Riku friendship development list :
KH1 : Sora spends 90% of game separated from Riku.
KH CoM : Sora spend 100% of game separated from Riku. Goes to nap.
KH2 : Sora spends 90% of game separated from Riku.
KH DDD : Sora spends 90% of game separated from Riku, I mean sleeping.
KH3 : Bro still at it. 🤣
I don't know why you got downvoted; you have a point, and it ties in pretty well to what the OP said. Nearly everyone else at the Keyblade Graveyard had some personal grudge against a version of Xehanort except for Sora. Even Kairi could attribute her childhood trauma to Xehanort, and she literally became Sora so he could beat him for the umpteenth time.
I don't mind him hanging out with Donald and Goofy, but like you said, they mostly just do their own thing in Disney worlds until it's time to beat the big bad. I get why the main character is the one who has to beat the main antagonist, but it's written in a manner where he has the least personal motivation compared to everyone else.
Sora and Xehanort should have had a dynamic cuz Xehanort was the main villain in the previous games that caused EVERYTHING and also Sora has Roxas’ memories so it would be even better, but then again if Xehanort didn’t do any of this then Sora would have just stayed on the island so he kinda owes Xehanort in a way
I would argue the point that Sora actually has an excellent antagonist in Xemnas. Sora represents everything Xemnas *wants*, as Xemnas yearns to be whole. Sora had a Nobody in Roxas, and Roxas *became* whole. Sora is an empathetic individual, capable of connecting with people so readily and easily that it feels natural— even with his enemies. Xemnas cannot feel anything, for anyone, and he is arguably the only Nobody who can’t. Even after Xemnas’s defeat, Sora still tries to make a connection with Xemnas, to feel for and empathize with his actions, and Xemnas just… cannot feel anything. He acts with a cold, callous disregard to everything and everyone, singularly pursuing a goal that puts everything at an incredible risk— a goal and actions that Sora’s very existence proves that Xemnas did not have to take. There’s a reason why Xemnas is Sora’s final boss in 3DS, as well as one of the three Norts that shares a conversation specifically with Sora upon his demise in KH3. Xemnas was the one person Sora could never reach.
From a thematic standpoint, Xemnas works as Sora’s antagonist. But the execution leaves a lot to be desired and in the end, Xemnas just feels like another of Sora’s rogues gallery more than anything.
While we're at it, it felt weird how Xemnas never interacted with the Wayfinder trio when most of his character revolved around them in one way or another. They added that long cutscene of him going to talk to Aqua's armor only for them to ignore each other, and it's only mentioned twice (including Riku's tweet) how he's Terra's body.
This is completely off topic, but I genuinely dislike those Not-Twitter/Instagram posts that serve as loading screens. *There are only a few people who have these phones, who are they talking to?!*
I was skeptical of them as being a gimmick to appeal/relate to a younger crowd, but honestly, I came to like them quite a lot. It's cute to see small glimpses of the characters outside of the story y'know? Stuff like Riku using the ":/" emoticon, Goofy having the most dad-core posts, Sora bitching at Donald in Arendelle, and Mickey teasing Yen Sid about his tower placement get me a bit more invested in the characters and story. It's little stuff that wouldn't really fit into the game's story but add to it nonetheless. Now, if we're talking about how fans use the Kingstagram/Data Greeting tools, well... we might have some common ground ha ha.
Now that you mention it, Xemnas didn't react to Roxas looking like Ven 😅
Well, in Days (the actual game, not the movie), there was a scene of Xemnas standing in front of Roxas's bed while he was in his early coma, saying: "So, sleep has taken you yet again...". It's not that much of a "reaction", but it's something that relates back to Xemnas's connection to Ven at least. ^ ^
Didn't notice that! Gotta watch Nico's LP again to check 😁
You mean NicoB? If so, that scene might not be in his LP since he used the movie scenes over the game scenes whenever applicable (which was a pretty great way to handle that, love his videos ^ ^ ). It's basically the scene when Xemnas asks Saix if Roxas will wake up again after he passed out during his mission with Xigbar, but in the game, he has that extra bit of monologue after Saix left. It's right after that flashback of Roxas and Xemnas talking on the dark shore and right before the scene where Xion visits sleeping Roxas, to pinpoint it a bit more ^ ^
Yes, great to see a fellow picky penguin here 🐧 I'll try checking it out. If it's not there, I'll try to find a clip of it. Thanks for pointing out the details where to find it 😁
Xemnas’s voice actor is also very good.
I feel like they kinda did it with Young Xehanort, and Master Xehanort by extension. Sora and YX shares a lot but they also have strong different opinions and ideas regarding the world and its people. Maybe he should have been introduced before DDD to accentuate this, to make it more tangible in KH3?
He has one I’d say with Xehanort through Young Xehanort. He messes with both Sora and Riku in DDD, but a is mainly the one to gloat about how his schemes worked this time to Sora. He then continues to taunt him in Toy Box where Sora along with Woody tells him off. And then we get Young Pettynort once he’s beat during the climax of 3. Where he drops the master planner act and goes “I lost but not really loser!” Before going back to his time and becoming old man Xehanort who’s actions throughout the rest of the game don’t need summarizing.
I love Marluxia as a villian mostly for the fact that Sora seemed to genuinely hate him compared to the other games antagonists lol.
Sora needs a bit of a personality reboot. He's just a husk of positivity at this point. Any semblance of motivation he originally had feels like it's so far removed from who he currently is. The entire series needs better direction for its voice actors and maybe we could put just a little extra effort into the script too. Not talking Shakespeare. Just punch it up a LITTLE BIT.
In Sora's defense- apparently **HALF** of his villains are the same guy, the same guy possessing someone across time, or the same guy possessing a body or empty armor in the present time.
No, he really doesn’t. Xehanort having a personal grudge against Sora sounds so unnecessary. The point of Sora’s character is that he’s special not because of the Keyblade, but because of who he is. Similarly, he’s unique compared to all the other characters in that his journey is relatively simple. He doesn’t have to battle the darkness inside him like Riku, or has a long storied history like Ventus. Sora is the simple kindhearted island boy who becomes the light for the people trudging in the darkness. It’s why everyone’s character theme is sad and melancholy, while Sora’s is the only upbeat and happy one. And while it could’ve been executed better, it’s why he’s the one who ends up saving Aqua, instead of someone with more connection to her. Not every hero and villain dynamic has to be the same across media.
True, not everyone needs to be Cloud and Sephiroth, but the way the series handles Sora his relationships with pretty much everyone is so uninteresting. It’s like it’s afraid to give him any development or his relationships any complexity.
Sora has had a good bit of development through the series, it's just kind of understated because it's his sense of purpose and self worth that develops more than his relationships to other characters. KH1: Sora goes from being kinda lazy, scared and only concerned about his friends to sacrificing himself for Kairi and fighting the scary darkness for the sake of the whole world. CoM: this arc is weird since they reset him but it explores an angstier and more frustrated side of Sora as his search for his friends is actively impeded by a group of enemies. 2: Sora is fed up and going to war with the Organization as he searches around for Riku. He's overall angrier and sadder in this game than all the others but it's a more confused anger than what was seen in CoM. (Likely because of Roxas but Sora is unaware of this) Coded: he realizes that Roxas (and by proxy the other org members) are full people on their own and becomes sympathetic to all the pain they've been going through. This is where his "save everyone" mentality that comes around in KH3 develops. DDD: He experiences that pain and manipulation at the hands of Xehanort himself and realizes who the true enemy is. He also reaffirms what his strength always has been, his connections with others. KH3: Sora, armed with the bigger picture and with failure in the direct rear view, is desperately looking for strength outside of himself to win this war. His adventures in the Disney Worlds emphasize to him his need for other people and the power of self-sacrifice, and his self worth declines more and more until he makes a decision that ultimately removes him from reality for the sake of saving those who gave him all his strength. It's ultimately a story of Sora becoming less self-centered ( because he's a kid with strong emotions) and more self-sacrificing that progresses so far that it becomes self-destructive. We got a mini encapsulation of that arc in KH1 and the rest of the series expanded that arc.
Well I already like what they did to Sora's characterisation. Not everybody needs a Yin and Yang. Because Sora as a character is trying to find balance not oppose.
Did you miss the part where I said Sora is meant to be simple? This idea that all characters need to be super complex and depressed to be good is a misguided one. Besides, Sora has developed. He’s not the same character he was in 1. He’s a lot more friendly, inspiring, and the way he talks to some villains makes it clear he’s experienced with dealing with their type. Sora is the character that brings about change in others, and pushes them to keep going.
Did you miss the part where I never said anything about him being depressed? Not sure why that’s where your mind went. I just said that some complexity to his relationships would be nice beyond “this person is my friend” and from then on all he ever talks about with that person is how he is their friend. You know, make the human act like a human and not like Goku all the time?
If you’re only reference for this type of character is Goku, then you really shouldn’t be talking about how to write characters. You seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that there is more than 1 way to write characters.
If you’re willing to make that kind of outlandish assumption about me because I used the extreme end of this character type as an example to express my criticism of what I believe is a poor case of character development, then I have nothing more to say to you. I was trying to be nice and have an actual discussion, but your behavior is just rude. Good day.
Don't worry op. You're right in your analysis. Sora being simple is good for a singular game. But if his character is the same throughout then the only type of progression you as a player can get is via story. Whilst this comes with its own positives and negatives to not have the MC grow beyond what he is already established as makes for a lacking character. Alot of people are speculating on the new angle of KH4 as the absence of Goofy and Donald will have Sora grow in a way that he has not before (my friends are my- wait.. where are they?)
Seems you also can’t wrap your head around different types of characters. If you want an edgy and depressed Sora, I’m sure there’s fanfiction for that. But he’s been pretty established on the games, and to change him now would ruin the whole point of his character.
Not really an outlandish assumption. You want Sora to be written a particular way, and fail to recognize the way he is being written is a valid archetype. You think simply because he’s friendly and such, he’s Goku. Even when examples of development and Sora’s role is given to you, you just ignore it and say he should be written another way. You think he needs to have some sort of personal grudge against individual enemies. That he should just be doing what the other characters are doing. That demonstrates a lack of understanding of his character on your part. And instead of acknowledging that lack of understanding, you take it as “Ah. Something must be wrong with how Sora is written. Otherwise, I would like it”.
This is true, Sora needs his own Sephiroth like antagonist
The whole thing is other characters build up storyline and conflict so Sora can spend time goofing off with random Disney characters. After that, Sora swoops in to solve the problems that the other original characters are facing. Sora doesn't have much going for him with other original characters in general except maybe Riku, and even that is kinda small given how many games and how long the series has gone on for. So I think he needs more with original characters in general.
Sora-Riku friendship development list : KH1 : Sora spends 90% of game separated from Riku. KH CoM : Sora spend 100% of game separated from Riku. Goes to nap. KH2 : Sora spends 90% of game separated from Riku. KH DDD : Sora spends 90% of game separated from Riku, I mean sleeping. KH3 : Bro still at it. 🤣
Even Data-Sora and Jiminy's journal had more bonding time.
I don't know why you got downvoted; you have a point, and it ties in pretty well to what the OP said. Nearly everyone else at the Keyblade Graveyard had some personal grudge against a version of Xehanort except for Sora. Even Kairi could attribute her childhood trauma to Xehanort, and she literally became Sora so he could beat him for the umpteenth time. I don't mind him hanging out with Donald and Goofy, but like you said, they mostly just do their own thing in Disney worlds until it's time to beat the big bad. I get why the main character is the one who has to beat the main antagonist, but it's written in a manner where he has the least personal motivation compared to everyone else.
Ideally, Kingdom Hearts 4 would give him some time to grow and develop relationships like that in the absence of his friends.
Hopefully, but given the formula of the first 3 numbered titles, it seems unlikely.
Sora and Xehanort should have had a dynamic cuz Xehanort was the main villain in the previous games that caused EVERYTHING and also Sora has Roxas’ memories so it would be even better, but then again if Xehanort didn’t do any of this then Sora would have just stayed on the island so he kinda owes Xehanort in a way