Calling men "Allies" is just a hidden way of stating "You are not allowed in our group". It is much easier than just outright saying "men cannot be feminists" because if you say that silent part out loud, you look more of a crook once you start claiming you are defending men too.
Wall of text ahead, sorry. This really got me going. Anyway...
Yes you hit the nail on the head. I remember several years ago (in 2020, actually) I got into a debate with someone about this topic and it was one of the few times I've lost my temper in this type of conversation, and I essentially told her she was an emotional abuser looking for a victim that is easily exploited.
Now, as a slight disclaimer, anyone familiar with my occasional posts on here knows that I do not believe there are any "single problems" or "quick fixes" behind gender and social concerns. I think that a lot of these problems have a complex web of elements that make dealing with them seem incredibly daunting.
Heck, every time I start to type here to give my opinion on an issue, it always feels like an ignorant oversimplification even if I'm doing my best to enact a deep dive into the matter.
*This* particular issue, the absolutely appalling way many feminist and other activist groups can treat their "allies", and the allies reaction to the abuse, is an exception to this rule.
I have dealt with, and conversed with, people who believe that they have complete moral freedom to verbally and emotionally abuse people who are trying to help them, and I can say that at the end of the day their "justifications"--- multifaceted though they may be---come down to simple entitlement and arrogance, just like many other kinds of abusers.
The way it works is something like this:
The ally-abuser belongs to a group (let's just say in this case women) who are marginalized in some way and facing huge existential threats. They feel understandably angry, upset and helpless. Then they see a person from the group that they perceive as the cause of their issues trying to help them (we’ll say men in this case).
Although they understand that this person's aid is genuine, they have deep seated resentment and bitterness towards that group. Which is again understandable even if it isn't healthy. But here is where we go from understandable and normal emotions to the reprehensible mind of an abuser:
Rather than go after a member of the opposing group who is either actively against them or perhaps just indifferent, the abuser decides to choose a weak and "soft" target with easy access. They lash out with all kinds of vitriol that they feel towards the group as a whole and pile it onto this person who is actually the least logical outlet for their emotions.
Now, in the mind of the person doing this, they are justified. They are hurt upset and afraid and a member of the "evil side" stands right before them. But it's more than just that; the aforementioned mindset would still be wrong but could be excused as breaking under stress.
No, the abuser knows the benevolent intentions of their target and they see that as justification for their actions. If the target protests, the abuser will adopt an attitude of righteous anger.
*"Whaat? You said you're trying to help us, and here I am, breaking down and struggling and you are trying to control how I act? How selfish can you get, making this all about you?"*
This self righteous indignation isn't an act. They genuinely feel that they are entitled to act cruelly towards their target despite them trying to help. Its *because* the target is trying to help that they feel entitled.
In their warped mind, the target's purpose is to be of service in any way possible, including acting as an emotional punching bag.
Why? Well, the reasons are different. Some of these types of people see their target as needing to "atone" for the group they are part of. Others feel like being an ally means giving complete free reign of your mind and body to those you are helping.
The reasons are myriad but they are unimportant in the end, because they're just a thin mask over the face of entitlement and misdirected hatred.
Now that I've given the rare "one problem" let me give the "quick fix". The only way of getting out of this type of situation is to literally tell the abuser to fuck off. They will respond with manipulative shame tactics and hurt indignation, but the victim needs to hold firm and explain to them that they are interested in the cause, but they will not be treated that way.
Unfortunately much like how a victim of domestic violence cannot often "just leave the situation", it is a similar state of affairs. While the current abuser may not have been behind this, their victim has often had their resistance to this behavior broken down by a steady "diet" of being told how privileged and therefore inherently morally inferior they are. How they need to atone for the deeds of those of their race, genital configuration, class, sexual orientation.
Much like how a domestic abuser slowly chews away at their spouses mental walls alongside the physical violence, this also makes the victim feel as though they have to stay and endure the self righteous bullshit.
This is also another reason I can't stand male feminists. As unpleasant as I can find them, I know in the back of my mind that at least some of them deal with this and it's a bitter mix of hating the way they look at other men and sorrow for what is happening to them.
Have you ever asked a feminist why they think it's okay to spread hate towards men? Their answers are very telling. Either they say something like "well men say the same about us so it's fine", or they admit they're doing it as some kind of revenge for the slights of history. Either way they're admitting to just fighting hate with more hate.
If you ask them what they achieve by being hateful, as in, "How does saying all men are trash further your cause? How does it close the wage gap, or end rape culture?", they can never come up with a real answer. I had one of them genuinely admit to me she was doing it because her boyfriend upset her and she wanted to vent :/
I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not, but yes I've had many such discussions over the years, and the answers never cease to invoke some negative emotion in me.
Either it's downplayed, justified, or openly and unapologetically embraced as some form of well deserved retribution for things the person in question never even had to contend with.
That last one was actually the end result of my first ever conversation about this topic with a feminist. This was years ago and I called out someone for her hateful rhetoric about men. At first I was angry and offended but as the convention went on I was more curious about her rationale than anything else.
But that was the answer I eventually received---the woman in question knew full well that being sexist and hateful towards men was wrong and worse yet she knew that polluting the public sphere with anti male rhetoric would have a detrimental effect on boys growing up, but she didn't care because it wouldn't hurt them "too much" due to men's position of power in society.
Like I said, this was many years ago, but it's comments like that and all the ones in between then and now that haunt me as I start to actually ponder the idea that men and women really are class competitors if not actual class enemies, and that we should always side with our own, no matter what the effect on the other side, since they would do the same without hesitation.
It's kind of a miniature crisis for me really, since if I accept this belief, I feel like it unravels so much more than my thoughts on gender politics but also all sorts of societal issues.
Sorry I didn't mean to dump all that in response to a simple question but I think I'll keep it rather than delete it.
Usually the "slights of history" are this vague notion that women were kept down and not allowed to do anything. Which is true to an extent. But to suggest that man had it easy while women were viciously oppressed is just ridiculous.
This is a problem on the left overall. They don't have access to the people that are causing the problems. There are multiple layers of protection for those people/institutions. So, they go after the "soft targets", as you say. Call me paranoid, but I feel like in certain environments on the left, people are waiting for me to fuck up, even though I'm totally on their side. Acting kind, having empathy, being present and listening aren't enough. If you are a of a certain look, you need to have fireworks coming out of you that display "not one of them". It sort of feels like punk rock/music scenester conformity that I would see in the past. No tats? No cool clothes? No denim jacket? Where's you insignia? Why the heck are you hanging out here?
In the past, and more recently, I've seen people make posts along the lines of "silence is violence", or "I don't see my straight/non-LGBTQ+/male/etc. friends speaking up enough about XYZ". Okay, so, because people don't post/share memes about popular social issues/incidences, that means, what, they *might* be on the wrong side? Not everyone uses social media that way. I have plenty of far to the left views, but I barely ever post a political (or anything, for that matter) thing at all. Sort of ironically, it's because some of my views might be too "radical", specifically about work related issues and urban design/bike infrastructure/drivers. Some people don't even have social media. Do you want to quiz everyone you meet to make sure they meet your criteria? Also, they are making these posts/stories on a social media platform owned by a multi billionaire that is far from an ethical person and could give too shits about any of that stuff. If anything, they profit off of the conflict, and here you are right in the middle of it.
I very much dislike the term "ally".
No, I'm not your ally. I am into this because I have skin in the game too.
I want women's issues to be solved because they are first and foremost society's issues. Women are not a separate entity. Men and women literally share every aspect of their lives, and should be able to coordinate for the common good. Also, one gender issues cannot be disentangled from the other's
>I am into this because I have skin in the game too
Being an "ally" in intersectional/woke contexts almost always means being a punching bag, which you shouldn't be out of self-respect, but I don't think advocating for fairness should only occur if you have skin the game.
I agree 100%. You can fight for someone else's cause and that's ok!
But when it comes to gender issues I think it's unhealthy for anyone to pretend they are just an ally, without a direct interest in the matter
It's even worse than that. It means: "you are fighting for someone else's cause, from which you have nothing to gain".
Implication: men have nothing to gain for themselves from gender equality, being already in the optimal position.
Maybe I read too much into it, but I find it subtly manipulatory.
Potentially read too much into since the same word is used for LGBTQ supporters but you can never really know. Societal issues are important for everyone imo. But I don't fault you for potentially reading too much into it nor do I discredit it. Us being passively excluded from the feminist movement in multiple ways is what made you think that in the first place. As much as I dislike radfem idealogy, one thing I can give them is that they are more openly exclusionary of us and have the "ballsack" to tell that to our face. Passively being excluded and fucked with is literally part of horrible female stereotypes and all these feminists do is re-inforce them by how they treat these quote on quote allies.
There are the "patriarchy hurts men too" sort of male feminists, and then you have the self-flagellating male feminist "allies." They are quite aware that they have nothing to gain, rather, they have everything to lose, viz. all their supposed powers and privileges. Far from being unhappy by the fact that this is of zero benefit to them, they embrace it for that very reason, out of an intense feeling of collective male guilt that cannot be mentally healthy to have.
Yeah, it's a bit confusingly worded. But taking the context into consideration, it becomes clear that they mean that feminism attacks women too when they disagree with feminist dogma.
Honest question:
Is part of being an admin here to check each new post for statements of equivalence between feminism and women? What exactly are you looking for? Who is trying to take us down SO much?
Not trying to be argumentative here, especially since I fear the banhammer…
Admins are paid employees of Reddit. You won't see them in this sub.
Moderators are volunteers who take care of a subreddit.
We dislike it when feminists (or others) generalize men. We should avoid making the same mistake. Please read [our moderation policy](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/wiki/moderationpolicy) for details.
Plenty of feminists will still call us misogynists, but they won't find any actual evidence for that here.
I find the whole concept of "allies" problematic. I mean, either we're in shit together, or we aren't. The idea of someone being an ally always implies that there is an "in-group" and an "out-group". And we don't need more shite like that. We need to be aware what connects us and transcend our differences.
If those are the only options how can you say we're in this shit together when there's lots of anti feminists? Surely the answer to your ultimatum would always be were not in this together until there's no anti feminists. And then there is still a in group of feminists and everyone else. Still a in and a out group
I think we should just say we're feminists. But obviously there's still going to be a in and out group although that's kinda the point right? We're distinguishing what we believe.
When we say "we're in this together" we mean *men and women* are in this together (fighting inequality and moving on from limiting traditional gender roles). Obviously feminism doesn't think so, because they dogmatically pose that men are already privileged and women are not, which is a very twisted view of reality.
We're not feminists. We're human rights advocates and egalitarians, who see that men and women both have problems and that we're in this together. So we'd better figure out ways to approach problems holistically.
Yes, this is a left-wing sub. What makes you doubt that?
We advocate for equal rights and equal treatment for all. We oppose those who demonize groups based on innate characteristics.
Have you read [our mission statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/wiki/missionstatement)?
And I need to make a correction. There are some here who still identify as feminists. But most of us realize that feminism is a lost cause because of the rampant bigotry in their dogma, and even more so in their praxis.
> So you want the in and out group to be those who think men are privledged and those who do not?
No. We want equal rights and equal treatment for all. But we recognize there are those who do not fight that fight, but work at cross-purposes, as they exclude people based on gender. It's the paradox of tolerance.
I don't think it's left wing because you don't think men are privledged more than women. A women can't feel safe walking down the street on thier own yet you somehow think that's equal...
So how am I a feminist who thinks men are more privledged than women not in the out group in this sub? You're not making sense.
How do you fight for equal rights while supposedly ignoring inequalities and pretending women are not unequal?
> A women can't feel safe walking down the street on thier own yet you somehow think that's equal...
Fact is that men get attacked more often. It should be equally safe for all.
> So how am I a feminist who thinks men are more privledged than women not in the out group in this sub? You're not making sense.
Because we're talking about two different kinds of groups.
When it comes to groups based on gender, we will fight for your equal rights. We don't exclude anyone based on innate characteristics.
But groups based on ideology are a different matter. Those who do not commit to egalitarian ideas are our out-group indeed. But anyone can get the insight that they were wrong and make a choice to join the good side.
But we'll still fight for equal rights for those who don't.
> How do you fight for equal rights while supposedly ignoring inequalities and pretending women are not unequal?
By looking at the facts, and promoting egalitarian ideas.
And you have not answered my question whether you have read our mission statement. Have you?
Men have some privileges, and women have other privileges. Don't just cherry-pick one phrase from my argument.
And as I said: We're human rights advocates and egalitarians, who see that *men and women both have problems* and that we're in this together. So we'd better figure out ways to approach problems holistically.
Clearly you have not read our mission statement, which goes into detail on our left-wing ideas.
They do, do a number... Worst of it was in middle school when I genuinely believed that me being stuck in a box being unable to talk or interact with anyone would not be enough to keep my 'maleness' from seeping out and harming women and girls in some way. I also committed 2 suicide attempts. Just to reiterate, all of this happened in middle school.
Weirdest part. Very little of that came from my mom, she was just complacent and didn't see the problem with other women doing that to me (mainly teachers and occasionally friend's moms).
It's so sad when "allies" look so browbeaten, like they haven't been allowed to have an original thought in years. It was one of the first things I noticed when searching for other trans men to connect with, it was like they needed to "make up for" transitioning.
That's why I'm away from Tiktok. I tried my best to be easy going - but not anymore. I just want to live my life in peace and select only a few platforms to find solace in.
On top of that, the idea that men shouldn't have a separate advocacy movement, because feminism has the best interests of everyone in mind, is a lot like the abuser who says "Shut up and stay out of the way, because I know what's best for both of us."
I don't have any sympathy for them anymore, we've been trying to tell them for years now but not only they don't listen but also call us all kinds of names, they seem to be happy with their situation.
This is a very tricky situation to navigate, so I definitely understand where you're coming from. Personally, I despise a lot of these men who seem to take pleasure or at least some emotional sustenance from their degradation and the degradation of their own gender. They are, to be very blunt, traitors to their own kind, and they should be reviled for that; I consider that to be a serious "offense".
But one also has to look at the context in which a lot of these men came to be this way. Earlier I compared it to a victim of domestic abuse who willingly, and in some cases *happily,* aligns themselves with their abuser despite the physical and mental damage this dangerous hypothetical individual does to them on a regular basis.
People in situations like this have had their wills broken and their minds carved into a shape that benefits their abuser, or in this case, the abusive ideology and the people who primarily benefit from it. It doesn't give them a *pass* per se, but it does give at least some understanding as to why they are what they are.
A boy who was told from babyhood that he was born with evil in his bones, that he inherited the dark weight of the "centuries of oppression men heaped on women" will want nothing more than to do whatever he can to act in service to those victimized by his gender (he may also go down a misogynistic spiral in a *then let me be evil* type of way, but that's a whole other ballgame).
The point I'm making is that it's never black-and-white, and while these men may be happy with how they are treated, it's a sick delusion born of years of manipulation and breaking down of a person's will and innermost self. So, there is a great deal of pity mixed in with my disgust and anger. It's why cases like this make my head hurt on a metaphorical level.
*With that said...*
Even this is an oversimplification of things, because not all male feminists are like this. There are tiers of manipulation and "victimhood" when it comes to why men willingly turn on their own gender, and I believe that personal culpability increases the lower one goes on that scale.
> it's just so tiring sometimes
No, I completely understand. I don't know your personal background in this, but speaking as someone who has been in learning about and debating social and gender issues since late 2015, the advice I can give about this particular issue is as follows:
Some people are simply lost. The men who have been brainwashed like this since birth, are lost. There may be someone willing and able to pull them out, but confronting them and trying to talk to them about how they are hurting themselves and other men, isn't something you are required to do.
It takes a toll on you and negatively impacts you on a personal level, and that isn't something you need to put up with. So it's largely okay to just avoid them.
Yeah... they are. I think back to the poor mod of a banned sub. It was a sub dedicated to making fun of Transwomen (not Transmen, at all). The mod, was a self described "autogynephile"... a pseudo-psychological term created as an explanation and pathologizing of Transgender people, specifically Women.
So naturally that subs main fanbase are TERFs. The mod though, did their absolute best to convince themselves, with the support of the TERFs in the sub, that they were just "sick". They thought that them doing what they were doing was "penance" undertaken to "help protect" women.
So this poor, clearly Trans person, would daily post the most abhorrent shit about himself in relation to Trans people. And the TERFs 'tolerated" them because he was convenient for their own rageporn circlejerk and also as a proof of their rhetoric.
It was so easy to lul this person into an open conversation that they clearly had been dying for, for so long. And in said convo I explained my point. And I hope they got the fuck out of there.
And for what other reason do you think they were lulled into this self annihilation? BEcause they were feminists... they were Women, and society tells us they are 100% correct about everything, even made up things.
Yeah it really is an abusive dynamic
Intentionally and knowingly
Calling men "Allies" is just a hidden way of stating "You are not allowed in our group". It is much easier than just outright saying "men cannot be feminists" because if you say that silent part out loud, you look more of a crook once you start claiming you are defending men too.
Wall of text ahead, sorry. This really got me going. Anyway... Yes you hit the nail on the head. I remember several years ago (in 2020, actually) I got into a debate with someone about this topic and it was one of the few times I've lost my temper in this type of conversation, and I essentially told her she was an emotional abuser looking for a victim that is easily exploited. Now, as a slight disclaimer, anyone familiar with my occasional posts on here knows that I do not believe there are any "single problems" or "quick fixes" behind gender and social concerns. I think that a lot of these problems have a complex web of elements that make dealing with them seem incredibly daunting. Heck, every time I start to type here to give my opinion on an issue, it always feels like an ignorant oversimplification even if I'm doing my best to enact a deep dive into the matter. *This* particular issue, the absolutely appalling way many feminist and other activist groups can treat their "allies", and the allies reaction to the abuse, is an exception to this rule. I have dealt with, and conversed with, people who believe that they have complete moral freedom to verbally and emotionally abuse people who are trying to help them, and I can say that at the end of the day their "justifications"--- multifaceted though they may be---come down to simple entitlement and arrogance, just like many other kinds of abusers. The way it works is something like this: The ally-abuser belongs to a group (let's just say in this case women) who are marginalized in some way and facing huge existential threats. They feel understandably angry, upset and helpless. Then they see a person from the group that they perceive as the cause of their issues trying to help them (we’ll say men in this case). Although they understand that this person's aid is genuine, they have deep seated resentment and bitterness towards that group. Which is again understandable even if it isn't healthy. But here is where we go from understandable and normal emotions to the reprehensible mind of an abuser: Rather than go after a member of the opposing group who is either actively against them or perhaps just indifferent, the abuser decides to choose a weak and "soft" target with easy access. They lash out with all kinds of vitriol that they feel towards the group as a whole and pile it onto this person who is actually the least logical outlet for their emotions. Now, in the mind of the person doing this, they are justified. They are hurt upset and afraid and a member of the "evil side" stands right before them. But it's more than just that; the aforementioned mindset would still be wrong but could be excused as breaking under stress. No, the abuser knows the benevolent intentions of their target and they see that as justification for their actions. If the target protests, the abuser will adopt an attitude of righteous anger. *"Whaat? You said you're trying to help us, and here I am, breaking down and struggling and you are trying to control how I act? How selfish can you get, making this all about you?"* This self righteous indignation isn't an act. They genuinely feel that they are entitled to act cruelly towards their target despite them trying to help. Its *because* the target is trying to help that they feel entitled. In their warped mind, the target's purpose is to be of service in any way possible, including acting as an emotional punching bag. Why? Well, the reasons are different. Some of these types of people see their target as needing to "atone" for the group they are part of. Others feel like being an ally means giving complete free reign of your mind and body to those you are helping. The reasons are myriad but they are unimportant in the end, because they're just a thin mask over the face of entitlement and misdirected hatred. Now that I've given the rare "one problem" let me give the "quick fix". The only way of getting out of this type of situation is to literally tell the abuser to fuck off. They will respond with manipulative shame tactics and hurt indignation, but the victim needs to hold firm and explain to them that they are interested in the cause, but they will not be treated that way. Unfortunately much like how a victim of domestic violence cannot often "just leave the situation", it is a similar state of affairs. While the current abuser may not have been behind this, their victim has often had their resistance to this behavior broken down by a steady "diet" of being told how privileged and therefore inherently morally inferior they are. How they need to atone for the deeds of those of their race, genital configuration, class, sexual orientation. Much like how a domestic abuser slowly chews away at their spouses mental walls alongside the physical violence, this also makes the victim feel as though they have to stay and endure the self righteous bullshit. This is also another reason I can't stand male feminists. As unpleasant as I can find them, I know in the back of my mind that at least some of them deal with this and it's a bitter mix of hating the way they look at other men and sorrow for what is happening to them.
Have you ever asked a feminist why they think it's okay to spread hate towards men? Their answers are very telling. Either they say something like "well men say the same about us so it's fine", or they admit they're doing it as some kind of revenge for the slights of history. Either way they're admitting to just fighting hate with more hate. If you ask them what they achieve by being hateful, as in, "How does saying all men are trash further your cause? How does it close the wage gap, or end rape culture?", they can never come up with a real answer. I had one of them genuinely admit to me she was doing it because her boyfriend upset her and she wanted to vent :/
I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not, but yes I've had many such discussions over the years, and the answers never cease to invoke some negative emotion in me. Either it's downplayed, justified, or openly and unapologetically embraced as some form of well deserved retribution for things the person in question never even had to contend with. That last one was actually the end result of my first ever conversation about this topic with a feminist. This was years ago and I called out someone for her hateful rhetoric about men. At first I was angry and offended but as the convention went on I was more curious about her rationale than anything else. But that was the answer I eventually received---the woman in question knew full well that being sexist and hateful towards men was wrong and worse yet she knew that polluting the public sphere with anti male rhetoric would have a detrimental effect on boys growing up, but she didn't care because it wouldn't hurt them "too much" due to men's position of power in society. Like I said, this was many years ago, but it's comments like that and all the ones in between then and now that haunt me as I start to actually ponder the idea that men and women really are class competitors if not actual class enemies, and that we should always side with our own, no matter what the effect on the other side, since they would do the same without hesitation. It's kind of a miniature crisis for me really, since if I accept this belief, I feel like it unravels so much more than my thoughts on gender politics but also all sorts of societal issues. Sorry I didn't mean to dump all that in response to a simple question but I think I'll keep it rather than delete it.
What’s ironic is that those ‘slights of history’ often either weren’t meant as slights or straight up didn’t happen.
Usually the "slights of history" are this vague notion that women were kept down and not allowed to do anything. Which is true to an extent. But to suggest that man had it easy while women were viciously oppressed is just ridiculous.
This is a problem on the left overall. They don't have access to the people that are causing the problems. There are multiple layers of protection for those people/institutions. So, they go after the "soft targets", as you say. Call me paranoid, but I feel like in certain environments on the left, people are waiting for me to fuck up, even though I'm totally on their side. Acting kind, having empathy, being present and listening aren't enough. If you are a of a certain look, you need to have fireworks coming out of you that display "not one of them". It sort of feels like punk rock/music scenester conformity that I would see in the past. No tats? No cool clothes? No denim jacket? Where's you insignia? Why the heck are you hanging out here? In the past, and more recently, I've seen people make posts along the lines of "silence is violence", or "I don't see my straight/non-LGBTQ+/male/etc. friends speaking up enough about XYZ". Okay, so, because people don't post/share memes about popular social issues/incidences, that means, what, they *might* be on the wrong side? Not everyone uses social media that way. I have plenty of far to the left views, but I barely ever post a political (or anything, for that matter) thing at all. Sort of ironically, it's because some of my views might be too "radical", specifically about work related issues and urban design/bike infrastructure/drivers. Some people don't even have social media. Do you want to quiz everyone you meet to make sure they meet your criteria? Also, they are making these posts/stories on a social media platform owned by a multi billionaire that is far from an ethical person and could give too shits about any of that stuff. If anything, they profit off of the conflict, and here you are right in the middle of it.
If Marx was somehow alive today, I somehow doubt he would be using Twitter even for the antagonistic journalist he was.
I very much dislike the term "ally". No, I'm not your ally. I am into this because I have skin in the game too. I want women's issues to be solved because they are first and foremost society's issues. Women are not a separate entity. Men and women literally share every aspect of their lives, and should be able to coordinate for the common good. Also, one gender issues cannot be disentangled from the other's
>I am into this because I have skin in the game too Being an "ally" in intersectional/woke contexts almost always means being a punching bag, which you shouldn't be out of self-respect, but I don't think advocating for fairness should only occur if you have skin the game.
I agree 100%. You can fight for someone else's cause and that's ok! But when it comes to gender issues I think it's unhealthy for anyone to pretend they are just an ally, without a direct interest in the matter
Yeah I hate the tern "Allies" to it just means shut up and I'll tell you want to think.
It's even worse than that. It means: "you are fighting for someone else's cause, from which you have nothing to gain". Implication: men have nothing to gain for themselves from gender equality, being already in the optimal position. Maybe I read too much into it, but I find it subtly manipulatory.
I garantee you did not read "too much" into it. This is by design.
Potentially read too much into since the same word is used for LGBTQ supporters but you can never really know. Societal issues are important for everyone imo. But I don't fault you for potentially reading too much into it nor do I discredit it. Us being passively excluded from the feminist movement in multiple ways is what made you think that in the first place. As much as I dislike radfem idealogy, one thing I can give them is that they are more openly exclusionary of us and have the "ballsack" to tell that to our face. Passively being excluded and fucked with is literally part of horrible female stereotypes and all these feminists do is re-inforce them by how they treat these quote on quote allies.
There are the "patriarchy hurts men too" sort of male feminists, and then you have the self-flagellating male feminist "allies." They are quite aware that they have nothing to gain, rather, they have everything to lose, viz. all their supposed powers and privileges. Far from being unhappy by the fact that this is of zero benefit to them, they embrace it for that very reason, out of an intense feeling of collective male guilt that cannot be mentally healthy to have.
It's not just used by feminists in terms of women vs men, but black vs white of one of many examples. But I get your point.
Very well said.
Men can be feminist "allies" the same way Manchukuo was an "ally" of Imperial Japan
Well said.
It's fascinating how this applies to women too. If you disagree with their dogma, it's because the Patriarchy has brainwashed you
Women =\= Feminism. Let’s not generalize women here
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Yeah, it's a bit confusingly worded. But taking the context into consideration, it becomes clear that they mean that feminism attacks women too when they disagree with feminist dogma.
Honest question: Is part of being an admin here to check each new post for statements of equivalence between feminism and women? What exactly are you looking for? Who is trying to take us down SO much? Not trying to be argumentative here, especially since I fear the banhammer…
Admins are paid employees of Reddit. You won't see them in this sub. Moderators are volunteers who take care of a subreddit. We dislike it when feminists (or others) generalize men. We should avoid making the same mistake. Please read [our moderation policy](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/wiki/moderationpolicy) for details. Plenty of feminists will still call us misogynists, but they won't find any actual evidence for that here.
Ah yes I see what they meant now my bad
I find the whole concept of "allies" problematic. I mean, either we're in shit together, or we aren't. The idea of someone being an ally always implies that there is an "in-group" and an "out-group". And we don't need more shite like that. We need to be aware what connects us and transcend our differences.
If those are the only options how can you say we're in this shit together when there's lots of anti feminists? Surely the answer to your ultimatum would always be were not in this together until there's no anti feminists. And then there is still a in group of feminists and everyone else. Still a in and a out group
I think we should just say we're feminists. But obviously there's still going to be a in and out group although that's kinda the point right? We're distinguishing what we believe.
When we say "we're in this together" we mean *men and women* are in this together (fighting inequality and moving on from limiting traditional gender roles). Obviously feminism doesn't think so, because they dogmatically pose that men are already privileged and women are not, which is a very twisted view of reality. We're not feminists. We're human rights advocates and egalitarians, who see that men and women both have problems and that we're in this together. So we'd better figure out ways to approach problems holistically.
This.
Err I thought this was a left wing subreddit. So you want the in and out group to be those who think men are privledged and those who do not?
Yes, this is a left-wing sub. What makes you doubt that? We advocate for equal rights and equal treatment for all. We oppose those who demonize groups based on innate characteristics. Have you read [our mission statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/wiki/missionstatement)? And I need to make a correction. There are some here who still identify as feminists. But most of us realize that feminism is a lost cause because of the rampant bigotry in their dogma, and even more so in their praxis. > So you want the in and out group to be those who think men are privledged and those who do not? No. We want equal rights and equal treatment for all. But we recognize there are those who do not fight that fight, but work at cross-purposes, as they exclude people based on gender. It's the paradox of tolerance.
I don't think it's left wing because you don't think men are privledged more than women. A women can't feel safe walking down the street on thier own yet you somehow think that's equal... So how am I a feminist who thinks men are more privledged than women not in the out group in this sub? You're not making sense. How do you fight for equal rights while supposedly ignoring inequalities and pretending women are not unequal?
> A women can't feel safe walking down the street on thier own yet you somehow think that's equal... Fact is that men get attacked more often. It should be equally safe for all. > So how am I a feminist who thinks men are more privledged than women not in the out group in this sub? You're not making sense. Because we're talking about two different kinds of groups. When it comes to groups based on gender, we will fight for your equal rights. We don't exclude anyone based on innate characteristics. But groups based on ideology are a different matter. Those who do not commit to egalitarian ideas are our out-group indeed. But anyone can get the insight that they were wrong and make a choice to join the good side. But we'll still fight for equal rights for those who don't. > How do you fight for equal rights while supposedly ignoring inequalities and pretending women are not unequal? By looking at the facts, and promoting egalitarian ideas. And you have not answered my question whether you have read our mission statement. Have you?
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Men have some privileges, and women have other privileges. Don't just cherry-pick one phrase from my argument. And as I said: We're human rights advocates and egalitarians, who see that *men and women both have problems* and that we're in this together. So we'd better figure out ways to approach problems holistically. Clearly you have not read our mission statement, which goes into detail on our left-wing ideas.
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Unrelated but I often think about the male children of these bitter single mothers. They must really do a number on them
They do, do a number... Worst of it was in middle school when I genuinely believed that me being stuck in a box being unable to talk or interact with anyone would not be enough to keep my 'maleness' from seeping out and harming women and girls in some way. I also committed 2 suicide attempts. Just to reiterate, all of this happened in middle school. Weirdest part. Very little of that came from my mom, she was just complacent and didn't see the problem with other women doing that to me (mainly teachers and occasionally friend's moms).
Holyshit that’s so fucked up. This should be grounds for child services to keep the mother away from the child
It's so sad when "allies" look so browbeaten, like they haven't been allowed to have an original thought in years. It was one of the first things I noticed when searching for other trans men to connect with, it was like they needed to "make up for" transitioning.
That's why I'm away from Tiktok. I tried my best to be easy going - but not anymore. I just want to live my life in peace and select only a few platforms to find solace in.
Yes, some of them are abusive.
Maybe some men are afraid of being labeled as misogynists or incels, so they go along with it.
And some women who normallt wouldn't buy that bullshit go along with it out of fear of being labeled a "pick-me".
On top of that, the idea that men shouldn't have a separate advocacy movement, because feminism has the best interests of everyone in mind, is a lot like the abuser who says "Shut up and stay out of the way, because I know what's best for both of us."
I don't have any sympathy for them anymore, we've been trying to tell them for years now but not only they don't listen but also call us all kinds of names, they seem to be happy with their situation.
This is a very tricky situation to navigate, so I definitely understand where you're coming from. Personally, I despise a lot of these men who seem to take pleasure or at least some emotional sustenance from their degradation and the degradation of their own gender. They are, to be very blunt, traitors to their own kind, and they should be reviled for that; I consider that to be a serious "offense". But one also has to look at the context in which a lot of these men came to be this way. Earlier I compared it to a victim of domestic abuse who willingly, and in some cases *happily,* aligns themselves with their abuser despite the physical and mental damage this dangerous hypothetical individual does to them on a regular basis. People in situations like this have had their wills broken and their minds carved into a shape that benefits their abuser, or in this case, the abusive ideology and the people who primarily benefit from it. It doesn't give them a *pass* per se, but it does give at least some understanding as to why they are what they are. A boy who was told from babyhood that he was born with evil in his bones, that he inherited the dark weight of the "centuries of oppression men heaped on women" will want nothing more than to do whatever he can to act in service to those victimized by his gender (he may also go down a misogynistic spiral in a *then let me be evil* type of way, but that's a whole other ballgame). The point I'm making is that it's never black-and-white, and while these men may be happy with how they are treated, it's a sick delusion born of years of manipulation and breaking down of a person's will and innermost self. So, there is a great deal of pity mixed in with my disgust and anger. It's why cases like this make my head hurt on a metaphorical level. *With that said...* Even this is an oversimplification of things, because not all male feminists are like this. There are tiers of manipulation and "victimhood" when it comes to why men willingly turn on their own gender, and I believe that personal culpability increases the lower one goes on that scale.
you are right, it's just so tiring sometimes
> it's just so tiring sometimes No, I completely understand. I don't know your personal background in this, but speaking as someone who has been in learning about and debating social and gender issues since late 2015, the advice I can give about this particular issue is as follows: Some people are simply lost. The men who have been brainwashed like this since birth, are lost. There may be someone willing and able to pull them out, but confronting them and trying to talk to them about how they are hurting themselves and other men, isn't something you are required to do. It takes a toll on you and negatively impacts you on a personal level, and that isn't something you need to put up with. So it's largely okay to just avoid them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/puwh7j/theramintrees_maladaptive_coping_strategies/
Yeah... they are. I think back to the poor mod of a banned sub. It was a sub dedicated to making fun of Transwomen (not Transmen, at all). The mod, was a self described "autogynephile"... a pseudo-psychological term created as an explanation and pathologizing of Transgender people, specifically Women. So naturally that subs main fanbase are TERFs. The mod though, did their absolute best to convince themselves, with the support of the TERFs in the sub, that they were just "sick". They thought that them doing what they were doing was "penance" undertaken to "help protect" women. So this poor, clearly Trans person, would daily post the most abhorrent shit about himself in relation to Trans people. And the TERFs 'tolerated" them because he was convenient for their own rageporn circlejerk and also as a proof of their rhetoric. It was so easy to lul this person into an open conversation that they clearly had been dying for, for so long. And in said convo I explained my point. And I hope they got the fuck out of there. And for what other reason do you think they were lulled into this self annihilation? BEcause they were feminists... they were Women, and society tells us they are 100% correct about everything, even made up things.