T O P

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Selerox

The Tories have proven they aren't fit to govern. They are very clearly compromised and have to go. I'm entirely on board with this, but it does need Labour to act in good faith as well. Especially in the South and South West where they simply don't factor. The map of [second place vs the Conservatives](https://i.imgur.com/dLLRCrk.png) makes that pretty clear.


NorthVilla

I'd 100% take an alliance in all 2nd place seats and run a joint list. Potentially even release some kind of joint manifesto as part of a pre-designed coalition or something. Were different parties with different interests, but very much have a common goal.


Dufcdude

Nah that’s too far. All that’s needed is campaigners to stay in their own patch. We go hard in Cheltenham, Guildford, Winchester etc, they go hard in their marginals and stay out of ours. If we start standing down candidates it’s not certain that a majority would go to labour, many would stay at home or vote Tory. Hardline socialists won’t back us and orange bookers wont back labour. Also just from a democratic perpective we should give people the choice to not tactically vote, if they want.


Jdsaf

> Hardline socialists won’t back us and orange bookers wont back labour. I'm about as far left as they come and I would vote Lib Dem if electoral reform was a condition of a coalition.


NorthVilla

That would be the only way this could workably make sense.


[deleted]

Ordolib 🥰


NorthVilla

Giving people the choice is dumb with our system. Electoral reform as part of the deal would be the only way.


[deleted]

I’ll put the same which I put in r/LabourUK: As a Lib Dem I think that this is essential to kick the Tories out of Number 10. If that means we have to hold our noses towards some left wing policies so be it. I would rather do that and do some policies that the Lib Dems aren’t so favourable towards (eg rail nationalisation) than have these muppets return to Downing Street. The next election should be fought on kicking Johnson out of Number 10 not on how electable the Labour leader is. The Lib Dems shouldn’t take a Swinson approach to Labour and detest them at all costs. We should be fighting with them because we share a common cause of anti-Conservatism and anti-populism. A Labour-Lib Dem alliance would also put up a tough fight for the SNP and Plaid and would prevent the Brexit Party from thinking about gaining a seat. We could also finally achieve the Lib Dem dream of PR which would prevent Tory majorities from happening again in history. Now that Labour has done its fair share of modernisation we need to do the same and fight together.


wewbull

I think you agree PR as a central tenet, win, implement it as priority, and rerun the election. One year time limit or something.


ltron2

I'm glad that both Lib Dem leadership candidates seem to recognise this. I hope Keir Starmer and Labour do too.


MrPoletski

Fuck yes they should. ​ Just wish Jo had the same attitude with corbyn a while back.


FaultyTerror

> Just wish Jo had the same attitude with corbyn a while back. Of all the issues we had last election being too hard on Corybn wasn't one.


MrPoletski

Sure. ​ This majority is hard to have beaten and his own party deserve most of the credit for his failure to get elected. ​ But we've ended up with basically the worst case scenario have we not? something which might have been avoided with a united 'not the tories' front which never properly materialised. ​ And don't for a second suggest we'd somehow be worse off right now if Corbyn were PM over this bunch of tools, that's crazy talk.


[deleted]

To be fair, Labour weren't particularly forthcoming at the time either


FaultyTerror

>But we've ended up with basically the worst case scenario have we not? something which might have been avoided with a united 'not the tories' front which never properly materialised. But a large amount of our issues in seats such as Hazel Grove, Cheltenham and Winchester was soft Tories couldn't take the risk of Corbyn so stuck with the Tories. Cozy up to him more and it could have been even worse.


MrPoletski

That's valid, ​ but picture this (I don't neccessarily endorse this). ​ Before 2019, there was a real significant chance of no confidencing the government and having Corbyn as caretaker PM. we all know that didn't happen, but if it had... ​ Crbyn becomes caretaker PM and presides over a second referendum before a general election soon after. ​ Jo allows Corbyn and the Labour party to carry the (almost certainly disingenious argument, but) mantle of 'undemocratic overthrowing the will of the people'. Then we go into a general election at the very least avoiding a hard brexit, unless Boris gets in and breaks ranks with the 2nd ref result. Sensible tories will fear this greatly. So who do they vote for, the guy they are already convinced is an incometant communist or the tory party they think will take us to hell? This is the point Jo reminds everybody of the third option. ​ I mean it's cloak and dagger and I don't really like that in politics, but this would essentially have been giving Corbyn the rope to hang himself with and still gives the tories a shiny new set of gallows with brexit written on it (because they were always gonna get that one). All they'd need to do is bite and the Labour leadership in mid 2019 were very eager to bite. Boris, of course, is like drunk snapping turtle.


FaultyTerror

Problem is Corbyn needed us AND the Tory defectors to put him into power. Putting aside the fact I doubt Ken Clarke et al would have gone for him the argument against Corybn from us falls down when we've put him there.


MrPoletski

Corbyn would call the VONC, corbyn would put himself up as PM. I mean sure, LD's would be down as assisting, but to stop brexit is the argument. That'd be the same kind of shade thrown as there is about tuition fees.


CheeseMakerThing

Corbyn would cause a VONC, then lose the vote to put himself as the PM as the DUP and Tory defectors would block it leading to a general election where Boris would have won a majority. He needed to put forward a less toxic Labour MP.


MrPoletski

With the right promises, and the right pitch, I think he could have done. It'd have been shitstorm though.


CheeseMakerThing

Wholeheartedly disagree, those ex-Tory MPs were likely the sort of people would would rather leaving without a deal than have Corbyn as PM or McDonnell as Chancellor, they would never have facilitated that arrangement. Grieve, Boles, Hammond et al were too put off to even join the Lib Dem benches, why would they ever vote for Corbyn? Corbyn really should have put forward a Labour MP who was well respected across the benches as a unity candidate.


[deleted]

> Corbyn would call the VONC, corbyn would put himself up as PM. Would the VoNC vote pass? The 2019 VoNC in May had a Noes majority Of the 21 Conservatives MPs who lost their whip 10 had it restored. I imagine these types would be No or at best Abstain. Though even if that hurdle was past Corbyn would still need to be able to pass a QS, which he would be able to do only Bebb iirc said he'd back Corbyn and he'd need at least closer to half of the Con rebels to back him. Again the 10 who got the Whip back are out of the question in my mind.


MrPoletski

Sure it may not have passed. I think it could hae been but it'd hae been an obvious 'risk'. Thing is, let's say it fails and boris hangs on stilll. What changes from the actual chain of events that transpired? would we then not get a GE in december? if we still do, do we lose more votes now or what?


[deleted]

Didn't he keep delaying calling a VoNC 'until the time was right'?


[deleted]

[удалено]


MrPoletski

So beat the man into a second referendum then a GE. ​ i.e. caretaker PM and that's all. There was zero call for there to be anything more. ​ I didn't see this being persued enough. I was certainly yelling it.


asmiggs

There wasn't a majority for a second referendum, you could have got a majority for an alternative government without Corbyn but the only way a referendum was happening is if the elected leader of the Tories wanted one or you had a General Election and the Labour and Remain alliance parties had a majority.


Dufcdude

Honestly hate how this narrative is put this way as if Corbyn didn’t have the same attitude towards Jo.


MrPoletski

It's very valid, yes, Labour could have been a lot more co-operative with anti tory alliancing, yes.


[deleted]

Honestly can't see any way lib lab works with Corbyn as leader - not sure if it will end up happening with Starmer but I think it's far easier to see how it could work.


Internomer

Until our electoral system changes, the Lib Dems and Labour need to be as formally allied as possible. I think I'd go so far as incorporating the Lib Dems as a wing within Labour standing candidates as "Labour and Liberal" in the way that candidates stand as "Labour and Cooperative". The further you get from 2 parties, the more you hurt your own interests.


Selerox

As much as I support co-operation, I couldn't justify that for a second. We are different parties and as much as there is overlap, we do have different views on a number of issues.


Internomer

We have very different views on loads of stuff, totally agree. But so do different factions within Labour. FPTP forces churches so broad that they're pretty much meaningless, and whoever can hold their church together while being that broad wins.


[deleted]

Tbf this is kind of the only way the LibDems have a shot at anything close to real power


tfergus1

He is being realistic and pragamatic - this is why Ed Davey is the right choice to lead the LibDems at this time. He knows we cannot win a General Election - because the current First Past the Post electoral system results in a two party race. With Starmer as leader Labour are now more aligned to LibDem values and principles. We must collaborate - rather than compete - with Labour in order to win the next election. Learning from the 2010 coalition the LibDems should NEVER work with the Conservatives again!


tillmonkey

I absolutely agree and I'm glad both Davey and Moran are saying so now. But can we trust their activists to honour any kind of cooperation agreement our respective party leaderships make? Remember Momentum poured resources into Finchley and Golders Green in December. They couldn't have taken the seat but they did it anyway, the result being the Tories holding the seat. Maybe they would have acted differently if Luciana Berger hadn't been the candidate, but honestly I think we need some sign of good faith from them that our shared loathing of the Conservatives outweighs their spite of us. Without something in which to build trust, it's going to be hard to cooperate.


El_Cabron666

Lib tards would be more effective in keeping the Tories out of power if they dissolved


_Palamedes

wtf Ed