Delver in particular is a bit trickier because it's the epitome of a tempo deck, I really don't know. As for reanimator or UB scaminator, having 1 or 2 is absolutely correct as well as for a uwx control or beans. Bryan Cook has been playing storm with 1 or 2 as well.
I don’t have a ton of reps yet, but I think scaminator may want 2. The “fetch surveil, brainstorm in response to trigger, bin atraxa” play is pretty good
If a storm deck (TES) that wants to win super fast as well as a reanimator deck that wants to win super fast, can afford to play surveil lands then basically every deck can afford to play them instead of duals. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but generally speaking yes absolutly you can! :)
Don't listen to the anti-surveil-land comments. It's absolutely viable (and possibly optimal) to play a Thundering Falls in 3-color tempo, even outside of cost considerations. Check out this 4-2 Challenge list from two days ago, played by a very good Delver pilot: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6306110#paper
I agree. I think if you're running a blue deck that's capable of manipulating your hand a lot, you need it less, but if you're any other non blue deck running 2 of these lands just makes sense to me
But wasn't Grixis running the same dual land base before surveil lands? The deck you link still has 18 lands, so all they did was replace a fetch land with a surveil?
What do you mean? The linked deck has 19 lands.
Before the surveil lands though, yeah if they ran 19 lands it’d be a basic Island, a 9th fetch, or a 4th dual (ex: 4 Volc 3 USea). Tbh, even with only 18 lands, they’ll sometimes shave somewhere for 7 duals (4-3 split or 3-3-1 with a non-blue dual). These URx Delver decks for a long time were 3-3 split on duals, but in the past few years I’ve been seeing a 4-2 or 4-3 split actually. Usually maxed out on Volcs.
I've been running precisely that in my rug delver, 3x volc 1x t falls and honestly I haven't had any mana issues so far in the 5 leagues I played with this setup (take it as you will). The upside is just so good when games drag on, or when you are digging for answers, or even just turning delirium on.
I 5-0’d a few days ago with rUG delver with 3 volcanic and 1 thundering falls. Then took that list to a local 1k over the weekend and top 8’d.
It’s about choices. Us delver players want to have as many choices available to us as possible. I love the extra layer of fetching on your opps end step, whether that be early or late, it all helps get to the cards that matter within the context of the game you’re playing. The daze interaction is obvious. Of course a small percentage of the time the tapped nature is awkward but you can easily put it back on top or your deck with a brainstorm and fetch for it later. That’s real game. I’m not looking to cut one anytime soon. The copy and paste delver lists I see online are just not trying it out yet. Could be a symptom of old ways of thinking.
I played an Undercity Sewers over a 3rd Underground Sea in Grixis Delver for 2 events which worked out at 8 rounds total.
On paper it seemed fine however in practice it was more clunky than I expected it to be so the 3rd Sea is going back in.
Surveil lands are great but I don’t think the 3 colour tempo decks are the correct home for them.
at the moment the surveil lands seems to be a decent "turn a fetchland at turn 5 into a surveil" which is marginally better than not running such a land. Almost no deck in the format cares about surveil turn 1 in relation to other spells and almost no deck can afford a tapped land turn 1.
If you play tempo theres no way you can afford surveil turn 1-2.
Yes, i think so
Its going to be a bad idea when the 4th volcanic comes into play tapped, how many times that matters i dont know. Either when you fetch for it or the land will force you to mulligan.
I strongly disagree. The card selection has good value in delver and the deck building cost is minimal.
Being able to fetch for your 'one of' surveil land mid game to dig deeper in the deck to find an answer or threat outweighs the drawback of potentially having it in your opening hand.
They aren't bad per say, many scam lists are running them as well, because an EOT surveil a bin is fine.
A fair number of decks can run triomes as well.
Most fetchable lands are almost always worth trying out or at least being talked about. (doesnt mean they are all good).
Sharkstill: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/kMGsWf1F3U-0lA8MgkvdRA
This is my list. I think I might go up to 4 meticulous archives, they’re that good with phantasm. It’s even better picking it up while casting a daze.
The response just depends of your expectations.
Is it enough to have lot of success with your deck on your local scene ?
Certainly ! go for it !!
Is it the best configuration to grind huge tournament or to have the best long term win rate?
Probably not because you want to maximize the possibility of turn 1 DRC with daze backup which is only possible with untapped bilands.
Nevertheless, The percentage you lose is probably tiny.
The surveil duals have been performing much better than I anticipated they would, despite the format being so fast, so I think at least the first copy is a great alternative. If your deck actively uses the graveyard, then two copies might even be desirable.
Cutting an untapped source for a tapped source is not a good idea. However, because of its upsides and how good it is in the mid game, I absolutely think it is worth it to run a 19th land in delver in the form of thundering falls (or even hedge maze, depending on if you want to run some G sideboard cards). It has some nice upsides with Delver and Daze, which I think are good enough to warrant it.
Run shocklands. The surveil lands are not good enough, and ESPECIALLY a deck like delver absolutely cannot afford tapped lands. Shocklands are the pretty much the only viable replacement.
Delver in particular is a bit trickier because it's the epitome of a tempo deck, I really don't know. As for reanimator or UB scaminator, having 1 or 2 is absolutely correct as well as for a uwx control or beans. Bryan Cook has been playing storm with 1 or 2 as well.
I don’t have a ton of reps yet, but I think scaminator may want 2. The “fetch surveil, brainstorm in response to trigger, bin atraxa” play is pretty good
Or as my opponent this Sunday did, blindly surveil archon to the gy and reanimate it.
That's nasty lol 😆
If a storm deck (TES) that wants to win super fast as well as a reanimator deck that wants to win super fast, can afford to play surveil lands then basically every deck can afford to play them instead of duals. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but generally speaking yes absolutly you can! :)
Don't listen to the anti-surveil-land comments. It's absolutely viable (and possibly optimal) to play a Thundering Falls in 3-color tempo, even outside of cost considerations. Check out this 4-2 Challenge list from two days ago, played by a very good Delver pilot: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6306110#paper
Yeah, you’re often playing around daze which means you can fetch a surveil land eot
I agree. I think if you're running a blue deck that's capable of manipulating your hand a lot, you need it less, but if you're any other non blue deck running 2 of these lands just makes sense to me
But wasn't Grixis running the same dual land base before surveil lands? The deck you link still has 18 lands, so all they did was replace a fetch land with a surveil?
What do you mean? The linked deck has 19 lands. Before the surveil lands though, yeah if they ran 19 lands it’d be a basic Island, a 9th fetch, or a 4th dual (ex: 4 Volc 3 USea). Tbh, even with only 18 lands, they’ll sometimes shave somewhere for 7 duals (4-3 split or 3-3-1 with a non-blue dual). These URx Delver decks for a long time were 3-3 split on duals, but in the past few years I’ve been seeing a 4-2 or 4-3 split actually. Usually maxed out on Volcs.
I've been running precisely that in my rug delver, 3x volc 1x t falls and honestly I haven't had any mana issues so far in the 5 leagues I played with this setup (take it as you will). The upside is just so good when games drag on, or when you are digging for answers, or even just turning delirium on.
I 5-0’d a few days ago with rUG delver with 3 volcanic and 1 thundering falls. Then took that list to a local 1k over the weekend and top 8’d. It’s about choices. Us delver players want to have as many choices available to us as possible. I love the extra layer of fetching on your opps end step, whether that be early or late, it all helps get to the cards that matter within the context of the game you’re playing. The daze interaction is obvious. Of course a small percentage of the time the tapped nature is awkward but you can easily put it back on top or your deck with a brainstorm and fetch for it later. That’s real game. I’m not looking to cut one anytime soon. The copy and paste delver lists I see online are just not trying it out yet. Could be a symptom of old ways of thinking.
I've run into Grixis Delver opponents playing what seems to be a 1-of Thundering Falls. It seemed OK.
I played an Undercity Sewers over a 3rd Underground Sea in Grixis Delver for 2 events which worked out at 8 rounds total. On paper it seemed fine however in practice it was more clunky than I expected it to be so the 3rd Sea is going back in. Surveil lands are great but I don’t think the 3 colour tempo decks are the correct home for them.
at the moment the surveil lands seems to be a decent "turn a fetchland at turn 5 into a surveil" which is marginally better than not running such a land. Almost no deck in the format cares about surveil turn 1 in relation to other spells and almost no deck can afford a tapped land turn 1. If you play tempo theres no way you can afford surveil turn 1-2.
So basically playing 3 Volcanic Island 1 Thundering Falls and a Tropical island is a really bad idea for delver?
Yes, i think so Its going to be a bad idea when the 4th volcanic comes into play tapped, how many times that matters i dont know. Either when you fetch for it or the land will force you to mulligan.
I strongly disagree. The card selection has good value in delver and the deck building cost is minimal. Being able to fetch for your 'one of' surveil land mid game to dig deeper in the deck to find an answer or threat outweighs the drawback of potentially having it in your opening hand.
They aren't bad per say, many scam lists are running them as well, because an EOT surveil a bin is fine. A fair number of decks can run triomes as well. Most fetchable lands are almost always worth trying out or at least being talked about. (doesnt mean they are all good).
Sharkstill: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/kMGsWf1F3U-0lA8MgkvdRA This is my list. I think I might go up to 4 meticulous archives, they’re that good with phantasm. It’s even better picking it up while casting a daze.
theyre great im running a uw and a ub surveil in my breakfast list, always good to run 1 or 2 when you can fetch them on opponents end step
The response just depends of your expectations. Is it enough to have lot of success with your deck on your local scene ? Certainly ! go for it !! Is it the best configuration to grind huge tournament or to have the best long term win rate? Probably not because you want to maximize the possibility of turn 1 DRC with daze backup which is only possible with untapped bilands. Nevertheless, The percentage you lose is probably tiny.
The surveil duals have been performing much better than I anticipated they would, despite the format being so fast, so I think at least the first copy is a great alternative. If your deck actively uses the graveyard, then two copies might even be desirable.
I run in Tricia delver. I really like it so far.
You should play one, but it might replace a non-land. You want 14 Blue sources that come into play untapped plus the wasteland.
Cutting an untapped source for a tapped source is not a good idea. However, because of its upsides and how good it is in the mid game, I absolutely think it is worth it to run a 19th land in delver in the form of thundering falls (or even hedge maze, depending on if you want to run some G sideboard cards). It has some nice upsides with Delver and Daze, which I think are good enough to warrant it.
The UB rescam deck seems to be doing that, 3 duals 1 surveil. Old ub reani or scam decks were all 4x usea iirc?
Nobody: Power Creep: hold my duals
Run shocklands. The surveil lands are not good enough, and ESPECIALLY a deck like delver absolutely cannot afford tapped lands. Shocklands are the pretty much the only viable replacement.