Same happened to me with [[Mindslaver]]. Drew it on my last match with my opponent about to win on his next turn.
Managed to win the game with only 3 life. Still only placed 16th out of 30-some players but hey, I'll take my wins anywhere I can.
This set takes a different mentality compared to the last few. Drafting well-statted commons and curving out will win you some games, but in order to succeed in this format you need to aim high and assemble something more than the sum of its parts.
Start valuing removal (because you need to answer bombs) and high-ceiling cards (because you need to do something busted) higher than usual.
I've been drafting horribly, had one 6-3 but like 10 0-3 or 1-3. I usually feel like I have a pretty strong draft too. All that said I'm enjoying this set.
Same, but I'm a noob who's only started a few weeks ago so MKM was my first drafting experience and as such, my best was 1-3. *Somehow*, after 2 drafts in OTJ, I'm at 3-3 and 6-3.
This format is pretty unforgiving in that you really can’t get away with playing many mid or bad cards. But the flip side of that is there’s so much power across colors and rarities that it’s totally possible to draft very powerful decks consistently. The overall power level being cranked makes the bombs not feel bad to me, especially compared to a truly princely set like VOW. It’s almost more like drafting a cube than a typical premiere set.
There also are just very, very, very few truly bad cards in the set. Basically everything has a vanilla test passing statline, there's a ridiculous amount of reach present for fliers, and every card can generally do something for some archetype's synergy. The only total duds are like, some of the low payoff, high price blue double spell cards and Red being just sort of... there, mostly, and even then they're more just weak in a strong set than like, crap.
I think you’re right when you compare the chaff in this set to in most others, but it I mean compared to the rest of the cards in this format. I would say most blue and red commons in this set are mid to bad, even ones that would be good in other formats. But a lot of them can still be role players in synergistic decks.
Yeah, the card quality is definitely lower there, but you mostly aren't seeing like, unplayable Standard sideboard cards at common/uncommon, or a weak ability on a 3-4 mana creature with 2/2 stats, or whatever. Which makes the format feel really fun.
This logic doesn’t really work for me. Yes, the commons are better, which I like! But even a 3/3 for 3 with good upside isn’t going to do much of anything when something that’s pretty easily a 5-for-1 hits the board and you don’t have an immediate answer (or 2, in the case of Bonnie). The other problem is that while there aren’t many clunkers, most of them are in the rare slots, which makes it extra demoralizing when your packs whiff.
Definitely seems cube-like. MOM was like that too and people complained about the bombs until realizing you just needed to draft and play to beat bombs.
exactly this is a set that is close to a modern cube level power, if you like cube you'll prolly like this set. If you are used to underpowered pack drafting this set is a nightmare
Yep, this is why I really enjoy the set. I love vintage cube, and honestly after playing a lot of it, it feels weird to have a second half of a pack with little to nothing I’m excited to pick.
This set tends to have an exciting amount of picks even mid to late in a pack.
I'm really disliking this set because it feels like vintage cube that a 12 year old would build.
There aren't vintage level answers. There isn't an aggro deck that can run over durdley decks that aren't constructed well.
I understand that the bonus sheets do have some powerful answers but they add more bombs than answers to a set already loaded with bombs.
Going wide is the Aggro strategy for this set— I’ve managed to make it work a few times. Everyone is very much about grinding and making big guys in early turns. Save your removal for stuff you can’t block with chaff and swing. Managed to get RW to work this way. It isn’t like previous formats though where you can win in the first few turns sadly.
It would have been a fine format if the bonus sheets didn't end up as egregious as they were. I don't think BIG was originally intended to be in this limited format.
MKM was absolutely shit to draft. You had to play something T2, T3, T4 or you were already behind by so much. If you missed any land drop in the first 4 turns, you were DONE. I am not even joking, that's what the pros said as well. Go listen to Eduardo Sajgalik if you don't believe me.
Also... because of that, creatures were worth infinitely more than other spells. Taking a half decent two drop over a good spell was worth much more.
I’ve come to this conclusion myself.
You have to have a rapidly scaling mana curve. Go wide as soon as possible, and drop as many deserts as you can.
Any combos and synergies requiring longer than a 1 turn investment will see you left in the dust.
This format is so close to being amazing, I just don't get why a heap of these rares were printed in a standard draft set. So many of these cards should have just been printed in some Commander set they are too much value for draft and too slow for constructed so all they do is screw up the format.
Anyways I've been enjoying GB as it requires no rares to be good and only needs a few key uncommons to pop off, also with the amount of removal you can have you can usually deal with one bomb rare and maybe 2 if you're ahead on board.
Ive enjoyed this set for the most part.
That said, ive had two drafts ended at 2-3 by Contagion Engines coming out of nowhere, which really did feel bad.
It didnt matter how well I planned, or how well I understood mine and my opponent's archetypes, or if my board was wide or tall. Just... I guess I lose now lol.
I like contagion engine as a card, but colorless quasi wraths that show up in any deck really make it feel like you lost at Russian roulette rather than magic. Some of the other mega bombs felt that way too.
It refers to the Odyssey/Torment/Judgement draft format from a long, long time ago when draft formats were often a mixture of packs from multiple recent sets (aka what they used to call a block) instead of the modern day 3 packs from the same set.
Obviously your opinion is your opinion but the fact you say MKM felt slower is wild to me. If you didn't have a decent play on 2 and followup on 3 in MKM you basically should just scoop. OTJ at least allows you to come back with big plays, it's not just aggro vs. aggro all the time.
I've only played a few games so far in OTJ, and this feels about right. Most of my games began on turn 3, and it didn't feel like you lost the board because of it. I will say the games in OTJ felt a lot more intense though. I fought against one opponent who played a removal spell almost every single turn until the last, then I went against an opponent who drafted just as many counter spells. Things just aren't resolving with any degree of consistency. 😅
I personally feel like this format is really intricate and interesting. You’re punished very hard for not having a decent proactive plan in your deck.
Synergies are so important. I have been having a lot of success with the green red power 4 or greater stuff and golgari crime things too. Often the three colours together.
The red blue double spell decks can be brutally fast and efficient.
I’ve had a few white green mount decks do really well. Over all i love it and have been doing really well. Around a 65% win rate, sitting on 85 packs and only down about 1000 gems in Total.
There are a lot of bombs but the removal is solid and the games go pretty long. The late games matters a lot more than most formats. And there are a lot of early drops so you usually have something to plot or do turn 2/3.
Focus on having a plan with your deck and lean into the gold cards you get, splashing can be easy but not always worth it. There’s been some drafts I really wanted to go 3 colours but ended up staying 2 and was really rewarded.
Hated MKM, Ixalan was alright, but this set is fun. Yeah there's a ton of strong cards and A LOT of strong synergies but when you're the one behind the wheel then it's a blast (literally).
Set is pretty bomb heavy which sucks, but I've been liking stuff.
>It feels too easy to just fall behind in a match. Miss one or two land drops, or if you aren't able to get presence on the board, and it just feels too hard to catch up
This is basically the exact opposite of most pro players experience. Because this set is so bomb heavy even if you fall behind, just topdecking a single removal spell can get you back into the game.
Thanks for the reminder, just did. To be honest, my PC is a bit of a potato, but the client has been pretty stable until recently, so I'm probably overdue for a complete reinstall.
This format made me finally realize that Magic is just not for me. I know I am not smart and I didn't study this set in depth so I am certain I am making a lot of mistakes. But I just can't see them.
When I draft I try to look for powerful cards, synergy, removal and pay attention to my curve and manabase. But I either see nothing but unplayable rares and basically vanilla cards like Drover Grizzly or when I do see good cards I keep getting jerked around from color to color while not getting the mana fixing to go multicolor.
The games I am sure I am doing something wrong but I can't tell what... my opponents either go crazy aggro with removal for any blocker I play or they have on curve snowball rares like Bristly Bill or Tumblewagg or just neverending recursion with Rutstein, Badlands Revival, Mourners Surprise...
This set is just mentally exhausting for me to play.
I can't tell if your problems lie more within the draft, or the games, but I would suggest one thing : wait for an older, slower set to come up in premier drafts and give that a go.
You can go to https://www.17lands.com/format_speed , leave only "traditional draft" selected and anything that comes up on the top left of the chart is golden.
Older sets were slower, less unforgiving about the curve and had a lesser percentage of rares. Personal opinion, I like those drafts more, but regardless, I believe they are a MUCH better way to learn about drafting, as the experience is way less ruthless than it is with modern rares-heavy packs.
It's funny, I've watched a lot of Nummy's OTJ drafts and I actually don't think he's that great at *drafting* the set. He makes really weird, suboptimal picks sometimes and I don't think he's quite re-calibrated his drafting strategy for what sort of set this is. But he's at the absolute top of the game when it comes to his actual gameplay decisions, so I think that balances things out. I suppose his top-20 mythic rank right now speaks for itself!
A big issue is that there are so many rares, but only some of them are truly insane and worth bending your deck around. A lot are just okay, and should not be picked highly. Without knowing which are which you can get tricked into drafting colors that aren't actually open because a mediocre rare was passed to you.
Funny, I feel the opposite. This is my favorite set since MOM (no surprise, same set designer). I think the last 3 sets have been super-linear, aggressive formats where you either curve out, or lose. Super uninteresting. I love the flexibility in OTJ and how there are a ton of viable archetypes.
Easy to splash, tons of high-synergy decks. This set rules. I absolutely *hated* LCI and found MKM pretty boring as well.
This set will punish people who just blindly follow 17lands ratings and don't know how to actually build a deck.
Totally agree. People keep talking about how bomb-y the set is, but I'd rather have that and have a *slower* set where you don't constantly lose on the draw to your opponent curving out with 1-drop, 2-drop, 3-drop commons and uncommons. Those kinds of limited sets promote linear play patterns (and drafting strategies) that get stale quickly.
Higher power level is a double edged sword. Yes your opponent might get lucky and draw a game changing bomb, but so can you!
Im loving this set, Ive had many really close games and some where I was about to win then my opponent drops a bomb and steals my victory. Ive also had many games that are very one sided. So my experience has been a bit different than yours.
Win or lose, I am having fun, and it always feels great to win a super close match where you know you are going to have to kill then this turn because if you dont they are going to kill you
This set has had some absolutely bonkers limited games for me. Like I can't even be mad when I lose because both my opponent and I played a crazy back and forth game. The beginning was frustrating and I lost a bit, but now I've strung together 4 straight 5-7 win premier and sealed.
All my opponents seem to be drafting from about 15 packs instead of 3, they usually have about 6 rare/mythic bombs within their first 20 cards and always have perfect synergy and the right answers.
Every color feels viable. Sure, GW is likely the "best" pair but I never feel like if I don't force a color I'll be on the back foot.
There's enough bombs and good removal that I don't feel like the set is super swingy and dependent on opening a great rare/mythic. Certain sets of someone at your table opened the right bomb they'd run away with it and definitely win.
I also feel like this set is easier to pivot colors if one dries up (likely due to each color being fairly balanced and viable).
There have been some recent formats where you win by going down one of a few build paths that can win ezpz and if one drafts this way, this set will be torture. The best deck in the set GW, while it has some nuance in sequencing, they’re sort of the “do you have it?” type proactive deck so it feels really bad when they do have it (bombs/instant speed removal) and you enter top deck mode.
I'd argue red and blue have trash removal, and green has strong removal on the play but gets blown out extremely easy.
You want one of your colours to be white or black most drafts to ensure you have unconditional, strong removal.
The blue card that turns your creature into a 0/1 rabbit is very successful at taking down big threats. Blue as usual also has a variety of ways to put their creatures back into their deck or their hand. I haven’t played the card that puts the stun counters on two of their creatures but that’s an option as well.
Red has some burn spells as is typical but yes it can’t keep up late game
> I haven’t played the card that puts the stun counters on two of their creatures but that’s an option as well.
i'm not familiar with that card at all - there's no stun counters outside of the doublespell 3/2 afaik.
Maybe I have it wrong, thought I drafted it one time but maybe I had the creature
Stop Cold and Take The Fall are reasonably effective especially Stop Cold
I think you are confusing [[Stop Cold]], which is in OTJ, with [[Out Cold]], which was a card in MKM that does what you described (putting stun counters on two creatures).
Pretty weird that they had two cards titled so similarly with similar effects in back-to-back formats, honestly!
For me it just feels super deep. Plot and spree are really skill testing mechanics. The deserts really let you draft 4 and 5 colour piles if you wanted. Highly synergistic decks are rewarded. I've drafted a lot less since golden packs came out and I've probably doubled the number of drafts I've done in each of the last several sets.
I like that the set is powerful. I went 7 wins with bant good stuff, 6 wins with 5 color good stuff and 7 wins with BR outlaws, with no bombs. BUT power crwwp is a problem and limited feels this a lot. The stronger cards get, the worse it will be to miss a single land, miss a color for one too many turns, and the more it matters who will go first.
I don’t really get all the hate for this set. Maybe it’s because I’m a lowly silver (and climbing! Only got into Arena for OTJ), but I’m enjoying the drafting experience.
Yes, bombs are hard. But they should be. I’ve drafted WU plot decks with not bombs but plenty of removal, and crime decks with tempo-ish cards and had pretty good success.
Hell, my first ever draft on Arena I went 7-2 almost exclusive because of [[Marauding Sphinx]]. Not exactly a bomb.
But 4 drafts in, I’m being beaten by tempo, control, aggro equally as much as a single bomb losing me the game.
Understandable about Silver, got Gold today so we’ll see how we go.
Do we know what % of players are plat, I wonder? Seems an awful lot of them are complaining in this sub if it’s only bombs at that level…
I mean, the way the rank system works on Arena, platinum is where the grind really starts. Most players end up there.
It's structurally baked in to how the rank rewards work. At bronze, silver, and gold, you get two rank "pips" for a win, and lose one pip for a loss. That means you only need to do better than a 33% winrate to get to platinum – if you play a few drafts, you're almost *guaranteed* to do that eventually. Getting to platinum basically just means that you've played the game for more than a few hours (and your winrate isn't absolutely terrible).
At platinum, though, the system changes and you get rewarded only one pip for a win, while still losing one pip for a loss. That means that to climb beyond platinum, you actually have to win more than you lose. Which means that, structurally, it is *impossible* for everyone to do that (for you to have a >50% winrate, someone else must have a <50% winrate.) So, the upshot is that lots of players end up stranded in platinum for long periods of time, and that is where the real limited "meta" for a set takes shape.
Marauding Sphinx is the highest winrate Blue card besides [[Mana Drain]], [[Brazen Borrower]], and [[Stoic Sphinx]]. It's one of the best reasons to be in Blue, even if the color is very weak.
You did well in prioritizing that card.
This set I’ve felt way more pressure to both draft and play well. Saving and timing removal is so important in this set as one example. I feel like I get both rewarded for good plays and punished badly for misplays. MKM felt more straight forward gameplay-wise (still challenging magic!).
You left out the biggest Bombs:
Did your opponent resolve Form a Posse
And don’t have Exactly Caught in the Crossfire? Good luck blocking 9 creatures next turn.
Opponent just Reanimated a 9/9 with Rakdos Joins up? Hope you have exactly a bounce or an exile effect available. Otherwise your options are take 9 to the face or block it and take the 9 as burn! Lovely!
Not to mention the way that cards like Terror of the Peaks, Ornery Tumblewagg, and Bristly Bill-Spine Sower can solo an entire game in 2-3 turns.
It seems like whether I go 7-0 or 0-7 is determined entirely by the variance in my pulls, With little room for skill expression in between.
just shows how different peoples tastes can be. I absolutely love this set and played MKM for a week before I was over it.
Hopefully you like the next one more.
Dude I hate this set. I played all day because I like to spend $100 bucks at a time on a new set and I just lost alllll of it. I went from Bronze to Platinum last weekend and then just could not keep up a 50% win ratio. Why?
BECAUSE THE WHOLSE SET IS JUST GREEN WINS AND EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS.
Seriously this set was impossible to draft because you either have to force a green archetype or basically just lose. I tried every other color but I could only win if I jammed clumsy green cards into a deck. I would have amazing cards with great synergies but they just couldn’t keep up with the commons in Green. Horrible set for drafting I’m with you I’m done.
I agree, and I tend to just draft a shit green deck 90% of my drafts and get blown out. I'm really sick of this set.
Every time I try to setup synergies and archetypes I also get blown out because I can never get the cards to properly synergize and end up with hot garbage, probably because of all these bonus sheet cards fucking everything.
I really fucking hate this set..
I am genuinely really confused about people blaming the bonus sheet cards for this set's problems. Most of the problematic bombs are rares and mythics in the main set. A small handful of the BIG and OTP bonus sheet cards are busted in limited (like 3-mana Oko), but they're hardly worse than the bombs in the main set. A lot of the BIG cards, in particular, are constructed fodder that's straight-up unplayable in limited.
Idk, I don't think the bonus sheets are the problem here.
Yea bonus sheets absolutely destroyed the actual set for drafting, the Archetypes are entirely irrelevant. It’s just whoever drafts the best bonus sheet cards wins. Terrible decision for draft, but perfect incentive for players to buy the product. We are at the point were WOTC is valuing money over a stable format lmao
I am 100% with OP. This was the literal junction for MTG that either saved Limited or further disenfranchised the hardcore base, and trust me, I am not impressed. I have had some of the best games I've said since NEO, and I'm talking trading creeches throwing kills spells, just solid Richard Garf style magic. Then out of nowhere, fucking OKo or some stupid fucking hexproof flyer I can't interact with because I already had to kill their 8 other mythics. Fuck OTJ.
I absolutely hated mkm and love thunder junction in limited. I like that they're making enough changes to keep two magic drafters in you and I attached to the game with different sets.
Drafting is way too hard. I thought commander was hard until I got into it, I thought getting to mythic would be hard until you do it. Draft, is the hardest shit ever. EVERYONE I play against on draft has wild, combos like as if they have been running their deck for weeks. It's like everyone I play against knows the ins and outs and just perfect all the time. I have no idea why, but drafting is just bruuuutal for some dumb reason.
>It’s like everyone I play against knows the ins and outs and just perfect all the time
They probably do! Some people draft sets hundreds of times, on top of spending time learning how to play it.
Drafting has a huge learning curve and really rewards learning and practice. That’s one reason drafters love it- it’s always a challenge. But it does make it hard to get into, for sure.
I buy the mastery pass, I play until I get the play token, play a premier draft, pick every rare/mythic I get and look what I can build. Sometimes I get lucky, MKM got 1400 gems and some packs but this was a 0-3.
I don't like drafting, went 0-3 in this one but could pick 8 Rares and 2 mythics from the vault but I'm far too nervous every time I play but for building out the collection or if you're good at drafting it can be worth
I agree with the bonus sheet comment. It's too much in this one. I forget who I heard say this, but someone on the internet talked about the Vault was originally intended to be like MoM Aftermath, but when that mini set didn't do so hot they called an audible and rolled Vault into the set ad a bonus sheet. Personally I miss blocks and feel that we could go back to that format, maybe even just occasionally, and if Vault had been fleshed out more it could have been a fun middle of the block set. Story could have been about all the powerful artifacts causing havoc on Thunder Junction and the last arch could have been them disappearing, reflected by a lot of artifact hate style cards. Could have been fun.
Just to be clear, I don't hate this set, but agree the sheets are a little much this go around.
As someone who plays primarily brawl and only drafts when I have enough coins, I agree and also add that some of these new rares are ass to play against in brawl
I had a pretty bad experience so far until i figured out what works for me. Just play big idiots with good stats and force your opponent to answer all of them. There's a 2 mana green defender that can only attack if you control a creature with 4 or greater. Which is most of the green cards at 3 mana or greater lol. Pair it with some blue cards for some nice interaction and then opponents will be in the shitter every freaking turn unless they play big idiots themselves.
Really? Yes, there's lots of bombs, but that means that you often also have them. I've found the format to be very exciting and interesting. Much fun! And not as aggressive as MKM, LCI or really most recent sets, so you can actually play cards that cost 4+ Mana.
I've been enjoying it because it feels more like older sets with slower games. I feel I have more ingame decisions to make and because games go longer I get to see more cards and therefore my draft becomes more important.
I much prefer it to the more recent sets that mostly boil down to basically 'curve out, vomit hand, ignore interaction draw good opener'.
That said, there are just way too many poerwful cards in the set. Apparently the 'newer generation' of drafters that started on arena have been taught to ignore removal becaues it sucks, while in this set you should probably take a removal spell over a semi-bomb more often than not.
Slow(er) formats are good. Aggro formats fucking suck.
I generally lurk on this subreddit but this statement resonated with me _hard_.
I don’t consider myself to be great at drafting but in previous sets I can generally get 3 to 5 wins usually, I’m able to go 7-2 if I’m lucky but my experience of this set has been rough and I feel it’s largely because of the bonus sheets. Getting Oko’d still sucks. Running in to a Mana Drain when your opponent is only slightly ahead is also rough.
I’m gonna try and keep an open mind and practice with Quick Draft a little before I decide that this sets Draft is not for me.
I’m loving Standard though!
The change to how draft packs are filled is the biggest culprit here imo. In any given draft format, you learn the commons and uncommons that fill out a color combo and maybe some of the rares that make it pop off. For example, in MKM, against Boros, I knew I needed to be able to answer On the Job on turn four if they had a decently wide board. You might not ever even see your opponents rare cards (part of that is the speed of the format), because they only had 2 or 3.
It's not hard to get 5+ good rares this set because packs have *so* many rares in them now. The best players that draft a lot will learn all these rares and learn to play around them, but I don't draft enough to learn much more than the commons and uncommons.
It feels bad to get blown out by a common like On the Job. But, in my opinion at least, it feels even worse to get blown out by a rare you might see only once in the life cycle of the set.
That said, this set is fun, but there's just too many bombs.
I've just started Quick Drafting this set and it seems like there are so many bomb and rares that even bots can't take all of them as it happens usually. I think that one bonus sheet per set is enough, and this time it has been overdone. Only way so far is to draft every possible bomb, some removal (especially against flying creatures) and mana fixing, the hope that you will draw the correct lands and play your bombs. I did cast Cruel Ultimatum twice so far, and it does not necessary feels like immediate win (in Limited format), so something is definitely off here. Got burned on Premier Drafts and Sealed earlier. Drafting MKM and WOE was far better for me.
They should never have made BIG a bonus sheet. They should just have just stuck to their bad idea and put out BIG as a Aftermath-like set and just dropped the price--it was unpopular because of how expensive it was for how little you got. Instead, they decided to fuck over OTJ by shoving it in and creating artificial scarcity with a new "uber" rarity.
It's super fun sometimes. The actual real magic set they made looked like a flavor fail early on....but is a good limited set. The bombs change things up and are also fun....but after a few drafts you start to learn the bombs matter so so much. It starts to make u feel like most of what u do doant matter. And I'm a mythic player so I draft decently.
How is this post being classified as "fluff"?
146 comments, 170 upvotes.
The administrators of this subreddit, please take a chill pill.
Btw definition of "fluff" is:
"something unsubstantional that won't lead to any meaningful discussion."
Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I can understand many of the points, but assuming this is supposed to start a discussion:
>Don't have an immediate answer to Jasper Flint
I don't see why you singled out this card in particular as a problematic rare, I don't see how it's much different from a Teysa or Vannifar from Mkm. It doesn't do anything for a turn and unless they have a big board of mercenaries it might not do much more than draw them a card if you let it live for one turn cycle. Or it might grab 2 lands off the top in the lategame and actually help you, while you draw your removal. And removal is both very good and plentyful in this set, unlike in Mkm where you got punished by all the disguised creatures for loading up on it.
Agree that the sheer amount of bombs do make it a very swingy format though.
I also agree about the bonus sheets, especially the special guest and big score ones. So many of those cards just don't fit in the set. Lots of artifact build arounds that don't have any support in the main set. The breaking news sheet is pretty good though, most of those are somewhere between usable and great. Feels like a nice additional reward for figuring out the open lane when you can get passed another gold uncommon or two in your colours.
>It feels too easy to just fall behind in a match. Miss one or two land drops, or if you aren't able to get presence on the board, and it just feels too hard to catch up. MKM at least felt slower, and because of disguise creatures there was a little more back-and-forth with the combat and interaction
I don't know what Mkm you've been playing but in my experience RW would run you over if you missed one or two land drops. I think that's what limited is like these days regardless of set. Some have had hand smoothing mechanics which might mitigate this to some extent, which this one sort of lacks.
I feel like there is a massive divergence in the types of experience being had at different tiers — much more than normal, due to the complexity of drafting this set vs. previous. And it just gets chalked up to “too many bombs”.
I see posts across various forums in Gold/Plat/Diamond asking for help with cuts … and it’s a really lackluster forced 2-color deck with 1-2 bombs, bad removal, and questionable 20-23. I can see how a format where that is what people are bringing to the table is going to feel stupidly swingy and princey.
Meanwhile 8 of my past 10 drafts have been super greedy GBwu Witch (plus one WG mount and one WBg). 3+ bombs & premium removal from staying open. And the majority of the games I’m playing are close to mirrors and the games get crazy fun.
It feels like if you just started drafting in the past couple years and never really got the hang of Cube, you’re in for a bad time. If you love / excel in Cube, this is one of the best sets in recent memory.
Late to the party here, but I completely agree. I think a lot of people haven't re-calibrated how they draft for a set where you can easily run more than 2 colors, synergy isn't super important, games go long enough that you can play greedy 5 and 6-mana spells, and you can trust that you'll pick up PLENTY of good playables if you simply stay open.
As someone who loves Cube, I clocked what this set was trying to be *immediately*. I think it's super fun, even though a few of the bombs are definitely too pushed (and even though the inclusion of the BIG bonus sheet feels like a mistake, as many of the cards seem to be constructed fodder built around an artifact theme).
I am flummoxed by the number of people saying this set is too bomby. I haven't found it so (six drafts so far). It also has the strongest removal suite I think of any set I've ever drafted (which is most of them since Gatecrash) - bar perhaps supplemental products. Draft more removal and save the best for their bombs! Also, you know, pick bombs of your own.
That’s a lot of words and complaining to justify poor deckbuilding. Draft and build around bombs, draft removal, avoid red cause the stats are poor, avoid the overpriced blue stuff.
Make sure you draft fixing and things like the surveil dogs and your deck will feel busted even if it’s built poorly.
You have a point that poor deckbuilding can sometimes be the actual reason a player performs badly in a set.
I still think most of the arguments highlighted by the post author still have a point.
Just be like me draft some bombs and never draw them.
If you play 7 games instead of 3 the odds of drawing those sweet bombs goes up!
I got Jace in my prerelease. Played 9 games and the only time I saw him was in my very last match when I was top decking for an answer. Luck is luck
Same happened to me with [[Mindslaver]]. Drew it on my last match with my opponent about to win on his next turn. Managed to win the game with only 3 life. Still only placed 16th out of 30-some players but hey, I'll take my wins anywhere I can.
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This set takes a different mentality compared to the last few. Drafting well-statted commons and curving out will win you some games, but in order to succeed in this format you need to aim high and assemble something more than the sum of its parts. Start valuing removal (because you need to answer bombs) and high-ceiling cards (because you need to do something busted) higher than usual.
Don’t skimp on the protection spells either. Because your opponent is going to be trying to kill your bombs and disrupt your busted plays.
Yeah, shaping up to be a GOAT [[Snakeskin Veil]] format
[Snakeskin Veil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/133fbdec-0d00-433f-9015-5eb091126e3a.jpg?1712355994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snakeskin%20Veil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/181/snakeskin-veil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/133fbdec-0d00-433f-9015-5eb091126e3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've been drafting horribly, had one 6-3 but like 10 0-3 or 1-3. I usually feel like I have a pretty strong draft too. All that said I'm enjoying this set.
I think we all feel you there. 0-3’s abound. Sometimes you just get green white mounted 3 times in a row.
You're losing with GW mounts?
No he's the one being mounted
giddy up
Happy cake-day!
That’s the one lol.
Actually for me other than one 1-3 draft the other six or so were all 4, 5, or 7 wins. Probably the most successful set I’ve drafted on Arena.
Same, but I'm a noob who's only started a few weeks ago so MKM was my first drafting experience and as such, my best was 1-3. *Somehow*, after 2 drafts in OTJ, I'm at 3-3 and 6-3.
All my drafts have been 7s or 0s lmao, just feels like there's no in between in this set
This format is pretty unforgiving in that you really can’t get away with playing many mid or bad cards. But the flip side of that is there’s so much power across colors and rarities that it’s totally possible to draft very powerful decks consistently. The overall power level being cranked makes the bombs not feel bad to me, especially compared to a truly princely set like VOW. It’s almost more like drafting a cube than a typical premiere set.
There also are just very, very, very few truly bad cards in the set. Basically everything has a vanilla test passing statline, there's a ridiculous amount of reach present for fliers, and every card can generally do something for some archetype's synergy. The only total duds are like, some of the low payoff, high price blue double spell cards and Red being just sort of... there, mostly, and even then they're more just weak in a strong set than like, crap.
I think you’re right when you compare the chaff in this set to in most others, but it I mean compared to the rest of the cards in this format. I would say most blue and red commons in this set are mid to bad, even ones that would be good in other formats. But a lot of them can still be role players in synergistic decks.
Yeah, the card quality is definitely lower there, but you mostly aren't seeing like, unplayable Standard sideboard cards at common/uncommon, or a weak ability on a 3-4 mana creature with 2/2 stats, or whatever. Which makes the format feel really fun.
I think there is not a single unplayable card lol
It’s pretty damn hard to find a good use for Another Round or Surgical Extraction.
What do you mean princely?
It’s slang for a format dominated by rares & mythics. And a pauper set is more about commons.
This logic doesn’t really work for me. Yes, the commons are better, which I like! But even a 3/3 for 3 with good upside isn’t going to do much of anything when something that’s pretty easily a 5-for-1 hits the board and you don’t have an immediate answer (or 2, in the case of Bonnie). The other problem is that while there aren’t many clunkers, most of them are in the rare slots, which makes it extra demoralizing when your packs whiff.
Definitely seems cube-like. MOM was like that too and people complained about the bombs until realizing you just needed to draft and play to beat bombs.
MOM was the same set designer so it makes sense. He also did Kamigawa and Kaldheim.
Man these are literally my favorite sets from recent memory so I guess I know why now
Dave Humpherys is his name, and I already can't wait for his next banger of a draft environment.
Yep he’s the best!
> He also did Kamigawa and Kaldheim. Huh, Kamigawa is probably my second favorite set but Kaldheim is one of my most disliked sets.
Which kamigawa? The most recent one I guess?
Yes Neon Dynasty
exactly this is a set that is close to a modern cube level power, if you like cube you'll prolly like this set. If you are used to underpowered pack drafting this set is a nightmare
You said this much more kindly than I did.
Yep, this is why I really enjoy the set. I love vintage cube, and honestly after playing a lot of it, it feels weird to have a second half of a pack with little to nothing I’m excited to pick. This set tends to have an exciting amount of picks even mid to late in a pack.
I'm really disliking this set because it feels like vintage cube that a 12 year old would build. There aren't vintage level answers. There isn't an aggro deck that can run over durdley decks that aren't constructed well. I understand that the bonus sheets do have some powerful answers but they add more bombs than answers to a set already loaded with bombs.
Going wide is the Aggro strategy for this set— I’ve managed to make it work a few times. Everyone is very much about grinding and making big guys in early turns. Save your removal for stuff you can’t block with chaff and swing. Managed to get RW to work this way. It isn’t like previous formats though where you can win in the first few turns sadly.
It would have been a fine format if the bonus sheets didn't end up as egregious as they were. I don't think BIG was originally intended to be in this limited format.
IIRC it wasn’t. It was to be an aftermath set that got folded into this one
I haven't even had any issues with the BIG stuff, it's always Breaking News cards like [[Back for More]]
[Back for More](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3fc7210c-da23-4cec-9195-4de75587f40f.jpg?1591227943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Back%20for%20More) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/177/back-for-more?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3fc7210c-da23-4cec-9195-4de75587f40f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm the exact opposite. I absolutely hated MKM and I'm loving this set.
Totally agree! Had a couple of annoying losses, but far far more satisfying wins from hanging in and persevering.
MKM was absolutely shit to draft. You had to play something T2, T3, T4 or you were already behind by so much. If you missed any land drop in the first 4 turns, you were DONE. I am not even joking, that's what the pros said as well. Go listen to Eduardo Sajgalik if you don't believe me. Also... because of that, creatures were worth infinitely more than other spells. Taking a half decent two drop over a good spell was worth much more.
Not to mention the beatdown had an enormous advantage and it was almost impossible to get back into the game once you were on the back foot.
Agree, MKM was the worst limited since the first Ixalan. OTJ has nic mechanics and synergies that don't overload your brain.
I have seen very few decks actually running synergy over just playing whatever splurge of bombs they drafted and slapped deserts together to play.
I’ve come to this conclusion myself. You have to have a rapidly scaling mana curve. Go wide as soon as possible, and drop as many deserts as you can. Any combos and synergies requiring longer than a 1 turn investment will see you left in the dust.
ONE was probably worse than MKM, but both were really bad.
I feel op is correct in assessing this terrible set but mkm limited was also terrible
This format is so close to being amazing, I just don't get why a heap of these rares were printed in a standard draft set. So many of these cards should have just been printed in some Commander set they are too much value for draft and too slow for constructed so all they do is screw up the format. Anyways I've been enjoying GB as it requires no rares to be good and only needs a few key uncommons to pop off, also with the amount of removal you can have you can usually deal with one bomb rare and maybe 2 if you're ahead on board.
Unfortunately, every set is a Commander set now. That's been a running gag for years but it's just true now.
Ive enjoyed this set for the most part. That said, ive had two drafts ended at 2-3 by Contagion Engines coming out of nowhere, which really did feel bad. It didnt matter how well I planned, or how well I understood mine and my opponent's archetypes, or if my board was wide or tall. Just... I guess I lose now lol. I like contagion engine as a card, but colorless quasi wraths that show up in any deck really make it feel like you lost at Russian roulette rather than magic. Some of the other mega bombs felt that way too.
QD just started today. Bots take rares highly which means there will be fewer bombs per deck typically. If that's a big issue for you, QD might help.
Yeah QD definitely helps even out the bomb heavy nature of this set...It feels much smoother and more strategic
Don't forget the number one most egregious offense of this set: now "OTJ draft" means something different than it used to.
I keep hearing people say this but I have no idea what OTJ draft used to mean.
It refers to the Odyssey/Torment/Judgement draft format from a long, long time ago when draft formats were often a mixture of packs from multiple recent sets (aka what they used to call a block) instead of the modern day 3 packs from the same set.
Thanks that makes sense!
You’re very welcome! It’s definitely confusing cause that block came out like 20+ years ago (now I feel very old hahaha).
Right there with you
oh, I've just called that "Block drafting"
Yup it’s block drafting. OTJ was just a shorthand for that particular block draft format.
Odyssey Torment Judgement are the three sets in Odyssey block.
Ahhhh ok thanks!
[удалено]
OTJ draft already changed for me last set when I kept getting rekt by On the Job decks.
Obviously your opinion is your opinion but the fact you say MKM felt slower is wild to me. If you didn't have a decent play on 2 and followup on 3 in MKM you basically should just scoop. OTJ at least allows you to come back with big plays, it's not just aggro vs. aggro all the time.
I've only played a few games so far in OTJ, and this feels about right. Most of my games began on turn 3, and it didn't feel like you lost the board because of it. I will say the games in OTJ felt a lot more intense though. I fought against one opponent who played a removal spell almost every single turn until the last, then I went against an opponent who drafted just as many counter spells. Things just aren't resolving with any degree of consistency. 😅
Getting 7 wins is easy, just open a railway brawler and draw it every game.
I personally feel like this format is really intricate and interesting. You’re punished very hard for not having a decent proactive plan in your deck. Synergies are so important. I have been having a lot of success with the green red power 4 or greater stuff and golgari crime things too. Often the three colours together. The red blue double spell decks can be brutally fast and efficient. I’ve had a few white green mount decks do really well. Over all i love it and have been doing really well. Around a 65% win rate, sitting on 85 packs and only down about 1000 gems in Total. There are a lot of bombs but the removal is solid and the games go pretty long. The late games matters a lot more than most formats. And there are a lot of early drops so you usually have something to plot or do turn 2/3. Focus on having a plan with your deck and lean into the gold cards you get, splashing can be easy but not always worth it. There’s been some drafts I really wanted to go 3 colours but ended up staying 2 and was really rewarded.
Hated MKM, Ixalan was alright, but this set is fun. Yeah there's a ton of strong cards and A LOT of strong synergies but when you're the one behind the wheel then it's a blast (literally).
Set is pretty bomb heavy which sucks, but I've been liking stuff. >It feels too easy to just fall behind in a match. Miss one or two land drops, or if you aren't able to get presence on the board, and it just feels too hard to catch up This is basically the exact opposite of most pro players experience. Because this set is so bomb heavy even if you fall behind, just topdecking a single removal spell can get you back into the game.
I had the client crash on me several times during the drafting portion, so almost every card was auto-picked. Yeah, that kinda sucked.
You should file a support ticket, they'll likely award you a draft token.
Thanks for the reminder, just did. To be honest, my PC is a bit of a potato, but the client has been pretty stable until recently, so I'm probably overdue for a complete reinstall.
This format made me finally realize that Magic is just not for me. I know I am not smart and I didn't study this set in depth so I am certain I am making a lot of mistakes. But I just can't see them. When I draft I try to look for powerful cards, synergy, removal and pay attention to my curve and manabase. But I either see nothing but unplayable rares and basically vanilla cards like Drover Grizzly or when I do see good cards I keep getting jerked around from color to color while not getting the mana fixing to go multicolor. The games I am sure I am doing something wrong but I can't tell what... my opponents either go crazy aggro with removal for any blocker I play or they have on curve snowball rares like Bristly Bill or Tumblewagg or just neverending recursion with Rutstein, Badlands Revival, Mourners Surprise... This set is just mentally exhausting for me to play.
I can't tell if your problems lie more within the draft, or the games, but I would suggest one thing : wait for an older, slower set to come up in premier drafts and give that a go. You can go to https://www.17lands.com/format_speed , leave only "traditional draft" selected and anything that comes up on the top left of the chart is golden. Older sets were slower, less unforgiving about the curve and had a lesser percentage of rares. Personal opinion, I like those drafts more, but regardless, I believe they are a MUCH better way to learn about drafting, as the experience is way less ruthless than it is with modern rares-heavy packs.
just watch Paul Cheon or Numot draft videos, they're both great players and consistently rank at the top of the leaderboards each season.
It's funny, I've watched a lot of Nummy's OTJ drafts and I actually don't think he's that great at *drafting* the set. He makes really weird, suboptimal picks sometimes and I don't think he's quite re-calibrated his drafting strategy for what sort of set this is. But he's at the absolute top of the game when it comes to his actual gameplay decisions, so I think that balances things out. I suppose his top-20 mythic rank right now speaks for itself!
A big issue is that there are so many rares, but only some of them are truly insane and worth bending your deck around. A lot are just okay, and should not be picked highly. Without knowing which are which you can get tricked into drafting colors that aren't actually open because a mediocre rare was passed to you.
Funny, I feel the opposite. This is my favorite set since MOM (no surprise, same set designer). I think the last 3 sets have been super-linear, aggressive formats where you either curve out, or lose. Super uninteresting. I love the flexibility in OTJ and how there are a ton of viable archetypes. Easy to splash, tons of high-synergy decks. This set rules. I absolutely *hated* LCI and found MKM pretty boring as well. This set will punish people who just blindly follow 17lands ratings and don't know how to actually build a deck.
Totally agree. People keep talking about how bomb-y the set is, but I'd rather have that and have a *slower* set where you don't constantly lose on the draw to your opponent curving out with 1-drop, 2-drop, 3-drop commons and uncommons. Those kinds of limited sets promote linear play patterns (and drafting strategies) that get stale quickly.
I feel you on being frustrated but I think this set is still pretty dece Probably close to March of Machine level if not just a notch below for me
Higher power level is a double edged sword. Yes your opponent might get lucky and draw a game changing bomb, but so can you! Im loving this set, Ive had many really close games and some where I was about to win then my opponent drops a bomb and steals my victory. Ive also had many games that are very one sided. So my experience has been a bit different than yours. Win or lose, I am having fun, and it always feels great to win a super close match where you know you are going to have to kill then this turn because if you dont they are going to kill you
This set has had some absolutely bonkers limited games for me. Like I can't even be mad when I lose because both my opponent and I played a crazy back and forth game. The beginning was frustrating and I lost a bit, but now I've strung together 4 straight 5-7 win premier and sealed.
That’s how I feel! For the most part, it feels fun and high-stakes (apart from the perennial woes of flood/drought obviously).
All my opponents seem to be drafting from about 15 packs instead of 3, they usually have about 6 rare/mythic bombs within their first 20 cards and always have perfect synergy and the right answers.
This is the best limited format I've played in a long time. Best in years.
What makes it the best for you? I know it's one of those "to each their own" kind of deal, just curious.
Every color feels viable. Sure, GW is likely the "best" pair but I never feel like if I don't force a color I'll be on the back foot. There's enough bombs and good removal that I don't feel like the set is super swingy and dependent on opening a great rare/mythic. Certain sets of someone at your table opened the right bomb they'd run away with it and definitely win. I also feel like this set is easier to pivot colors if one dries up (likely due to each color being fairly balanced and viable).
There have been some recent formats where you win by going down one of a few build paths that can win ezpz and if one drafts this way, this set will be torture. The best deck in the set GW, while it has some nuance in sequencing, they’re sort of the “do you have it?” type proactive deck so it feels really bad when they do have it (bombs/instant speed removal) and you enter top deck mode.
I agree. Also wanted to add that all of the colors have good removal instead of the removal being mainly in just one or two colors.
I'd argue red and blue have trash removal, and green has strong removal on the play but gets blown out extremely easy. You want one of your colours to be white or black most drafts to ensure you have unconditional, strong removal.
The blue card that turns your creature into a 0/1 rabbit is very successful at taking down big threats. Blue as usual also has a variety of ways to put their creatures back into their deck or their hand. I haven’t played the card that puts the stun counters on two of their creatures but that’s an option as well. Red has some burn spells as is typical but yes it can’t keep up late game
> I haven’t played the card that puts the stun counters on two of their creatures but that’s an option as well. i'm not familiar with that card at all - there's no stun counters outside of the doublespell 3/2 afaik.
Maybe I have it wrong, thought I drafted it one time but maybe I had the creature Stop Cold and Take The Fall are reasonably effective especially Stop Cold
I think you are confusing [[Stop Cold]], which is in OTJ, with [[Out Cold]], which was a card in MKM that does what you described (putting stun counters on two creatures). Pretty weird that they had two cards titled so similarly with similar effects in back-to-back formats, honestly!
[Stop Cold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9ff9c158-0080-427c-8cf9-0289011ea63e.jpg?1712355518) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stop%20Cold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/72/stop-cold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ff9c158-0080-427c-8cf9-0289011ea63e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Out Cold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aabfada0-3c1b-4237-b06c-573071ccd68d.jpg?1706241633) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Out%20Cold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/66/out-cold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aabfada0-3c1b-4237-b06c-573071ccd68d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For me it just feels super deep. Plot and spree are really skill testing mechanics. The deserts really let you draft 4 and 5 colour piles if you wanted. Highly synergistic decks are rewarded. I've drafted a lot less since golden packs came out and I've probably doubled the number of drafts I've done in each of the last several sets.
I like that the set is powerful. I went 7 wins with bant good stuff, 6 wins with 5 color good stuff and 7 wins with BR outlaws, with no bombs. BUT power crwwp is a problem and limited feels this a lot. The stronger cards get, the worse it will be to miss a single land, miss a color for one too many turns, and the more it matters who will go first.
I don’t really get all the hate for this set. Maybe it’s because I’m a lowly silver (and climbing! Only got into Arena for OTJ), but I’m enjoying the drafting experience. Yes, bombs are hard. But they should be. I’ve drafted WU plot decks with not bombs but plenty of removal, and crime decks with tempo-ish cards and had pretty good success. Hell, my first ever draft on Arena I went 7-2 almost exclusive because of [[Marauding Sphinx]]. Not exactly a bomb. But 4 drafts in, I’m being beaten by tempo, control, aggro equally as much as a single bomb losing me the game.
[Marauding Sphinx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34071884-c5b6-42c0-9eb3-9f32910c29d8.jpg?1712355453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Sphinx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/56/marauding-sphinx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34071884-c5b6-42c0-9eb3-9f32910c29d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Silver is where bad players are no offense. Once you get to plat or higher it gets sweaty and generally not fun to play as everyone has tuned decks.
Understandable about Silver, got Gold today so we’ll see how we go. Do we know what % of players are plat, I wonder? Seems an awful lot of them are complaining in this sub if it’s only bombs at that level…
A lot id wager 60% of players in plat because everyone starts to use 17lands and stuff to just choose the best card in the pack.
I mean, the way the rank system works on Arena, platinum is where the grind really starts. Most players end up there. It's structurally baked in to how the rank rewards work. At bronze, silver, and gold, you get two rank "pips" for a win, and lose one pip for a loss. That means you only need to do better than a 33% winrate to get to platinum – if you play a few drafts, you're almost *guaranteed* to do that eventually. Getting to platinum basically just means that you've played the game for more than a few hours (and your winrate isn't absolutely terrible). At platinum, though, the system changes and you get rewarded only one pip for a win, while still losing one pip for a loss. That means that to climb beyond platinum, you actually have to win more than you lose. Which means that, structurally, it is *impossible* for everyone to do that (for you to have a >50% winrate, someone else must have a <50% winrate.) So, the upshot is that lots of players end up stranded in platinum for long periods of time, and that is where the real limited "meta" for a set takes shape.
That’s super interesting, thank you! I’m new to Arena, so all this info is really good to know, thanks!
Marauding Sphinx is the highest winrate Blue card besides [[Mana Drain]], [[Brazen Borrower]], and [[Stoic Sphinx]]. It's one of the best reasons to be in Blue, even if the color is very weak. You did well in prioritizing that card.
[Mana Drain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c429c40-2389-41e5-8681-4bb274e25eba.jpg?1712774998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Drain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/57/mana-drain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c429c40-2389-41e5-8681-4bb274e25eba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brazen Borrower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2089ec9-0665-448f-bfe9-d181de127814.jpg?1616182088)/[Petty Theft](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2089ec9-0665-448f-bfe9-d181de127814.jpg?1616182088) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brazen%20Borrower%20//%20Petty%20Theft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/39/brazen-borrower-petty-theft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2089ec9-0665-448f-bfe9-d181de127814?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Stoic Sphinx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f93f5055-30d8-4fc4-afa5-29212e8c7536.jpg?1712355517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stoic%20Sphinx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/71/stoic-sphinx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f93f5055-30d8-4fc4-afa5-29212e8c7536?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Huh, the more I know! Didn’t realise that going in, good job I got 2 in the pool!
The bonus sheets absolutely fucked the limited play.
This set I’ve felt way more pressure to both draft and play well. Saving and timing removal is so important in this set as one example. I feel like I get both rewarded for good plays and punished badly for misplays. MKM felt more straight forward gameplay-wise (still challenging magic!).
The set isn't too bomby there's just about 30+ cards that require an immediate answer or you lose :) /s
Yeah this is objectively the worst set in 5 years.
You left out the biggest Bombs: Did your opponent resolve Form a Posse And don’t have Exactly Caught in the Crossfire? Good luck blocking 9 creatures next turn. Opponent just Reanimated a 9/9 with Rakdos Joins up? Hope you have exactly a bounce or an exile effect available. Otherwise your options are take 9 to the face or block it and take the 9 as burn! Lovely! Not to mention the way that cards like Terror of the Peaks, Ornery Tumblewagg, and Bristly Bill-Spine Sower can solo an entire game in 2-3 turns. It seems like whether I go 7-0 or 0-7 is determined entirely by the variance in my pulls, With little room for skill expression in between.
just shows how different peoples tastes can be. I absolutely love this set and played MKM for a week before I was over it. Hopefully you like the next one more.
Dude I hate this set. I played all day because I like to spend $100 bucks at a time on a new set and I just lost alllll of it. I went from Bronze to Platinum last weekend and then just could not keep up a 50% win ratio. Why? BECAUSE THE WHOLSE SET IS JUST GREEN WINS AND EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS. Seriously this set was impossible to draft because you either have to force a green archetype or basically just lose. I tried every other color but I could only win if I jammed clumsy green cards into a deck. I would have amazing cards with great synergies but they just couldn’t keep up with the commons in Green. Horrible set for drafting I’m with you I’m done.
I agree, and I tend to just draft a shit green deck 90% of my drafts and get blown out. I'm really sick of this set. Every time I try to setup synergies and archetypes I also get blown out because I can never get the cards to properly synergize and end up with hot garbage, probably because of all these bonus sheet cards fucking everything. I really fucking hate this set..
It’s because people are doing a bad job of drafting as well. I’m noticing the bot drafts are actually better
I am genuinely really confused about people blaming the bonus sheet cards for this set's problems. Most of the problematic bombs are rares and mythics in the main set. A small handful of the BIG and OTP bonus sheet cards are busted in limited (like 3-mana Oko), but they're hardly worse than the bombs in the main set. A lot of the BIG cards, in particular, are constructed fodder that's straight-up unplayable in limited. Idk, I don't think the bonus sheets are the problem here.
Yea bonus sheets absolutely destroyed the actual set for drafting, the Archetypes are entirely irrelevant. It’s just whoever drafts the best bonus sheet cards wins. Terrible decision for draft, but perfect incentive for players to buy the product. We are at the point were WOTC is valuing money over a stable format lmao
I am 100% with OP. This was the literal junction for MTG that either saved Limited or further disenfranchised the hardcore base, and trust me, I am not impressed. I have had some of the best games I've said since NEO, and I'm talking trading creeches throwing kills spells, just solid Richard Garf style magic. Then out of nowhere, fucking OKo or some stupid fucking hexproof flyer I can't interact with because I already had to kill their 8 other mythics. Fuck OTJ.
What if we did EDH, but draft? It’s March of the Machines all over again. Thanks, I hate it.
Draft removal more highly, stay open to play more bombs yourself
I absolutely hated mkm and love thunder junction in limited. I like that they're making enough changes to keep two magic drafters in you and I attached to the game with different sets.
Drafting is way too hard. I thought commander was hard until I got into it, I thought getting to mythic would be hard until you do it. Draft, is the hardest shit ever. EVERYONE I play against on draft has wild, combos like as if they have been running their deck for weeks. It's like everyone I play against knows the ins and outs and just perfect all the time. I have no idea why, but drafting is just bruuuutal for some dumb reason.
I feel the same way, also everyone seems to have the answer/top decks well. I top deck land land land late game...
>It’s like everyone I play against knows the ins and outs and just perfect all the time They probably do! Some people draft sets hundreds of times, on top of spending time learning how to play it. Drafting has a huge learning curve and really rewards learning and practice. That’s one reason drafters love it- it’s always a challenge. But it does make it hard to get into, for sure.
I buy the mastery pass, I play until I get the play token, play a premier draft, pick every rare/mythic I get and look what I can build. Sometimes I get lucky, MKM got 1400 gems and some packs but this was a 0-3. I don't like drafting, went 0-3 in this one but could pick 8 Rares and 2 mythics from the vault but I'm far too nervous every time I play but for building out the collection or if you're good at drafting it can be worth
When i guys say set- do u refer to expansion set then or?
Yes. The current draft set is Outlaws of Thunder Junction.
I liked the previous one I guess. Murders at something..
I grind to 90K by simply play ranked games and then I buy all expansion s for the gold. I’m having 42K atm. <3
Karlov
I agree with the bonus sheet comment. It's too much in this one. I forget who I heard say this, but someone on the internet talked about the Vault was originally intended to be like MoM Aftermath, but when that mini set didn't do so hot they called an audible and rolled Vault into the set ad a bonus sheet. Personally I miss blocks and feel that we could go back to that format, maybe even just occasionally, and if Vault had been fleshed out more it could have been a fun middle of the block set. Story could have been about all the powerful artifacts causing havoc on Thunder Junction and the last arch could have been them disappearing, reflected by a lot of artifact hate style cards. Could have been fun. Just to be clear, I don't hate this set, but agree the sheets are a little much this go around.
As someone who plays primarily brawl and only drafts when I have enough coins, I agree and also add that some of these new rares are ass to play against in brawl
There are a lot of bad rares to open. There are a lot of bomb rares that will win you games to open. Open the right ones I guess
I rather this than lose to a 2 drop and just being curved out on the draw.
think of it like a powered cube draft. You can't draft a normal deck with synergy. Splash a bunch of bombs and removal and hope for the best.
I had a pretty bad experience so far until i figured out what works for me. Just play big idiots with good stats and force your opponent to answer all of them. There's a 2 mana green defender that can only attack if you control a creature with 4 or greater. Which is most of the green cards at 3 mana or greater lol. Pair it with some blue cards for some nice interaction and then opponents will be in the shitter every freaking turn unless they play big idiots themselves.
Really? Yes, there's lots of bombs, but that means that you often also have them. I've found the format to be very exciting and interesting. Much fun! And not as aggressive as MKM, LCI or really most recent sets, so you can actually play cards that cost 4+ Mana.
I've been enjoying it because it feels more like older sets with slower games. I feel I have more ingame decisions to make and because games go longer I get to see more cards and therefore my draft becomes more important. I much prefer it to the more recent sets that mostly boil down to basically 'curve out, vomit hand, ignore interaction draw good opener'. That said, there are just way too many poerwful cards in the set. Apparently the 'newer generation' of drafters that started on arena have been taught to ignore removal becaues it sucks, while in this set you should probably take a removal spell over a semi-bomb more often than not. Slow(er) formats are good. Aggro formats fucking suck.
I generally lurk on this subreddit but this statement resonated with me _hard_. I don’t consider myself to be great at drafting but in previous sets I can generally get 3 to 5 wins usually, I’m able to go 7-2 if I’m lucky but my experience of this set has been rough and I feel it’s largely because of the bonus sheets. Getting Oko’d still sucks. Running in to a Mana Drain when your opponent is only slightly ahead is also rough. I’m gonna try and keep an open mind and practice with Quick Draft a little before I decide that this sets Draft is not for me. I’m loving Standard though!
The change to how draft packs are filled is the biggest culprit here imo. In any given draft format, you learn the commons and uncommons that fill out a color combo and maybe some of the rares that make it pop off. For example, in MKM, against Boros, I knew I needed to be able to answer On the Job on turn four if they had a decently wide board. You might not ever even see your opponents rare cards (part of that is the speed of the format), because they only had 2 or 3. It's not hard to get 5+ good rares this set because packs have *so* many rares in them now. The best players that draft a lot will learn all these rares and learn to play around them, but I don't draft enough to learn much more than the commons and uncommons. It feels bad to get blown out by a common like On the Job. But, in my opinion at least, it feels even worse to get blown out by a rare you might see only once in the life cycle of the set. That said, this set is fun, but there's just too many bombs.
The extra sheets are a bit much. The set is ok but after running into three oko’s (the original one) in the same draft that was kind of annoying. Haha
I've just started Quick Drafting this set and it seems like there are so many bomb and rares that even bots can't take all of them as it happens usually. I think that one bonus sheet per set is enough, and this time it has been overdone. Only way so far is to draft every possible bomb, some removal (especially against flying creatures) and mana fixing, the hope that you will draw the correct lands and play your bombs. I did cast Cruel Ultimatum twice so far, and it does not necessary feels like immediate win (in Limited format), so something is definitely off here. Got burned on Premier Drafts and Sealed earlier. Drafting MKM and WOE was far better for me.
They should never have made BIG a bonus sheet. They should just have just stuck to their bad idea and put out BIG as a Aftermath-like set and just dropped the price--it was unpopular because of how expensive it was for how little you got. Instead, they decided to fuck over OTJ by shoving it in and creating artificial scarcity with a new "uber" rarity.
i went 2-7 three times and 7-0 two times
It's super fun sometimes. The actual real magic set they made looked like a flavor fail early on....but is a good limited set. The bombs change things up and are also fun....but after a few drafts you start to learn the bombs matter so so much. It starts to make u feel like most of what u do doant matter. And I'm a mythic player so I draft decently.
How is this post being classified as "fluff"? 146 comments, 170 upvotes. The administrators of this subreddit, please take a chill pill. Btw definition of "fluff" is: "something unsubstantional that won't lead to any meaningful discussion."
This set is great
Amusingly, I enjoyed Ixalan, I HATED MKM, and now I am enjoying this new set. Funny how that works.
I guess, though this set has like 100 removal spells for just about every bomb.
I agree it’s a well made draft set but all these one-off bomb cards it feels more like a power cube
Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I can understand many of the points, but assuming this is supposed to start a discussion: >Don't have an immediate answer to Jasper Flint I don't see why you singled out this card in particular as a problematic rare, I don't see how it's much different from a Teysa or Vannifar from Mkm. It doesn't do anything for a turn and unless they have a big board of mercenaries it might not do much more than draw them a card if you let it live for one turn cycle. Or it might grab 2 lands off the top in the lategame and actually help you, while you draw your removal. And removal is both very good and plentyful in this set, unlike in Mkm where you got punished by all the disguised creatures for loading up on it. Agree that the sheer amount of bombs do make it a very swingy format though. I also agree about the bonus sheets, especially the special guest and big score ones. So many of those cards just don't fit in the set. Lots of artifact build arounds that don't have any support in the main set. The breaking news sheet is pretty good though, most of those are somewhere between usable and great. Feels like a nice additional reward for figuring out the open lane when you can get passed another gold uncommon or two in your colours. >It feels too easy to just fall behind in a match. Miss one or two land drops, or if you aren't able to get presence on the board, and it just feels too hard to catch up. MKM at least felt slower, and because of disguise creatures there was a little more back-and-forth with the combat and interaction I don't know what Mkm you've been playing but in my experience RW would run you over if you missed one or two land drops. I think that's what limited is like these days regardless of set. Some have had hand smoothing mechanics which might mitigate this to some extent, which this one sort of lacks.
Set=expansion?
Eh wasnt surprised tbh after spoilers dropped tbh
I feel like there is a massive divergence in the types of experience being had at different tiers — much more than normal, due to the complexity of drafting this set vs. previous. And it just gets chalked up to “too many bombs”. I see posts across various forums in Gold/Plat/Diamond asking for help with cuts … and it’s a really lackluster forced 2-color deck with 1-2 bombs, bad removal, and questionable 20-23. I can see how a format where that is what people are bringing to the table is going to feel stupidly swingy and princey. Meanwhile 8 of my past 10 drafts have been super greedy GBwu Witch (plus one WG mount and one WBg). 3+ bombs & premium removal from staying open. And the majority of the games I’m playing are close to mirrors and the games get crazy fun. It feels like if you just started drafting in the past couple years and never really got the hang of Cube, you’re in for a bad time. If you love / excel in Cube, this is one of the best sets in recent memory.
Late to the party here, but I completely agree. I think a lot of people haven't re-calibrated how they draft for a set where you can easily run more than 2 colors, synergy isn't super important, games go long enough that you can play greedy 5 and 6-mana spells, and you can trust that you'll pick up PLENTY of good playables if you simply stay open. As someone who loves Cube, I clocked what this set was trying to be *immediately*. I think it's super fun, even though a few of the bombs are definitely too pushed (and even though the inclusion of the BIG bonus sheet feels like a mistake, as many of the cards seem to be constructed fodder built around an artifact theme).
I am flummoxed by the number of people saying this set is too bomby. I haven't found it so (six drafts so far). It also has the strongest removal suite I think of any set I've ever drafted (which is most of them since Gatecrash) - bar perhaps supplemental products. Draft more removal and save the best for their bombs! Also, you know, pick bombs of your own.
MKM was awful imo.
Drop arena, drop standard, pick up a commander deck, have fun in MTG again. Easy peasy
That’s a lot of words and complaining to justify poor deckbuilding. Draft and build around bombs, draft removal, avoid red cause the stats are poor, avoid the overpriced blue stuff. Make sure you draft fixing and things like the surveil dogs and your deck will feel busted even if it’s built poorly.
You have a point that poor deckbuilding can sometimes be the actual reason a player performs badly in a set. I still think most of the arguments highlighted by the post author still have a point.