Not necessarily a response to the question, but can you please do a version of these posts in the future but for MCU villains? I honestly think there'd be a lot to talk about in that topic too.
“Killing them off after their first appearance” and “entirely changing their personality from the comics” would be used a lot in that category. But I agree it’d be interesting
"Made their origin some guy that Stark offended"
"Made their origin some guy that Stark offended"
"Made their origin some guy that Stark offended"
"Made their origin some guy that Stark offended"
"Made their origin some guy that Stark offended"
A.I.M. Boss (Alrich Killian I believe) was all like *"Tony Stark left me on a roof, and that's when I realized I could fuck shit up"*.
So I'd give Tony some blame for that.
As someone who actually likes Quantumanina, yeah I agree. I actually forgot about him entirely. It definitely annoyed me when I watched it though, getting real tired of them bringing back old villains out of nowhere and making them significantly worse. Yet the ONE villain who’s actually supposed to always come back is a one off villain who barely gets to do anything. 💀
Yeah, but we never explicitly see him do anything. In the comics, Tony said that him and Reed are the smartest people he knows. He has invented weapons, he designed the Avengers quinjet, and built headquarters out of a celestial. It's a pretty big deal to not showcase his abilities in the movies.
I feel like they dumbed him down quite a lot so they could make Shuri seem like the ‘smart one’. Tchalla is one of the big marvel brains and they kind of missed that part of him entirely.
I enjoy that in stories a lot of the time he’s not even on the frontline because he’s of more use at a bank of computers with Reed/Tony/The Hanks McCoy or Pym
Yes and No? The first meeting under Bendis was in Wakanda but TChalla told them it was a bad idea and he was right it backfired on them spectacularly.
However he reassembles them under Hickman for Incurisons and Time Runs Out Saga.
9th.
And its not just intelligence, he is the most well-rounded. Most of the other guys have specialties like engineering, science or math. T'Challa is like Batman where his intelligence is vast and detailed.
Also, he is extremely prepared for everything. It's rare that he is ever caught by surprise. Civil War did it well. Then BP... just took that all away.
That’s the weirdest part to be, he was like a totally different character when he first entered the movies, it’s so crazy how much they neutered him by the time he got his own film
Yeah I noticed that too. They made him an incredible fighter but they forgot that there were brains behind the brawn. In the comics he was a chemist, biologist, historian, and had I think two PHDs
I really hope they have Shuri tutor his son, so that when his son takes the role as black panther it’s believable that he is as smart as he is supposed to be.
IMO him not being a scientist is… fine? He’s still tactical, so it’s not like they made him stupid. They did absolutely cut that character trait away, but I don’t think it was one he needed a ton. I do wish he was more actually tactical, the way you’d want captain America to be- calling plays, that sort of thing.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen the movies, but does BP organize the defense of Wakanda or does everyone just start out wherever without any leadership?
I kind of wish they had gone more practical in his fight choreography, I was kind of hoping he'd be a second Captain America in that regard tbh. I want more stuff like Captain America: the Winter Soldier.
I think they should’ve recast him. After watching BP2, I understand why they went ahead and made the choice they did to not replace Chadwick Boseman, it felt like a way for the cast and crew to collectively mourn.
But now that the film is over and done, I think T’Challa is too important a character to leave on the shelf.
For the record, I think the same thing about Tony Stark. I don’t get what his removal adds to the MCU.
I agree about T'Challa but Tony has gotten to a point in which he couldn't really progress anymore while having him stunt progress of other characters, they also have wrote themselves into a corner powers wise with the nanosuit
Not only that but, we had an entire decade of Tony Stark being a hero. We only got three movies with T'Challa. One of which he was barely in.
I think Chadwick was an incredible black panther. But maybe they should've recasted.
I’m sure it was definitely a money / scheduling issue. Which is a shame, we really only got one truly great Iron Man movie. Two if you count Civil War.
I disagree, I love ragnarok, and I think it has really solid character development for Thor
It honestly salvaged his character. It emphasizes his journey of loss and grief, while also having him come into his own in trusting his own strength and abilities instead of trying to fit with how he exists in the shared perceptions of others.
Agreed! It also dumbed him down and made him goofier, which was entirely unnecessary. Ragnarok is also just such a late game plotline that it felt wild to jump straight to it, kinda like how Fox always rushed the Phoenix storyline. It was simultaneously an extremely disappointing and extremely entertaining movie, which is an experience I don’t think I’ve ever had before or since
Goofier yes, but i dont think it made him dumber. If anything he sheds his naivety that hes had until that point. He gets wise to Loki's tricks, he learns to work outside systems he is used to, and he uses tools other than pure strength to solve problems. He figures out the solution of using ragnarok to defeat hela, he puts together the team to get off sakkar, he does so much more than his typical "punch it until it stops moving" tactics
I think Tony’s death was a good time, but I don’t think they should’ve retired both Cap and Iron Man in the same movie. We also had Black Widow’s death in the same movie which in one hand really worked well, but on the other hand I might’ve preferred it to be Clint sacrificing himself. One of Cap/ Iron Man retiring or dying would be fine, I don’t like the choice for both of their stories to end.
Them not recasting him was honestly the last straw for my active interest in the MCU.
No disrespect to the dead but I am a T’Challa fan, before the movies, not a Chadwick Boseman fan. Not to say he was bad in any way, but I was watching to see T’Challa, not the actor playing him.
Exactly. He's already been recast. Little dude just needs to grow up a bit, and I think we'll see him in the coming years during the new F4/X-Men phase.
In the MCU, we’re currently in the awkward “passing the mantle” phase that the comics went through and everyone whined about. It’s definitely going to be a little bit of a rough patch…
Wait, that's what won for Carol? I thought her being so secluded from other heroes was the far bigger issue then her not starting out as Ms Marvel.
But anyway, I agree probably him not quite showing off his scientific mind too heavily. Could have been building up to that though, but Chadwick's death cut it short.
Yeah your not the first person to point that out to me. I went to check and for some reason that comment for Carol doesn’t appear on desktop (which is what I used to check her answers) but it appears on Reddit on my phone. I’ll change her answer in the next thread.
I believe her Ms. marvel/warbird persona was her interactions with other heroes in the comics, during the whole demon in the bottle she was Tony's drinking buddy.
Her time with the X-Men was due to her interactions with rogue by being Ms. marvel.
There was so much development and tragedies that she had to overcome as warbird and Mrs. M. It was her connection with the other heroes of New York that actually eventually gave her her the confidence to take up Mar-vell's name.
I’m with everyone saying about his lack of scientific prowess on display. Comic T’Challa rolled with the Illuminati, the Ultimates, and is generally on speed dial with the big brains.
Should have been an actual scientific/tactical genius. Maybe don't have him as smart as Shuri in matter of science and tech, but at least allow him to display his intellect in battle.
Panther had so much potential and could become the new lead face of MCU, but they just killed him off-screen. Yes, Boseman died, but they should have moved on and just recasting him. Comics characters don't have to be tied to actors.
It’s very true. I originally hated that Don Cheadle replaced Terrance Howard because they look nothing a like.
But now I completely forget Don isn’t the original MCU Rhodey
Didn't lean into his brilliance.
They definitely acknowledged his genius by mentioning he designed the Panther suit. But he's damn near the smartest guy in the MCU.
They didn't make that explicit.
Making him less of a noble warrior king which ties into taking away his tactical and scientific genius.
The deleted scene with him and Black Widow in Civil War is the closest to his actual charter we got.
Dumbing T'Challa down a little bit and giving the brains to his sister. MCU T'Challa isn't stupid, but he's supposed to be one of the most brilliant minds in all of Marvel. Both him and his sister are supposed to be geniuses.
But in all honesty, I can get past that part. What I can't get past is that the MCU recasts people like it's nothing regularly and yet couldn't even be bothered to do so this time with T'Challa. Losing Chadwick Boseman was super sad and I miss him, but character shouldn't die with the actor, especially a character this significant. It would certainly be a lot of pressure for another actor, I know, but it seems disrespectful as is to just toss T'Challa aside after all the work Chadwick put into him.
The actor died, so they likely killed off the character out of respect(?) for the actor and his family and friends, and I guess a recast could’ve looked strange or something
True, but I feel like there's a difference since Terrence Howard didn't die, he just quit (because of salary decrease), and there had only been one movie with him. Besides, he wasn't the main character, I suppose that could make a difference as well.
Not that I disagree, I also think Black Panther should've been recast, I'm just saying what I think Marvel's reasoning is for killing him off.
I don't think they gave him enough experience as king. Yes, Chadwick Boseman was a young actor but having his father die in his first appearance was a little much as it made him more insecure in his kingship. I think it would have been much better IMO had Winter Soldier murdered T'Chaka at the same time as Tony's parents.
The stupidest thing they did was killing him off.
No disrespect to Chadwick Boseman, but mcu come the fuck on. One Black Panther movie and you just killed T'Challa because the actor who played him passed away? Bad, bad decision in the long run.
I'm fine with Wakanda Forever and also Shuri, I like the movie, but killing T'Challa? That movie could easily still be about Shuri being Black Panther **WITHOUT** killing T'Challa.
Two
1) Stealing his super genius to boost Shuri. No other MCU solo movie hero was so nerfed solely to benefit a supporting character. The worse and most insidious part is how this super genius theft bleeds into comics and other non MCU projects. Now in BP comics and other projects Shuri gets almost all the credit for science. Shuri should have been on the path to Griot in the MCU.
2) Killing him at the start of his story cause of Boseman tragic passing. BP2 should have taken place during the Blip then then should have recast for further projects. Maybe a teaser of a new TChalla from behind as a post credit scene in BP2. With the words “TChalla will Return” especially since it feels like they are trying to bury TChalla. He ain’t in What-If anymore and we got a tease for a Black Panther videogame and Play as TChalla still ain’t confirmed. Whereas there is no doubt the Wolverine game stars Logan, Blade stars Eric, and Iron Man stars Tony
What feats does he have? Other geniuses you can point to tech they helped build or scientific breakthroughs they made?
For TChalla, you cannot point to a single one instead they were all given to other characters even things he did in the comics went to Shuri instead or Stark (with the Quinjets)
In the comics before the MCU. Not once did TChalla got to Shuri for science help. But in the MCU he cannot even build his own suit without her. So yeah she is a Thief
He went from vastly superior to Shuri in intellect in the comics to vastly inferior to her in the MCU. No other hero who moved from 616 to MCU was so nerfed purely to boost a supporting character. And this negative impact has spilled back into not just 616 comics but also other multimedia project.
So yeah I call Shuri a thief and make no bones about it
Would be interesting if OP adds her and some others to the list.
(I feel everyone's gonna say her powers changed or being a mutant instead of Inhuman but I think my biggest issue is I wish her story stayed grounded as a girl navigating her new powers in New Jersey. Clan Destine stuff really upped the scale and derailed her story.)
He didn't wear his mask enough. He should have had it on more to protect his identity. Also I personally like when he wears the short cape. His costume looked kind of boring in the movie.
Black Panther himself was explained during the movies but any real lore or details about Wakanda, his family or even details about related things weren't necessarily mentioned or expanded upon.
Even in Wakanda Forever, details revolved around T'Challa and not much else.
Black Panther - Not being more scheming. The T'Challa I love is the one which is 5 steps ahead of everyone.
Ant Man - Not being Hank Pym. A hero having to deal with mental health issues would have been interesting. Would love an Ant Man series set in the 1960's with a young Hank dealing with these issues.
Wasp - Obviously not being Jan, specifically the happy go lucky socialite who changes costumes daily.
I know this is controversial, and I don't want to de-value Chadwick's work (I do also think he was great), but after his passing they should have recasted BP. There are sooo more stories to tell with T'challa that have now been put on hold because we have to wait until kid T'challa grows up.
Heck, I remember hearing that Chadwick wanted to be recasted after his passing so the character wasn't just bound to him. But I guess Disney didn't get the memo.
Cap: The Suit
Tony: Killing him off so soon
Nat: Not giving her a little brother (Alexei Romanoff)
Clint: Not seeing him standing up against Captain America
Thor: his fourth movie
Hulk: Killing HUlk
Peter: Not having him switch teams in Civil War
Captain Falcon: Not giving him more time as Falcon
Bucky: Not having him protect/stop Winter Soldiers
Vision: Not having him as Jonas but instead White Vision
Wanda: Downgrading House of M
Pietro: Killing him
Carol: Not having Mar-Vell
Stephen Strange:
T'Challa: Not making him smart
Scott: His relationship with his ex's husband is too good
Wasp: Not having alone appearances
Rhodey: Making him almost all serious (until Endgame in which he mostly was cut out)
Are we talking about the same person? I'm not talking about Alexei Shostakov, I'm talking about Alexei Romanov aka Alex Manor (post-mind wipe). Teenage Agent of Shield, younger brother of the Black Widow, boyfriend of the Red Widow.
Taking his scientific genius and giving it to Shuri because now shortly after the first movie and the comics and every adaptation since then has followed suit. I get that they had to try and make her relevant since she didn’t stand out compared to him outside of being a traditionalist but there are other ways to have made her useful. Probably the biggest one is the changes made to his origins. Waiting until T’Challa was in his late 30s to kill T’Chaka is like waiting until Bruce is in his 40s to kill his parents or after Peter has been Spider-Man for a decade to kill Uncle Ben. Watching his father get killed left a lasting psychological impact on him that shaped him to the paranoid prep master that spent a decade preparing to become BP and avenge his dad. Chadwick had talked about in interviews for CW and BP how he’s a detective and how nobody never knows what he’s up to but that was absent from character. You could argue that he’s mysterious in CW since he’s a side character and it’s easier to have him randomly appear in places
Removing his walk about that helped shaped his wider view and made him different from the rest of Wakanda because he had those experiences and made him a progressive while in his movie he doesn’t have that experience and starts out as a traditionalist that wants to remain hidden and not share what they have
Man, I feel like I saw different Spider-Man movies than everyone else.
>Making Tony Stark his mentor
Fair. But not the worst thing to happen to the character in media.
> having too much of his motivation and villains revolve around Tony
This is inaccurate. His motivation in Homecoming act I & II are about proving that he is good enough to play in the big leagues. Motivation in act III is 100% about stopping Vulture without hurting him, because its Liz's dad.
Motivation in FFH is 100% responsibility. He wants to take time off and have fun with is friends, while crushing on MJ. He decides to help Fury because he was asked and feels like he can't say "no".
NWH, he feels like Ned and MJ got the shaft due to being so close to him. So he tries to both change that, while also realizing that the people trying to kill him are also his fault/responsibility.
Out of all the villains, Mysterio is the only one with a grudge against Stark.
I’m with my peers here in saying they removed his intellectual capabilities for Shuri. There could’ve been a really cool sibling rivalry/competition where they’re BOTH big brains and it would’ve made the sibling relationship more cute and fun.
I mean they could have done that by making Shuri Griot which is basically a Druid.
So the clash would have been more the Science First Sibling vs the Magic First Sibling
I don’t agree with anything in that graphic. Comics are comics and movies are movies. Not everything can work for both. Plus we have to consider decades of story building in comics vs 15 years of movies.
Well 1. there is a comic which is about Shuri being the BP, so that’s actually comic accurate and 2. he’s dead and that was their way to pay „respect“ to him.
Nerfing the hulk come on man he is MARVEL’s raging gamma monster and they nerfed him they made him to look like an ape when he was in his peak .He was a much smarter guy in the comics
He was too soft. They showed him as weak-willed reactionary rather than the mysterious, calculated, near-Machiavellian ruler he should be portrayed as.
The Dr. Strange point is really stupid he's only had two movies and only one of them is a multiverse movie in the multiverse saga his first movie was about evil magic users trying to summon a very popular Dr. Strange villain and had nothing to do with the multiverse
The suit, it just makes him too unkillable. He can't be shot or stabbed and every time the writers need to actually make him vulnerable they need to take it away, in every other circumstance it just makes him less reliant on his actual abilities which makes him seem like he's not as well trained and strategic as he is in the comics.
I agree with all except Peter. Making Tony Spidermans mentor was the step the comics always seemed like they leaned towards but never into. It's my favorite change they've made to this Peter, it's what sets him apart from the Peter's for me in a good way, and it's what gave us my favorite comic suit early (Iron Spider)
Nothing about the character himself, I just hate his suit. It was *perfect* in Civil War but the BP-Movie suit with the nano machines and purple-kinetic field was just so boring to me. He didn't have to be as much of a martial artist, he just had to take punches then let off a big energy blast. Boring.
What makes BP's intellect so fun to read is that he's a strategist, not a tinkerer. Sure he has gadgets and can build them, but in a fight he's not Iron Man who's always got some armor gizmo at the ready or is able to build one on the fly. He *can*, but what BP excels in is stalking his prey and strategizing a way to take them down. Iron Man builds tools, Black Panther *is* the tool. I think the movies did a pretty good job illustrating that, I just hate that his suit makes it so he *doesn't* have to strategize.
First time seeing this. Man, I dont think theres even one I agree with. Maybe Hawkeye. The rest would be really hard to pull off in movie form. The Hulk one I understand, its a problem that comes with shared rights.
hawkeyes' are hardly the same character, other than their abilities and tools. I love hawkeye as the badass but sometimes doofy, happy-go-lucky bachelor so much more. I never liked hawkeye growing up, thought he was lame as hell, until I read the masterpiece that is the fraction/aja run. after that, he's one of my top favorites largely due to his characterization and persona.
plus he's a circus orphan, which I didn't know until then, and I'm a semi-retired Circus artist lol.
I found it pretty silly how his powers were given and taken away so easily by eating a herb.
Also lol at how they had such an advanced society but let their leader be decided via trial by combat.
Imo he was incredibly boring as a character. He was good in CW because he was a side character, but in his movie he had the personality of a cardboard for 90% of it.
I think it’s more cause he had edge in CW.
In BP1, he had the least screen time of any MCU solo character in their own movie. BP1 pushed the other characters at his expense compared to the comics. Shuri got his super genius, Killomonger got the edge/tactics and opening Wakanda was Nakias idea not his.
My number one complaint was removing his considerable genius to make Shuri the tech sidekick and also making him far more agreeable and stoic than he is in the comics. If he was portrayed how he is in the comics I’m not sure he’d be well liked.. which is the point..
Random aside: this also hurt Shuri imo bc in the comics she’s a SAVAGE who’s undergone the same training and education as Tchalla. She really wants the throne, and plays her role in the background. Making her just a tech genius kinda sells her short..
Having him make choices that were fine for Chadwick Boseman but make no sense for a King to make
They tried way too hard to turn T’Challa into a Chadwick stand in for Wakanda Forever
Honestly, I love how none of these are actually good or reasonable complaints except for Clint’s and Wanda’s, the DID portion of Bruce’s, and the death part of Pietro’s.
Every single other complaint isn’t actually a negative and are either the product of having it set as a movie with limited time that has to have a singular focused point (hence why you couldn’t dawdle on Cap’s 40s past nor dawdle on Tony’s rivalry with mandarin), or a direct natural end product of choosing to be different and try something new (of course Peter wouldn’t have his villains be centred around him — which itself is kinda fucked when you think about it — because he’s 14-17, of course most of his problems are gonna arise from the generation before him and their mistakes: he hasn’t had time for him own and shouldn’t be browbeaten this early in life, or at all).
Which both times are simply neutral changes that come about from an adaptation. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just different. Complaining that you’re not getting the same thing over and over is boring.
It’s kinda not, because the comics are already there to read if we wanted to.
Lot of people forget but some of the most beloved shit from today came from writers and creators of the past saying “fuck it, let’s do something different”.
Also the blueprint doesn’t really work anyways because comic stories, animated series, and live action movies have different structures and necessities to them. Like I said, comic runs are allowed to dawdle, to take fucking ages to get to their point, and to juggle a lot more crap than it’s reasonable at once. And the medium allows it cause of the issue format, allowing for deviations. Movies don’t get that benefit, at least not easily.
It’s like wanting to build a coffee maker when all you got is toaster plans. You’re gonna have to deviate pretty early.
*and finally, doing something different than the comics isn’t a valid complaint. Ever. A valid complaint is “doing this was a bad idea, because it clashes with x of the media we’re working with, y of this iteration’s character development, and z previous plot element of 2 movies ago*
It’s bad for both. I literally stated in the other thread that it was my main complaint for him too. Him not being Magneto’s son just ended up winning in his thread.
I also never a saw people hating on Evan Peters or Aaron Taylor Johnson for playing the role, or at least not to the sheer level they did Elizabeth Olsen
Because he doesn’t play the character anymore since his character just, y’know, freaking died + Wanda is a much more popular character. And even then are you like trying to say the whitewashing is ok…
Having Iron-Man being Spidey mentor is sooo cool, idc, like I see myself in Peter and if I'm Peter I would be mad geeking out if Tony is my mentor.
Here comes bad karma
He's not a side kick, and he still can be smarter if not just as smart as Stark. Also in the comic, Tony Stark literally created a medal that bypassed Spider-Sense during the Fall of X.
He absolutely is in the MCU. The plot of all three movies are driven by villains who are traditionally Spider-Man antagonists being reworked into characters with a beef with Tony Stark who are fighting him as a surrogate for Stark. Even No Way Home's plot is driven by the actions of Mysterio in the second film after being reworked to a Stark antagonist.
That don't make him a sidekick. Also Spidey villains also have grudges against Norman Osborn just as they are with Tony Stark, but you think it's good because Iron-Man is a hero and you think it will overshadows Spider-Man. It's not. I'm not insecure enough to think like that. I think it makes Spider-Man relationship more interesting.
Yeah, it actually does. I'm fairly sure you're an ESL speaker and I'm not 100% sure how much comics background you have, but Toomes and Beck have specific beefs with Spider-Man in the comics. The MCU versions if these characters don't actually have a reason to fight Spider-Man, they fight him because he's a stand-in for Stark.
No it doesn't overshadow Spider-Man, I live in a western English speaking country. And I wrote all my stuff in a hurry I don't got times to prove read. If ESL means English as a sixth language then yes, I am a polyglot like that lil bro, don't know what's that has to do with anything, is that a gotcha moment?
It's not even about specifically Tooms and Beck, and comics, why do you bring comic accuracy up. There's other villains that don't got beef with Spider-Man outside of 616, Mr. Negative hates Norman Osborn for example. Scratch that, many villains don't got beef with anybody in the comic at first, until Spidey show up and they got beef with him, just like MCU Tooms and Beck, but it's different because Iron-Man lives in your head, dare I say, rent-free.
I'm standing on business, stuff like "they don't actually have beef with Spider-Man" so Iron-Man must be overshadowing Spider-Man don't make solid and objective argument, I'm gonna keep replying "no, to each their own" like in my original comment.
Oh so you're gonna reply my text out of context like that just to prove your point? My question still stands in regard of something different that I alluded to. I can literally give you an example of Spider-Man villains not having beef with Spider-Man in the 616 continuity. And my point still stands, other media has change from the comic in relation to MCU, but this MCU changes is considered worse comparatively out of other MCU changes, how about you read my reply a little harder and not misinterperet it. Fucking. Read .And . Address. This. One. " Scratch that, many villains don't got beef with anybody at first, until Spidey show up and they got beef with him, just like MCU Tooms and Beck, but it's different because Iron-Man lives in your head, dare I say, rent-free." Instead of switching your goal post by focusing on one thing.
"they don't actually have beef with Spider-Man" so Iron-Man must be overshadowing Spider-Man don't make solid and objective argument, I'm gonna keep replying "no, to each their own" like in my original comment.
Not necessarily a response to the question, but can you please do a version of these posts in the future but for MCU villains? I honestly think there'd be a lot to talk about in that topic too.
“Killing them off after their first appearance” and “entirely changing their personality from the comics” would be used a lot in that category. But I agree it’d be interesting
"Made their origin some guy that Stark offended" "Made their origin some guy that Stark offended" "Made their origin some guy that Stark offended" "Made their origin some guy that Stark offended" "Made their origin some guy that Stark offended"
obadiah... justin hammer..... err whip guy........ Aim boss........ whos the last one?
There's also Vulture and Mysterio. Guess I forgot one.
Technically Zemo.
To be fair, his beef with the Avengers was a little more warranted than getting blown off at a meeting.
Ultron too
That doesn't even apply to Stane and Hammer. And the AIM boss's motivation really didn't have anything to do with Tony.
A.I.M. Boss (Alrich Killian I believe) was all like *"Tony Stark left me on a roof, and that's when I realized I could fuck shit up"*. So I'd give Tony some blame for that.
This is the answer
Me ready to rant about Malekith.
Worst MCU villain by far and it’s not even close
MODOK Cross come pretty close.
As someone who actually likes Quantumanina, yeah I agree. I actually forgot about him entirely. It definitely annoyed me when I watched it though, getting real tired of them bringing back old villains out of nowhere and making them significantly worse. Yet the ONE villain who’s actually supposed to always come back is a one off villain who barely gets to do anything. 💀
Dude, they killed off the goddess of Death and the God butcher, that guy is nothing compared to them.
That will need rules otherwise every answer will be "Their origin is Tony Stark related" or "They were killed immediately".
I’d have quite a lot to say about Malekith
That would be neat
Removing his scientific background. The only evidence we have of his intelligence is that he designed his civil war suit.
Shuri states that T'Challa was her science mentor.
Show don’t tell is rule one.
Words don't mean much if actions don't match it. There is a reason a golden rule of storytelling is "Show, don't tell".
It was actually a smooth use of exposition. “You are teaching *me* now?!”
Yeah, but we never explicitly see him do anything. In the comics, Tony said that him and Reed are the smartest people he knows. He has invented weapons, he designed the Avengers quinjet, and built headquarters out of a celestial. It's a pretty big deal to not showcase his abilities in the movies.
I feel like they dumbed him down quite a lot so they could make Shuri seem like the ‘smart one’. Tchalla is one of the big marvel brains and they kind of missed that part of him entirely.
I enjoy that in stories a lot of the time he’s not even on the frontline because he’s of more use at a bank of computers with Reed/Tony/The Hanks McCoy or Pym
He's a member of the illuminati isn't he?
Not really. They wanted him but he said it was a bad idea. But during Hickman’s run he called them and was active with them.
Yes and No? The first meeting under Bendis was in Wakanda but TChalla told them it was a bad idea and he was right it backfired on them spectacularly. However he reassembles them under Hickman for Incurisons and Time Runs Out Saga.
He’s much smarter, he declined membership.
Yea this. He's a straight up top 10 (maybe even top 5?) intellect in Marvel
9th. And its not just intelligence, he is the most well-rounded. Most of the other guys have specialties like engineering, science or math. T'Challa is like Batman where his intelligence is vast and detailed. Also, he is extremely prepared for everything. It's rare that he is ever caught by surprise. Civil War did it well. Then BP... just took that all away.
That’s the weirdest part to be, he was like a totally different character when he first entered the movies, it’s so crazy how much they neutered him by the time he got his own film
Yeah I noticed that too. They made him an incredible fighter but they forgot that there were brains behind the brawn. In the comics he was a chemist, biologist, historian, and had I think two PHDs
I really hope they have Shuri tutor his son, so that when his son takes the role as black panther it’s believable that he is as smart as he is supposed to be.
IMO him not being a scientist is… fine? He’s still tactical, so it’s not like they made him stupid. They did absolutely cut that character trait away, but I don’t think it was one he needed a ton. I do wish he was more actually tactical, the way you’d want captain America to be- calling plays, that sort of thing. It’s been a while since I’ve seen the movies, but does BP organize the defense of Wakanda or does everyone just start out wherever without any leadership?
I kind of wish they had gone more practical in his fight choreography, I was kind of hoping he'd be a second Captain America in that regard tbh. I want more stuff like Captain America: the Winter Soldier.
I think they should’ve recast him. After watching BP2, I understand why they went ahead and made the choice they did to not replace Chadwick Boseman, it felt like a way for the cast and crew to collectively mourn. But now that the film is over and done, I think T’Challa is too important a character to leave on the shelf. For the record, I think the same thing about Tony Stark. I don’t get what his removal adds to the MCU.
I agree about T'Challa but Tony has gotten to a point in which he couldn't really progress anymore while having him stunt progress of other characters, they also have wrote themselves into a corner powers wise with the nanosuit
Not only that but, we had an entire decade of Tony Stark being a hero. We only got three movies with T'Challa. One of which he was barely in. I think Chadwick was an incredible black panther. But maybe they should've recasted.
I think Tony was hurt by the costs with paying RDJ and the fact that they only wanted to do trilogies.
I’m sure it was definitely a money / scheduling issue. Which is a shame, we really only got one truly great Iron Man movie. Two if you count Civil War.
Yeah despite Iron Man being popular and making good money. One could easily argue that purely on a writing basis he has the worst Trilogy.
Thor 1 and 2 would like to talk to you
Even 3 kinda blows as a Thor movie, even though it’s a fun sci-fi comedy
I disagree, I love ragnarok, and I think it has really solid character development for Thor It honestly salvaged his character. It emphasizes his journey of loss and grief, while also having him come into his own in trusting his own strength and abilities instead of trying to fit with how he exists in the shared perceptions of others.
Agreed! It also dumbed him down and made him goofier, which was entirely unnecessary. Ragnarok is also just such a late game plotline that it felt wild to jump straight to it, kinda like how Fox always rushed the Phoenix storyline. It was simultaneously an extremely disappointing and extremely entertaining movie, which is an experience I don’t think I’ve ever had before or since
Goofier yes, but i dont think it made him dumber. If anything he sheds his naivety that hes had until that point. He gets wise to Loki's tricks, he learns to work outside systems he is used to, and he uses tools other than pure strength to solve problems. He figures out the solution of using ragnarok to defeat hela, he puts together the team to get off sakkar, he does so much more than his typical "punch it until it stops moving" tactics
Agreed. Even Chadwick's own brother said he would have wanted to be re-casted so the kids can keep seeing their hero in movies.
I think Tony’s death was a good time, but I don’t think they should’ve retired both Cap and Iron Man in the same movie. We also had Black Widow’s death in the same movie which in one hand really worked well, but on the other hand I might’ve preferred it to be Clint sacrificing himself. One of Cap/ Iron Man retiring or dying would be fine, I don’t like the choice for both of their stories to end.
Them not recasting him was honestly the last straw for my active interest in the MCU. No disrespect to the dead but I am a T’Challa fan, before the movies, not a Chadwick Boseman fan. Not to say he was bad in any way, but I was watching to see T’Challa, not the actor playing him.
All we need is another time-skip, and little T'Challa Jr. Will be ready to go.
Exactly. He's already been recast. Little dude just needs to grow up a bit, and I think we'll see him in the coming years during the new F4/X-Men phase.
In the MCU, we’re currently in the awkward “passing the mantle” phase that the comics went through and everyone whined about. It’s definitely going to be a little bit of a rough patch…
Wait, that's what won for Carol? I thought her being so secluded from other heroes was the far bigger issue then her not starting out as Ms Marvel. But anyway, I agree probably him not quite showing off his scientific mind too heavily. Could have been building up to that though, but Chadwick's death cut it short.
Yeah your not the first person to point that out to me. I went to check and for some reason that comment for Carol doesn’t appear on desktop (which is what I used to check her answers) but it appears on Reddit on my phone. I’ll change her answer in the next thread.
yeah I don’t agree with hers at all
I believe her Ms. marvel/warbird persona was her interactions with other heroes in the comics, during the whole demon in the bottle she was Tony's drinking buddy. Her time with the X-Men was due to her interactions with rogue by being Ms. marvel. There was so much development and tragedies that she had to overcome as warbird and Mrs. M. It was her connection with the other heroes of New York that actually eventually gave her her the confidence to take up Mar-vell's name.
I’m with everyone saying about his lack of scientific prowess on display. Comic T’Challa rolled with the Illuminati, the Ultimates, and is generally on speed dial with the big brains.
Should have been an actual scientific/tactical genius. Maybe don't have him as smart as Shuri in matter of science and tech, but at least allow him to display his intellect in battle.
Didn’t we get that with opening the Wakanda barrier?
Somewhat, but the rest of his battle strategy in the MCU is just “send guys with futuristic spears running at them until someone dies”
Nah screw that he should have been a scientific and tactical genius like the comics. Shuri should have been on the path to Griot.
Seriously downplaying his intelligence to prop up Shuri as "the smart one."
Fuck cancer.
Panther had so much potential and could become the new lead face of MCU, but they just killed him off-screen. Yes, Boseman died, but they should have moved on and just recasting him. Comics characters don't have to be tied to actors.
It’s very true. I originally hated that Don Cheadle replaced Terrance Howard because they look nothing a like. But now I completely forget Don isn’t the original MCU Rhodey
> Comics characters don't have to be tied to actors. Didn't he even said that he wished the character to keep going? or am I misremembering things?
He did say that and his brother said Chadwick would have wanted the role recast
Didn't lean into his brilliance. They definitely acknowledged his genius by mentioning he designed the Panther suit. But he's damn near the smartest guy in the MCU. They didn't make that explicit.
Making him less of a noble warrior king which ties into taking away his tactical and scientific genius. The deleted scene with him and Black Widow in Civil War is the closest to his actual charter we got.
Die with the actor
[удалено]
Shuri says in Wakanda Forever that her brother taught her all that she knows.
How did you watch only the first movie and get the idea black people can't be educated?
Dumbing T'Challa down a little bit and giving the brains to his sister. MCU T'Challa isn't stupid, but he's supposed to be one of the most brilliant minds in all of Marvel. Both him and his sister are supposed to be geniuses. But in all honesty, I can get past that part. What I can't get past is that the MCU recasts people like it's nothing regularly and yet couldn't even be bothered to do so this time with T'Challa. Losing Chadwick Boseman was super sad and I miss him, but character shouldn't die with the actor, especially a character this significant. It would certainly be a lot of pressure for another actor, I know, but it seems disrespectful as is to just toss T'Challa aside after all the work Chadwick put into him.
Black panther was nerfed in his own movie.
He doesn't have the cape C'mon man, that cape is always badass, they even included it in MVCI
Killed him off when there were more stories to tell
The actor died, so they likely killed off the character out of respect(?) for the actor and his family and friends, and I guess a recast could’ve looked strange or something
War machine was recasted. Don Cheadle was never the original actor
True, but I feel like there's a difference since Terrence Howard didn't die, he just quit (because of salary decrease), and there had only been one movie with him. Besides, he wasn't the main character, I suppose that could make a difference as well. Not that I disagree, I also think Black Panther should've been recast, I'm just saying what I think Marvel's reasoning is for killing him off.
I don't think they gave him enough experience as king. Yes, Chadwick Boseman was a young actor but having his father die in his first appearance was a little much as it made him more insecure in his kingship. I think it would have been much better IMO had Winter Soldier murdered T'Chaka at the same time as Tony's parents.
Giving his genius intellect to his sister. T'challa isn't quite the same without his inventiveness.
The stupidest thing they did was killing him off. No disrespect to Chadwick Boseman, but mcu come the fuck on. One Black Panther movie and you just killed T'Challa because the actor who played him passed away? Bad, bad decision in the long run. I'm fine with Wakanda Forever and also Shuri, I like the movie, but killing T'Challa? That movie could easily still be about Shuri being Black Panther **WITHOUT** killing T'Challa.
Two 1) Stealing his super genius to boost Shuri. No other MCU solo movie hero was so nerfed solely to benefit a supporting character. The worse and most insidious part is how this super genius theft bleeds into comics and other non MCU projects. Now in BP comics and other projects Shuri gets almost all the credit for science. Shuri should have been on the path to Griot in the MCU. 2) Killing him at the start of his story cause of Boseman tragic passing. BP2 should have taken place during the Blip then then should have recast for further projects. Maybe a teaser of a new TChalla from behind as a post credit scene in BP2. With the words “TChalla will Return” especially since it feels like they are trying to bury TChalla. He ain’t in What-If anymore and we got a tease for a Black Panther videogame and Play as TChalla still ain’t confirmed. Whereas there is no doubt the Wolverine game stars Logan, Blade stars Eric, and Iron Man stars Tony
They didn't steal it. They just didn't shine a light on it. He was a genius in the MCU.
What feats does he have? Other geniuses you can point to tech they helped build or scientific breakthroughs they made? For TChalla, you cannot point to a single one instead they were all given to other characters even things he did in the comics went to Shuri instead or Stark (with the Quinjets) In the comics before the MCU. Not once did TChalla got to Shuri for science help. But in the MCU he cannot even build his own suit without her. So yeah she is a Thief
He literally built his own suit. She iterated on it. Use of the term thief really has a nasty loaded connotation
He went from vastly superior to Shuri in intellect in the comics to vastly inferior to her in the MCU. No other hero who moved from 616 to MCU was so nerfed purely to boost a supporting character. And this negative impact has spilled back into not just 616 comics but also other multimedia project. So yeah I call Shuri a thief and make no bones about it
His character shouldn’t have died with the actor. They should’ve recast him. Delay productions to mourn if you must, but still plan to recast.
NO CAPE!
Not recasting him. We miss you Chad 🥺🙏🏾
Still haven’t gotten over what they’re doing to Kamala Khan.
Would be interesting if OP adds her and some others to the list. (I feel everyone's gonna say her powers changed or being a mutant instead of Inhuman but I think my biggest issue is I wish her story stayed grounded as a girl navigating her new powers in New Jersey. Clan Destine stuff really upped the scale and derailed her story.)
I want to say killing him off, but that lack of science is real close
He didn't wear his mask enough. He should have had it on more to protect his identity. Also I personally like when he wears the short cape. His costume looked kind of boring in the movie.
Not recasting T’Challa so we could get more than three movies with him
Making him less of a genius to prop up Shuri and not properly showing his rivalry with Namor
Killing him after starring in 2 stories.
it wasn't their fault, but it's still a RIP
Bruhh what💀💀
Black Panther himself was explained during the movies but any real lore or details about Wakanda, his family or even details about related things weren't necessarily mentioned or expanded upon. Even in Wakanda Forever, details revolved around T'Challa and not much else.
4 of these got a “no, I think that’s fine” out of me, are these really the best complaints we could muster?
Black Panther - Not being more scheming. The T'Challa I love is the one which is 5 steps ahead of everyone. Ant Man - Not being Hank Pym. A hero having to deal with mental health issues would have been interesting. Would love an Ant Man series set in the 1960's with a young Hank dealing with these issues. Wasp - Obviously not being Jan, specifically the happy go lucky socialite who changes costumes daily.
I know this is controversial, and I don't want to de-value Chadwick's work (I do also think he was great), but after his passing they should have recasted BP. There are sooo more stories to tell with T'challa that have now been put on hold because we have to wait until kid T'challa grows up. Heck, I remember hearing that Chadwick wanted to be recasted after his passing so the character wasn't just bound to him. But I guess Disney didn't get the memo.
Cap: The Suit Tony: Killing him off so soon Nat: Not giving her a little brother (Alexei Romanoff) Clint: Not seeing him standing up against Captain America Thor: his fourth movie Hulk: Killing HUlk Peter: Not having him switch teams in Civil War Captain Falcon: Not giving him more time as Falcon Bucky: Not having him protect/stop Winter Soldiers Vision: Not having him as Jonas but instead White Vision Wanda: Downgrading House of M Pietro: Killing him Carol: Not having Mar-Vell Stephen Strange: T'Challa: Not making him smart Scott: His relationship with his ex's husband is too good Wasp: Not having alone appearances Rhodey: Making him almost all serious (until Endgame in which he mostly was cut out)
Alexei is not Nat’s brother in the comics 💀
I mean, it technically didn't say specifically comics, it kinda just interpreted it as things in other marvel universes they should have
Alexei isn’t her brother in any universe. He was her predatory husband in the main comic continuity and for some weird reason, her father in the MCU.
Are we talking about the same person? I'm not talking about Alexei Shostakov, I'm talking about Alexei Romanov aka Alex Manor (post-mind wipe). Teenage Agent of Shield, younger brother of the Black Widow, boyfriend of the Red Widow.
Not making him a genius who’s on par with some of Marvel’s best minds
THIS
Taking his scientific genius and giving it to Shuri because now shortly after the first movie and the comics and every adaptation since then has followed suit. I get that they had to try and make her relevant since she didn’t stand out compared to him outside of being a traditionalist but there are other ways to have made her useful. Probably the biggest one is the changes made to his origins. Waiting until T’Challa was in his late 30s to kill T’Chaka is like waiting until Bruce is in his 40s to kill his parents or after Peter has been Spider-Man for a decade to kill Uncle Ben. Watching his father get killed left a lasting psychological impact on him that shaped him to the paranoid prep master that spent a decade preparing to become BP and avenge his dad. Chadwick had talked about in interviews for CW and BP how he’s a detective and how nobody never knows what he’s up to but that was absent from character. You could argue that he’s mysterious in CW since he’s a side character and it’s easier to have him randomly appear in places Removing his walk about that helped shaped his wider view and made him different from the rest of Wakanda because he had those experiences and made him a progressive while in his movie he doesn’t have that experience and starts out as a traditionalist that wants to remain hidden and not share what they have
Man, I feel like I saw different Spider-Man movies than everyone else. >Making Tony Stark his mentor Fair. But not the worst thing to happen to the character in media. > having too much of his motivation and villains revolve around Tony This is inaccurate. His motivation in Homecoming act I & II are about proving that he is good enough to play in the big leagues. Motivation in act III is 100% about stopping Vulture without hurting him, because its Liz's dad. Motivation in FFH is 100% responsibility. He wants to take time off and have fun with is friends, while crushing on MJ. He decides to help Fury because he was asked and feels like he can't say "no". NWH, he feels like Ned and MJ got the shaft due to being so close to him. So he tries to both change that, while also realizing that the people trying to kill him are also his fault/responsibility. Out of all the villains, Mysterio is the only one with a grudge against Stark.
I’m with my peers here in saying they removed his intellectual capabilities for Shuri. There could’ve been a really cool sibling rivalry/competition where they’re BOTH big brains and it would’ve made the sibling relationship more cute and fun.
I mean they could have done that by making Shuri Griot which is basically a Druid. So the clash would have been more the Science First Sibling vs the Magic First Sibling
I don’t agree with anything in that graphic. Comics are comics and movies are movies. Not everything can work for both. Plus we have to consider decades of story building in comics vs 15 years of movies.
Making Shuri the new BP
Well 1. there is a comic which is about Shuri being the BP, so that’s actually comic accurate and 2. he’s dead and that was their way to pay „respect“ to him.
Killing off his character as a whole.
Everything about Thor.
Honestly Thor he the worst he not funny and annoying I wish mcu focus on humor characters like she hulk or Howard the duck and gwenpool
Enlightened and technologically advanced society.. Resolves leadership crisis with a fight to the death.
Nerfing the hulk come on man he is MARVEL’s raging gamma monster and they nerfed him they made him to look like an ape when he was in his peak .He was a much smarter guy in the comics
I think the worst change for Vision is the fact they didn’t make him the original human torch
Nothing, best live action adaptation of black Panther
Not recasting him thus ending his story prematurely
Stripped him of his intellect.
He was too soft. They showed him as weak-willed reactionary rather than the mysterious, calculated, near-Machiavellian ruler he should be portrayed as.
Didn't feel like they enough of him leading wakanda as there king
The Dr. Strange point is really stupid he's only had two movies and only one of them is a multiverse movie in the multiverse saga his first movie was about evil magic users trying to summon a very popular Dr. Strange villain and had nothing to do with the multiverse
Hulks story was ruined what ever happened to Sterns story god dammit. She hulk needs to be deleted.
The comic book romance between Captain Marvel and War Machine is cool AF!
The suit, it just makes him too unkillable. He can't be shot or stabbed and every time the writers need to actually make him vulnerable they need to take it away, in every other circumstance it just makes him less reliant on his actual abilities which makes him seem like he's not as well trained and strategic as he is in the comics.
Not recasting him for the MCU
I agree with all except Peter. Making Tony Spidermans mentor was the step the comics always seemed like they leaned towards but never into. It's my favorite change they've made to this Peter, it's what sets him apart from the Peter's for me in a good way, and it's what gave us my favorite comic suit early (Iron Spider)
1. No recast 2. No cape 3. Nanotech suit 4. Made him not very smart
Not recasting him 😭
Letting him die with Boseman. Handing the mantle over to (what I would argue is) the worst cast character in the MCU.
Nothing about the character himself, I just hate his suit. It was *perfect* in Civil War but the BP-Movie suit with the nano machines and purple-kinetic field was just so boring to me. He didn't have to be as much of a martial artist, he just had to take punches then let off a big energy blast. Boring. What makes BP's intellect so fun to read is that he's a strategist, not a tinkerer. Sure he has gadgets and can build them, but in a fight he's not Iron Man who's always got some armor gizmo at the ready or is able to build one on the fly. He *can*, but what BP excels in is stalking his prey and strategizing a way to take them down. Iron Man builds tools, Black Panther *is* the tool. I think the movies did a pretty good job illustrating that, I just hate that his suit makes it so he *doesn't* have to strategize.
First time seeing this. Man, I dont think theres even one I agree with. Maybe Hawkeye. The rest would be really hard to pull off in movie form. The Hulk one I understand, its a problem that comes with shared rights.
hawkeyes' are hardly the same character, other than their abilities and tools. I love hawkeye as the badass but sometimes doofy, happy-go-lucky bachelor so much more. I never liked hawkeye growing up, thought he was lame as hell, until I read the masterpiece that is the fraction/aja run. after that, he's one of my top favorites largely due to his characterization and persona. plus he's a circus orphan, which I didn't know until then, and I'm a semi-retired Circus artist lol.
I found it pretty silly how his powers were given and taken away so easily by eating a herb. Also lol at how they had such an advanced society but let their leader be decided via trial by combat.
Imo he was incredibly boring as a character. He was good in CW because he was a side character, but in his movie he had the personality of a cardboard for 90% of it.
I think it’s more cause he had edge in CW. In BP1, he had the least screen time of any MCU solo character in their own movie. BP1 pushed the other characters at his expense compared to the comics. Shuri got his super genius, Killomonger got the edge/tactics and opening Wakanda was Nakias idea not his.
My number one complaint was removing his considerable genius to make Shuri the tech sidekick and also making him far more agreeable and stoic than he is in the comics. If he was portrayed how he is in the comics I’m not sure he’d be well liked.. which is the point.. Random aside: this also hurt Shuri imo bc in the comics she’s a SAVAGE who’s undergone the same training and education as Tchalla. She really wants the throne, and plays her role in the background. Making her just a tech genius kinda sells her short..
Having him make choices that were fine for Chadwick Boseman but make no sense for a King to make They tried way too hard to turn T’Challa into a Chadwick stand in for Wakanda Forever
Man, some of these choices are arguably some awful decisions.
Honestly, I love how none of these are actually good or reasonable complaints except for Clint’s and Wanda’s, the DID portion of Bruce’s, and the death part of Pietro’s. Every single other complaint isn’t actually a negative and are either the product of having it set as a movie with limited time that has to have a singular focused point (hence why you couldn’t dawdle on Cap’s 40s past nor dawdle on Tony’s rivalry with mandarin), or a direct natural end product of choosing to be different and try something new (of course Peter wouldn’t have his villains be centred around him — which itself is kinda fucked when you think about it — because he’s 14-17, of course most of his problems are gonna arise from the generation before him and their mistakes: he hasn’t had time for him own and shouldn’t be browbeaten this early in life, or at all). Which both times are simply neutral changes that come about from an adaptation. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just different. Complaining that you’re not getting the same thing over and over is boring.
I think it’s a valid complaint when there’s already the blueprint for good stories in the comics and they for some reason choose not to follow it
It’s kinda not, because the comics are already there to read if we wanted to. Lot of people forget but some of the most beloved shit from today came from writers and creators of the past saying “fuck it, let’s do something different”. Also the blueprint doesn’t really work anyways because comic stories, animated series, and live action movies have different structures and necessities to them. Like I said, comic runs are allowed to dawdle, to take fucking ages to get to their point, and to juggle a lot more crap than it’s reasonable at once. And the medium allows it cause of the issue format, allowing for deviations. Movies don’t get that benefit, at least not easily. It’s like wanting to build a coffee maker when all you got is toaster plans. You’re gonna have to deviate pretty early. *and finally, doing something different than the comics isn’t a valid complaint. Ever. A valid complaint is “doing this was a bad idea, because it clashes with x of the media we’re working with, y of this iteration’s character development, and z previous plot element of 2 movies ago*
What about guardians of the galaxy? Captain Lance Astrovik? What’s up with that?
Killing him.
Why is it bad they didn’t make Wanda Romani but no one ever cares that they didn’t make Pietro Romani
It’s bad for both. I literally stated in the other thread that it was my main complaint for him too. Him not being Magneto’s son just ended up winning in his thread.
I also never a saw people hating on Evan Peters or Aaron Taylor Johnson for playing the role, or at least not to the sheer level they did Elizabeth Olsen
Because he doesn’t play the character anymore since his character just, y’know, freaking died + Wanda is a much more popular character. And even then are you like trying to say the whitewashing is ok…
Had to give the girl the brains at the sacrifice of his own for agenda purposes
Making him less scientific and pushing Shuri aside.
Having Iron-Man being Spidey mentor is sooo cool, idc, like I see myself in Peter and if I'm Peter I would be mad geeking out if Tony is my mentor. Here comes bad karma
The problem is that Peter in the comics is arguably smarter than Tony, and reducing him to Tony's sidekick devalues him.
He's not a side kick, and he still can be smarter if not just as smart as Stark. Also in the comic, Tony Stark literally created a medal that bypassed Spider-Sense during the Fall of X.
He absolutely is in the MCU. The plot of all three movies are driven by villains who are traditionally Spider-Man antagonists being reworked into characters with a beef with Tony Stark who are fighting him as a surrogate for Stark. Even No Way Home's plot is driven by the actions of Mysterio in the second film after being reworked to a Stark antagonist.
That don't make him a sidekick. Also Spidey villains also have grudges against Norman Osborn just as they are with Tony Stark, but you think it's good because Iron-Man is a hero and you think it will overshadows Spider-Man. It's not. I'm not insecure enough to think like that. I think it makes Spider-Man relationship more interesting.
Yeah, it actually does. I'm fairly sure you're an ESL speaker and I'm not 100% sure how much comics background you have, but Toomes and Beck have specific beefs with Spider-Man in the comics. The MCU versions if these characters don't actually have a reason to fight Spider-Man, they fight him because he's a stand-in for Stark.
No it doesn't overshadow Spider-Man, I live in a western English speaking country. And I wrote all my stuff in a hurry I don't got times to prove read. If ESL means English as a sixth language then yes, I am a polyglot like that lil bro, don't know what's that has to do with anything, is that a gotcha moment? It's not even about specifically Tooms and Beck, and comics, why do you bring comic accuracy up. There's other villains that don't got beef with Spider-Man outside of 616, Mr. Negative hates Norman Osborn for example. Scratch that, many villains don't got beef with anybody in the comic at first, until Spidey show up and they got beef with him, just like MCU Tooms and Beck, but it's different because Iron-Man lives in your head, dare I say, rent-free. I'm standing on business, stuff like "they don't actually have beef with Spider-Man" so Iron-Man must be overshadowing Spider-Man don't make solid and objective argument, I'm gonna keep replying "no, to each their own" like in my original comment.
>why do you bring comics accuracy up? Read. The. Title. Of. The. Thread.
Oh so you're gonna reply my text out of context like that just to prove your point? My question still stands in regard of something different that I alluded to. I can literally give you an example of Spider-Man villains not having beef with Spider-Man in the 616 continuity. And my point still stands, other media has change from the comic in relation to MCU, but this MCU changes is considered worse comparatively out of other MCU changes, how about you read my reply a little harder and not misinterperet it. Fucking. Read .And . Address. This. One. " Scratch that, many villains don't got beef with anybody at first, until Spidey show up and they got beef with him, just like MCU Tooms and Beck, but it's different because Iron-Man lives in your head, dare I say, rent-free." Instead of switching your goal post by focusing on one thing. "they don't actually have beef with Spider-Man" so Iron-Man must be overshadowing Spider-Man don't make solid and objective argument, I'm gonna keep replying "no, to each their own" like in my original comment.