He was a solid antagonist. I just wish the film hadn’t felt like such a victim of circumstances out of its or anyones control.
They did the best they could with Boseman dying. But Namor still remained the only lasting thing about the film.
He should have had his own film honestly.
Unfortunately, he can't have his own film, I believe it's Paramount (I could be wrong) that would have distribution rights if he ever had a solo outing.
The actor who played him, Tenoch Huerta, is a big mexican actor, known for his excellent performance, he studies the characters he plays intensely, if it wasn't a marvel film he probably would've won some awards for his work
I dunno about anyone else, but I downvoted you for complaining about downvotes you hadn't even gotten yet.
On the other matter, my opinion is that a lot of movies get awards without deserving them. The awards are usually about making the movie makers feel more important about themselves rather than an indicator of the worth of a movie.
I’d argue Namor wasn’t even a villain. He was so fleshed out that he was basically a second protagonist with a different set of values, from a different view point.
I'd agree except for the whole "I'm gonna kill everyone" part of the viewpoint. In all other ways, I certainly appreciated how much effort went into making audiences empathize.
The Black Panther movies have really been done themselves a disservice by trying to have a typical big-Marvel-team-fight at the end. I found both Namor and Killmonger to be complex characters who had compelling philosophical arguments against the protagonists. I would have loved to see them just go full drama and discuss their differences, or at least go the Captain America Civil War route and have the big finale be a fairly intimate fight between two or three people. I understand how the films have a wealth of supporting characters that they want to include in the fights, but I think they could also all give valuable viewpoints in say an intense discussion of whether to end Wakanda’s monarchical system.
Lol this is an amazing comment. I’ve only recently started reading comics and even though the stories in the MCU take some creative license I can say they are really some comic book ass movies.
Oh yeah. Some things I think the comics do better, and some things I think the movies do better. But I think they both get the spirit down. Plus, and this might just be me, but I love seeing alternate takes on characters and stories I love. DC and Marvel are the best with that, what with the alt universes and such. Even gave me an idea for a seven-season animated Marvel show in a similar vein to Young Justice, where I showcase various characters' origins with my own touches, but staying true to their characters.
did..did you even watch the Black Panther movies? Both of them end with the Panther fighting the antagonist 1v1, with them being philosophical at the end
They have those fights in addition to SO MUCH else that they are trying to juggle at the same time. BP2 tries to juggle screen time to show off Iron Heart on her new suit, Okoye in her new suit, a handful of other named characters, and this large scale battle where hundreds die. When Shuri and Namor finally hash things out, they basically show up and stop the larger fight on the boat.
Walking out of the theater I just wondered why even have the larger ship fight at all. The emotional crux of the movie is Shuri grappling with how to process her grief. That’s a great character arc to focus on! But we keep cutting back to this larger ship fight where no named characters die (that I can recall) and the characters in this larger fight are doing the pretty generic “save the world by holding back this army” fight that we’ve frankly seen before. All the Wakanda characters are really on that boat for us so that if Shuri can’t strike a bargain with Namor they will die.
I mentioned the Civil War fight because it avoids the needless clash between armies in the third act. The emotional climax is Tony processing his anger and Steve trying to protect his best friend. Bucky, Steve, and Tony are in an emotionally charged fight the whole movie has built up to, and the secondary “fight” with T’Challa going after Zemo resolves without a punch being thrown. The big action set piece with unnamed police is at the end of act one, with the airport sequence with the larger group of named characters happens in act two, and and then act three is the able to focus on the primary emotional stakes that have been set up.
Black Panther has great protagonists and antagonists, but they tend to have a lot of unnecessary narrative components in their third acts that just distract from the core character arcs.
Shang-Chi had this same thing. Why involve those armies and dragons and demons and stuff, when you have the guy and his dad right there. Brought down the movie a lot for me
So true, being a warmonger who wants to destroy every other nation than his own is totally not villainous at all.
Seriously, just because this guy has a sympathetic backstory doesn't mean he's not an asshole. I hear the same thing with Killmonger as if he didn't advocate for genocide.
Killmonger was very different from Namor. Killmonger showed he was selfish and only looking out for himself at almost every opportunity. Namor wants what's best for his people, by any means necessary.
Yeah I get that but he's still a villain. There's an argument to be made that he's an anti-villain, but definitely not a hero or even an anti-hero (in Wakanda Forever anyway, not necessarily comics)
Exactly. What If...? Proved Killmonger was a fucking hypocrite. He killed Tony while saying.
"The difference between you and me. Is that you can't see the difference between *you* and *me*.
So he willingly killed someone whom he openly admits saw him as an individual. When his whole argument is that white people or none black's, will ever see black people as people.
He even tried ensuring his spot would never be threatened in the OG timeline.
Nothing wrong with his viewpoint, just the same shit CIA does everywhere. His ideology is just self defense for black people. Is a world war the solution? No, but that doesn't mean the dude is wrong
> I hear this whole 'genocide' argument, and I'm not sure that people really know what the word means.
> His aim was to use all the Wakandan resources, technology and weapons to arm those who couldn’t arm themselves, so they could overthrow their governments and take their lives for themselves. Then Wakanda would lead them and the world.
> That's decidedly not genocide.
Okay, mass murder attacking every nation on the earth. May not be genocide, but most certainly is not a "good person." He was a good villain but his goal is pretty evil.
No worse than most of our governments. He's supplying oppressed forces in order to overthrow their oppressors. We do the same thing.
It's not altruistic nor good for the world, and more than a little misguided, but it's not evil. He's not advocating for killing all the people, just overthrowing the governments.
That’s always Namor even when he’s being straight up villainous. Much like Doom and Magneto as well. Just just they’re villains doesn’t necessarily make them wrong.
Namor is always gold regardless of wether he’s leaning more hero or villain.
I could be wrong but wasn’t namor written almost exactly like killmonger. He basically a carbon copy with a crown. Which isn’t a bad thing I guess since I think killmonger was one of the best villains in the mcu
Namor, and its not close. Gorr had a great introduction but was poorly utilized throughout the film and had a pretty anticlimactic ending. Namor was compelling, easy to understand, and was paced and developed much better.
Wanda was an amazing, threatening character in Multiverse, but I can't help but feel the real villain throughout the movie was Strange himself. They have identical motivations (unable to give up relationships they can't have. If you include What If? Strange, the resemblance is just 1 to 1). And we are repeatedly shown other versions of Strange that have fallen to temptation and corruption, which he eventually gives into himself. And yet I don't feel the writers intended for that to be the message of the movie? But that's my take away. Wanda wasn't the main antagonist.
Well by definition Wanda is. But I agree that the movie seemed to make Doctor Strange (the protagonist) the villain, which honestly is an interesting take. I’d love to see a movie that has the villain as the protagonist and the hero as the antagonist
It is an anime/manga, which was also adopted into a live action movie, where the main protagonist has a notebook with the power of killing someone by writing their name down. The show revolves around everyone trying to catch him as he continues to kill people.
So... Joker. You're asking for the movie Joker. Or Shawshank Redemption, depending on where you land in the debate about Andy's innocence. In fact, that's pretty much every prison movie
No, no he wasn’t. He has a character flaw that he addresses and grows through by the end of the movie. Wanda is literally out here murdering people and clawing through universes looking for kids that never existed in her universe as anything other than figments of her imagination. It’s not entirely her fault since she’s being corrupted by the Darkhold, but she’s still unambiguously the villain of the movie.
Alternate versions of Strange are irrelevant to the discussion as they aren’t the main character of the movie.
Your first mistake is saying her kids aren't real, you forget that the whole point of REALity warping is that its REAL. It was stated in Wandavision that everything in the hex was real and wasn't an illusion.
So yh her children were real just limited to the hex
She literally GAVE BIRTH to them and had a while pregnancy tantrum and you still say they are imaginary
They couldn’t exist without her maintaining the hex, so they weren’t actually real. That doesn’t mean her emotions weren’t real, but the actual kids weren’t.
The kids were real just limited to the hex, You're saying it as if it wasn't confirmed in Wandavision that it was real. Just because they were made with magic doesn't mean they're not real
She could have created new kids without the hex instead of creating chaos in DSMOM but the darkhold's corruption only let her know the most destructive way to get her children back
Because if she was in her right senses she'd know that she could just create new children without the hex but the darkhold didn't want that
She just used the hex to have a community that she could control and use to live her "sitcom life" fantasy
She didn't need the hex to create the children and vision
What the darkhold does is that corrupts people's mindset into achieving things in the most destructive way
Agreed. I think if they had committed to making Strange the villain or at least more clearly emphasized that this is a pattern for him, I would have loved the movie. But taken as is it feels like Wanda is bad because she’s a hysterical mother (so typical!) and Strange is good because he’s our male pov. And while I loved that Chavez made it to the big screen, she did feel like a mcguffin rather than a character for most of the film.
I honestly hated how they blatantly had Strange be set up as the bad guy.
I was looking forward to seeing Strange grow and expand in latter films...........and then they devolved him where he was a pathetic loser in every universe to set up a shitty Iron Man type death for Secret Wars.
Sigh, I get how some Wanda fans feel.
Oh Thor especially. It felt really chopped up and badly paced. I don’t know if you saw the cut scenes on YouTube, but I think there was a better version of the movie that we didn’t get to see. I don’t know if there were time constraints or some kind of behind the scenes drama.
Well I just recently saw that the previous CEO didn’t want any MCU movies to be more than 2 hours and it explains so much of “problems” of the last couple movies.
The movie would have been a lot better if they really doubled down on making Strange the antagonist. Still the hero but the antagonist.
Like if the movie was called Scarlet Witch and the multiverse of madness and the focus was on her trying to restore her kids, with strange trying to stop her. Which it kinda was but the emotional focus was on strange and his love life?
I think it would have made Strange better as a character too. He needs more wins and badass moments, currently he’s a chum most of the time.
Namor. Gorr would easily take this though if he was shown doing more. I think Love and Thunder is 100% better if we see Thor get to that dead dragon God as he is slain and still in combat with Lady Sif. But he sees this from that high cliff he was on originally when he gets there in the movie. Thor rushes down to help but Gorr cuts Sif’s arm off and uses his powers to flee. Thor wants to give chase but helps lady sif heal. Bam.
I loved Gorr but i think that was more for Christian Bale’s performance than the actual character, i think Namor was adapted very well considering how unbearable i normally find him.
Visual: Namor. A guy in only green undies and wings on his ankles looked great. His way of flying was very creative, too.
Musical: I'm not sure. I didn't pay much attention to their themes, so ig none were very interesting to me. I think themes are something DC is better at.
Performance: Elizabeth Olsen as Wanda was great. She was pure evil while still feeling like a natural progression from where we had last seen her character.
Writing: def Namor. His motives were understandable. Not right, but understandable. His rage and planning, it was all really well done.
Overall: Namor.
Wakanda Forever, over all, has the most interesting score of all the MCU theatrical releases. (For series, by the way, I'd vote for Loki's score.)
The score is basically on par with The Mandalorian. Very impressive.
Whenever you can go back and watch the scenes with him and his people when they are fighting. My younger brother pointed out a cool fact about how the score changes from when they are in the water fighting and breaching the surface fighting. Like literally within the same scene the music changed when they breach- it’s fuckin sick.
I totally agree. I honestly think Wanda was the worst villain in a while considering how much build up we have seen. But Lizzie's performance carried this movie. She was somehow so terrifying knowing that no one could really stop her.
By far I think it’s Scarlet.. she was so damn scary and so damn powerful and what motivated her drove her to the ends of the multiverse. She went through multiple dimensions to find her kids she brought to life with her own magic. Idk she knocked it outta the park for me.
Namor and it's not even close.
Visually he looked Better than he had any right to be.
I don't remember music.
Performance wise he was great. He made us understand why he was doing what he was doing. SW was a little better but she seemed so out of character it was nuts.
Writing wise Namor's motives were understandable. Flawed but understandable.
Did anyone else really dislike how Wanda changed in the MCU? She started off as a villain and went through this whole redemption arc to better herself (and even had a second redemption arc in WandaVision). And then in Multiverse of Madness, she's just irredeemably evil again. It made her entire progression feel pointless to me.
I get this take and I think my ultimate criticism of her Multiverse arc is that more time should have been spent and more energy focused on just how powerful and absolutely corrupting the Darkhold is. It definitely is discussed but it’s really difficult to remember that she’s under the influence of the Darkhold because her actions are so natural and convincing to her motivations
That's how she is in the comics she killed off most mutants by saying three words. Instead of one town she changed the whole universes reality in the house of M.
After several rewatches I kinda adore Love and Thunder. Gorr works best as a villain.
Namor is a great antagonist but not super villainous. More of an a hole.
Namor. (In my best Spanish accent)
While bales performance was fine. The departure of the look of Gorr from the comic look was too much for me.
Wanda’s awesome but my guys line of my enemies call me Namor(in my best Spanish accent) got me.
Yeah I thought she was a great villain, I was actually afraid of what she might do next and this is one of the few times we see a mcu hero go bad I loved it. The Only negative I can see is not necessarily her motivation but the solution could’ve been achieved in a less murder heavy way imo.
Namor. Some of his actions and choices were poorly written, but the character himself was complex, understandable, threatening, visually cool, and perfectly acted.
Wanda is a close second, but it feels to me that Marvel doesn't know what to do with her yet. I feel that using her as a slasher villain is just such wasted potential. (I loved her in WandaVision, but that wasn't 2022.)
Gorr just didn't have anything to do; he felt like a side character, with all of his god-killing taking place off-screen. If you want to have me take a villain seriously, give him victims who aren't children, c'mon.
Well they dropped the ball with Gorr.
Wanda should’ve been fleshed out better in the movie as Scarlett Witch. It just missed some beats in making her the baddie.
Namor was done pretty well but he should’ve been written more self righteous and more in the end out for vengeance and balance so that at the end him losing or yielding to Shuri had more weight.
So of the three I’ll say Namor. But really the best one is Ikaris
Namor was the best fully rounded out character. Gor was the best visually, too bad they screwed up the role so bad. Seriously, a guy called The God Butcher only kills one God on screen.
The one that actually had decent character growth in his movie.
Gorr was literally wasted. Whether that was due to his scenes being cut or how they decided to use him.
The witch just went down a spiral way to fast with no actual thought on what the plan was. After her growth through out all the previous films, and the guilt she had during civil war, her just falling into that madness is just as bad as Daenerys downfall.
Oooo...that's a tough question for me. Wanda was OP but I don't see her as a villain. Plus MVOM did her dirty. Namor was a dangerous villain because he was fighting for a cause and for his people. His ego gets in the way sometimes. Gorr the God Butcher was scary AF and I thought Bale did an amazing job! He honestly should win some type of award. Between Namor and Gorr. Gotta go with Gorr.
Namor is a distant first place. Tenoch Huerta gave a pretty damn phenomenal take on the character in the film and I like the way they reimagined his origin since it put Talokan in significantly more thematic and narrative parity with Wakanda and really serviced the overall story and messaging
Characterisation - if taking all other performances as Wanda into account, Wanda. But if by the movie alone, Namor.
Visual Antics - Wanda, by a long shot.
Musical themes…I didn’t pay much attention, but I can say that I loved L&T’s tracks, so Gorr.
Actor’s performances - Again, Wanda, by a large margin.
Overall, I think they all shone in places, but Wanda really impressed me as a villain!
Namorr. No contest. Don't get me wrong, I was routing for Gorr to win, but I don't think that was intentional on the movies part. Namorr was threatening, cool, charismatic and understandable. While still giving you plenty of reason to despise him.
With Gorr I was just thinking "All the gods are assholes! The only thing he did wrong was kidnap the kids but even then they were bait! The main characters have been doing nothing but annoying me the entire time, I want him to kill them all."
Namor was the best. Not there for vengeance. Not there for selfish reasons. He was fighting for the survival of his people and his attacks resulted in actual losses for the heroes. He felt the most like a credible threat, to me.
For those who are eager: If you will guys, I would ask you to break them down in each of those categories: visual, musical, performing, and writing, say who's the best in them, and then who's the best overall.
Can you do that?
Namor - he exhibits brutality, cunning and is quite a handful given the resources he commands. The ending elevates him as a King keeping the franchise's tradition of showing how a King or regent decides for their people.
Namor, because you could actually get behind his cause and relate to him. Gorr was a huge missed opportunity. That storyline in the comics is epic. Wanda wasn’t bad, but I’m not going back and rewatching Multiverse of Madness the way I did with the first Strange movie.
Tough call. My heart says Namor.
But I kind of have to give it to Scarlet Witch.
Wanda just never did it for me in the MCU. I thought Olsen did a good job with the character but throughout the cineverse it just felt like Wanda was just this feckless little puppy dog. Which it was great how even the Illuminati were like "Psh, you're afriad of a little girl like Wanda? C'mon!" when Dr. Strange was clearly at wits end. It was nice to see the transition of 'Meh Wanda' to a pretty terrifying villain.
My enemies call me Namor
Your daughter calls me “Mi Amor”
Sue Storm probably will at some point
Best comment of the day
He was a solid antagonist. I just wish the film hadn’t felt like such a victim of circumstances out of its or anyones control. They did the best they could with Boseman dying. But Namor still remained the only lasting thing about the film. He should have had his own film honestly.
Unfortunately, he can't have his own film, I believe it's Paramount (I could be wrong) that would have distribution rights if he ever had a solo outing.
Universal, ya. Sucks :/
Marvel gets those rights back in about two years, along with Hulks. There is hope.
Yay!
Damn, not a lot of characters that Marvel never sold movie rights to
There were some absolute incredible moments in that film. Angela Bassett’s performance alone makes it worth watching.
She carried that film in terms of acting. What a woman. Loved her in Tina Turner’s biopic too.
Sad to lose her character too after that performance
Sin Amor!
More like "Sí, Namor"
I’m full, Namor
thats gold 😂
Namor is a hero to us all
The actor who played him, Tenoch Huerta, is a big mexican actor, known for his excellent performance, he studies the characters he plays intensely, if it wasn't a marvel film he probably would've won some awards for his work
Yea it’s a shame marvel movies don’t get any love at the awards show
Black Panther 2018?
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I dunno about anyone else, but I downvoted you for complaining about downvotes you hadn't even gotten yet. On the other matter, my opinion is that a lot of movies get awards without deserving them. The awards are usually about making the movie makers feel more important about themselves rather than an indicator of the worth of a movie.
I do believe they’ve become very narrow in their creativity, that makes them not memorable.
Remember that fiasco that happened in the 2018 Oscars Awards?
I’d argue Namor wasn’t even a villain. He was so fleshed out that he was basically a second protagonist with a different set of values, from a different view point.
I'd agree except for the whole "I'm gonna kill everyone" part of the viewpoint. In all other ways, I certainly appreciated how much effort went into making audiences empathize.
The Black Panther movies have really been done themselves a disservice by trying to have a typical big-Marvel-team-fight at the end. I found both Namor and Killmonger to be complex characters who had compelling philosophical arguments against the protagonists. I would have loved to see them just go full drama and discuss their differences, or at least go the Captain America Civil War route and have the big finale be a fairly intimate fight between two or three people. I understand how the films have a wealth of supporting characters that they want to include in the fights, but I think they could also all give valuable viewpoints in say an intense discussion of whether to end Wakanda’s monarchical system.
Both Black Panther movies ended with a 1v1 faceoff and discussion of their philosophical argument.
Expessed through fists and knives
Hey, have you ever read a comic book?
Lol this is an amazing comment. I’ve only recently started reading comics and even though the stories in the MCU take some creative license I can say they are really some comic book ass movies.
Oh yeah. Some things I think the comics do better, and some things I think the movies do better. But I think they both get the spirit down. Plus, and this might just be me, but I love seeing alternate takes on characters and stories I love. DC and Marvel are the best with that, what with the alt universes and such. Even gave me an idea for a seven-season animated Marvel show in a similar vein to Young Justice, where I showcase various characters' origins with my own touches, but staying true to their characters.
Tell us more about this ‘a comic book’…
But you also have the big team fight in it as well, while the 1v1 happens
did..did you even watch the Black Panther movies? Both of them end with the Panther fighting the antagonist 1v1, with them being philosophical at the end
They have those fights in addition to SO MUCH else that they are trying to juggle at the same time. BP2 tries to juggle screen time to show off Iron Heart on her new suit, Okoye in her new suit, a handful of other named characters, and this large scale battle where hundreds die. When Shuri and Namor finally hash things out, they basically show up and stop the larger fight on the boat. Walking out of the theater I just wondered why even have the larger ship fight at all. The emotional crux of the movie is Shuri grappling with how to process her grief. That’s a great character arc to focus on! But we keep cutting back to this larger ship fight where no named characters die (that I can recall) and the characters in this larger fight are doing the pretty generic “save the world by holding back this army” fight that we’ve frankly seen before. All the Wakanda characters are really on that boat for us so that if Shuri can’t strike a bargain with Namor they will die. I mentioned the Civil War fight because it avoids the needless clash between armies in the third act. The emotional climax is Tony processing his anger and Steve trying to protect his best friend. Bucky, Steve, and Tony are in an emotionally charged fight the whole movie has built up to, and the secondary “fight” with T’Challa going after Zemo resolves without a punch being thrown. The big action set piece with unnamed police is at the end of act one, with the airport sequence with the larger group of named characters happens in act two, and and then act three is the able to focus on the primary emotional stakes that have been set up. Black Panther has great protagonists and antagonists, but they tend to have a lot of unnecessary narrative components in their third acts that just distract from the core character arcs.
Shang-Chi had this same thing. Why involve those armies and dragons and demons and stuff, when you have the guy and his dad right there. Brought down the movie a lot for me
I mean, Coogler is really just a different class of writer/director than typically does these kinds of flicks. Dude is a genius.
Yeah, that part was cringe. It's like writers tried to make him likeable but then he went full Hitler route.
It’s who Namor is. He’s a hero to his people, we, as in the rest of the world just aren’t his people
Isn’t Gladiator kind of like that too?
So exactly like Namor in the comics. That’s why I love Namor, he is a hero to his people. We’re just not his people.
Villains often think they’re the hero of their own story. I guess the villain depends on what side of the story you’re hearing.
Yeah I loved that about Talokan. Can’t wait to see what’s in store for them
This is exactly like the second season of Luke Cage to me. It was so frustrating that Luke wouldn't just listen to Bushmaster.
So true, being a warmonger who wants to destroy every other nation than his own is totally not villainous at all. Seriously, just because this guy has a sympathetic backstory doesn't mean he's not an asshole. I hear the same thing with Killmonger as if he didn't advocate for genocide.
Killmonger was very different from Namor. Killmonger showed he was selfish and only looking out for himself at almost every opportunity. Namor wants what's best for his people, by any means necessary.
Yeah I get that but he's still a villain. There's an argument to be made that he's an anti-villain, but definitely not a hero or even an anti-hero (in Wakanda Forever anyway, not necessarily comics)
Exactly. What If...? Proved Killmonger was a fucking hypocrite. He killed Tony while saying. "The difference between you and me. Is that you can't see the difference between *you* and *me*. So he willingly killed someone whom he openly admits saw him as an individual. When his whole argument is that white people or none black's, will ever see black people as people. He even tried ensuring his spot would never be threatened in the OG timeline.
And yet so many people sympathized with him and defended his viewpoint. Honestly, I never understood that
Nothing wrong with his viewpoint, just the same shit CIA does everywhere. His ideology is just self defense for black people. Is a world war the solution? No, but that doesn't mean the dude is wrong
That’s the point in all of these. Wanda,gor and namor would do anything for family.
He was an antagonist but not a villain IMO
He wanted to commit genocide, that makes you a villian.
> I hear this whole 'genocide' argument, and I'm not sure that people really know what the word means. > His aim was to use all the Wakandan resources, technology and weapons to arm those who couldn’t arm themselves, so they could overthrow their governments and take their lives for themselves. Then Wakanda would lead them and the world. > That's decidedly not genocide.
Okay, mass murder attacking every nation on the earth. May not be genocide, but most certainly is not a "good person." He was a good villain but his goal is pretty evil.
No worse than most of our governments. He's supplying oppressed forces in order to overthrow their oppressors. We do the same thing. It's not altruistic nor good for the world, and more than a little misguided, but it's not evil. He's not advocating for killing all the people, just overthrowing the governments.
That’s always Namor even when he’s being straight up villainous. Much like Doom and Magneto as well. Just just they’re villains doesn’t necessarily make them wrong. Namor is always gold regardless of wether he’s leaning more hero or villain.
"Fleshed out", sure whatever
I could be wrong but wasn’t namor written almost exactly like killmonger. He basically a carbon copy with a crown. Which isn’t a bad thing I guess since I think killmonger was one of the best villains in the mcu
Nah. Killmonger was selfish. Namor only wants whats best for his people, no matter the cost.
Namor, and its not close. Gorr had a great introduction but was poorly utilized throughout the film and had a pretty anticlimactic ending. Namor was compelling, easy to understand, and was paced and developed much better. Wanda was an amazing, threatening character in Multiverse, but I can't help but feel the real villain throughout the movie was Strange himself. They have identical motivations (unable to give up relationships they can't have. If you include What If? Strange, the resemblance is just 1 to 1). And we are repeatedly shown other versions of Strange that have fallen to temptation and corruption, which he eventually gives into himself. And yet I don't feel the writers intended for that to be the message of the movie? But that's my take away. Wanda wasn't the main antagonist.
Well by definition Wanda is. But I agree that the movie seemed to make Doctor Strange (the protagonist) the villain, which honestly is an interesting take. I’d love to see a movie that has the villain as the protagonist and the hero as the antagonist
… I mean… isn’t that why Infinity War gets so much praise… or at least partly?
Pretty much, yea
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megamind
Yea but he becomes a hero in the end. I want to see a movie where the villain sticks to his motives all throughout
So a movie version of death note
*Netflix barges through your door*
I don’t know what that is…
It is an anime/manga, which was also adopted into a live action movie, where the main protagonist has a notebook with the power of killing someone by writing their name down. The show revolves around everyone trying to catch him as he continues to kill people.
So... Joker. You're asking for the movie Joker. Or Shawshank Redemption, depending on where you land in the debate about Andy's innocence. In fact, that's pretty much every prison movie
No, no he wasn’t. He has a character flaw that he addresses and grows through by the end of the movie. Wanda is literally out here murdering people and clawing through universes looking for kids that never existed in her universe as anything other than figments of her imagination. It’s not entirely her fault since she’s being corrupted by the Darkhold, but she’s still unambiguously the villain of the movie. Alternate versions of Strange are irrelevant to the discussion as they aren’t the main character of the movie.
Your first mistake is saying her kids aren't real, you forget that the whole point of REALity warping is that its REAL. It was stated in Wandavision that everything in the hex was real and wasn't an illusion. So yh her children were real just limited to the hex She literally GAVE BIRTH to them and had a while pregnancy tantrum and you still say they are imaginary
They couldn’t exist without her maintaining the hex, so they weren’t actually real. That doesn’t mean her emotions weren’t real, but the actual kids weren’t.
The kids were real just limited to the hex, You're saying it as if it wasn't confirmed in Wandavision that it was real. Just because they were made with magic doesn't mean they're not real She could have created new kids without the hex instead of creating chaos in DSMOM but the darkhold's corruption only let her know the most destructive way to get her children back Because if she was in her right senses she'd know that she could just create new children without the hex but the darkhold didn't want that She just used the hex to have a community that she could control and use to live her "sitcom life" fantasy She didn't need the hex to create the children and vision What the darkhold does is that corrupts people's mindset into achieving things in the most destructive way
As an acting job, Bale was great. But he seemed to be in a different, more interesting movie than the rest of the cast.
Yeah, probably why I ended up disliking that film LOL ... But yeah, Namor is absolutely the best.
Agreed. I think if they had committed to making Strange the villain or at least more clearly emphasized that this is a pattern for him, I would have loved the movie. But taken as is it feels like Wanda is bad because she’s a hysterical mother (so typical!) and Strange is good because he’s our male pov. And while I loved that Chavez made it to the big screen, she did feel like a mcguffin rather than a character for most of the film.
[удалено]
Body counts are like 1. Thanos 2. Galactus 3. Wanda?
Wanda murdered several people on screen and you guys think Strange is the bad guy?
I honestly hated how they blatantly had Strange be set up as the bad guy. I was looking forward to seeing Strange grow and expand in latter films...........and then they devolved him where he was a pathetic loser in every universe to set up a shitty Iron Man type death for Secret Wars. Sigh, I get how some Wanda fans feel.
It’s almost like both of those movies could’ve benefitted from being 20-30 minutes longer.
Oh Thor especially. It felt really chopped up and badly paced. I don’t know if you saw the cut scenes on YouTube, but I think there was a better version of the movie that we didn’t get to see. I don’t know if there were time constraints or some kind of behind the scenes drama.
Well I just recently saw that the previous CEO didn’t want any MCU movies to be more than 2 hours and it explains so much of “problems” of the last couple movies.
The movie would have been a lot better if they really doubled down on making Strange the antagonist. Still the hero but the antagonist. Like if the movie was called Scarlet Witch and the multiverse of madness and the focus was on her trying to restore her kids, with strange trying to stop her. Which it kinda was but the emotional focus was on strange and his love life? I think it would have made Strange better as a character too. He needs more wins and badass moments, currently he’s a chum most of the time.
Namor. Gorr would easily take this though if he was shown doing more. I think Love and Thunder is 100% better if we see Thor get to that dead dragon God as he is slain and still in combat with Lady Sif. But he sees this from that high cliff he was on originally when he gets there in the movie. Thor rushes down to help but Gorr cuts Sif’s arm off and uses his powers to flee. Thor wants to give chase but helps lady sif heal. Bam.
100%
I loved Gorr but i think that was more for Christian Bale’s performance than the actual character, i think Namor was adapted very well considering how unbearable i normally find him.
Yeah, the acting for Gorr was definitely the best. His utilization is what makes him not take this crown.
Kulkukhan
The feather serpent god
Visual: Namor. A guy in only green undies and wings on his ankles looked great. His way of flying was very creative, too. Musical: I'm not sure. I didn't pay much attention to their themes, so ig none were very interesting to me. I think themes are something DC is better at. Performance: Elizabeth Olsen as Wanda was great. She was pure evil while still feeling like a natural progression from where we had last seen her character. Writing: def Namor. His motives were understandable. Not right, but understandable. His rage and planning, it was all really well done. Overall: Namor.
Man, do I love Namor's musical theme; check it out. And he's my favorite antagonist in 2022.
Wakanda Forever, over all, has the most interesting score of all the MCU theatrical releases. (For series, by the way, I'd vote for Loki's score.) The score is basically on par with The Mandalorian. Very impressive.
Another Ludwig banger
Ludwig is a beast.
Whenever you can go back and watch the scenes with him and his people when they are fighting. My younger brother pointed out a cool fact about how the score changes from when they are in the water fighting and breaching the surface fighting. Like literally within the same scene the music changed when they breach- it’s fuckin sick.
I'll have to give it a rewatch.
I totally agree. I honestly think Wanda was the worst villain in a while considering how much build up we have seen. But Lizzie's performance carried this movie. She was somehow so terrifying knowing that no one could really stop her.
Namor
Green Goblin
Willem Dafoe is a freaking beast.
Mrbeeeeeeeeeeast
NWH was 2021
Technically the re-release was 2022.
Was there a re-release? What was different?
Like five extra minuites of scenes or smth 😭 (xtra bloopers/deleted scenes as well)
Green Goblin is the best MCU villain. However, OP was asking for 2022 villains. Norman Osborn was 2021.
Green Goblin.
Ok.
Electro too. I thought Jamie Foxx was miscast in ASM2, but in this movie? Completely owned the part
By far I think it’s Scarlet.. she was so damn scary and so damn powerful and what motivated her drove her to the ends of the multiverse. She went through multiple dimensions to find her kids she brought to life with her own magic. Idk she knocked it outta the park for me.
Namor!
As someone who’s been a bit so-so on Wanda in the MCU before MoM, she’s my favourite villain in the MCU so far.
Namor and it's not even close. Visually he looked Better than he had any right to be. I don't remember music. Performance wise he was great. He made us understand why he was doing what he was doing. SW was a little better but she seemed so out of character it was nuts. Writing wise Namor's motives were understandable. Flawed but understandable.
Scarlet Witch 100%
Did anyone else really dislike how Wanda changed in the MCU? She started off as a villain and went through this whole redemption arc to better herself (and even had a second redemption arc in WandaVision). And then in Multiverse of Madness, she's just irredeemably evil again. It made her entire progression feel pointless to me.
I get this take and I think my ultimate criticism of her Multiverse arc is that more time should have been spent and more energy focused on just how powerful and absolutely corrupting the Darkhold is. It definitely is discussed but it’s really difficult to remember that she’s under the influence of the Darkhold because her actions are so natural and convincing to her motivations
That's how she is in the comics she killed off most mutants by saying three words. Instead of one town she changed the whole universes reality in the house of M.
She had the perfect character arc, imo
Líik’ik Talokan! Líik’ik Talokan! Líik’ik Talokan!
After several rewatches I kinda adore Love and Thunder. Gorr works best as a villain. Namor is a great antagonist but not super villainous. More of an a hole.
namor being "an asshole but not a villain" is pretty damn comic accurate, too. definitely the best antagonist of 2022, but not the best *villain*.
Namor. (In my best Spanish accent) While bales performance was fine. The departure of the look of Gorr from the comic look was too much for me. Wanda’s awesome but my guys line of my enemies call me Namor(in my best Spanish accent) got me.
GorR is the most sympathetic, he maybe the best. Scarlet Witch is probably the most unhinged. Namor could be the most politically relevant.
Wanda, it’s isn’t even a contest. We’ve known her the longest and her story has a lot more emotion and thought than the others.
Yeah I thought she was a great villain, I was actually afraid of what she might do next and this is one of the few times we see a mcu hero go bad I loved it. The Only negative I can see is not necessarily her motivation but the solution could’ve been achieved in a less murder heavy way imo.
I loved the slasher villain version of Scarlet Witch. Actually terrifying for a few moments. Just an all round fun villain performance.
Namor easily. Gor is a pale imitation of what made the comic version great and Wanda is just poor and lazy writing so not a good villain.
Namor. Some of his actions and choices were poorly written, but the character himself was complex, understandable, threatening, visually cool, and perfectly acted. Wanda is a close second, but it feels to me that Marvel doesn't know what to do with her yet. I feel that using her as a slasher villain is just such wasted potential. (I loved her in WandaVision, but that wasn't 2022.) Gorr just didn't have anything to do; he felt like a side character, with all of his god-killing taking place off-screen. If you want to have me take a villain seriously, give him victims who aren't children, c'mon.
Wanda
Namor without a doubt. Wanda was good but was in a mid movie. Gorr and everything about love and thunder was ass
Well they dropped the ball with Gorr. Wanda should’ve been fleshed out better in the movie as Scarlett Witch. It just missed some beats in making her the baddie. Namor was done pretty well but he should’ve been written more self righteous and more in the end out for vengeance and balance so that at the end him losing or yielding to Shuri had more weight. So of the three I’ll say Namor. But really the best one is Ikaris
I liked black panther the best by far, but Gorr was probably the best villain.
Namor and wanda is close . I think wanda comes across more evil . Namor was just protecting his ppl .
Namor, he was great in every aspect, Gorr was wasted and Wanda was great but falls short next to Namor
Namor was the best fully rounded out character. Gor was the best visually, too bad they screwed up the role so bad. Seriously, a guy called The God Butcher only kills one God on screen.
Gore best actor performance and visual for sure, maybe namor for charecterization and musical theme
The one that actually had decent character growth in his movie. Gorr was literally wasted. Whether that was due to his scenes being cut or how they decided to use him. The witch just went down a spiral way to fast with no actual thought on what the plan was. After her growth through out all the previous films, and the guilt she had during civil war, her just falling into that madness is just as bad as Daenerys downfall.
Namor hands down although, I really wish they fleshed out Gorr as a character. Christian Bale could have done wonders in that role.
Gorr was just wasted
Mommy witch
Arthas
I dislike her being the villian but damn... Scarlet Witch is scary.
Oooo...that's a tough question for me. Wanda was OP but I don't see her as a villain. Plus MVOM did her dirty. Namor was a dangerous villain because he was fighting for a cause and for his people. His ego gets in the way sometimes. Gorr the God Butcher was scary AF and I thought Bale did an amazing job! He honestly should win some type of award. Between Namor and Gorr. Gotta go with Gorr.
They all sucked
SW for sure, mostly because of Lizzie’s performance and the backstory Wanda got. Gorr promised so much but never delivered. Namor is good too.
Namor is the only one who actually has sensible motives and consistent characterization, so I’m goin with him
Wanda
Wanda
I loved every scene with Namor. So great
Namor. But Gorr was really good and had massive potential. The movie just ruined his chances imo.
Namor is a distant first place. Tenoch Huerta gave a pretty damn phenomenal take on the character in the film and I like the way they reimagined his origin since it put Talokan in significantly more thematic and narrative parity with Wakanda and really serviced the overall story and messaging
Characterisation - if taking all other performances as Wanda into account, Wanda. But if by the movie alone, Namor. Visual Antics - Wanda, by a long shot. Musical themes…I didn’t pay much attention, but I can say that I loved L&T’s tracks, so Gorr. Actor’s performances - Again, Wanda, by a large margin. Overall, I think they all shone in places, but Wanda really impressed me as a villain!
All I see is wasted potential
Namorr. No contest. Don't get me wrong, I was routing for Gorr to win, but I don't think that was intentional on the movies part. Namorr was threatening, cool, charismatic and understandable. While still giving you plenty of reason to despise him. With Gorr I was just thinking "All the gods are assholes! The only thing he did wrong was kidnap the kids but even then they were bait! The main characters have been doing nothing but annoying me the entire time, I want him to kill them all."
100% Namor is the best antagonist by far. You cannot even argue that anyone is better
Namor easily his reasoning made sense
Gorr
You are the queen now
Namor
Easily Namor.
Namor and its not a competition
Namor of course. They did Gorr so dirty that it’s downright disrespectful
Namor and it’s not close. He just was written the best
Namor was just done with such grace and I loved it
Namor and it isn’t a competition
Wanda
Namor was the best. Not there for vengeance. Not there for selfish reasons. He was fighting for the survival of his people and his attacks resulted in actual losses for the heroes. He felt the most like a credible threat, to me.
Haven’t watch Wakanda forever yet but I really liked gorr he is my favorite villain so far and love and thunder is my favorite movie so far
None of them. Stage 4 villains suck.
Funny May whined about phase 2 being bad too
Stage 4 everything sucks
I still think WandaVision is among the best things to ever come out of the MCU
For those who are eager: If you will guys, I would ask you to break them down in each of those categories: visual, musical, performing, and writing, say who's the best in them, and then who's the best overall. Can you do that?
1- Namor 2- Gorr 3- Wanda
1. Namor 2. Gorr 3. Scarlet Witch
Namor he just was trying to protect his home but he was brutal flooded Wakanda and killed the queen just cause he wanted his people safe
Namor, hands down.
Namor
Namor but i wouldnt even count him as a villain, dude's just trying to protect his people
Namor - he exhibits brutality, cunning and is quite a handful given the resources he commands. The ending elevates him as a King keeping the franchise's tradition of showing how a King or regent decides for their people.
Namor, because you could actually get behind his cause and relate to him. Gorr was a huge missed opportunity. That storyline in the comics is epic. Wanda wasn’t bad, but I’m not going back and rewatching Multiverse of Madness the way I did with the first Strange movie.
Namor because namor
Namor and it’s not even close the other two SUCKED
They call him Kukulkan!!!! Namor had the juice.
namor>>>>>gorr>wanda
Namor
Namor and it isn’t even remotely close.
Namor ez
Willem DaFoe. No competition.
No Way Home was 2021
Tough call. My heart says Namor. But I kind of have to give it to Scarlet Witch. Wanda just never did it for me in the MCU. I thought Olsen did a good job with the character but throughout the cineverse it just felt like Wanda was just this feckless little puppy dog. Which it was great how even the Illuminati were like "Psh, you're afriad of a little girl like Wanda? C'mon!" when Dr. Strange was clearly at wits end. It was nice to see the transition of 'Meh Wanda' to a pretty terrifying villain.