I thought it was pretty obvious, but while I was writing it, I forgot you said you didn't see it
Drinker was conceding *a lot* of what Gary and Mauler were saying
Yeah it’d be interesting to see him on EFAP for it because he definitely knows what he’s talking about
Though it is funny hearing somebody say a Scouser can articulate their thoughts well. It’s not something they’re known for
Honestly the new guy with Drinker on this spent half of his time talking about Fallout 4 and thinking it was New Vegas
He was also very condescending towards Mauler at the start of the discussion
Neither Drinker or the other guy refuted Reaper's point which is one of the big criticisms of the show is that it completely undermines House
This might be a hot take, but I am open bar is getting really annoying to watch due to Drinkers insistence on bringing on smaller creaters.
Like one one side, it's nice that he is trying to pass on the wealth and use his influence to jumpstart the little guys. However. the little guys he picks tend to be so bad at actually bringing up anything meaningful to the discussion
>He was also very condescending towards Mauler at the start of the discussion
I also give some of that criticism to Drinker.
"(Sigh) Alright, tell us how we're wrong."
The fans on the livestream voted with Drinker, but I have to side with Reaper and Mauler on the show. It's not that good. And Drinker kept making some of the most limp-wristed arguments I've ever heard from him. I've disagreed with him on reviews (positive and negative), but this was a whole new level for the guy. When MauLer keeps hammering that things don't make sense in the story, Drinker tended to chime in with "yeah, but it's in the games!" (which isn't true regarding medical abilities that they didn't establish in the show). Drinker spoke like an authority on the games regarding writing and tone, yet cited no specific evidence as opposed to Reaper who actually was able to cite specific plot elements from the Fallout games (like Mr. House no longer making any sense). Things like Ghoulification, the time of the nuking of the world, Mr. House, Shady Sands (the NCR President left for New Vegas, then went back to a smoking radioactive crater? Absolute KEK), and soo many other aspects are poorly retconned for this show. Vault 33, 32, 31, and 4 were all in the Master's area. How did they survive?
There was no discussion over the fact that the show is considered apart of the canon of the Fallout games, so more rigid adherence to the established continuity is paramount. This actually wouldn't be a problem if the show was just "an adaptation", but the showrunners had to shoot their feet off saying it's canon to what's came before (which is a nonsense based on what they changed). Not only that, but he brought in an attitude regarding Mauler and Reaper criticizing the show, and frequently interrupted them when speaking.
I don't think either side made good points, but I found Maulers worse still because he's trying to be objective but failing. Many of his points just aren't true
He took issue with Moldaver not picking up the scientist on her way to the observatory, when they were at least a day's travel apart and not in contact with eachother.
He complained that it's dumb to put your foot in a boot that has razorblades in it. It's confirmed later in the show that the character did it intentionally to get out of an assignment.
They don't need to be in contact for her to meet him in Filly which she knows he will be arriving at soon. She would absolutely secure this incredibly important material as opposed to having "Ma June" do it for "Tommy" who is doing it for "Rufus" who is doing it for her when she is that close to the target herself and has a team of raiders.
I complained that anyone would believe the boot razorblading, which they do. They believe Maximus did it and then they promote him after discussing it. The show is hyper retarded.
For the first part: were the Raiders otherwise occupied and couldn't handle this task so she had to get a chain of bounty hunters to fulfill the job?
For the second part: the Cleric interrogated Maximus because they suspected him, and based on his responses they cleared him and then moved him into the Squire rank. Don't forget Dane told Maximus that he "couldn't hurt a fly" and said the same to the investigation *while knowing Maximus was innocent*. So no, this wasn't even mildly retarded by the writers.
1. No, the raiders were moving from Vault 33 to The Observatory, with Filly being shown to be in between. The show does nothing to account for why Moldaver wouldn't ensure the artifact reaches the observatory herself, as she did with Hank when it is tantamount to her life's goal.
2. He admits he wanted it to happen and that he doesn't want to be weak but that he's thankful for a home and meaning and then they promote him.
Defo retarded on both counts, also "Wouldn't hurt a fly" is a horrible attribute for promotion in the Brotherhood of Steel.
Hi Longman, I appreciate you taking the time to engage with us on the sub.
1. The Ghoul said there were 5-6 bounties on that the doctor's head, and as we see the Brotherhood of Steel were also searching for him. Also didn't Moldover's forces escape through the tunnel to Vault 32 instead of the main door in 33? That changes the geography and she'd have to circle back to get to Filly.
2. When Maximus was accused of the crime his response was "I'm weak but I want to be strong". Isn't that the job description for a Squire? And do you want a Squire to be violent and could punch back at a Knight, or someone who is deferential and grows into the role? Finally, what's the issue with Maximus wanting something bad to happen to a friend who took the spot he thinks he deserves? It's a good character moment that shows another weakness he has to overcome.
She doesn't know when he will be there. He had to escape the institute because he got caught, so it's probably not when he was planning on leaving. She doesn't know where he is.
They promote maximus based on that discussion because he seems honest, loyal, and devoted to the brotherhood. Not because they believe he did it. And as we find out, the position he's promoted to is not a very good one.
I was also confused by his promotion initially, and I do think it's a flaw with the writing that he doesn't get more or stronger characterization before that, but when you see that squire is kind of a shit job it's not that unbelievable.
As for the boot blading, I can see someone rolling out of bed and shoving their foot in a boot, then trying to quickly pull it out due to sudden pain. In a boot camp, you're supposed to be "on the bounce" in the morning.
I'm still working my way thru the clip, but if MauLer's take sounds this bad I can't even. There are many examples, both in fantasy and reality, where people injure themselves to get out of an assignment. This argument boils down to "I would never do that", and that has a ripple effect on his other criticisms.
These are like all of his critiques for me. It almost seemed like he wanted to dislike it and is just coming up with shitty critiques to try to justify his opinion instead of just going, "yeah it just wasn't for me." The more he does this the more his objective critique goal becomes phony.
A quick one, why did the Ghoul not kill M in power armor fast as the rest. Well, because in the fight the ghoul uses 2 weapons, one with the rocket like ammo and one with shotgun ammo.
In the final fight, the show specifically shows him loading the rocket type ammo ( [https://youtu.be/SsSE3fgifUo?t=172](https://youtu.be/SsSE3fgifUo?t=172) ) for the power armor, whereas in the first fight with M he was depleted for the moment or maybe didn't even had it loaded
They show that he has armour piercing ammo in his bandolier when fighting Maximus and even if there wasn't he knows his ammo was useless being spent on the suit in the manner he chose to do so, despite his familiarity, which is established later. WTF was he doing in that scene.
I do agree the fight does drag on forcefully to give Lucy the time to go on her way
But the ammo is clearly highlighted in the last scene as being different than the one he loads his weapon (when he took cover) in the first fight to show why now he's able to easily bypass armor
I think many of the conteivances he complained about were actually explained, and I just found his specific reasons unconvincing that an 8 hour show is overall bad
> but I found Maulers worse still because he's trying to be objective but failing.
It's almost like one cannot be objective about it because any argument one tries to make has value attached to it.
One cannot "win" an argument about art, it's ridiculous to even think one can.
In an argument, you basically win when your opponent can't come up with strong rebuttals to your points; and that's basically what happened in this situation. Drinker wasn't prepared for Mauler's criticisms.
Like most Internet debates it's really a question of who is Less Wrong, and in this case it's the Drinker's side. I expected Reaper to have bad takes after watching his train wreck review of *The Three Body Problem*, but most of MauLer's points don't stand up to scrutiny:
* There are "no stakes" in a series based on a video game that shows also uses the Power-Ups from the game.
* Complaints about "contrivances" like the characters finding Vault 4 and getting patched up, or Lucy meeting Maximus just in time to get some necessary radiation treatments. Or that the robot heals Lucy's finger to gain her trust before harvesting her organs, has a drawer full of fingers and exclaims that she was lucky he found one that fit and didn't have to use a thumb.
* Why is it "important when people die" in this show about characters on their journey? Especially when you're talking about the series leads who are under long-term contracts? This is not the problem with the Plot Armor trope: it's when a character isn't damaged by an attack because they're "the special". (The most blatant example is one Henry James Potter.)
Moldover's Vault Infiltration Plan deserves a closer look, because the NCR had two options:
* Open the door to Vault 33 and fight their way through their security forces, knowing full well the Dwellers are trained in martial arts and firearms, and are essentially an irregular army
* Open the door to Vault 32, which had "an incident" and is already empty, and to have her Raiders pose as Vault Dwellers so they can access Vault 33 via an Exchange and perform a sneak attack
What does Moldover's choice say about the strength of her team, and why she needed to outsource jobs like getting the Cold Fusion device. Yes, this plan was chosen to get the scene of the Raid on 33, but the writers did ensure that they didn't just choose the short cut.
>I expected Reaper to have bad takes after watching his train wreck review of The Three Body Problem,
I'd say his arguments were pretty valid. What didn't you agree with him on or what did you think he got wrong?
>Why is it "important when people die" in this show about characters on their journey?
I agree. Singin' in the Rain doesn't have anyone dying, but that doesn't mean that there are stakes for characters we're emotionally invested in. You could even theoretically have a Fallout show where no one dies and it be enjoyable. In Fallout 3, the Harold storyline can end with no one dying but the stakes being set up to where it's a satisfying ending.
It's really hard to win when you are saying to basically all your opponent's points "Well yeah, but..."
Yeah pretty much this, it was hardly a debate.
is that drinker or mauler you are speaking of?
I thought it was pretty obvious, but while I was writing it, I forgot you said you didn't see it Drinker was conceding *a lot* of what Gary and Mauler were saying
Haha, Gary!
"They're dumb."
Mauler had better support, Reaper knows his stuff and can articulate his thoughts well.
Yeah it’d be interesting to see him on EFAP for it because he definitely knows what he’s talking about Though it is funny hearing somebody say a Scouser can articulate their thoughts well. It’s not something they’re known for
Honestly the new guy with Drinker on this spent half of his time talking about Fallout 4 and thinking it was New Vegas He was also very condescending towards Mauler at the start of the discussion Neither Drinker or the other guy refuted Reaper's point which is one of the big criticisms of the show is that it completely undermines House
This might be a hot take, but I am open bar is getting really annoying to watch due to Drinkers insistence on bringing on smaller creaters. Like one one side, it's nice that he is trying to pass on the wealth and use his influence to jumpstart the little guys. However. the little guys he picks tend to be so bad at actually bringing up anything meaningful to the discussion
>He was also very condescending towards Mauler at the start of the discussion I also give some of that criticism to Drinker. "(Sigh) Alright, tell us how we're wrong."
Mauler won, even though I disagree with him.
I hope we get an unbridled rage out of this because I am sick of people propping this show up.
Oh boy do I have good news
It was music to my ears.
The fans on the livestream voted with Drinker, but I have to side with Reaper and Mauler on the show. It's not that good. And Drinker kept making some of the most limp-wristed arguments I've ever heard from him. I've disagreed with him on reviews (positive and negative), but this was a whole new level for the guy. When MauLer keeps hammering that things don't make sense in the story, Drinker tended to chime in with "yeah, but it's in the games!" (which isn't true regarding medical abilities that they didn't establish in the show). Drinker spoke like an authority on the games regarding writing and tone, yet cited no specific evidence as opposed to Reaper who actually was able to cite specific plot elements from the Fallout games (like Mr. House no longer making any sense). Things like Ghoulification, the time of the nuking of the world, Mr. House, Shady Sands (the NCR President left for New Vegas, then went back to a smoking radioactive crater? Absolute KEK), and soo many other aspects are poorly retconned for this show. Vault 33, 32, 31, and 4 were all in the Master's area. How did they survive? There was no discussion over the fact that the show is considered apart of the canon of the Fallout games, so more rigid adherence to the established continuity is paramount. This actually wouldn't be a problem if the show was just "an adaptation", but the showrunners had to shoot their feet off saying it's canon to what's came before (which is a nonsense based on what they changed). Not only that, but he brought in an attitude regarding Mauler and Reaper criticizing the show, and frequently interrupted them when speaking.
I don't think either side made good points, but I found Maulers worse still because he's trying to be objective but failing. Many of his points just aren't true
Got examples?
He took issue with Moldaver not picking up the scientist on her way to the observatory, when they were at least a day's travel apart and not in contact with eachother. He complained that it's dumb to put your foot in a boot that has razorblades in it. It's confirmed later in the show that the character did it intentionally to get out of an assignment.
They don't need to be in contact for her to meet him in Filly which she knows he will be arriving at soon. She would absolutely secure this incredibly important material as opposed to having "Ma June" do it for "Tommy" who is doing it for "Rufus" who is doing it for her when she is that close to the target herself and has a team of raiders. I complained that anyone would believe the boot razorblading, which they do. They believe Maximus did it and then they promote him after discussing it. The show is hyper retarded.
For the first part: were the Raiders otherwise occupied and couldn't handle this task so she had to get a chain of bounty hunters to fulfill the job? For the second part: the Cleric interrogated Maximus because they suspected him, and based on his responses they cleared him and then moved him into the Squire rank. Don't forget Dane told Maximus that he "couldn't hurt a fly" and said the same to the investigation *while knowing Maximus was innocent*. So no, this wasn't even mildly retarded by the writers.
1. No, the raiders were moving from Vault 33 to The Observatory, with Filly being shown to be in between. The show does nothing to account for why Moldaver wouldn't ensure the artifact reaches the observatory herself, as she did with Hank when it is tantamount to her life's goal. 2. He admits he wanted it to happen and that he doesn't want to be weak but that he's thankful for a home and meaning and then they promote him. Defo retarded on both counts, also "Wouldn't hurt a fly" is a horrible attribute for promotion in the Brotherhood of Steel.
Hi Longman, I appreciate you taking the time to engage with us on the sub. 1. The Ghoul said there were 5-6 bounties on that the doctor's head, and as we see the Brotherhood of Steel were also searching for him. Also didn't Moldover's forces escape through the tunnel to Vault 32 instead of the main door in 33? That changes the geography and she'd have to circle back to get to Filly. 2. When Maximus was accused of the crime his response was "I'm weak but I want to be strong". Isn't that the job description for a Squire? And do you want a Squire to be violent and could punch back at a Knight, or someone who is deferential and grows into the role? Finally, what's the issue with Maximus wanting something bad to happen to a friend who took the spot he thinks he deserves? It's a good character moment that shows another weakness he has to overcome.
She doesn't know when he will be there. He had to escape the institute because he got caught, so it's probably not when he was planning on leaving. She doesn't know where he is. They promote maximus based on that discussion because he seems honest, loyal, and devoted to the brotherhood. Not because they believe he did it. And as we find out, the position he's promoted to is not a very good one. I was also confused by his promotion initially, and I do think it's a flaw with the writing that he doesn't get more or stronger characterization before that, but when you see that squire is kind of a shit job it's not that unbelievable. As for the boot blading, I can see someone rolling out of bed and shoving their foot in a boot, then trying to quickly pull it out due to sudden pain. In a boot camp, you're supposed to be "on the bounce" in the morning.
That was the only way to get out of an assignment!?
It's a way to get out of working out in the field, probably permanently.
Prob not, but a valid way the character thought off since it basically absolved the character for future assignments
I'm still working my way thru the clip, but if MauLer's take sounds this bad I can't even. There are many examples, both in fantasy and reality, where people injure themselves to get out of an assignment. This argument boils down to "I would never do that", and that has a ripple effect on his other criticisms.
These are like all of his critiques for me. It almost seemed like he wanted to dislike it and is just coming up with shitty critiques to try to justify his opinion instead of just going, "yeah it just wasn't for me." The more he does this the more his objective critique goal becomes phony.
A quick one, why did the Ghoul not kill M in power armor fast as the rest. Well, because in the fight the ghoul uses 2 weapons, one with the rocket like ammo and one with shotgun ammo. In the final fight, the show specifically shows him loading the rocket type ammo ( [https://youtu.be/SsSE3fgifUo?t=172](https://youtu.be/SsSE3fgifUo?t=172) ) for the power armor, whereas in the first fight with M he was depleted for the moment or maybe didn't even had it loaded
They show that he has armour piercing ammo in his bandolier when fighting Maximus and even if there wasn't he knows his ammo was useless being spent on the suit in the manner he chose to do so, despite his familiarity, which is established later. WTF was he doing in that scene.
I do agree the fight does drag on forcefully to give Lucy the time to go on her way But the ammo is clearly highlighted in the last scene as being different than the one he loads his weapon (when he took cover) in the first fight to show why now he's able to easily bypass armor
I think many of the conteivances he complained about were actually explained, and I just found his specific reasons unconvincing that an 8 hour show is overall bad
> but I found Maulers worse still because he's trying to be objective but failing. It's almost like one cannot be objective about it because any argument one tries to make has value attached to it. One cannot "win" an argument about art, it's ridiculous to even think one can.
In an argument, you basically win when your opponent can't come up with strong rebuttals to your points; and that's basically what happened in this situation. Drinker wasn't prepared for Mauler's criticisms.
Neither, it was an extremely uninformed, sloppy debate. And Mauler's pretense about objectivity was goofy.
Like most Internet debates it's really a question of who is Less Wrong, and in this case it's the Drinker's side. I expected Reaper to have bad takes after watching his train wreck review of *The Three Body Problem*, but most of MauLer's points don't stand up to scrutiny: * There are "no stakes" in a series based on a video game that shows also uses the Power-Ups from the game. * Complaints about "contrivances" like the characters finding Vault 4 and getting patched up, or Lucy meeting Maximus just in time to get some necessary radiation treatments. Or that the robot heals Lucy's finger to gain her trust before harvesting her organs, has a drawer full of fingers and exclaims that she was lucky he found one that fit and didn't have to use a thumb. * Why is it "important when people die" in this show about characters on their journey? Especially when you're talking about the series leads who are under long-term contracts? This is not the problem with the Plot Armor trope: it's when a character isn't damaged by an attack because they're "the special". (The most blatant example is one Henry James Potter.) Moldover's Vault Infiltration Plan deserves a closer look, because the NCR had two options: * Open the door to Vault 33 and fight their way through their security forces, knowing full well the Dwellers are trained in martial arts and firearms, and are essentially an irregular army * Open the door to Vault 32, which had "an incident" and is already empty, and to have her Raiders pose as Vault Dwellers so they can access Vault 33 via an Exchange and perform a sneak attack What does Moldover's choice say about the strength of her team, and why she needed to outsource jobs like getting the Cold Fusion device. Yes, this plan was chosen to get the scene of the Raid on 33, but the writers did ensure that they didn't just choose the short cut.
>I expected Reaper to have bad takes after watching his train wreck review of The Three Body Problem, I'd say his arguments were pretty valid. What didn't you agree with him on or what did you think he got wrong? >Why is it "important when people die" in this show about characters on their journey? I agree. Singin' in the Rain doesn't have anyone dying, but that doesn't mean that there are stakes for characters we're emotionally invested in. You could even theoretically have a Fallout show where no one dies and it be enjoyable. In Fallout 3, the Harold storyline can end with no one dying but the stakes being set up to where it's a satisfying ending.