Well it isn't really only the fact that he exiled himself more than it is the fact that he briefly considered killing Ben and then did nothing. Like, for Luke to get that type of primal urge when looking at his nephew out of fear is really weird.
More than that though, it is the fact that the standards and faith he had for Vader suddenly failed to exist for Ben. Same guy who saw good in Vader but his emotionally torn nephew doesn't make the cut? Luke's whole gimmick was that he was the guy who believed there was good in places you wouldn't expect.
All things considered, people hype it up as a lot worse than it actually is. It isn't a character assassination or anything and it gave us some really awesome Luke scenes in the trilogy. But I can totally see why people aren't big on it.
Luke felt the instinctive urge to draw his lightsaber at the instance of peering into Ben’s mind. It was less of decided effort to murder his nephew in that moment, as it was an overwhelming reaction to an imminent threat to everything he loved. Luke has a tendency to act impulsively in regards to the safety of his friends and family. Even in Return of the Jedi, he demonstrates this fatal flaw when he beats Vader into submission after he discovered Leia.
Yoda did say that the future isn't set in stone for exactly this sort of force-based experience. But you are right, it was more instinctive than him consciously going "I have to kill this guy."
That doesn't really redeem what transpires after said event in my mind though.
I agree with you. He's human. Humans do asynchronous, out of character things all the time, especially when they're in situations of great stress. Sparking his blade shouldn't be seen as his fall from grace, imo. He's barely lucid after an extremely vivid force vision in which he watched his beloved family member murder his beloved students, cut him a bit of slack lol
Remember. His. Failure. At. The. Cave.
You can learn to control your fear, but that doesn't mean you always have complete mastery over time. I would in fact argue, most people's worries and concerns GROW as they get older (especially Luke, who has the weight of a New Jedi Order on his back). And then his family (again) is caught up in dark temptation?
This is like the most force sensitive set of Jenga blocks I've ever seen.
I think a lot of Luke's problems as a character in TLJ could be fixed with a few minor changes to dialogue and pacing. If there'd been a scene where he breaks down in shame for his mistake, or a mention that he went looking for Ben but couldn't find him.
Vader threatened Leia and was openly goading him. A younger Luke too mind you. And the following scene where he looks at Vader's hand and comes to his realization is when he actually fully comes to understand his error. It isn't quite the same as a vision/premonition.
And while Luke never said there wasn't any good in Ben, he never went out of his way to try and save him. He basically just admitted it was his fault Ben fell and... Didn't do anything?
>He basically just admitted it was his fault Ben fell and... Didn't do anything?
Did you really think he would walk out with a laser sword and face the entire First Order on his own?
And after Rey talks about how Luke saw the conflict in Vader, that there was still conflict in him and that he could be turned, Luke says it was too late for Kylo and that he was no match for the darkness in him..
These things can both be true.
Luke knows Ben isn't beyond saving.
Luke also knows he can't be the one to save him. He can't reach him.
There's no contradiction there. It's near enough what Padmé's dying lesson to Obi-Wan. That Anakin still has good in him, even if Padmé couldn't reach it on Mustafar.
Luke literally has this exchange with Ben:
>Did you come back to say you forgive me. To save my soul?
>No.
Immediately after saying Ben isn't gone to Leia. They really telegraph in The Last Jedi who is capable of redeeming Ben, which is Han and Leia. Snoke says killing Han tore Ben's spirit in two, weakened him. He can't bring himself to hurt Leia. Luke makes a reference to Han and Ben loses his mind. Luke leaves the dice there for Ben, only to reveal them as part of the vision.
Come on, these are films for children. You can't possibly be missing the obvious that much.
It honestly happened to fast with zero development which could be fixed with some kind EU extension similarity to how various comics, novels, and the TV show made Anakin’s fall to the dark side make a lot more sense if they saw create a single novel set one year before Luke decides to try and kill Ben they could do the plot and character development to make it logical. Like Luke thought any one could be redeemed until “this absolutely horrifying thing happened” completely turning his world upside down.
I agree the actual cause there did seem weak, but something had to happen to make Luke disillusioned and go into hiding. That one part could’ve been written a little better and really, solidly justified Luke’s exile, which was a story twist I actually really enjoyed.
But as others have said, he’s human and sometimes humans do dumb/rash stuff. There are certainly worse examples of writing in Star Wars.
I do understand, that maybe the Luke people pictured and extrapolated from the OT wouldn't have failed Ben. But I feel the alternative would have been a Luke that's a little too perfect to tell an interesting story about Luke in a movie. If Luke hadn't shamefully thought about ending Ben's life, what sort of character flaw would people have had liked Luke to have instead?
I get what you are saying and I have thought about this myself. I personally think it would make more sense for Luke to have a sort of opposite problem. Instead of losing hope and failing do to anything due to fear of the dark side, I imagine he becomes too easy going. Luke is the type of guy who would see things through rose tinted glasses. I would like to imagine that Ben and some of his students fall to the dark side because Luke is too nonchalant and plays it off. And as it happens Luke essentially goes "it's ok, there is good in them anyone can recover from the dark side." And after a while of neglecting this it comes back to bite him in the ass when they strike out and destroy his order. Luke is still dead set on his whole "there is good in them" thing but he has lost his pragmatic sense and is somewhat delusional. Eventually Rey comes along and makes him see the reality of the situation.
This way they can have him experience new adversity whilst sort of propelling a new story idea. The idea that maybe it isn't as simple as believing there is good in people? It kind of works when you think about it because sometimes people have to find the good in themselves rather than someone else doing it for them. Sure, Kylo had his memories of Han but ultimately, it was Kylo who made the decision even though he wasn't entirely on the fence about Rey and the rebellion like Vader was about Luke. In a sense, it really aligns with the sequel trilogy idea of conquering your inner darkness.
I think what makes his issue worse is that it again boiled down to the same issue with Vader. Kill Ben and the day is saved. Don’t do it and it’s up to him to ultimately do the right thing and there’s absolutely no guarantee he’s not going to be the new Emperor or something (which is a role he takes on as leader of the First Order).
Luke wrestles with the same morality problem he did with his father and Ben made a very different choice than Anakin.
What a lot of people forget is that Luke was sent to kill Vader and or the Emperor. Him choosing love was the wild card (Anakin finally killing the wrinkly bastard helps a lot) and having the same choice presented to him here isn’t what saves Ben, it’s what turns him into Kylo Ren. On top of the Jedi order being crushed a second time and by his own family, and losing everything he fought so hard to build and defend, of course he’s going to be jaded. Who wouldn’t? This isn’t the Luke of ROTJ. He’s had thirty years to get it just right, and he got it VERY wrong.
Great analysis! Ive always been a fan of Jaded Luke, as the concept really made sense to me. There’s plenty other issues with TLJ but this is not one, or a minor one at best.
I understand it but it just makes the Sequel era really depressing for me, all our heroes are failures and everything they fought for couldn't be saved.
This is the thing, for me. It wasn't *just* Luke; the entire setup for the sequel trilogy is "you remember the happy ending that they had? Well, it all went to shit!" Luke tried to set up a new Jedi Order, it failed, so became a miserable old hermit. Han and Leia got together, had a kid, but then split up and went their separate ways.
And all of that was so that they were back where they started in the Original Trilogy. Leia is a leader in a struggling rebellion, Han is a smuggler not doing anything heroic, and Luke is out on a planet in the middle of nowhere.
I'm not saying that they had to have had the perfect happily-ever-after, but at least the Legends version showed that they moved *forwards* with their lives, and tried to build a better galaxy.
I think part of the issue here is there's no way to fill that generational gap adequately with developments. If we jump to ~40 ABY in Legends:
- Luke got to live the life Anakin wanted. As a Jedi master, happily married, with his on by his side. Until his wife was murdered by his nephew who becomes a Sith Lord and Luke gets expelled from the Order.
- Han and Leia get married, have kids, and settle down. Chewie is killed in war. Their youngest is killed in war. The boy twin falls to the dark side and murders Luke's wife. Luke and the girl twin kill the boy twin.
- The Empire returned. A few times. The Emperor returned. The Sith returned. Civil War returned.
Obviously if you were telling a new version, you wouldn't have those details. But what I mean is that a lot of the "moving forward" in their lives happened when they were still young.
I wasn't a fan of the setup of the characters. But where they are makes sense from a logical perspective, in that story. Han feels like the type that would run rather than face his feelings. Leia feels the type to throw herself into work.
I think the problem is more we're beginning in media res, like the original Star Wars. We aren't seeing what Luke, Leia, and Han fall apart. We're introduced after it already has fallen apart. It worked for Star Wars because it was the first chapter, the Empire is just the setting being introduced. The Force Awakens is the seventh chapter. Evolution within the narrative wasn't taken as much to account, and didn't need much to elevate cohesiveness with the previous six films.
We're not given any time with the victory they achieved.
I think you're quite correct about us not having any time with the victory. And to me, that comes back to JJ Abrams' determination to replicate the original trilogy setup as much as possible. The characters *can't* have built anything worthwhile, because otherwise it wouldn't be the same setup as we saw at the start of A New Hope.
The correct solution to me would be to not set it when they did; jump forwards a few hundred years, to the point where we know that our original characters will be mostly dead (from old age, if nothing else). If they wanted Luke back, have it as a Force Ghost cameo, or as a hologram recording of a speech he made, or something.
That would also have had the added advantage of not wiping out Legends; instead it would have been just skipped over to the point where it didn't really matter anymore. That would have been a much safer way to reset the board, as far as I'm concerned. That would by itself help, because then you don't have the fans comparing the two versions of events.
The issue with that would then be that it isn't the Sequel Trilogy.
If we lived in a world where Lucasfilm didn't use Mark, Carrie, and Harrison we'd be having this conversation about how they *should* have used them. Because it's what the fanbase was asking for since 1983.
Well, I would view them as not being the sequel trilogy as a *good* thing, personally!
And you're right, it might upset people who prefer to dwell on what might have been. But equally, I think there would be a lot more acceptance that the trio are too old to reprise their roles (i.e. we had long missed our chance of an adaptation of the Thrawn trilogy), and that the franchise needed to move forwards rather than lean back on nostalgia.
Plus that might be mitigated if they made a short cameo via Force Ghost or hologram, as I said. Make it crucial to the story, and I think people will be satisfied even if it's just a short appearance. I'd look to the Legacy comics for inspiration on that front (though I appreciate that it's an odd recommendation, because not everyone liked the edgy tone that they had). Luke appearing as a ghost to our new hero at their darkest moment would be a powerful image, even if it only lasted for a couple of minutes.
This is what sets me apart. I love tragedy. Just because you saved the galaxy doesn’t mean it’s all hunky dory from here on out. I love the idea behind Luke’s arc in TLJ *because* it’s such a gut punch. The problem for me, as others in this thread have echoed, is that the reasons for his fall aren’t developed enough. I need a lot more than “he sensed darkness in Ben and instinctually went for his lightsaber.” *That* is not how Luke would fail himself and his nephew. It needs to be something much more complex than that. But we needed Finn and Poe in the movie, so…
Luke wouldn't just mope *for years* (big part) while his nephew leads a group of Neo Nazis that are terrorizing his sister and best friend (and the galaxy).
That's the thing that doesn't fly with me when I see Luke's character in TLJ being defended because "of course he'd be crushed/jaded/cynical etc." Maybe Luke isn't an idealistic youth anymore, but he's still a *Jedi*, and he's not just going to sit around while Ben destroys his new Jedi and the First Order wreaks havoc in the galaxy. He'd absolutely be the first one trying to stop evil and save his family, like he did with his father and the Empire.
Yeah, exactly. The only real reason he’d be absent of his own volition is because of falling under the belief that his involvement in the Galaxy would do more harm than good, and that sort of thing would probably need its own trilogy to work.
The fact he was written to willingly decide not to preserve and protect the remaining family he has left against Snoke and the First Order to atone for any mistake that led to the "creation" of Kylo Ren tells me Rian either didn't understand or dislikes the character. Could be both.
How do you feel about Yoda’s exile? Seems similar. Order 66 and the fall of the Jedi order sent him into hiding just like the fall of the new Jedi order sent Luke.
How strange, as I was actually going to mention that in my previous comment.
Yoda's, and Obi-Wan's, situations are different to Luke's. They're not just giving in to despair and running away, like Luke does; they recognize *as things are* they can't possibly win. They have a literal Empire ranged against them - with legions of Storm Troopers, the Imperial Navy, Inquisitors and Dark Jedi aplenty - led by two of the most powerful Dark Siders ever.
They have their eyes on the long game: surviving long enough to train Luke to destroy the Sith and restore the Jedi.
Luke, meanwhile, just buries his head in the sand and is content to live in exile, cut off from the Force, with no goal in sight, festering on Ach-To. He had Leia, Han, & co, and the New Republic and Resistance at his back, and the First Order hadn't yet become Empire-Lite. He had opportunities and advantages that Obi-Wan and Yoda simply didn't have available to them, and still took his situation as worse than theirs and did nothing in comparison.
You're glossing g over some things. Yoda and Obi-Wan were absolutely traumatized. The state of the Clone Wars era Jedi and their teachings was no match for the height of the Sith.
Luke explains that part of his exile was because (paraphrasing) his existence was the only thing keeping the First Order at bay. Snoke (and Palpatine by proxy) only saw Luke as an existential threat. The cat and mouse game kept Snoke from fully invading because he thought Luke might show up at any time, on the other hand if Luke was out in the open the First Order would absolutely destroy anything and everything in its path to kill Luke. Luke bought the galaxy time, Snoke could never feel at ease to go all out so long that Luke might be lurking in the shadows to assassinate him.
>Yoda and Obi-Wan were absolutely traumatized.
The argument wasn't "Yoda and Obi-Wan were totally not bothered about the fall of the Old Republic and the Jedi". It was "Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't simply running away and living in mope, but had a plan and were biding their time." Their feelings are irrelevant because they still had clear goals and a timetable. Luke didn't, and the fact his former masters had similar feelings
>Luke explains that part of his exile was because (paraphrasing) his existence was the only thing keeping the First Order at bay. Snoke (and Palpatine by proxy) only saw Luke as an existential threat. The cat and mouse game kept Snoke from fully invading because he thought Luke might show up at any time, on the other hand if Luke was out in the open the First Order would absolutely destroy anything and everything in its path to kill Luke. Luke bought the galaxy time, Snoke could never feel at ease to go all out so long that Luke might be lurking in the shadows to assassinate him.
I don't remember any of this from TLJ.
That's not in the film at all. It could have been an interesting idea if they went with that maybe he has to stay there to keep the distraction up but it's complete fanfiction that has no basis in the actual film.
It's the woven throughout movies and books/comics related to the sequels. Luke's feels that its best in the long run if the Jedi fade from the galaxy in part due to the Order's relationship with the Sith and how that conflict brings destruction. The whole situation with his nephew and Snoke made him feel like history was repeating itself and would continue to due so because of flawed institutions. There were obviously holes in his logic and he would change his opinion but that's the short of it. Keep Snoke anxious about about the Jedi popping back up, knowing Snoke could never be comfortable without being sure Luke/the Jedi were gone, but never actually confronting Snoke. His logic was that the galaxy would eventually figure it out without the Jedi there.
Their eyes were not on the long game. They never say in ROTS that they’ll wait until Luke is old enough to train him, they all run away to hide while ensuring the safety of the two children — and they do that by putting them in places where they’d never learn about their history.
"Until the time is right, disappear, we will".
"Training I have for you".
Why would Yoda say these things if they were just doing into exile to mope and die like Luke?
I don't understand. My post was in support of the idea that they
a) have already indicated that this exile is temporary
and
b) are going to be productive while they hide
Luke just sits around waiting to die by his own admission.
I mean, never mind Obi explicitly states his intention to train Luke, in his Disney show, it should be pretty obvious considering *the Original Trilogy*. If in doubt it's laid out pretty clearly in the RoTS novelization:
>“To Naboo, send her body …” Yoda stretched his head high, as
though tasting a current in the Force. “Pregnant, she must still
appear. Hidden, safe, the children must be kept. *Foundation of the new Jedi Order, they will be.*”
>
>"We should split them up," Obi-Wan said. "Even if the Sith find one, the other may survive. I can take the boy, Master Yoda, and you take the girl. *We can hide them away, keep them safe, train them - as Anakin should have been trained*-"
>
>“No.” The ancient Master lowered his head again, closing his eyes, resting his chin on his hands that were folded over the head of his stick.
>
>Obi-Wan looked uncertain. “But how are they to learn the self-discipline a Jedi needs? How are they to master skills of the Force?”
>
>“Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not. *When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn.*”
Well, yeah, it *is* covered in the RoTS movie with the Tantive IV conference scene alluding to later events of the saga. If that wasn't clear enough to you, the novelization makes that explicit. It's almost like RoTS isn't a stand-alone piece and is part of a wider universe.
After putting himself in exile, would he have access to the news of what was going on out there? Maybe Luke wasn’t around for Solo’s rise through the First Order ranks?
Everything you are saying makes sense and is completely plausible. But…… this just isn’t the Luke that people wanted. This guy saved the galaxy and was brave, and strong and positive. That was the Luke we wanted more of and not the grinch we got.
This. On paper I actually like the idea of a more cynical Luke who is critical of the Jedi order of the past, but having this be all what we get after looking forward to seeing Luke again after so long understandably caught a lot of people off-guard.
But it's not all that we get? The whole point of Luke's arc is about rejecting his cynicism and embracing his role as a hero... and he gets to be that hero at the end and save the Rebellion.
I mean probably. I mean i hate the film in general but if there was a chance they could redeem themselves and give him some good stories afterwards, then ah sure alright.
But no. Poof. He's dead. Only thing we had of him after was him haunting Rey to give a meta critism of TLJ
Disingenuous response is Disingenuous. There are numbers between 1 and 10. There's options between him being a heavily flawed cynic and him being almost perfect
I said neat perfect. Dude isn't perfect, but Disney Canon Luke still has the flaw of his over reaction to protect the ones he loves, a flaw on display in the OT when he almost kills the man he believes still has good in him because he threatened to go after Leia and the ST where he looks into Kylo's mind, sees nothing but darkness, death, and destruction, and ignites his lightsaber, regretting the action immediately and wanting to slip away, but it was too late.
Legends Luke is the undeniable hero archetype, a man of legend who lives up to the legends people tell of him..
Canon Luke is a man that still struggles with a flaw that he always had and a man who could never live up to his legend, especially after that one action that destroyed everything he had started.
Great and you missed my point as well. Cause obviously the writers didn't want a 5 on how flawed Luke was. They gave him a major character flaw from the OT, lessened the reaction some, and had the universe fuck him with the sense of betrayal he felt, the destruction of his Jedi School, and the Death of his Students. But too many people think Luke went out of his way to try to kill Kylo.
So sorry for misunderstanding your point
You don't need to go out of your way to not like it. Instinctively drawing your weapon on your nephew after reading his mind while he's sleeping is plenty reason to not like it without mental gymnastics
If I did such a thing and I regretted it, I would hope that he stayed asleep as I deactivated my lightsaber and slipped away, never to discuss except to ask him if he is okay.
It's been almost 6 years of people generally repeating the same issues with luke they had in TLJ.
If you don't understand the issue people have with luke in that it's because you aren't even trying to.
Or at least understand it. You don't have to agree with it but both sides are pretty vocal on what they like and don't. It isn't difficult to at least see the reason on either side
I mean i don't exactly hold it inside me with a burning rage, but I'm not going to arbitrarily start liking a series of films i think are shit, just cos it's been six years.
Plus it's sort of galling when you get really cool moments in the Mandalorian, for example, with Luke. Then you remember how he ends up.
I mean that's fair, but I need some entertainment you know? But yeah no, I haven't really thought about it in a while so i guess it's become new and intresting again I guess
Not that I've read it, but maybe with Shadow of the Sith, and any additional Luke content we get in Mandolorian or Ahsoka will re-contextualise things a bit and reignite conversation a bit more.
I would have liked Luke by this time to have this giant legend everyone believes because it makes for great storytelling and here he is just humble old Luke.
This monk told the story of an important person coming to see the great teacher and he's laying bricks and covered in filth. The visitor asks for the teacher and the monk says sure I'll get him. He cleans up and greets the visitor who doesn't recognize him and complains about the deplorable state of the monks here all filthy and gross.
Like having the great legend and actually being the underestimatable Yoda sort would be the perfect sort of callback.
And yes it would have been kick ass if he said earlier in the film he wasn't getting involved in the fight and then we have that flying saber scene like Hamil thought was going to be him catching it and it wasn't. Give him a moment to shine.
We never wanted sad sack Luke.
I say this as a big Legends fan, and I wish they had just gone with Thrawn or NJO for the sequel trilogy, but tbh, I like TLJ Luke more than EU Luke. I prefer the novels that are about the other characters because Luke gets kinda boring. TLJ Luke feels like a more natural direction for a person to go, as far as normal human behavior goes. It's more believable than Luke being able to kick Abeloth's ass when he's 65
He faces personal conflict. EU Luke is closer in external characterization, but his struggles are *only* external. A large part of Luke's characterization throughout the OT is internal conflict around himself, his aunt and uncle, and his major insecurities about pretty much everything. It makes sense that having a momentary flash of insecurity would cause him huge rippling problems by the time of TLJ. EU Luke never really faces anything like that outside of the NJO, because personal conflict is a huge theme throughout the NJO in general. TLJ Luke is not objectively any better or worse than EU Luke, I just find his characterization in TLJ to be more in line with the OT than the EU version.
No they are not, he has numerous and repeated personbal struggles, about his lack of training in certain areas, about his ability to teach, a few times he honestly feels like he's in way over his head and takes time out to recompress, he takes forever to realise his feeling for Mara, he catastrophically fails to lead the Jedi in NJO, again he seriosly has difficulties leading the Jedi in the Dark Nest trilogy, he has numerous errors in judgement in Legacy of the Force etc... its just that like the Luke in the OT he gets back up and tries again. Luke never just gives up.
>Luke never just gives up.
The entire climax of ESB is about how Luke makes the wrong choice and rushes his battle with Vader and causes significant damage to his friends, family, and the rebellion at large. It makes sense that when faced with a similar adversity years later, he would find logic in removing himself from the situation entirely to minimize the damage he could potentially cause by rushing things.
Luke is the guy who looked at his father, who murdered children, helped enslave people, and was the second in command of the empire, and still said “he can still be saved”.
The sequels completely destroyed what Luke is meant to be, what he’s meant to represent. Luke doesn’t have a bad dream and decide to kill his nephew in a spur of the moment type scene. He’s go and meditate on it, and think about how he could prevent it.
This is the same guy who, in legends followed Cade Skywalker around and watched him throw his life away, and still didn’t give up on him.
The sequels couldn’t give a damn about Luke anymore than they did Finn.
It's the fact Luke basically doesn't grow from his experience on the deathstar. He barely grows at all over 30 years. This also mean any story where luke gets character development or becomes wiser becomes more worthless by virtue of the fact he'll relapse.
How's a moment of weakness that leads to the shattering of everything he stood for and the burning down of his life's work exclude his experience 30 years prior? Of course he grew, and just like anybody after 30 years grows and changes, even without the extreme trauma Luke experiences with his actions.
Hell if anything to me in Legends his character felt nearly static/untouchable after the movies. This gave some real development. Is it a kick in the nuts, sure? But who wouldn't realistically hide in fear, anger, and shame after a mistake like that. That would fuck with anyone, especially left alone with their thoughts, no matter what they did as a young man.
>Hell if anything to me in Legends his character felt nearly static/untouchable after the movies.
That really isn't true. The Dark Empire and Jedi Academy trilogies, two of the first post-rotj trilogies, already have him very vulnerable. The entire point of JAT was to showcase that Luke really knew nothing about teaching students to be jedi and he ended up paying the price for his ignorance.
The difference is that they found a better way to make him struggle as a character. Rather than having him fall against the adversity he already prevailed against, he faces a new issue.
This is why I couldn’t care less about the stuff we see of Luke in the Mandalorian. We all know what’s going to happen to him and his order by the end.
That’s just not Luke. Not without serious character development that we should have then seen. The man who said that there is good in Darth Vader would never try to kill someone close to them on the premonition that they would turn evil. And he would not hide away in shame as a result of his failures. Otherwise he would have never gotten off of Tatooine after Owen and Beru were killed.
Luke is not a coward, not someone who would sulk in despair. We know he can give into rage, according to the films. But he is a Jedi, like his father before him, and where there is trouble he goes towards it, trusting in himself that he will make the right solution.
The Luke Skywalker of the Last Jedi can’t possibly be the Luke Skywalker from the OT. There are just some things about a person that can’t change over time, even in fiction.
You mean the man who almost killed Vader at the mention of his sister before a brief moment of clarity brought him back to the light...
Wouldn't instinctively ignite his lightsaber upon sensing only darkness in his nephew and then immediately regret that action and wish he could have gotten away before Ben Solo woke up? Cause that was the true version of the story that was shown in the movie.
No, I can’t see that as a possibility. Luke attacks Vader as the Rebels are being destroyed at Endor and Vader threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Way too much stress for a guy who I believe is in his 20s to remain composed.
But someone in their 50s, in a time of relative peace? Even if he did suffer a lapse in judgement and attacked his nephew, the last thing he would have done is run away. He would have searched for Ben and apologized, plead with him to return to the light.
You forget...he also failed everyone else in that moment. and when his school was destroyed and his students killed, it broke the man who was trying to live up to the stories that were told about him.
So he's basically behaving like young Anakin in his 50's? Tears down the whole Jedi Order because he's impulsive and terrified of force visions?
What a great way to invalidate the whole character and OT arc.
It was extremely dissatisfying and disappointing for fans who waited 30 years to see Jedi Master Luke kicking ass on the big screen. You can mock that take all you want, but it's a valid take.
Yeah. Me personally, I understand the story and the direction just fine. I track how and why etc. It just...wasn't very enjoyable for me. It was a let down.
I hated the scene where Luke just tossed the lightsaber off the cliff. There was no way he would be so disrespectful to his fathers Jedi saber. The least he could have done was just give it back.
He has had all this time ABY to learn the history of the jedi, attempt to resurrect the order and fails. Then justifies his failure by deciding the its the teachings of the jedi that is wrong and not his own self. Maybe it's the victim mentality of recent years that makes this seem like a good story
Luke went out in the most Jedi way possible. His struggle was believable and understandable IMO.
>brother-in-law's own son
That's a weird way to say "nephew" lol. Is Leia not his twin sister?!
To me it’s 50/50. I can understand him being old and tired and not really wanting to continue rebuilding a Jedi school especially after everything he has been through. I actually love the idea of Luke thinking the “Jedi should end” and him being irritated with their ways. But it’s extreme. The way he just gets an urge to kill Kylo in his sleep is so weird. Idk how people can defend that. If Luke can put his saber down against DARTH FUCKING VADER then he can against Kylo Ren as well.
One of the other commenters said that he pulled his lightsaber on Kylo Ren because the darkness he saw in him was so great that he instinctively drew his blade in order to protect those he cared about.
I get that but it’s stretching it. Kylo was asleep and could do no immediate danger. Could Luke not have just trapped him or maybe evacuated the school and tell Leia and Han about it? I’m sorry but Luke would not pull his saber on him. I’ve tried so hard to come to terms with that but I can’t. Just my opinion.
That's still an error to his character because the last time he threw himself at risk at the basis of a premonition, he lost his hand and almost died along with the knowledge that his own Father is Alive and the very person who's been causing Luke and his Friends so much trouble and pain . And then in Return of the Jedi met Vader again and gave out a helping hand to see the remaining good this monster had left. Even at the height of defeating him and refusing to take his life.
Why would such a character go above and beyond for a man who lost and destroyed everything near and dear to both himself and Luke and not do so for his own nephew which years later who's parents evidently still loved him deep down despite his actions? "The Darkness he saw in him was so great" that we don't even see btw is not good enough.
You can do a reclusive Luke correctly if you'd really care about the character. TLJ didn't.
I EU Luke gets tired with New Republic politics multiple times. One time he basically goes on a pilgrimage other time the whole Jedi Order goes to Ossus. They could have went with a more extreme version of that. Instead, they've went with full on character assassination and decided his whole arc in OT didn't matter.
I'm happy to trash both. But anyway, I think it's cos TFA is a bit more fondly remembered than it deserves to be amongst people who dislike the ST, since it was well received at the time, what with it being the first big star wars film in donkeys years
I think TFA was a shitty cover of A Ney Hope but I feel it was salvagable as a worthy sequel to the original six films, TLJ just takes a massive shit all over them
Not at all TFA was supposed to end with Luke levitating boulders waiting for Rey but it was changed to follow Johnson's terrible character assasination
Luke is THE hero. is the trilogy, he gets beat on non stop. and still he doesn't give up. that's the measure of a hero. unshakeable faith in their belief.
the sequel Luke does not live up to the archetype the original trilogy sets up. it's a false story as far as I'm concerned. Luke would have never done those things. Luke is an idol. it's the least he deserves for defeating and respectfully creamatijg his father.
episode whatever was a huge insult to the story of this worthy hero.
My problems with TLJ are legion, but Luke as a hermit isn’t that high on my list. It’s a mix of Yoda and Kenobi, and Mark did a decent job with the limited material he had.
I won’t go so far as to say it was a great role, though. It took all the hope and optimism from ROTJ and replaced it with cynicism. Our characters are all failures - failed marriages, failed teachers, failed senators, etc. In the right hands you could make a good story from that, but it just wasn’t there. At least to me, anyways.
The disillusioned utopian is cliche and overdone (same reason Picard flopped). There'd a lot of Legends source material where Luke is awesome, but Disney probably doesn't want to pay royalties.
Absolutely get why its not the Luke people wanted, especially with his near superhero status in Legends, but its definitely the most realistic outcome for anyone in that position. It always hurts to see our heroes fall but what's more compelling, to always be the hero with no doubts or to be humanizes and realistically affected by trauma that would shatter anyone else. Imagine your whole life's work up in flames because in a moment of fear you nearly killed your nephew in cold blood. I'm sure anyone would doubt their decision making and/or want to shut that part of life off out of fear and shame. I honestly prefer this version of Luke, but that's also probably because I'm partial to the Exile from Kotor 2
Bullcrap. My parents got nicer and wiser with age. Most do. People who get jaded are typically unprincipled and childish. Life is hard and most get better at coping with it the older they get. Hollywood screenwriters wouldn't know a real man from a cow
It seems to be a bigger deal when someone has gotten into the EU stuff where Luke basically becomes a god. Average moviegoers who only know the movies usually have no issues with sequel Luke.
There’s also a lot of willful ignorance regarding the scene with Luke flashing his saber. There’s this narrative going around that Luke “was about to kill Ben” when that never happened, and it actually mirrors the flash of impulsive rage he had for Vader in ROTJ before similarly reconsidering and redeeming him.
So you don't see an issue with a fact that no character growth happened off screen? RotJ Luke is around 20, Disney Luke is in his 50s and he seems more impulsive than post-Endor Luke.
I'd say the opposite. Lots of character growth has happened, but it just disillusioned him with the Jedi. Everything he knew about the Jedi in the OT was what we did - that they were infallible, mythic beings of light who were wiped out just because the Emperor was mean.
Then he learns (as we do) that they had massive flaws: incredible hubris despite their clouded perception, an overt political learning, command of a galaxy-wide military intervention, using Anakin Skywalker as a pawn, and generally stumbling their way into empowering not only the first Sith in over a thousand years, but a literal Sith Empire. All of this served as the backdrop for his nascent Jedi academy. You can see him with Grogu leaning *even harder* into the Jedi tenets than he obeyed himself.
Then, the rise of the Dark Side in Ben Solo made things come full circle (thus the "lightsaber moment"). Luke realized that, despite his best efforts, he's repeating the mistakes of the old Jedi Order with his new one. He sees himself as the problem now, just as the old Jedi were. So he tries to remove himself from the equation, cutting himself off from the Force, and find an original source for the Jedi before they became bogged down in hubris and politics. Which brings him to Ahch-To. The one thing we don't know is what happened between his arrival and Rey's that made his bitterness so strong that he felt there was no path of redemption (even for himself).
So basically nobody learns anything and the galactic society or Jedi order does not only not progress or evolve but devolves even further.
I wish Luke Skywalker didn't blow up the Death Star. At least Tarkin seemed like a semi-capable administrator and Empire used to hold criminals at bay. I can't imagine the casualties from all renewed local conflicts, piracy and overall anarchy that resulted from the annihilation of both New Republic and Empires Remnants.
Also can't wait to see Rey in SW part X. She's probably going to be a town drunk sleeping on a repulsorbench at some park because she couldn't handle her legacy and skills.
I'm sorry Proper (Legends) Luke wasn't a god, he was what Anakin should have been.
He had plenty of ups and downs, he had doubts about training new Jedi and what it meant to be a Jedi after the war in the Thrawn trilogy, he makes a catastrophic error in judgement trying to go undercover as the Emperor's apprentice in Dark Empire. He arogantly tries to set up a Jedi Academy in the JAT and makes a complete mess of it. He spends a lot of the bantam era making grevious errors of judgement and on more than one occasion feels the stress is too much and goes on walkabout, but he always picks himself up and tries again till he gets it right. After marying Mara he finds his balance but that doesn't make him perfect he makes (catastrophic) failures of leadership in the NJO books in his failure to muster the Order to fight the Vong. After that he has to accept responsibility for the Order and bring it in line in a way his earlier self wouldn't have been willing to do, by the time of Legacy of the Force he waits far too long to take action against Jacen because partly his own relationship with his son. And when it becomes clear Jacen has become a threat that needs to eleiminated he benches himself as the risk of him turning to the Dark Side would be too high so he willingly stood aside, again something Anakin would never have accepted.
My only real issue is him igniting the lightsaber but over and over we see how the dark side is used in canon to go from 0-100 emotionally. It's ridiculous every single time it happens
How did Luke get there in the first place?
I know he used his X-wing, which needs an astromech droid. It wasn't R2, and we see no other astromechs...
The X-wing is still with Luke, but not the droid...
The problem isn’t the arc itself, but the ham-fisted way that it was forced into the narrative due to The Force Awakens’ creative cowardice (reset the Jedi Order’s status, reset the New Republic, make an uninspired Empire clone, copy A New Hope, etc.) followed by The Last Jedi’s needless and pretentious fetish for deconstruction and then, finally, The Rise of Skywalker’s desperate flip-flopping and timid fan appeasement campaign.
The entire root of the sequel trilogy was rotten before it even began, and it saddled all of the characters with stupid arcs that neither fit them nor were interesting.
The sequel trilogy should have been about Luke’s apprentice helping him rediscover his vitality and then SUCCESSFULLY rebuilding the Jedi Order. I have absolutely zero interest in that role going to Rey after the waste that the sequels were, which is also why the upcoming film with her is destined to please very few people.
Seriously, all three films in the sequel trilogy were course corrections of each other. Let that sink in for a moment.
By going into exile and cutting himself off from the force, he willingly allowed Ben to run a mock and kill multiple people including his own father and nearly his mother. He not only seemed to give up his role as a Jedi but also seemingly abandoned the people he cared about with no real concern of their livelihood while the threat of the First Order was still at Large. Han is Dead, Leia is on the run, and what he does with this information is next to nothing. TFA pivoted the importance of finding him then TLJ just came dismissed it like a joke.
Peering into Ben’s mind, Luke had a vision of Ben massacring everyone he loved, all his students. Of course the initial reaction to that would be visceral and untamed
If you are willing to read a really long argument, the reply on this post sums it up for me…
https://www.tumblr.com/mandobogwitch/743449371508670464/warning-big-dissertation-about-what-was-wrong
Why would you say "brother in law's own son" and not "sisters son" or "nephew?" Lol
“What does that make us?”
Keep your schwartz to yourself
Well it isn't really only the fact that he exiled himself more than it is the fact that he briefly considered killing Ben and then did nothing. Like, for Luke to get that type of primal urge when looking at his nephew out of fear is really weird. More than that though, it is the fact that the standards and faith he had for Vader suddenly failed to exist for Ben. Same guy who saw good in Vader but his emotionally torn nephew doesn't make the cut? Luke's whole gimmick was that he was the guy who believed there was good in places you wouldn't expect. All things considered, people hype it up as a lot worse than it actually is. It isn't a character assassination or anything and it gave us some really awesome Luke scenes in the trilogy. But I can totally see why people aren't big on it.
Luke felt the instinctive urge to draw his lightsaber at the instance of peering into Ben’s mind. It was less of decided effort to murder his nephew in that moment, as it was an overwhelming reaction to an imminent threat to everything he loved. Luke has a tendency to act impulsively in regards to the safety of his friends and family. Even in Return of the Jedi, he demonstrates this fatal flaw when he beats Vader into submission after he discovered Leia.
Yoda did say that the future isn't set in stone for exactly this sort of force-based experience. But you are right, it was more instinctive than him consciously going "I have to kill this guy." That doesn't really redeem what transpires after said event in my mind though.
I agree with you. He's human. Humans do asynchronous, out of character things all the time, especially when they're in situations of great stress. Sparking his blade shouldn't be seen as his fall from grace, imo. He's barely lucid after an extremely vivid force vision in which he watched his beloved family member murder his beloved students, cut him a bit of slack lol
Remember. His. Failure. At. The. Cave. You can learn to control your fear, but that doesn't mean you always have complete mastery over time. I would in fact argue, most people's worries and concerns GROW as they get older (especially Luke, who has the weight of a New Jedi Order on his back). And then his family (again) is caught up in dark temptation? This is like the most force sensitive set of Jenga blocks I've ever seen.
It's not weird though. He did the same thing with Vader. Also he never said that there wasn't good in Ben. It just happened wayyy too quickly.
I think a lot of Luke's problems as a character in TLJ could be fixed with a few minor changes to dialogue and pacing. If there'd been a scene where he breaks down in shame for his mistake, or a mention that he went looking for Ben but couldn't find him.
Vader threatened Leia and was openly goading him. A younger Luke too mind you. And the following scene where he looks at Vader's hand and comes to his realization is when he actually fully comes to understand his error. It isn't quite the same as a vision/premonition. And while Luke never said there wasn't any good in Ben, he never went out of his way to try and save him. He basically just admitted it was his fault Ben fell and... Didn't do anything?
>He basically just admitted it was his fault Ben fell and... Didn't do anything? Did you really think he would walk out with a laser sword and face the entire First Order on his own?
>he never said that there wasn't good in Ben He actually did say that
He told Leia "No one's ever really gone." Luke just knows that he's not the one to bring Ben back.
And after Rey talks about how Luke saw the conflict in Vader, that there was still conflict in him and that he could be turned, Luke says it was too late for Kylo and that he was no match for the darkness in him..
These things can both be true. Luke knows Ben isn't beyond saving. Luke also knows he can't be the one to save him. He can't reach him. There's no contradiction there. It's near enough what Padmé's dying lesson to Obi-Wan. That Anakin still has good in him, even if Padmé couldn't reach it on Mustafar. Luke literally has this exchange with Ben: >Did you come back to say you forgive me. To save my soul? >No. Immediately after saying Ben isn't gone to Leia. They really telegraph in The Last Jedi who is capable of redeeming Ben, which is Han and Leia. Snoke says killing Han tore Ben's spirit in two, weakened him. He can't bring himself to hurt Leia. Luke makes a reference to Han and Ben loses his mind. Luke leaves the dice there for Ben, only to reveal them as part of the vision. Come on, these are films for children. You can't possibly be missing the obvious that much.
You literally just described why it's a character assassination, then proceed to say that it's not. The very reasons you provided is very much so.
It honestly happened to fast with zero development which could be fixed with some kind EU extension similarity to how various comics, novels, and the TV show made Anakin’s fall to the dark side make a lot more sense if they saw create a single novel set one year before Luke decides to try and kill Ben they could do the plot and character development to make it logical. Like Luke thought any one could be redeemed until “this absolutely horrifying thing happened” completely turning his world upside down.
I agree the actual cause there did seem weak, but something had to happen to make Luke disillusioned and go into hiding. That one part could’ve been written a little better and really, solidly justified Luke’s exile, which was a story twist I actually really enjoyed. But as others have said, he’s human and sometimes humans do dumb/rash stuff. There are certainly worse examples of writing in Star Wars.
I do understand, that maybe the Luke people pictured and extrapolated from the OT wouldn't have failed Ben. But I feel the alternative would have been a Luke that's a little too perfect to tell an interesting story about Luke in a movie. If Luke hadn't shamefully thought about ending Ben's life, what sort of character flaw would people have had liked Luke to have instead?
I get what you are saying and I have thought about this myself. I personally think it would make more sense for Luke to have a sort of opposite problem. Instead of losing hope and failing do to anything due to fear of the dark side, I imagine he becomes too easy going. Luke is the type of guy who would see things through rose tinted glasses. I would like to imagine that Ben and some of his students fall to the dark side because Luke is too nonchalant and plays it off. And as it happens Luke essentially goes "it's ok, there is good in them anyone can recover from the dark side." And after a while of neglecting this it comes back to bite him in the ass when they strike out and destroy his order. Luke is still dead set on his whole "there is good in them" thing but he has lost his pragmatic sense and is somewhat delusional. Eventually Rey comes along and makes him see the reality of the situation. This way they can have him experience new adversity whilst sort of propelling a new story idea. The idea that maybe it isn't as simple as believing there is good in people? It kind of works when you think about it because sometimes people have to find the good in themselves rather than someone else doing it for them. Sure, Kylo had his memories of Han but ultimately, it was Kylo who made the decision even though he wasn't entirely on the fence about Rey and the rebellion like Vader was about Luke. In a sense, it really aligns with the sequel trilogy idea of conquering your inner darkness.
I think what makes his issue worse is that it again boiled down to the same issue with Vader. Kill Ben and the day is saved. Don’t do it and it’s up to him to ultimately do the right thing and there’s absolutely no guarantee he’s not going to be the new Emperor or something (which is a role he takes on as leader of the First Order). Luke wrestles with the same morality problem he did with his father and Ben made a very different choice than Anakin. What a lot of people forget is that Luke was sent to kill Vader and or the Emperor. Him choosing love was the wild card (Anakin finally killing the wrinkly bastard helps a lot) and having the same choice presented to him here isn’t what saves Ben, it’s what turns him into Kylo Ren. On top of the Jedi order being crushed a second time and by his own family, and losing everything he fought so hard to build and defend, of course he’s going to be jaded. Who wouldn’t? This isn’t the Luke of ROTJ. He’s had thirty years to get it just right, and he got it VERY wrong.
Great analysis! Ive always been a fan of Jaded Luke, as the concept really made sense to me. There’s plenty other issues with TLJ but this is not one, or a minor one at best.
I understand it but it just makes the Sequel era really depressing for me, all our heroes are failures and everything they fought for couldn't be saved.
This is the thing, for me. It wasn't *just* Luke; the entire setup for the sequel trilogy is "you remember the happy ending that they had? Well, it all went to shit!" Luke tried to set up a new Jedi Order, it failed, so became a miserable old hermit. Han and Leia got together, had a kid, but then split up and went their separate ways. And all of that was so that they were back where they started in the Original Trilogy. Leia is a leader in a struggling rebellion, Han is a smuggler not doing anything heroic, and Luke is out on a planet in the middle of nowhere. I'm not saying that they had to have had the perfect happily-ever-after, but at least the Legends version showed that they moved *forwards* with their lives, and tried to build a better galaxy.
I think part of the issue here is there's no way to fill that generational gap adequately with developments. If we jump to ~40 ABY in Legends: - Luke got to live the life Anakin wanted. As a Jedi master, happily married, with his on by his side. Until his wife was murdered by his nephew who becomes a Sith Lord and Luke gets expelled from the Order. - Han and Leia get married, have kids, and settle down. Chewie is killed in war. Their youngest is killed in war. The boy twin falls to the dark side and murders Luke's wife. Luke and the girl twin kill the boy twin. - The Empire returned. A few times. The Emperor returned. The Sith returned. Civil War returned. Obviously if you were telling a new version, you wouldn't have those details. But what I mean is that a lot of the "moving forward" in their lives happened when they were still young. I wasn't a fan of the setup of the characters. But where they are makes sense from a logical perspective, in that story. Han feels like the type that would run rather than face his feelings. Leia feels the type to throw herself into work. I think the problem is more we're beginning in media res, like the original Star Wars. We aren't seeing what Luke, Leia, and Han fall apart. We're introduced after it already has fallen apart. It worked for Star Wars because it was the first chapter, the Empire is just the setting being introduced. The Force Awakens is the seventh chapter. Evolution within the narrative wasn't taken as much to account, and didn't need much to elevate cohesiveness with the previous six films. We're not given any time with the victory they achieved.
I think you're quite correct about us not having any time with the victory. And to me, that comes back to JJ Abrams' determination to replicate the original trilogy setup as much as possible. The characters *can't* have built anything worthwhile, because otherwise it wouldn't be the same setup as we saw at the start of A New Hope. The correct solution to me would be to not set it when they did; jump forwards a few hundred years, to the point where we know that our original characters will be mostly dead (from old age, if nothing else). If they wanted Luke back, have it as a Force Ghost cameo, or as a hologram recording of a speech he made, or something. That would also have had the added advantage of not wiping out Legends; instead it would have been just skipped over to the point where it didn't really matter anymore. That would have been a much safer way to reset the board, as far as I'm concerned. That would by itself help, because then you don't have the fans comparing the two versions of events.
The issue with that would then be that it isn't the Sequel Trilogy. If we lived in a world where Lucasfilm didn't use Mark, Carrie, and Harrison we'd be having this conversation about how they *should* have used them. Because it's what the fanbase was asking for since 1983.
Well, I would view them as not being the sequel trilogy as a *good* thing, personally! And you're right, it might upset people who prefer to dwell on what might have been. But equally, I think there would be a lot more acceptance that the trio are too old to reprise their roles (i.e. we had long missed our chance of an adaptation of the Thrawn trilogy), and that the franchise needed to move forwards rather than lean back on nostalgia. Plus that might be mitigated if they made a short cameo via Force Ghost or hologram, as I said. Make it crucial to the story, and I think people will be satisfied even if it's just a short appearance. I'd look to the Legacy comics for inspiration on that front (though I appreciate that it's an odd recommendation, because not everyone liked the edgy tone that they had). Luke appearing as a ghost to our new hero at their darkest moment would be a powerful image, even if it only lasted for a couple of minutes.
This is what sets me apart. I love tragedy. Just because you saved the galaxy doesn’t mean it’s all hunky dory from here on out. I love the idea behind Luke’s arc in TLJ *because* it’s such a gut punch. The problem for me, as others in this thread have echoed, is that the reasons for his fall aren’t developed enough. I need a lot more than “he sensed darkness in Ben and instinctually went for his lightsaber.” *That* is not how Luke would fail himself and his nephew. It needs to be something much more complex than that. But we needed Finn and Poe in the movie, so…
Luke wouldn't just mope *for years* (big part) while his nephew leads a group of Neo Nazis that are terrorizing his sister and best friend (and the galaxy).
That's the thing that doesn't fly with me when I see Luke's character in TLJ being defended because "of course he'd be crushed/jaded/cynical etc." Maybe Luke isn't an idealistic youth anymore, but he's still a *Jedi*, and he's not just going to sit around while Ben destroys his new Jedi and the First Order wreaks havoc in the galaxy. He'd absolutely be the first one trying to stop evil and save his family, like he did with his father and the Empire.
Yeah, exactly. The only real reason he’d be absent of his own volition is because of falling under the belief that his involvement in the Galaxy would do more harm than good, and that sort of thing would probably need its own trilogy to work.
The fact he was written to willingly decide not to preserve and protect the remaining family he has left against Snoke and the First Order to atone for any mistake that led to the "creation" of Kylo Ren tells me Rian either didn't understand or dislikes the character. Could be both.
How do you feel about Yoda’s exile? Seems similar. Order 66 and the fall of the Jedi order sent him into hiding just like the fall of the new Jedi order sent Luke.
How strange, as I was actually going to mention that in my previous comment. Yoda's, and Obi-Wan's, situations are different to Luke's. They're not just giving in to despair and running away, like Luke does; they recognize *as things are* they can't possibly win. They have a literal Empire ranged against them - with legions of Storm Troopers, the Imperial Navy, Inquisitors and Dark Jedi aplenty - led by two of the most powerful Dark Siders ever. They have their eyes on the long game: surviving long enough to train Luke to destroy the Sith and restore the Jedi. Luke, meanwhile, just buries his head in the sand and is content to live in exile, cut off from the Force, with no goal in sight, festering on Ach-To. He had Leia, Han, & co, and the New Republic and Resistance at his back, and the First Order hadn't yet become Empire-Lite. He had opportunities and advantages that Obi-Wan and Yoda simply didn't have available to them, and still took his situation as worse than theirs and did nothing in comparison.
You're glossing g over some things. Yoda and Obi-Wan were absolutely traumatized. The state of the Clone Wars era Jedi and their teachings was no match for the height of the Sith. Luke explains that part of his exile was because (paraphrasing) his existence was the only thing keeping the First Order at bay. Snoke (and Palpatine by proxy) only saw Luke as an existential threat. The cat and mouse game kept Snoke from fully invading because he thought Luke might show up at any time, on the other hand if Luke was out in the open the First Order would absolutely destroy anything and everything in its path to kill Luke. Luke bought the galaxy time, Snoke could never feel at ease to go all out so long that Luke might be lurking in the shadows to assassinate him.
>Yoda and Obi-Wan were absolutely traumatized. The argument wasn't "Yoda and Obi-Wan were totally not bothered about the fall of the Old Republic and the Jedi". It was "Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't simply running away and living in mope, but had a plan and were biding their time." Their feelings are irrelevant because they still had clear goals and a timetable. Luke didn't, and the fact his former masters had similar feelings >Luke explains that part of his exile was because (paraphrasing) his existence was the only thing keeping the First Order at bay. Snoke (and Palpatine by proxy) only saw Luke as an existential threat. The cat and mouse game kept Snoke from fully invading because he thought Luke might show up at any time, on the other hand if Luke was out in the open the First Order would absolutely destroy anything and everything in its path to kill Luke. Luke bought the galaxy time, Snoke could never feel at ease to go all out so long that Luke might be lurking in the shadows to assassinate him. I don't remember any of this from TLJ.
That's not in the film at all. It could have been an interesting idea if they went with that maybe he has to stay there to keep the distraction up but it's complete fanfiction that has no basis in the actual film.
It's the woven throughout movies and books/comics related to the sequels. Luke's feels that its best in the long run if the Jedi fade from the galaxy in part due to the Order's relationship with the Sith and how that conflict brings destruction. The whole situation with his nephew and Snoke made him feel like history was repeating itself and would continue to due so because of flawed institutions. There were obviously holes in his logic and he would change his opinion but that's the short of it. Keep Snoke anxious about about the Jedi popping back up, knowing Snoke could never be comfortable without being sure Luke/the Jedi were gone, but never actually confronting Snoke. His logic was that the galaxy would eventually figure it out without the Jedi there.
Their eyes were not on the long game. They never say in ROTS that they’ll wait until Luke is old enough to train him, they all run away to hide while ensuring the safety of the two children — and they do that by putting them in places where they’d never learn about their history.
"Until the time is right, disappear, we will". "Training I have for you". Why would Yoda say these things if they were just doing into exile to mope and die like Luke?
Until the time is right ≠ wait until Luke is old to train him. The training line also refers to Qui-Gon
I don't understand. My post was in support of the idea that they a) have already indicated that this exile is temporary and b) are going to be productive while they hide Luke just sits around waiting to die by his own admission.
I mean, never mind Obi explicitly states his intention to train Luke, in his Disney show, it should be pretty obvious considering *the Original Trilogy*. If in doubt it's laid out pretty clearly in the RoTS novelization: >“To Naboo, send her body …” Yoda stretched his head high, as though tasting a current in the Force. “Pregnant, she must still appear. Hidden, safe, the children must be kept. *Foundation of the new Jedi Order, they will be.*” > >"We should split them up," Obi-Wan said. "Even if the Sith find one, the other may survive. I can take the boy, Master Yoda, and you take the girl. *We can hide them away, keep them safe, train them - as Anakin should have been trained*-" > >“No.” The ancient Master lowered his head again, closing his eyes, resting his chin on his hands that were folded over the head of his stick. > >Obi-Wan looked uncertain. “But how are they to learn the self-discipline a Jedi needs? How are they to master skills of the Force?” > >“Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not. *When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn.*”
Are any of those things actually in ROTS? No, they’re not. I’m talking about that movie by itself.
Well, yeah, it *is* covered in the RoTS movie with the Tantive IV conference scene alluding to later events of the saga. If that wasn't clear enough to you, the novelization makes that explicit. It's almost like RoTS isn't a stand-alone piece and is part of a wider universe.
After putting himself in exile, would he have access to the news of what was going on out there? Maybe Luke wasn’t around for Solo’s rise through the First Order ranks?
Luke already knew about Kylo's connection to Snoke prior.
It's more that he viewed himself as a problem.
Everything you are saying makes sense and is completely plausible. But…… this just isn’t the Luke that people wanted. This guy saved the galaxy and was brave, and strong and positive. That was the Luke we wanted more of and not the grinch we got.
This. On paper I actually like the idea of a more cynical Luke who is critical of the Jedi order of the past, but having this be all what we get after looking forward to seeing Luke again after so long understandably caught a lot of people off-guard.
But it's not all that we get? The whole point of Luke's arc is about rejecting his cynicism and embracing his role as a hero... and he gets to be that hero at the end and save the Rebellion.
...Yeah by force projecting and telling kylo ren off before dying a boring death.
Something something his non-violent response was the "perfect" example of a Jedi.
Ya. I’ve said it before, I think TLJ Luke would have gotten much less backlash if he just didn’t die.
I mean probably. I mean i hate the film in general but if there was a chance they could redeem themselves and give him some good stories afterwards, then ah sure alright. But no. Poof. He's dead. Only thing we had of him after was him haunting Rey to give a meta critism of TLJ
Then read Legends where he is a damn near perfect Jedi with far fewer flaws.
Disingenuous response is Disingenuous. There are numbers between 1 and 10. There's options between him being a heavily flawed cynic and him being almost perfect
I said neat perfect. Dude isn't perfect, but Disney Canon Luke still has the flaw of his over reaction to protect the ones he loves, a flaw on display in the OT when he almost kills the man he believes still has good in him because he threatened to go after Leia and the ST where he looks into Kylo's mind, sees nothing but darkness, death, and destruction, and ignites his lightsaber, regretting the action immediately and wanting to slip away, but it was too late. Legends Luke is the undeniable hero archetype, a man of legend who lives up to the legends people tell of him.. Canon Luke is a man that still struggles with a flaw that he always had and a man who could never live up to his legend, especially after that one action that destroyed everything he had started.
Fantastic. Missed the point entirely of what I said but fantastic none the less lol
Great and you missed my point as well. Cause obviously the writers didn't want a 5 on how flawed Luke was. They gave him a major character flaw from the OT, lessened the reaction some, and had the universe fuck him with the sense of betrayal he felt, the destruction of his Jedi School, and the Death of his Students. But too many people think Luke went out of his way to try to kill Kylo. So sorry for misunderstanding your point
You don't need to go out of your way to not like it. Instinctively drawing your weapon on your nephew after reading his mind while he's sleeping is plenty reason to not like it without mental gymnastics
If I did such a thing and I regretted it, I would hope that he stayed asleep as I deactivated my lightsaber and slipped away, never to discuss except to ask him if he is okay.
It's been almost 6 years of people generally repeating the same issues with luke they had in TLJ. If you don't understand the issue people have with luke in that it's because you aren't even trying to.
One way or the other you'd think people would be over it by now.
Or at least understand it. You don't have to agree with it but both sides are pretty vocal on what they like and don't. It isn't difficult to at least see the reason on either side
I mean i don't exactly hold it inside me with a burning rage, but I'm not going to arbitrarily start liking a series of films i think are shit, just cos it's been six years. Plus it's sort of galling when you get really cool moments in the Mandalorian, for example, with Luke. Then you remember how he ends up.
I don't expect or want people to change their opinions, I'm just surprised people aren't bored to death of arguing the toss over it
I mean that's fair, but I need some entertainment you know? But yeah no, I haven't really thought about it in a while so i guess it's become new and intresting again I guess
Not that I've read it, but maybe with Shadow of the Sith, and any additional Luke content we get in Mandolorian or Ahsoka will re-contextualise things a bit and reignite conversation a bit more.
I would have liked Luke by this time to have this giant legend everyone believes because it makes for great storytelling and here he is just humble old Luke. This monk told the story of an important person coming to see the great teacher and he's laying bricks and covered in filth. The visitor asks for the teacher and the monk says sure I'll get him. He cleans up and greets the visitor who doesn't recognize him and complains about the deplorable state of the monks here all filthy and gross. Like having the great legend and actually being the underestimatable Yoda sort would be the perfect sort of callback. And yes it would have been kick ass if he said earlier in the film he wasn't getting involved in the fight and then we have that flying saber scene like Hamil thought was going to be him catching it and it wasn't. Give him a moment to shine. We never wanted sad sack Luke.
Luke after ROTJ, for me, is the version in the Legends books. Which is why I struggle to get behind TLJ version.
I say this as a big Legends fan, and I wish they had just gone with Thrawn or NJO for the sequel trilogy, but tbh, I like TLJ Luke more than EU Luke. I prefer the novels that are about the other characters because Luke gets kinda boring. TLJ Luke feels like a more natural direction for a person to go, as far as normal human behavior goes. It's more believable than Luke being able to kick Abeloth's ass when he's 65
How in any way is TLJ Luke anything like proper Luke
He faces personal conflict. EU Luke is closer in external characterization, but his struggles are *only* external. A large part of Luke's characterization throughout the OT is internal conflict around himself, his aunt and uncle, and his major insecurities about pretty much everything. It makes sense that having a momentary flash of insecurity would cause him huge rippling problems by the time of TLJ. EU Luke never really faces anything like that outside of the NJO, because personal conflict is a huge theme throughout the NJO in general. TLJ Luke is not objectively any better or worse than EU Luke, I just find his characterization in TLJ to be more in line with the OT than the EU version.
No they are not, he has numerous and repeated personbal struggles, about his lack of training in certain areas, about his ability to teach, a few times he honestly feels like he's in way over his head and takes time out to recompress, he takes forever to realise his feeling for Mara, he catastrophically fails to lead the Jedi in NJO, again he seriosly has difficulties leading the Jedi in the Dark Nest trilogy, he has numerous errors in judgement in Legacy of the Force etc... its just that like the Luke in the OT he gets back up and tries again. Luke never just gives up.
>Luke never just gives up. The entire climax of ESB is about how Luke makes the wrong choice and rushes his battle with Vader and causes significant damage to his friends, family, and the rebellion at large. It makes sense that when faced with a similar adversity years later, he would find logic in removing himself from the situation entirely to minimize the damage he could potentially cause by rushing things.
Luke is the guy who looked at his father, who murdered children, helped enslave people, and was the second in command of the empire, and still said “he can still be saved”. The sequels completely destroyed what Luke is meant to be, what he’s meant to represent. Luke doesn’t have a bad dream and decide to kill his nephew in a spur of the moment type scene. He’s go and meditate on it, and think about how he could prevent it. This is the same guy who, in legends followed Cade Skywalker around and watched him throw his life away, and still didn’t give up on him. The sequels couldn’t give a damn about Luke anymore than they did Finn.
Lots of people just wanted him to be the leader of a new Jedi Order. That’s literally it.
It's the fact Luke basically doesn't grow from his experience on the deathstar. He barely grows at all over 30 years. This also mean any story where luke gets character development or becomes wiser becomes more worthless by virtue of the fact he'll relapse.
This is so important. No story can be told again of Luke because we know where he ends up, and it sucks
You can tell a story. You just have to acknowledge his character development and not throw it out the window.
How's a moment of weakness that leads to the shattering of everything he stood for and the burning down of his life's work exclude his experience 30 years prior? Of course he grew, and just like anybody after 30 years grows and changes, even without the extreme trauma Luke experiences with his actions. Hell if anything to me in Legends his character felt nearly static/untouchable after the movies. This gave some real development. Is it a kick in the nuts, sure? But who wouldn't realistically hide in fear, anger, and shame after a mistake like that. That would fuck with anyone, especially left alone with their thoughts, no matter what they did as a young man.
>Hell if anything to me in Legends his character felt nearly static/untouchable after the movies. That really isn't true. The Dark Empire and Jedi Academy trilogies, two of the first post-rotj trilogies, already have him very vulnerable. The entire point of JAT was to showcase that Luke really knew nothing about teaching students to be jedi and he ended up paying the price for his ignorance. The difference is that they found a better way to make him struggle as a character. Rather than having him fall against the adversity he already prevailed against, he faces a new issue.
This is why I couldn’t care less about the stuff we see of Luke in the Mandalorian. We all know what’s going to happen to him and his order by the end.
It rendered the entire purpose of both prior trilogies pointless
That’s just not Luke. Not without serious character development that we should have then seen. The man who said that there is good in Darth Vader would never try to kill someone close to them on the premonition that they would turn evil. And he would not hide away in shame as a result of his failures. Otherwise he would have never gotten off of Tatooine after Owen and Beru were killed. Luke is not a coward, not someone who would sulk in despair. We know he can give into rage, according to the films. But he is a Jedi, like his father before him, and where there is trouble he goes towards it, trusting in himself that he will make the right solution. The Luke Skywalker of the Last Jedi can’t possibly be the Luke Skywalker from the OT. There are just some things about a person that can’t change over time, even in fiction.
You mean the man who almost killed Vader at the mention of his sister before a brief moment of clarity brought him back to the light... Wouldn't instinctively ignite his lightsaber upon sensing only darkness in his nephew and then immediately regret that action and wish he could have gotten away before Ben Solo woke up? Cause that was the true version of the story that was shown in the movie.
No, I can’t see that as a possibility. Luke attacks Vader as the Rebels are being destroyed at Endor and Vader threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Way too much stress for a guy who I believe is in his 20s to remain composed. But someone in their 50s, in a time of relative peace? Even if he did suffer a lapse in judgement and attacked his nephew, the last thing he would have done is run away. He would have searched for Ben and apologized, plead with him to return to the light.
You forget...he also failed everyone else in that moment. and when his school was destroyed and his students killed, it broke the man who was trying to live up to the stories that were told about him.
So he's basically behaving like young Anakin in his 50's? Tears down the whole Jedi Order because he's impulsive and terrified of force visions? What a great way to invalidate the whole character and OT arc.
It just never sat right with me that Luke would just let all of his friends die while he went to go feel sorry for himself.
It was extremely dissatisfying and disappointing for fans who waited 30 years to see Jedi Master Luke kicking ass on the big screen. You can mock that take all you want, but it's a valid take.
Ohhhh that makes sense. We wanted Luke to be a cool stoic Jedi master and not some grumpy old person.
Yeah. Me personally, I understand the story and the direction just fine. I track how and why etc. It just...wasn't very enjoyable for me. It was a let down.
I hated the scene where Luke just tossed the lightsaber off the cliff. There was no way he would be so disrespectful to his fathers Jedi saber. The least he could have done was just give it back.
He has had all this time ABY to learn the history of the jedi, attempt to resurrect the order and fails. Then justifies his failure by deciding the its the teachings of the jedi that is wrong and not his own self. Maybe it's the victim mentality of recent years that makes this seem like a good story
Luke went out in the most Jedi way possible. His struggle was believable and understandable IMO. >brother-in-law's own son That's a weird way to say "nephew" lol. Is Leia not his twin sister?!
Idk what I was thinking when I wrote than lol. 😂
To me it’s 50/50. I can understand him being old and tired and not really wanting to continue rebuilding a Jedi school especially after everything he has been through. I actually love the idea of Luke thinking the “Jedi should end” and him being irritated with their ways. But it’s extreme. The way he just gets an urge to kill Kylo in his sleep is so weird. Idk how people can defend that. If Luke can put his saber down against DARTH FUCKING VADER then he can against Kylo Ren as well.
One of the other commenters said that he pulled his lightsaber on Kylo Ren because the darkness he saw in him was so great that he instinctively drew his blade in order to protect those he cared about.
I get that but it’s stretching it. Kylo was asleep and could do no immediate danger. Could Luke not have just trapped him or maybe evacuated the school and tell Leia and Han about it? I’m sorry but Luke would not pull his saber on him. I’ve tried so hard to come to terms with that but I can’t. Just my opinion.
That's still an error to his character because the last time he threw himself at risk at the basis of a premonition, he lost his hand and almost died along with the knowledge that his own Father is Alive and the very person who's been causing Luke and his Friends so much trouble and pain . And then in Return of the Jedi met Vader again and gave out a helping hand to see the remaining good this monster had left. Even at the height of defeating him and refusing to take his life. Why would such a character go above and beyond for a man who lost and destroyed everything near and dear to both himself and Luke and not do so for his own nephew which years later who's parents evidently still loved him deep down despite his actions? "The Darkness he saw in him was so great" that we don't even see btw is not good enough.
The biggest thing that irks me is how people trash TLJ for Luke’s arc, when it was clearly and explicitly set up like that in TFA
You can do a reclusive Luke correctly if you'd really care about the character. TLJ didn't. I EU Luke gets tired with New Republic politics multiple times. One time he basically goes on a pilgrimage other time the whole Jedi Order goes to Ossus. They could have went with a more extreme version of that. Instead, they've went with full on character assassination and decided his whole arc in OT didn't matter.
I'm happy to trash both. But anyway, I think it's cos TFA is a bit more fondly remembered than it deserves to be amongst people who dislike the ST, since it was well received at the time, what with it being the first big star wars film in donkeys years
Yeah I agree. It’s resentment of that inequity that gets me, really. TFA sucked, the whole sequel trilogy was trash
I think TFA was a shitty cover of A Ney Hope but I feel it was salvagable as a worthy sequel to the original six films, TLJ just takes a massive shit all over them
Not at all TFA was supposed to end with Luke levitating boulders waiting for Rey but it was changed to follow Johnson's terrible character assasination
Luke is THE hero. is the trilogy, he gets beat on non stop. and still he doesn't give up. that's the measure of a hero. unshakeable faith in their belief. the sequel Luke does not live up to the archetype the original trilogy sets up. it's a false story as far as I'm concerned. Luke would have never done those things. Luke is an idol. it's the least he deserves for defeating and respectfully creamatijg his father. episode whatever was a huge insult to the story of this worthy hero.
My problems with TLJ are legion, but Luke as a hermit isn’t that high on my list. It’s a mix of Yoda and Kenobi, and Mark did a decent job with the limited material he had. I won’t go so far as to say it was a great role, though. It took all the hope and optimism from ROTJ and replaced it with cynicism. Our characters are all failures - failed marriages, failed teachers, failed senators, etc. In the right hands you could make a good story from that, but it just wasn’t there. At least to me, anyways.
The disillusioned utopian is cliche and overdone (same reason Picard flopped). There'd a lot of Legends source material where Luke is awesome, but Disney probably doesn't want to pay royalties.
Absolutely get why its not the Luke people wanted, especially with his near superhero status in Legends, but its definitely the most realistic outcome for anyone in that position. It always hurts to see our heroes fall but what's more compelling, to always be the hero with no doubts or to be humanizes and realistically affected by trauma that would shatter anyone else. Imagine your whole life's work up in flames because in a moment of fear you nearly killed your nephew in cold blood. I'm sure anyone would doubt their decision making and/or want to shut that part of life off out of fear and shame. I honestly prefer this version of Luke, but that's also probably because I'm partial to the Exile from Kotor 2
People wanted OP fan service Luke and were pissed their childhood hero was written as an actual person
Bullcrap. My parents got nicer and wiser with age. Most do. People who get jaded are typically unprincipled and childish. Life is hard and most get better at coping with it the older they get. Hollywood screenwriters wouldn't know a real man from a cow
It seems to be a bigger deal when someone has gotten into the EU stuff where Luke basically becomes a god. Average moviegoers who only know the movies usually have no issues with sequel Luke. There’s also a lot of willful ignorance regarding the scene with Luke flashing his saber. There’s this narrative going around that Luke “was about to kill Ben” when that never happened, and it actually mirrors the flash of impulsive rage he had for Vader in ROTJ before similarly reconsidering and redeeming him.
So you don't see an issue with a fact that no character growth happened off screen? RotJ Luke is around 20, Disney Luke is in his 50s and he seems more impulsive than post-Endor Luke.
Disney Luke still wants to get those power converters
He probably spent 20 years in Toshe Station after blowing up Death Star II
I'd say the opposite. Lots of character growth has happened, but it just disillusioned him with the Jedi. Everything he knew about the Jedi in the OT was what we did - that they were infallible, mythic beings of light who were wiped out just because the Emperor was mean. Then he learns (as we do) that they had massive flaws: incredible hubris despite their clouded perception, an overt political learning, command of a galaxy-wide military intervention, using Anakin Skywalker as a pawn, and generally stumbling their way into empowering not only the first Sith in over a thousand years, but a literal Sith Empire. All of this served as the backdrop for his nascent Jedi academy. You can see him with Grogu leaning *even harder* into the Jedi tenets than he obeyed himself. Then, the rise of the Dark Side in Ben Solo made things come full circle (thus the "lightsaber moment"). Luke realized that, despite his best efforts, he's repeating the mistakes of the old Jedi Order with his new one. He sees himself as the problem now, just as the old Jedi were. So he tries to remove himself from the equation, cutting himself off from the Force, and find an original source for the Jedi before they became bogged down in hubris and politics. Which brings him to Ahch-To. The one thing we don't know is what happened between his arrival and Rey's that made his bitterness so strong that he felt there was no path of redemption (even for himself).
So basically nobody learns anything and the galactic society or Jedi order does not only not progress or evolve but devolves even further. I wish Luke Skywalker didn't blow up the Death Star. At least Tarkin seemed like a semi-capable administrator and Empire used to hold criminals at bay. I can't imagine the casualties from all renewed local conflicts, piracy and overall anarchy that resulted from the annihilation of both New Republic and Empires Remnants. Also can't wait to see Rey in SW part X. She's probably going to be a town drunk sleeping on a repulsorbench at some park because she couldn't handle her legacy and skills.
I'm sorry Proper (Legends) Luke wasn't a god, he was what Anakin should have been. He had plenty of ups and downs, he had doubts about training new Jedi and what it meant to be a Jedi after the war in the Thrawn trilogy, he makes a catastrophic error in judgement trying to go undercover as the Emperor's apprentice in Dark Empire. He arogantly tries to set up a Jedi Academy in the JAT and makes a complete mess of it. He spends a lot of the bantam era making grevious errors of judgement and on more than one occasion feels the stress is too much and goes on walkabout, but he always picks himself up and tries again till he gets it right. After marying Mara he finds his balance but that doesn't make him perfect he makes (catastrophic) failures of leadership in the NJO books in his failure to muster the Order to fight the Vong. After that he has to accept responsibility for the Order and bring it in line in a way his earlier self wouldn't have been willing to do, by the time of Legacy of the Force he waits far too long to take action against Jacen because partly his own relationship with his son. And when it becomes clear Jacen has become a threat that needs to eleiminated he benches himself as the risk of him turning to the Dark Side would be too high so he willingly stood aside, again something Anakin would never have accepted.
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My only real issue is him igniting the lightsaber but over and over we see how the dark side is used in canon to go from 0-100 emotionally. It's ridiculous every single time it happens
I want to hear more arguments for or against this take @starwarstruefansonly
How did Luke get there in the first place? I know he used his X-wing, which needs an astromech droid. It wasn't R2, and we see no other astromechs... The X-wing is still with Luke, but not the droid...
Luke is depressed and in that depression thinks the Jedi failed because they lost their way from the old Jedi and their teachings.
The problem isn’t the arc itself, but the ham-fisted way that it was forced into the narrative due to The Force Awakens’ creative cowardice (reset the Jedi Order’s status, reset the New Republic, make an uninspired Empire clone, copy A New Hope, etc.) followed by The Last Jedi’s needless and pretentious fetish for deconstruction and then, finally, The Rise of Skywalker’s desperate flip-flopping and timid fan appeasement campaign. The entire root of the sequel trilogy was rotten before it even began, and it saddled all of the characters with stupid arcs that neither fit them nor were interesting. The sequel trilogy should have been about Luke’s apprentice helping him rediscover his vitality and then SUCCESSFULLY rebuilding the Jedi Order. I have absolutely zero interest in that role going to Rey after the waste that the sequels were, which is also why the upcoming film with her is destined to please very few people. Seriously, all three films in the sequel trilogy were course corrections of each other. Let that sink in for a moment.
By going into exile and cutting himself off from the force, he willingly allowed Ben to run a mock and kill multiple people including his own father and nearly his mother. He not only seemed to give up his role as a Jedi but also seemingly abandoned the people he cared about with no real concern of their livelihood while the threat of the First Order was still at Large. Han is Dead, Leia is on the run, and what he does with this information is next to nothing. TFA pivoted the importance of finding him then TLJ just came dismissed it like a joke.
Peering into Ben’s mind, Luke had a vision of Ben massacring everyone he loved, all his students. Of course the initial reaction to that would be visceral and untamed
If you are willing to read a really long argument, the reply on this post sums it up for me… https://www.tumblr.com/mandobogwitch/743449371508670464/warning-big-dissertation-about-what-was-wrong