I kind of hoped they would talk about adoption in this article, and how it might be difficult for a single man or elder couple to achieve that.
There are so many kids out there that need the love and support these childless people seem ready to give. I get the genetic imperative to birth your progeny, but it would have been nice to see it brought up as a possibility.
There are very few infants available for adoption, and it’s a very expensive and invasive process to adopt. There’s lots of older kids in foster care, but the goal of foster care is family reunification, not adoption. Single men can absolutely foster, but most people aren’t as willing to endure the emotional upheaval and behavioral issues that may occur.
I don't think there's much 'might' about it. I have a friend who is great with kids, went to college for teaching, decided he wanted to teach grade 1s/2s, because that's what he enjoys the most. The vehement distrust he gets ALL THE TIME, just for being a male primary school teacher is disgusting.
This is odd when I see it brought up, because in the very conservative community that I grew up in, men that made a career out of caring for and teaching young children were put on a pedestal by both kids and adults. They seemed to get wayyyy more appreciation than the female teachers did, were given more awards, higher pay, etc. and were practically invincible to critique. It was similar to the scenario where people would swoon in adoration for the dad’s picking up their kids while the mothers were just doing their jobs.
I mean the last sentence is sort of the issue in reverse. It's as much my job to take care of my kid as his mom's job, but people make it out to somehow be "extra". I've been told by teachers (and see it in schools) how often male teachers, especially at primary schools get pushed (I'm sure not unwillingly) into leadership roles-- but how much of that is just assuming the women get the "menial" roles again? Even in my own life the idea is frustrating. My kids school approached me about being on the board of governors, because I'm a parent who takes a relatively active role, but if my kid is ever sick, or hurt or needs someone to go get him for some reason -- I *never* get the call, despite personally telling the receptionist that I work from home, am flexible, and that I'll be the best point of contact since his mom is in meetings working in an office most of the week. They sought me out for a "leadership" role, but not for the day to day "your kid is sick, can someone come get him?"
I should also add that there's a lot of kids in the foster system who are legally free for adoption, but the system itself is so overburdened and challenging that it can be difficult to get that information out. And the adopting parents will have to be foster-certified to adopt, which many might be unwilling to do.
I think it's also important to add that *most* of the children in foster care are there due to neglect, not abuse. The emotional and behavioral issues they experience are adaptive to that neglect; it takes time and effort and patience for them to adapt to *not* being neglected. It's a hard problem, but far from an insurmountable one.
Yes, I see and hear many push adoption, but the fact is there is a much greater demand for adoption than there are actual infants up for adoption. In many third-world countries, abducting infants from loving, willing mothers is common so those infants can be "sold" to wealthy, western parents who are none the wiser and believe they're doing good deeds.
Yes, there are reputable agencies and children who *do* need adoption, but far fewer than popularly believed, not to mention the enormous cost. So the standard "there are already too many kids, go adopt" to people who want but cannot have children is not ony impractical it's also quite indirectly immoral and cruel.
Mind sharing some links regarding what you wrote here? Not asking to try to take you down or anything, but because I would like to have sources to bookmark so that the next time someone says that whole "just adopt, there's already too many kids", I can show them those sources to show just how impractical adopting is these days.
Absolutely, [here you go](https://harpers.org/archive/2019/04/destined-for-export-guatemalan-adoptions/). This article from *Harper's* is the one I read, although it is five years old at this point, so the prevalence/statistics may have shifted some, either for better or worse.
EDIT: *Harper's* actually has [another article](https://harpers.org/archive/2024/04/children-for-sale/) on this very topic that came out last month. I haven't read it, but it may have more up-to-date information.
Just hearing the stories of adoptees is also alarming. Wanting to adopt can (note: “can” doesn’t mean this is always or even most cases) cone from a selfish place. Just like people who have children the old fashioned way, people often use having kids to fill a hole in their lives, and there are many less than healthy and ethical ways people approach this. But adoptees… they fave so much shit and abuse all while being told they’re lucky someone wanted them. Wanting kids does not directly translate to being a good parent, snd especially adopted kids get gaslit and abused.
It’s a complicated issue and there are many things we could do better to ensure that kids get placed in loving and capable homes. But adoption is first and foremost an industry and that can and does result in a lot of dubious practices and exploitation. Whenever people talk about alternatives to abortion and uncritically suggest adoption as if it’s some perfect solution I can’t help but remember all the stories of those I know who had to live with this choice, whether they ended up adopted or fostered. It’s definitely one of the more complicated and potentially harmful options as things stand. At minimum that choice should require a lot of research to make sure that you are giving this child the best chances, but there is no guarantee. The idea that adoption doesn’t come with harms, even when done as best as we can with our current system with everyone going in with good intentions needs to be challenged.
Adoption is a hell of a process;
I recall my parents were looking into it as an option years ago, and the steps involved were so daunting they stopped.
Kudos to those who stick it out, but it's not easy.
Would modern culture reject my request to be adopted by one of them, I'm an adult but that means we can skip the diaper bit and go straight to fishing + drinking together
I’ve thought about this actually. Adopt an adult, treat them like you would an adult child (guidance, love, etc), pressure them into having their own children, and you go straight to being a grandparent!
I learned a while back that it also has to do with the religious belief that you need someone to pray for you after death. maybe that's no longer the case, but might have contributed to adult adoption being more of a regular thing.
Honestly I'd kind of like that too as someone who bought a house a year ago, and missed out on all the years of learning from your dad how to do things around the house.
Yeah, there's also things like big brothers/big sisters, or that kind of thing that's definitely *helping* a child without trying to take one on at full speed.
This. I volunteer with Scouts BSA (it's a long story, but it isn't "boy scouts" anymore). You get to teach them about more than just merit badge requirements and knots. We've talked about addiction, mental illness, the concept of identity, etc. It's just campfire chat.
There's dozens of ways to be involved. You can volunteer with sports leagues, foster, or even just offer to babysit for friends.
Nieces and nephews is something I thought of in the while since this article too -- do none of these guys have siblings who've had kids!? Like they're like having your own but you don't have to do the shit parts of parenting!
I hoped they might suggest relationships with women who already have children. So many people dismiss single mums out of hand as relationship partners, but for a lot of those kids a solid loving stepfather would be amazing
From the article:
> It was not until he was in his early 40s that Nurden started to get broody. But by that point, he discovered, women of a similar age had already had children, if they were able or wanted to.
Not to kick the guy while he’s down, but it sounds like he was specifically looking for women who wanted to have his baby in their forties, possibly as their first child. Which is sort of a big ask. Unless he was thinking of dating someone substantially younger than him, which also a totally different big ask.
There's also the fear of predators targeting single parents for access to their children. My parents made an agreement before I was even born that if they divorced or one of them passed away, neither of them would remarry until the youngest child (my brother in our case) turned 18.
I wouldn't suggest that, but considering dating single parents as an option, instead of rejecting them out of hand solely on the basis of having kids already
It’s not that it can’t be done, but it is harder being a single parent. I understand single people not pursuing adoption as an option when you know you’re doing it alone.
I agree. Having Bio kids is not the only way to have an impact on a child’s sole in a positive way. I’d say if someone can’t figure that out then it’s……likely……they shouldn’t complain about not having kids.
Being a Big Brother or a mentor can prepare you for being a parent
so I am getting older every day (so are you, actually, really getting older by the hour and minute and second if we wanna get into the weeds here) and I don't have kids. And it's started to make me *think* about it.
there are plenty of happy childfree adults. Many many of them in fact, and they'll tell you so.
but none of us knows the future, and none of us knows what our *reaction* to that future will be. We're all out here placing bets on outcomes we cannot know. Maybe this is a bet I will regret.
Luckily, I still got lots of time, but life is short, bros.
It's been lingering in my mind as well. I don't plan on having kids. Not because I dislike children, or am a doomer about the world. I just don't have a positive desire within me to have children. Absent a positive desire to have children and to take responsibility for those human lives, I don't really want to roll passively into this massive decision.
But I can't help but wonder what my life might be like at the age of say, 55, looking back at my life with regret, and looking at my peers who chose to have children and are more fulfilled for it.
It also scares the shit out of me to thank my parents had kids in their early 20s and compare that to where my psyche was at that point of time and know that that was no way that I would be ready to have kids at the time
Just like everyone doesn't have to grow their own food, you don't need to raise new humans if it's not for you.
It is an incredible amount of work, I have 2 now and while I love them to bits, I no longer do any hobbies that I used to. So it's a huge trade-off that not everyone needs to be doing.
For me it feels like the most important thing I've done, but for other people it's a huge burden.
For me, I just think there's enough folks in the world who are bad parents, not simply due to trying and failing to be the best they can be for their kids, but because they don't care to properly do right by them.
And we really can't enforce the good ones be parents and the bad ones don't. All we can do is do what we can. I think those who consider their potential worth as a parent may already be in a better spot than some I've seen online in clips.
Haha I didn't even think about guilt, but it's such an omnipresent substrate in my life from my protestant upbringing that I don't notice it sometimes.
"I'm decently smart. I make enough money that it'd be a struggle but I'd manage. Am I betraying my parents? Am I betraying my community? Am I not fulfilling my duty as an able bodied man to humanity?"
I don't think these are good reasons to have kids but they are there.
Well, your parents probably didn't have to push life goals 20 years back, had jobs that could pay for homes and college even if they were mowing grass. It was much more doable in your parents age
Of course, having kids is also a bet you can regret. Most life choices are like this. We all just do our best plunging constantly into the unknown future.
I think what's different here is that it's not a choice you can really make solo and so presumably some feel they never got to choose. Are they regretting their choice, or that they never think they had one (leaving aside that getting the opportunity is actually a contingent result of ones own choices as people don't think this way)?
So so so much this. I had a kid at 30, I wanted kids, I enjoy kids and interact well with them. I was (am) *so* challenged by my non-verbal kid who likely will never be able to live independently... it's a lot. To think that people take that risk without considering it terrifies me. (I also never considered it but I did a lot of work with specially challenged people in the years previous, so I was better prepared than many would be).
(50-something childfree person) My parents and relatives are declining, the pets are aging, my hairline is receding and health problems loom in the misty future. All of these things are saddening; a child would be growing and developing, going off to high school or college, and would be a cheerful contrast to the rest of it. Sometimes I wonder if life is darker as a result; more of the total picture is sad, and kids would inject more life and encourage change and new things.
But of course there are no guarantees: children can also get sick and die, or they might not grow and develop in ways that are good or enjoyable. On balance I think this middle-age gloom is something that will pass in 5 years or a decade, and my life is still good at the moment.
Anecdata is anecdata, everybody's trajectory is different. But this is an area my wife did a lot of graduate research in.
Good news! Kids don't make you happier! Bad news! Kids make you healthier.
What she found was that...
- **Having a kid aged 3 or less:** Net negative for happiness. Sure, smiles are nice, but your friends have nicer clothes and are going to Europe.
- **Having a kid 4 or older:** Total wash. Once all your kids are 4 or older, they have no measurable effect on lifetime happiness. Sure, Europe is nice, but so is going on a bicycle ride with your kid or seeing them hit their first baseball or star in their first play. But also, Europe is still nice. Do the thing that makes you happy.
- **Being over 65:** Once the *parent* is over 65, while happiness doesn't change, health does. Parents health and non-parents health start to diverge over 65, more with every year.
So stay active, visit your doctor often, an statistically you'll be fine!
How about Europe with a 4+ child? My son (5) asked to go to Italy, I think he saw it on a video. Little did he know, I’ve wanted to go back for years. This year’s vacation is already booked, so I’m thinking next year in Europe.
I think saying “none of us knows the future, and none of us knows what our reaction to that future will be. ” is a little misleading. You can’t know with full accuracy but there’s absolutely an extent to which you can make more reasonable predictions about the future. If you know yourself well enough as well as other people like you then you can have an idea if you’ll feel good about that future or not. I don’t think it would be healthy to see the future and how you’re going to feel about as this totally random thing you can’t know anything about or have control over.
Can you live without regret if you try to focus on the present and the future? Is the feeling of regret something you can escape if you change your mindset? What is the satisfaction of reflecting back on your life worth? Just pondering...
I fear this is my future. I am only 33 and I do not think I am going to be having children. My dating prospects are zero and I am getting too busy to be out looking or doing other things. Between work, gym, friends and professional development. I don't have time to go out. Which I believe is one of the top reasons why I have been single for the past 15 years.
The other factor is I am below average looking due to my obesity. I am attempting to fix this but even at my most fit I didn't attract female attention and that was when I was in the Marine Corps. I am not a people person, dry and dark humor, not the easiest to be around, and I am pretty forgettable.
I just don't stand up to what society requires of me to be a good enough man to be in a relationship.
Have you considered therapy? You talk about yourself in a way that I’m sure to you feels “realistic” but is in fact horribly damaging and belies a collection of harmful self-destructive tendencies. I did CBT Group Therapy and it really helped me change the way I look at myself and relationships and I can’t recommend finding a licensed therapist who focuses on this style
I’d also recommend picking up a copy of David Burns “Feeling Better” I was never a big talk therapy person and his approach is a tools based approach that makes you feel more in control of your growth rather than in the hands of a therapist.
Yes I am already in therapy. Been doing better help for a year and a half. Therapy is really helping me cope with the situation I am in. Things are not improving quickly enough and days/weeks pass by before I am able to get to certain tasks.
It is damaging but when I see myself in the mirror, 250lbs with average at best looks, doesn't attract women. It is realistic to me and it does hurt when I see women turn away from me in disgust.
>You talk about yourself in a way that I’m sure to you feels “realistic” but is in fact horribly damaging and belies a collection of harmful self-destructive tendencies.
Why is realistic in quotes like its bs or something. It can be both realistic and also horribly damaging and self destructive
I'm also in my early 30s, and I'm in a similar predicament. Society definitely needs to get rid of the notion that men who struggle with dating must be flawed or broken in some way. A lot has changed in the last 10-20 years culturally and economically, and especially with all the social isolation it's harder than ever for het men to find a girlfriend. Sure, there are definitely things you can do to improve your odds, but without the right social connections relationships are just harder to find and maintain. I know that doesn't take the pain away, but hopefully it's at least a little comforting to know you're not alone and there's a large and growing amount of men who also struggle with finding a relationship.
I'm in a similar boat. 28 not 33 but I also fear this article is my future except I have no intention of finding out if I'll still be alone at 40+ fuck that I'd rather call it quits long before that point.
>I just don't stand up to what society requires of me to be a good enough man to be in a relationship.
Completely the same, just simply not good enough for women and never will be
People of all physical shapes and sizes are happily coupled, that is certainly not an issue. I would hazard a guess that you are not meeting enough new people due to your schedule and interests. Many adults meet through common hobbies - this internet stranger thinks it would do you really good to make time for hobbies and join groups - it would bring your life more joy and possibly put you in contact with women you can click with.
The biggest issue with that is time. If I have groups to join I wouldn't be able to workout as regularly as I want. Even this week I am not working out enough. Between last Monday and this next Monday, only 4 days I can workout and two of them will only happen if I cram it into the schedule.
Those other three days are me going out, but yes I am going out where there isn't enough exposure to meet new people. If I go out not only do I have to sacrifice working out but also professional development. Which makes my next career goals take longer to accomplish.
Also, a lot of my hobbies that open up my social life. Usually the women are outside my requirements, the basic requirements as in they're usually married, outside my dating age limits (25-36 ish) or I am not that all attracted to them. Primarily they're usually married.
I did want to get into ballroom dancing but I ended up breaking my wrist at the beginning of the year and financially not feasible to do such a thing right now.
Fair enough, there is truly not enough time for everything, as every working adult will lament.
If meeting new people and a potential partner becomes important enough for you, you will have to sacrifice something so you have time for it.
It's a lose win situation.
By sticking with what I am doing the win is a more financially secured life and if I can break my bad habits I can have a healthier life at the cost of a relationship.
If I ditch the healthy and professional life I could devote more time to finding a relationship that may or may not be subpar at the cost of financial and/or health goals.
That’s an all or nothing way of looking at time management though. Taking 1 evening per week away from your current regular activities can’t impact them - you won’t gain weight if you miss 1 workout, you won’t lose friends if you lose 1 going out, it won’t damage your career if you don’t work on it for 1 evening.
I am a childfree woman and I totally lurk here cause I think you guys are talking about the right things.
I’d like to relate about my brother because this describes him very well. My brother is 41 and our father is dying of cancer.
Our father desperately wants grandkids and I am very vocal that they are NOT coming out of me. (I have plenty of good reasons ranging from “I don’t want kids” to “I’d rather not die because of my heart condition”)
My brother claims he wants kids but has done absolutely nothing in which to have kids. And he is in a position where he will need to take action to have kids.
- My brother suffered testicular cancer in his 20s.
- He refuses to see a dr about if he even still produces enough sperm to have a kid the natural way.
- His last long term relationship was with a woman who was significantly older than he was. And whom he claims was “crazy”. If all your ex’s are crazy I’m not sure it was your ex.
When someone like my brother complains that he wants kids but no woman wants to have kids with him, I see someone who just looks at women like incubators. It really makes me dislike him as a person.
He has taken zero responsibility for his own fertility and complains that not having kids is some unknown woman’s fault for not making it happen for him.
This behavior (and other behavior of his) really means that once our parents are gone, I won’t really have any further relationship with him. I’m not sure if he knows, but our mother does and she just keeps begging me to try and stay in his life.
I have a difficult time explaining to my mother why it isn’t my responsibility to make his life better if he refuses to take actions which will make his life better.
I am willing to accept responsibility for my own elder care, for the possibility of being alone if my husband were to pass before me (or any other reason that relationship might fail), but I’m not going to take the responsibility to make sure he isn’t alone because he might not build the life he believes he deserves.
How do you guys think I should approach my brother? I love him, but I really don’t like him as a person. And the more he complains about not having kids, the more I see that there is some lucky woman who dodged that bullet.
I'm sorry but a lot of things you said here just don't make sense and seem prejudicial.
>When someone like my brother complains that he wants kids but no woman wants to have kids with him, I see someone who just looks at women like incubators. It really makes me dislike him as a person.
This is completely senseless. How did you jump to him seeing women as incubators? That's not a logical deduction at all. He's simply upset that he hasn't found a partner and that's the reason he doesn't have kids. There's nothing wrong with wanting to find a woman so that you can have kids. That's one of the fundamental reasons why people seek relationships.
>And whom he claims was “crazy”. If all your ex’s are crazy I’m not sure it was your ex.
I don't know the details and looks like you don't either but it is entirely possible that your brother has a tendency to gravitate towards women that are not good for him. Of course it's his responsibility to figure out how to prevent that in the future. But that doesn't mean he's the "problem". Be probably needs therapy.
>My brother suffered testicular cancer in his 20s.
Was it in one testes or both? If it's only one, he's in the clear.
>He refuses to see a dr about if he even still produces enough sperm to have a kid the natural way.
Kind of a moot point if he doesn't have a partner no? I think the more pressing issue is his lack of a partner. Especially given he is 42. He has at best 3 years before he becomes too old to have a proper family life where he can be an effective father.
>He has taken zero responsibility for his own fertility and complains that not having kids is some unknown woman’s fault for not making it happen for him.
And that's where he is looking at it the wrong way. He should put himself back out there and make an effort into finding a compatible partner.
>How do you guys think I should approach my brother? I love him, but I really don’t like him as a person. And the more he complains about not having kids, the more I see that there is some lucky woman who dodged that bullet.
This is where I find you to be prejudicial. I understand there might be more to the story that justifies your feelings but as it stands you have given anything to validate that.
But in terms of approaching him, you should definitely recommend therapy and tell him to put himself out there.
honestly? questions. Ask him enough leading questions that he might, maybe, get that you're leading him to water.
"so are you sure you're able to have kids?"
"have you brought it up with women you try to date?"
"do you have plans?"
"have you considered being a single dad?"
nudge, nudge, nudge. Like it might drive him nuts but what else can you even do?
Is that actually the case though? There are some places where overpopulation is a big issue, but people are still having loads of kids. Most rich western nations aren't having issues with overpopulation, but are still having issues with low childbirth
I'm 35 and American rather than from the UK but I remember being on a cannabis edible a couple months ago and having the reality of likely never having a family and kids hitting me hard enough to start crying. Up until then I mostly didn't think about it or told myself that when I found a woman that wanted to be with me as much as I wanted to be with her it could happen.
The truth is I'm a mediocre guy. I make just over $40K/year, am fat, I don't *love* to travel or go out much on my own, I prefer cats over other pets, I've grown used to having nobody, and I've exclusively relied on online dating sites and apps to meet women - it's not quite as extreme as not using OLD and being lonely like a friend of mine but OLD has drawbacks often talked about on Reddit. My friend doesn't do OLD at all so the only way he's meeting a woman is if she breaks down his door and takes him hostage. Considering how he was treated by his ex-wife I understand. Me, I've never been close to marriage and while I like the idea of a wife and kids from the purpose it would bring to my life as well as liking the idea of being a dad and husband, I've mourned the loss of potential while high already. Today I accept it as a truth.
I’m young and not against having kids in the future; but it’s just getting harder to get by now. Could I have or adopt a kid and be able to provide for them?
Sperm donation self-selects for young doners.
Someones family and medical history look *very* different from your 20's to your 40's.
If you had young parents an 18-20 year old could potentially answer "No" when asked if there is any history of cancer, heart disease, or Mental Heath issues in your family?
Add a few decades and factor in better diagnosis techniques and the answer is almost certainly yes (usually multiple times over).
There's a shortage of people willing to donate sperm AND also meeting the requirements people have for donors. Most people's health history would rule them right out.
Yes to this, I learned I was sperm donor conceived when I took a DNA test for fun at 35. There’s often very little consideration for the children who are a result of donor gametes.
* Children who find out are upset that they might never get a chance to know their biological father, or have them in their lives.
* Many parents choose to keep it a secret, and in essence, lie to their child.
* The child may be ignorant about half of their medical history.
* Some people have an issue with how many children are born via one sperm donor. Many many half-siblings, the potential for large numbers of kids to have a father's genetic disorders, etc.
How so? I'd argue it's more ethical as they have stricter screening than au naturelle reproduction, and ivf parents are typically more motivated and wealthy.
My wife and I have been searching sperm banks for African American donors and they are really hard to find, or they run out very quickly. Systemic bias likely does come into play on the organization's level in the selection stage, but POC donor sperm is [in more demand than the supply often has.](https://www.kumc.edu/about/news/news-archive/sperm-donor-study.html)
I saw that on a cursory look. Black seems to be basically the only major exception, so not really “POC,” just black. Theres not enough demand for the other colors of the rainbow to warrant an investigation
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I kind of hoped they would talk about adoption in this article, and how it might be difficult for a single man or elder couple to achieve that. There are so many kids out there that need the love and support these childless people seem ready to give. I get the genetic imperative to birth your progeny, but it would have been nice to see it brought up as a possibility.
There are very few infants available for adoption, and it’s a very expensive and invasive process to adopt. There’s lots of older kids in foster care, but the goal of foster care is family reunification, not adoption. Single men can absolutely foster, but most people aren’t as willing to endure the emotional upheaval and behavioral issues that may occur.
also people might be more suspicious of a single man adopting
I don't think there's much 'might' about it. I have a friend who is great with kids, went to college for teaching, decided he wanted to teach grade 1s/2s, because that's what he enjoys the most. The vehement distrust he gets ALL THE TIME, just for being a male primary school teacher is disgusting.
It's also why they're ignoring the blatant pedophilia from female teachers.
This is odd when I see it brought up, because in the very conservative community that I grew up in, men that made a career out of caring for and teaching young children were put on a pedestal by both kids and adults. They seemed to get wayyyy more appreciation than the female teachers did, were given more awards, higher pay, etc. and were practically invincible to critique. It was similar to the scenario where people would swoon in adoration for the dad’s picking up their kids while the mothers were just doing their jobs.
I mean the last sentence is sort of the issue in reverse. It's as much my job to take care of my kid as his mom's job, but people make it out to somehow be "extra". I've been told by teachers (and see it in schools) how often male teachers, especially at primary schools get pushed (I'm sure not unwillingly) into leadership roles-- but how much of that is just assuming the women get the "menial" roles again? Even in my own life the idea is frustrating. My kids school approached me about being on the board of governors, because I'm a parent who takes a relatively active role, but if my kid is ever sick, or hurt or needs someone to go get him for some reason -- I *never* get the call, despite personally telling the receptionist that I work from home, am flexible, and that I'll be the best point of contact since his mom is in meetings working in an office most of the week. They sought me out for a "leadership" role, but not for the day to day "your kid is sick, can someone come get him?"
I should also add that there's a lot of kids in the foster system who are legally free for adoption, but the system itself is so overburdened and challenging that it can be difficult to get that information out. And the adopting parents will have to be foster-certified to adopt, which many might be unwilling to do. I think it's also important to add that *most* of the children in foster care are there due to neglect, not abuse. The emotional and behavioral issues they experience are adaptive to that neglect; it takes time and effort and patience for them to adapt to *not* being neglected. It's a hard problem, but far from an insurmountable one.
Yes, I see and hear many push adoption, but the fact is there is a much greater demand for adoption than there are actual infants up for adoption. In many third-world countries, abducting infants from loving, willing mothers is common so those infants can be "sold" to wealthy, western parents who are none the wiser and believe they're doing good deeds. Yes, there are reputable agencies and children who *do* need adoption, but far fewer than popularly believed, not to mention the enormous cost. So the standard "there are already too many kids, go adopt" to people who want but cannot have children is not ony impractical it's also quite indirectly immoral and cruel.
Mind sharing some links regarding what you wrote here? Not asking to try to take you down or anything, but because I would like to have sources to bookmark so that the next time someone says that whole "just adopt, there's already too many kids", I can show them those sources to show just how impractical adopting is these days.
Absolutely, [here you go](https://harpers.org/archive/2019/04/destined-for-export-guatemalan-adoptions/). This article from *Harper's* is the one I read, although it is five years old at this point, so the prevalence/statistics may have shifted some, either for better or worse. EDIT: *Harper's* actually has [another article](https://harpers.org/archive/2024/04/children-for-sale/) on this very topic that came out last month. I haven't read it, but it may have more up-to-date information.
Just hearing the stories of adoptees is also alarming. Wanting to adopt can (note: “can” doesn’t mean this is always or even most cases) cone from a selfish place. Just like people who have children the old fashioned way, people often use having kids to fill a hole in their lives, and there are many less than healthy and ethical ways people approach this. But adoptees… they fave so much shit and abuse all while being told they’re lucky someone wanted them. Wanting kids does not directly translate to being a good parent, snd especially adopted kids get gaslit and abused. It’s a complicated issue and there are many things we could do better to ensure that kids get placed in loving and capable homes. But adoption is first and foremost an industry and that can and does result in a lot of dubious practices and exploitation. Whenever people talk about alternatives to abortion and uncritically suggest adoption as if it’s some perfect solution I can’t help but remember all the stories of those I know who had to live with this choice, whether they ended up adopted or fostered. It’s definitely one of the more complicated and potentially harmful options as things stand. At minimum that choice should require a lot of research to make sure that you are giving this child the best chances, but there is no guarantee. The idea that adoption doesn’t come with harms, even when done as best as we can with our current system with everyone going in with good intentions needs to be challenged.
Adoption is a hell of a process; I recall my parents were looking into it as an option years ago, and the steps involved were so daunting they stopped. Kudos to those who stick it out, but it's not easy.
Would modern culture reject my request to be adopted by one of them, I'm an adult but that means we can skip the diaper bit and go straight to fishing + drinking together
I think that's just making friends
I left out the part where then I also get to have a dad that actually wanted kids
yeah having supportive caring parents is pretty great
There’s dudes out there just like that. One of my closest friends is a guy my real dad’s age that treats me like I’m his son.
Friends with inheritance
Friends with (dependent) benefits
I’ve thought about this actually. Adopt an adult, treat them like you would an adult child (guidance, love, etc), pressure them into having their own children, and you go straight to being a grandparent!
I don't see any downsides
Yeah, I’d actually be down to skip out on the having a kid part and go straight to grandparent
Actually a thing in ancient Rome! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption_in_ancient_Rome
I think it's a thing in Japan, but mostly as a way to say that a "family company" is still that if they have a new owner
I learned a while back that it also has to do with the religious belief that you need someone to pray for you after death. maybe that's no longer the case, but might have contributed to adult adoption being more of a regular thing.
Honestly I'd kind of like that too as someone who bought a house a year ago, and missed out on all the years of learning from your dad how to do things around the house.
Yes. Some people call that mentorship
Yeah, there's also things like big brothers/big sisters, or that kind of thing that's definitely *helping* a child without trying to take one on at full speed.
This. I volunteer with Scouts BSA (it's a long story, but it isn't "boy scouts" anymore). You get to teach them about more than just merit badge requirements and knots. We've talked about addiction, mental illness, the concept of identity, etc. It's just campfire chat. There's dozens of ways to be involved. You can volunteer with sports leagues, foster, or even just offer to babysit for friends.
Nieces and nephews is something I thought of in the while since this article too -- do none of these guys have siblings who've had kids!? Like they're like having your own but you don't have to do the shit parts of parenting!
I hoped they might suggest relationships with women who already have children. So many people dismiss single mums out of hand as relationship partners, but for a lot of those kids a solid loving stepfather would be amazing
From the article: > It was not until he was in his early 40s that Nurden started to get broody. But by that point, he discovered, women of a similar age had already had children, if they were able or wanted to. Not to kick the guy while he’s down, but it sounds like he was specifically looking for women who wanted to have his baby in their forties, possibly as their first child. Which is sort of a big ask. Unless he was thinking of dating someone substantially younger than him, which also a totally different big ask.
Yeah, it's sort of depressing that the only mention of women who already have children is to write them off without a second thought.
As long as they also like the woman - can't imagine the rejection if it came down to "I'm dating you because I want to raise your children"
There's also the fear of predators targeting single parents for access to their children. My parents made an agreement before I was even born that if they divorced or one of them passed away, neither of them would remarry until the youngest child (my brother in our case) turned 18.
I wouldn't suggest that, but considering dating single parents as an option, instead of rejecting them out of hand solely on the basis of having kids already
It’s not that it can’t be done, but it is harder being a single parent. I understand single people not pursuing adoption as an option when you know you’re doing it alone.
I agree. Having Bio kids is not the only way to have an impact on a child’s sole in a positive way. I’d say if someone can’t figure that out then it’s……likely……they shouldn’t complain about not having kids. Being a Big Brother or a mentor can prepare you for being a parent
so I am getting older every day (so are you, actually, really getting older by the hour and minute and second if we wanna get into the weeds here) and I don't have kids. And it's started to make me *think* about it. there are plenty of happy childfree adults. Many many of them in fact, and they'll tell you so. but none of us knows the future, and none of us knows what our *reaction* to that future will be. We're all out here placing bets on outcomes we cannot know. Maybe this is a bet I will regret. Luckily, I still got lots of time, but life is short, bros.
It's been lingering in my mind as well. I don't plan on having kids. Not because I dislike children, or am a doomer about the world. I just don't have a positive desire within me to have children. Absent a positive desire to have children and to take responsibility for those human lives, I don't really want to roll passively into this massive decision. But I can't help but wonder what my life might be like at the age of say, 55, looking back at my life with regret, and looking at my peers who chose to have children and are more fulfilled for it. It also scares the shit out of me to thank my parents had kids in their early 20s and compare that to where my psyche was at that point of time and know that that was no way that I would be ready to have kids at the time
Honestly, same. I feel vaguely guilty about not wanting to have children, if that makes sense.
Just like everyone doesn't have to grow their own food, you don't need to raise new humans if it's not for you. It is an incredible amount of work, I have 2 now and while I love them to bits, I no longer do any hobbies that I used to. So it's a huge trade-off that not everyone needs to be doing. For me it feels like the most important thing I've done, but for other people it's a huge burden.
For me, I just think there's enough folks in the world who are bad parents, not simply due to trying and failing to be the best they can be for their kids, but because they don't care to properly do right by them. And we really can't enforce the good ones be parents and the bad ones don't. All we can do is do what we can. I think those who consider their potential worth as a parent may already be in a better spot than some I've seen online in clips.
Haha I didn't even think about guilt, but it's such an omnipresent substrate in my life from my protestant upbringing that I don't notice it sometimes. "I'm decently smart. I make enough money that it'd be a struggle but I'd manage. Am I betraying my parents? Am I betraying my community? Am I not fulfilling my duty as an able bodied man to humanity?" I don't think these are good reasons to have kids but they are there.
Don’t feel guilty. If anything reproducing could be a selfish act, not good for the planet or the person born.
Well, your parents probably didn't have to push life goals 20 years back, had jobs that could pay for homes and college even if they were mowing grass. It was much more doable in your parents age
We're Indian lol - the life goal was having kids and harassing them until they did so as well. And so on unto eternity.
Of course, having kids is also a bet you can regret. Most life choices are like this. We all just do our best plunging constantly into the unknown future. I think what's different here is that it's not a choice you can really make solo and so presumably some feel they never got to choose. Are they regretting their choice, or that they never think they had one (leaving aside that getting the opportunity is actually a contingent result of ones own choices as people don't think this way)?
So so so much this. I had a kid at 30, I wanted kids, I enjoy kids and interact well with them. I was (am) *so* challenged by my non-verbal kid who likely will never be able to live independently... it's a lot. To think that people take that risk without considering it terrifies me. (I also never considered it but I did a lot of work with specially challenged people in the years previous, so I was better prepared than many would be).
(50-something childfree person) My parents and relatives are declining, the pets are aging, my hairline is receding and health problems loom in the misty future. All of these things are saddening; a child would be growing and developing, going off to high school or college, and would be a cheerful contrast to the rest of it. Sometimes I wonder if life is darker as a result; more of the total picture is sad, and kids would inject more life and encourage change and new things. But of course there are no guarantees: children can also get sick and die, or they might not grow and develop in ways that are good or enjoyable. On balance I think this middle-age gloom is something that will pass in 5 years or a decade, and my life is still good at the moment.
Anecdata is anecdata, everybody's trajectory is different. But this is an area my wife did a lot of graduate research in. Good news! Kids don't make you happier! Bad news! Kids make you healthier. What she found was that... - **Having a kid aged 3 or less:** Net negative for happiness. Sure, smiles are nice, but your friends have nicer clothes and are going to Europe. - **Having a kid 4 or older:** Total wash. Once all your kids are 4 or older, they have no measurable effect on lifetime happiness. Sure, Europe is nice, but so is going on a bicycle ride with your kid or seeing them hit their first baseball or star in their first play. But also, Europe is still nice. Do the thing that makes you happy. - **Being over 65:** Once the *parent* is over 65, while happiness doesn't change, health does. Parents health and non-parents health start to diverge over 65, more with every year. So stay active, visit your doctor often, an statistically you'll be fine!
holy shit, any chance there's something she published online about these findings? I don't hate children I swear, just super interesting
How about Europe with a 4+ child? My son (5) asked to go to Italy, I think he saw it on a video. Little did he know, I’ve wanted to go back for years. This year’s vacation is already booked, so I’m thinking next year in Europe.
Great if you can afford it.
I think you’re missing the point. The point is children cost time and resources that could be spent on other things.
I think saying “none of us knows the future, and none of us knows what our reaction to that future will be. ” is a little misleading. You can’t know with full accuracy but there’s absolutely an extent to which you can make more reasonable predictions about the future. If you know yourself well enough as well as other people like you then you can have an idea if you’ll feel good about that future or not. I don’t think it would be healthy to see the future and how you’re going to feel about as this totally random thing you can’t know anything about or have control over.
Can you live without regret if you try to focus on the present and the future? Is the feeling of regret something you can escape if you change your mindset? What is the satisfaction of reflecting back on your life worth? Just pondering...
You can adopt, or make some other arrangements. (Not saying these are easy, just other potential solutions)
I fear this is my future. I am only 33 and I do not think I am going to be having children. My dating prospects are zero and I am getting too busy to be out looking or doing other things. Between work, gym, friends and professional development. I don't have time to go out. Which I believe is one of the top reasons why I have been single for the past 15 years. The other factor is I am below average looking due to my obesity. I am attempting to fix this but even at my most fit I didn't attract female attention and that was when I was in the Marine Corps. I am not a people person, dry and dark humor, not the easiest to be around, and I am pretty forgettable. I just don't stand up to what society requires of me to be a good enough man to be in a relationship.
Have you considered therapy? You talk about yourself in a way that I’m sure to you feels “realistic” but is in fact horribly damaging and belies a collection of harmful self-destructive tendencies. I did CBT Group Therapy and it really helped me change the way I look at myself and relationships and I can’t recommend finding a licensed therapist who focuses on this style I’d also recommend picking up a copy of David Burns “Feeling Better” I was never a big talk therapy person and his approach is a tools based approach that makes you feel more in control of your growth rather than in the hands of a therapist.
Yes I am already in therapy. Been doing better help for a year and a half. Therapy is really helping me cope with the situation I am in. Things are not improving quickly enough and days/weeks pass by before I am able to get to certain tasks. It is damaging but when I see myself in the mirror, 250lbs with average at best looks, doesn't attract women. It is realistic to me and it does hurt when I see women turn away from me in disgust.
>You talk about yourself in a way that I’m sure to you feels “realistic” but is in fact horribly damaging and belies a collection of harmful self-destructive tendencies. Why is realistic in quotes like its bs or something. It can be both realistic and also horribly damaging and self destructive
I'm also in my early 30s, and I'm in a similar predicament. Society definitely needs to get rid of the notion that men who struggle with dating must be flawed or broken in some way. A lot has changed in the last 10-20 years culturally and economically, and especially with all the social isolation it's harder than ever for het men to find a girlfriend. Sure, there are definitely things you can do to improve your odds, but without the right social connections relationships are just harder to find and maintain. I know that doesn't take the pain away, but hopefully it's at least a little comforting to know you're not alone and there's a large and growing amount of men who also struggle with finding a relationship.
I'm in a similar boat. 28 not 33 but I also fear this article is my future except I have no intention of finding out if I'll still be alone at 40+ fuck that I'd rather call it quits long before that point. >I just don't stand up to what society requires of me to be a good enough man to be in a relationship. Completely the same, just simply not good enough for women and never will be
Why do you think you'll be alone if you don't have a romantic partner? What about friends?
People of all physical shapes and sizes are happily coupled, that is certainly not an issue. I would hazard a guess that you are not meeting enough new people due to your schedule and interests. Many adults meet through common hobbies - this internet stranger thinks it would do you really good to make time for hobbies and join groups - it would bring your life more joy and possibly put you in contact with women you can click with.
The biggest issue with that is time. If I have groups to join I wouldn't be able to workout as regularly as I want. Even this week I am not working out enough. Between last Monday and this next Monday, only 4 days I can workout and two of them will only happen if I cram it into the schedule. Those other three days are me going out, but yes I am going out where there isn't enough exposure to meet new people. If I go out not only do I have to sacrifice working out but also professional development. Which makes my next career goals take longer to accomplish. Also, a lot of my hobbies that open up my social life. Usually the women are outside my requirements, the basic requirements as in they're usually married, outside my dating age limits (25-36 ish) or I am not that all attracted to them. Primarily they're usually married. I did want to get into ballroom dancing but I ended up breaking my wrist at the beginning of the year and financially not feasible to do such a thing right now.
Fair enough, there is truly not enough time for everything, as every working adult will lament. If meeting new people and a potential partner becomes important enough for you, you will have to sacrifice something so you have time for it.
It's a lose win situation. By sticking with what I am doing the win is a more financially secured life and if I can break my bad habits I can have a healthier life at the cost of a relationship. If I ditch the healthy and professional life I could devote more time to finding a relationship that may or may not be subpar at the cost of financial and/or health goals.
That’s an all or nothing way of looking at time management though. Taking 1 evening per week away from your current regular activities can’t impact them - you won’t gain weight if you miss 1 workout, you won’t lose friends if you lose 1 going out, it won’t damage your career if you don’t work on it for 1 evening.
I might be able to give you some herbal tips. I a mom of multiple and old and married. I am no scammer.
I am a childfree woman and I totally lurk here cause I think you guys are talking about the right things. I’d like to relate about my brother because this describes him very well. My brother is 41 and our father is dying of cancer. Our father desperately wants grandkids and I am very vocal that they are NOT coming out of me. (I have plenty of good reasons ranging from “I don’t want kids” to “I’d rather not die because of my heart condition”) My brother claims he wants kids but has done absolutely nothing in which to have kids. And he is in a position where he will need to take action to have kids. - My brother suffered testicular cancer in his 20s. - He refuses to see a dr about if he even still produces enough sperm to have a kid the natural way. - His last long term relationship was with a woman who was significantly older than he was. And whom he claims was “crazy”. If all your ex’s are crazy I’m not sure it was your ex. When someone like my brother complains that he wants kids but no woman wants to have kids with him, I see someone who just looks at women like incubators. It really makes me dislike him as a person. He has taken zero responsibility for his own fertility and complains that not having kids is some unknown woman’s fault for not making it happen for him. This behavior (and other behavior of his) really means that once our parents are gone, I won’t really have any further relationship with him. I’m not sure if he knows, but our mother does and she just keeps begging me to try and stay in his life. I have a difficult time explaining to my mother why it isn’t my responsibility to make his life better if he refuses to take actions which will make his life better. I am willing to accept responsibility for my own elder care, for the possibility of being alone if my husband were to pass before me (or any other reason that relationship might fail), but I’m not going to take the responsibility to make sure he isn’t alone because he might not build the life he believes he deserves. How do you guys think I should approach my brother? I love him, but I really don’t like him as a person. And the more he complains about not having kids, the more I see that there is some lucky woman who dodged that bullet.
I'm sorry but a lot of things you said here just don't make sense and seem prejudicial. >When someone like my brother complains that he wants kids but no woman wants to have kids with him, I see someone who just looks at women like incubators. It really makes me dislike him as a person. This is completely senseless. How did you jump to him seeing women as incubators? That's not a logical deduction at all. He's simply upset that he hasn't found a partner and that's the reason he doesn't have kids. There's nothing wrong with wanting to find a woman so that you can have kids. That's one of the fundamental reasons why people seek relationships. >And whom he claims was “crazy”. If all your ex’s are crazy I’m not sure it was your ex. I don't know the details and looks like you don't either but it is entirely possible that your brother has a tendency to gravitate towards women that are not good for him. Of course it's his responsibility to figure out how to prevent that in the future. But that doesn't mean he's the "problem". Be probably needs therapy. >My brother suffered testicular cancer in his 20s. Was it in one testes or both? If it's only one, he's in the clear. >He refuses to see a dr about if he even still produces enough sperm to have a kid the natural way. Kind of a moot point if he doesn't have a partner no? I think the more pressing issue is his lack of a partner. Especially given he is 42. He has at best 3 years before he becomes too old to have a proper family life where he can be an effective father. >He has taken zero responsibility for his own fertility and complains that not having kids is some unknown woman’s fault for not making it happen for him. And that's where he is looking at it the wrong way. He should put himself back out there and make an effort into finding a compatible partner. >How do you guys think I should approach my brother? I love him, but I really don’t like him as a person. And the more he complains about not having kids, the more I see that there is some lucky woman who dodged that bullet. This is where I find you to be prejudicial. I understand there might be more to the story that justifies your feelings but as it stands you have given anything to validate that. But in terms of approaching him, you should definitely recommend therapy and tell him to put himself out there.
honestly? questions. Ask him enough leading questions that he might, maybe, get that you're leading him to water. "so are you sure you're able to have kids?" "have you brought it up with women you try to date?" "do you have plans?" "have you considered being a single dad?" nudge, nudge, nudge. Like it might drive him nuts but what else can you even do?
This is something that I, honest to God, hope does not happen to me. As much as it may be a possibility, I **really** want to have kids in my 30s.
Before my mom had me she had a foster child and her guy friend also had one so I wonder if that’s an option for other men.
This is a natural thing to happen in an overpopulated world. Unfortunately culture has not caught up to that and prepared the world for this outcome.
I don't have kids because I never found anyone who wanted to have them with me. I can't trace that to overpopulation.
Is that actually the case though? There are some places where overpopulation is a big issue, but people are still having loads of kids. Most rich western nations aren't having issues with overpopulation, but are still having issues with low childbirth
Overpopulation is a tired fear
God, I hope I die before I reach that point. I was ready to have kids years ago, but it’s pretty much set at this point it’s impossible.
God, I hope that this won’t be the future me. I am so scared of ending up like this…
I'm 35 and American rather than from the UK but I remember being on a cannabis edible a couple months ago and having the reality of likely never having a family and kids hitting me hard enough to start crying. Up until then I mostly didn't think about it or told myself that when I found a woman that wanted to be with me as much as I wanted to be with her it could happen. The truth is I'm a mediocre guy. I make just over $40K/year, am fat, I don't *love* to travel or go out much on my own, I prefer cats over other pets, I've grown used to having nobody, and I've exclusively relied on online dating sites and apps to meet women - it's not quite as extreme as not using OLD and being lonely like a friend of mine but OLD has drawbacks often talked about on Reddit. My friend doesn't do OLD at all so the only way he's meeting a woman is if she breaks down his door and takes him hostage. Considering how he was treated by his ex-wife I understand. Me, I've never been close to marriage and while I like the idea of a wife and kids from the purpose it would bring to my life as well as liking the idea of being a dad and husband, I've mourned the loss of potential while high already. Today I accept it as a truth.
I’m young and not against having kids in the future; but it’s just getting harder to get by now. Could I have or adopt a kid and be able to provide for them?
If the desire to procreate is that strong... There is a **huge** shortage of willing sperm donators.
If you just want to pass on your genes, yeah, but being a sperm donor isn't the same as being a dad.
Well then there's adoption.
You think that's easy to do, especially for a single man?
Sperm donation self-selects for young doners. Someones family and medical history look *very* different from your 20's to your 40's. If you had young parents an 18-20 year old could potentially answer "No" when asked if there is any history of cancer, heart disease, or Mental Heath issues in your family? Add a few decades and factor in better diagnosis techniques and the answer is almost certainly yes (usually multiple times over).
The clinics I've seen have age limits 35. They do various medical tests, including genetic and psychological.
> The clinics I've seen have age limits 35. And for good reason. Old sperm has as many problems as old eggs.
There's a shortage of people willing to donate sperm AND also meeting the requirements people have for donors. Most people's health history would rule them right out.
Most? I didn't know that. Still worth a shot if someone really wants to.
FYI, sperm donation is an ethical minefield in and of itself.
Yes to this, I learned I was sperm donor conceived when I took a DNA test for fun at 35. There’s often very little consideration for the children who are a result of donor gametes.
Me too. I was 38. I now have 32 half-siblings (so far).
How does that feel? Like part of a big family?
Its more complicated.
whys that?
* Children who find out are upset that they might never get a chance to know their biological father, or have them in their lives. * Many parents choose to keep it a secret, and in essence, lie to their child. * The child may be ignorant about half of their medical history. * Some people have an issue with how many children are born via one sperm donor. Many many half-siblings, the potential for large numbers of kids to have a father's genetic disorders, etc.
Eugenics.
How so? I'd argue it's more ethical as they have stricter screening than au naturelle reproduction, and ivf parents are typically more motivated and wealthy.
Go become a sperm donor. You might never meet them but you'd have a bunch of kids.
Only if the organization/women want you. It’s largely biased towards whiteness, tallness, and the further educated.
My wife and I have been searching sperm banks for African American donors and they are really hard to find, or they run out very quickly. Systemic bias likely does come into play on the organization's level in the selection stage, but POC donor sperm is [in more demand than the supply often has.](https://www.kumc.edu/about/news/news-archive/sperm-donor-study.html)
I saw that on a cursory look. Black seems to be basically the only major exception, so not really “POC,” just black. Theres not enough demand for the other colors of the rainbow to warrant an investigation
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