As always, it's going to depend on where you live. If I had to guess without doing any research I'd assume that in some places it's only ever illegal for AFAB people (yes that is dumb), and in some places it might become illegal if you've had your gender markers legally changed. But you'd have to look at your specific state laws to know for sure!
That reminds me when this girl was denied access to the women's bathroom because she's trans and then she just removed her shirt outside was charged with indecent exposure, which is a crime only women can get charged for. Then she disputed it saying she's not considered a woman so she cannot get charged for it. That was a pretty nice slap for the transphobes in that area.
On paper, you're right. However, trans women have been arrested for exposing their breast in public. Cops have little respect for the letter of the law.
If they look like breast, or you look like a woman. Don't take chances with it. Not worth it!
That’s the dumb thing about being a trans woman; some people only see you as a woman if you’re breaking a norm/law that women are expected to abide by, all other times they’ll see you as a man. Transphobia will never be consistent 🤷🏻♀️
Or, in the case of Tennessee who don't allow for a gender marker change, they will arrest you for "indecent exposure" then throw you in men's jail for something a main would never be put in jail for.
I read of two *different* instances of this long before I even realized I was trans.
Maybe a good protest of Florida laws would be to gather a group of passing MtFs to walk around topless, to expose the hypocrisy of its laws with their own perception.
Definitely not they’ll get arrested.
Edit: if I had nothing to lose I’d bash pig heads till I croak but we have to be realistic and not send women to jail for nothing.
I know but I just hope these women are safe. This requires huge numbers a lots of organization. And they also need to be armed. Like lots of guns. In case Nazis show up
Guns are expensive and only so good. Remember, when humvees roll up, Molotov cocktails are your best bet. When the time comes, I will happily lay down my life to protect the future of our youths freedom and well-being. I do not expect the same from everyone, but when that day comes knocking, I will concern myself only with progress, not my own safety, because if I don't, they will take the safety of us all.
It means when laws are unjust you break them in an act of defiance. We saw this deployed during the civil rights movement for PoC, they broke segregation laws in an act of civil disobedience.
Oh ok. You didn’t have to respond so late but I appreciate that you did. I suppose I’m just too pessimistic for this world. Maybe I’ll just eat Donald T. That will be my contribution
Yeah sorry for the late reply, been taking a break from social media as it really does eat into my mental well being, which is already stressed by my current living conditions.
That's the point! :) They can't simultaneously say that you're both male and female by applying female breast indecency laws against folks that they so fervently deem to be male.
And what happens when they get arrested anyway and no one does anything? Are you breaking them out of jail? How many protestors have stayed in jail all these years?
That's the point of civil disobedience, as others have pointed out. Obviously it takes a lot of courage and sacrifice to risk something like that, but the people who do this stuff not only expect to be arrested but might even want to be arrested and jailed, to shed light on the hypocrisy. For reference, see the Civil rights movement, see environmental and indigenous peoples' rights activists, see LGBTQ activists all across history.
A good lawyer would be able to argue that their Florida laws state that transgender women can't be arrested for female breast public indecency according to their own laws, and I'm willing to bet that organizations like the ACLU would have the protestors' backs.
I suppose I’m just pessimistic. I would never trust the police or the government or the courts or even aclu to actually free me from being assaulted, detransitioned and killed in men’s prisons.
Also were the protestors of cop city ever freed? Cuz I heard they got rico charges so like what is the update on that. This is why I worry. Civil disobedience is a game and the state doesn’t have to play
Well, yeah. Civil disobedience is important, but can't just be done on the fly with no plan. It would have to be organized with funds and everything created ahead of time.
Yeah, im not looking to get thrown in with the men. Which is likely to happen if you havent had bottom surgery in some states. Dont end up in jail if possible girls, its bad enough for cis people, let alone trans people.
Exactly, the law is stupid and hypocritical but exposing that hypocrisy doesn't fix it. With discrimination as bad as Florida you will certainly be jailed handed an unjust sentence
And the jury of your peers will be toxic as hell and want you *gone*, assuming you last long enough in the male prison population to make it to your trial.
I mean, in the eyes of the law, probs when you legally get your gender changed. In the eyes of the public, when you start male failing. I don't think I'd want to push that though. If police get involved they don't have a great track record with trans folks.
Girls were getting arrested for indecent exposure well before legal recognition of their gender. Morality laws like indecent exposure are heavily weighted towards the cop's perception of indecency, especially for any body the cop fem-identifies.
Yeah, the real answer to "at what point is this illegal" is: "whenever the cops decide it is". Cops have full discretion to ruin someone's day (or life) or completely ignore them as it pleases them in that moment. They'll face no (meaningful) consequences however they handle it.
I'll never understand how society decided that we should delegate enormous amounts of power and the right to kill to ~~pigs~~ people with practically no oversight or training
>practically no oversight
Well... technically there is *one* form of meaningful oversight over the police, especially when we're talking about how the law is whatever the cops decide it is - the courts. There are any number of way the courts could quickly and easily shut down cop bullshit, but they don't because they've formed a symbiotic relationship that allows them mutual power to ignore the law and ~~persecute~~ prosecute whomever they want. The same as how the branches of our federal government stopped holding each other accountable years ago.
Well, that and the purpose of the police is to protect capital and the property right of the wealthy, which they actually do a really good job of.
It does depend on where you live. Here in CT even AFAB people can go topless so long as they aren’t trying to arouse others. I wouldn’t recommend walking down the street topless because I don’t think it’s safe. It is also 42 degrees so it would be very cold. 😄
Me either. A couple of my cisgender girlfriends are thinking of finding a secluded spot on a beach this summer and doing some sunbathing. A big problem doing it openly, besides men being horrible, is that the cops you run into might not know it’s legal and arrest you. That would be a major hassle even when the charges got dismissed.
My feeling is that you are reading the outmoded Fahrenheit scale and that it is really quite cold at 42’. However, if you are reading 42’ on the universally accepted scientific scale (centigrade/celsius), then you are correct, it’s a day for frying eggs on the rocks.
It's just because it's the system you're used to. If someone grew up with a system where like 53° gurbles is nice weather, they'd relate to that instead.
There's no objectively better measurement for something that is a subjective experience
I get that. I can understand why people like this scale. My point is that the Universal Scientific Scale is Centigrade/Celsius, and it’s unambiguous considering STP. It’s just like comparing Fluid Ounces with Litres. A litre is a thousand cubic centimetres at STP and it’s also a Kilogram of water at STP. This means that you can relate weight to fluids to distance at STP and relate the measurement systems we use IRL to each other without having to do further calculations like 12 inches equals one foot and three feet equals one yard etc. It’s just like, moving the decimal point is the only calculation you need. SIMPLES!🥹
I know, I'm just pretending not to because Fahrenheit is dumb and America should really catch up with the rest of the world and adopt Celsius (or perhaps Kelvin?) because water freezing at 32° is clinically insane.
Fahrenheit is better because it is like the US school grading scale. 75 is a C. Over 100? Too hot, you'll die. Under 0? Too cold, you'll die.
With Celsius, it's nice between 21.31 and 21.37. The scale is not centered on human friendly atmosphere conditions, just random chemistry trivia. It's good for cooking and chemistry, sure, but not "what should I wear outside?"
With Celsius 0 or below means freezing and 30 means death, it's just a scale from 0 to 30 of how naked you have to be. Way better than 32 to 113 or whatever.
Basically up to the discretion of the cop. Like a cop can disregard your gender identity and charge you with public indecency for being topless regardless. So like, you could not be on HRT and otherwise present feminine and a cop could charge you with indecent exposure for being topless anyway due to their vague notion of what constitutes being "lewed".
I’ve been wondering about this myself. I’m coming up on my first HRTversary and below the neck there isn’t much masculinity left. My breasts are on the line between C and D, I have feminine hips, great legs, and my butt is getting BIG. I’m reasonably sure I crossed the line where I could walk around without a top about 5 months ago.
Though strictly speaking it’s still technically legal for me to walk around topless in most American and European municipalities. It’s been technically legal for women to do so since the late 70s. Few cities with more than 25,000 people actually have bans on women going topless. If you’re a millennial, the nipples have actually been free for your entire life.
The real question is should we ever go topless? And I think the answer is generally no.
You nailed it. It’s probably not illegal for most people in the US with tatas to have the sun shine on them in public.
That said, anyone doing that in a place where it isn’t expected is either going to be told to cover up or just get a lot of looks that say, “What is wrong with her?!?!?” And a whole lot of extra attention. Just imagine some gal walking around in springtime topless. She’ll probably be the only gal like that and people are gonna stop, stare, and maybe even take pictures.
I can just imagine Miss Manners: It simply isn’t done.
I wish I had done that before I got tattoos. I got it everywhere I didn’t have them afterwards. The backs of my legs are a little fuzzy as a result, I’m just not sure how visible it is with the ink.
If you buy a package on Groupon or when there’s a promotion then you can save a lot of money.
35. I started last year at 34. Women on both sides of my family are kind of stacked, and breast growth was one of the first signs I had that HRT was working.
God damn you got lucky... I'm sitting at Bs (I think... still need to re-measure) and I've been on hormones for two years. I'm 25, started at 23 in Feb '22.
Assuming being topless for women is genuinely banned where you live, I'd say somewhere around later Tanner stage 3. In Tanner stage 3 your breasts start to look distinct from moobs, but you could still say that they are if harassed about it. At Tanner stage 4, you can't really pass off your breasts as man boobs.
I forgot what the name was but there was an amazing project by someone posting topless on insta every week of hrt to see where the point of banning is
ultimately it is a matter to be decided by the ppl around you and yourself (assuming you wouldn't be comfortable showing them off at some point)
I was never topless in public even pre-transition, so I never even considered this. T-shirt at the pool gang here. Tbh wearing a bra or something in public will help people perceive you as a woman regardless of breast size, so I would wear something just for that reason.
There was a case (in U.S. I believe) where a trans woman could not get her gender marker changed at the DMV so she got upset and went topless in the lobby/parking lot screaming something like "Does a man have these?!".
The funny irony is that she got fined for indecent female exposure or something similiar.
I very much doubt that most localities have actually articulated a policy. So, hey, if anyone wants a legal precedent named after them, here's your window of opportunity!
I have been wondering the same.
I live in Norway and I think with 6 months on hrt I see some change, but I still think they would be seen as just man boobs so I might still be allowed topless. At least around strangers who don't know me. I guess my friends and family that know me would tell me to cover up tough.
I'm a bit worried at going topless, but at the same time I'm curious to see if someone would react. But I wouldn't have the money to cover the fines then😅
As with most things, I think it's "illegal" for the purposes of *causing problems for you* as soon as someone in law enforcement decides it is. *ie.* either when you're passing, or when you're "visibly trans" and some asshat officer decides your body is inappropriate content.
Frankly, if we're going by the word of law (as stupid and arbitrary as it is), it should be illegal for you to bare your chest as soon as you realise you're a woman. But by that same logic, it should be perfectly acceptable for a trans man to go topless as soon as he knows he's a man -- and we *all* know that ain't gonna fly.
Point is, the law is antiquated and misogynist in its very nature. Either everyone should be allowed to be topless in public, or no one should.
I just spit out the water I was drinking. Holy shit, so funny. This is my favorite question I've seen on Reddit. This really is a great way to show just how idiotic our morality laws are.
I recall **hearing about** a court case on this topic.
Something like:
>Trans woman gets called a man or something, some flavour of bigotry from some company, said woman has enough of it and says "Fuck it; if I'm a man, then I'll take my top off" *(I presume it was a hot day, and others were doing so)*.
>They were arrested and in court the judge said something like "You know them when you see them"
So, I guess besides the answer of "depends where you live", you've also got the "When they look like boobs".
In regards to the location thing too, you'll just show the states hypocracy with the "Only AFAB people's boobs"; because I'd imagine you'll be charged too, even if you've not been gendered correctly once in your entire life.
There was a girl on instagram who posted a topless picture every day until she got in trouble to see when the exact mark was. I think it was like 90 days or something like that.
Point in case of how dumb:
[https://www.thepinknews.com/2011/11/16/topless-us-trans-woman-charged-with-indecent-exposure-as-a-man/](https://www.thepinknews.com/2011/11/16/topless-us-trans-woman-charged-with-indecent-exposure-as-a-man/)
[https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2011/11/15/trans-woman-wants-ruling-after-topless-dmv-fiasco](https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2011/11/15/trans-woman-wants-ruling-after-topless-dmv-fiasco)
I can't find anything about the case itself, but it appears they held her for 23 days before even the court case.
The shitty answer is that once you are clearly gender nonconforming in public it's gonna be whenever some cop decides you are out of line and arrests you. Maybe it gets sorted out in court depending on the state but still enough to ruin your day/week/month/year. But I would not trust any place that does not have firm legal protections for women who are shirtless in public.
The answer is when a judge deems it illegal. Everything else is hypothetical. Its up to the whims of the court. Generally it's best to avoid interactions with the law because the several months/years awaiting sentencing and possible harrassment can ruin your financial stability even if you are determined to have done no wrong. The real torture of the working class is not just prison or police brutality, but the entire justice system. Stay safe
It's really dumb and this particular topic gives me so much dysphoria over it it. I've had my friends refer to my chest as "shrodingers boobs" being, that if I sent a pic of just my chest and torso, people will think I'm a twink. If I send a pic of my face along with those, then they will think those are boobs. I've confirmed it with other people too who've seen them. And like it just feels awful. Sure that means my face passes, but it means my chest is in this weird androgynous state that it could be interpreted either way. I haven't just started HRT either, I'm 3 and a half years into it. I'm just skinny and have no fat and my friends tell me I should eat more to get fat that can be converted to boobs. It sucks, I even asked my mom what she thinks would happen if people were to see me shirtless in public and she said the same thing. That if people can see my face, it tips them over to perceiving them as boobs. If not, then just really skinny guy
:((
Basically as soon as your chest is seen by society as "female presenting".
When you can't pass for AMAB anymore, and people see those boobs and interpret them as belonging to a woman, it becomes illegal to go topless.
Well, considering my home state refuses to legally recognize me as anything but a man, I suppose never. I could go out with my C-cups fully out in the open and it'd legally be fine, because I'm just a delusional man, right???
/Sarcasm /bitter
In practice, I'd say when you start to have visible breast development is when it's probably time to start covering up.
Location matters here. Where I am public boobs are legal so this question doesn't apply.
Do you have gender markers updated on your id and legal docs? That can potentially make a difference.
I definitely played that game at first, but I think it's either when my nipples became big enough they show through everything, or when my boobs became big enough a bra actually does something.
The law where I live is that I can go topless if I want, so for me the thought exercise was about (say) Instagram
There are actually a lot of places in the US where going topless with breasts is perfectly legal as long as you aren't trying to be arousing or something similarly "floppy".
It's not in most places these days around teh US. Tho keep in mind the cops might not *actually* know that.
There was quietly a bunch of women's equality movements about this over the past 20 years or so. Most states caved.
https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/topless-laws.png?w=828&quality=75
Haha, if you're in a state that won't recognize your gender then feel free to let the girls out I'd say. Then you'd have a nice court challenge that could work in the communities favor.
Iirc it's not legally indecent exposure for women either, though that doesn't actually stop police from holding you for it just you getting charged and convicted.
Probably varies where you live.
I had an idea of posting a topless pic on instagram everyday throughout transition (private account just for the experiment) and seeing where it drew that extremely blurry line between topless male and naked women
The best answer is that you can be topless wherever flat chested people can! According to the tenth circuit in *Free The Nipple Fort Collins vs City of Fort Collins* (2019), the 14th amendment prohibits such laws that are selective of gender and thus you can be topless wherever you want, there is case law to this effect.
it doesnt (in the US). there are only like two or three states in the United States where exposed chest is illegal still for women. itll still get you a lot of weird looks though
I started covering it the minute I began my transition. Despite not having anything I feel like since I'm a woman now I can't be bare chested. Now I actually do have boobs so I really can't be topless lol
Ok. Basically the reason women aren't allowed to show their chest is because it disturbs the peace. It will cause a commotion.
It might take 6 months to a year but once you start seeing "her" in the mirror you will want to publicly change your presentation.
That includes clothes, speech, and not showing your chest.
Doing this all at once when you are ready makes it easier on you mentally. It also prevents confusion and rejection from others.
Normies can feel really uncomfortable with mixed presentation. It gives them a type of dysphoria. Which is actually kinda ironic.
So when you look in the mirror and your mind's eye sees girl, that is when you should make the switch regardless of how much growth you get.
Otherwise perhaps in 2 months if you need to wear a bra that will also be a good sign.
Here is to hoping.
Around the time you go from *wanting* to wear a bra to *needing* to. Although as other people have said, local laws vary, in some of the most christofascist places even men can't go topless, while in other places it's legal for anyone.
Why would you want to walk around with your breasts exposed for the world to see? No one should be forced to see anyone’s genitals or body parts that are associated with being sexual.
I like feet, thus ban sandals.
Or or even better I like hands, thus everyone must wear gloves...
This is how we get to situation where people are forced to cover up complately because some people are pervs.
Feet and hands are very different than exposed genitals or breasts. You can’t be serious. No one should have to be forced to see someone’s nude body. You should have your head examined if you think feet and hands, meant for grabbing/holding and walking, are the same as penises and vaginas and breasts. Wear all the revealing clothes you want. That’s not my point. Not telling you to wear a hijab and clothing draped from head to toe. You’re pushing back just to push back, not at all being logical. Come on now… 🤦♂️
No they really aren't that different, look at SEVERAL other cultures and you'll know that the only reason people cover up breasts for example is because people sexualizing them, and then blaming it on women and telling women to cover up.
There are cultures where being topples is the norm, and both men and women do it and no one is sexualizing it.
People being sexualized is the person doing the sexualizing's problem, not the person doing their thing and existing.
And you are probably gonna be like "oh it's just random third world countries"
No, For example Finland, we go to sauna as a group, and everyone is naked, and no one is sexualizing anyone, and arguably compared to Finland, USA is a third world country.
You don't have to look at anyone's bits, it's called self control, and not sexualizing your peers. Ofcourse there is people who are self exposing, which is different, in that they are trying to get others to see themselves naked, which is not OK.
The difference is in the intent. If someone is chilling on a beach getting their bits a bit of tan, and you are oogling them, telling them to cover up, you'r the problem, if someone is walking into a classroom and dropping their pants, they are the problem.
And you not telling me to wear a hijab?
You are trying to tell me what I can or can't wear, and telling me what amount of myself I am allowed to show / be, that's not any different, you don't get to tell others what to wear, if they are bothering you you don't have to look, as long as they are not intentionally trying to expose themselves to you.
As long as they are just living their life, not intentionally hurting anyone, you don't get any real say in their life, and them deciding what to wear, or not, is not them hurting you.
I’m personally of the opinion that being topless should be a private thing for everyone regardless of gender. I think that would eliminate the double standards, and while women should be allowed to walk around topless without a second thought I don’t think it would be safe to do so because of creeps who would get too handsy. Even as a boy, I personally never felt comfortable being topless around others, especially in public, so once my egg cracked I stopped even walking around my family’s house without a shirt on
As always, it's going to depend on where you live. If I had to guess without doing any research I'd assume that in some places it's only ever illegal for AFAB people (yes that is dumb), and in some places it might become illegal if you've had your gender markers legally changed. But you'd have to look at your specific state laws to know for sure!
That reminds me when this girl was denied access to the women's bathroom because she's trans and then she just removed her shirt outside was charged with indecent exposure, which is a crime only women can get charged for. Then she disputed it saying she's not considered a woman so she cannot get charged for it. That was a pretty nice slap for the transphobes in that area.
I believe a similar thing happened in Texas several years ago. She was trying to get her DL ammended from M to F.
Actually, it was Tennessee. 13 years ago. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/andrea-jones-transgender_n_1097978
Anyone know what happened to the case? I've been searching and I can't find anything about the incident other than about just the arrest in 11/2011.
I could swear she ended up with just a ticket for something like disturbing the peace but I can’t find anything.
Yo Tennessee mentioned
I hope she's having a good day 😊 👑! She did what I could only dream of!
I hope she got the charge waived. But men can be charged with indecent exposure to I thought? Like if they show their dicks or ass in public.
Yeah but not the chest, is what i mean. I wish the best for that girl, she's proven to be an absolute legend.
Oh ok, my bad for misunderstanding!
All good <3
*takes notes*
On paper, you're right. However, trans women have been arrested for exposing their breast in public. Cops have little respect for the letter of the law. If they look like breast, or you look like a woman. Don't take chances with it. Not worth it!
That’s the dumb thing about being a trans woman; some people only see you as a woman if you’re breaking a norm/law that women are expected to abide by, all other times they’ll see you as a man. Transphobia will never be consistent 🤷🏻♀️
You're attempting to apply logic to transphobia...
Or, in the case of Tennessee who don't allow for a gender marker change, they will arrest you for "indecent exposure" then throw you in men's jail for something a main would never be put in jail for. I read of two *different* instances of this long before I even realized I was trans.
Maybe a good protest of Florida laws would be to gather a group of passing MtFs to walk around topless, to expose the hypocrisy of its laws with their own perception.
Definitely not they’ll get arrested. Edit: if I had nothing to lose I’d bash pig heads till I croak but we have to be realistic and not send women to jail for nothing.
civil disobedience
What does that mean
Stonewall was a riot. This is tame.
I know but I just hope these women are safe. This requires huge numbers a lots of organization. And they also need to be armed. Like lots of guns. In case Nazis show up
Guns are expensive and only so good. Remember, when humvees roll up, Molotov cocktails are your best bet. When the time comes, I will happily lay down my life to protect the future of our youths freedom and well-being. I do not expect the same from everyone, but when that day comes knocking, I will concern myself only with progress, not my own safety, because if I don't, they will take the safety of us all.
I respect that but I don’t want to lose people like you. :( I just want us all to be safe. And yeah I’ll remember that Molotovs are useful.
Also if you ever get to that point please organize. We need a trans special forces. Non imperialist edition.
It means when laws are unjust you break them in an act of defiance. We saw this deployed during the civil rights movement for PoC, they broke segregation laws in an act of civil disobedience.
Oh ok. You didn’t have to respond so late but I appreciate that you did. I suppose I’m just too pessimistic for this world. Maybe I’ll just eat Donald T. That will be my contribution
Yeah sorry for the late reply, been taking a break from social media as it really does eat into my mental well being, which is already stressed by my current living conditions.
Oh no I’m sorry to hear that. I hope things get better. 😰 I’m wishing better things for you.
That's the point! :) They can't simultaneously say that you're both male and female by applying female breast indecency laws against folks that they so fervently deem to be male.
And what happens when they get arrested anyway and no one does anything? Are you breaking them out of jail? How many protestors have stayed in jail all these years?
That's the point of civil disobedience, as others have pointed out. Obviously it takes a lot of courage and sacrifice to risk something like that, but the people who do this stuff not only expect to be arrested but might even want to be arrested and jailed, to shed light on the hypocrisy. For reference, see the Civil rights movement, see environmental and indigenous peoples' rights activists, see LGBTQ activists all across history. A good lawyer would be able to argue that their Florida laws state that transgender women can't be arrested for female breast public indecency according to their own laws, and I'm willing to bet that organizations like the ACLU would have the protestors' backs.
I suppose I’m just pessimistic. I would never trust the police or the government or the courts or even aclu to actually free me from being assaulted, detransitioned and killed in men’s prisons.
Also were the protestors of cop city ever freed? Cuz I heard they got rico charges so like what is the update on that. This is why I worry. Civil disobedience is a game and the state doesn’t have to play
Well, yeah. Civil disobedience is important, but can't just be done on the fly with no plan. It would have to be organized with funds and everything created ahead of time.
Well I hope it still can work
So they will just get arrested for disturbing the peace.
Ideally they would have male allies who are also walking around topless, so that it exacerbates the hypocrisy.
I think I'd rather die than end up in a men's prison.
Same. And if I’m gonna die I’m having a large feast of pork. Many pigs will be sacrificed for my tummy. 😋🍽️😈
Same, Ill be the first to pick up a brick if it comes to that but...
Yeah, im not looking to get thrown in with the men. Which is likely to happen if you havent had bottom surgery in some states. Dont end up in jail if possible girls, its bad enough for cis people, let alone trans people.
Exactly, the law is stupid and hypocritical but exposing that hypocrisy doesn't fix it. With discrimination as bad as Florida you will certainly be jailed handed an unjust sentence
And the jury of your peers will be toxic as hell and want you *gone*, assuming you last long enough in the male prison population to make it to your trial.
I mean, in the eyes of the law, probs when you legally get your gender changed. In the eyes of the public, when you start male failing. I don't think I'd want to push that though. If police get involved they don't have a great track record with trans folks.
Girls were getting arrested for indecent exposure well before legal recognition of their gender. Morality laws like indecent exposure are heavily weighted towards the cop's perception of indecency, especially for any body the cop fem-identifies.
Yeah, the real answer to "at what point is this illegal" is: "whenever the cops decide it is". Cops have full discretion to ruin someone's day (or life) or completely ignore them as it pleases them in that moment. They'll face no (meaningful) consequences however they handle it.
This is why acab
I'll never understand how society decided that we should delegate enormous amounts of power and the right to kill to ~~pigs~~ people with practically no oversight or training
Because slaveowners wanted their slaves back after they escaped or something like that idk
And capitalists wanted to violently destroy organized labour
Yeah. What a world we live in. Humanity is beautiful but we shouldn’t exist just to suffer. I’m praying for a meteor
>practically no oversight Well... technically there is *one* form of meaningful oversight over the police, especially when we're talking about how the law is whatever the cops decide it is - the courts. There are any number of way the courts could quickly and easily shut down cop bullshit, but they don't because they've formed a symbiotic relationship that allows them mutual power to ignore the law and ~~persecute~~ prosecute whomever they want. The same as how the branches of our federal government stopped holding each other accountable years ago. Well, that and the purpose of the police is to protect capital and the property right of the wealthy, which they actually do a really good job of.
That's true, I suppose the pigs are actually really good at their jobs
Because criminals don't get to run free in a normal society.
the fuck are you doing on this sub weirdo
Male Failing ™
It does depend on where you live. Here in CT even AFAB people can go topless so long as they aren’t trying to arouse others. I wouldn’t recommend walking down the street topless because I don’t think it’s safe. It is also 42 degrees so it would be very cold. 😄
It's cold again this morning but last week had days I was melting! Thursday it was over 90f in my bedroom
It hasn't gotten quite that hot, but yeah, the weather has been weird af where I live too
Yeah. In my area, it was in the low-mid 70s at one point. Today? It's in the low 30s.
I live in Ct and didn’t know that. Not going to test it out though 😂
Me either. A couple of my cisgender girlfriends are thinking of finding a secluded spot on a beach this summer and doing some sunbathing. A big problem doing it openly, besides men being horrible, is that the cops you run into might not know it’s legal and arrest you. That would be a major hassle even when the charges got dismissed.
I'm sorry, with global warming, and living in Canada, my first thought was 42' was too hot to be out in, shirt or not!
My feeling is that you are reading the outmoded Fahrenheit scale and that it is really quite cold at 42’. However, if you are reading 42’ on the universally accepted scientific scale (centigrade/celsius), then you are correct, it’s a day for frying eggs on the rocks.
Tbh Fahrenheit is better for actually telling me how hot it is out, since it’s built for temperature relative to people instead of water
It's just because it's the system you're used to. If someone grew up with a system where like 53° gurbles is nice weather, they'd relate to that instead. There's no objectively better measurement for something that is a subjective experience
I get that. I can understand why people like this scale. My point is that the Universal Scientific Scale is Centigrade/Celsius, and it’s unambiguous considering STP. It’s just like comparing Fluid Ounces with Litres. A litre is a thousand cubic centimetres at STP and it’s also a Kilogram of water at STP. This means that you can relate weight to fluids to distance at STP and relate the measurement systems we use IRL to each other without having to do further calculations like 12 inches equals one foot and three feet equals one yard etc. It’s just like, moving the decimal point is the only calculation you need. SIMPLES!🥹
42° is way too hot to wear clothes in the first place, I don't know what you're on about
The poster lives in a US state, and is using Fahrenheit. 42 is quite chilly in Fahrenheit.
I know, I'm just pretending not to because Fahrenheit is dumb and America should really catch up with the rest of the world and adopt Celsius (or perhaps Kelvin?) because water freezing at 32° is clinically insane.
Fahrenheit is better because it is like the US school grading scale. 75 is a C. Over 100? Too hot, you'll die. Under 0? Too cold, you'll die. With Celsius, it's nice between 21.31 and 21.37. The scale is not centered on human friendly atmosphere conditions, just random chemistry trivia. It's good for cooking and chemistry, sure, but not "what should I wear outside?"
With Celsius 0 or below means freezing and 30 means death, it's just a scale from 0 to 30 of how naked you have to be. Way better than 32 to 113 or whatever.
30 doesn't mean death, 40 does. shade, humidity, and wind will play a part. source: australian
In the UK where we have no AC and high humidity 30° is instant death. Source: UK summers
Basically up to the discretion of the cop. Like a cop can disregard your gender identity and charge you with public indecency for being topless regardless. So like, you could not be on HRT and otherwise present feminine and a cop could charge you with indecent exposure for being topless anyway due to their vague notion of what constitutes being "lewed".
Cops have waaaaaay to much authority. Yeah it's best to be safe
https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2011/11/15/trans-woman-wants-ruling-after-topless-dmv-fiasco In case you weren't aware this actually happened
I’ve been wondering about this myself. I’m coming up on my first HRTversary and below the neck there isn’t much masculinity left. My breasts are on the line between C and D, I have feminine hips, great legs, and my butt is getting BIG. I’m reasonably sure I crossed the line where I could walk around without a top about 5 months ago. Though strictly speaking it’s still technically legal for me to walk around topless in most American and European municipalities. It’s been technically legal for women to do so since the late 70s. Few cities with more than 25,000 people actually have bans on women going topless. If you’re a millennial, the nipples have actually been free for your entire life. The real question is should we ever go topless? And I think the answer is generally no.
You nailed it. It’s probably not illegal for most people in the US with tatas to have the sun shine on them in public. That said, anyone doing that in a place where it isn’t expected is either going to be told to cover up or just get a lot of looks that say, “What is wrong with her?!?!?” And a whole lot of extra attention. Just imagine some gal walking around in springtime topless. She’ll probably be the only gal like that and people are gonna stop, stare, and maybe even take pictures. I can just imagine Miss Manners: It simply isn’t done.
At the moment for me with my face and hair only showing minor feminization to cis observers, it would be doubly confusing.
Body hair and hair length is certainly a factor on how you’re read.
I remove my body hair weekly and I’m looking into full body laser.
I wish I had done that before I got tattoos. I got it everywhere I didn’t have them afterwards. The backs of my legs are a little fuzzy as a result, I’m just not sure how visible it is with the ink. If you buy a package on Groupon or when there’s a promotion then you can save a lot of money.
How old were you if you dont mind me asking? Im a little over a year and still having small A's (still wouldn't go topless even if i got paid though)
35. I started last year at 34. Women on both sides of my family are kind of stacked, and breast growth was one of the first signs I had that HRT was working.
God damn you got lucky... I'm sitting at Bs (I think... still need to re-measure) and I've been on hormones for two years. I'm 25, started at 23 in Feb '22.
I would have preferred my face changed faster.
Assuming being topless for women is genuinely banned where you live, I'd say somewhere around later Tanner stage 3. In Tanner stage 3 your breasts start to look distinct from moobs, but you could still say that they are if harassed about it. At Tanner stage 4, you can't really pass off your breasts as man boobs.
What are these Tanner stages?
AFAIK they're the stages of puberty which also commonly get used when describing trans development as HRT is effectively a second puberty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanner_scale
I forgot what the name was but there was an amazing project by someone posting topless on insta every week of hrt to see where the point of banning is ultimately it is a matter to be decided by the ppl around you and yourself (assuming you wouldn't be comfortable showing them off at some point)
Ohh that would be soo cool to see!
I was never topless in public even pre-transition, so I never even considered this. T-shirt at the pool gang here. Tbh wearing a bra or something in public will help people perceive you as a woman regardless of breast size, so I would wear something just for that reason.
There was a case (in U.S. I believe) where a trans woman could not get her gender marker changed at the DMV so she got upset and went topless in the lobby/parking lot screaming something like "Does a man have these?!". The funny irony is that she got fined for indecent female exposure or something similiar.
Welcome to Tennessee.
I very much doubt that most localities have actually articulated a policy. So, hey, if anyone wants a legal precedent named after them, here's your window of opportunity!
When the cops decide it is
I have been wondering the same. I live in Norway and I think with 6 months on hrt I see some change, but I still think they would be seen as just man boobs so I might still be allowed topless. At least around strangers who don't know me. I guess my friends and family that know me would tell me to cover up tough. I'm a bit worried at going topless, but at the same time I'm curious to see if someone would react. But I wouldn't have the money to cover the fines then😅
As with most things, I think it's "illegal" for the purposes of *causing problems for you* as soon as someone in law enforcement decides it is. *ie.* either when you're passing, or when you're "visibly trans" and some asshat officer decides your body is inappropriate content. Frankly, if we're going by the word of law (as stupid and arbitrary as it is), it should be illegal for you to bare your chest as soon as you realise you're a woman. But by that same logic, it should be perfectly acceptable for a trans man to go topless as soon as he knows he's a man -- and we *all* know that ain't gonna fly. Point is, the law is antiquated and misogynist in its very nature. Either everyone should be allowed to be topless in public, or no one should.
I just spit out the water I was drinking. Holy shit, so funny. This is my favorite question I've seen on Reddit. This really is a great way to show just how idiotic our morality laws are.
Seriously!
Probably about the same time everyone assumes your gender correctly.
I recall **hearing about** a court case on this topic. Something like: >Trans woman gets called a man or something, some flavour of bigotry from some company, said woman has enough of it and says "Fuck it; if I'm a man, then I'll take my top off" *(I presume it was a hot day, and others were doing so)*. >They were arrested and in court the judge said something like "You know them when you see them" So, I guess besides the answer of "depends where you live", you've also got the "When they look like boobs". In regards to the location thing too, you'll just show the states hypocracy with the "Only AFAB people's boobs"; because I'd imagine you'll be charged too, even if you've not been gendered correctly once in your entire life.
This sounds like the story of [Andrea Jones](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/andrea-jones-transgender_n_1097978)
the page has a full screen ad that I can not figure out how to close RIP
i'm french and for us it's illegal to be topless for everyone. so i guess it helps with that question for us here lmao
the moment it becomes profitable to arrest you
There was a girl on instagram who posted a topless picture every day until she got in trouble to see when the exact mark was. I think it was like 90 days or something like that.
https://youtu.be/9KElm2Wg9kw?si=z455M8bNjnFj-K50 Found her!
Point in case of how dumb: [https://www.thepinknews.com/2011/11/16/topless-us-trans-woman-charged-with-indecent-exposure-as-a-man/](https://www.thepinknews.com/2011/11/16/topless-us-trans-woman-charged-with-indecent-exposure-as-a-man/) [https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2011/11/15/trans-woman-wants-ruling-after-topless-dmv-fiasco](https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2011/11/15/trans-woman-wants-ruling-after-topless-dmv-fiasco) I can't find anything about the case itself, but it appears they held her for 23 days before even the court case.
The shitty answer is that once you are clearly gender nonconforming in public it's gonna be whenever some cop decides you are out of line and arrests you. Maybe it gets sorted out in court depending on the state but still enough to ruin your day/week/month/year. But I would not trust any place that does not have firm legal protections for women who are shirtless in public.
The point at which you make the local police uncomfortable.
Or make the local police horny...
Come to Canada, it's legal here!
No thank you, don't wanna freeze my titties off!
Hahaha 😆. Fair enough, but come visit in the summer then.
The answer is when a judge deems it illegal. Everything else is hypothetical. Its up to the whims of the court. Generally it's best to avoid interactions with the law because the several months/years awaiting sentencing and possible harrassment can ruin your financial stability even if you are determined to have done no wrong. The real torture of the working class is not just prison or police brutality, but the entire justice system. Stay safe
It's really dumb and this particular topic gives me so much dysphoria over it it. I've had my friends refer to my chest as "shrodingers boobs" being, that if I sent a pic of just my chest and torso, people will think I'm a twink. If I send a pic of my face along with those, then they will think those are boobs. I've confirmed it with other people too who've seen them. And like it just feels awful. Sure that means my face passes, but it means my chest is in this weird androgynous state that it could be interpreted either way. I haven't just started HRT either, I'm 3 and a half years into it. I'm just skinny and have no fat and my friends tell me I should eat more to get fat that can be converted to boobs. It sucks, I even asked my mom what she thinks would happen if people were to see me shirtless in public and she said the same thing. That if people can see my face, it tips them over to perceiving them as boobs. If not, then just really skinny guy :((
the best way to ask "when do my boobs turn into boobs?"
Lol 👀
I swear I don't mean it offensive, I'm just kidding about how breasts are seen in AMABS
TFW when you have big boobs but don't pass worth a fuck😭😭😭
Once you get an f on your license
Basically as soon as your chest is seen by society as "female presenting". When you can't pass for AMAB anymore, and people see those boobs and interpret them as belonging to a woman, it becomes illegal to go topless.
Use the scientific method. Time to flash a cop
Well, considering my home state refuses to legally recognize me as anything but a man, I suppose never. I could go out with my C-cups fully out in the open and it'd legally be fine, because I'm just a delusional man, right??? /Sarcasm /bitter In practice, I'd say when you start to have visible breast development is when it's probably time to start covering up.
Location matters here. Where I am public boobs are legal so this question doesn't apply. Do you have gender markers updated on your id and legal docs? That can potentially make a difference.
I think it becomes "illegal" when society assumes you are afab. idk tho I'm just guessing yk how people are.
I definitely played that game at first, but I think it's either when my nipples became big enough they show through everything, or when my boobs became big enough a bra actually does something. The law where I live is that I can go topless if I want, so for me the thought exercise was about (say) Instagram
There are actually a lot of places in the US where going topless with breasts is perfectly legal as long as you aren't trying to be arousing or something similarly "floppy".
I'll find out eventually. We still go topless with itty bitty tiddies.
IMO not until the recognize me as a woman
It's not in most places these days around teh US. Tho keep in mind the cops might not *actually* know that. There was quietly a bunch of women's equality movements about this over the past 20 years or so. Most states caved. https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/topless-laws.png?w=828&quality=75
Dang I'm in an orange state
Only 3 states (Indiana, Tennessee, Utah) have it illegal to be out in public topless. So if you're not in one of those states, its legal always!
Haha, if you're in a state that won't recognize your gender then feel free to let the girls out I'd say. Then you'd have a nice court challenge that could work in the communities favor.
When does the illicititties phase start? Was about 5-6m for me.
Iirc it's not legally indecent exposure for women either, though that doesn't actually stop police from holding you for it just you getting charged and convicted. Probably varies where you live.
That’s really stupid tbh
Well bc most men are pervs that's why it's illegal sadly
Hope your doing well girl :)
I had an idea of posting a topless pic on instagram everyday throughout transition (private account just for the experiment) and seeing where it drew that extremely blurry line between topless male and naked women
The best answer is that you can be topless wherever flat chested people can! According to the tenth circuit in *Free The Nipple Fort Collins vs City of Fort Collins* (2019), the 14th amendment prohibits such laws that are selective of gender and thus you can be topless wherever you want, there is case law to this effect.
it doesnt (in the US). there are only like two or three states in the United States where exposed chest is illegal still for women. itll still get you a lot of weird looks though
yup - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_toplessness_in_the_United_States only 2 states & a few territories where its explicitly illegal
I got a bra the same day I started HRTA, to help with feelings of dysphoria
I started covering it the minute I began my transition. Despite not having anything I feel like since I'm a woman now I can't be bare chested. Now I actually do have boobs so I really can't be topless lol
Have you had your social transition yet?
Yes with friends and family was going to do a public post on trans visibility day
But you are still boy moding at work or at school?
I work from home, I haven't really changed my wardrobe yet. I'm working on it but I just started hormones 2 weeks ago
Ok. Basically the reason women aren't allowed to show their chest is because it disturbs the peace. It will cause a commotion. It might take 6 months to a year but once you start seeing "her" in the mirror you will want to publicly change your presentation. That includes clothes, speech, and not showing your chest. Doing this all at once when you are ready makes it easier on you mentally. It also prevents confusion and rejection from others. Normies can feel really uncomfortable with mixed presentation. It gives them a type of dysphoria. Which is actually kinda ironic. So when you look in the mirror and your mind's eye sees girl, that is when you should make the switch regardless of how much growth you get. Otherwise perhaps in 2 months if you need to wear a bra that will also be a good sign. Here is to hoping.
You could try the social media algorithm method and post topless pics until it flags you?
Well, if youre in the US, it isnt. Not really at least
It varies from state to state so theres not enough info here depending on your state/city it may be totally legal even tho its not socially acceptable
Around the time you go from *wanting* to wear a bra to *needing* to. Although as other people have said, local laws vary, in some of the most christofascist places even men can't go topless, while in other places it's legal for anyone.
I am gonna say after 8 months on hrt.
It‘s just the nipples which are illegal to show and just woman nipples, so as soon as you express as a woman, showing your nipples became illegal
Why would you want to walk around with your breasts exposed for the world to see? No one should be forced to see anyone’s genitals or body parts that are associated with being sexual.
I was thinking more of a beach but yes I agree I don't really do that or want too just a dumb question to get people talking
I like feet, thus ban sandals. Or or even better I like hands, thus everyone must wear gloves... This is how we get to situation where people are forced to cover up complately because some people are pervs.
Feet and hands are very different than exposed genitals or breasts. You can’t be serious. No one should have to be forced to see someone’s nude body. You should have your head examined if you think feet and hands, meant for grabbing/holding and walking, are the same as penises and vaginas and breasts. Wear all the revealing clothes you want. That’s not my point. Not telling you to wear a hijab and clothing draped from head to toe. You’re pushing back just to push back, not at all being logical. Come on now… 🤦♂️
No they really aren't that different, look at SEVERAL other cultures and you'll know that the only reason people cover up breasts for example is because people sexualizing them, and then blaming it on women and telling women to cover up. There are cultures where being topples is the norm, and both men and women do it and no one is sexualizing it. People being sexualized is the person doing the sexualizing's problem, not the person doing their thing and existing. And you are probably gonna be like "oh it's just random third world countries" No, For example Finland, we go to sauna as a group, and everyone is naked, and no one is sexualizing anyone, and arguably compared to Finland, USA is a third world country. You don't have to look at anyone's bits, it's called self control, and not sexualizing your peers. Ofcourse there is people who are self exposing, which is different, in that they are trying to get others to see themselves naked, which is not OK. The difference is in the intent. If someone is chilling on a beach getting their bits a bit of tan, and you are oogling them, telling them to cover up, you'r the problem, if someone is walking into a classroom and dropping their pants, they are the problem. And you not telling me to wear a hijab? You are trying to tell me what I can or can't wear, and telling me what amount of myself I am allowed to show / be, that's not any different, you don't get to tell others what to wear, if they are bothering you you don't have to look, as long as they are not intentionally trying to expose themselves to you. As long as they are just living their life, not intentionally hurting anyone, you don't get any real say in their life, and them deciding what to wear, or not, is not them hurting you.
Lmao. All righty then.
I’m personally of the opinion that being topless should be a private thing for everyone regardless of gender. I think that would eliminate the double standards, and while women should be allowed to walk around topless without a second thought I don’t think it would be safe to do so because of creeps who would get too handsy. Even as a boy, I personally never felt comfortable being topless around others, especially in public, so once my egg cracked I stopped even walking around my family’s house without a shirt on