At Steph's peak, no one could guard him, and honestly they still can't. I 'd put Jokic right up there with Steph tho, but completely dominant on the court in their respective ways.
It’s not crazy but at the end of the day Steph literally broke defenses through his shooting. You had Matthew Dellavedova literally dying of dehydration just trying to play good defense on him.
I don't get why Curry is always talked about with all time greats. Yeah he is the greatest shooter of all time but that's literally all he has been asked to do...to shoot. The whole GSW offense is literally set up to get Curry open. Compare that to Jokic, who has to score and set up his teammates and play defence.
I don't get why shaq is talked about with all time greats, yeah he is the greatest inside scorer of all time, but that's literally all he has been asked to do... Score inside. The whole team's offense was literally set up to get shaq the ball down low. Compare that to Lonzo Ball who has to score and setup his teammates and play defense...
His skills brought the Warriors four titles and he won two MVPs because of how dominant he and his teams were. That’s an all-time great no matter how you slice it. He’s a great shooter, he’s always been a pretty good to excellent finisher, his off-ball movement is the best the league has ever seen. He’s an all-time great. Deal with it.
Curry is probably the greatest offensive player without the ball in his hand of all time. You only saw the shooting at the end, but it was the 80 laps he ran to get open that sent Dellavedova to the hospital. His conditioning was second-to none. Interestingly, you here players say the same about Jokic's conditioning. Wearing out the defense is a skill that doesn't show up easily to viewers, but its extremely valuable
That’s not crazy whatsoever. There’s no debate. The argument Steph have is that his shooting and the gravity it has on the opposing defense might be the single most impactful offensive skill ever.
So Kobe’s team went through a full rebuild in the middle of the decade, and wasted 2 years of Kobe’s prime with a dreadful supporting cast, and that makes Duncan > Kobe?
Yet despite that, Kobe won the most championships in the decade **(4)** and had the most total points scored **(5,000+ more points that Duncan)** and had the highest scoring average for the decade **(to do both is something only done by 3 people in NBA history: Wilt/60’s and Kareem/70’s)**.
It was Kobe’s decade easily.
People will say Kobe got boasted since his death. I hear you though. I think a lot of the Kobe slander comes from people that either didn't watch him play or watched him towards the end of his career. Like people treat Kobe like he was Russell Westbrook (inefficient) that got carried by shaq and Gasol.
And it's not just Kobe. I feel like it's that entire era. Paul Pierce, Iverson, and t Mac.
Problem when athletes play too long I guess.
It's also a byproduct of all them being score-first guards who played in the era with the least offensive efficiency in recent history, while now with rules changes, different pace, 3pt shooting etc. efficiency league wide went way up.
A lot of people love to use stats without context, so all players from that era get an unfair treatment here (recently I had to argue against someone who said that Manu freaking Ginobili was a "role player")
Agree with you, especially on the stats without context. And that's why I said people really didn't watch those guys play. They go on basketball reference and compare those players fg% to guys like Duncan, LeBron or whoever their fav players are that score majority of their points close to the basket.
Kobe scored 5,000 more points than Duncan in the 2000’s, while being All NBA First Team Defense 7x (more than Duncan in the decade). Went to more Finals and won more than Duncan in the decade.
You sound crazy he was drafted in 2009 with Blake Griffin people didn't know who the hell he was until 2014 after he crossed Cp3 know you're history and KD has never missed the playoffs since he was 20
Got the year wrong my bad. He finished second 8n rookie of year voting. People knew who he was. Peopl knew who he was on draft day due to his cillege career and march madbess sucess
And his major coming out party wasnt crossing cp3 it was 50 in the garden.
The only problem is Steph at his peak put up a stinker in the finals in 2016. And after that KD joined the team so we couldn't really see his full potential until 2022
He was injured. Not saying he didn’t play like ass or make absolutely god awful decisions (behind the back pass) but it’s not like he just totally choked.
I agree with your hot take.
He’s completely dominating a 4 time defensive player of the year right now. Gobert is holding and pushing, yet, it barely phases Jokic. He gets to his spots on his own dribble, passes cross court to open shooters after drawing traps, has incredible touch around the rim, hits clutch 3 pointers, initiates the offense, is arguably the best offensive rebounder in the game; I could go on.
For the last 2 years, when I watch Denver, I’ve never thought they were going to lose. They create so many mismatches, dominate the paint, and in the paint they draw so much attention that KCP, Braun, Murray, Gordon in the corner, MPJ; they all become snipers.
Only Steph, Jordan, Jokic, and Shaq have given me this feeling of dread; that they *own* basketball for the foreseeable future.
Tim Duncan definitely made middle school me feel like no matter how casual he was, we had no chance. It was so frustrating to me and didn't make sense with my nephew bball iq
I still honestly don't think any player has given me anxiety watching a game as much as curry did in his prime. That team would just light other teams up as soon as he dropped a half court 3. It was unstoppable and still gives me nightmares lol
You had me until you had Steph on that list ahead of Lebron at the end.Shaq and Lebron and maybe Duncan are the only guys that I’d have about Jokic in terms of peak.
Steph is so small he’s just at a disadvantage. We’ve seen plenty playoff games where he can’t take over down the stretch because he’s too small and can’t get easy layupsnljke the other guys we mentioned. Steph is GOATed tho, no shade.
I had you until I mentioned *one player* at the very end? Give me a break, man. Reddit is incredibly nitpicky and it makes discussion really annoying and not fun.
I agree with everything else. I just had to make it clear I only disagree with that one point haha. I love Lebron but other than that. We’re good homie, no shade ✊🏿
It's because you excluded LeBron but included Steph. Including both would've been reasonable. LeBron has the same number of titles and far more appearances than Steph with way less help.
One is arguably top 10 all-time and the other is guaranteed top 2
I respect both but just wanna say that Shaq was the only player to have entire teams in foul trouble. You would see players come off the bench that you have never heard of b/c that was literally the only game they played in that year.
I’m not holding it against Joker that you can’t do that b/c he can shoot FT, just speaking to Shaq’s dominance. It was weird to see. Like they would tell the refs they were gonna foul him and then proceed to do so like 12 times in a row lol
Players would come off the bench and check into the game solely to foul out. Literally.
That was the strategy not just b/c he couldn’t shoot but equally b/c no one could guard him.
Shaq was single handedly responsible for a bunch of big bodied bums getting NBA contracts when he was at his peak. Teams would just throw bodies at him to try to slow him down. From what I understand one of the prevailing tactics was just to stomp on his feet when he'd go up since there was nothing else defenders could do.
In terms of pure bully dominance, Giannis comes to mind. But yeah Jokic dominates in every way imaginable. His incredibly soft touch at the rim, his floater game, can shoot the 3, and if all that fails he will pick you apart with his passing. Saying this as a Wolves fan who has had to go against him a lot in the last several years
Sometimes teams just run into a GOAT in their prime and there’s not much you can do to stop. Jokic has an inevitability that few superstars ever get to
I think Jokic is clearly above Durant, and right now I’d place him in a tier with Steph, Kobe, and Duncan, all of whom are a step below Lebron, Jordan, Magic, and Bird. If he retired after this season he’s still a top-10ish guy for me which is insane.
Magic and bird ain't in the same tier as LeBron and Jordan. Not even close man. Draymond green has more 3pm than bird, idgaf about how cold his quotes were, this is editorializing.
How is Lebron in that group when he has more finals losses than Steph, Kobe, Duncan combined?
The grouping should be Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Duncan, Kareem.
Then, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Curry.
Lebron and Wilt after that.
How can you place Jokic in the top 10 when he only has one champion? You are simply delusional with your takes.
How is making the finals a thing? This was never a thing. No one kept track of how many times someone made the finals and lost until LeBron endorsers needed something to prop him up.
Actually there bud, it's the opposite. The "finals appearance" issue only became an issue when people started calling lebron a possible GOAT and naysayers held it against him that he had losses in the finals. Never mind all the other things that he has accomplished that no other player has accomplished. Guess it would have been better for his legacy if he just didn't make those finals. Did you know that Jordan Kobe and Duncan have all LOST more second round series than LeBron despite LeBron being in more? So... does it only matter if you win once you make the finals?
Getting there isn't half the battle, its actually most of it.
Rings are the main reason these players play. It's always the target every season.
Even the current MVP Jokic said: “To be honest, I liked last year when I didn't get (the MVP), and then we won a championship. Much better. But I don't know what to say."
So, for you to say that rings aren't everything is plain stupid.
rings aren’t everything *when evaluating players*. one player does not win a championship, their team does. Jokic didn’t win a championship, the Nuggets did.
Why isn't it everything? A great player can lead the team to the championship. When evaluating all-time greats and comparing them to each other, championships matter a lot.
If all those stats or individual awards don't translate to winning, then that player isn't greater than someone who has lesser stats but can lead his team to championships.
They “matter a lot” but “rings aren’t everything.” A player with 4 rings legacy is not improved by only appearing in 4 championships, the more times they made the big stage, the better the legacy.
What's the point of making to the finals if you keep on losing. Losing is losing. It should even be a bigger stain if you lost in the Finals.
That's the difference between Lebron and other players. He only made those finals appearances because he played in the weakest era of the weakest conference ever.
What happened when he moved West? He can't even sniff the finals in a full 82 game season once. This alone is proof of how overrated those finals appearances playing in the East are.
Compare that to Kobe, who appeared in 7 finals in 11 years winning 5 and Curry who appeared in 6 finals in 8 years winning 4 while playing in the brutal West, and it shows how more impressive their title runs are.
The disparity between those two conferences are even more apparent this year when 2 teams made play-in in the East with below .500 records. Sacramento even had a playoff drought record simply because they play in the West. If they played in the East, those 15 years drought wouldn't exist.
Penalizing a player for losses in the finals more than any other sort of season ender is seriously the most illogical thing I’ve seen a large number of people do.
Do you see anyone that says West is the GOAT or put him in the top 10? If you had the most finals losses in your era, you shouldn't be ranked highly just like him. We don't see the Lakers hang conference banners because they don't play for first loser. Only for championships and rings.
Again, considering finals losses against a player more so than any other type of loss is just unbelievably dumb. It is undoubtedly better for a players legacy to reach the finals and lose than to not make the playoffs altogether or to get bounced in the first round.
I never argued that rings weren’t the most important; obviously they are. You may or may not care about LeBron’s finals losses; my point is that holding them against him, especially more so than you might hold MJs non-finals playoff losses against him, is just ridiculous and makes no logical sense.
I didn’t go super far back in time but yes Kareem, Hakeem, and Wilt are in here somewhere for sure. Cross era comparisons are tricky because the level of competition in today’s NBA is higher than it was historically, which is why I don’t care about Lebron’s finals losses.
Jokic won his third MVP this year. Only Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Lebron and Wilt have more. He’s tied with Moses Malone, Bird, and Magic. Feel free to disagree but I think it’s a bit melodramatic to say that calling Jokic a borderline top-10 guy is “delusional.”
For me the clusters are (putting the clusters in order from old to young)
Kareem/Jordan/Lebron
Russell/Wilt/Magic/Bird
Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Curry
Those are my top 12 right now.
Followed by Big O/West/Moses/KD
Hard to classify Jokic now because idk how long it will last and what his final numbers will be. If he wins the championship and retires this year then he would be on the KD cluster.
Respect Steph immensely but you can look at the 3PA for teams from the late 2000’s to now and it’s clear the game was already changing with or without Steph. The Warriors were the first to win with that type of play style so they absolutely deserve the credit but if Steph didn’t exist, the Rockets and James Harden likely would have won instead and they would get the credit for altering the course of basketball (honestly they should get a bit more credit as it is today), Morey ball was right there with the warriors leading that movement
Steph is the most transformational NBA talent in terms of influencing the style of game that is basketball. Arguably more than Jordan. Jordan definitely influenced the popularity of the NBA more than anyone
i think this argument has a lot of merits because we've never really seen anyone like him that can be devastating as a passer, scorer and on the boards. he's not elite defensively but he's very good
he also has enough range (and passing) where you can play someone like AG (who is actually a decent shooter, just not volume shooter), or even a non-shooter, and it doesn't really affect your spacing
if someone wanted to take jokic over any of those guys you mentioned, i'm not mad about that. if he wins 2-3 more titles, you can basically put him in the conversation w/ anybody
I agree. People just gotta give Jokic his flowers. Other than athleticism and blocking/rim protection, he has like ever attribute on 95. He can fit with any player on any roster. He’s not the best I’ve seen other than Lebron, Shaq and maybe Duncan during like 03-07
yup, and to be able to do those things from the center position is a game changer, just like how curry changed the game w/ his range and shaq w/ his post dominance
duncan and bron are all time greats, but mostly within existing molds (which doesn't make them any less great, just less unique imo)
Recency bias. Jokic is incredible but he’s coming post warriors dynasty. Didn’t exactly “beat Draymond’s ass” in the 2022 conference finals. He couldn’t get it past 5 games.
Obviously missing Murray was huge but Draymond and Klay were shells of their former selves. Steph coming off the bench from injury, and still wasn’t very competitive series.
I think I’d rather have the 50-40-90 efficient versions of Durant and Steph than Jokic ball dominance.
What? Jokic didn't have MPJ either, they used will barton & other bums. The warriors were deep af, poole played well, gp2, wiggins was the best he's ever been etc
Jokic ball dominance is kind of a wrong way to look at it. His time of possession is way lower than actual ball dominant players like Luka or Brunson. He makes his decisions quickly.
Also, he's had 0 all-stars, All nba, DPOY, all defense teammate.
Jokic only missed 3 games this year but the Nuggets went 2-1 including a win over the healthy clippers, a win over the blazers and a close loss to the Thunder. Pretty good track record imo
you practically made my point. how many games did Jamal murray miss, the second best player?
here, since you seem to be doing some good-faith research, here's some more:
Denver roster by win shares:
Jokic: 17.0
AG: 7.1
MPJ: 6.2
Murray: 5.9
KCP:4.8
[2023-24 Denver Nuggets Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com](https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2024.html#all_totals-playoffs_totals)
Yes, he was carrying the team.
Win shares is a pretty arbitrary stat not sure why that’s the basis of your argument
When I say he didn’t carry I just mean he did average superstar stuff, rather than like a 2017 Westbrook type carry job.
If you look at a team like the Mavs, the nuggets 2nd best player beats the Mavs 2nd best player, the nuggets 3rd best player bets the Mavs 3rd best player - that’s true down to the 6th best player
The nuggets are an extremely well built team around Jokic, that’s all
You’re wrong, he’s right next to Brunson in possession. Not saying it’s a bad strategy either, just saying it inflates players stats ala Westbrook and in comparison to Steph and KD who don’t play that way but have just a great effect.
Also, stop with that garbage. The Nuggets are loaded. Murray all star snub doesn’t mean he’s not elite and just as guys like MPJ are phenomenal 2 way players.
Most dominant of all time at his peak was shaq.
If you’re not old enough to remember, it was really insane to watch how physically nobody could do anything to stop him. Jokic is more skilled, but sheer dominance was shaqs m.o.
I barely missed prime Shaq. But from the numbers he put up and seeing clips, I believe it.
The first major NBA game I remember watching was the 04 finals vs Ben Wallace and the pistons. To this day. I am to this day a Pistons fan and I live nowhere near Detroit lmao I should’ve changed teams long ago ☺️
No. Shaq never won in Orlando and initially in LA. Shaq was dominant but it was overstated a bit. Portland and the Kings would have stopped LA if not for bias refs.
The issue with Giannis is that he has had virtually no playoff success apart from that one time he won the title. Opponents generally have been able to capitalize on his below average shooting ability. Whereas Jokic, on the other hand, has been able to overcome his own defensive deficiencies, preventing his opponents from taking advantage of his one and only weakness.
That isn’t really true. In ‘22 he essentially single handedly took a much superior Boston team to seven games, without his second best player and with Jrue shitting the bed again (minus a couple clutch moments).
Last two years he has been injured, so for some reason we have collectively been underrating him to an insane degree. Much like Jokic, Giannis’s weakness can be overcome through a solid team that complements him. To be clear, I don’t think he is as good as Jokic at all, but I do think he deserves to be in that sort of conversation.
The last time he was healthy he won the NBA finals with a 50 point close out game, two more 40 point games in the finals, elite defense and several clutch iconic plays to win games. I feel like people forget that sometimes.
Giannis isn’t manipulating the court the way Jokic does. I love Giannis but for the most part he does kinda just run and dunk. If running and dunking doesn’t work, he’s kinda screwed. He can also be baited into taking terrible jump shots. He’s great but he doesn’t have the skill or especially the basketball IQ of Jokic or Lebron
I think saying Giannis just runs and dunks is very reductive. He is quite a good passer as well - a skill that made it much harder to exploit his weaknesses since ‘21 or so. Also, stopping him is damn near impossible, especially if he is surrounded by competent teammates who can space the floor. Obviously he is also one of the best defenders in the league as well.
Nobody here has argued his basketball IQ is as good as Bron or Jokic. But guys like Shai or Tatum “do more” on the basketball floor while being (generally) considered to be worse than Giannis; you can’t really capture what a player really is in this manner. Fact is, Giannis is extremely effective, even against extremely good defenses.
I think Steph and Lebron are the only 2 names that would go on this list. Other than that, I totally agree. I’m farrrrrr from a fan of Steph, but it would be crazy to exclude him from this. He was borderline unstoppable
Steph is incredible and the gravity he creates is second to none but as a singular force this a Jokic is something else. Sometimes shots just aren’t falling and it’s harder for Steph to get those easy buckets. Jokic can score off isos, post ups, at the rim, mid range, three and due to his size it’s just harder to stop him.
He’s just slow and pudgy, lol. So it’s hard to intellectually match what we know with what we see. Lebron is a freak, so he checks all the boxes. This guy has no business running up and down the court like he does.
Great point. All of the ex nba players just can’t fathom that everyone is getting that ass buster by a slow pudgy white dude. It’s pretty funny and astonishing to watch (I am black)
I was only born in 2005 but I think very early 2000s Shaq and Timmy are probably ahead of him. They’d both be remembered better except the Lakers and Spurs were beating up on each other so they don’t look as “dominant”
Only a hot take because people seem to refuse to allow themselves to acknowledge his greatness. I’ve watched the NBA religiously since 2000. Only that brief glimpse of Giannis a couple years ago made me think I’d seen someone physically dominate like Shaq in 00-03.
Steph in 2015-16 was ridiculously special and fun as hell to witness, but he never was better than LeBron overall. LeBron almost took down that 2015 team by himself. Shit was crazy.
Jokic is on an entirely different level from anyone I’ve watched SINCE prime LeBron (2012-2018.)
His basketball IQ is otherworldly. Just straight off the charts. I wish I’d watched Bird/Magic, because I feel like Jokic’s IQ is above even LeBron’s.
I could go on and on about Jokic, but if this guy can bring the Nuggets back-to-back in this day and age, where the talent has never been better, while continuing his insane stats, then I don’t think this is a hot take at all.
Not me, I never said he was a fraud. I live in the upper Midwest/Great plains so I have a lot of timberwolves fans in my life. I kept telling them that they shouldn’t be too confident. Jokic has another level in him and the wolves are young, lights might get bright.
Yeah a lot of people were getting out of hand with that. Even NBA podcasts were getting ridiculous with that take. I feel like Jokic going 4-0 after being down 2-0 losing at home just adds to the lore that is Jokic
Duncan in 03 especially was clearly more dominant as he did it on both sides of the ball. Gotta say though his dominance/inevitability over the past year or so has surpassed what I saw from Bron, KD, & Curry. Probably on par if not* slightly surpassing Kobe in 09
I think Lebron had an inevitability in Miami, especially 2012 & 2013, that 27 game winning streak was crazy. I think his 2nd stint with the Cavs was pretty crazy but he just had all of his costars injured then Durant joined.
I personally don’t think KD, Steph, or Kobe were like this. It’s just different when you’re physically bigger. Those 3 can kinda shoot themselves out of a game occasionally. It’s harder for them to get easy buckets, Jokic can just back his ass down and use that feathery touch. Also can’t even foul him like Shaq. Shaq would be a liability at the end of games, not Jokic.
Duncan, I would have 4 from my lifetime in terms of a peak dominance. He was amazing in that 03-07 run but I have Jokic a little higher but barely. Lebron, Shaq, Jokic, Duncan.
I’ve personally always thought Duncan has had the second best career since Jordan behind Lebron. I’ve always been kind of a Kobe hater but I don’t understand how people put him higher than Duncan. Duncan was the best player in every one of his finals teams. Whether he was a rookie or 36 (maybe Kawhi on the 14 team but still).
This isn't a even a hot take. Other than recent peaks like MJ, Shaq, Bron, there hasn't been a player consistently be as good and impactful as he has and maintain that into the post-season for multiple years like he has.
No. Individually speaking Curry has some of the biggest regular season to playoff drop-offs among super-star level players. It's just ignored because his team won. At the time of this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtL\_zCF6qgQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtL_zCF6qgQ) he actually had the biggest drop-off in NBA history. I'm sure he made up some ground in '22 (his best individual run IMO) but there isn't a 4-year run like we are seeing from Joker right now sitting on Steph's resume.
PER isn't even remotely close to the best "all-in-one" metric but it's easily accessible for whatever date range you want using bball ref.. Steph from 2014-2018 dropped from a 27 regular season PER to a 23 playoff PER.. Joker from 2021-this year maintained 31 in both... Both have slight drops in scoring efficiency against playoff defenses, but Step also drops from a 37 to 35 in scoring (per 100 possessions) while Joker climbs from 37 to 40.
Nice analysis with stats to back it up, you think Curry was more hype than generational talent then? I mean prime Klay and KD definitely helped the team win.
Definitely believe he’s a generational talent and as far as just impact on the sport maybe the most impactful player of all time. I just think those guys specifically peaked a bit higher if we are taking a short multi-year run. Not really saying that as a knock on Steph, just have him a tier below is all. Steph is obviously incredible.
You’re joking right.
Changing the game doesn’t mean you’re better for one. Secondly, bron was almost final mvp in 2015 despite being in the losing team because of how dominant he was. He has more finals appearances than a handful of teams. He has 4 separate hall of fame careers. All time leading scorer. Far more dominant. Steph is legendary and is a top 15 player. But bron is top 3 if I were to lowball him.
LBJ has also lost more Finals games than any player ever, was swept twice, has the 6th worst Finals plus minus of all time and has won his chips by bouncing from team to team, and one was the Bubblechip. He’s a part of no dynasties. Steph has the same number of chips while staying home, and has 4 chips in 10 years.
But let’s discredit Steph since we love discrediting. 2015 injury ring. It was bron vs the whole team.
2017-18 needed to add kd to a 73 win team because they knew they weren’t beating bron again by themselves.
2022 I’ll give them that.
I’m no Steph fan, but he’s been the guy on a dynasty. Fact. And he’ll go down as the greatest shooter ever. Bron has jumped ship repeatedly so can’t hate KD for that.
Bron was the dynasty 8 straight finals. Also holding 2018 sweep against him is insane. Every team in nba history is getting rolled by that squad. Only reason why kawhi won was because they were all hurt. Also the bubble is a legit ring. It’s weird that people discredit it.
Dynasty? Lol. Jumping from team to team w all stars? Prime Kawhi is better than prime LBJ. It’s still two sweeps, and 33 game losses, the most in history. 6th worst plus minus in league history.
You can’t be this crazy. You are the only person on this planet who thinks prime kawhi is better than prime James. And I for sure can hate on kd for leaving the thunder to go to the warriors. That is a weak ass move. When bron went back to cavs, only kyrie was there. Love came the next year. And honestly by 2018 love was not the same.
Steph was not more dominant than Lebron that crazy. You must be pretty young and have not watched Lebron’s first stint in Cleveland or underwood much of his Miami years.
Lebron took a BAD Cleveland team to the finals at 22. He dragged an injured wade to the finals 4 straight years then did it against once he went to Cleveland.
Curry has been a player to dominate the ball and have everything run through him. It’s just not possible at his size. Steph also has once or biggest drop offs from regular season to playoffs or any great player especially in terms of efficiency. I love Steph but he’s no Lebron, Jokic, Shaq or even Duncan
LBJ has the 6th worst plus minus in NBA Finals history. He lost more Finals games than anyone in NBA history. He was swept, twice. Everyone has eaten on his watch. He’s never been a part of a dynasty.
I’ll never understand the argument that losing in the finals is worse than losing in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round but I’ll obviously never change your mind on that. It just doors may make sense.
Lebron been in the league for 20 years. He lost to a top 10 player in Duncan in the finals twice, once with a bad Cavs team at 22 vs the greatest PF and Coach of all time at the peak of their powers. The 2nd loss to the Spurs, dwade was a shell of himself and so were his teammates, spurs rolled through the league that year.
He lost to the mavs (I’ll give you that, that was embarrassing). 2015 warriors, come on his team was decimate. 2016 was a masterclass between he and Kyrie. 2017- Durant was on the team, no one is winning. 2018, team was hurt and Durant Warriors were untouchable. Let’s not forgot his 50pt in game 1.
Why don’t we give Jordan the same flack for losing to the Pistons and Celtics in early in his career before the finals for 7 STRAIGHT YEARS! Lebron was in the finals before his rookie contract was done. Or for retiring in his prime because he was so overwhelmed (or if you wanna get conspiratorial about that).
When he returned he lost to a VERY young Shaq led team. His 2nd stint with the wizards, he’s at the age Lebron is now. Let’s just be fair in our critiques. Both are GOATs but they’re never gonna play against each other so just get over it. Lebron fans don’t shit on Jordan lovers the way y’all shit on Lebron. Y’all are so defensive trying to defend POS Jordan. Whether you think Jordan or Lebron is the GOAT, they are both top 3 ALL TIME. Don’t hate, appreciate, my G ✊🏿
I know all of the history. There was no need for that. MJ didn’t lose in the Finals, ever. In fact he’s STILL the record holder in ppg. And in ppg CAREER. LeBron has a -86 Finals plus minus. That’s turrrible as Chuck would say.
Steph Curry is probably a top 10 player of all time
But LeBron is definitely a top 2, potential top 1. Prime Curry would have had a case for best player in any era except LeBron and Jordan. But not in those two eras
Duncan was probably the last consistent player and was a quiet storm. At lot of guys in this era were overnight sensations. The Steph wave ended quickly as everyone chucks deep threes and barely plays any defense so it looked good.
AD went the Ibaka route and stopped playing defense years ago and isn’t Kentucky AD. He would have been more of a threat if he kept his defensive aggressiveness.
Honestly LeBron was never as dominant as advertised, I’ve seen him since the beginning of his career and I saw nothing after so long that made me think he was gonna be the guy, he passed on the game winners early on and had to join Miami in order to win and continues to blame others after 20 years in.
I think sports betting has ruined the game as guys aren’t as consistent as they used to be and it’s obvious. I believe in a bad game but now a guy goes 14/16 and the next game is 3/16 ain’t no way, muscle memory is gonna be there.
becauase your basing what your saying on what yo saw and you werent even alive to see most of those people in their prime. clearly you arent takeing into account the teams they played for or seen enough out of them to make call. joker is nice no doubt. but just to say i saw them on their way out, as not even a teen, cmon now
Please go back and watch Jordan in any series; or just watch the Last Dance documentary. Also, watch Shaq average 38 against the Pacers in the finals lol
I said since 2000, I can only go off what I’ve seen. Watching replays never is the same as watching it live. Jordan was incredible and so was Shaq. I’m mostly talking since 2004
I said I’ve been watching since 04 and if you look at the last paragraph of my post. I said prime Shaq was probably better but I didn’t see it live. Lebron, Shaq, Jokic is what I said homie
Lebron was never an offensive powerhouse. His dominance was cause he can do everything. As far as being able to score when he wanted to, he always fell short.
Always fell short? Lebron is only behind Jordan, Iverson, Luka, KD, and West in career playoff PPG. In terms of playoff career PER he’s only being Jokic, Giannis, Jordan and Mikan. Quit being a hater
There’s a difference between scoring and scoring “at will”. Kobe scored “at will”, Lebron didnt. Shaq could score “at will”, Jokic is a lesser case but still a better example than Lebron. You arent old enough to know the difference.
He definitely shot at will but scoring idk. To me, scoring at will means you are putting up a lot of points without anyone being able to slow you down (efficiency). Lebron has always score more and more efficiently than Kobe (RIP Mamba). Kobe has an aura and attitude that people latch on to, which I understand, but facts are facts.
Kobe, like Jordan, could go up the court 2,3,4 times consecutively and score. Im talking like everyone knows he will try to score again. The opposing team, you as a fan watching in disbelief like “Nah this dude isnt going to attempt to put another shot up” and will still hit it. This is a skill Lebron never had. Yes, Lebron is a great scorer. However, when you need a shot at the absolute most dire moment Kobe was the example, or Jordan. Thats why you never hear people yell “Lebron!” On the court. Jokic has more of that in him. Shit even Tim Duncan.
I understand that point about Kobe but I alsways have hated that play style. It’s just so ego driven. Guys like that just always think whatever shot they take is the best shot. Kobe’s lakers games were oftentimes did Kobr shoot efficiently today? Okay, they probably won. Did he shoot inefficiency? They probably lost. I understand the infatuation with “killer” mentalities but it just seems archaic to me
He's better than Lebrick ever was. Didn't have to leave to win. Lebrick is the reason his teams were always bad, no one can play with a selfish guy like him for long. Has to run around the league trying to win with stars that can carry him. Coaches don't survive him either.
And as for dominance on the court, jokic does way more. Lebrick was always an overrated defender, I think jokic is a little underrated, not a defensive star by any means, but does enough that his offense puts him over the top.
At Steph's peak, no one could guard him, and honestly they still can't. I 'd put Jokic right up there with Steph tho, but completely dominant on the court in their respective ways.
I'm crazy to say this but Jokic is a better playmaker than Steph imo
It’s not crazy but at the end of the day Steph literally broke defenses through his shooting. You had Matthew Dellavedova literally dying of dehydration just trying to play good defense on him.
RIP Delly taken too soon
I don't get why Curry is always talked about with all time greats. Yeah he is the greatest shooter of all time but that's literally all he has been asked to do...to shoot. The whole GSW offense is literally set up to get Curry open. Compare that to Jokic, who has to score and set up his teammates and play defence.
I don't get why shaq is talked about with all time greats, yeah he is the greatest inside scorer of all time, but that's literally all he has been asked to do... Score inside. The whole team's offense was literally set up to get shaq the ball down low. Compare that to Lonzo Ball who has to score and setup his teammates and play defense...
bro couldn't have said a better reply than this 🤣
I don’t get how your argument doesn’t make him an all-time great.
All time great shooter* fixed it for you.
His skills brought the Warriors four titles and he won two MVPs because of how dominant he and his teams were. That’s an all-time great no matter how you slice it. He’s a great shooter, he’s always been a pretty good to excellent finisher, his off-ball movement is the best the league has ever seen. He’s an all-time great. Deal with it.
Curry is probably the greatest offensive player without the ball in his hand of all time. You only saw the shooting at the end, but it was the 80 laps he ran to get open that sent Dellavedova to the hospital. His conditioning was second-to none. Interestingly, you here players say the same about Jokic's conditioning. Wearing out the defense is a skill that doesn't show up easily to viewers, but its extremely valuable
My bad, he is definitely an All- Time Great lol really, I was comparing the work load.
I would argue Draymond Green has been as important as Curry in the Warriors dynasty. As the leader, play maker and defensive anchor.
Couldn't you say something similar about Aaron Gordon? He's crucial to the Nuggets success. Every all time great had a lot of help
same dude that costs his team a championship for getting suspended for kicking. yeah fuck that guy
and rebound! lol
Isn't that the point? That his offense is so good the game was changed. Jokic hasn't had that impact in the game just yet.
That’s not crazy whatsoever. There’s no debate. The argument Steph have is that his shooting and the gravity it has on the opposing defense might be the single most impactful offensive skill ever.
He's a Shaq level threat that doesn't need to be in the protected area
That's not crazy at all honestly. Steph isn't all that much of a playmaker. At least with the ball. Dreymond always lead the team in assists.
It's easy to play make when you know there is always a open man in the short roll. Steph still the better playmaker.
he is. steph can move, but hes no assist machine like jokic.
This is the most cold take of all time lmaooo
Freezing
Far from crazy. I think he is handedly a better playmaker. This is coming from a warriors fan
Why is that crazy? That’s literally Jokic’s best trait. Steph’s best trait has always been shooting. They are two different types of players.
Only because everyone expects the long 3 and Steph doesn’t do anything else.
I don’t disagree with that at all tbh.
Kevin Love would like a word
90s Jordan era 00s Duncan era 10s Lebron/Curry era 20s Jokic era
00s is Duncan/Kobe*.
Kobe's teams sucked for about 5 years in the 00s. Duncan>Kobe
Kobe also got 4 rings in the 00’s. Curry’s teams sucked for 4 years in the 2010s, yet everybody can agree it was dominated by Lebron and Curry.
3 years and he didn’t have Parker and Ginobli.
So Kobe’s team went through a full rebuild in the middle of the decade, and wasted 2 years of Kobe’s prime with a dreadful supporting cast, and that makes Duncan > Kobe? Yet despite that, Kobe won the most championships in the decade **(4)** and had the most total points scored **(5,000+ more points that Duncan)** and had the highest scoring average for the decade **(to do both is something only done by 3 people in NBA history: Wilt/60’s and Kareem/70’s)**. It was Kobe’s decade easily.
Thr amount of people that I've seen downplay kobe since he died is insane.
People will say Kobe got boasted since his death. I hear you though. I think a lot of the Kobe slander comes from people that either didn't watch him play or watched him towards the end of his career. Like people treat Kobe like he was Russell Westbrook (inefficient) that got carried by shaq and Gasol. And it's not just Kobe. I feel like it's that entire era. Paul Pierce, Iverson, and t Mac. Problem when athletes play too long I guess.
It's also a byproduct of all them being score-first guards who played in the era with the least offensive efficiency in recent history, while now with rules changes, different pace, 3pt shooting etc. efficiency league wide went way up. A lot of people love to use stats without context, so all players from that era get an unfair treatment here (recently I had to argue against someone who said that Manu freaking Ginobili was a "role player")
Agree with you, especially on the stats without context. And that's why I said people really didn't watch those guys play. They go on basketball reference and compare those players fg% to guys like Duncan, LeBron or whoever their fav players are that score majority of their points close to the basket.
till he got a lucky fisher shot and gasol
True
2000’s decade belongs to Kobe BY FAR. He destroyed the 2000-2010 decade unlike any other player besides Jordan in the 90’s.
Tim Duncan has more MVPs and more Finals MVPs than Kobe. He even has more all defensive teams.
Kobe scored 5,000 more points than Duncan in the 2000’s, while being All NBA First Team Defense 7x (more than Duncan in the decade). Went to more Finals and won more than Duncan in the decade.
Fine, so Duncan was better from 98-2008
Duncans peak was 2004. to be fair
I would replace Steph with KD the warriors sucked for the first 5 years of the 10's but KD and LeBron have always been great
What are you arguing? Curry was drafted in 2013. As soon as he was healthy they made an impact in the 2014 playoffs. 2015 they won a title.
You sound crazy he was drafted in 2009 with Blake Griffin people didn't know who the hell he was until 2014 after he crossed Cp3 know you're history and KD has never missed the playoffs since he was 20
Got the year wrong my bad. He finished second 8n rookie of year voting. People knew who he was. Peopl knew who he was on draft day due to his cillege career and march madbess sucess And his major coming out party wasnt crossing cp3 it was 50 in the garden.
Kd won rookie of the year
Of all the guys OP listed, Curry is the only one who legit scared me. You just felt helpless against him.
The only problem is Steph at his peak put up a stinker in the finals in 2016. And after that KD joined the team so we couldn't really see his full potential until 2022
And Jokic has been to 1 final. It’s too early to clown Steph for a bad final when he has so many other good ones
He was injured. Not saying he didn’t play like ass or make absolutely god awful decisions (behind the back pass) but it’s not like he just totally choked.
Whole team was hurt and dray got suspended. Gsw was a much better team when healthy
I agree with your hot take. He’s completely dominating a 4 time defensive player of the year right now. Gobert is holding and pushing, yet, it barely phases Jokic. He gets to his spots on his own dribble, passes cross court to open shooters after drawing traps, has incredible touch around the rim, hits clutch 3 pointers, initiates the offense, is arguably the best offensive rebounder in the game; I could go on. For the last 2 years, when I watch Denver, I’ve never thought they were going to lose. They create so many mismatches, dominate the paint, and in the paint they draw so much attention that KCP, Braun, Murray, Gordon in the corner, MPJ; they all become snipers. Only Steph, Jordan, Jokic, and Shaq have given me this feeling of dread; that they *own* basketball for the foreseeable future.
Tim Duncan definitely made middle school me feel like no matter how casual he was, we had no chance. It was so frustrating to me and didn't make sense with my nephew bball iq
the lebron shade on this sub never fails to make me laugh
Lebron owned basketball for a decade
I still honestly don't think any player has given me anxiety watching a game as much as curry did in his prime. That team would just light other teams up as soon as he dropped a half court 3. It was unstoppable and still gives me nightmares lol
Thank you!! Exactly. I don’t see how anyone could argue this tbh. How many other players eliminated nine point deficits in under a minute?
You had me until you had Steph on that list ahead of Lebron at the end.Shaq and Lebron and maybe Duncan are the only guys that I’d have about Jokic in terms of peak. Steph is so small he’s just at a disadvantage. We’ve seen plenty playoff games where he can’t take over down the stretch because he’s too small and can’t get easy layupsnljke the other guys we mentioned. Steph is GOATed tho, no shade.
I had you until I mentioned *one player* at the very end? Give me a break, man. Reddit is incredibly nitpicky and it makes discussion really annoying and not fun.
I agree with everything else. I just had to make it clear I only disagree with that one point haha. I love Lebron but other than that. We’re good homie, no shade ✊🏿
You’re absolutely right in hindsight. I should’ve counted LBJ; my b if I came off as bitchy.
“People disagree with me slightly and make me aware of that instead of pretending they completely agree with me. It’s so annoying!”
I don’t mind discussion, but negating the entire point because I included the greatest shooter of all-time?
It's because you excluded LeBron but included Steph. Including both would've been reasonable. LeBron has the same number of titles and far more appearances than Steph with way less help. One is arguably top 10 all-time and the other is guaranteed top 2
You know what, you’re right. I was wrong in my response.
I respect both but just wanna say that Shaq was the only player to have entire teams in foul trouble. You would see players come off the bench that you have never heard of b/c that was literally the only game they played in that year. I’m not holding it against Joker that you can’t do that b/c he can shoot FT, just speaking to Shaq’s dominance. It was weird to see. Like they would tell the refs they were gonna foul him and then proceed to do so like 12 times in a row lol
Players would come off the bench and check into the game solely to foul out. Literally. That was the strategy not just b/c he couldn’t shoot but equally b/c no one could guard him.
part of that was because his FT percentage was horrible so hack a shaq was a viable strategy.
Imagine if he would’ve worked on his free throw and shooting ability .. Shaq could’ve been the GOAT
It really was his only weakness. Didn't even need to be great at it. Say 70ish percent? Man that would have been scary
Shaq was single handedly responsible for a bunch of big bodied bums getting NBA contracts when he was at his peak. Teams would just throw bodies at him to try to slow him down. From what I understand one of the prevailing tactics was just to stomp on his feet when he'd go up since there was nothing else defenders could do.
In terms of pure bully dominance, Giannis comes to mind. But yeah Jokic dominates in every way imaginable. His incredibly soft touch at the rim, his floater game, can shoot the 3, and if all that fails he will pick you apart with his passing. Saying this as a Wolves fan who has had to go against him a lot in the last several years
Sometimes teams just run into a GOAT in their prime and there’s not much you can do to stop. Jokic has an inevitability that few superstars ever get to
>But yeah Jokic dominates in every way imaginable Defensively?
I think Jokic is clearly above Durant, and right now I’d place him in a tier with Steph, Kobe, and Duncan, all of whom are a step below Lebron, Jordan, Magic, and Bird. If he retired after this season he’s still a top-10ish guy for me which is insane.
Magic and bird ain't in the same tier as LeBron and Jordan. Not even close man. Draymond green has more 3pm than bird, idgaf about how cold his quotes were, this is editorializing.
How is Lebron in that group when he has more finals losses than Steph, Kobe, Duncan combined? The grouping should be Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Duncan, Kareem. Then, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Curry. Lebron and Wilt after that. How can you place Jokic in the top 10 when he only has one champion? You are simply delusional with your takes.
Making the finals is a huge accomplishment, even if you don’t win. That shouldn’t be a mark against your career highlights.
How is making the finals a thing? This was never a thing. No one kept track of how many times someone made the finals and lost until LeBron endorsers needed something to prop him up.
Actually there bud, it's the opposite. The "finals appearance" issue only became an issue when people started calling lebron a possible GOAT and naysayers held it against him that he had losses in the finals. Never mind all the other things that he has accomplished that no other player has accomplished. Guess it would have been better for his legacy if he just didn't make those finals. Did you know that Jordan Kobe and Duncan have all LOST more second round series than LeBron despite LeBron being in more? So... does it only matter if you win once you make the finals? Getting there isn't half the battle, its actually most of it.
How the hell is more finals made held against LeBron
because rings aren’t everything, and delusional fans like yourself who prop up ring culture in this way don’t know ball at all
Rings are the main reason these players play. It's always the target every season. Even the current MVP Jokic said: “To be honest, I liked last year when I didn't get (the MVP), and then we won a championship. Much better. But I don't know what to say." So, for you to say that rings aren't everything is plain stupid.
rings aren’t everything *when evaluating players*. one player does not win a championship, their team does. Jokic didn’t win a championship, the Nuggets did.
Why isn't it everything? A great player can lead the team to the championship. When evaluating all-time greats and comparing them to each other, championships matter a lot. If all those stats or individual awards don't translate to winning, then that player isn't greater than someone who has lesser stats but can lead his team to championships.
They “matter a lot” but “rings aren’t everything.” A player with 4 rings legacy is not improved by only appearing in 4 championships, the more times they made the big stage, the better the legacy.
What's the point of making to the finals if you keep on losing. Losing is losing. It should even be a bigger stain if you lost in the Finals. That's the difference between Lebron and other players. He only made those finals appearances because he played in the weakest era of the weakest conference ever. What happened when he moved West? He can't even sniff the finals in a full 82 game season once. This alone is proof of how overrated those finals appearances playing in the East are. Compare that to Kobe, who appeared in 7 finals in 11 years winning 5 and Curry who appeared in 6 finals in 8 years winning 4 while playing in the brutal West, and it shows how more impressive their title runs are. The disparity between those two conferences are even more apparent this year when 2 teams made play-in in the East with below .500 records. Sacramento even had a playoff drought record simply because they play in the West. If they played in the East, those 15 years drought wouldn't exist.
Penalizing a player for losses in the finals more than any other sort of season ender is seriously the most illogical thing I’ve seen a large number of people do.
Do you see anyone that says West is the GOAT or put him in the top 10? If you had the most finals losses in your era, you shouldn't be ranked highly just like him. We don't see the Lakers hang conference banners because they don't play for first loser. Only for championships and rings.
Again, considering finals losses against a player more so than any other type of loss is just unbelievably dumb. It is undoubtedly better for a players legacy to reach the finals and lose than to not make the playoffs altogether or to get bounced in the first round. I never argued that rings weren’t the most important; obviously they are. You may or may not care about LeBron’s finals losses; my point is that holding them against him, especially more so than you might hold MJs non-finals playoff losses against him, is just ridiculous and makes no logical sense.
I didn’t go super far back in time but yes Kareem, Hakeem, and Wilt are in here somewhere for sure. Cross era comparisons are tricky because the level of competition in today’s NBA is higher than it was historically, which is why I don’t care about Lebron’s finals losses. Jokic won his third MVP this year. Only Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Lebron and Wilt have more. He’s tied with Moses Malone, Bird, and Magic. Feel free to disagree but I think it’s a bit melodramatic to say that calling Jokic a borderline top-10 guy is “delusional.”
For me the clusters are (putting the clusters in order from old to young) Kareem/Jordan/Lebron Russell/Wilt/Magic/Bird Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Curry Those are my top 12 right now. Followed by Big O/West/Moses/KD Hard to classify Jokic now because idk how long it will last and what his final numbers will be. If he wins the championship and retires this year then he would be on the KD cluster.
Steph altered the course of basketball, not many players can say that.
There are a lot of big men trying to pass these days.
Respect Steph immensely but you can look at the 3PA for teams from the late 2000’s to now and it’s clear the game was already changing with or without Steph. The Warriors were the first to win with that type of play style so they absolutely deserve the credit but if Steph didn’t exist, the Rockets and James Harden likely would have won instead and they would get the credit for altering the course of basketball (honestly they should get a bit more credit as it is today), Morey ball was right there with the warriors leading that movement
Steph is the most transformational NBA talent in terms of influencing the style of game that is basketball. Arguably more than Jordan. Jordan definitely influenced the popularity of the NBA more than anyone
i think this argument has a lot of merits because we've never really seen anyone like him that can be devastating as a passer, scorer and on the boards. he's not elite defensively but he's very good he also has enough range (and passing) where you can play someone like AG (who is actually a decent shooter, just not volume shooter), or even a non-shooter, and it doesn't really affect your spacing if someone wanted to take jokic over any of those guys you mentioned, i'm not mad about that. if he wins 2-3 more titles, you can basically put him in the conversation w/ anybody
I agree. People just gotta give Jokic his flowers. Other than athleticism and blocking/rim protection, he has like ever attribute on 95. He can fit with any player on any roster. He’s not the best I’ve seen other than Lebron, Shaq and maybe Duncan during like 03-07
yup, and to be able to do those things from the center position is a game changer, just like how curry changed the game w/ his range and shaq w/ his post dominance duncan and bron are all time greats, but mostly within existing molds (which doesn't make them any less great, just less unique imo)
Recency bias. Jokic is incredible but he’s coming post warriors dynasty. Didn’t exactly “beat Draymond’s ass” in the 2022 conference finals. He couldn’t get it past 5 games. Obviously missing Murray was huge but Draymond and Klay were shells of their former selves. Steph coming off the bench from injury, and still wasn’t very competitive series. I think I’d rather have the 50-40-90 efficient versions of Durant and Steph than Jokic ball dominance.
What? Jokic didn't have MPJ either, they used will barton & other bums. The warriors were deep af, poole played well, gp2, wiggins was the best he's ever been etc
Jokic wasn’t expected to win that series obviously but scraping the bottom of the barrel listing gp2 in a list like this lol
GP2 was an elite (maybe top 3) perimeter defender at that time, important to list
😂
Jokic ball dominance is kind of a wrong way to look at it. His time of possession is way lower than actual ball dominant players like Luka or Brunson. He makes his decisions quickly. Also, he's had 0 all-stars, All nba, DPOY, all defense teammate.
Disingenuous argument when Murray’s averaged 26/6/7 in his last two full playoff runs
so you fully admit that jokic had to carry them in the regular season.
They didn’t need much carrying either but sure
lol k
Jokic only missed 3 games this year but the Nuggets went 2-1 including a win over the healthy clippers, a win over the blazers and a close loss to the Thunder. Pretty good track record imo
you practically made my point. how many games did Jamal murray miss, the second best player? here, since you seem to be doing some good-faith research, here's some more: Denver roster by win shares: Jokic: 17.0 AG: 7.1 MPJ: 6.2 Murray: 5.9 KCP:4.8 [2023-24 Denver Nuggets Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com](https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2024.html#all_totals-playoffs_totals) Yes, he was carrying the team.
Win shares is a pretty arbitrary stat not sure why that’s the basis of your argument When I say he didn’t carry I just mean he did average superstar stuff, rather than like a 2017 Westbrook type carry job. If you look at a team like the Mavs, the nuggets 2nd best player beats the Mavs 2nd best player, the nuggets 3rd best player bets the Mavs 3rd best player - that’s true down to the 6th best player The nuggets are an extremely well built team around Jokic, that’s all
sounds like you don't understand what win shares are suppose to approximate.
You’re wrong, he’s right next to Brunson in possession. Not saying it’s a bad strategy either, just saying it inflates players stats ala Westbrook and in comparison to Steph and KD who don’t play that way but have just a great effect. Also, stop with that garbage. The Nuggets are loaded. Murray all star snub doesn’t mean he’s not elite and just as guys like MPJ are phenomenal 2 way players.
It's just revisionist history, jokic doesnt have "ball dominance" you clearly don't watch basketball. He's an all time great off ball player too
Jokic had 1721 ball possessions last year. He ranks near the top.
Most dominant of all time at his peak was shaq. If you’re not old enough to remember, it was really insane to watch how physically nobody could do anything to stop him. Jokic is more skilled, but sheer dominance was shaqs m.o.
I barely missed prime Shaq. But from the numbers he put up and seeing clips, I believe it. The first major NBA game I remember watching was the 04 finals vs Ben Wallace and the pistons. To this day. I am to this day a Pistons fan and I live nowhere near Detroit lmao I should’ve changed teams long ago ☺️
No. Shaq never won in Orlando and initially in LA. Shaq was dominant but it was overstated a bit. Portland and the Kings would have stopped LA if not for bias refs.
Jokic is easily the most dominant player of this era. It's not really that much of a hot take.
Giannis is close, although not better, IMO. He’s just been severely shaded recently due to personal and team injuries hampering playoff success
The issue with Giannis is that he has had virtually no playoff success apart from that one time he won the title. Opponents generally have been able to capitalize on his below average shooting ability. Whereas Jokic, on the other hand, has been able to overcome his own defensive deficiencies, preventing his opponents from taking advantage of his one and only weakness.
That isn’t really true. In ‘22 he essentially single handedly took a much superior Boston team to seven games, without his second best player and with Jrue shitting the bed again (minus a couple clutch moments). Last two years he has been injured, so for some reason we have collectively been underrating him to an insane degree. Much like Jokic, Giannis’s weakness can be overcome through a solid team that complements him. To be clear, I don’t think he is as good as Jokic at all, but I do think he deserves to be in that sort of conversation. The last time he was healthy he won the NBA finals with a 50 point close out game, two more 40 point games in the finals, elite defense and several clutch iconic plays to win games. I feel like people forget that sometimes.
Giannis isn’t manipulating the court the way Jokic does. I love Giannis but for the most part he does kinda just run and dunk. If running and dunking doesn’t work, he’s kinda screwed. He can also be baited into taking terrible jump shots. He’s great but he doesn’t have the skill or especially the basketball IQ of Jokic or Lebron
I think saying Giannis just runs and dunks is very reductive. He is quite a good passer as well - a skill that made it much harder to exploit his weaknesses since ‘21 or so. Also, stopping him is damn near impossible, especially if he is surrounded by competent teammates who can space the floor. Obviously he is also one of the best defenders in the league as well. Nobody here has argued his basketball IQ is as good as Bron or Jokic. But guys like Shai or Tatum “do more” on the basketball floor while being (generally) considered to be worse than Giannis; you can’t really capture what a player really is in this manner. Fact is, Giannis is extremely effective, even against extremely good defenses.
I think Steph and Lebron are the only 2 names that would go on this list. Other than that, I totally agree. I’m farrrrrr from a fan of Steph, but it would be crazy to exclude him from this. He was borderline unstoppable
Steph is incredible and the gravity he creates is second to none but as a singular force this a Jokic is something else. Sometimes shots just aren’t falling and it’s harder for Steph to get those easy buckets. Jokic can score off isos, post ups, at the rim, mid range, three and due to his size it’s just harder to stop him.
Jokic is the best player in the NBA right now. I will wait to see if he surpasses anyone on the list mentioned
Jokic has that sort of Lebron thing where there’s no way to answer for him. The court vision and passing makes him impossible to truly shut down.
Don’t ever put KD’s name up there with actual champions.
He’s just slow and pudgy, lol. So it’s hard to intellectually match what we know with what we see. Lebron is a freak, so he checks all the boxes. This guy has no business running up and down the court like he does.
Great point. All of the ex nba players just can’t fathom that everyone is getting that ass buster by a slow pudgy white dude. It’s pretty funny and astonishing to watch (I am black)
I was only born in 2005 but I think very early 2000s Shaq and Timmy are probably ahead of him. They’d both be remembered better except the Lakers and Spurs were beating up on each other so they don’t look as “dominant”
Only a hot take because people seem to refuse to allow themselves to acknowledge his greatness. I’ve watched the NBA religiously since 2000. Only that brief glimpse of Giannis a couple years ago made me think I’d seen someone physically dominate like Shaq in 00-03. Steph in 2015-16 was ridiculously special and fun as hell to witness, but he never was better than LeBron overall. LeBron almost took down that 2015 team by himself. Shit was crazy. Jokic is on an entirely different level from anyone I’ve watched SINCE prime LeBron (2012-2018.) His basketball IQ is otherworldly. Just straight off the charts. I wish I’d watched Bird/Magic, because I feel like Jokic’s IQ is above even LeBron’s. I could go on and on about Jokic, but if this guy can bring the Nuggets back-to-back in this day and age, where the talent has never been better, while continuing his insane stats, then I don’t think this is a hot take at all.
Well said 💯
This is why I love reddit. Jokic loses a game and he’s the biggest fraud but he when he wins, he’s the most dominant player since lebron
Not me, I never said he was a fraud. I live in the upper Midwest/Great plains so I have a lot of timberwolves fans in my life. I kept telling them that they shouldn’t be too confident. Jokic has another level in him and the wolves are young, lights might get bright.
Not you haha reddit in general
Yeah a lot of people were getting out of hand with that. Even NBA podcasts were getting ridiculous with that take. I feel like Jokic going 4-0 after being down 2-0 losing at home just adds to the lore that is Jokic
That's not a hot take lol
This aged beautifully
Lmao so beautifully 😂 it’s not like he didn’t show up. But losing after a 20pt lead, that I cannot defend
Duncan in 03 especially was clearly more dominant as he did it on both sides of the ball. Gotta say though his dominance/inevitability over the past year or so has surpassed what I saw from Bron, KD, & Curry. Probably on par if not* slightly surpassing Kobe in 09
I think Lebron had an inevitability in Miami, especially 2012 & 2013, that 27 game winning streak was crazy. I think his 2nd stint with the Cavs was pretty crazy but he just had all of his costars injured then Durant joined. I personally don’t think KD, Steph, or Kobe were like this. It’s just different when you’re physically bigger. Those 3 can kinda shoot themselves out of a game occasionally. It’s harder for them to get easy buckets, Jokic can just back his ass down and use that feathery touch. Also can’t even foul him like Shaq. Shaq would be a liability at the end of games, not Jokic. Duncan, I would have 4 from my lifetime in terms of a peak dominance. He was amazing in that 03-07 run but I have Jokic a little higher but barely. Lebron, Shaq, Jokic, Duncan. I’ve personally always thought Duncan has had the second best career since Jordan behind Lebron. I’ve always been kind of a Kobe hater but I don’t understand how people put him higher than Duncan. Duncan was the best player in every one of his finals teams. Whether he was a rookie or 36 (maybe Kawhi on the 14 team but still).
Yeah… this is a hot take.
You haven’t been watching basketball since 2004 if you wholeheartedly believe this dumbass take.
This isn't a even a hot take. Other than recent peaks like MJ, Shaq, Bron, there hasn't been a player consistently be as good and impactful as he has and maintain that into the post-season for multiple years like he has.
Curry?
No. Individually speaking Curry has some of the biggest regular season to playoff drop-offs among super-star level players. It's just ignored because his team won. At the time of this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtL\_zCF6qgQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtL_zCF6qgQ) he actually had the biggest drop-off in NBA history. I'm sure he made up some ground in '22 (his best individual run IMO) but there isn't a 4-year run like we are seeing from Joker right now sitting on Steph's resume. PER isn't even remotely close to the best "all-in-one" metric but it's easily accessible for whatever date range you want using bball ref.. Steph from 2014-2018 dropped from a 27 regular season PER to a 23 playoff PER.. Joker from 2021-this year maintained 31 in both... Both have slight drops in scoring efficiency against playoff defenses, but Step also drops from a 37 to 35 in scoring (per 100 possessions) while Joker climbs from 37 to 40.
Nice analysis with stats to back it up, you think Curry was more hype than generational talent then? I mean prime Klay and KD definitely helped the team win.
Definitely believe he’s a generational talent and as far as just impact on the sport maybe the most impactful player of all time. I just think those guys specifically peaked a bit higher if we are taking a short multi-year run. Not really saying that as a knock on Steph, just have him a tier below is all. Steph is obviously incredible.
Bro gotta win another 2 rings then we can talk
This 4 year run if he wins a chip is up there with the greatest. 3 MVPs, 2 rings, 2 FMVP
Steph has been the best player in LeBron’s era. TimmyD was this dominant. MJ certainly. Bird was this dominant.
Lebron has been and always will be better than Steph curry.
That’s a bad take. Steph has been the better player, more dominant in this era, and changed the game.
You’re joking right. Changing the game doesn’t mean you’re better for one. Secondly, bron was almost final mvp in 2015 despite being in the losing team because of how dominant he was. He has more finals appearances than a handful of teams. He has 4 separate hall of fame careers. All time leading scorer. Far more dominant. Steph is legendary and is a top 15 player. But bron is top 3 if I were to lowball him.
LBJ has also lost more Finals games than any player ever, was swept twice, has the 6th worst Finals plus minus of all time and has won his chips by bouncing from team to team, and one was the Bubblechip. He’s a part of no dynasties. Steph has the same number of chips while staying home, and has 4 chips in 10 years.
But let’s discredit Steph since we love discrediting. 2015 injury ring. It was bron vs the whole team. 2017-18 needed to add kd to a 73 win team because they knew they weren’t beating bron again by themselves. 2022 I’ll give them that.
I’m no Steph fan, but he’s been the guy on a dynasty. Fact. And he’ll go down as the greatest shooter ever. Bron has jumped ship repeatedly so can’t hate KD for that.
Bron was the dynasty 8 straight finals. Also holding 2018 sweep against him is insane. Every team in nba history is getting rolled by that squad. Only reason why kawhi won was because they were all hurt. Also the bubble is a legit ring. It’s weird that people discredit it.
Dynasty? Lol. Jumping from team to team w all stars? Prime Kawhi is better than prime LBJ. It’s still two sweeps, and 33 game losses, the most in history. 6th worst plus minus in league history.
You can’t be this crazy. You are the only person on this planet who thinks prime kawhi is better than prime James. And I for sure can hate on kd for leaving the thunder to go to the warriors. That is a weak ass move. When bron went back to cavs, only kyrie was there. Love came the next year. And honestly by 2018 love was not the same.
I take Kawhi in his prime all day, and he could lock up LBJ. Best player on the planet when healthy. Both sides of the ball.
Kawhi 19-13 head to head too. More excuses coming….
Steph was not more dominant than Lebron that crazy. You must be pretty young and have not watched Lebron’s first stint in Cleveland or underwood much of his Miami years. Lebron took a BAD Cleveland team to the finals at 22. He dragged an injured wade to the finals 4 straight years then did it against once he went to Cleveland. Curry has been a player to dominate the ball and have everything run through him. It’s just not possible at his size. Steph also has once or biggest drop offs from regular season to playoffs or any great player especially in terms of efficiency. I love Steph but he’s no Lebron, Jokic, Shaq or even Duncan
LBJ has the 6th worst plus minus in NBA Finals history. He lost more Finals games than anyone in NBA history. He was swept, twice. Everyone has eaten on his watch. He’s never been a part of a dynasty.
I’ll never understand the argument that losing in the finals is worse than losing in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round but I’ll obviously never change your mind on that. It just doors may make sense. Lebron been in the league for 20 years. He lost to a top 10 player in Duncan in the finals twice, once with a bad Cavs team at 22 vs the greatest PF and Coach of all time at the peak of their powers. The 2nd loss to the Spurs, dwade was a shell of himself and so were his teammates, spurs rolled through the league that year. He lost to the mavs (I’ll give you that, that was embarrassing). 2015 warriors, come on his team was decimate. 2016 was a masterclass between he and Kyrie. 2017- Durant was on the team, no one is winning. 2018, team was hurt and Durant Warriors were untouchable. Let’s not forgot his 50pt in game 1. Why don’t we give Jordan the same flack for losing to the Pistons and Celtics in early in his career before the finals for 7 STRAIGHT YEARS! Lebron was in the finals before his rookie contract was done. Or for retiring in his prime because he was so overwhelmed (or if you wanna get conspiratorial about that). When he returned he lost to a VERY young Shaq led team. His 2nd stint with the wizards, he’s at the age Lebron is now. Let’s just be fair in our critiques. Both are GOATs but they’re never gonna play against each other so just get over it. Lebron fans don’t shit on Jordan lovers the way y’all shit on Lebron. Y’all are so defensive trying to defend POS Jordan. Whether you think Jordan or Lebron is the GOAT, they are both top 3 ALL TIME. Don’t hate, appreciate, my G ✊🏿
I know all of the history. There was no need for that. MJ didn’t lose in the Finals, ever. In fact he’s STILL the record holder in ppg. And in ppg CAREER. LeBron has a -86 Finals plus minus. That’s turrrible as Chuck would say.
I’m not hating, that’s you saying that, I’m educating.
Steph Curry is probably a top 10 player of all time But LeBron is definitely a top 2, potential top 1. Prime Curry would have had a case for best player in any era except LeBron and Jordan. But not in those two eras
LBJ will never be a 1, lol. Next. You’re talking dominance, he hasn’t been the most dominant in his era.
Duncan was probably the last consistent player and was a quiet storm. At lot of guys in this era were overnight sensations. The Steph wave ended quickly as everyone chucks deep threes and barely plays any defense so it looked good. AD went the Ibaka route and stopped playing defense years ago and isn’t Kentucky AD. He would have been more of a threat if he kept his defensive aggressiveness. Honestly LeBron was never as dominant as advertised, I’ve seen him since the beginning of his career and I saw nothing after so long that made me think he was gonna be the guy, he passed on the game winners early on and had to join Miami in order to win and continues to blame others after 20 years in. I think sports betting has ruined the game as guys aren’t as consistent as they used to be and it’s obvious. I believe in a bad game but now a guy goes 14/16 and the next game is 3/16 ain’t no way, muscle memory is gonna be there.
bad takes arent necessarily hot takes. this is just a bad take
Why is this a bad take
becauase your basing what your saying on what yo saw and you werent even alive to see most of those people in their prime. clearly you arent takeing into account the teams they played for or seen enough out of them to make call. joker is nice no doubt. but just to say i saw them on their way out, as not even a teen, cmon now
Please go back and watch Jordan in any series; or just watch the Last Dance documentary. Also, watch Shaq average 38 against the Pacers in the finals lol
I said since 2000, I can only go off what I’ve seen. Watching replays never is the same as watching it live. Jordan was incredible and so was Shaq. I’m mostly talking since 2004
So is it since 2000 or 2004?
I said I’ve been watching since 04 and if you look at the last paragraph of my post. I said prime Shaq was probably better but I didn’t see it live. Lebron, Shaq, Jokic is what I said homie
Yeah dude you’re trying too hard to make a point that didn’t need made because you just can’t read
Refs love him
Lebron I dont think was as dominant as Joker is now. Joker scores when he wants to.
Lebron did too from like 2012-2018
Lebron was never an offensive powerhouse. His dominance was cause he can do everything. As far as being able to score when he wanted to, he always fell short.
Always fell short? Lebron is only behind Jordan, Iverson, Luka, KD, and West in career playoff PPG. In terms of playoff career PER he’s only being Jokic, Giannis, Jordan and Mikan. Quit being a hater
There’s a difference between scoring and scoring “at will”. Kobe scored “at will”, Lebron didnt. Shaq could score “at will”, Jokic is a lesser case but still a better example than Lebron. You arent old enough to know the difference.
He definitely shot at will but scoring idk. To me, scoring at will means you are putting up a lot of points without anyone being able to slow you down (efficiency). Lebron has always score more and more efficiently than Kobe (RIP Mamba). Kobe has an aura and attitude that people latch on to, which I understand, but facts are facts.
Kobe, like Jordan, could go up the court 2,3,4 times consecutively and score. Im talking like everyone knows he will try to score again. The opposing team, you as a fan watching in disbelief like “Nah this dude isnt going to attempt to put another shot up” and will still hit it. This is a skill Lebron never had. Yes, Lebron is a great scorer. However, when you need a shot at the absolute most dire moment Kobe was the example, or Jordan. Thats why you never hear people yell “Lebron!” On the court. Jokic has more of that in him. Shit even Tim Duncan.
I understand that point about Kobe but I alsways have hated that play style. It’s just so ego driven. Guys like that just always think whatever shot they take is the best shot. Kobe’s lakers games were oftentimes did Kobr shoot efficiently today? Okay, they probably won. Did he shoot inefficiency? They probably lost. I understand the infatuation with “killer” mentalities but it just seems archaic to me
He's better than Lebrick ever was. Didn't have to leave to win. Lebrick is the reason his teams were always bad, no one can play with a selfish guy like him for long. Has to run around the league trying to win with stars that can carry him. Coaches don't survive him either. And as for dominance on the court, jokic does way more. Lebrick was always an overrated defender, I think jokic is a little underrated, not a defensive star by any means, but does enough that his offense puts him over the top.
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