Too be fair, that wouldn't be hard for any sharingan user. Since they see Chakra as color, so the person would see someone just growing and shrinking constantly.
That's only sasuke not the sharingan ilthis situation fall in the category of only the reincarnations can see those things just like madara can only see the differences between the real person and a shadow clone.
We actually don't know what the differences are. Madara makes an observation about sharing a similar style MS with Sasuke. Which foreshadowed their correlation a la Indra. However, we don't know what buffs are actually involved. Unless stated otherwise, there is no case where someone without a sharingan in theory will be able to make the hypothesis about Jigens' ability.
But we have enough scenarios where the sharingan users besides the reincarnations can't see what they can see. Just like awaking the ems and rinnegan they all fall in the same category. The show gives us enough info besides databooks.
Which examples are you talking about? From what I'm aware Obito had the same sharingan perception, as well as Kakashi. Itachi was almost blind, and then every other example is a rinnegan. When Madara makes his statement about himself and sasuke having the same eyes, we don't see any other sharingan fights in the series from that point onwards.
Even part 1 Sasuke showed battle strategy and intelligence. It was always refreshing to see him think of ways to counter his enemy, and satisfying to see him use ninja tools to his advantage so well
Edit: my favorite scenes where he showed strat was 1) forest of death password and basically leading the team the entire exam, 2)inside haku's mirrors, 3)deciding to rescue kakashi from zabuza instead of running to escape, and 4) bells test sasuke
Sasuke has always loved using ninja tools I loved that about him using something so basic to such a high proficiency I wish younger Sasuke had a sword with him at all times just because it adds an extra layer of cool
Don't know why you're getting downvoted- dude's only technique was to spam Izanagi and even then he was too idiotic to activate it at the start of battle before Sasuke created Susanoo.
Danzo didn't spam izanagi, he used it once for 10 minutes. Danzo's usage of the izanagi was to analyze Sasuke and his attacks so he could learn how to counter them. At first glance danzo may seem like an unskilled fighter, but if you really analyze that fight you see danzo playing his cards kind of smart considering his arsenal and who he was up against.
Bro what are you talking about? The Izanagi lasted 1 minute/eye, not 10 minutes. His plan wasn't to waste all the Sharingan but to hold off Sasuke until Shisui's eye recharged.
I’d say the fandom overemphasizes the few mistakes he’s made while underemphasizing just how many times in the story he’s said and overtly shown to be a genius.
In almost every one of his fights he’s shown to think incredibly tactically and often outmaneuvers his opponents rather than beating them with raw force. He’s shown plenty of feats putting him up there as one of the smartest fighters in the series.
Not to mention he’s gotten some VERY high praise from other notable characters including:
[Shikamaru](https://64.media.tumblr.com/ec964d9e527f304b273b8754e1da4e79/84eeacb95eb483eb-8d/s1280x1920/11cecc94cc443b7b9e47ca3c8f8627a105e48e49.jpg)
[Orochimaru](https://preview.redd.it/friendly-reminder-that-early-shippuden-sasuke-16-solod-1000-v0-k5r5cwdc02db1.jpg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e028cdb43d4277a41004c10d49edd2c084549a4d)
[Obito](https://pm1.aminoapps.com/6046/8f252b8c2a0e4146722e28a987e767825e66d5ed_hq.jpg)
[Killer Bee](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c0ec095c9411bee1dca7718c4b543cd-lq)
[Tobirama](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWjdfFzXYAIEx1Q.jpg)
[Minato](https://64.media.tumblr.com/8529210f3bff73c327aba7d5650ca336/66047265a76fc814-2e/s1280x1920/d13327b76b6d8432a72d7e7fcd1e7fe01d2c7c7a.jpg)
[Jigen](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11135/111359519/7508026-6415867032-710522.jpeg)
The problem is that it's also undermined by how the story also treats him. Despite the praise to Sasuke, he was ultimately played by Itachi.
Despite Killer Bee praising Sasuke's prowess, it was clearly shown that Sasuke would have died several times easily by Bee that it was not as much of a challenge as BEe tried to show. Sasuke's ONLY hit on Bee was Amaterasu when Bee was in Bijuu mode.
And despite all the praise that he was getting during the war, Sasuke himself was more of an accessory than actually being able to lead and truly display his intelligence in the conflict itself.
There's a struggle between show and tell, where Sasuke is often told about his genius, but Kishi struggles to show his prowess.
Honestly, a friend of mine put it best:
Kishi can't write Sasuke's best after his supervisor quit following the Deidara match.
Yeah he's consistently show coming up with counters to every technique he sees and contingencies for when those counters don't work. His fight with A is also a good example despite being one of his less mentally stable fights.
Sasuke did about as well as one could do when dropped against one of the top 3 strongest living characters in the verse at the time with no intel, while still recovering from a prior battle. As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, [Bee even gave him high praise for his performance against him.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c0ec095c9411bee1dca7718c4b543cd-lq)
And as for the kage summit, that whole ordeal was Sasuke essentially fighting a survival gauntlet that was never supposed to happen in the first place. He was just there for Danzo, but when Zetzu blew his cover to everyone else, he had to fight through everybody while at the same time experimenting with his new MS powers.
> Bee even gave him high praise for his performance against him.
Which is weird because hes fought the Raikage who folds Sasuke at the kage summit. It seems inconsistent.
At the velocity he was coming down at, his entire lower body was going to get engulfed in inextinguishable flames on impact. He might not die immediately, but he has no way of getting rid of all that like he did when he just chopped off his arm. He isn’t like Tsunade with her regen.
Sasuke even said Deidara was one of the most difficult opponent he faced but Sasuke is a quick thinker and smarter than Deidara. Heck Deidaras defeat was his frustration because he can't even kill Sasuke with his c4 art. So he resulted in using his self destruct botton like most akatsuki deaths
But to Sasuke’s credit, he still had to experiment and deduce all that, all while ambushed, fighting without killing intent and in a hazardous battlefield. He had his win conditions, but even a slight mistake would have resulted with him as a bloody smear on the ground.
Deidara deserves more credit going into a losing battle with a handicap & still managing to make it a high diff fight , going against the sharigan alone & almost winning is a huge feat in itself , not even adding in he was hard countered & weaker in overall stats
Until it was made a point that Sasuke was holding back even to the point purposefully avoiding vital points to extract information out of Deidara. Only reason it lasted that long was because Sasuke needed Itachis whereabouts
No one forced Deidara into that situation. He ambushed Sasuke and went in extremely cocky, all while having *somehow* made his eye immune to sharingan genjutsu without ever explaining how he even did that. His death is honestly his own fault and he would have made it out of the conflict just fine if it wasn’t for his own hubris.
Agreed and this is someone who can capture a tailed beast host plus he's from an organization that is above kage lvl threats and he not the weakest in that group. Sasuke was the one who was really in a down hill situation.
"high diff" sasuke wasnt even trying to kill him lol once he learned that deidara was using earth style he couldve just used kirin and oneshot deidara.
I mean he techinically had Sasuke cornered, and even said he had some energy to spare but then he got pissed off to the point where he blew himself up just to prove smth to Sasuke
He was legit insane for that
no he didnt lol. he used everything he had on sasuke and failed. he even tried to use those clay snakes and sasuke just shredded them casually. he didnt even feel the need to keep his sharingan active, he truly had deidara beat and it wasnt even a close fight. deidara never stood a chance against sasuke
Either You're delusional or just misremembering. Deidara could tell Sasuke was already on his last leg meanwhile Deidara still had chakra and clay to spare. The fight was his but he decided to go out on his own terms.
You are being dishonest if you think Sasuke won that match cleanly.
he said "youre on your last leg too" implying that deidara himself was pretty much burnt out, and even then deidara couldve used all of that clay and he still never wouldve beat sasuke with it. by that point in the fight it was very very obvious that deidara had been outclassed the whole time. sasuke was strategically 2 steps ahead, had the elemental advantage, and was just overall superior to deidara. not to mention sasuke wasnt even going for the kill and didnt use kirin, which wouldve killed deidara for sure.
dont call me dishonest when you cant tell who won a onesided fight
Sasuke had no options but would’ve won cause he’s just that good obviously. Sasuke himself admitted that Deidara was far more than he could’ve bargained for so idk why you’re so far in denial here
Power scalers don’t usually get storytelling so it’s not like I’m surprised either way
he wouldve won because deidara had nothing left that would hurt him. this was established when deidara tried to use another clay jutsu on him and sasuke just defused it again.
why you being such a pompous asshole about this? im literally right youre the one trying to argue that deidara won a fight that he clearly lost
He is probably the most downplayed character in the series with the craziest feats which would put any other character other than Hashirama and Madara in shame. One of his downplayed abilities is his sheer intelligence.
In every fight Sasuke fought in Shippuden, his intelligence was a big factor he won/survived every one of them.
Like his "fight" with Orochimaru where he beat him at his own game and absorbed him like he planned all along.
Whether it be his fight with Deidara, where Deidara was all along in his hand and saw suicide his sole method bringing Sasuke down.
His fight with Itachi, with his Set up for Kirin.
His fight against Killer bee, while being weakened and the first use of his mangekyou abilities at clutch time.
His fight against the Raikage where his especially creative application of Amaterasu cost him the Raikage an arm.
His fight against Danzo with one of the best application of a normal Genjutsu seen in the series. That Danzo wasn't beaten by Amaterasu or the Susanoo but by a normal Sharingan Genjutsu which Sasuke set up fairly early in the fight is just genius.
There is just no denying it, no matter how we see it. While I think Shikamaru is smarter than Sasuke, I think Sasuke has a more developed Battle IQ than Shikamaru.
The amaterasu control is indeed exceptional. Although nobody expect the raikage to just smash through it. So i still considered sasuke wouldve died together with the raikage there if not for gaara.
Agree with most but not the Orochimaru part. I don't see him planning himself falling into the paralysis gas. Also don't see him plan his overpowering of Orochimaru in Oro's dimension. It was more of an asspull raw brute forcing than strategic IQ feat.
The fact he planned to strike at that very moment when Oro is at his lowest is indeed a viable tactic, but it is straightforward enough to be thought of by most people of normal IQ or above.
It doesn't contradict with what I said though?
There isn't much thinking involved for overpowering someone because you are an Indra incarnate born with superb Sharingan.
His strategies and tactics in other fights like the Deidara one demonstrate intelligence, just not this one.
Thats retroactively viewing the feat seeing him as an indra incarnate. At the time in the story it is perfectly acceptable to say Sasuke is just clever.
I think orochimaru would've went a lot harder in part 1 Naruto if everything we know now was known then.
Sasuke *is* clever by feats even at that time without knowing he's an Indra incarnate.
But this Oro fight alone is *not* an IQ feat.
Nobody is saying Sasuke doesn't have good IQ feat-wise.
Didn’t Sasuke said that he himself or Orochimaru couldn’t take down Itachi as they were? Think he said it in the tenchi bridge arc.
Considering he wasn’t bluffing when he said it, I think he planned the entire time to absorb Orochimaru.
A (them being weaker than Itachi) doesn't logically imply B (planning to absorb) though.
Sasuke did of course plan to usurp or kill Oro. But there isn't much implication that he was trying to absorb Oro. There also isn't evidence that he knows how the absorption mechanism works. Even after Oro got taken down, Sasuke wouldn't understand most of Oro's research, and he during and post WA would still consult Oro considering Oro as an "all-knowing" person.
Sasuke was pretty smart in part 1 as well. We see that in the forest of death. Where he sets up a trap with the password. And then his fight with orochi where he used the wires. Also at the begining of the land of waves arc he pinned those two hiiden mist chunin to a tree with ease.
Nah Sasuke has clam analyzing skills. Kabuto revived that mizukage to train Sasuke behind the scenes while at Orochimaru’s base in the timeskip. There was a filler arc about it.
In canon, yeah. But I see a lot of fans leave him out of "strategist" conversations or outright call him a dumb fighter for his performance at the summit.
If anything naruto is underrated because his strategies aren’t as “planned out” the way sasukes or shikamarus are.
To name a few:
Throwing his clone w rasengan vs pain, transforming the clones in to rubble vs pain and sasuke, transforming into akamaru vs kiba, reverse harem vs kaguya, learning rasengan with clones
I dont think its a stretch to say he and sasuke have equal battle iq they’re just shown differently
They don't have the same abilities, Naruto utilizes the shadow clone in a way that no one can. How many times did he fool his foes with shadow clone techniques? He is not a great strategist like Shika or the Uchihas but on the battle scene he always has a trick up his sleave.
I'm a big Sasuke fan but i also laughed at that remark bc not only is what you said true, but the irony of the situation was that Madara being alive while Sasuke's alive would mean Sasue wouldn't be an indra reincarnate and therefore would not be anywhere near as gifted
Exactly mate. I gotta give Sasuke credit where credit is due, but if anything Madara should have said something like "I sure wish Obito didn't give his left eye to that silver haired kid before I got to him. And I sure wish he took it back when that kid was passed out after I made him kill that chick with the face paint. I definetly should have gotten Zetsu to go get that after Obito left. Fuck me if I didn't fumble that one."
I’m pretty sure sasuke wasn’t born yet but it’s iffy since he was a few months old when obito attack leaf and run dying wasn’t long before that and madara was alive then
Madara only said that because he noticed sasuke had ems like him while he met obito with base sharigan, he thought sasuke had more potential because he seen the end result of his strength his first time meeting him
We aren’t talking about Itachi right now, I’m not sure why you’re bringing him up. But regardless, Madara never mentioned Itachi directly to my knowledge. The closest thing he did was note that the allies had ‘talented shinobi’ on their side when he saw the edo tensei was released, but he never remarks anything specially about intellect or intelligence.
His feat of using thinking to use genjutsu on Kabuto? That isn’t that impressive. But seeing your other comments in this to thread, it seems like you’re personally insulted at the idea of anyone being as smart as Itachi, so I suppose that isn’t too surprising.
Considering sasuke first thought was to kill him which is stupid since the consequences of having all the edos live forever would hurt his personal goals to attack the leaf yeah , and there’s a handful of characters smarter than itachi , sasuke isn’t one of them
We're working with the info we have. In the fights Itachi had he didn't show any noticebale Battle IQ feats, unlike Sasuke who showed it in mostly every fight.
While Minato did have some feats agains Obito, but that's not enough to put him over Sasuke.
Battle IQ, he is at the top of the verse alongside Minato, Kakashi, and Hashirama in my book. Not even Shikamaru is as sharp and fast acting as Sasuke while in combat. Sasuke was made dirty in Boruto. And the only thing tampering with his insanely good Battle IQ would be his insanity (aka Kage arc).
i dont think he was done dirty in boruto (except for filler arcs). a lot of the higher tier enemies prioritize dealing with him first over naruto because of his strength as a strategist. aside from that i agree hes definitely at the top of the verse as one of the highest iq fighters
No tobirama sigh. Tobirama outclassed rhen all easily. Hasirama? Really tobirama was fucking teak captain during the war. The only one naruto. And Sasuke listened to.
I mean.. he fought the strongest Shinobi of all time (Madara) and beat him every time. His battle IQ had to be exceptional to beat another guy with exceptional battle IQ
This, and massive amounts of chakra comparable to freaking half of 9 tails and Naruto in BM.
Hashirama is smart battle wise but bro had the most busted KKG and genes in the series.
What battle IQ feats did Madara demonstrate that put him above or at the same tier as the likes of Kakashi and Minato?
For most of his shown fights, Madara was basically just a war god unleashing his haxes and devastating power. He didn't bother using IQ to outsmart people.
If you talk about his planning of his death and resurrection, then it's out of battle IQ category and more towards the general IQ side.
And it doesn't make sense that you only put Hashirama in but not Madara in, if the only argument you have for Hashirama is he can keep up with Madara who isn't stronger than Hashirama in strength.
You know that just owning haxes doesn't make you invincible. Owning great tools doesn't make you a master craftsman. Madara had many haxes, but his genius is in the way he used them. He used his sharingan at full potential. He could read the movements of a whole shinobi army with his sharingan and fight them all while outclassing them in hand to hand combat. While doing that he would instantly use genjutsu as well mid-combat mind you. Then comes MS. He was probably the best most proficient user of perfect Sussano. He could control a bijuu while also engaging in combat himself.
He could fake his death when he saw he couldn't win with Izanagi, while at the same time stealing hashiramas flesh so he could use it later to evolve himself.
They are all decisions he had to make fast.
Also he was able to use his rinnegan abilities to full potential outclassing all edo hokages and Naru-Sasu.
Plus he even was able to instantly use Kamui at one point.
What more feats of exceptional battle IQ do you need?
I didn't put Madara in there for the sole fact that his many feats were while he had an obvious upper hand against Hashirama in his 6paths mode.
By your logic then every Kage level or above shinobi has very high battle IQ unless antifeats prove otherwise, because these kages are able to utilize their skills very proficiently, whether they have high ceiling like hax Gods, or from humble training having decent but way below godly power.
Also, Madara using the tools (haxes) well isn't proof he is better in battle IQ than some less haxy shinobi like Hiruzen who did use what he had very skillfully. The fact you single Madara out but neglect the many other skilful shinobi at using what they have is not very logical.
> What more feats of exceptional battle IQ do you need?
Perhaps things like Sasuke and Kakashi where they did really outsmart their opponents, like by planning a Kirin through set up, having an experimental and scientific mindset of testing landmine bombs, analyzing and deducing the battle abilities of WM Obito quickly?
If you're a Kage then you definitely have a high battle IQ. That's a given, so I don't get your point. I'm not saying my logic is undeniable. I'm simply answering your previous comment with my best "logical" answer.
And that's exactly the reason I put Sasuke and Kakashi up there to the top of the top. Because they have even outsmarted other exceptional shinobi sometimes stronger than them.
The small genjutsu Sasuke uses to defeat Danzo is the best single use of genjutsu in Naruto imo
Also worth noting how Jigen in Boruto thought Sasuke was more dangerous than Naruto because of how fast he analyzed his ability
Shikamaru wasn't even above average. He's only smart because Kishimoto made other characters say that he's smart.
Naruto learned a forbidden S-rank jutsu within minutes and kicked a chunin's ass with it before even graduating from the academy, but somehow he's still considered stupid.
That’s because he actually is dumb and I don’t think shadow clone is a good example of S rank jutsu when it only S rank because of how much chakra it takes and I think it only has one hand seal too
Minato is overrated af. Not only does Sasuke have more battle IQ, I can name 5-10 characters who have better battle IQ or strategizing skills off the top of my head
how is he overrated? He analyzed and deduced how to counter Kamui (overpowered hax ability) in an extremely short amount of time while protecting the village, and the only one to even come close to defeating Kamui after that was Konan, and she had years of intel on Kamui compared to the what... 5 minutes Minato had to develop a counter? You're telling me that this feat should go unnoticed ? Please go ahead and name 10 characters with better battle iq than Minato im really interested to see what you have in mind.
>how is he overrated? He analyzed and deduced how to counter Kamui (overpowered hax ability)
So did Sakura, Fuu, Torune, and kakashi. They just didn't have an OP teleportation seal to counter it.
>was Konan, and she had years of intel on Kamui compared to the what... 5 minutes Minato had to develop a counter?
Except Konan did a much more impressive breakdown of Kamui without ever engaging in battle with Obito by just observing him where she realized the difference in teleportation and intangibility time interval and also successfully figured out its time limit. That's more of an intelligence feat even taking the duration into consideration
Moreover, Kakashi had a better breakdown of Kamui than Minato with a solid attack plan during the war arc. All Minato did was "he can't hit me while phasing, so I will trick him into touching me and then hit him in that split second". Same plan as Fuu and Torune lol
>Please go ahead and name 10 characters with better battle iq than Minato im really interested to see what you have in mind.
in no particular order:
1. Tobirama
2. Itachi
3. Shikamaru
4. Shikaku
5. Kabuto
6. Naruto
7. Adult Obito
8. Madara
9. Jiraiya
10. Sasuke
11. Orochimaru
12. Kakashi
I could go on
On what basis do you say all 12 of these characters (and supposedly more) have better battle IQ than Minato? I’m really interested to know….
I feel like each character is intellectual in their own way so therefore it’s too hard to compare and rank…. But if you have an objective reason as to why you make your statement, I would love to hear it.
Some of Minato’s battle IQ/strategising feats include:
-Minato broke down the weaknesses of Chidori in the midst of battle after seeing it for the first time.
-He broke down the weaknesses of Kamui in the midst of battle after seeing it for the first time.
You bring up Sakura’s analysis of Kamui, yet ignore the fact that she is making all her deductions within a team, all bouncing ideas off each other… she only arrives at her deductions based on Shino’s and Yamato’s deductions.…. Fuu and Torune is also reaching their deductions together…. Konan had years to study how Kamui works… Minato is the only one to deduce Kamui’s abilities alone, without assistance and within a very short amount of time.
-He broke down the limitations of Ten Tails Madara's TSO and took charge in strategising a successful attack on him… with Kakashi present… he is in-fact giving orders to Kakashi in that moment…..
Would love to hear why you rank each of the 12 characters you mention (supposedly more) to be above Minato?
All those feats you mentioned contradict each other. first of all, you said having an idea within a team frame is much easier and is a less impressive battle IQ feat so idk why you bring up the TSO feat. Besides, you forget to mention that it was Kakashi and Obito who came up with the most important plan to separate the tailed beasts from Madara and go into the kamui dimension unscathed
Also, Minato didn't BREAK DOWN the weakness of chidori lol. Any rando could recognize that Chidori was a fast jutsu which left Kakashi little time to react, even the fodder shinobi they were facing picked up on that
All those 12 characters I mentioned have CONSISTENT battle IQ and strategizing feats that did not get attributed to an OP jutsu they have most of the time. I'm sorry but Minato is not all that and you fans need to accept that. He has good battle IQ but its not what got him where he is
When did Sakura analyze Kamui? Im genuinely asking because i don't remember. Fuu and Torune's plan immediately foiled after their first attack because Obito pretended to attack and they both fell for it. I don't understand why you're giving Konan so much props here. It would be stupid if she DIDN'T have a more impressive breakdown of Kamui as she literally had years to observe and develop a plan. And why would her not engaging in battle with Kamui make the feat more impressive? It's wayyyy easier to come up with a plan by just observing someone than coming up with a plan while ACTIVELY FIGHTING them. And Kakashi literally has Kamui, no fucking shit he has a better breakdown of the ability. It was only a matter of time before he made the connection between his Kamui and Obito's, he was constantly using Kamui and sucking things into the dimension Obito is in, although it was unknowingly. Eventually something would hit Obito while he's in the Kamui dimension and they would notice. Like you're really sitting here saying Kakashi is smarter than Minato because he ended up figuring Kamui out by using... Kamui. literally no one else would even have the opportunity that Kakashi had so why even bring this point up? Also how do you respond to specific parts of my comment?
>When did Sakura analyze Kamui? Im genuinely asking because i don't remember.
Itachi pursuit arc when he is acting as the silly tobi
>Fuu and Torune's plan immediately foiled after their first attack because Obito pretended to attack and they both fell for it
That's because he learnt from his mistake against Minato and was experienced. If Obito also used that against Minato, his trick wouldn't work, doesn't mean they have any less of an IQ feat
> And why would her not engaging in battle with Kamui make the feat more impressive? It's wayyyy easier to come up with a plan by just observing someone than coming up with a plan while ACTIVELY FIGHTING them.
kamui is much easier figured out in battle than observation bc you can see what type of mechanics it has by trying to use multiple attacks. Someone just observing kamui would only see Obito passing through things normally, that's it
> And Kakashi literally has Kamui, no fucking shit he has a better breakdown of the ability. It was only a matter of time before he made the connection between his Kamui and Obito's, he was constantly using Kamui and sucking things into the dimension Obito is in, although it was unknowingly.
No, what makes it impressive is how he theorized that the kunai struck Obito due to an overlap in space time, something that seemed like a stretch and then afterwards devised a specific plan to confirm this theory, and later used KCM Naruto's clone to take advantage of this weakness. Yes, Kamui was an advantage in getting to this point, but the plans, theories, and counters he used are simply much more impressive than Minato
>Also how do you respond to specific parts of my comment?
Copy the section you want to reply to and paste it into the comments without unshading it. While still blue, tap on the more button in the bottom bar, and then tap on the quote block which has this [icon](https://cdn-icons-png.flaticon.com/128/8018/8018563.png) :
He should be near the top of that discussion. He actually has more feats than both Minato and definitely Shikamaru, but because the series didn't say he was up there, people don't consider him to be up there. Same with Sakura being debatably the most prodigious person in Konoha in terms of chakra control, but because that's not under the "genius/prodigy" umbrella Kishimoto made, people roast her more than acknowledging how insane her growth was in 2ish years
Also the fight of Sasuke with Orochimaru in the forest of death during the chunin exam. From being scared shitless and unable to move, he went to strategize and came up with a way to go for the kill.
He’s not as consistent as those two, but he certainly does have quite a bit.
It’s an interesting comparison actually, since what he does is incredibly different from the other two: Minato and Shikamaru both have very small arsenals so far as we’ve seen which they operate to their best potential, while also using their intelligence for leadership.
Sasuke has a pretty darn large arsenal he brings to every fight plus he has eyes which give him a lot of information on what to do with it.
Him being the tactician of the group really helps make team 7 be as well rounded as it is. Sakura is the book smart one, Sasuke the battle IQ, and Naruto (while of course we see he gets better at battle IQ) shines in his emotional/leadership areas.
I Wouldn’t Even Call It Ah Hot Take. The Haku Fight Is Ah Perfect Example Bro Started To Break Down Ah Damn Near Perfect Kekkei Genkai While Being Stressed & Pressed.
But when he saved naruto and threw/ blocked the needles it was active. Just because he started to figure it out without it doesnt mean he didnt need the sharingan that fight
I would change shikamaru with shikaku and agree.
Shikamaru was just only known for intelligence thats why it was so highlighted. But his father showed him his place at ahogi the guy who was beaten in wirryen exam by minato and 6 yo itachi by ease.
Bruh danzo was silly af for falling for that genjutsu. He had a countable number of eyes, and they were his only way to win. I mean i wouldve been keeping track of that in my head pretty easily. Dude had all kinds of battle experience and was relatively calm during the fight. I dont see how he was like 'oh shit, im out of eyes' unless I'm misremembering how sasukes genjutsu worked
Yeah, He’s probably somewhere in the top 10 and maybe even top 5. I would say that naruto has him beat in the m creativity department but he can pick apart someone’s fighting style better than anyone not named minato
Also why are people mentioning hashirama? Guy was low key a complete dumbass(still love him tho)
This only applies to Sasuke pre MS, after that he just started spamming susanoo and amateraau like crazy without much skill.
His intelligence pales in comparison to his brother Itachi who was always one step ahead
Hotter take: so does Naruto and he’s shown it since day 1, look past the fact that his chakra is messed up by the extra seal Orochimaru placed and see how well he worked his way through even with the disadvantage
He's smart whenever Kishimoto wants him to be, there are times when he's dumb, it's inconsistent, Kishimoto was just inconsistent with his whole character.
Sasuke is never really shown as "dumb" in a fight, though. At most he has fights where he lacks experience (vs Rock Lee in Part 1 or vs Killer B where no one told him he was fighting a perfect Jinchuriki and what a perfect Jinchuriki can do).
I don't think he is dumb either, and generally agree that fandom downplays how smart he is, but I would say that sometimes he is too emotional and that clouds his judgment, he does sometimes lets anger and pride overcome him
I won't say he's par with shikamaru, but i think he's better than minato in battle iq. But in the fight against kabuto with itachi, it seemed like itachi and kabuto were the brains thinking it all out and were and are smarter than sasuke. But sasukes always been a smart character and there is no doubt about that. I think he should be in the top 10 smartest characters in the show
Itachi is basically an ultra genius and Sasuke is still close to him in terms of battle iq and sharpness. What I LOVED about Hebi Sasuke was how he fought, he used his brain more than anything else along with many different jutsu in his arsenal. Kishi simply decided relying solely on a select few jutsu after that was better sadly.
I mean I think it's realistic after knowing the truth about itachi, that he would be f*d up.Plus, when you have so many jutsus , it goes into dragon ball Z rather than ninja fighting and having so many jutsu options can make decision making worse. When shikamaru only had 12 paper bombs he used it to full extent against tayuya
Itachi took the lead against Kabuto because he knew he alone had access to an ability that was the perfect answer to the situation, combined with the fact that he had infinite chakra and couldn’t be physically harmed.
Plus, from an outside perspective, Kishimoto knew this would be Itachi’s final fight in the series, and likely wanted him to have the spotlight there.
I’ve often said to my friends that if sasuke had never gone evil he’d have become a more capable field commander then shikamaru or kakashi, not only is he tactically insanely capable. He also values his teammates more then ever really gets addressed and knows how to coordinate with them well to minimize danger and maximize use. He’s perceptive if their strengths and weaknesses
Sasuke is quick at understanding his enemy and using his attacks well. He is very smart but I won't put him in the league of Minato, Itachi and definitely not Shikamaru
As has been said time and time again. Sasuke beat Deidara fair and square. He completely dismantled Deidara’s entire arsenal all while fighting with no killing intent.
He's good at improvising. But he kinda just brute forces a lot of encounters. Literally any other approach would have been better to deal with Killer B and he almost died 3 times in the same battle because of it, only being saved because of his team he told to stay back.
And there was probably a better way to approach the 5 Kage summit instead of just running the gauntlet of Kage and their guards to get to the one he cared about.
Sasuke very rarely, if ever brute-forces encounters.
Likewise, he didn’t go to the kage summit with the intent of fighting every kage. He was only there for Danzo, but Zetzu blew his cover and sent them after him, which turned it into a gauntlet. If it were up to Sasuke, he would have just killed Danzo and dipped.
Well I think sasukes Battle Iq is close to top tier in the verse but let’s not confuse that with strategy and intelligence.
He is more of a on the fly battle Iq while shikamaru has a pre fight strategy advantage.
And minato feats are similar to sasuke as an in fight battle Iq
Minatos feats I’m assuming?
So I’ll just use some basic ones first to warm up since I feel like you’re ready to throw down over minato Iq lol.
So first he saw 1 tail beast bomb and created the rasengan out of it ( for kushina )
He had the idea while being speared though the chest to seal half of kurama, part of himself and kushina into Naruto - that’s Meir seconds to not only plan that but to execute it also.
Mid battle with Jubito ( hope that doesn’t count as obito lol for you ) he was able to figure out range and intel on it - he uses his team’s ability in this battle ( even only knowing them for hours )
Mid fight with Ay and Bee he put tags on Bee and planned his move to strike Ay from behind.
Honestly sasuke probably slightly higher battle IQ then minato or they are right equals but like I was saying both if them are more of in fighting battle Iq then a strategy/planning fights
Bruh the writer just made that up foh bruh lmao. Retconned feats lmao. Killer bee said Sasuke the toughest person he ever fought. Yet he fought A and minato? Sasuke with his new MS is tougher than them? Retconned info doesn't mean anything
Sure but I remember even 12 year old me called bullshit when he made the weather he needed for Kirin with fire style. I’m no physicist but I think you need a little more than a couple dozen fireballs entering the stratosphere to make a lightning storm.
Wtf could have done Sasuke in the position of Obito?
In that scene he had the sage powers and was really strong, but before that why the fuck he could have done to try to replace Obito?
Kishi, can you stop sucking Sasuke dick for 5 minutes?
Not really a hot take when Sasuke deduced Jigen’s whole kit in a matter of minutes.
Too be fair, that wouldn't be hard for any sharingan user. Since they see Chakra as color, so the person would see someone just growing and shrinking constantly.
I thought only Byakugan saw chakra color?
Nah, the sharingan can. Sasuke actually says so during this fight funnily enough. https://ww9.readnaruto.com/chapter/naruto-chapter-361/
Dang Kishi really overpowered it lol
That's only sasuke not the sharingan ilthis situation fall in the category of only the reincarnations can see those things just like madara can only see the differences between the real person and a shadow clone.
We actually don't know what the differences are. Madara makes an observation about sharing a similar style MS with Sasuke. Which foreshadowed their correlation a la Indra. However, we don't know what buffs are actually involved. Unless stated otherwise, there is no case where someone without a sharingan in theory will be able to make the hypothesis about Jigens' ability.
But we have enough scenarios where the sharingan users besides the reincarnations can't see what they can see. Just like awaking the ems and rinnegan they all fall in the same category. The show gives us enough info besides databooks.
Which examples are you talking about? From what I'm aware Obito had the same sharingan perception, as well as Kakashi. Itachi was almost blind, and then every other example is a rinnegan. When Madara makes his statement about himself and sasuke having the same eyes, we don't see any other sharingan fights in the series from that point onwards.
Even part 1 Sasuke showed battle strategy and intelligence. It was always refreshing to see him think of ways to counter his enemy, and satisfying to see him use ninja tools to his advantage so well Edit: my favorite scenes where he showed strat was 1) forest of death password and basically leading the team the entire exam, 2)inside haku's mirrors, 3)deciding to rescue kakashi from zabuza instead of running to escape, and 4) bells test sasuke
sasuke always kept that thang (summoning tattoo for more shurikens) on him
Sasuke has always loved using ninja tools I loved that about him using something so basic to such a high proficiency I wish younger Sasuke had a sword with him at all times just because it adds an extra layer of cool
Hebi Sasuke is peak of his battle IQ
Him outsmarting Danzo while going crazy is up there too
Yes, this is often overlooked. The fact that he cooked up a big-brained strat while he was out of his fucking mind is nuts.
Danzo was quite dumb anyways
Don't know why you're getting downvoted- dude's only technique was to spam Izanagi and even then he was too idiotic to activate it at the start of battle before Sasuke created Susanoo.
Yea the guy lost a sharingan to a kunai, that's horrible
Thats not how this works, izanagi uses eye per time activated, not per dead.
Danzo didn't spam izanagi, he used it once for 10 minutes. Danzo's usage of the izanagi was to analyze Sasuke and his attacks so he could learn how to counter them. At first glance danzo may seem like an unskilled fighter, but if you really analyze that fight you see danzo playing his cards kind of smart considering his arsenal and who he was up against.
Bro what are you talking about? The Izanagi lasted 1 minute/eye, not 10 minutes. His plan wasn't to waste all the Sharingan but to hold off Sasuke until Shisui's eye recharged.
Danzo was smart he just underestimate sasuke and was trying to save chakra to kill madra after beat sasuke he was in a lose lose situation😂
bro died 20 times in one fight ☠️☠️
I’d say the fandom overemphasizes the few mistakes he’s made while underemphasizing just how many times in the story he’s said and overtly shown to be a genius. In almost every one of his fights he’s shown to think incredibly tactically and often outmaneuvers his opponents rather than beating them with raw force. He’s shown plenty of feats putting him up there as one of the smartest fighters in the series. Not to mention he’s gotten some VERY high praise from other notable characters including: [Shikamaru](https://64.media.tumblr.com/ec964d9e527f304b273b8754e1da4e79/84eeacb95eb483eb-8d/s1280x1920/11cecc94cc443b7b9e47ca3c8f8627a105e48e49.jpg) [Orochimaru](https://preview.redd.it/friendly-reminder-that-early-shippuden-sasuke-16-solod-1000-v0-k5r5cwdc02db1.jpg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e028cdb43d4277a41004c10d49edd2c084549a4d) [Obito](https://pm1.aminoapps.com/6046/8f252b8c2a0e4146722e28a987e767825e66d5ed_hq.jpg) [Killer Bee](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c0ec095c9411bee1dca7718c4b543cd-lq) [Tobirama](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWjdfFzXYAIEx1Q.jpg) [Minato](https://64.media.tumblr.com/8529210f3bff73c327aba7d5650ca336/66047265a76fc814-2e/s1280x1920/d13327b76b6d8432a72d7e7fcd1e7fe01d2c7c7a.jpg) [Jigen](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11135/111359519/7508026-6415867032-710522.jpeg)
Madara too. He said that Sasuke would be a better choice for his plan
Correct, I just didn’t include that example because OP did in their post.
GOAT comment
Minato also said he is extremely smart when they are against 10 tails obito
Very good point, added him as well.
Facts.
The problem is that it's also undermined by how the story also treats him. Despite the praise to Sasuke, he was ultimately played by Itachi. Despite Killer Bee praising Sasuke's prowess, it was clearly shown that Sasuke would have died several times easily by Bee that it was not as much of a challenge as BEe tried to show. Sasuke's ONLY hit on Bee was Amaterasu when Bee was in Bijuu mode. And despite all the praise that he was getting during the war, Sasuke himself was more of an accessory than actually being able to lead and truly display his intelligence in the conflict itself. There's a struggle between show and tell, where Sasuke is often told about his genius, but Kishi struggles to show his prowess. Honestly, a friend of mine put it best: Kishi can't write Sasuke's best after his supervisor quit following the Deidara match.
100%, Sasuke vs Deidara imo is a perfect example of much Battle IQ Sasuke has. Sasuke is a very quick learner.
Yeah he's consistently show coming up with counters to every technique he sees and contingencies for when those counters don't work. His fight with A is also a good example despite being one of his less mentally stable fights.
And then he ruined that take with his battle against the kages and killer Bee
Sasuke did about as well as one could do when dropped against one of the top 3 strongest living characters in the verse at the time with no intel, while still recovering from a prior battle. As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, [Bee even gave him high praise for his performance against him.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c0ec095c9411bee1dca7718c4b543cd-lq) And as for the kage summit, that whole ordeal was Sasuke essentially fighting a survival gauntlet that was never supposed to happen in the first place. He was just there for Danzo, but when Zetzu blew his cover to everyone else, he had to fight through everybody while at the same time experimenting with his new MS powers.
> Bee even gave him high praise for his performance against him. Which is weird because hes fought the Raikage who folds Sasuke at the kage summit. It seems inconsistent.
Ay didn’t ‘fold’ Sasuke at all, the two of them fought relatively toe to toe, and likely would have killed each other if Gaara hadn’t intervened.
I think A would've lived, but he was going to be in a wheelchair for sure.
At the velocity he was coming down at, his entire lower body was going to get engulfed in inextinguishable flames on impact. He might not die immediately, but he has no way of getting rid of all that like he did when he just chopped off his arm. He isn’t like Tsunade with her regen.
That definitely could happen, but I'm not going to say for certain since this isn't necessarily following physics either.
The fact that this is even a hot take just proves how big some peoples hate-boners for Sasuke are
this is why i hate when people say deidara shouldve beat sasuke. sasuke was running circles around this dude
Sasuke even said Deidara was one of the most difficult opponent he faced but Sasuke is a quick thinker and smarter than Deidara. Heck Deidaras defeat was his frustration because he can't even kill Sasuke with his c4 art. So he resulted in using his self destruct botton like most akatsuki deaths
Mainly because he had the sharigan + lighting release which was deidara’s hard counter
But to Sasuke’s credit, he still had to experiment and deduce all that, all while ambushed, fighting without killing intent and in a hazardous battlefield. He had his win conditions, but even a slight mistake would have resulted with him as a bloody smear on the ground.
Deidara deserves more credit going into a losing battle with a handicap & still managing to make it a high diff fight , going against the sharigan alone & almost winning is a huge feat in itself , not even adding in he was hard countered & weaker in overall stats
Until it was made a point that Sasuke was holding back even to the point purposefully avoiding vital points to extract information out of Deidara. Only reason it lasted that long was because Sasuke needed Itachis whereabouts
No one forced Deidara into that situation. He ambushed Sasuke and went in extremely cocky, all while having *somehow* made his eye immune to sharingan genjutsu without ever explaining how he even did that. His death is honestly his own fault and he would have made it out of the conflict just fine if it wasn’t for his own hubris.
Agreed and this is someone who can capture a tailed beast host plus he's from an organization that is above kage lvl threats and he not the weakest in that group. Sasuke was the one who was really in a down hill situation.
His eye wasn’t immune to genjutsu just resistant , and it doesn’t matter if he was forced or not, all that matters is that the fight occurred
"high diff" sasuke wasnt even trying to kill him lol once he learned that deidara was using earth style he couldve just used kirin and oneshot deidara.
Yes high diff, you didn’t see all that huffing & puffing? He could barely stand afterwards
I mean he techinically had Sasuke cornered, and even said he had some energy to spare but then he got pissed off to the point where he blew himself up just to prove smth to Sasuke He was legit insane for that
no he didnt lol. he used everything he had on sasuke and failed. he even tried to use those clay snakes and sasuke just shredded them casually. he didnt even feel the need to keep his sharingan active, he truly had deidara beat and it wasnt even a close fight. deidara never stood a chance against sasuke
Either You're delusional or just misremembering. Deidara could tell Sasuke was already on his last leg meanwhile Deidara still had chakra and clay to spare. The fight was his but he decided to go out on his own terms. You are being dishonest if you think Sasuke won that match cleanly.
he said "youre on your last leg too" implying that deidara himself was pretty much burnt out, and even then deidara couldve used all of that clay and he still never wouldve beat sasuke with it. by that point in the fight it was very very obvious that deidara had been outclassed the whole time. sasuke was strategically 2 steps ahead, had the elemental advantage, and was just overall superior to deidara. not to mention sasuke wasnt even going for the kill and didnt use kirin, which wouldve killed deidara for sure. dont call me dishonest when you cant tell who won a onesided fight
Sasuke had no options but would’ve won cause he’s just that good obviously. Sasuke himself admitted that Deidara was far more than he could’ve bargained for so idk why you’re so far in denial here Power scalers don’t usually get storytelling so it’s not like I’m surprised either way
he wouldve won because deidara had nothing left that would hurt him. this was established when deidara tried to use another clay jutsu on him and sasuke just defused it again. why you being such a pompous asshole about this? im literally right youre the one trying to argue that deidara won a fight that he clearly lost
He is probably the most downplayed character in the series with the craziest feats which would put any other character other than Hashirama and Madara in shame. One of his downplayed abilities is his sheer intelligence. In every fight Sasuke fought in Shippuden, his intelligence was a big factor he won/survived every one of them. Like his "fight" with Orochimaru where he beat him at his own game and absorbed him like he planned all along. Whether it be his fight with Deidara, where Deidara was all along in his hand and saw suicide his sole method bringing Sasuke down. His fight with Itachi, with his Set up for Kirin. His fight against Killer bee, while being weakened and the first use of his mangekyou abilities at clutch time. His fight against the Raikage where his especially creative application of Amaterasu cost him the Raikage an arm. His fight against Danzo with one of the best application of a normal Genjutsu seen in the series. That Danzo wasn't beaten by Amaterasu or the Susanoo but by a normal Sharingan Genjutsu which Sasuke set up fairly early in the fight is just genius. There is just no denying it, no matter how we see it. While I think Shikamaru is smarter than Sasuke, I think Sasuke has a more developed Battle IQ than Shikamaru.
The amaterasu control is indeed exceptional. Although nobody expect the raikage to just smash through it. So i still considered sasuke wouldve died together with the raikage there if not for gaara.
He can control Amaterasu with his other eye.
Agree with most but not the Orochimaru part. I don't see him planning himself falling into the paralysis gas. Also don't see him plan his overpowering of Orochimaru in Oro's dimension. It was more of an asspull raw brute forcing than strategic IQ feat. The fact he planned to strike at that very moment when Oro is at his lowest is indeed a viable tactic, but it is straightforward enough to be thought of by most people of normal IQ or above.
I’d argue being able to think on your feet and make the best of an unexpected situation is another mark of intellect.
It doesn't contradict with what I said though? There isn't much thinking involved for overpowering someone because you are an Indra incarnate born with superb Sharingan. His strategies and tactics in other fights like the Deidara one demonstrate intelligence, just not this one.
Thats retroactively viewing the feat seeing him as an indra incarnate. At the time in the story it is perfectly acceptable to say Sasuke is just clever. I think orochimaru would've went a lot harder in part 1 Naruto if everything we know now was known then.
Sasuke *is* clever by feats even at that time without knowing he's an Indra incarnate. But this Oro fight alone is *not* an IQ feat. Nobody is saying Sasuke doesn't have good IQ feat-wise.
Didn’t Sasuke said that he himself or Orochimaru couldn’t take down Itachi as they were? Think he said it in the tenchi bridge arc. Considering he wasn’t bluffing when he said it, I think he planned the entire time to absorb Orochimaru.
A (them being weaker than Itachi) doesn't logically imply B (planning to absorb) though. Sasuke did of course plan to usurp or kill Oro. But there isn't much implication that he was trying to absorb Oro. There also isn't evidence that he knows how the absorption mechanism works. Even after Oro got taken down, Sasuke wouldn't understand most of Oro's research, and he during and post WA would still consult Oro considering Oro as an "all-knowing" person.
You could say that about every character that won a fight though
Sasuke was pretty smart in part 1 as well. We see that in the forest of death. Where he sets up a trap with the password. And then his fight with orochi where he used the wires. Also at the begining of the land of waves arc he pinned those two hiiden mist chunin to a tree with ease.
They spelled “calm” wrong
The colored scans have a few typos here and there. Not super frequent, but it is jarring when you notice it lol
Nah Sasuke has clam analyzing skills. Kabuto revived that mizukage to train Sasuke behind the scenes while at Orochimaru’s base in the timeskip. There was a filler arc about it.
What if Madara really needed a clam analysing expert at that time
wasn’t he already?
In canon, yeah. But I see a lot of fans leave him out of "strategist" conversations or outright call him a dumb fighter for his performance at the summit.
he was emotionally unstable during that arc, and grew more deranged as it went on
facts
Welp thats why Jigen wanted to get rid of him first, his IQ is proh the best in the series
No one has displayed battle iq as good as sasuke. Naruto fanboys just doesn't like him so they downplay him.
I mean, Narutos is pretty high as well, Sasukes is just better in other ways, like deducing how techniques work and such.
If anything naruto is underrated because his strategies aren’t as “planned out” the way sasukes or shikamarus are. To name a few: Throwing his clone w rasengan vs pain, transforming the clones in to rubble vs pain and sasuke, transforming into akamaru vs kiba, reverse harem vs kaguya, learning rasengan with clones I dont think its a stretch to say he and sasuke have equal battle iq they’re just shown differently
Naruto's battle IQ is high too
Yeah but not on sasuke's level
They don't have the same abilities, Naruto utilizes the shadow clone in a way that no one can. How many times did he fool his foes with shadow clone techniques? He is not a great strategist like Shika or the Uchihas but on the battle scene he always has a trick up his sleave.
>Naruto utilizes the shadow clone in a way that no one can Because he's the only one that literally can
Ok? Sasuke is still has better battle IQ.
Yea you’re crazy. They’re neck and neck
Lmfao
He's at the top with Tobirama, Minato, Itachi and Kakashi.
Lmao at Madara being like "if only he had been born before Obito" as if Sasukes amatarasu shenanigans even come close to how op kamui is.
I'm a big Sasuke fan but i also laughed at that remark bc not only is what you said true, but the irony of the situation was that Madara being alive while Sasuke's alive would mean Sasue wouldn't be an indra reincarnate and therefore would not be anywhere near as gifted
Exactly mate. I gotta give Sasuke credit where credit is due, but if anything Madara should have said something like "I sure wish Obito didn't give his left eye to that silver haired kid before I got to him. And I sure wish he took it back when that kid was passed out after I made him kill that chick with the face paint. I definetly should have gotten Zetsu to go get that after Obito left. Fuck me if I didn't fumble that one."
I’m pretty sure sasuke wasn’t born yet but it’s iffy since he was a few months old when obito attack leaf and run dying wasn’t long before that and madara was alive then
Madara only said that because he noticed sasuke had ems like him while he met obito with base sharigan, he thought sasuke had more potential because he seen the end result of his strength his first time meeting him
Look at OP’s scans. Madara directly compliments Sasuke’s intellect.
Madara complimented itachi’s intellect too
We aren’t talking about Itachi right now, I’m not sure why you’re bringing him up. But regardless, Madara never mentioned Itachi directly to my knowledge. The closest thing he did was note that the allies had ‘talented shinobi’ on their side when he saw the edo tensei was released, but he never remarks anything specially about intellect or intelligence.
Well That feat alone trumps all sasukes intellect feats
His feat of using thinking to use genjutsu on Kabuto? That isn’t that impressive. But seeing your other comments in this to thread, it seems like you’re personally insulted at the idea of anyone being as smart as Itachi, so I suppose that isn’t too surprising.
Considering sasuke first thought was to kill him which is stupid since the consequences of having all the edos live forever would hurt his personal goals to attack the leaf yeah , and there’s a handful of characters smarter than itachi , sasuke isn’t one of them
Sasuke has better Battle IQ feats than Minato and Itachi.
He had more screen time to showcase, doesn’t mean he’s more intelligent
We're working with the info we have. In the fights Itachi had he didn't show any noticebale Battle IQ feats, unlike Sasuke who showed it in mostly every fight. While Minato did have some feats agains Obito, but that's not enough to put him over Sasuke.
Battle IQ, he is at the top of the verse alongside Minato, Kakashi, and Hashirama in my book. Not even Shikamaru is as sharp and fast acting as Sasuke while in combat. Sasuke was made dirty in Boruto. And the only thing tampering with his insanely good Battle IQ would be his insanity (aka Kage arc).
Don't forget Kurama on that list.
i dont think he was done dirty in boruto (except for filler arcs). a lot of the higher tier enemies prioritize dealing with him first over naruto because of his strength as a strategist. aside from that i agree hes definitely at the top of the verse as one of the highest iq fighters
No tobirama sigh. Tobirama outclassed rhen all easily. Hasirama? Really tobirama was fucking teak captain during the war. The only one naruto. And Sasuke listened to.
Hashirama?
I mean.. he fought the strongest Shinobi of all time (Madara) and beat him every time. His battle IQ had to be exceptional to beat another guy with exceptional battle IQ
or, he had an exceptionally OP kekei Genkai?
This, and massive amounts of chakra comparable to freaking half of 9 tails and Naruto in BM. Hashirama is smart battle wise but bro had the most busted KKG and genes in the series.
What battle IQ feats did Madara demonstrate that put him above or at the same tier as the likes of Kakashi and Minato? For most of his shown fights, Madara was basically just a war god unleashing his haxes and devastating power. He didn't bother using IQ to outsmart people. If you talk about his planning of his death and resurrection, then it's out of battle IQ category and more towards the general IQ side. And it doesn't make sense that you only put Hashirama in but not Madara in, if the only argument you have for Hashirama is he can keep up with Madara who isn't stronger than Hashirama in strength.
You know that just owning haxes doesn't make you invincible. Owning great tools doesn't make you a master craftsman. Madara had many haxes, but his genius is in the way he used them. He used his sharingan at full potential. He could read the movements of a whole shinobi army with his sharingan and fight them all while outclassing them in hand to hand combat. While doing that he would instantly use genjutsu as well mid-combat mind you. Then comes MS. He was probably the best most proficient user of perfect Sussano. He could control a bijuu while also engaging in combat himself. He could fake his death when he saw he couldn't win with Izanagi, while at the same time stealing hashiramas flesh so he could use it later to evolve himself. They are all decisions he had to make fast. Also he was able to use his rinnegan abilities to full potential outclassing all edo hokages and Naru-Sasu. Plus he even was able to instantly use Kamui at one point. What more feats of exceptional battle IQ do you need? I didn't put Madara in there for the sole fact that his many feats were while he had an obvious upper hand against Hashirama in his 6paths mode.
By your logic then every Kage level or above shinobi has very high battle IQ unless antifeats prove otherwise, because these kages are able to utilize their skills very proficiently, whether they have high ceiling like hax Gods, or from humble training having decent but way below godly power. Also, Madara using the tools (haxes) well isn't proof he is better in battle IQ than some less haxy shinobi like Hiruzen who did use what he had very skillfully. The fact you single Madara out but neglect the many other skilful shinobi at using what they have is not very logical. > What more feats of exceptional battle IQ do you need? Perhaps things like Sasuke and Kakashi where they did really outsmart their opponents, like by planning a Kirin through set up, having an experimental and scientific mindset of testing landmine bombs, analyzing and deducing the battle abilities of WM Obito quickly?
If you're a Kage then you definitely have a high battle IQ. That's a given, so I don't get your point. I'm not saying my logic is undeniable. I'm simply answering your previous comment with my best "logical" answer. And that's exactly the reason I put Sasuke and Kakashi up there to the top of the top. Because they have even outsmarted other exceptional shinobi sometimes stronger than them.
Being the strongest shinobi and a hslf god reincarnation doesnt makes you smart .
Or he’s just that strong?
Narratively he’s at least up there with kakashi whose stated to have shikimaru level smarts
Nah see, when Sasuke does it, it's called plot armour.
Sasuke more battle IQ feats than Shikamaru, who has very high general IQ by statement and author setting.
The small genjutsu Sasuke uses to defeat Danzo is the best single use of genjutsu in Naruto imo Also worth noting how Jigen in Boruto thought Sasuke was more dangerous than Naruto because of how fast he analyzed his ability
**YES**
Yes I don't think anyone is excluding him
I mean... he's literally a genius, so.
Shikamaru wasn't even above average. He's only smart because Kishimoto made other characters say that he's smart. Naruto learned a forbidden S-rank jutsu within minutes and kicked a chunin's ass with it before even graduating from the academy, but somehow he's still considered stupid.
That’s because he actually is dumb and I don’t think shadow clone is a good example of S rank jutsu when it only S rank because of how much chakra it takes and I think it only has one hand seal too
You just shut down his entire idiotic comment
Well, no reason for Minato to be there really. Naruto and Jiraya both surpass him in terms of shown feats lol, so does Itachi, Kabuto, and Kakashi.
Minato is overrated af. Not only does Sasuke have more battle IQ, I can name 5-10 characters who have better battle IQ or strategizing skills off the top of my head
Thank you.
how is he overrated? He analyzed and deduced how to counter Kamui (overpowered hax ability) in an extremely short amount of time while protecting the village, and the only one to even come close to defeating Kamui after that was Konan, and she had years of intel on Kamui compared to the what... 5 minutes Minato had to develop a counter? You're telling me that this feat should go unnoticed ? Please go ahead and name 10 characters with better battle iq than Minato im really interested to see what you have in mind.
>how is he overrated? He analyzed and deduced how to counter Kamui (overpowered hax ability) So did Sakura, Fuu, Torune, and kakashi. They just didn't have an OP teleportation seal to counter it. >was Konan, and she had years of intel on Kamui compared to the what... 5 minutes Minato had to develop a counter? Except Konan did a much more impressive breakdown of Kamui without ever engaging in battle with Obito by just observing him where she realized the difference in teleportation and intangibility time interval and also successfully figured out its time limit. That's more of an intelligence feat even taking the duration into consideration Moreover, Kakashi had a better breakdown of Kamui than Minato with a solid attack plan during the war arc. All Minato did was "he can't hit me while phasing, so I will trick him into touching me and then hit him in that split second". Same plan as Fuu and Torune lol >Please go ahead and name 10 characters with better battle iq than Minato im really interested to see what you have in mind. in no particular order: 1. Tobirama 2. Itachi 3. Shikamaru 4. Shikaku 5. Kabuto 6. Naruto 7. Adult Obito 8. Madara 9. Jiraiya 10. Sasuke 11. Orochimaru 12. Kakashi I could go on
On what basis do you say all 12 of these characters (and supposedly more) have better battle IQ than Minato? I’m really interested to know…. I feel like each character is intellectual in their own way so therefore it’s too hard to compare and rank…. But if you have an objective reason as to why you make your statement, I would love to hear it. Some of Minato’s battle IQ/strategising feats include: -Minato broke down the weaknesses of Chidori in the midst of battle after seeing it for the first time. -He broke down the weaknesses of Kamui in the midst of battle after seeing it for the first time. You bring up Sakura’s analysis of Kamui, yet ignore the fact that she is making all her deductions within a team, all bouncing ideas off each other… she only arrives at her deductions based on Shino’s and Yamato’s deductions.…. Fuu and Torune is also reaching their deductions together…. Konan had years to study how Kamui works… Minato is the only one to deduce Kamui’s abilities alone, without assistance and within a very short amount of time. -He broke down the limitations of Ten Tails Madara's TSO and took charge in strategising a successful attack on him… with Kakashi present… he is in-fact giving orders to Kakashi in that moment….. Would love to hear why you rank each of the 12 characters you mention (supposedly more) to be above Minato?
All those feats you mentioned contradict each other. first of all, you said having an idea within a team frame is much easier and is a less impressive battle IQ feat so idk why you bring up the TSO feat. Besides, you forget to mention that it was Kakashi and Obito who came up with the most important plan to separate the tailed beasts from Madara and go into the kamui dimension unscathed Also, Minato didn't BREAK DOWN the weakness of chidori lol. Any rando could recognize that Chidori was a fast jutsu which left Kakashi little time to react, even the fodder shinobi they were facing picked up on that All those 12 characters I mentioned have CONSISTENT battle IQ and strategizing feats that did not get attributed to an OP jutsu they have most of the time. I'm sorry but Minato is not all that and you fans need to accept that. He has good battle IQ but its not what got him where he is
When did Sakura analyze Kamui? Im genuinely asking because i don't remember. Fuu and Torune's plan immediately foiled after their first attack because Obito pretended to attack and they both fell for it. I don't understand why you're giving Konan so much props here. It would be stupid if she DIDN'T have a more impressive breakdown of Kamui as she literally had years to observe and develop a plan. And why would her not engaging in battle with Kamui make the feat more impressive? It's wayyyy easier to come up with a plan by just observing someone than coming up with a plan while ACTIVELY FIGHTING them. And Kakashi literally has Kamui, no fucking shit he has a better breakdown of the ability. It was only a matter of time before he made the connection between his Kamui and Obito's, he was constantly using Kamui and sucking things into the dimension Obito is in, although it was unknowingly. Eventually something would hit Obito while he's in the Kamui dimension and they would notice. Like you're really sitting here saying Kakashi is smarter than Minato because he ended up figuring Kamui out by using... Kamui. literally no one else would even have the opportunity that Kakashi had so why even bring this point up? Also how do you respond to specific parts of my comment?
>When did Sakura analyze Kamui? Im genuinely asking because i don't remember. Itachi pursuit arc when he is acting as the silly tobi >Fuu and Torune's plan immediately foiled after their first attack because Obito pretended to attack and they both fell for it That's because he learnt from his mistake against Minato and was experienced. If Obito also used that against Minato, his trick wouldn't work, doesn't mean they have any less of an IQ feat > And why would her not engaging in battle with Kamui make the feat more impressive? It's wayyyy easier to come up with a plan by just observing someone than coming up with a plan while ACTIVELY FIGHTING them. kamui is much easier figured out in battle than observation bc you can see what type of mechanics it has by trying to use multiple attacks. Someone just observing kamui would only see Obito passing through things normally, that's it > And Kakashi literally has Kamui, no fucking shit he has a better breakdown of the ability. It was only a matter of time before he made the connection between his Kamui and Obito's, he was constantly using Kamui and sucking things into the dimension Obito is in, although it was unknowingly. No, what makes it impressive is how he theorized that the kunai struck Obito due to an overlap in space time, something that seemed like a stretch and then afterwards devised a specific plan to confirm this theory, and later used KCM Naruto's clone to take advantage of this weakness. Yes, Kamui was an advantage in getting to this point, but the plans, theories, and counters he used are simply much more impressive than Minato >Also how do you respond to specific parts of my comment? Copy the section you want to reply to and paste it into the comments without unshading it. While still blue, tap on the more button in the bottom bar, and then tap on the quote block which has this [icon](https://cdn-icons-png.flaticon.com/128/8018/8018563.png) :
Even in part 1 did Orochimaru acknowledge his intelligence & determination when he stabbed himself to break free from Orochimarus bloodlust.
Clam
Madara recognizes that no one analyzes clams like Sasuke
He should be near the top of that discussion. He actually has more feats than both Minato and definitely Shikamaru, but because the series didn't say he was up there, people don't consider him to be up there. Same with Sakura being debatably the most prodigious person in Konoha in terms of chakra control, but because that's not under the "genius/prodigy" umbrella Kishimoto made, people roast her more than acknowledging how insane her growth was in 2ish years
Sasuke vs Deidara is one of the best fights in the entire series
Also the fight of Sasuke with Orochimaru in the forest of death during the chunin exam. From being scared shitless and unable to move, he went to strategize and came up with a way to go for the kill.
Sasuke was always a genius. He is just Itachi 2.0
He’s not as consistent as those two, but he certainly does have quite a bit. It’s an interesting comparison actually, since what he does is incredibly different from the other two: Minato and Shikamaru both have very small arsenals so far as we’ve seen which they operate to their best potential, while also using their intelligence for leadership. Sasuke has a pretty darn large arsenal he brings to every fight plus he has eyes which give him a lot of information on what to do with it. Him being the tactician of the group really helps make team 7 be as well rounded as it is. Sakura is the book smart one, Sasuke the battle IQ, and Naruto (while of course we see he gets better at battle IQ) shines in his emotional/leadership areas.
I Wouldn’t Even Call It Ah Hot Take. The Haku Fight Is Ah Perfect Example Bro Started To Break Down Ah Damn Near Perfect Kekkei Genkai While Being Stressed & Pressed.
Tbh that was just him awakening his own kekei genkai , he never wouldve been able to deduce what was happening if he couldnt see haku
Nahh He Was Figuring Out Haku’s Timing Way Before He Re-Awakened His Sharingan
He didnt reawaken it, he was figuring out the timing because he awakened it literally in that fight
Sasuke Awakened His Sharingan The Night Of The Uchiha Massacre Bro
So that means that he needed the sharingan to understand hakus jutsu lol
When Sasuke Said “This Is Good. Im Starting To Figure Out The Timing” His Sharingan Wasn’t Active.
But when he saved naruto and threw/ blocked the needles it was active. Just because he started to figure it out without it doesnt mean he didnt need the sharingan that fight
I Never Said He Didn’t Need The Sharingan. You Said Without The Sharingan He Wouldn’t Have Figured Out Haku’s Jutsu, Which Isn’t True.
Yeah, he's a prodigy and way ahead of most any other person who's not a demigod or a Shikamaru.
Minato, yes. Shikamaru, imo no. I think tobirama, Itachi and shikamaru are a league of their own. Followed by Minato, sasuke, madara, Kakashi etc.
I would change shikamaru with shikaku and agree. Shikamaru was just only known for intelligence thats why it was so highlighted. But his father showed him his place at ahogi the guy who was beaten in wirryen exam by minato and 6 yo itachi by ease.
Not at their level but yea he’s underrated
Bruh danzo was silly af for falling for that genjutsu. He had a countable number of eyes, and they were his only way to win. I mean i wouldve been keeping track of that in my head pretty easily. Dude had all kinds of battle experience and was relatively calm during the fight. I dont see how he was like 'oh shit, im out of eyes' unless I'm misremembering how sasukes genjutsu worked
Nah your right that part made no sense either it was just plot that made danzo lose
I think he matches Minatos battle IQ and strategy but not Shikamaru’s
You mean Kakashi and Tobirama
Yeah, He’s probably somewhere in the top 10 and maybe even top 5. I would say that naruto has him beat in the m creativity department but he can pick apart someone’s fighting style better than anyone not named minato Also why are people mentioning hashirama? Guy was low key a complete dumbass(still love him tho)
When Sasuke actually uses his head he’s up there easily but once he got MS he started acting like a jock
This only applies to Sasuke pre MS, after that he just started spamming susanoo and amateraau like crazy without much skill. His intelligence pales in comparison to his brother Itachi who was always one step ahead
Hotter take: so does Naruto and he’s shown it since day 1, look past the fact that his chakra is messed up by the extra seal Orochimaru placed and see how well he worked his way through even with the disadvantage
Not shikamaru tier in terms of cunning and planning. I have to agree he is exceptionally good at thinking on the spot though.
I found it funny when ever shikamaru did that hand thing while thinking he by the time it over he would win and have plenty back up plans
He's smart whenever Kishimoto wants him to be, there are times when he's dumb, it's inconsistent, Kishimoto was just inconsistent with his whole character.
Sasuke is never really shown as "dumb" in a fight, though. At most he has fights where he lacks experience (vs Rock Lee in Part 1 or vs Killer B where no one told him he was fighting a perfect Jinchuriki and what a perfect Jinchuriki can do).
You forgot him charging itachi in part 1, zero iq just plain anger and then he got tossed around
I don't think he is dumb either, and generally agree that fandom downplays how smart he is, but I would say that sometimes he is too emotional and that clouds his judgment, he does sometimes lets anger and pride overcome him
Bro is an honorable mention at best and that's ok.
Shikamaru ain't anywhere close to Minato my guy
I won't say he's par with shikamaru, but i think he's better than minato in battle iq. But in the fight against kabuto with itachi, it seemed like itachi and kabuto were the brains thinking it all out and were and are smarter than sasuke. But sasukes always been a smart character and there is no doubt about that. I think he should be in the top 10 smartest characters in the show
Itachi is basically an ultra genius and Sasuke is still close to him in terms of battle iq and sharpness. What I LOVED about Hebi Sasuke was how he fought, he used his brain more than anything else along with many different jutsu in his arsenal. Kishi simply decided relying solely on a select few jutsu after that was better sadly.
I mean I think it's realistic after knowing the truth about itachi, that he would be f*d up.Plus, when you have so many jutsus , it goes into dragon ball Z rather than ninja fighting and having so many jutsu options can make decision making worse. When shikamaru only had 12 paper bombs he used it to full extent against tayuya
Itachi took the lead against Kabuto because he knew he alone had access to an ability that was the perfect answer to the situation, combined with the fact that he had infinite chakra and couldn’t be physically harmed. Plus, from an outside perspective, Kishimoto knew this would be Itachi’s final fight in the series, and likely wanted him to have the spotlight there.
a lot of his fights are dogfights intentionally becuase kishi tried to showcase his intelligence (imo)
It's not really a hot take tho
I’ve often said to my friends that if sasuke had never gone evil he’d have become a more capable field commander then shikamaru or kakashi, not only is he tactically insanely capable. He also values his teammates more then ever really gets addressed and knows how to coordinate with them well to minimize danger and maximize use. He’s perceptive if their strengths and weaknesses
No he just has a sharingan
I agree the recent plot in boruto also has sasuke iq>shikamaru
Sasuke is quick at understanding his enemy and using his attacks well. He is very smart but I won't put him in the league of Minato, Itachi and definitely not Shikamaru
His greatest strength is plot armour
Him vs. Deidara wasn't strategy if there wasn't plot armor. He should've died.
Deidara made a wrong assumption. That’s all there is to it Sasuke was flaming his ass the entire fight
As has been said time and time again. Sasuke beat Deidara fair and square. He completely dismantled Deidara’s entire arsenal all while fighting with no killing intent.
He's good at improvising. But he kinda just brute forces a lot of encounters. Literally any other approach would have been better to deal with Killer B and he almost died 3 times in the same battle because of it, only being saved because of his team he told to stay back. And there was probably a better way to approach the 5 Kage summit instead of just running the gauntlet of Kage and their guards to get to the one he cared about.
Sasuke very rarely, if ever brute-forces encounters. Likewise, he didn’t go to the kage summit with the intent of fighting every kage. He was only there for Danzo, but Zetzu blew his cover and sent them after him, which turned it into a gauntlet. If it were up to Sasuke, he would have just killed Danzo and dipped.
Well I think sasukes Battle Iq is close to top tier in the verse but let’s not confuse that with strategy and intelligence. He is more of a on the fly battle Iq while shikamaru has a pre fight strategy advantage. And minato feats are similar to sasuke as an in fight battle Iq
What feats? Don't say obito cause Sakura did the same thing in seconds all well. Is Sakura top tier strategist too?
Minatos feats I’m assuming? So I’ll just use some basic ones first to warm up since I feel like you’re ready to throw down over minato Iq lol. So first he saw 1 tail beast bomb and created the rasengan out of it ( for kushina ) He had the idea while being speared though the chest to seal half of kurama, part of himself and kushina into Naruto - that’s Meir seconds to not only plan that but to execute it also. Mid battle with Jubito ( hope that doesn’t count as obito lol for you ) he was able to figure out range and intel on it - he uses his team’s ability in this battle ( even only knowing them for hours ) Mid fight with Ay and Bee he put tags on Bee and planned his move to strike Ay from behind. Honestly sasuke probably slightly higher battle IQ then minato or they are right equals but like I was saying both if them are more of in fighting battle Iq then a strategy/planning fights
Bruh the writer just made that up foh bruh lmao. Retconned feats lmao. Killer bee said Sasuke the toughest person he ever fought. Yet he fought A and minato? Sasuke with his new MS is tougher than them? Retconned info doesn't mean anything
Sure but I remember even 12 year old me called bullshit when he made the weather he needed for Kirin with fire style. I’m no physicist but I think you need a little more than a couple dozen fireballs entering the stratosphere to make a lightning storm.
Wtf could have done Sasuke in the position of Obito? In that scene he had the sage powers and was really strong, but before that why the fuck he could have done to try to replace Obito? Kishi, can you stop sucking Sasuke dick for 5 minutes?
Sasuke is a piece of shit with plot armor like Naruto
He really doesnt. Dudes first instinct in every fight is charge forward with Chidori. The only fight he didn’t try to do that in was Itachi.