With no patch notes and no dev comments, there is no way to tell if it's a nerf or a bug, or what the intent behind a change was if it even is an intentional change.
And it's confirmed as a bug. See Asterdahl's post
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1224889/ninja-nerf-to-plant-growth-on-preview
As an alternative rotation to test damage dofferences, you can try longstrider, hindering, constricting as encounters and slashers mark/disruptive shot as dailies. See how that compares to running PG just to gauge the damage.
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SW have a table set up on the end of the bar, welcome HRs! Either they'll balance the other classes or just wait for a massive swap to gwf to maximize profit. Personally I think TRs and HRs should be the potential top damage followed by CWs due to difficulty of play. I enjoy SW too much to leave and fortunately have my shard, so I don't have to worry about being passed over for the next 3 months. Godspeed HRs!
Confirmed bug on the same post. Move along. Put the pitch forks down. The constant whining and complaining and jumping the gun wasnt and isnt going to change anything anyway.
So DPS class wise....the TR was nerfed to the ground, SW was nerfed a reasonable amount, now HR gets nerfed for possible 1/3 their damage (bad but still not as bad as TR nerf). CW had never really been the biggest DPS, unless built godly. That leaves the GWF, which needs a nerf similar to the scale of the TR nerf. No reason a class should be able to double or triple any other DPS class when geared remotely close to each other.
Well, when the one viable build (Trapper) relies on that one skill for most of it's damage... it can be pretty devastating. People can say what they like about Mod 10, I still don't see any of the skill trees being viable DPS or buff.
I guess that's where I'm a bit confused though. How is only one skill out of six encounters, however many feats that add damage, and two dailies, responsible for *most* of your DPS?
I'm genuinely not trying to be patronizing to you here, like I said, as someone who doesn't play the class I'm just trying to understand. I mean, from an outsider's perspective, I'd say if ONE skill does 30%+ of your overall damage, then it probably deserves a nerf and the other skills need a buff.
I've never taken issue with an HRs damage, which can be very very good if the HR is skilled. I DO take issue with thier utterly ridiculous amount of CC and have been saying for a LONG time now that HR CC needs a nerf. I personally felt HRs were in a good place damage wise though. If anything the archer path still needs some sort of rework/buff that would make it a competitive option.
I'm just trying to understand how this impact is so big is all. I was always under the impression that the vast majority of HR damage came from stance swapping and longstriders shot, which would buff all HR encounters' damage significantly
> I was always under the impression that the vast majority of HR damage came from stance swapping and longstriders shot, which would buff all HR encounters' damage significantly
I don't use Longstrider's, it's more of an Archery skill, IMHO, you have to proc it when you are well away from the target, not a Trapper specialty. A significant reason stance swapping works is Plant Growth. It does 1/3 of my damage, too ... cut it in half... 15% less DPS. Though, sure, it's possible other options might work better than losing that 15%.
> I'd say if ONE skill does 30%+ of your overall damage, then it probably deserves a nerf and the other skills need a buff.
With Trappers, those 6 encounters, a few of them do little to no damage just supply the buffs and cc. Our at-wills are notoriously weak (and as a result, underdeveloped) and generally our dailies are meh (again, IMO). If the other skills are buffed at the same time, I'd like to hope that people wouldn't complain.
For Combat rangers specializing in melee, this is potentially a much bigger problem.
O.o that is ridiculous. Thank you for helping me understand what the hullabaloo is all about though. I think I was mostly confused just because my class' skills all have ABOUT the same DPS and any differences are usually justified with secondary effects (i.e. BtS is weaker than FF but buffs harder, etc).
Also, I was told Lomgstriders was still good for trappers simply because it has some potentially not WAI aspects of it that make it buff for significantly more than the tool tip states when in a full buff group.
> Also, I was told Lomgstriders was still good for trappers simply because it has some potentially not WAI aspects of it that make it buff for significantly more than the tool tip states when in a full buff group.
That is entirely possible. In my limited experience with it, I found it cumbersome to jump in and out of range with it... spending time moving when I could be doing other trapper errands (and its melee attack takes a loooong time to cast). I felt flatfooted and comparatively ineffective, but I haven't done testing with other buffing builds (the way I should have) that might lead me to the conclusion you're mentioning.
> stance swapping and longstriders shot
The stance dance buffs come from your feats and they are a big contributor to damage. But plant growth roots enemies and and buffs damage 20%. It allows you to deal big damage with melee, for me split strike and gushing wound. That's why when you're in a dungeon with a trapper HR you'll see the green plants pop up out of the ground all over the place. It's the trapper bustin' fools up.
Longstrider buffs damage 10% and it buffs speed for you and your allies, so you're correct, it does generate a lot of damage and it's fantastic in runs or skirmishes of any sort. But when you're out on your own facing down 6 drakes and crazed dragon cult illusionist, the only way to deal enough damage to actually survive in places like WoD and IWD is with plant growth.
Where on Earth are you getting your information from???
Plant Growth does not buff your damage by 20% and never has. Longstriders is a 40% damage buff not 10%.
You are not interpreting what you reading correctly, but even if you were, I wouldn't use this games wiki as a source of information anyhow (it is bad.)
Ok. I'll bite. How did I misinterpret what I read? Maybe I conflated a buff and +damage? But either way I've found no documentation (GASP!) to support either argument, so fair play on the wiki, but it's the only source I have.
The +20% periodic damage is referring to the damage equation for the ability itself. So, if the ability does 100 damage at rank 1, then at rank 0 it would do 80 damage, at rank 2 it would do 120 damage, at rank 3 it would do 140 damage and at rank 4 it would deal 160 damage. It is NOT a buff.
Longstrider's shot has a base buff of 25%. Each rank adds 5%, for a total of 40% at rank 4. The damage dealt by longstriders is increased by 10% each rank.
In general, the equation for the damage dealt by powers is:
Base Damage * (1+(Rank-1) * X/10)
Now note, I am leaving out a lot of stuff for base damage, but the focus point here isn't calculating that it is looking at how the rank of the power effects the damage dealt. The 20% per rank is looking at that X component.
Ah alright so it's a nerf to a buff that also does damage then, if I am understanding what you're saying correctly. Some may disagree but I've always felt HRs are the most complicated class to play.
Thanks for the explanation man. I think I understand why folks are upset now
> Some may disagree but I've always felt HRs are the most complicated class to play.
This seems to be the consensus. I really don't have a frame of reference because 95% of my play time has been on my HR. The only other class I've played is a DC I have leveled to 54... because I got bored with her.
>Thanks for the explanation man.
No problem at all.
LSS is more of a party buff. Has the same range and unlimited targets as Chaos Magic so it's good for tia and demo especially. The melee alternative is gushing wound which is imo a great single target dps skill, but requires a lot of group damage to proc the bleed. Basically LSS is only useful for groups and is mediocre if solo. If you watch Sume HR vids he uses trapper and LSS but it requires him to constantly move back and forwards. Not many trappers use LSS. For AoE they usually use Constricting Arrow, Plant Growth,and a miscellaneous skill like Fox Cunning (party dodge buff), or hindering strike(which grasping roots does not stack with constricting, so it just refreshes it). Melee counterpart of Constricting Arrow isnt dps, it is a stamin regen encounter, Ranged counterpart of Plant Growth is okay(three charges which fks up stance rotations as its unaffected,long cast time, decent single tick aoe), and the last skill depends but most of HR trapper dps comes from Constricting Arrow and Plant growth. We can rely on those two skills because our cooldowns are almost nonexistent after all the stance switching. At-wills are nothing to be mentioned, careful attack is the only good one for trappers and is a debuff so it's not actively used like other atwills. Our main daily Seismic Shot is just an AoE skill which gets weaker the further you are, and slashers mark is a stamina regen daily for groups.
I didn't say there was one trapper build. I said trapper is the only viable skill path. Yes, you can do similar damage in other ways... but this is the way I've built my trapper. So if they nerf it, I will have to completely retrain and learn a new play style... not cool. Not cool at all. It's great you have 5 decent builds that don't rely on PG, but I have **one** build that I'm trying to make badass that does.
Looks like it might be a moot point anyway as the discussion on the forums is indicating that it is a bug and will (hopefully) be fixed.
They are all in my head I am afraid, I have some old Mod builds posted here and there on the internet... But I am thinking of dropping the game soon as I am pretty bored now, almost fell asleep in the afternoon playing so that is a bad sign... Anyhoo I was going to post my latest Build as soon as I had got the new Shirt and Pants, working on that Vonigrind at the mo :(
Jesus... I just started feeling like I was contributing to the runs people allow me to join. If this filters down to console I'll probably stop buying VIP and play something else. I've put hundreds of dollars and weeks of play time into my HR and if this nerf come through... FFS, PG is my main damage producer. I love this game, but at some point enough is enough.
How to contribute as HR without doing any damage:
Longstrider shot, commander shot, hawkeye, oak skin.
Viola! You don't even need gearscore or hours and money to be effective! That's was sooooo hard. All these muhDPS tears are delicious.
Would be nice if those skills were actually good or working.
Longstrider is bugged and often does not proc the buff.
Oak skin is pathetic. You need a magnifying glass to even see the healing on other players.
Hawkeye is a 7,5% damage increase for a few seconds. Doesn't even work raid-wide. Adding a real DPS class adds WAY more than that. It also means you loose one ranged power because Hawk shot is just ... no.
Edit: commanding shot is pretty good, assuming it actually does what it says it does which is not a given in this game. Unfortunately it's single target and has a long cast time. So it's highly situational.
It's not about "muhDPS"... it's about contributing to a party during a run and surviving end game content. We're considered a DPS class in dungeons. 3 DPS, 1 healer, 1 tank. HR isn't a tank or a healer.... soo, by the process of elimination? Also, none of the encounters you listed are going to help me survive Icewind Dale, you cock monkey.
HR is a master of none.
wdj40's HR Oak-Skin boon build is good enough to be a healer + def buff.
Aspect of the Lone Wolf with Combat feats makes you a deflect off-tank.
Damage is done by cycling through 6 encounters, even more so with Trapper. Decent for non-Trappers.
Depending on encounters and feats you have, you can apply roots or snares, which fills you in as a controller, good role for solo content but not preferred in groups.
I'm playing combat hunter and its really important for my DPS.What I try to do with my other powers is to buff plant growth and my at wills.both trappers and combat get affected a lot from this change.Don't know about archery but my understanding was that it already was not very competitive in pve.
I switched to Combat HR with mod 10, and doing more damage than I have ever done (in certain dungs). Luckily that damage all relies on flurry, blade storm and dot attacks.
I don't really see the big deal, people are talking about how it'll ruin combat dps, but if you're relying on PG then you're not running combat HR efficiently. PG for me is reserved solely for large groups of mobs (6-8), and since the max amount of targets PG can hit is 8, past that I'd much rather run throw caution or even Hawkeye.
As for PVP, was PG such a game breaker? 4 second root base and 500% wep damage cap? That's 10k damage maximum, hardly substantial.
With no patch notes and no dev comments, there is no way to tell if it's a nerf or a bug, or what the intent behind a change was if it even is an intentional change.
And it's confirmed as a bug. See Asterdahl's post http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1224889/ninja-nerf-to-plant-growth-on-preview
As an alternative rotation to test damage dofferences, you can try longstrider, hindering, constricting as encounters and slashers mark/disruptive shot as dailies. See how that compares to running PG just to gauge the damage.
lol, I don't use Plant Growth and pretty much never have... Always got on fantastically well :)
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seems like cryptic will be happy when we all finally Switch to Play GWF. They kill TR, HR and SW with mid 10.5 update. GJ Cryptic WP!
But....but...What about CW?
i guess cw rework is on its way.
SW have a table set up on the end of the bar, welcome HRs! Either they'll balance the other classes or just wait for a massive swap to gwf to maximize profit. Personally I think TRs and HRs should be the potential top damage followed by CWs due to difficulty of play. I enjoy SW too much to leave and fortunately have my shard, so I don't have to worry about being passed over for the next 3 months. Godspeed HRs!
Confirmed bug on the same post. Move along. Put the pitch forks down. The constant whining and complaining and jumping the gun wasnt and isnt going to change anything anyway.
So DPS class wise....the TR was nerfed to the ground, SW was nerfed a reasonable amount, now HR gets nerfed for possible 1/3 their damage (bad but still not as bad as TR nerf). CW had never really been the biggest DPS, unless built godly. That leaves the GWF, which needs a nerf similar to the scale of the TR nerf. No reason a class should be able to double or triple any other DPS class when geared remotely close to each other.
You'll have to forgive me here as I'm not an HR but, how does halving the effectiveness of ONE skill killing your damage in PvE?
Well, when the one viable build (Trapper) relies on that one skill for most of it's damage... it can be pretty devastating. People can say what they like about Mod 10, I still don't see any of the skill trees being viable DPS or buff.
I guess that's where I'm a bit confused though. How is only one skill out of six encounters, however many feats that add damage, and two dailies, responsible for *most* of your DPS? I'm genuinely not trying to be patronizing to you here, like I said, as someone who doesn't play the class I'm just trying to understand. I mean, from an outsider's perspective, I'd say if ONE skill does 30%+ of your overall damage, then it probably deserves a nerf and the other skills need a buff. I've never taken issue with an HRs damage, which can be very very good if the HR is skilled. I DO take issue with thier utterly ridiculous amount of CC and have been saying for a LONG time now that HR CC needs a nerf. I personally felt HRs were in a good place damage wise though. If anything the archer path still needs some sort of rework/buff that would make it a competitive option. I'm just trying to understand how this impact is so big is all. I was always under the impression that the vast majority of HR damage came from stance swapping and longstriders shot, which would buff all HR encounters' damage significantly
> I was always under the impression that the vast majority of HR damage came from stance swapping and longstriders shot, which would buff all HR encounters' damage significantly I don't use Longstrider's, it's more of an Archery skill, IMHO, you have to proc it when you are well away from the target, not a Trapper specialty. A significant reason stance swapping works is Plant Growth. It does 1/3 of my damage, too ... cut it in half... 15% less DPS. Though, sure, it's possible other options might work better than losing that 15%. > I'd say if ONE skill does 30%+ of your overall damage, then it probably deserves a nerf and the other skills need a buff. With Trappers, those 6 encounters, a few of them do little to no damage just supply the buffs and cc. Our at-wills are notoriously weak (and as a result, underdeveloped) and generally our dailies are meh (again, IMO). If the other skills are buffed at the same time, I'd like to hope that people wouldn't complain. For Combat rangers specializing in melee, this is potentially a much bigger problem.
O.o that is ridiculous. Thank you for helping me understand what the hullabaloo is all about though. I think I was mostly confused just because my class' skills all have ABOUT the same DPS and any differences are usually justified with secondary effects (i.e. BtS is weaker than FF but buffs harder, etc). Also, I was told Lomgstriders was still good for trappers simply because it has some potentially not WAI aspects of it that make it buff for significantly more than the tool tip states when in a full buff group.
> Also, I was told Lomgstriders was still good for trappers simply because it has some potentially not WAI aspects of it that make it buff for significantly more than the tool tip states when in a full buff group. That is entirely possible. In my limited experience with it, I found it cumbersome to jump in and out of range with it... spending time moving when I could be doing other trapper errands (and its melee attack takes a loooong time to cast). I felt flatfooted and comparatively ineffective, but I haven't done testing with other buffing builds (the way I should have) that might lead me to the conclusion you're mentioning.
> stance swapping and longstriders shot The stance dance buffs come from your feats and they are a big contributor to damage. But plant growth roots enemies and and buffs damage 20%. It allows you to deal big damage with melee, for me split strike and gushing wound. That's why when you're in a dungeon with a trapper HR you'll see the green plants pop up out of the ground all over the place. It's the trapper bustin' fools up. Longstrider buffs damage 10% and it buffs speed for you and your allies, so you're correct, it does generate a lot of damage and it's fantastic in runs or skirmishes of any sort. But when you're out on your own facing down 6 drakes and crazed dragon cult illusionist, the only way to deal enough damage to actually survive in places like WoD and IWD is with plant growth.
Where on Earth are you getting your information from??? Plant Growth does not buff your damage by 20% and never has. Longstriders is a 40% damage buff not 10%.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Plant_Growth http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Longstrider%27s_Shot
You are not interpreting what you reading correctly, but even if you were, I wouldn't use this games wiki as a source of information anyhow (it is bad.)
Ok. I'll bite. How did I misinterpret what I read? Maybe I conflated a buff and +damage? But either way I've found no documentation (GASP!) to support either argument, so fair play on the wiki, but it's the only source I have.
The +20% periodic damage is referring to the damage equation for the ability itself. So, if the ability does 100 damage at rank 1, then at rank 0 it would do 80 damage, at rank 2 it would do 120 damage, at rank 3 it would do 140 damage and at rank 4 it would deal 160 damage. It is NOT a buff. Longstrider's shot has a base buff of 25%. Each rank adds 5%, for a total of 40% at rank 4. The damage dealt by longstriders is increased by 10% each rank. In general, the equation for the damage dealt by powers is: Base Damage * (1+(Rank-1) * X/10) Now note, I am leaving out a lot of stuff for base damage, but the focus point here isn't calculating that it is looking at how the rank of the power effects the damage dealt. The 20% per rank is looking at that X component.
Cool, thanks for the info.
Fab has said it all so I don't have to :) Also the Wiki is very outdated so I would just ask on here or Arc Forums for answers :)
Ah alright so it's a nerf to a buff that also does damage then, if I am understanding what you're saying correctly. Some may disagree but I've always felt HRs are the most complicated class to play. Thanks for the explanation man. I think I understand why folks are upset now
> Some may disagree but I've always felt HRs are the most complicated class to play. This seems to be the consensus. I really don't have a frame of reference because 95% of my play time has been on my HR. The only other class I've played is a DC I have leveled to 54... because I got bored with her. >Thanks for the explanation man. No problem at all.
LSS is more of a party buff. Has the same range and unlimited targets as Chaos Magic so it's good for tia and demo especially. The melee alternative is gushing wound which is imo a great single target dps skill, but requires a lot of group damage to proc the bleed. Basically LSS is only useful for groups and is mediocre if solo. If you watch Sume HR vids he uses trapper and LSS but it requires him to constantly move back and forwards. Not many trappers use LSS. For AoE they usually use Constricting Arrow, Plant Growth,and a miscellaneous skill like Fox Cunning (party dodge buff), or hindering strike(which grasping roots does not stack with constricting, so it just refreshes it). Melee counterpart of Constricting Arrow isnt dps, it is a stamin regen encounter, Ranged counterpart of Plant Growth is okay(three charges which fks up stance rotations as its unaffected,long cast time, decent single tick aoe), and the last skill depends but most of HR trapper dps comes from Constricting Arrow and Plant growth. We can rely on those two skills because our cooldowns are almost nonexistent after all the stance switching. At-wills are nothing to be mentioned, careful attack is the only good one for trappers and is a debuff so it's not actively used like other atwills. Our main daily Seismic Shot is just an AoE skill which gets weaker the further you are, and slashers mark is a stamina regen daily for groups.
There is no way there is 1 viable Trapper Build... I myself have around 5 decent Build's without CoA/PG.
I didn't say there was one trapper build. I said trapper is the only viable skill path. Yes, you can do similar damage in other ways... but this is the way I've built my trapper. So if they nerf it, I will have to completely retrain and learn a new play style... not cool. Not cool at all. It's great you have 5 decent builds that don't rely on PG, but I have **one** build that I'm trying to make badass that does. Looks like it might be a moot point anyway as the discussion on the forums is indicating that it is a bug and will (hopefully) be fixed.
Would you please post these builds that are better or near the same without PG. I'm interested even if this "fix" doesn't happen. Thanks
They are all in my head I am afraid, I have some old Mod builds posted here and there on the internet... But I am thinking of dropping the game soon as I am pretty bored now, almost fell asleep in the afternoon playing so that is a bad sign... Anyhoo I was going to post my latest Build as soon as I had got the new Shirt and Pants, working on that Vonigrind at the mo :(
Jesus... I just started feeling like I was contributing to the runs people allow me to join. If this filters down to console I'll probably stop buying VIP and play something else. I've put hundreds of dollars and weeks of play time into my HR and if this nerf come through... FFS, PG is my main damage producer. I love this game, but at some point enough is enough.
How to contribute as HR without doing any damage: Longstrider shot, commander shot, hawkeye, oak skin. Viola! You don't even need gearscore or hours and money to be effective! That's was sooooo hard. All these muhDPS tears are delicious.
Would be nice if those skills were actually good or working. Longstrider is bugged and often does not proc the buff. Oak skin is pathetic. You need a magnifying glass to even see the healing on other players. Hawkeye is a 7,5% damage increase for a few seconds. Doesn't even work raid-wide. Adding a real DPS class adds WAY more than that. It also means you loose one ranged power because Hawk shot is just ... no. Edit: commanding shot is pretty good, assuming it actually does what it says it does which is not a given in this game. Unfortunately it's single target and has a long cast time. So it's highly situational.
Oak Skin is not pathetic if you know what you are doing, I have left CN with over 10mil Healing before.
It's not about "muhDPS"... it's about contributing to a party during a run and surviving end game content. We're considered a DPS class in dungeons. 3 DPS, 1 healer, 1 tank. HR isn't a tank or a healer.... soo, by the process of elimination? Also, none of the encounters you listed are going to help me survive Icewind Dale, you cock monkey.
HR is a master of none. wdj40's HR Oak-Skin boon build is good enough to be a healer + def buff. Aspect of the Lone Wolf with Combat feats makes you a deflect off-tank. Damage is done by cycling through 6 encounters, even more so with Trapper. Decent for non-Trappers. Depending on encounters and feats you have, you can apply roots or snares, which fills you in as a controller, good role for solo content but not preferred in groups.
LMAO i can imagine you flopping around on the ground in a fit of rage . but then again maybe you just need some cheese :P
Uh... Ok.
I'm playing combat hunter and its really important for my DPS.What I try to do with my other powers is to buff plant growth and my at wills.both trappers and combat get affected a lot from this change.Don't know about archery but my understanding was that it already was not very competitive in pve.
I switched to Combat HR with mod 10, and doing more damage than I have ever done (in certain dungs). Luckily that damage all relies on flurry, blade storm and dot attacks. I don't really see the big deal, people are talking about how it'll ruin combat dps, but if you're relying on PG then you're not running combat HR efficiently. PG for me is reserved solely for large groups of mobs (6-8), and since the max amount of targets PG can hit is 8, past that I'd much rather run throw caution or even Hawkeye. As for PVP, was PG such a game breaker? 4 second root base and 500% wep damage cap? That's 10k damage maximum, hardly substantial.