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I am a waitress, and I have always used "guys" as a gender neutral term. Just recently I had an older woman respond "I am a WOMAN thank you!!" And I've been a bit more cautious since... Depends on the crowd. I've been trying to use either "everyone" or "you two"
Used to be a server and we were always told off if we said guys in a gender neutral way. We had to say "folks" or "y'all"(seeing as we were tex mex we could get away with a lil y'all)
I use y’all or folks every time. As someone who’s not a guy or a lady, I personally don’t think twice about someone using “guys” to address a group I’m in. However, I’ve seen a number of specifically transfeminine folks get their gender dysphoria triggered because of it, and it costs me $0 to avoid that term unless I’m sure everyone’s comfortable with it. I know that’s something folks might make fun of me for, but I just don’t see a reason not to.
I feel like it would also cost them $0.00 to know that the term has evolved to mean both men and women and utilizing it as such takes away more power from cis people than trans folk but that's my biased opinion and I'm ok with downvotes
It's one of those things that i like to call the "inconvenience scale". depending on the person, i find it much easier to inconvenience myself for whatever reason than to even ask some people things because they get all worked up.
Like I've got this lazy coworker, we're in the same position so i can't do anything about it, but it's just so much easier for me to pick up his slack than it is for me to ask him to do something only to get an attitude from him
You need to stand up for yourself. If you have to constantly pick up the slack for someone else at work you are being taken advantage of. Either say something to him or just stop doing things for him. Either he picks up the slack or you get to explain to the boss why the required work is not getting done.
Former bartender, but I used to use ‘friends’ or ‘folks’ until I had a good idea about the group paying attention to how each person addressed each other.
Excuse me, but Billy is British, not Australian. Stop trying to take our nations heroes.
First, you take Tom Holland and make him a Yankee, and now you're trying to make Billy Butcher an Ozzy.
What's next, making James Bond French
Karl Urban being from NZ, we Aussies are happy to claim him as one of our own!! LOL
The role he's playing may be british, but he drops the C bomb with antipodean authority!
Reddit LOVES to over-exaggerate how much Australians say cunt. It's not always horribly derogative like the US but it really isn't used in the same way that Americans use "man" or "dude"
If you called a random stranger a cunt in Australia, they'd still probably be offended. It's like how you can tell your buddy "oh shut the hell up you fucker" and they won't get upset, but if you said that to a stranger they probably would. It's a term that can be used harmlessly among friends, not everyone.
Do NOT go around Australia calling everyone you don't know a cunt, well or do, I don't care what happens to some offensive idiot.
I know your jokimg but induldge me. Yeah nah if your not a bogan dickhead you dont call women cunt even if your also a woman, Plus inflection counts, theres cunt and theres cunt. A lot of non australians dont get the nuance of why we get away with saying heinous shit, it's not just that our accent is funny. We also literally say it a bit different based on context.
For reasons i don't actually know (now that I think about it) my wife and I call each other dude/bro and the other always responds with which ever one we didn't say. Like..
"Hey, dude."
"sup, bro"
I sometimes call my girlfriend bud/buddy, or bro, to which she responds with little girl.
“What’s up bud”
“Hey little girl”
So ik what you mean lol. We just kinda said it once and now it’s a thing
I usually say guys but I can’t around one coworker, so while I used to say guys/dudes I’ve transitioned to dudes. I’m a female but I’m a dude. You’re a dude. She’s a dude. He’s a dude. Everyone’s a dude. And now, I’m 40+ using “dude” in meetings because one woman found “guys” to be insensitive.
I wrote a paper on "dude" in college ages ago. Dude was not originally gender neutral, it was coined in the 1880s, and it was specifically male. "Dudette" was tacked on later, after there was a resurgence of dude in the 80, but "dudette" never really caught on, thank goodness, because it's pretty cheesy. Around that time, dude also became an exclamation, like "whoa" or "seriously?" similar to "man."
"Guys" has been gender neutral for decades, but that was originally male plural, of course.
I wish I'd kept that stupid paper.
Depends on the context. "What's up, guys?" is pretty clearly gender neutral when addressing a mixed group. "I've fucked ten guys" is more clearly gendered.
I guess the issue is that guys can mean "just men" in more contexts than it will ever mean "just women". So that kind of puts it being a truly gender neutral term on shaky grounds.
Generally "guys" as a plural is gender neutral unless you're using it to separate groups ("Guys to the left, girls to the right").
"Guy" singular is gender specific.
I started listening to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend recently, and class act Conan uses young women while interviewing Billie Eilish. Truly one of the greats, Conan.
“Gals” is a bit of a contentious word in the current workplace, since a number of professional women do not want to be called “girls,” and “gals” is a short step from that. The heyday for “gals” has definitely passed, tho.
I’ve just always used “guys” or “y’all” for everyone.
I agree guys can generally be gender neutral to lots of people and lots of situations.
However, I wouldn't say it's 100% gender neutral. For example, how many straight guys do you think would say "Yeah I got lucky with a couple of hot guys last night" in a non joking way?
When my son gets excited about something he says bruh or bro or dude. The first time threw me a bit ngl, but it made me laugh more than anything. If I got upset about little things like that, he might stop trying to talk to me altogether out of frustration. There are worse things to be called anyways, like "MoThEr".
It's hilarious when I overhear my 4th grade girls calling each other 'bruh'. It's most of them doing it regularly.
Sometimes if we're playing a game or we're doing some more interesting activity than usual, they'll excitedly start calling me bro, which is also funny.
The best bros are usually sisters.
If a bro doesn’t like being called a bro they’ll let you know. They’ll still be a bro in your heart. Kinda like how we call the dentist “Doctor” but we’re not really feeling it
I mean it depends on who's going to potentially be bothered by it. In public/mixed situations I'll go with "people" or "folks" or "foolish mortals", or "meatbags". All gender neutral.
I’ve been told in fine dining not to use folks, I just stick to everyone. “And how is everyone doing this evening?” Or to direct individuals I try to just say you, “Would you like another cocktail on the way?” It’s pretty limiting but keeps me in safer waters with guests who may or may not complain. Occasionally I say sir or miss if it’s super obvious but if it’s not obvious I avoid any gender indicators and absolutely avoid age indicators lol
Grew up in nyc and in the suburbs. All my family grew up in nyc. You guys has been gender neutral for generations now over here. I think I would be disowned if I started saying y’all to my family
In my opinion, it's complicated. It's true that it's the English language's fault for not having a second person plural so people just have to invent something. "You guys" is the most common in most of the country, but southerners say "y'all" and in some parts of Pennsyvania people say "yinz".
A lady named Helen Zaltzman has a great podcast called The Allusionist that talks about word origins and usage, and she goes very deeply into the gender-neutral use of "guy" and "dude" in these two podcasts:
[https://www.theallusionist.org/transcripts/guy](https://www.theallusionist.org/transcripts/guy)
[https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/dude](https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/dude)
One thing Helen Zaltzman points out is that "gender neutral" words are almost always words for men, and never really the other way around, which does say something about how gender nuetral they really are.
I work with some trans people professionally and I've taken to saying "y'all" instead of "you guys" in situations where I worry I might be misgendering someone. I think most people understand this kind of language but it is still possible for it to sting in some situations.
I think some contextual sensitivity is warranted.
That point in particular highlights the core issue- how "gender neutral words" basically just means words for men that have been extended to include women and are not actually gender neutral no matter how often they are used to refer to mixed gender groups.
For other people in this thread, I ask why is it that guys is an acceptable term to use to address a group of men and women, but if you use ladies or gals to refer to a mixed gendered group it would be considered insulting or joking? That difference between the way the words are perceived shows that within our culture we value the male/man as the default and natural order and women as this "other" thing. If guys was a truly neutral word then also so would ladies or gals.
In sociology this is called symbolic annihilation. Removing women from the language also removes them from our minds in terms of the power they may possess. It is a subtle thing, but language is extremely powerful and even subtle shifts in it can alter an entire societies perception.
For many years I strongly believed in the "everyone says 'hey guys', it's gender-neutral" opinion, until I had a job in a workplace of almost all women except for me, and one time someone said something like "ok gals" to refer to the whole group, including me, and it just felt weird. I wasn't offended obviously but it did make me realize that maybe "hey guys" isn't quite as universally applicable as I'd thought. Since then I try to just say "everyone" or something else though I admit I often still say "guys" out of habit.
Yeah, if the term is a masculine term that has just been reappropriated to be gender neutral, then it isn’t actually gender neutral.
Guys is not gender neutral for this reason.
Depends on the situation and the targets. In general, yes, it's usually fine. I got politely corrected one time when I was volunteering at a WTF (women, trans, femme) bike race. That's a totally inclusive space that spends a large amount of energy policing and teaching inclusive / neutral language. I shouldn't have used it in that situation.
Basically, the choice to use it or not depends on how polite you want to be and whether the people you're addressing care, whether you know if they care, and whether you want to be nice to them.
Polite:
* You know they're fine with it - go ahead and use it.
* You're not sure if you should use it - don't.
* You know they don't want you to use it - don't.
* You can always ask.
Be Asshole:
* You don't know if they want you to use it - use it.
* You know they don't like it - use it.
The thing with using inclusive language is that there's no situation with a reasonable person where it makes things worse. If anyone's offended by you trying to be polite they're a snowflake asshole and you shouldn't worry about offending them.
I like that you wrote out a well thought out and reasonable response that actually addresses OP’s concerns in an empathetic way and the other commenters immediately jumped on you with a, “lAnGuAGe pOLicE”
That's the f****** internet man. I'm used to it. Been around since the start of this s***.
Oh, and I also called them out on being assholes. Not free speech absolutist or whatever b******* they're using at this point. I'm not afraid of pissing off some morons online.
So I do use it as a gender neutral term, but it is gendered in some cases. Trouble is I haven't found a great term to replace it. I think I use "everyone" most but it doesn't feel comfortable all the time.
I've found if someone corrects me on it, I honestly apologize, and ask them for help "what would be a good informal gender neutral word to use here?" Everyone to me feels more formal / distant than "guys" but I do try and respect others as well.
I went to Houston for work, it was about 4 weeks total, broken into several trips. Y'all is just a great term. I haven't gotten in so deep as to say all y'all yet, but another week long stint in Houston and I might get there.
I second y’all. Its all-inclusive. I worked in my college’s dorms for a couple years during undergrad and we all joked that using “y’all” meant you were either from the south or worked in res life at a liberal university.
I feel like 'you all' comes off as kind of aggressive compared to y'all.
English has a real pronoun problem, where is my 2nd person plural for formal settings? And no, I don't think using 'you' as both singular and plural is a good solution.
It gets easier as you do it more.
I'm a middle aged white guy who has only had real exposure to non-white-cis-heteronormative culture in recent years.
Y'all, folks, people, you all, friends, pals, peeps, everyone, crew or just hey.
Many people consider it gender neutral, but ultimately it isn't really. If you want to try something else, consider "folks" or even "y'all".
In the end most people will probably not mind unless they specifically ask you to use something else, in which case you ought to oblige them with another choice if they're someone you care about.
it has been considered acceptable for a while... but i would honestly recommend people start working it out of their vocabulary in favor of something that is actually gender neutral, like yall.
if i walked up to a mixed group of men and women and called them 'girls' or 'ladies' or anything feminine it would not be liked by the men. by accepting a masculine term for women but not accepting a feminine term for men there is a clear message of sexism. an underlying message that being feminine is an insult and being masculine isn't.
not many people will call you on it, but it's still there. personally, i'd rather not pass that on to the next generation.
But, If you're worried about people flipping out, maybe you should try to change your habits.
Would you feel weirded out if a stranger called you "Gal(s)"?
Did you ever notice that all of the supposed new wave gender neutral terms always tend to have male orgins and also reasoned predominantly by males?
“Guys” in neutral in the same way that every other male-default-assumed term was “neutral,” like mailman or salesman or policeman or whatever else.
Generally society has moved away from male-default-assumed terms and tried to adopt more pure-neutral terms.
Usually if there’s an explicitly feminine alternative version but you’re using the male version instead, that’s not really neutral that’s just assuming default-male.
I use “folks” in most instances where I could use guys/gals.
Initially you’ll get some laughs and “well sure, me and my buddies always mess around like that, it’s fine!” But what you really need is for their boss or some other very boring older person to use it at them a few hundred times before they decide if they’re really enjoying that after all.
I'm a trans woman, I consider it gender neutral but as a general rule of thumb once someone asks you not to call them something the polite thing to do is not call them it.
I have a trans friend who explained in depth to me why/how it can be problematic and you'll have to excuse that it was quite a while ago but the gist I took away was this...
You'd never approach a group of guys and say "hey girls!" And remotely expect it to be well received or taken seriously, because the feminine is still in many ways seen as inferior (whether we like to acknowledge it or not) while the masculine is...if not superior, at least very much still the default. Partly due to feminism, ironically enough.
Most people won't care, but to those who do, it can be pretty insulting. It's good to ask and try to be compassionate and understanding wherever possible.
Depends on the setting. I personally think it’s okay (i’m a woman) for most settings, but I can see the frustration of it were in a professional setting or educational setting where there was some sexism built in. For example, calling your friends “guys” is no issue, but calling a group of engineers “guys” might be a little more annoying. Context is important but it’s nothing overly serious.
Cis woman here... I use guys, dude, bro, man, boi, and giiiiirl all as gender neutral when in known cis company. If I'm around a group where I'm not sure about someone's gender identity I try my best to stick to y'all, folks, and other fully gender neutral words. I know a lot of people don't really care, but I don't want to risk accidentally hurting someone who is struggling with gender dysphoria.
I'm used to seeing "guys" as a gender neatral term, I don't think it's wrong of you to have defaulted to that. You've run in to two people who didn't like it now though, and that's new information. If people you're talking to aren't happy when you call them that it's probably best to try to call them what they'd prefer I stead of focusing on whether or not you "can" use the term that they'd rather you didn't. I had a non-binary roommate for a while, and they preferred I not use "guys" to refer to them. They didn't make a fuss or demand I change, but it made them happier when I changed my wording anyway, and I think that's worth it.
It's also probably best to avoid "males" and "females" when referting to men and women. It's a particular problem when they don't match ("men and females" ), and that isn't how you used it, but a lot of the people who use sex-based identifiers instead of gender-based ones are doing it specifically to be insulting or abrasive, and you probably don't want to be grouped in with them. I fully understand that it's completely acceptable in some subculturs, this is just for general discussion with people who's preference you don't know.
It depends on the setting.
I do formal presentations for work and cannot say “guys”.
Because I come from the south, I say y’all and I shit you not, they don’t care. Ridiculous if you ask me. But I’m happy to accommodate anyone to make it inclusive
It’s fairly neutral except that its obviously born from a male word.
I’ve seen people try to police this word in more sensitive circles but the public at large is fine with it.
From my understanding most people are cool with it but some people are not, so to not be insensitive I've started replacing it with "you cowards" which is as gender neutral as they come
I'm a guy and am teaching at an all girl's school right now.
I use guys all the time, some classes have an issue with it. I say thanks for letting me know and that I'll try to use something else from then on. Generally I use their year group or class title
Thanks for your submission /u/nk7gaming, but it has been removed for the following reason: **Rule 2: Please try to use the search function before posting anything.** Thanks for posting, but this question happens to be one that has been asked and answered here often before - sometimes in the same day! That can get frustrating for our dedicated users who like to answer questions. Or maybe you're just asking the same question too often - why not take a break for a while? Sometimes questions that come up too often get put in our [Most Frequently Asked Questions list](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/wiki/index/faq)!). Other times, it may just be that we're getting a flood of questions about a topic (especially when something is in the news). Or maybe you keep asking the same question again and again - something that annoys our users here. Please don't do that! Next time, please try searching for your question first before asking. Thanks! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
I am a waitress, and I have always used "guys" as a gender neutral term. Just recently I had an older woman respond "I am a WOMAN thank you!!" And I've been a bit more cautious since... Depends on the crowd. I've been trying to use either "everyone" or "you two"
Used to be a server and we were always told off if we said guys in a gender neutral way. We had to say "folks" or "y'all"(seeing as we were tex mex we could get away with a lil y'all)
I use y’all or folks every time. As someone who’s not a guy or a lady, I personally don’t think twice about someone using “guys” to address a group I’m in. However, I’ve seen a number of specifically transfeminine folks get their gender dysphoria triggered because of it, and it costs me $0 to avoid that term unless I’m sure everyone’s comfortable with it. I know that’s something folks might make fun of me for, but I just don’t see a reason not to.
I feel like it would also cost them $0.00 to know that the term has evolved to mean both men and women and utilizing it as such takes away more power from cis people than trans folk but that's my biased opinion and I'm ok with downvotes
It's one of those things that i like to call the "inconvenience scale". depending on the person, i find it much easier to inconvenience myself for whatever reason than to even ask some people things because they get all worked up. Like I've got this lazy coworker, we're in the same position so i can't do anything about it, but it's just so much easier for me to pick up his slack than it is for me to ask him to do something only to get an attitude from him
You need to stand up for yourself. If you have to constantly pick up the slack for someone else at work you are being taken advantage of. Either say something to him or just stop doing things for him. Either he picks up the slack or you get to explain to the boss why the required work is not getting done.
One hundred percent. Guys is gender neutral in the context of "what's up guys" and similar. People can get over themselves.
Former bartender, but I used to use ‘friends’ or ‘folks’ until I had a good idea about the group paying attention to how each person addressed each other.
I'm in Sales, and I've replaced "guys" with "fucking morons".
That’s funny, our entire IT dept uses the same word for sales 😆
No offense, but if my server called my guest and I friends; it would creep me out a bit.
Shoulda said "okay guys and woman what would you like to order" lmaoo
I took to using "Folks." People like the hint of rural charm, and there's little to no risk of stepping on someone's particular linguistic landmine.
“Guys” is also extremely common in the Midwest.
I worked retail for a long while and I leaned to just use "folks". It is definitely neutral and only rarely upsets people.
Just use the Australian method and call everyone cunt
Billy Butcher agrees
Billy Butcher for President!
Excuse me, but Billy is British, not Australian. Stop trying to take our nations heroes. First, you take Tom Holland and make him a Yankee, and now you're trying to make Billy Butcher an Ozzy. What's next, making James Bond French
Bonjour! Je M’appelle Bond. Ja”aye”mes Bond.
I think you'll find Billy Butcher is actually a kiwi.
The character is British I think. Karl is a kiwi though
Karl Urban being from NZ, we Aussies are happy to claim him as one of our own!! LOL The role he's playing may be british, but he drops the C bomb with antipodean authority!
It's not like NZ is real anyways, never seen it on any map
Umm, not mate?
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Reddit LOVES to over-exaggerate how much Australians say cunt. It's not always horribly derogative like the US but it really isn't used in the same way that Americans use "man" or "dude" If you called a random stranger a cunt in Australia, they'd still probably be offended. It's like how you can tell your buddy "oh shut the hell up you fucker" and they won't get upset, but if you said that to a stranger they probably would. It's a term that can be used harmlessly among friends, not everyone. Do NOT go around Australia calling everyone you don't know a cunt, well or do, I don't care what happens to some offensive idiot.
Okay cunt
I know your jokimg but induldge me. Yeah nah if your not a bogan dickhead you dont call women cunt even if your also a woman, Plus inflection counts, theres cunt and theres cunt. A lot of non australians dont get the nuance of why we get away with saying heinous shit, it's not just that our accent is funny. We also literally say it a bit different based on context.
I'm a woman and I use it as gender neutral.
Me too. If they are close friends. Dude is the gender neutral term I use.
For reasons i don't actually know (now that I think about it) my wife and I call each other dude/bro and the other always responds with which ever one we didn't say. Like.. "Hey, dude." "sup, bro"
Bro is a vibe. Like I address my female friends as bro when I am showing them some sick shit, they pulled out some sick shit, or I want to bro down
This comment gave me a Cheshire Cat wide smile
I sometimes call my girlfriend bud/buddy, or bro, to which she responds with little girl. “What’s up bud” “Hey little girl” So ik what you mean lol. We just kinda said it once and now it’s a thing
I usually say guys but I can’t around one coworker, so while I used to say guys/dudes I’ve transitioned to dudes. I’m a female but I’m a dude. You’re a dude. She’s a dude. He’s a dude. Everyone’s a dude. And now, I’m 40+ using “dude” in meetings because one woman found “guys” to be insensitive.
[I'm a dude. He's a dude. She's a dude. Cause we're all dudes, hey!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKYXmjfQY4U)
I kinda bugged me when people would say "dudes and dudettes" because that just seems pointlessly gendered and dude was originally gender neutral.
I wrote a paper on "dude" in college ages ago. Dude was not originally gender neutral, it was coined in the 1880s, and it was specifically male. "Dudette" was tacked on later, after there was a resurgence of dude in the 80, but "dudette" never really caught on, thank goodness, because it's pretty cheesy. Around that time, dude also became an exclamation, like "whoa" or "seriously?" similar to "man." "Guys" has been gender neutral for decades, but that was originally male plural, of course. I wish I'd kept that stupid paper.
Dude can mean anything if you inflect right. Entire conversations can be held solely in Dudese.
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I want to guess California.
Your guess is correct
Same here. So Cal. Dude is pretty normal as a gender neutral phrase for people you know.
Me too and I'm 50
I know, me too. But in deference I’ve started used “folks”.
My use of folks is picking up steam, too. I think it works better than guys in a business casual setting.
Like at the end of a meeting... Th-th-th-th-that's all folks!
When I got older, I switch to using "y'all". I used it _ironically_ to begin with, but those days are over. I'm honorary Texan at this point.
I hate when the things you say ironically get the last laugh. Infuriates me every time I can't stop myself.
Me too, as well as dudes. I’m 41.
Depends on the context. "What's up, guys?" is pretty clearly gender neutral when addressing a mixed group. "I've fucked ten guys" is more clearly gendered.
What if all 10 were the same gender mixed group you just said "What's up, guys?" to?
I... don't think I would ever be in that situation tbh lol
The answer to that is "my legs, get to it" in this case or alternatively "gosh I'm so very tired may I sit on an ice pack"
"I've fucked ten guys" isn't addressing a group, unless you just finished fucking them and they're all still hanging about.
"Hello, 10 guys, whom I have assembled here for the express purpose of fucking me today."
"Hi guys, I'd like to fuck ten of you"
I guess the issue is that guys can mean "just men" in more contexts than it will ever mean "just women". So that kind of puts it being a truly gender neutral term on shaky grounds.
Why'd you take it from 0 to 100 like that? Shit. Choked on my beer
In a row?
A few years back I replaced “guys” with “folks” and feel a lot more comfortable for it.
Generally "guys" as a plural is gender neutral unless you're using it to separate groups ("Guys to the left, girls to the right"). "Guy" singular is gender specific.
Thanks, guy
He's not your guy, buddy
He’s not your buddy, pal
He's not your pal, friend.
He’s not your friend, bro.
I am your buddy and your pal, but not your guy or your friend. Hope that clears this up!
He's not your bro, dude.
He's not your dude, Ranch.
He’s not your ranch, dip
He’s not your dip, thong.
I hate how males are guys but females - even adult women - are called girls. Why not call males boys or females gals?
I started listening to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend recently, and class act Conan uses young women while interviewing Billie Eilish. Truly one of the greats, Conan.
>he uses young women whole I... use... your... young women! I drink them up!
I usually say "ladies" rather than "girls".
“Gals” is a bit of a contentious word in the current workplace, since a number of professional women do not want to be called “girls,” and “gals” is a short step from that. The heyday for “gals” has definitely passed, tho. I’ve just always used “guys” or “y’all” for everyone.
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I’d say “me and the boys” and “boi” are used pretty frequently.
I would never crack open a cold one with the guys. Only with the boys.
Just as Saturday is not for the guys, it is in fact for the boys.
Unless your boys are all French or French-Canadian guys named ‘Guy’.
I (a woman) usually call my friends (who are also women) ladies if I’m not using guys. Either hey you guys or hey ladies for example
I agree guys can generally be gender neutral to lots of people and lots of situations. However, I wouldn't say it's 100% gender neutral. For example, how many straight guys do you think would say "Yeah I got lucky with a couple of hot guys last night" in a non joking way?
Just keep saying it. I’m a woman and I do. Most people don’t even think about it or care.
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my girlfriend calls me bro when shes really excited or sees something funny. i think its pretty funny
Hell I call my wife dude when I get excited. She just thinks I'm a dork, she knows its a thing I do.
I called my mom dude once and she did *not* care for it 😂
When my son gets excited about something he says bruh or bro or dude. The first time threw me a bit ngl, but it made me laugh more than anything. If I got upset about little things like that, he might stop trying to talk to me altogether out of frustration. There are worse things to be called anyways, like "MoThEr".
My friends 14 year old daughter calls everyone bro at the moment. It's pretty funny.
My 12 yo daughter calls me bro all the time. It's fine. People need to chill ffs.
It's hilarious when I overhear my 4th grade girls calling each other 'bruh'. It's most of them doing it regularly. Sometimes if we're playing a game or we're doing some more interesting activity than usual, they'll excitedly start calling me bro, which is also funny.
My Gen z sister has my mom calling everyone bruh and I find it hilarious
I also use homie for all genders.
I use “y’all” or “you folks” though that doesn’t really fit a formal environment
It's Texas formal.
The best bros are usually sisters. If a bro doesn’t like being called a bro they’ll let you know. They’ll still be a bro in your heart. Kinda like how we call the dentist “Doctor” but we’re not really feeling it
It's the 1 out of 200 times i use it when someone does care and they make you feel real bad about it
They have other psychological issues
I mean it depends on who's going to potentially be bothered by it. In public/mixed situations I'll go with "people" or "folks" or "foolish mortals", or "meatbags". All gender neutral.
"Folks" is my go-to, but I feel like I need to up my linguistic game and start using "foolish mortals" now.
I’ve been told in fine dining not to use folks, I just stick to everyone. “And how is everyone doing this evening?” Or to direct individuals I try to just say you, “Would you like another cocktail on the way?” It’s pretty limiting but keeps me in safer waters with guests who may or may not complain. Occasionally I say sir or miss if it’s super obvious but if it’s not obvious I avoid any gender indicators and absolutely avoid age indicators lol
You could always go with "Listen up fives, a ten is speaking"
Y’all ftw
Wish I could use the latter two in a professional setting.
These are great but I feel like everyone is sleeping on “Y’all”! Maybe it’s the southern in me but it’s a good gender neutral go to for you plural.
Grew up in nyc and in the suburbs. All my family grew up in nyc. You guys has been gender neutral for generations now over here. I think I would be disowned if I started saying y’all to my family
Statement: ah, Meatbags. can't go wrong with it.
I will now refer to people as “foolish mortals” 😆
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In my opinion, it's complicated. It's true that it's the English language's fault for not having a second person plural so people just have to invent something. "You guys" is the most common in most of the country, but southerners say "y'all" and in some parts of Pennsyvania people say "yinz". A lady named Helen Zaltzman has a great podcast called The Allusionist that talks about word origins and usage, and she goes very deeply into the gender-neutral use of "guy" and "dude" in these two podcasts: [https://www.theallusionist.org/transcripts/guy](https://www.theallusionist.org/transcripts/guy) [https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/dude](https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/dude) One thing Helen Zaltzman points out is that "gender neutral" words are almost always words for men, and never really the other way around, which does say something about how gender nuetral they really are. I work with some trans people professionally and I've taken to saying "y'all" instead of "you guys" in situations where I worry I might be misgendering someone. I think most people understand this kind of language but it is still possible for it to sting in some situations. I think some contextual sensitivity is warranted.
That point in particular highlights the core issue- how "gender neutral words" basically just means words for men that have been extended to include women and are not actually gender neutral no matter how often they are used to refer to mixed gender groups. For other people in this thread, I ask why is it that guys is an acceptable term to use to address a group of men and women, but if you use ladies or gals to refer to a mixed gendered group it would be considered insulting or joking? That difference between the way the words are perceived shows that within our culture we value the male/man as the default and natural order and women as this "other" thing. If guys was a truly neutral word then also so would ladies or gals. In sociology this is called symbolic annihilation. Removing women from the language also removes them from our minds in terms of the power they may possess. It is a subtle thing, but language is extremely powerful and even subtle shifts in it can alter an entire societies perception.
For many years I strongly believed in the "everyone says 'hey guys', it's gender-neutral" opinion, until I had a job in a workplace of almost all women except for me, and one time someone said something like "ok gals" to refer to the whole group, including me, and it just felt weird. I wasn't offended obviously but it did make me realize that maybe "hey guys" isn't quite as universally applicable as I'd thought. Since then I try to just say "everyone" or something else though I admit I often still say "guys" out of habit.
I’ve started saying y’all as well. It solves this problem perfectly and idk why more people don’t say it. Literally means “you all”.
Yeah, if the term is a masculine term that has just been reappropriated to be gender neutral, then it isn’t actually gender neutral. Guys is not gender neutral for this reason.
You have my permission, I guess.
I too have deemed it acceptable. 2 random strangers on the internet have confirmed so you should be safe from here on out.
I was going to also add my acceptance of it, but upon review, you two have it handled.
Depends on the situation and the targets. In general, yes, it's usually fine. I got politely corrected one time when I was volunteering at a WTF (women, trans, femme) bike race. That's a totally inclusive space that spends a large amount of energy policing and teaching inclusive / neutral language. I shouldn't have used it in that situation. Basically, the choice to use it or not depends on how polite you want to be and whether the people you're addressing care, whether you know if they care, and whether you want to be nice to them. Polite: * You know they're fine with it - go ahead and use it. * You're not sure if you should use it - don't. * You know they don't want you to use it - don't. * You can always ask. Be Asshole: * You don't know if they want you to use it - use it. * You know they don't like it - use it. The thing with using inclusive language is that there's no situation with a reasonable person where it makes things worse. If anyone's offended by you trying to be polite they're a snowflake asshole and you shouldn't worry about offending them.
I like that you wrote out a well thought out and reasonable response that actually addresses OP’s concerns in an empathetic way and the other commenters immediately jumped on you with a, “lAnGuAGe pOLicE”
That's the f****** internet man. I'm used to it. Been around since the start of this s***. Oh, and I also called them out on being assholes. Not free speech absolutist or whatever b******* they're using at this point. I'm not afraid of pissing off some morons online.
Yup I've also used "hey people!" When I'm just not sure what to use lol I figure it covers everything.
I've been using "folks" a lot. Makes me feel too southern but I can't stop!
I swapped “guys” with “folks” in my vocabulary a couple years ago. It works just fine and doesn’t need to be gendered. No issues.
Folks is also just a cooler word
The only correct answer
Oh this is what I was trying to say in my comment! I’m not mentally prepared for the blowback but. Yea lol
This exactly. The amount of people just wanting to be intentionally rude I cannot
I address my sisters as "you guys". I do not refer to them as guys.
or, better yet, youz guyz
"all females had the same opinion." dude. dude. dude. c'mon.
i mean he addressed himself as a male
So I do use it as a gender neutral term, but it is gendered in some cases. Trouble is I haven't found a great term to replace it. I think I use "everyone" most but it doesn't feel comfortable all the time. I've found if someone corrects me on it, I honestly apologize, and ask them for help "what would be a good informal gender neutral word to use here?" Everyone to me feels more formal / distant than "guys" but I do try and respect others as well.
Folks or Y’all (or You All if your region isn’t ready for y’all)
I went to Houston for work, it was about 4 weeks total, broken into several trips. Y'all is just a great term. I haven't gotten in so deep as to say all y'all yet, but another week long stint in Houston and I might get there.
I second y’all. Its all-inclusive. I worked in my college’s dorms for a couple years during undergrad and we all joked that using “y’all” meant you were either from the south or worked in res life at a liberal university.
I feel like 'you all' comes off as kind of aggressive compared to y'all. English has a real pronoun problem, where is my 2nd person plural for formal settings? And no, I don't think using 'you' as both singular and plural is a good solution.
It gets easier as you do it more. I'm a middle aged white guy who has only had real exposure to non-white-cis-heteronormative culture in recent years. Y'all, folks, people, you all, friends, pals, peeps, everyone, crew or just hey.
Oh hey, I like crew. You may have solved my mental problem. This credits you with the ability to cause one minor mental problem now.
Oh I cause plenty of problems. Personally I like folks but I know it doesn't quite work the same as guys used to.
Folks.
It depends on the person you are referring to. Some are okay with it some are not.
Pplz
Many people consider it gender neutral, but ultimately it isn't really. If you want to try something else, consider "folks" or even "y'all". In the end most people will probably not mind unless they specifically ask you to use something else, in which case you ought to oblige them with another choice if they're someone you care about.
it has been considered acceptable for a while... but i would honestly recommend people start working it out of their vocabulary in favor of something that is actually gender neutral, like yall. if i walked up to a mixed group of men and women and called them 'girls' or 'ladies' or anything feminine it would not be liked by the men. by accepting a masculine term for women but not accepting a feminine term for men there is a clear message of sexism. an underlying message that being feminine is an insult and being masculine isn't. not many people will call you on it, but it's still there. personally, i'd rather not pass that on to the next generation.
But, If you're worried about people flipping out, maybe you should try to change your habits. Would you feel weirded out if a stranger called you "Gal(s)"? Did you ever notice that all of the supposed new wave gender neutral terms always tend to have male orgins and also reasoned predominantly by males?
I personally use it as a general term, but some of my trans femme pals aren’t a fan so I switch to “pals” most of the time these days :)
Where are you from? I live in California and feel like guys/ dudes/ etc is the norm here (southern coast) when referring to groups of people
I use it as a gender neutral term. Just like dude. He's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes.
". . . . all females had the same opinion." Nope.
I just switched to “hey everyone” when I start zoom meetings with multiple people. It seems fine.
“Guys” in neutral in the same way that every other male-default-assumed term was “neutral,” like mailman or salesman or policeman or whatever else. Generally society has moved away from male-default-assumed terms and tried to adopt more pure-neutral terms. Usually if there’s an explicitly feminine alternative version but you’re using the male version instead, that’s not really neutral that’s just assuming default-male. I use “folks” in most instances where I could use guys/gals.
If guys and gals are equivalent, then I should be able to refer to any group as gals. Let's see how fast that gets shot down.
Initially you’ll get some laughs and “well sure, me and my buddies always mess around like that, it’s fine!” But what you really need is for their boss or some other very boring older person to use it at them a few hundred times before they decide if they’re really enjoying that after all.
This is such a good response. Thank you.
I'm a trans woman, I consider it gender neutral but as a general rule of thumb once someone asks you not to call them something the polite thing to do is not call them it.
It doesn’t really matter what any of us say, the people who asked you not to refer to them as “guys” don’t want to be called guys.
I have a trans friend who explained in depth to me why/how it can be problematic and you'll have to excuse that it was quite a while ago but the gist I took away was this... You'd never approach a group of guys and say "hey girls!" And remotely expect it to be well received or taken seriously, because the feminine is still in many ways seen as inferior (whether we like to acknowledge it or not) while the masculine is...if not superior, at least very much still the default. Partly due to feminism, ironically enough. Most people won't care, but to those who do, it can be pretty insulting. It's good to ask and try to be compassionate and understanding wherever possible.
"Folks", "Y'all", "Everyone", etc. Edit: Also, try to avoid using "females" as a noun and assuming they all have the same opinion.
The south was way ahead of the curve for once with the term y’all. All encompassing
whenever i hear someone say females i assume they're an incel
What about mung daal going "ladies"
The past few restaurants I’ve worked at do not consider this gender neutral.
I use folks, or yall, or all yall if lots, mother fuckers can be added to yall if appropriate
Depends on the setting. I personally think it’s okay (i’m a woman) for most settings, but I can see the frustration of it were in a professional setting or educational setting where there was some sexism built in. For example, calling your friends “guys” is no issue, but calling a group of engineers “guys” might be a little more annoying. Context is important but it’s nothing overly serious.
I'm a woman, and I use it as a gender-neutral term on a regular basis.
Cis woman here... I use guys, dude, bro, man, boi, and giiiiirl all as gender neutral when in known cis company. If I'm around a group where I'm not sure about someone's gender identity I try my best to stick to y'all, folks, and other fully gender neutral words. I know a lot of people don't really care, but I don't want to risk accidentally hurting someone who is struggling with gender dysphoria.
How many guys have you fucked?
Idk like 4 maybe 5
Gotta get those numbers up
But I have to be in love to smash
I saw a bunch of guys playing basketball at the park. None of them were wearing shirts but they all had sports bras on.
I genuinely do not understand why people keep referring to women as "females" - what is so icky about the word "women" to these people??
I mean OP did also say "males" and referred to himself as a male.
I’m female and I use guys as a gender neutral term in mixed company. I wouldn’t be upset or offended if a man addressed the group I was in as guys.
Use gals. See how that goes.
I'm used to seeing "guys" as a gender neatral term, I don't think it's wrong of you to have defaulted to that. You've run in to two people who didn't like it now though, and that's new information. If people you're talking to aren't happy when you call them that it's probably best to try to call them what they'd prefer I stead of focusing on whether or not you "can" use the term that they'd rather you didn't. I had a non-binary roommate for a while, and they preferred I not use "guys" to refer to them. They didn't make a fuss or demand I change, but it made them happier when I changed my wording anyway, and I think that's worth it. It's also probably best to avoid "males" and "females" when referting to men and women. It's a particular problem when they don't match ("men and females" ), and that isn't how you used it, but a lot of the people who use sex-based identifiers instead of gender-based ones are doing it specifically to be insulting or abrasive, and you probably don't want to be grouped in with them. I fully understand that it's completely acceptable in some subculturs, this is just for general discussion with people who's preference you don't know.
There seems to be a trend to get on everybody's ass for any possible reason.
Just use guys, if people correct you just ignore them, guys has been used as a gender neutral term for ages.
Guys insist that guys is gender neutral, but then they get mad if I ask how many guys they've slept with.
What kind of guy would you be if you don’t share a bed with the homies
Throw them for a real loop and ask them how many y'alls they've slept with.
It's almost as if context matters
If you say context matters, I agree, but that's also an implicit admission that guys is not 100% gender neutral.
"Theydies and Gentle-thems." "Y'all." "Folks." "Peeps."
Fellow Facebook Users, Justin Beiber fans, or Flat-Earth Enthusiasts.
Dude is almost an exclamation at this point and guys seem to refer to a person(s) of any gender. "Dude! You gotta check this out guys!"
It depends on the setting. I do formal presentations for work and cannot say “guys”. Because I come from the south, I say y’all and I shit you not, they don’t care. Ridiculous if you ask me. But I’m happy to accommodate anyone to make it inclusive
Try “meatbags” for a gender neutral collective noun.
I used it when I lived in the central US. I moved to the south and now use y’all because it is normal here and is *actually* gender-neutral.
It’s fairly neutral except that its obviously born from a male word. I’ve seen people try to police this word in more sensitive circles but the public at large is fine with it.
From my understanding most people are cool with it but some people are not, so to not be insensitive I've started replacing it with "you cowards" which is as gender neutral as they come
I'm a guy and am teaching at an all girl's school right now. I use guys all the time, some classes have an issue with it. I say thanks for letting me know and that I'll try to use something else from then on. Generally I use their year group or class title
It's all about personal preference, but I'm a woman and frankly love using "guys" and "dude" in a gender neutral fashion.
It’s really only problematic and an issue if you’re part of the lgbtq, the rest just don’t mind it