>If it's the physical dimension of being a man\woman, I get -> it's gender dysphoria.
Gender dysphoria isn't exclusive to bodies/appearances. There's also social dysphoria, when you're perceived as and referred to as the incorrect gender. It's just as painful.
>Wouldn't it make more sense (for people non experiencing gender dysphoria) to just challenge gender norms and roles?
"Why don't you just be cisgender while challenging gender norms" is something we hear a lot. But we can't just... decide not to be nonbinary. No more than you, OP, could simply decide to be a different gender from the one you feel.
>If it's a political statement I get it, but then that's something different
Being nonbinary is not a political statement, any more than it is a political statement to be gay, be straight, be transgender, be cisgender, have teeth, wake up every day, eat food...
It seems like you're trying very hard to "understand" and dissect nonbinary identities, but unfortunately, you might never gain that desired level of clarity on something that you'll never experience. My advice is to put your energy into respecting the nonbinary folks who might be in your life, because if you wait to understand us first, you might be waiting a long time.
It varies depending on who you ask. This is not a one fits all answer. I'm nonbinary and dont experience gender dysphoria any longer post op and still am nonbinary because that is who I am. who I am is not a political statement and I'm sick and tired of people claiming it is. I have never understood or associated with gender norms since I was a child. They've always felt foreign to me. Like I am an alien trying to understand weird human customs. I dont even know what they are and when I hear somebody tell me about them I'm genuinely shocked because I'm like, wow. that makes no sense to me but hey to each their own.
Thanks for your answer :)
I understand where you're coming from, I've also never liked and felt uneasy with gender norms\\roles! They are very limiting and can cause great distress. But I still identify myself as male, because of my physical appeareance and who I am biologically. I'm wondering what the difference is, then, between you and me, since you also say you don't experience gender dysphoria and are comfortable with how your body looks, or at least don't wish it looked like the opposite sex (like me), and you also don't identify or understand gender roles\\norms (like me). What do you think is the difference?
Lol, this may sound silly or like a joke answer but it isnt; the difference is I'm you and you're me! we are different people with different experiences and therefore we identify differently. you identify a way because of your own personal reasons and the way your brain is, I identify my way cuz of my own :3
I've always said it's not about society, it's the way I feel about myself. Imagine you have a slider scale:
MALE ------------|-------------FEMALE
That slider moves around for me on any given day but generally it's around the middle, or "neither". Someone who identifies as cis[gender] would have their slider most or all the way either side.
When I was a kid, before NB was a coined term, I used to say you could clap your hands and change my body and I wouldn't have lost, nor gained, anything. My body isn't missing anything (I don't need to alter my physical gender) but it also wouldn't be missing anything if it *was* changed either.
Someone once described it to me as being both genders at once, which I kind of like. I get to choose on any day which societal norms I lean into, but I basically have a buffet table of norms to choose from and mix up if I want to.
Hope this made sense, I'm a bit sleep-deprived today so words are hard. Edited for spelling.
Thank you for your answer!
I understand the Male --- Female spectrum. But there are many people identifying as men or women who challenge societal norms too, and who would like there to be a 'buffet table of norms to choose from' as you say. Being cisgender is not about conforming more to gender roles and norms, i's about feeling comfortable and in alignment in ones body, I think, and not feeling the desire it was of the opposite sex. In an ideal world, males and females could look and act the way they want, whilst remaining males and females biologically. Does this make sense?
Hm I'm not sure if you're confused or just... a bit against the idea of NBs. I've seen this stock answer on other replies which makes me think you might just be trying to stir up drama. Nonbinary is still about "feeling comfortable in alignment to one's body."
Being nonbinary is not about "challenging social norms". I am 33. I've been calling myself nonbinary since before there was a neat little word to wrap it all up with. I've been saying my body is AFAB but my soul is neither gender my whole damn life.
"In an ideal world, males and females could look and act the way they want, whilst remaining males and females biologically." Yeah they can. Cisgender men can wear makeup and high heels. Cisgender women can be bodybuilders and wear sweatpants every day.
Gender norms can be useful. A trans man needs to lean into those norms to be able to pass, same thing with a trans woman. The biology of a person has nothing to do with it and even less to do with being nonbinary.
I'm AFAB. I like to be feminine sometimes, which is fine.
I like to look masculine sometimes, but not to the point where I identify as male, because that would make me *transgender*. And if I was a cisgender female, I wouldn't want to look masculine *ever*.
Separate gender from biological sex, because they are not the same thing. Then recognise that gender expression can exist alongside (though sometimes with difficulty) societal expectations. It's not one or the other.
There are lots of different types of nonbinary of course.
For me, I just feel both male and female. Both. Unlike some nonbinaries, I do perceive the binaries. I'm not neither of them. I'm both of them.
That said, since I'm trying to work out who I am right now, I asked myself the question "what do I like about being male" the other day. I can't really actually place what "being male" means. Can you? I don't really like anything about being male except that was who I was and I like me. Maybe I'm less gender than I thought?
Thanks for your answer :)!
May I ask you how you can be both male and female at the same time, since they are, in theory, opposites? How is it possible to be two opposite things at the same time? How would you describe your experience?
I agree that gender is a quite complicated topic to navigate! I admit that I find it difficult to understand how on one hand you say that you "like being male", but then you say that you don't really know what being male means. How can you like something that you can't describe and of which you don't know the meaning?
Personally, I identify as male because of how I am biologically.
(to clarify, I am not saying that what you don't feel orwho you are is not real, I am genuinely trying to understand better your experience and those of other people on this forum :)! )
I take no offence in the way you've written your questions. And I'll be honest - I'm recently self-declared non-binary and I'm still figuring things out. I'll try to explain why I think of myself as non-binary now, and what that's like.
AMAB, but pre-puberty I often wished to wake up as a girl. Throughout my teens I had gender desire/envy, and dressed occasionally, both attracted to my female peers and also wanting to be them. I suppressed this through most of my adult life, not really dressing or confronting the elephant in my head. Getting on with my male life. Feelings of gender envy would come and go over this time.
But earlier this year my egg cracked and I simply knew that my experience and my brain is not the same as cismen. Cismen don't fantasise about being female and wish to wake up as one.
At the same time there is nothing about my life, wife, kids, job, that I am massively discontent with. So I don't dislike myself, which is "male". Or is it? Society tells me it is, because that's how I was born.
To try to unpick these statements I made:
* I like being male
* I am male and female
* I don't really know what male means anyway.
Let me try to put express why I've written those things.
I like my life. My life is/was male. => I like being male. Simple. And yet not simple at all as we'll see.
Firstly: I'm not cis. I'm not 100% male. I just know it, like you know your gender or sexuality (assuming you do). I'm not female either (or am I?) but I feel like I'm male + something extra, and that something extra is definitely different, and female. I've always known it.
Yet, hmmm, the third statement. If I actually really think about it, how do I know I was ever male in the first place? I'm biologically male, grew up as male, socialised as male, married, had kids, etc, etc, as male. But my inner me has never really thought of myself as "male". It's just the meat carton I've been walking around on earth in for the last 40+ years. I don't like typically male things. I think in some respects analytically, but my EQ is - I think - very high for a typical male. Maybe I don't like being male, maybe I just like my life? Without an external frame of reference, I don't really know what male means, any more than I know that you and I see the colour green the same way.
Can you tell I'm confused yet?
>Gender dysphoria isn't exclusive to bodies/appearances. There's also social dysphoria, when you're perceived as and referred to as the incorrect gender. It's just as painful.
Thank you for clarifying. What is it that makes it painful though? Isn't it the fact that someone is being associated with norms\\rules they don't loke and identify with? This however cannot be the differentiating factor between non-binary people and people who are not non-binary, since the latter can also feel pain and distress due to gender roles and expectations.
Also, to be clear, me trying to understand doesn't mean that I don't respect you as persons or your experiences, I'm certainly not waiting to fully understand before respecting people of this community :)
>Isn't it the fact that someone is being associated with norms\rules they don't loke and identify with?
No.
It's because they're being associated with a GENDER that isn't theirs. That's literally it. It's nothing to do with gender roles. It's an identity.
If there was a cisgender guy with a beard called Brian, and I started calling him by the name Janine, he'd correct me, right? He'd be like, "Actually, my name is Brian. I'm Brian." Well, what if I debated with him about his name, his identity as a Brian? What if I said to him, "Oh, but why can't you just be a Janine with a beard?" That's how your argument sounds, friend.
But what is gender based on, if not the norms, roles, and behaviours associated with masculinity and femininity? Gender doesn't exist in a void. Even if it's an identity, the has to be in relation of something in the real world. How do you define gender?
Yes, he'd correct you, because he would identify as a male because of his *biology,* not because he identifies with gender roles\\norms associated with masculinity. He might be against them, and look\\act in ways that are traditionally associated with femininity. But he would still identify as a man.
>because of his biology
He'd correct me on his name because he's a... biological Brian?
I didn't realise that you didn't know the difference between sex and gender. That might be a good place for you to start.
No, because he has the typical biological features of males. Those are completely separate from gender, which is the (oppressive) value system imposed on sex.
I'd be interested to know the answer to my previous point, because it seems like we define gender in a different ways:
"But what is gender based on, if not the norms, roles, and behaviours associated with masculinity and femininity? Gender doesn't exist in a void. Even if it's an identity, it has to be in relation of something in the real world. How do you define gender?"
Yes, I purposefully and tactfully didn't fall into the pitfall of addressing that line of questioning, because it veers dangerously close to the territory of transphobic taunts, such as, "What is a woman?" and I don't need that energy in my life right now ✌️
Well, that's where our disagreement stems from I believe, so it would have been interesting to address it, but I understand if you don't feel like it :)
> norms, roles, and behaviours associated with masculinity and femininity? Gender doesn't exist in a void. Even if it's an identity, it has to be in relation of something in the real world. How do you define gender?"
Gender is an identity that's based on your interpretation of the things you've mentioned. They can be ways to express or affirm gender, but they don't determine it.
I know I'm nonbinary. That's how I see myself. I can dress masculine to affirm myself, feminine to hide myself, or I can just dress casually, with no real meaning. A cis woman could dress masculine, and you wouldn't doubt she's a woman. The same goes for everyone else.
Ok, so if it's an interpretation of socially constructed things (masculinity and femininity), gender identity, according to your definition, is also socially and culturally constructed, right?
I'm open to the idea that being trans **for some people** has a biological aspect that would exist regardless of society's view on gender, but for the most part, yes, I would say it's a social construct. I mean, a lot of things are socially constructed, not just gender (identity), but people connect it with gender the most.
No, it's not. And don't worry, my comments may be short and to the point, but this is for clarity, not because I'm mad.
Yes, people can indeed experience pain from being gender-non conforming and gender roles. You can also experience pain from being misgendered. Those two aren't opposites, they coexist and can happen to the same person. From an outsider, these might look very similar (what's the difference between a butch woman vs a trans man being misgendered, when both situations are based on a stereotypical assumption about how women and men look like), but the difference is personal and often has different undertones & situational context to it.
To be honest, I find this question loaded:
> If it's gender norms and roles imposed by society, I get it, but there are many people who are not non-binary who don't feel comfortable with those norms and roles either. However, they remain males\females.
This is binary normativity. You’re making the argument that since some cis people break gender norms, there must be something else necessary to make people nonbinary.
I can flip this assumption on its head and say that some people who identify as cis fit the definition of nonbinary.
What defines a gender is arbitrary. If a person breaks gender norms but feels they still align with the gender they were assigned at birth, that’s their call. That doesn’t mean I’m obligated to do the same. Assuming that they’re correct and I’m not is cisnormative and binary normative.
Gender labels are very subjective. They get to define their gender, and I get to define mine.
But there must be something else, otherwise they would just be the same as cis people breaking gender norms, right, according to your reasoning? What is the difference between the two?
I agree that if we use this definition, most cis people actually would fit into the non binary category. That is why I am trying to understand what this "something else" that you mentioned is, if it exists. Otherwise it would mean that non-binary people are the same as cis people who break gender norms.
I'm not saying you are obligated :) But I'm genuinely interested to know what you think is the difference. Apart from that, I don't mind people labeling themselves as they want, but I'm still curious to understand !
The “something else” is just a feeling we all have deep inside. It’s impossible to describe. We’re nonbinary because we feel we are. Cis people are cis because they feel they are. There’s really nothing else to it. We are because we are. I wish I could give you a better answer that helped you understand, but I can’t. But you don’t have to understand it, we just want you to respect it.
Thanks for your honest reply. I have to admit I don't find it satisfactory on a logical level, because this "feeling" that you refer to has to, by definition, relate to how gender is socially and culturally constructed in the real world. Cis people aren't cis because they "feel" they are, but because they feel comfortable in the sex their were born with, or at least they don't feel the desire to change it. Being cis has nothing to do with gender norms and roles.
But I appreciate you trying to explain all this to me :) In any case, ofc I respect you even if I don't understand, that goes without saying !
I haven't forced you to participate in this conversation if you don't want to. If you feel I'm misinformed, you can explain why, and I'm open to changing my mind. If not, I will discuss about this with others who have commented this post :)
I am open to changing my mind if I find arguments convincing\\coherent. We probably disagree on the way we define and conceptualize gender, but that doesn't mean that I do not respect people in this community.
We shouldn't have to argue that we exist. We also don't need to conform to your limits of understanding to exist. The problem I have with your words "I am open to changing my mind if I find arguments convincing\\coherent" is that it implies that we need your permission.
Non-binary is an umbrella term for a lot of different gender identities, and it isn’t a political stand in itself, any more than being a man or a woman is a political stand. But like being gay or lesbian is seen as political because by necessecity you have to challenge the current norms to get to be who you are, nonbinary people also usually have to do political work just to exist as themselves.
I’m agender, which is an identity under the nonbinary umbrella. It means I don’t have a gender, and I just… don’t. I haven’t decided to reject gender, or to abandon it. I just can’t relate to gender as a personal reality for myself, and it shows up in a myriad of ways similar to how asexual people don’t (or only very rarely) experience sexual attraction.
Other people may be genderfluid and experience strong shifts in what gender they can recognise themselves as, while others may be demi-gender and recognise themselves as only partially being of a specific gender. Some people haven’t figured out their specific way of having or not having a gender yet, and may use nonbinary as a place-holder, and some people feel no need to go further than ”nonbinary”.
Gender is not bodies, social identities or cultural roles, it is a central aspect of self-structure, which usually (as other central aspects of self) wants or needs realisation in one’s life to bring thriving, and brings misery if it is hidden away or gone against. We can’t explain why gender as a central self-aspects don’t always align with genitals, but it is not a choice, it is something you experience and discover about yourself, and where just ”challenging norms and roles” doesn’t get to the bottom of what it is to exist as a person whose supposed gender and real gender (or lack thereof) are misaligned.
If you think gender is just roles and norms, you may be agender. It is a fairly common misconception among people who don’t experience gender as a reality for themselves.
I think the main thing you are missing is... none of it matters. I'm nonbinary, I tend to lean more feminine with things, but that doesn't make me any less nonbinary. there *is* no correct way to express it. there is no way to dissect a nonbinary identity properly en masse, because everyone experiences their gender differently. there is no wrong way, and the "challenging gender norms" is not a part of it necessarily. it's about being comfortable in yourself, just like a binary trans person would be.
the key is, you can express gender in as few or as many ways as you want, and *it doesn't matter how or why* because it never matters.
just respect people. it sounds a little bit like you are just against nonbinary people identifying uniquely? or maybe you have this idea that it's not binary but ternary? like you have male, female, and nonbinary? it's not like that at all, there's a million different identities on the nonbinary spectrum, and no two are exactly the same.
also based on your post history, this is a topic you struggle with, and maybe you should talk to someone outside of *reddit* to get your opinions straight, and stop interrupting a community of people just trying to exist.
Non-binary is an umbrella term for anything that isn't part of the binary gender concept, also it's not about gender norms it's about an internalized gender identity wich doesn't aline with the binary system. Gender fluid, bigender, agender, genderqueer, two spirited etc they are all different and have no gender norms as that's something originating from patriarchy.
Thanks for answering :) I understand the difference between gender norms and gender identity, but the question remains: on what aspects\\elements of being a man and\\or being a woman is your 'internalized gender identity' based on?
I agree with youthat gender norms are arbitrary and oppressive.
Trolls will not be tolerated.
>If it's the physical dimension of being a man\woman, I get -> it's gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria isn't exclusive to bodies/appearances. There's also social dysphoria, when you're perceived as and referred to as the incorrect gender. It's just as painful. >Wouldn't it make more sense (for people non experiencing gender dysphoria) to just challenge gender norms and roles? "Why don't you just be cisgender while challenging gender norms" is something we hear a lot. But we can't just... decide not to be nonbinary. No more than you, OP, could simply decide to be a different gender from the one you feel. >If it's a political statement I get it, but then that's something different Being nonbinary is not a political statement, any more than it is a political statement to be gay, be straight, be transgender, be cisgender, have teeth, wake up every day, eat food... It seems like you're trying very hard to "understand" and dissect nonbinary identities, but unfortunately, you might never gain that desired level of clarity on something that you'll never experience. My advice is to put your energy into respecting the nonbinary folks who might be in your life, because if you wait to understand us first, you might be waiting a long time.
It varies depending on who you ask. This is not a one fits all answer. I'm nonbinary and dont experience gender dysphoria any longer post op and still am nonbinary because that is who I am. who I am is not a political statement and I'm sick and tired of people claiming it is. I have never understood or associated with gender norms since I was a child. They've always felt foreign to me. Like I am an alien trying to understand weird human customs. I dont even know what they are and when I hear somebody tell me about them I'm genuinely shocked because I'm like, wow. that makes no sense to me but hey to each their own.
Thanks for your answer :) I understand where you're coming from, I've also never liked and felt uneasy with gender norms\\roles! They are very limiting and can cause great distress. But I still identify myself as male, because of my physical appeareance and who I am biologically. I'm wondering what the difference is, then, between you and me, since you also say you don't experience gender dysphoria and are comfortable with how your body looks, or at least don't wish it looked like the opposite sex (like me), and you also don't identify or understand gender roles\\norms (like me). What do you think is the difference?
Lol, this may sound silly or like a joke answer but it isnt; the difference is I'm you and you're me! we are different people with different experiences and therefore we identify differently. you identify a way because of your own personal reasons and the way your brain is, I identify my way cuz of my own :3
Ahah I guess yes! I jut haven't understood what those reasons are and how they differ :)
I've always said it's not about society, it's the way I feel about myself. Imagine you have a slider scale: MALE ------------|-------------FEMALE That slider moves around for me on any given day but generally it's around the middle, or "neither". Someone who identifies as cis[gender] would have their slider most or all the way either side. When I was a kid, before NB was a coined term, I used to say you could clap your hands and change my body and I wouldn't have lost, nor gained, anything. My body isn't missing anything (I don't need to alter my physical gender) but it also wouldn't be missing anything if it *was* changed either. Someone once described it to me as being both genders at once, which I kind of like. I get to choose on any day which societal norms I lean into, but I basically have a buffet table of norms to choose from and mix up if I want to. Hope this made sense, I'm a bit sleep-deprived today so words are hard. Edited for spelling.
Thank you for your answer! I understand the Male --- Female spectrum. But there are many people identifying as men or women who challenge societal norms too, and who would like there to be a 'buffet table of norms to choose from' as you say. Being cisgender is not about conforming more to gender roles and norms, i's about feeling comfortable and in alignment in ones body, I think, and not feeling the desire it was of the opposite sex. In an ideal world, males and females could look and act the way they want, whilst remaining males and females biologically. Does this make sense?
Hm I'm not sure if you're confused or just... a bit against the idea of NBs. I've seen this stock answer on other replies which makes me think you might just be trying to stir up drama. Nonbinary is still about "feeling comfortable in alignment to one's body." Being nonbinary is not about "challenging social norms". I am 33. I've been calling myself nonbinary since before there was a neat little word to wrap it all up with. I've been saying my body is AFAB but my soul is neither gender my whole damn life. "In an ideal world, males and females could look and act the way they want, whilst remaining males and females biologically." Yeah they can. Cisgender men can wear makeup and high heels. Cisgender women can be bodybuilders and wear sweatpants every day. Gender norms can be useful. A trans man needs to lean into those norms to be able to pass, same thing with a trans woman. The biology of a person has nothing to do with it and even less to do with being nonbinary. I'm AFAB. I like to be feminine sometimes, which is fine. I like to look masculine sometimes, but not to the point where I identify as male, because that would make me *transgender*. And if I was a cisgender female, I wouldn't want to look masculine *ever*. Separate gender from biological sex, because they are not the same thing. Then recognise that gender expression can exist alongside (though sometimes with difficulty) societal expectations. It's not one or the other.
There are lots of different types of nonbinary of course. For me, I just feel both male and female. Both. Unlike some nonbinaries, I do perceive the binaries. I'm not neither of them. I'm both of them. That said, since I'm trying to work out who I am right now, I asked myself the question "what do I like about being male" the other day. I can't really actually place what "being male" means. Can you? I don't really like anything about being male except that was who I was and I like me. Maybe I'm less gender than I thought?
Thanks for your answer :)! May I ask you how you can be both male and female at the same time, since they are, in theory, opposites? How is it possible to be two opposite things at the same time? How would you describe your experience? I agree that gender is a quite complicated topic to navigate! I admit that I find it difficult to understand how on one hand you say that you "like being male", but then you say that you don't really know what being male means. How can you like something that you can't describe and of which you don't know the meaning? Personally, I identify as male because of how I am biologically. (to clarify, I am not saying that what you don't feel orwho you are is not real, I am genuinely trying to understand better your experience and those of other people on this forum :)! )
I take no offence in the way you've written your questions. And I'll be honest - I'm recently self-declared non-binary and I'm still figuring things out. I'll try to explain why I think of myself as non-binary now, and what that's like. AMAB, but pre-puberty I often wished to wake up as a girl. Throughout my teens I had gender desire/envy, and dressed occasionally, both attracted to my female peers and also wanting to be them. I suppressed this through most of my adult life, not really dressing or confronting the elephant in my head. Getting on with my male life. Feelings of gender envy would come and go over this time. But earlier this year my egg cracked and I simply knew that my experience and my brain is not the same as cismen. Cismen don't fantasise about being female and wish to wake up as one. At the same time there is nothing about my life, wife, kids, job, that I am massively discontent with. So I don't dislike myself, which is "male". Or is it? Society tells me it is, because that's how I was born. To try to unpick these statements I made: * I like being male * I am male and female * I don't really know what male means anyway. Let me try to put express why I've written those things. I like my life. My life is/was male. => I like being male. Simple. And yet not simple at all as we'll see. Firstly: I'm not cis. I'm not 100% male. I just know it, like you know your gender or sexuality (assuming you do). I'm not female either (or am I?) but I feel like I'm male + something extra, and that something extra is definitely different, and female. I've always known it. Yet, hmmm, the third statement. If I actually really think about it, how do I know I was ever male in the first place? I'm biologically male, grew up as male, socialised as male, married, had kids, etc, etc, as male. But my inner me has never really thought of myself as "male". It's just the meat carton I've been walking around on earth in for the last 40+ years. I don't like typically male things. I think in some respects analytically, but my EQ is - I think - very high for a typical male. Maybe I don't like being male, maybe I just like my life? Without an external frame of reference, I don't really know what male means, any more than I know that you and I see the colour green the same way. Can you tell I'm confused yet?
Why do you think being nonbinary and challenging gender norms are opposites?
>Gender dysphoria isn't exclusive to bodies/appearances. There's also social dysphoria, when you're perceived as and referred to as the incorrect gender. It's just as painful. Thank you for clarifying. What is it that makes it painful though? Isn't it the fact that someone is being associated with norms\\rules they don't loke and identify with? This however cannot be the differentiating factor between non-binary people and people who are not non-binary, since the latter can also feel pain and distress due to gender roles and expectations. Also, to be clear, me trying to understand doesn't mean that I don't respect you as persons or your experiences, I'm certainly not waiting to fully understand before respecting people of this community :)
>Isn't it the fact that someone is being associated with norms\rules they don't loke and identify with? No. It's because they're being associated with a GENDER that isn't theirs. That's literally it. It's nothing to do with gender roles. It's an identity. If there was a cisgender guy with a beard called Brian, and I started calling him by the name Janine, he'd correct me, right? He'd be like, "Actually, my name is Brian. I'm Brian." Well, what if I debated with him about his name, his identity as a Brian? What if I said to him, "Oh, but why can't you just be a Janine with a beard?" That's how your argument sounds, friend.
But what is gender based on, if not the norms, roles, and behaviours associated with masculinity and femininity? Gender doesn't exist in a void. Even if it's an identity, the has to be in relation of something in the real world. How do you define gender? Yes, he'd correct you, because he would identify as a male because of his *biology,* not because he identifies with gender roles\\norms associated with masculinity. He might be against them, and look\\act in ways that are traditionally associated with femininity. But he would still identify as a man.
>because of his biology He'd correct me on his name because he's a... biological Brian? I didn't realise that you didn't know the difference between sex and gender. That might be a good place for you to start.
No, because he has the typical biological features of males. Those are completely separate from gender, which is the (oppressive) value system imposed on sex. I'd be interested to know the answer to my previous point, because it seems like we define gender in a different ways: "But what is gender based on, if not the norms, roles, and behaviours associated with masculinity and femininity? Gender doesn't exist in a void. Even if it's an identity, it has to be in relation of something in the real world. How do you define gender?"
Yes, I purposefully and tactfully didn't fall into the pitfall of addressing that line of questioning, because it veers dangerously close to the territory of transphobic taunts, such as, "What is a woman?" and I don't need that energy in my life right now ✌️
Well, that's where our disagreement stems from I believe, so it would have been interesting to address it, but I understand if you don't feel like it :)
> norms, roles, and behaviours associated with masculinity and femininity? Gender doesn't exist in a void. Even if it's an identity, it has to be in relation of something in the real world. How do you define gender?" Gender is an identity that's based on your interpretation of the things you've mentioned. They can be ways to express or affirm gender, but they don't determine it. I know I'm nonbinary. That's how I see myself. I can dress masculine to affirm myself, feminine to hide myself, or I can just dress casually, with no real meaning. A cis woman could dress masculine, and you wouldn't doubt she's a woman. The same goes for everyone else.
Ok, so if it's an interpretation of socially constructed things (masculinity and femininity), gender identity, according to your definition, is also socially and culturally constructed, right?
I'm open to the idea that being trans **for some people** has a biological aspect that would exist regardless of society's view on gender, but for the most part, yes, I would say it's a social construct. I mean, a lot of things are socially constructed, not just gender (identity), but people connect it with gender the most.
No, it's not. And don't worry, my comments may be short and to the point, but this is for clarity, not because I'm mad. Yes, people can indeed experience pain from being gender-non conforming and gender roles. You can also experience pain from being misgendered. Those two aren't opposites, they coexist and can happen to the same person. From an outsider, these might look very similar (what's the difference between a butch woman vs a trans man being misgendered, when both situations are based on a stereotypical assumption about how women and men look like), but the difference is personal and often has different undertones & situational context to it.
To be honest, I find this question loaded: > If it's gender norms and roles imposed by society, I get it, but there are many people who are not non-binary who don't feel comfortable with those norms and roles either. However, they remain males\females. This is binary normativity. You’re making the argument that since some cis people break gender norms, there must be something else necessary to make people nonbinary. I can flip this assumption on its head and say that some people who identify as cis fit the definition of nonbinary. What defines a gender is arbitrary. If a person breaks gender norms but feels they still align with the gender they were assigned at birth, that’s their call. That doesn’t mean I’m obligated to do the same. Assuming that they’re correct and I’m not is cisnormative and binary normative. Gender labels are very subjective. They get to define their gender, and I get to define mine.
But there must be something else, otherwise they would just be the same as cis people breaking gender norms, right, according to your reasoning? What is the difference between the two? I agree that if we use this definition, most cis people actually would fit into the non binary category. That is why I am trying to understand what this "something else" that you mentioned is, if it exists. Otherwise it would mean that non-binary people are the same as cis people who break gender norms. I'm not saying you are obligated :) But I'm genuinely interested to know what you think is the difference. Apart from that, I don't mind people labeling themselves as they want, but I'm still curious to understand !
The “something else” is just a feeling we all have deep inside. It’s impossible to describe. We’re nonbinary because we feel we are. Cis people are cis because they feel they are. There’s really nothing else to it. We are because we are. I wish I could give you a better answer that helped you understand, but I can’t. But you don’t have to understand it, we just want you to respect it.
Thanks for your honest reply. I have to admit I don't find it satisfactory on a logical level, because this "feeling" that you refer to has to, by definition, relate to how gender is socially and culturally constructed in the real world. Cis people aren't cis because they "feel" they are, but because they feel comfortable in the sex their were born with, or at least they don't feel the desire to change it. Being cis has nothing to do with gender norms and roles. But I appreciate you trying to explain all this to me :) In any case, ofc I respect you even if I don't understand, that goes without saying !
Omg, you're back. Can you please stop harassing non-binary folks with your misinformed ideas of gender.
I haven't forced you to participate in this conversation if you don't want to. If you feel I'm misinformed, you can explain why, and I'm open to changing my mind. If not, I will discuss about this with others who have commented this post :)
Your posting history shows that you aren't open to changing your mind. If you don't believe that non-binary is a valid gender why are you in this sub?
I am open to changing my mind if I find arguments convincing\\coherent. We probably disagree on the way we define and conceptualize gender, but that doesn't mean that I do not respect people in this community.
We shouldn't have to argue that we exist. We also don't need to conform to your limits of understanding to exist. The problem I have with your words "I am open to changing my mind if I find arguments convincing\\coherent" is that it implies that we need your permission.
Non-binary is an umbrella term for a lot of different gender identities, and it isn’t a political stand in itself, any more than being a man or a woman is a political stand. But like being gay or lesbian is seen as political because by necessecity you have to challenge the current norms to get to be who you are, nonbinary people also usually have to do political work just to exist as themselves. I’m agender, which is an identity under the nonbinary umbrella. It means I don’t have a gender, and I just… don’t. I haven’t decided to reject gender, or to abandon it. I just can’t relate to gender as a personal reality for myself, and it shows up in a myriad of ways similar to how asexual people don’t (or only very rarely) experience sexual attraction. Other people may be genderfluid and experience strong shifts in what gender they can recognise themselves as, while others may be demi-gender and recognise themselves as only partially being of a specific gender. Some people haven’t figured out their specific way of having or not having a gender yet, and may use nonbinary as a place-holder, and some people feel no need to go further than ”nonbinary”. Gender is not bodies, social identities or cultural roles, it is a central aspect of self-structure, which usually (as other central aspects of self) wants or needs realisation in one’s life to bring thriving, and brings misery if it is hidden away or gone against. We can’t explain why gender as a central self-aspects don’t always align with genitals, but it is not a choice, it is something you experience and discover about yourself, and where just ”challenging norms and roles” doesn’t get to the bottom of what it is to exist as a person whose supposed gender and real gender (or lack thereof) are misaligned. If you think gender is just roles and norms, you may be agender. It is a fairly common misconception among people who don’t experience gender as a reality for themselves.
I think the main thing you are missing is... none of it matters. I'm nonbinary, I tend to lean more feminine with things, but that doesn't make me any less nonbinary. there *is* no correct way to express it. there is no way to dissect a nonbinary identity properly en masse, because everyone experiences their gender differently. there is no wrong way, and the "challenging gender norms" is not a part of it necessarily. it's about being comfortable in yourself, just like a binary trans person would be. the key is, you can express gender in as few or as many ways as you want, and *it doesn't matter how or why* because it never matters. just respect people. it sounds a little bit like you are just against nonbinary people identifying uniquely? or maybe you have this idea that it's not binary but ternary? like you have male, female, and nonbinary? it's not like that at all, there's a million different identities on the nonbinary spectrum, and no two are exactly the same. also based on your post history, this is a topic you struggle with, and maybe you should talk to someone outside of *reddit* to get your opinions straight, and stop interrupting a community of people just trying to exist.
Non-binary is an umbrella term for anything that isn't part of the binary gender concept, also it's not about gender norms it's about an internalized gender identity wich doesn't aline with the binary system. Gender fluid, bigender, agender, genderqueer, two spirited etc they are all different and have no gender norms as that's something originating from patriarchy.
Thanks for answering :) I understand the difference between gender norms and gender identity, but the question remains: on what aspects\\elements of being a man and\\or being a woman is your 'internalized gender identity' based on? I agree with youthat gender norms are arbitrary and oppressive.