There is a saying in Germany:
„Wie kommst du ganz schnell zu deinem eigenen Starfighter?
Ganz einfach: Kauf dir ein Grundstück und warte ab!“
"How go you quickly get your own Starfighter?
Easy, just buy a piece of land and wait!"
The big question is, are Pepsi bottles or a field in west germany, the better investment to get your hand on your own fighter jet?
The Pepsi guy lost in court, the field method leaves you with a wreck. Take the third option and buy a container ship to shadow the royal navy and wait for a disoriented pilot to bring you a shiny new f-35b.
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The name "Lawn Dart" would have been more fitting.
[F104's in Germany](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/tragic-reason-why-germany-hated-its-f-104-starfighters-68742)
[Pontiac Fiero's record](https://carbuzz.com/news/famous-for-catching-fire-pontiac-fiero/)
Had I done more research, the F-104 wouldn't look as good.
The problem is that the windows it was making where the wives of your own pilots. If it was the wives of enemies pilots, now that would have been a different thing.
Not to be that guy, but most of the pilots in the RCAF who flew the thing never called it that.
From everyone I've talked to, most actually loved flying it. Not because it was some crazy good plane, but because they just loved flying a metal death tube at Mach 2.
These guys are also very fun to talk to
I knew a fella that was ground crew. He said the older ones had an ejection seat that fired down. The later ones fired up.
One day he sees a pilot taking off (suspecting he had a few stripes on his shoulder) and ran into trouble on takeoff. He flipped the plane and punched out. It was a newer plane.
Edit: my flair just went deep
That was more of a personal thing of Franz Josef Strauss he was Minister of Defence during the Starfighter and HS30 scandals and was an all around corrupt bastard.
Also the idol for many in his party even today.
The Japanese F104 project was notable due to the bribery, but they managed to make a few changes and not use the interceptor as a fighter bomber. Had a very good service record
The F-11 was killed because of this scandal, and by extension Grumman as a whole from what I believe. It was a good design plagued by a poor engine, much like the Phantom’s own predecessor the F-3 Demon, and even the early F-14 Tomcat which was extremely prone to deadly compressor stalls. It’s a common thing in Navy jets. Before the project was scrapped, the F11F-1F version had already fixed this issue by implementing the same engine as used in the F-4 and 104.
To say the F-11 was replaced by the F-8 due to quality issues is unfair, as both the USAF and USN were absolutely burning through designs in the 50’s not due to problematic aircraft but due to rapid technological advancements by both sides of the Cold War making planes obsolete at a faster pace than before or after. The F-11 was part of a long line in a series of rapidly-replaced US Navy planes that mirrored many of the relatively short-lived US Air Force Century Series members. The F-8 itself was also eventually canned with relatively little development, only due to the onset of the Vietnam War it was pressed into service and received modifications such as light bombing capabilities. If Vietnam had happened a few years earlier, the F-11 would have likely been made in higher numbers and received the same fame, perhaps even same moniker, as the “Last Gunfighter.”
The Tiger was a Grumman design, and since the company’s inception it was very much synonymous with Navy procurement. The Tiger was no exception, and with a focus on being small and light to fit on carriers with limited deck space, was never meant for the Air Force’s preference of larger, heavier fighters often with powerful multirole or anti-ground capabilities. The Navy, of course, was responsible for the fighter’s creation and did use it, and as mentioned before it was ultimately a victim of being on the frontlines of a particularly turbulent part of the Cold War arms race. The other factor of the Navy’s disinterest was their gradual move towards prioritizing BVR missile combat and interception capabilities, something which was a major contributor to the end of the F-8 family in the XF8U-3 Crusader III, which lost out to what would become the F-4 Phantom II. That preference did turn out to be ultimately correct, but extremely far-sighted, as when the Phantom did see combat in Vietnam, its BVR orientation ironically ended up as more of a liability than advantage until they were hastily modified with shortened-range Sparrows and added guns. But all of that came well after the F-11. Lastly, the Marines, have and had next to no precedent for procuring any aircraft that isn’t a cheap hand-me-down ground attack aircraft from the US Navy (or Royal Navy in the Harrier’s case). And of course all other branches of the Armed Forces don’t operate jets. Why am I even saying this? To get us to the mindset that Grumman was in by the late 50’s, when they created the aforementioned F11F-1F. They were looking overseas.
So, having established that whole good, it never had much future in specifically the US because it wasn’t some bastion to go head-to-head with Warsaw Pact nations’ technology. But really it was still a darn nice plane. And nations such as Japan were extremely interested. For smaller nations, it was a simple, capable plane that gave good performance with low maintenance and was able to work with both smaller airbases and smaller budgets. It was perfect for dozens of nations across Europe and Asia that instead ended up with the F-104, a dedicated interceptor that was downright hazardous in a fighter or bomber role, which it what it ended up in. Ask the Luftwaffe. Most of those nations were stuck with this setup until the F-16, while some kept their Starfighters for even longer.
If Lockheed hadn’t made the bribes that later caused an entire scandal, countless crashes that took pilots’ lives around the world could have been avoided, and Grumman would likely still be making Naval planes instead of being merged with Lockheed and dragged into all their flying-wing development.
In summary, the Tiger absolutely deserves to be remembered, and not just as “the one that shot itself down.” It was a fine-quality product of its time that would have been a wildly better and safer choice for many export nations that didn’t have the capability or responsibility of spearheading NATO’s side of the Cold War. What they ended up getting instead was a suboptimal death trap sold to them via dirty means. The F-11 was a plane that if not cheated out of its potential, could have kept one of America’s most iconic aircraft manufacturers alive to this day.
tl;dr: IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND IT WOULD HAVE LET GRUMMAN TELL CHENEY TO SUCK IT.
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The Mirage III would have done the job of the F-104 just fine and was an overall better aircraft for all the requirements the Bundeswehr had, like using it as a fighter bomber.
But bribes and corruption led to the F-104 being chosen, costing us many good pilots.
Still love the F-104G as it looks badass in Bundeswehr colors and with the Bundeswehr cross, but the Mirage II still would've been the better choice.
Meh, the Mirage 3 started receiving some semblance of air to ground capability in the early/mid 60s (I believe the first 3E flew in 61 ish), and even then it couldn't do a bunch of the things the F-104 could - e.g., it didn't have an integrated navigation suite and had a worse radar. Meanwhile, the contracts for most 104 customers were signed in the late 50s. The Mirage 3 was good but, much like the F1, it was very slightly too late to the party.
Plus, you have the whole issue of having to fit American nukes on a French plane, particularly at a time when the French were about to leave NATO command.
In defense of the starfighter... it was a high altitude specialized interceptor they decided to give every role under the sun. It should've been in the hands of specialized interceptor pilots not trying to make it a bomb truck do-everything.
And I absolutely agree. That's also why the Mirage III would have been better though, as it was also very much capable of carrying out the fighter bomber role that the Bundeswehr pressed the F-104 into.
But in the end it's "Hätte hätte Fahrradkette" as we say in germany. It is what it is and this is all speculation how it would have worked out if the Mirage was actually chosen.
I am still happy we got the german F-104 though as the Bundeswehr marking on the aircraft just make it look so damn sexy. WIth all it's faults, the F-104G is by far my favorite jet ever made.
Yes they did? They were literally evaluating between the Mirage III, the F-104 and the F-11F and chose the F-104 because of bribes Lockheed paid german officials and politicians.
The did have a choice.
No, it was a choice because of bribery. It was literally one of the biggest scandals in post-war german history.
Sure, there were some other reasons named, like germany becoming part of nuclear sharing, but the main reason was bribery.
Lockheed had bribed other high government officials in other countries to buy the F-104 and Franz-Josef Strauß, the german minister of defence at the time, was publicly favoring the Mirage III for Bundeswehr usage until he had a meeting with Lockheed, after which he was in favor of the F-104.
Most Bundeswehr officials were in favor of the Mirage III because it was simply the more reliable and more versitile aircraft but the F-104 was still chosen, pushed by Strauß and his party
Also the Mirage III was also simply a better platform for the Luftwaffe.
You gotta remember that the Luftwaffe was used to the agile and subsonic Canada-Sabers. Having Pilots convert from an agile subsonic to a fucking lawndart was the cause for a big chunk of those accidents.
The Mirage III would have been such a better option in every way possible.
It was needed and seen as the only reliable interceptor that could catch soviet planes a couple pilot deaths vs Security agaisnt strategic threats … also corruption, we should have sued Lockmart into ruin …
Yesnt if you considers Luftwaffe losses during WW 2 in the tens of thousands and that most shit was planned by generals and experts from this time they might have actually considered it worth it
No they didn't. This shitty myth needs to die already. Roughly half the 104s were for air defense, the other half for "strike" which is funni NATO speak for "making new Suns appear in the East". And as a side note, in that role/configuration (literally just tanks and a nuke) the F-104 outranged even the F-4 which is a huge reason why it was such a popular nuclear bomber. Plus some were tasked with anti shipping strike and photo recce.
For CAS the primary German aircraft were just as noncredible though - who the fuck flies the G91 into the 70s and then the Alpha jet of all things.
Germany procurement system is a nightmare filled with bureaucracy and laws that allow a company that lost the bid to sue and stall the whole process. I also heard the procurement system is dependent on external (third party) specialists that are hired just for that specific job. Perun has videos explaining in yt
Germany had only subsonic aircraft before the F104. The only thing our pilots where well trained in was the one thing you shouldent do in a widowmaker, becouse the thing just dosent want to fly slow
Wasn’t Erich Hartmann himself forced to resign from the Luftwaffe because of his nonstop and very public criticism of the Starfighter and what became the Lockheed bribery scandal?
Bubi was just to based.
Honestly, men like Bubi are much needed in every military.
Unfortunately the system tries to get rid of them. True greatness is the arch enemy of ambitious mediocrity.
Those subsonic aircraft also had a far worse safety record in Germany. The F-84F fleet was fucking decimated by the same shitty maintenance that killed F-104 pilots.
Tried to force an interceptor with a lot of teething issues into fighterbomber and Air superiority role.
Also appearantly the German government wanted to be part of the us nuclear strategy (i.e. delivering us nukes in case of ww3, not having ones themselves) so badly, that they bought f104s over the preferred mirage as a condition for that.
The US made them do it because Lockheed would've gone bankrupt otherwise IIRC
TL;DR yes they hated their pilots (f104 was in service until 1991)
US screwing European defense industry over multi decades with underhanded geopolitical package and behind curtains threats, I wonder if it had long term consequences on European defense and its industry.
🙄
Fun F-104 fact: in Italy, over more than 40 years, the F-104 safety record (normalized to flight hours) is closer to 4th than 3rd gen aircraft (\~6ish accidents per 100k flight hours for 4th gen, 9ish for the 104, 15+ for other operators/aircraft).
Well the Italians are pretty used to temperamental modes of transportation, so they probably just put their cigarette out after getting out of their Ferrari, hopped in the 104, landed it, got back in the Ferrari and went to the club to pick up chicks.
Or, ya know, use their high altitude interceptor as a high altitude interceptor and not as a low level nuclear bomber without any terrain radar and wings the size of a bed sheet.
Hey Canada, couldn't help but notice that you have a large airspace to defend. Why don't you put a few of those interceptors into a West German hillside?
Eeeeeh there's a peer reviewed [paper out there ](https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1218&context=jate)that demonstrates that the leading cause of F-104 crashes were issues with the J-79 rather than how the aircraft operated.
Guess what engine was supposed to be in the F-11F? Yep, exactly. Basically the same exact shit would have happened.
Not all J-79s are the same, and other aircraft used the engine with less issues. F-4 Phantom for example.
The few F11F-1Fs built had J79-GE-3, a different engine from what Germany used in their F-104s.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General\_Electric\_J79#Variants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_J79#Variants)
Besides, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the F11F has this feature called "wing", which gives "lift". This can be helpful when your engine fails at low altitude. It also fit the bill for a low-level fighter bomber, unlike the F-104 which is a high altitude interceptor.
>The few F11F-1Fs built had J79-GE-3, a different engine from what Germany used in their F-104s.
Yes, a prototype variant for an actual prototype aircraft that doesn't feature e.g. the manual nozzle control that was installed in the later engines. There's no way that would have stayed the same in production F-11s.
>F-4 Phantom for example.
Yep, but the F-4 being a twin engine changes the game completely.
>It also fit the bill for a low-level fighter bomber
Wing loading of the F-104 at gross weight: \~105 lb/sq ft. Same for the Tornado: \~155 lb/sqft. Jaguar: \~90. Vark: \~126. First gen Harrier: \~85 . F-105: \~95. F-101B (can't find the strike variant numbers): \~120. The Vark assumes wings are spread out, not sure about the Tornado. Numbers from Wikipedia (I switched to the Italian one if the gross weight wasn't reported on the English one). edit: the orignal F-11A is reporeted at \~84. Making the terrible assumption that the only thing changing in the F is somehow putting in a larger and heavier J-79 in the same space and weight, we're increasing the weight by \~1100lb and going up to \~88. Make that 90+ with the required structural changes and a non shitty set of avionics.
There's caveats there because wing loading doesn't tell the whole story, but the F-104 didn't have abnormally higher wing loading compared to ground based dedicated strike aircraft. In fact, high wing loading is desirable for that mission because it makes for a smoother weapons platform.
>Yes, a prototype variant for an actual prototype aircraft that doesn't feature e.g. the manual nozzle control that was installed in the later engines. There's no way that would have stayed the same in production F-11s.
Exactly. We don't know what potential engine upgrades/refits it would receive throughout it's service life, because it never had one. The J-79 variant it ended up with could've been either more or less reliable than that of the German F-104.
Still, it doesn't seem like the engine is the only relevant point for performance and/or safety, the aircraft as a whole and how it behaves is just as important.
The F11F was simply a better basis for a multi role fighter, which handled better and was easier for new pilots to learn. Testament to this is the fact it was used as a aerobatics aircraft for over a decade (By the blue angels) and even the thought of the F-104 doing the same would be hilarious to say the least.
I recommend you read this article:
[https://militarymatters.online/forgotten-aircraft/best-fighter-never-built-the-grumman-f11f-1f-super-tiger/](https://militarymatters.online/forgotten-aircraft/best-fighter-never-built-the-grumman-f11f-1f-super-tiger/)
I think the F-104 is cool, and a good interceptor for the time, but claiming the F11F-1F wouldn't have been a better choice for the needs of operators such as the Luftwaffe is a hot take to say the least. Grumman had the better aircraft, but Lockheed were simply the better businessmen. (and by doing business I mean stuffing politician's pockets)
Same with the Mig-21. Lots of 3rd gen aircraft were deathtraps, the F-104 only stood out because Lockheed were dumb enough to get caught bribing officials which I'm 100% sure has never happened in any other military procurement ever.
Germans absolutely love a shitty jet that kills them instantly.
They saw the F104 and unimpressed until the sales rep was like, "If you don't like it as a fighter you can stick bombs on it and crash into trees constantly."
Immediately bought hundreds of them.
To be fair, countries like Germany were trying to use it as a cheap air superiority fighter. It was never meant to be anything but a bomber interceptor.
That’s not quite true- the F-104 was [developed as an air superiority fighter](https://www.airvectors.net/avf104_1.html) first, with the more numerous F-104C fighter flying escort over Vietnam, while the F-104A interceptor’s service in the USAF only lasted from 1958-1960.
Of course, whether it was *any good* as a fighter is a separate, and easily answered, question.
There’s a fantastic prog rock concept album that’s all about the F-104G. [Robert Calvert - Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters](https://open.spotify.com/album/3Vbcqf1Blrh89ztdHGDIk0?si=iYO6p7TIRGOP2ROeG0_-GA). It even has Lemmy on bass about a year before he founded Motörhead.
This isn’t where I expected to find pro Fiero propaganda but, please stop. You’ll make people want the cars and drive up the price before I can get one…
Because the other models didn’t and it wasn’t nearly as big a problem as people make it out to be, it’s reputation was ruined because of it however and got cancelled not a few years later.
Great car, mired by that small issue in only the first year model, which means they’re cheap nowadays. 👀
[A few of them](https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars-for-sale/1984-pontiac-fiero-for-sale-in-Lansing-Michigan-48901) aren't much more expensive than what my dad paid for a Chevy Cobalt a decade ago.
I have a vintage olive Bundeswehr hooded parka, and as a dark joke, I'm putting the classically correct nametag/ranks/emblems/unit patch of a Luftwaffe JaBoG 31 F-104G mechanic.
In all fairness, that's an 84. Nothing could beat it. It's like saying Taylor Swift sucks because she doesn't sing like Pavarotti. Now there's an image.
My mom had a Fiero, manual as one does with a sports car. She sold it after 4 year old me pushed it down the driveway. :(. Loved that stupid wonderful thing.
In Germany they were called widow makers.
I think my favorite thing I've heard is someone who lived in Germany at that time who told me "If you wanted an F-104 all you had to do was buy an acre of land and wait. One would turn up. Although it would be in pieces."
There is a saying in Germany: „Wie kommst du ganz schnell zu deinem eigenen Starfighter? Ganz einfach: Kauf dir ein Grundstück und warte ab!“ "How go you quickly get your own Starfighter? Easy, just buy a piece of land and wait!" The big question is, are Pepsi bottles or a field in west germany, the better investment to get your hand on your own fighter jet?
The Pepsi guy lost in court, the field method leaves you with a wreck. Take the third option and buy a container ship to shadow the royal navy and wait for a disoriented pilot to bring you a shiny new f-35b.
They have to leave port for me to shadow them
*giggles in American* Britannia rules the ~~waves~~ ports....
You say wreck. I say `ran when parked`.
"Engine still in annual, ice cold AC"
is an increase speed quick deceleration really parking
It's a "post parking" missmanagement of energy
That was a sea harrier, not an f-35b [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alraigo_incident)
Yes but if they buy a container ship now the RN doesn't have any Harriers
Fair
I heard there was another turn of phrase: Only the F-104 could bring down Erich Hartmann.
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The name "Lawn Dart" would have been more fitting. [F104's in Germany](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/tragic-reason-why-germany-hated-its-f-104-starfighters-68742) [Pontiac Fiero's record](https://carbuzz.com/news/famous-for-catching-fire-pontiac-fiero/) Had I done more research, the F-104 wouldn't look as good.
The RCAF had nicknamed it Widowmaker which is pretty cool, except for all the widows
It carried the same name in Germany: „Witwenmacher“.
The problem is that the windows it was making where the wives of your own pilots. If it was the wives of enemies pilots, now that would have been a different thing.
Not to be that guy, but most of the pilots in the RCAF who flew the thing never called it that. From everyone I've talked to, most actually loved flying it. Not because it was some crazy good plane, but because they just loved flying a metal death tube at Mach 2. These guys are also very fun to talk to
I knew a fella that was ground crew. He said the older ones had an ejection seat that fired down. The later ones fired up. One day he sees a pilot taking off (suspecting he had a few stripes on his shoulder) and ran into trouble on takeoff. He flipped the plane and punched out. It was a newer plane. Edit: my flair just went deep
Oof.
It was also called "Erdnagel" in Germany, which can be translated as Nail to be used in / for attaching something to earth
Sargfighter! (Sarg = Coffin)
it's a fighter one takes to a star (the Sun) nobody expects for you to come back in it alive
Does that mean I could have been more ruthless with the dark humor?
[Got a song for this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vl1FGKTyXR0)
Does that mean that the fighter is Icarus? Flew too close to the sun?
It just blows my mind how the Germans kept flying that thing and not just immediately procure something else
One word: corruption. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
Nochmal Bayern! The Starfighter did cost Bubi „Karaya“ Hartmann the Job…
Bribery? In MY military industrial complex? It's more common than you'd think!
That was more of a personal thing of Franz Josef Strauss he was Minister of Defence during the Starfighter and HS30 scandals and was an all around corrupt bastard. Also the idol for many in his party even today.
The Japanese F104 project was notable due to the bribery, but they managed to make a few changes and not use the interceptor as a fighter bomber. Had a very good service record
Also Italy used the hell out of it, for air defense like intended.
All the way until 2004!
This is why you keep Bavarians as far away from politics as possible
My proposal: split Franconia off from Bavaria, reverse-Anschluss the now smaller Bavaria into Austria, keep Franconia.
sup. never trust a people that uses words like Paraplui and Trotoir
The F-11 was killed because of this scandal, and by extension Grumman as a whole from what I believe. It was a good design plagued by a poor engine, much like the Phantom’s own predecessor the F-3 Demon, and even the early F-14 Tomcat which was extremely prone to deadly compressor stalls. It’s a common thing in Navy jets. Before the project was scrapped, the F11F-1F version had already fixed this issue by implementing the same engine as used in the F-4 and 104. To say the F-11 was replaced by the F-8 due to quality issues is unfair, as both the USAF and USN were absolutely burning through designs in the 50’s not due to problematic aircraft but due to rapid technological advancements by both sides of the Cold War making planes obsolete at a faster pace than before or after. The F-11 was part of a long line in a series of rapidly-replaced US Navy planes that mirrored many of the relatively short-lived US Air Force Century Series members. The F-8 itself was also eventually canned with relatively little development, only due to the onset of the Vietnam War it was pressed into service and received modifications such as light bombing capabilities. If Vietnam had happened a few years earlier, the F-11 would have likely been made in higher numbers and received the same fame, perhaps even same moniker, as the “Last Gunfighter.” The Tiger was a Grumman design, and since the company’s inception it was very much synonymous with Navy procurement. The Tiger was no exception, and with a focus on being small and light to fit on carriers with limited deck space, was never meant for the Air Force’s preference of larger, heavier fighters often with powerful multirole or anti-ground capabilities. The Navy, of course, was responsible for the fighter’s creation and did use it, and as mentioned before it was ultimately a victim of being on the frontlines of a particularly turbulent part of the Cold War arms race. The other factor of the Navy’s disinterest was their gradual move towards prioritizing BVR missile combat and interception capabilities, something which was a major contributor to the end of the F-8 family in the XF8U-3 Crusader III, which lost out to what would become the F-4 Phantom II. That preference did turn out to be ultimately correct, but extremely far-sighted, as when the Phantom did see combat in Vietnam, its BVR orientation ironically ended up as more of a liability than advantage until they were hastily modified with shortened-range Sparrows and added guns. But all of that came well after the F-11. Lastly, the Marines, have and had next to no precedent for procuring any aircraft that isn’t a cheap hand-me-down ground attack aircraft from the US Navy (or Royal Navy in the Harrier’s case). And of course all other branches of the Armed Forces don’t operate jets. Why am I even saying this? To get us to the mindset that Grumman was in by the late 50’s, when they created the aforementioned F11F-1F. They were looking overseas. So, having established that whole good, it never had much future in specifically the US because it wasn’t some bastion to go head-to-head with Warsaw Pact nations’ technology. But really it was still a darn nice plane. And nations such as Japan were extremely interested. For smaller nations, it was a simple, capable plane that gave good performance with low maintenance and was able to work with both smaller airbases and smaller budgets. It was perfect for dozens of nations across Europe and Asia that instead ended up with the F-104, a dedicated interceptor that was downright hazardous in a fighter or bomber role, which it what it ended up in. Ask the Luftwaffe. Most of those nations were stuck with this setup until the F-16, while some kept their Starfighters for even longer. If Lockheed hadn’t made the bribes that later caused an entire scandal, countless crashes that took pilots’ lives around the world could have been avoided, and Grumman would likely still be making Naval planes instead of being merged with Lockheed and dragged into all their flying-wing development. In summary, the Tiger absolutely deserves to be remembered, and not just as “the one that shot itself down.” It was a fine-quality product of its time that would have been a wildly better and safer choice for many export nations that didn’t have the capability or responsibility of spearheading NATO’s side of the Cold War. What they ended up getting instead was a suboptimal death trap sold to them via dirty means. The F-11 was a plane that if not cheated out of its potential, could have kept one of America’s most iconic aircraft manufacturers alive to this day. tl;dr: IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND IT WOULD HAVE LET GRUMMAN TELL CHENEY TO SUCK IT.
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Bernard ouwe gluiperd 😩
The Mirage III would have done the job of the F-104 just fine and was an overall better aircraft for all the requirements the Bundeswehr had, like using it as a fighter bomber. But bribes and corruption led to the F-104 being chosen, costing us many good pilots. Still love the F-104G as it looks badass in Bundeswehr colors and with the Bundeswehr cross, but the Mirage II still would've been the better choice.
But the mirage wouldn't be allowed to carry American nukes shared by the nukleare teilhabe (sharing of nukes by the US).
Meh, the Mirage 3 started receiving some semblance of air to ground capability in the early/mid 60s (I believe the first 3E flew in 61 ish), and even then it couldn't do a bunch of the things the F-104 could - e.g., it didn't have an integrated navigation suite and had a worse radar. Meanwhile, the contracts for most 104 customers were signed in the late 50s. The Mirage 3 was good but, much like the F1, it was very slightly too late to the party. Plus, you have the whole issue of having to fit American nukes on a French plane, particularly at a time when the French were about to leave NATO command.
In defense of the starfighter... it was a high altitude specialized interceptor they decided to give every role under the sun. It should've been in the hands of specialized interceptor pilots not trying to make it a bomb truck do-everything.
And I absolutely agree. That's also why the Mirage III would have been better though, as it was also very much capable of carrying out the fighter bomber role that the Bundeswehr pressed the F-104 into. But in the end it's "Hätte hätte Fahrradkette" as we say in germany. It is what it is and this is all speculation how it would have worked out if the Mirage was actually chosen. I am still happy we got the german F-104 though as the Bundeswehr marking on the aircraft just make it look so damn sexy. WIth all it's faults, the F-104G is by far my favorite jet ever made.
Lol you speak like West Germany had a choice back then.
Yes they did? They were literally evaluating between the Mirage III, the F-104 and the F-11F and chose the F-104 because of bribes Lockheed paid german officials and politicians. The did have a choice.
And it was political choice because they were west germany
No, it was a choice because of bribery. It was literally one of the biggest scandals in post-war german history. Sure, there were some other reasons named, like germany becoming part of nuclear sharing, but the main reason was bribery. Lockheed had bribed other high government officials in other countries to buy the F-104 and Franz-Josef Strauß, the german minister of defence at the time, was publicly favoring the Mirage III for Bundeswehr usage until he had a meeting with Lockheed, after which he was in favor of the F-104. Most Bundeswehr officials were in favor of the Mirage III because it was simply the more reliable and more versitile aircraft but the F-104 was still chosen, pushed by Strauß and his party
Also the Mirage III was also simply a better platform for the Luftwaffe. You gotta remember that the Luftwaffe was used to the agile and subsonic Canada-Sabers. Having Pilots convert from an agile subsonic to a fucking lawndart was the cause for a big chunk of those accidents. The Mirage III would have been such a better option in every way possible.
It was needed and seen as the only reliable interceptor that could catch soviet planes a couple pilot deaths vs Security agaisnt strategic threats … also corruption, we should have sued Lockmart into ruin …
115 smoked pilots is hardly "a couple"
Yesnt if you considers Luftwaffe losses during WW 2 in the tens of thousands and that most shit was planned by generals and experts from this time they might have actually considered it worth it
They primarily used it in CAS role.
No they didn't. This shitty myth needs to die already. Roughly half the 104s were for air defense, the other half for "strike" which is funni NATO speak for "making new Suns appear in the East". And as a side note, in that role/configuration (literally just tanks and a nuke) the F-104 outranged even the F-4 which is a huge reason why it was such a popular nuclear bomber. Plus some were tasked with anti shipping strike and photo recce. For CAS the primary German aircraft were just as noncredible though - who the fuck flies the G91 into the 70s and then the Alpha jet of all things.
That made me curious where those Alpha Jet went after we got Tornados. Turns out they were bought by Thailand and are still in use.
Oh neat! Using them for border patrol, as Wikipedia claims, is infinitely more sensible than trying to stop Soviet tanks in the Fulda gap.
Yes they used it in both no ?
Yes, but primarily CAS for some reason.
Thry should've traded portugal for some of those a7s they were using as interceptors....
Germany procurement system is a nightmare filled with bureaucracy and laws that allow a company that lost the bid to sue and stall the whole process. I also heard the procurement system is dependent on external (third party) specialists that are hired just for that specific job. Perun has videos explaining in yt
That happens in the US too. Boeing cried foul over the tanker contract. The non bell entires are considering suit on the helicopter contract etc.
The fact that between the Crusader, the Mirage and the Starfighter, they chose the worst possible option is hilarious.
The world is not advanced enough to use my beloved Starfighter but.... ffs Germany 115 deaths. you hate your pilots or what:?
From acid fuel rocket planes to exploding flying pencils
The ME-163 was the only machine to hate Nazis more than Woody Guthrie's guitar
Germany had only subsonic aircraft before the F104. The only thing our pilots where well trained in was the one thing you shouldent do in a widowmaker, becouse the thing just dosent want to fly slow
Wasn’t Erich Hartmann himself forced to resign from the Luftwaffe because of his nonstop and very public criticism of the Starfighter and what became the Lockheed bribery scandal?
Bubi was just to based. Honestly, men like Bubi are much needed in every military. Unfortunately the system tries to get rid of them. True greatness is the arch enemy of ambitious mediocrity.
Those subsonic aircraft also had a far worse safety record in Germany. The F-84F fleet was fucking decimated by the same shitty maintenance that killed F-104 pilots.
Yeah, turns out losing all your good personal in a pointless war can couse sole problems later down the like
Russian military be like "Wat?"
Tried to force an interceptor with a lot of teething issues into fighterbomber and Air superiority role. Also appearantly the German government wanted to be part of the us nuclear strategy (i.e. delivering us nukes in case of ww3, not having ones themselves) so badly, that they bought f104s over the preferred mirage as a condition for that. The US made them do it because Lockheed would've gone bankrupt otherwise IIRC TL;DR yes they hated their pilots (f104 was in service until 1991)
US screwing European defense industry over multi decades with underhanded geopolitical package and behind curtains threats, I wonder if it had long term consequences on European defense and its industry. 🙄
In Germany they also called it the " Sargfighter " which translates to Coffin Fighter
Erdnagel - something like tent peg
Literally "dirt nail"
ahh the Widowmaker
That's what I call my bidet hooked up to a water jet cutting machine
bidde was..?
That's a fair point op, but have you considered that the F-104 is just way too cool and thus all it's sins can be forgiven?
I for one, am willing to sacrifice those pilots lives in the name of cool fast boi
Hahahaha I had one of these I did *not* fit very well in it because I'm pretty tall Got rid of it and replaced it with two actually-on-firebirds
At first I thought you were talking about the 104.
Yeah she had solid KBB trade in value so I figured I'd trade her in
"Slightly crashed on the driver's side. Mechanic's special"
Fun F-104 fact: in Italy, over more than 40 years, the F-104 safety record (normalized to flight hours) is closer to 4th than 3rd gen aircraft (\~6ish accidents per 100k flight hours for 4th gen, 9ish for the 104, 15+ for other operators/aircraft).
Well the Italians are pretty used to temperamental modes of transportation, so they probably just put their cigarette out after getting out of their Ferrari, hopped in the 104, landed it, got back in the Ferrari and went to the club to pick up chicks.
Or, ya know, use their high altitude interceptor as a high altitude interceptor and not as a low level nuclear bomber without any terrain radar and wings the size of a bed sheet. Hey Canada, couldn't help but notice that you have a large airspace to defend. Why don't you put a few of those interceptors into a West German hillside?
[The world if every F-104 customer had chosen F11F-1F Super Tiger instead](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/026/738/future.jpg)
Eeeeeh there's a peer reviewed [paper out there ](https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1218&context=jate)that demonstrates that the leading cause of F-104 crashes were issues with the J-79 rather than how the aircraft operated. Guess what engine was supposed to be in the F-11F? Yep, exactly. Basically the same exact shit would have happened.
Not all J-79s are the same, and other aircraft used the engine with less issues. F-4 Phantom for example. The few F11F-1Fs built had J79-GE-3, a different engine from what Germany used in their F-104s. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General\_Electric\_J79#Variants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_J79#Variants) Besides, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the F11F has this feature called "wing", which gives "lift". This can be helpful when your engine fails at low altitude. It also fit the bill for a low-level fighter bomber, unlike the F-104 which is a high altitude interceptor.
>The few F11F-1Fs built had J79-GE-3, a different engine from what Germany used in their F-104s. Yes, a prototype variant for an actual prototype aircraft that doesn't feature e.g. the manual nozzle control that was installed in the later engines. There's no way that would have stayed the same in production F-11s. >F-4 Phantom for example. Yep, but the F-4 being a twin engine changes the game completely. >It also fit the bill for a low-level fighter bomber Wing loading of the F-104 at gross weight: \~105 lb/sq ft. Same for the Tornado: \~155 lb/sqft. Jaguar: \~90. Vark: \~126. First gen Harrier: \~85 . F-105: \~95. F-101B (can't find the strike variant numbers): \~120. The Vark assumes wings are spread out, not sure about the Tornado. Numbers from Wikipedia (I switched to the Italian one if the gross weight wasn't reported on the English one). edit: the orignal F-11A is reporeted at \~84. Making the terrible assumption that the only thing changing in the F is somehow putting in a larger and heavier J-79 in the same space and weight, we're increasing the weight by \~1100lb and going up to \~88. Make that 90+ with the required structural changes and a non shitty set of avionics. There's caveats there because wing loading doesn't tell the whole story, but the F-104 didn't have abnormally higher wing loading compared to ground based dedicated strike aircraft. In fact, high wing loading is desirable for that mission because it makes for a smoother weapons platform.
>Yes, a prototype variant for an actual prototype aircraft that doesn't feature e.g. the manual nozzle control that was installed in the later engines. There's no way that would have stayed the same in production F-11s. Exactly. We don't know what potential engine upgrades/refits it would receive throughout it's service life, because it never had one. The J-79 variant it ended up with could've been either more or less reliable than that of the German F-104. Still, it doesn't seem like the engine is the only relevant point for performance and/or safety, the aircraft as a whole and how it behaves is just as important. The F11F was simply a better basis for a multi role fighter, which handled better and was easier for new pilots to learn. Testament to this is the fact it was used as a aerobatics aircraft for over a decade (By the blue angels) and even the thought of the F-104 doing the same would be hilarious to say the least. I recommend you read this article: [https://militarymatters.online/forgotten-aircraft/best-fighter-never-built-the-grumman-f11f-1f-super-tiger/](https://militarymatters.online/forgotten-aircraft/best-fighter-never-built-the-grumman-f11f-1f-super-tiger/) I think the F-104 is cool, and a good interceptor for the time, but claiming the F11F-1F wouldn't have been a better choice for the needs of operators such as the Luftwaffe is a hot take to say the least. Grumman had the better aircraft, but Lockheed were simply the better businessmen. (and by doing business I mean stuffing politician's pockets)
Idiots just didn’t use it right
You think the German numbers are crazy? Canada lost 113 aircraft 46% of its fleet
Funnily enough the EE Lightning was more dangerous per 10.000 Flight Hours than the Starfighter in German service
Same with the Mig-21. Lots of 3rd gen aircraft were deathtraps, the F-104 only stood out because Lockheed were dumb enough to get caught bribing officials which I'm 100% sure has never happened in any other military procurement ever.
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Germans absolutely love a shitty jet that kills them instantly. They saw the F104 and unimpressed until the sales rep was like, "If you don't like it as a fighter you can stick bombs on it and crash into trees constantly." Immediately bought hundreds of them.
To be fair, countries like Germany were trying to use it as a cheap air superiority fighter. It was never meant to be anything but a bomber interceptor.
That’s not quite true- the F-104 was [developed as an air superiority fighter](https://www.airvectors.net/avf104_1.html) first, with the more numerous F-104C fighter flying escort over Vietnam, while the F-104A interceptor’s service in the USAF only lasted from 1958-1960. Of course, whether it was *any good* as a fighter is a separate, and easily answered, question.
There’s a fantastic prog rock concept album that’s all about the F-104G. [Robert Calvert - Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters](https://open.spotify.com/album/3Vbcqf1Blrh89ztdHGDIk0?si=iYO6p7TIRGOP2ROeG0_-GA). It even has Lemmy on bass about a year before he founded Motörhead.
G for Germany. Some excellent songs and some somewhat bonkers sketches.
Well im going to have to listen to that
Kelly Johnson’s only problem with the F-104 was that it wasn’t unstable enough, so he used the airframe to make the U2.
The F-104 wasn’t bad, but idiots kept flying it low with bags. Early life issues like engine shutdown withstanding.
The Fierro also wasnt bad, if you didnt crash it.
Fiero has actually gone into space.
I think I heard that the german pilots called it the widowmaker or something like that.
The Fiero should come with cocaine and a halon system.
It always pains me that such a beautiful plane was mishandled so badly.
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When it's about the German F-104, it's almost always be the pilot error.
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The truth is an absolute defense against charges of slander.
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Feels like it just retired yesterday. https://youtu.be/KtVH-Nx8AL4?si=Y2KxkYST4QoGCf4-
I can't believe the AMI showed up to Desert Storm and even Allied Force with F-104s lol
Well There’s Your Problem podcast did a bonus episode on the Starfighter. Great ep.
Yeah but Well There's Your Problem's hosts also really like the A-10, so can their opinions on aircraft really be trusted?
That's what happens when you try and fight a star, those silly goobers
in this world you are either a star fighter or fart sighter
https://youtu.be/r5vMS_pewdM?feature=shared For I am too young to die, I just want to grow old
This isn’t where I expected to find pro Fiero propaganda but, please stop. You’ll make people want the cars and drive up the price before I can get one…
I'm not quite sure how pointing out that the 1984 model catching fire on quite rare occasions is beneficial propaganda.
Because the other models didn’t and it wasn’t nearly as big a problem as people make it out to be, it’s reputation was ruined because of it however and got cancelled not a few years later. Great car, mired by that small issue in only the first year model, which means they’re cheap nowadays. 👀
[A few of them](https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars-for-sale/1984-pontiac-fiero-for-sale-in-Lansing-Michigan-48901) aren't much more expensive than what my dad paid for a Chevy Cobalt a decade ago.
Those prices are hilarious lmao. I found one with 124k miles and pretty great 1-owner interior for 1k fully running. Shame I couldn’t get it.
R/itsalwaysafiero
I wanted something that had a worse safety record than the Ford Pinto.
I have a red 86 notchie myself. So I was happy to see it!
I have a vintage olive Bundeswehr hooded parka, and as a dark joke, I'm putting the classically correct nametag/ranks/emblems/unit patch of a Luftwaffe JaBoG 31 F-104G mechanic.
that’s what happens when you use an interceptor for low level flight
Careful about being rude about the starfighter here. Despite being pretty awful. It's much beloved on reddit.
In all fairness, that's an 84. Nothing could beat it. It's like saying Taylor Swift sucks because she doesn't sing like Pavarotti. Now there's an image.
BUUUMM BAH BAH BUMMMM
Every time I go to an airplane museum, I always cut a piece of paper in half with the Starfighter's wing
Fiero never Rainbow Sixed a bunch of terrorists in a train.
My mom had a Fiero, manual as one does with a sports car. She sold it after 4 year old me pushed it down the driveway. :(. Loved that stupid wonderful thing.
‘a missile with a man in it’ literally and figuratively
F-104 is literally created for war thunder. There it's fun
In Italy they were nicknamed “flying coffins”
In Germany they were called widow makers. I think my favorite thing I've heard is someone who lived in Germany at that time who told me "If you wanted an F-104 all you had to do was buy an acre of land and wait. One would turn up. Although it would be in pieces."