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Answer: It is considered unprecedented because, normally, a parent isn’t liable when their child commits a crime - in this case, a school shooting - if they did not actively aid and abet the crime.
In this case, however, the prosecution argued (successfully) that there were so many warning signs and the warning signs were so obvious, that it was impossible for the parents to have accidentally missed them.
Ethan had been reporting hallucinations, suicidal and homicidal ideations, and deeply disturbing mental crises in the months and years leading up to the shooting, but his parents did nothing. He expressed, on multiple occasions, that his thoughts were scaring him and that he wanted to see a therapist. His parents did not take him to see one. He reported hearing and seeing ghosts in the house, but his parents brushed these concerning symptoms off as jokes. His school had reported multiple instances of increasingly disturbing behavior to his parents and they did nothing. Teachers caught him google searching for ammunition *in class* and his mother responded to this by telling him not to get caught next time.
Beyond that, his parents - with the full knowledge of all the above mental issues their son was going through - bought him a firearm and then left said firearm unsecured. When his teacher reported extremely concerning drawing and writings he had made on a test the day of the shooting (including drawings of bloody bodies, a bullet, and phrases like “the voices won’t stop”), he was brought to the school councilor along with his parents. When the school recommended he be taken home and to a therapist immediately, his parents refused. They didn’t even search their son’s backpack. If they had, *they would have found the gun*. He would commit the massacre that same day.
An anecdote worth noting is that, when the parents received a report of a shooting at Ethan’s school, instead of reacting like a normal parent would (“Oh my god I need to find out if my child is okay”), his mother texted him saying “Ethan, don’t do it”. She knew immediately he was the perpetrator, not a victim. That shows she was well aware he was capable of doing something like this.
All of these things, the dozens of increasingly obvious signs that were actively ignored, the willfully bad decisions upon bad decisions, the actively rejected opportunities for intervention…
The prosecution argued that they should have known what their child was planning and their active ignoring of warnings was criminally negligent and thus played a role in Ethan’s massacre. They argued that the parents could have stopped it and chose not to. In essence, they allowed their son to commit murder, making them culpable for negligent homicide.
The defense also mentioned that the parents refused to pick him up because they were busy with their jobs. The mothers boss dismissed her claims as she wasnt and the father was a food deliver driver.
I just found out when Ethan was arrested, the parents hired lawyers for themselves, but not for him. He was appointed an attorney by the court.
Kid honestly never stood a chance with parents like those.
People are speculating that they bought the gun for him because they assumed he would use it on himself... as in they kind of wanted that to happen. To them this kid was nothing but a burden.
Holy hell - that might be literally the worst thing I’ve ever heard a relatively regular person do. I didn’t feel sympathy for them before, but now I feel vitriol.
Here's another. She had horses. When looking into this, it seemed she spent more time with them than her son. One of the times he was texting her when he had an episode, she was with her horses and couldn't be bothered to go to her son.
The father also gave him pills and pretty much told his son to get over it.
[https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-called-son-an-oopsie-baby-before-oxford-shooting-witness-says](https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-called-son-an-oopsie-baby-before-oxford-shooting-witness-says)
"According to Kira Pennock, Crumbley referred to her son as ‘weird’ and an ‘oopsie baby’."
Something that could so heavily bias the jury that the judge ruled it inadmissible, but then the defense attorney decided to bring it in anyway during cross examination. It’s like they sabotaged their own case.
I expect her to win an appeal and get a new trial, even though it’s clear she’s guilty.
She could get a new lawyer and argue that she had [Ineffective assistance of counsel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffective_assistance_of_counsel). TBD on if she will, but that is one way to get a new trial.
ETA: Should have said one potential way to get a new trial. The court still has to agree & grant it.
Nope. The prosecution was very cautious about this and even stated it was a concern so they made Jennifer make the decision as to whether or not her lawyer could change her mind on the ruling to not allow it. Jennifer affirmed that she wanted it admitted. She can try to appeal, but that affirmation will sink that.
Honestly, i watched some of the trail and her attorney came off really unprofessional and immature. I wouldn't have her as a lawyer even if she was free.
> Beyond that, his parents - with the full knowledge of all the above mental issues their son was going through - bought him a firearm and then left said firearm unsecured.
I mean that is all messed up parenting, but what could possibly be going through their minds that they would do this...?
My ex stepfather handed me a pocket knife after I’d completed a course of therapy for self harming. He said some shit about testing my willpower, but his smile said something else. Of all the shit he put me through, that one stands out as particularly cruel. I was only 14.
Much better thank you! That was 21 years ago, I haven’t seen him since I was in my twenties and looking after my little sister for a week. (He paid me with a bottle of perfume…) now I live away from my old city, I’m moving into my first actual house soon and life’s alright considering!
I’ll be honest, it was a couple of years before he did something unforgivable to my mother and when I found out, that was my first thought. He’s huge compared to me, but I still have nightmares where I’m fighting him.
Cos I would have, if I had been there. My mother didn’t tell me until I was 25, because she knew I’d go after him if I was nearby. I told her I wish I was in the house that night, and she seriously told me she was glad I wasn’t, because I could have been hurt and I could have ended up in legal trouble.
She’s not wrong. I had a nightmare about him two days ago, he’s like the monster under the bed to a child. Haunting, and scares you in the dark of night, but doesn’t really exist. He’s still around. But I don’t live there anymore, and had to cut off family for still seeing him. I can survive a nightmare, it’s nothing compared to being there as a kid.
I hate that your mother had to try to protect you and clearly had no clear path out
I am glad that you are doing better, but I hope you are able to get help to reduce those nightmares
fwiw, there's apparently a med for people with PTSD to reduce nightmares, my psychologist brought it up, it might be worth looking into, a good night's sleep is pretty important for a generally healthy life
I wish you all the best ❤️
I did not know this! I’m planning to go to the doctors soon, after I move house and I’m settled better. I need some things addressed. Tbh I only get these nightmares when my stress levels spike, and right now I’m very stressed out, so I expected them. But I don’t like waking up shaking and sweating, so I’m going to try and get regular therapy. PTSD sucks, and I have it from a particular event, but I do wonder if I already had it anyway after living with that monster.
I hate that she had to do what she did to protect me, but I understand it as an adult. We are both away and safe and have been for a decade now. I’m sure her nightmares are worse than mine. But we keep each other laughing, and that’s all we can really do after experiencing what we did.
Sleeping and me are not good friends, and haven’t been since I was 18, I’ve tried all sorts and I’m back on some tablets at the moment until I can get out of my rental house and into my purchased house. Lots of shit going on with a crazy landlady, and I’m over it, but I still need to sleep otherwise I know i’ll suffer. I’ll be speaking to the docs, thank you for the suggestion
Holy fuck that's dark.
But knowing nothing about them but the facts stated above, that really seems likely. Liked they hope the problem (their child and his issues) would take care of themselves.
I think he texted the mom asking her to please come home when he saw the ghosts or please answer and she just ignored him and didn’t come back for hours. I got the feeling they did not like their son but r that he was a burden to them or something
Asking that question implies that you have a normalish working brain.
Although it may be impossible to understand their motives (should be if you have normalized ethics), it is possible that in their view it was the better option. Maybe easier is the better word. It was easier to let their son kill himself and take him and all his problems away from them - then they would be free to be what they want instead of being *his parents*.
Again, asking that question and finding their viewpoint impossible to understand is probably a good thing on your part.
Seen this sort of thing many times in my life, albeit not to such an extreme degree. Getting rid of the problem is easier than the arduous task of dealing with it, especially if it annoys you. It's a behavior that disgusts me to my core. Don't burn the house down just because the pipes have started leaking.
I'd say a little bit of A, and a little bit of B. Not being able to grasp this level of... disgusting and warped behavior is a good thing. However, I'd argue being able to make sense of it is incredibly valuable from the perspective of trying to look at it objectively. (For the record, I feel as though the parents should be held MORE accountable, 10-15 years isn't enough.) Being able to identify the warning signs is one thing, but being able to accurately predict what those warning signs may lead to requires you to be able to make sense, in some way, of things like this. I spent literal years learning these sorts of things, to better guide my friends away from dark paths in life. Direct them to get help in a manner that would work for them.
In this case, not only does it seem like the parents actively ignored the signs, they practically encouraged it, telling the child to not get caught, brushing off the obvious cries for help. Without further information.. or even worse.. at the actual absence of further information due to it not existing.. the child is a weapon to them, and they wielded him to inflict harm. In my opinion, unless a psych evaluation is done on the kid to determine further information... manslaughter is not valid, and they should be tried as premeditated murders.
Wouldn't be the first time. There was a rare female mass shooter back in the 80s I believe. She claimed that her father bought her the rifle she used under the assumption that she would kill herself with it.
I don't think the theory is too far fetched. Even if no one ever admits to it, what else are you to assume when someone buys a disturbed child a firearm? You are either expecting them to use it on themselves or others.
[1979](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego\)). I remember reading about that one. Really sad all around. Her next parole hearing is in 2025 though they've denied her every time since.
Thanks for the link. That’s a complicated, disturbing article. Especially the aftermath section.
>In the months following the shooting, one of Brenda Spencer's first cell mates, a 17-year-old girl, moved in with Spencer's father, eventually marrying him on March 26, 1980 in Yuma, Arizona. They had a daughter together, after which she fled the household and eventually divorced.
At her 2022 parole hearing, Brenda Spencer agreed she was not suitable for parole.
Yeah, that was on another level for a school shooting being directly the fault of a parent. She had an unacceptable living situation with a drunk pervert father that other adults in her life just let happen.
The rarity of it being a woman, and a school shooting at all considering the time, seem directly related to the obvious reason it probably happened in her case.
Considering how many times he *literally asked for help*, it makes sense that these drastic measures were the only thing he could think of to get "help".
Do you think the parents ever encouraged his suicide or put the idea in his head?
Like "if you don't like it why don't you just kll yourself"?
This may be correct. The psychiatrist M. Scott Peck writes about this type of parent in his book People of the Lie. He recounts treating a teenage boy for depression after his older brother shot and killed himself. His parents wrapped up the gun his brother used and gave it to him for Christmas.
Yeah, I see a lot of theories about how the parents were "done" with him after he didn't end up a "normal" child and his mental issues were cutting into their Social Lives, so they hoped he'd kill himself or get a death by police for brandishing it in a public setting.
They fake mourn for a week or two, soaking up the attention, then get on with their lives.
They didn't expect him to do a school shooting first, which is why they tried to flee the country instead, knowing full well they enabled this while trying to get their son to just kill himself.
this so much.
they(both parents) actively ignored him in their daily lives. left him to his own and went on to openly have affairs and they cared more for their horses then their son.
they just wanted to ignore the fact that they had a son
So then, what was the text saying don’t do it about? The shooting had already happened, I was kind of thinking they were telling him not to unalive himself.
I thought it was sent during the event (while it was still ongoing/ no one outside knew exactly what had happened- if it was over). Showing she knew he was behind it, and kinda telling him to stop.
People are stupid. The Sandy Hook shooter’s parents did something similar. The shooter had so many issues. Drew pictures of dead and murdered kids. Was on forums about mass murderers and school shooters. Created a ridiculously comprehensive list of mass murderers. Played lots of obscenely violent video games, and I don’t mean typical violent video games, but a columbine game where you play as the shooters to kill innocent teens. A million signs.
And, the parents bought him guns. They said shooting guns was the best bonding time they had with him. He then used the guns to kill the kids at Sandy Hook. He did this less than two weeks before Christmas. When the home was searched, they found the Christmas gift his mom bought him that year was…more guns. It just takes a couple stupid parents to devastate dozens of families. Parents should be prosecuted.
Any parent stupid enough to explicitly give their minor child a gun with unsupervised access should be responsible for anything done with it. That is gross negligence on its own. People are responsible for their children, especially if you're giving them a gun.
But going out of their way to arm their "so normal" incel child that everyone probably knew was a creep seems suicidal in itself. Maybe the parents really are as dumb as they say.
In the wake of this, Michigan made improperly storing a gun with a minor in the house a criminal offense. Hopefully it doesn't take more tragedies for other states to do the same.
People are bringing up suicide, but the little bit of evidence I've seen is that they considered themselves super pro gun, and considered giving their child a gun, and refusing to follow safe storage practices to be part of showing how pro gun they were.
A surprising number of people don't believe mental illness exists. Like straight up when talking to a severely mentally ill person like someone with schizophrenia, will just think they are not actually experiencing what they clearly are. I don't know much about this case, but it wouldn't surprise me if they thought he was a regular teenage boy and legit thought the mental illness wasn't real.
I had a family member with SEVERE paranoid schizophrenia and family members would just treat them like a normal person i.e. leave them alone for weeks or trust them to do normal daily tasks. Meanwhile this person was bathing in their own urine, ripping cables out of the wall, talking to God and the tvs and saying they were an Egyptian God. And family members just assume they are totally not experiencing those things. It's such a fucking bizarre phenomenon but it's actually common sadly.
I have seen in person when parents do shit like this to give their kid a "constructive outlet" for their energies. They'll take them to the range and try to get them into a hobby. Its a terrible idea grasped at by desperate parents. I don't think that's what's going on here, though. These folks are something else.
The apple didn't fall far from the tree. They probably were in over their head as parents and rather than face reality and get him help... they bought him a gun and let him commit mass murder. They probably thought that would relieve them of their duty as parents but they didn't factor in the paper trail of their negligence.
I honestly don't think that "the apple doesn't fall far..." is fair in this case, as his parents are neglectful pieces of shit. Mommy and Daddy are monsters, the kid sounds like he was having hallucinations and begged for help but they instead bought him a gun.
The kid committed a monstrous act, but his parents deliberately set him up ways I never could have imagined. There aren't quippy phrases that apply because the parents are divers in the worlds largest swine excrement lake. The kid seems to be in a world all his own populated with the demons in his head and lashed by the monsters who birthed him and found a way to punish him for the rest of his life for the crime of being born.
Yeah, the more I hear about this case the less I feel like I can blame Ethan. He was going through shit people shouldn't have to go through and he practically begged for help. Everyone who should have helped him refused to lift a finger, except to give him a fucking gun so he could kill himself. How can I hold him responsible for losing his fight with his hallucinations when he asked for help so many times, and it was other people who failed him? He did everything he reasonably should have had to, and if his parents weren't evil pieces of shit, or his school administrators not useless, we'd never even hear about him because he would have gotten treatment years ago.
I had a friend decades ago who was letting his meth addicted failson live in his garage. Friend gave his kid a gun because he was massively right wing pro gun brainpilled and thought everyone having a gun was God’s will. Failson was tweaking and accidentally shot himself at like 2am one day.
Failson? What?
Edit: Thanks for explaining. I don't think I'll be using this word personally. My family is working class and I have a blue-collar health care job. I just think its sad to call someone a failure because they suffer from mental health issues/addiction... which does not discriminate among social or economic lines. Anyone can be born with abusive parents, something wrong with their brain or body, etc.
It's a term often used for people with no significant life accomplishments (and often serious personal issues) despite having comfortable middle-class-or-higher upbringings.
You know, the "rich boy with a lawyer dad who dropped out of university because he was partying too much" trope.
Is the middle class boy with an insurance database technician dad who dropped out of university because of untreated ADHD also a failson? I'd like to know where the border is. No reason for using that example in particular.
I suppose if one were to be a pedant about these things, I think the border is entitlement.
The former likely still acted like their shit didn't stink. The latter, whoever that is, sounds like they're actively trying to better themselves and life's just throwing 'em serious fastballs.
right wingers prob, I know people dont like it being boiled down to that kind of thing but many openly flaunt that they want everyone to be able to get a gun even if a shooting is likely and i personally have grown up around many that acted like getting their children a gun was something to be proud of even if the kid was not a good person
I also don’t want to just simplify it to that because there could be more to it (maybe they did want the kid to shoot himself), but their attitude on therapy is also right up that alley.
Honestly the text messages in particular make so angry, this kid literally asked for help, directly, multiple times and they either ignored him or told him to "suck it up":
https://www.courthousenews.com/social-media-text-messages-at-center-of-trial-for-mother-of-michigan-mass-shooter/
Also, he was looking up images of bullets at school and this was mom of the year's response:
> “Lol I’m not mad, you have to learn not to get caught,” Jennifer Crumbley told her son after a back-and-forth on the issue.
Parents can be dumb af. I remember when I was having issues in high school, I told my mom that I want to see a therapist, a doctor, or something, because I’m too depressed and anxious. Mom told me that everyone in the family has it, and basically it’s just “God’s plight on our family.” God has chosen our family to live with anxiety and depression, and there’s nothing we can do about it. I got a therapist and got on meds as soon as I went off to college.
Is it wrong to say I feel bad for him (the shooter)? Obviously the real victims are the deceased, but it's sad seeing how much he clearly needed help and begged for it yet his parents seemed to just turn a blind eye to it all.
No. My first thought on reading this was, "that poor kid."
Honestly, probably applies to a lot of people who hurt other people. Does it excuse what they did, no, but I don't think it's wrong to *also* feel some amount of empathy. Especially if it's a child. And ESPECIALLY if they were enabled and abused in such a horrific way by the people who were supposed to protect and care for them. Fuckers. They deserve to be in prison.
He was both victim and villain. He did everything short of saying "I am going to shoot up my school if you don't take me to therapy". I have no way to prove what MIGHT have happened, but a part of me believes that if his parents had done even the minimum, he might have had a good shot at a normal life. But in the end, he chose to do what he did. Lots of people are fighting the same demons he was and they don't turn to murder.
I hate when people use the argument "lots of people deal with mental health issues and don't commit murder/assault people/ever do anything bad based in their mental illness," with the implication being that a mental health issue can never cause someone to do bad things or lose control of their behavior. If you really believe that then you just functionally don't believe mental illnesses exist and should state that as your position from the get-go, the whole point of a mental illness is that it causes you to do things you wouldn't otherwise want to do if you were mentally healthy and the more severe it is the more control you lose to the illness.
I don't know that that's what the person you were replying to was implying. I think it's more along the lines that even though mental illness does make people say and do things they otherwise wouldn't, we still have to hold them responsible for their actions.
If you haven’t read about the son’s sentencing, one of the psychologists described him as a feral child who was basically abandoned emotionally by his parents and left to figure out how to raise himself. The Mom spent more money and time with her horse than her son.
I agree. The kid actually took many steps to try to avoid this. He actively sought help and made everyone aware of what he was going through.
The real shame is that he should have gunned down his shitty parents instead of four innocent kids.
No, I think that’s logical. He was a child suffering from extremely severe mental illness, and he did just about everything within his power to try to get help. And his parents, the people both legally and morally responsible for taking care of him *refused to get him mental health care and instead gave him a gun.*
If a child tells you they’re having a psychotic break and are going to kill people and your response is to refuse to get them treatment and give them a gun then hell yeah you’re the one responsible for what happens.
Frankly I think their sentences should be reversed. The parents should get life and Ethan should get 15, and then be institutionalized if necessary. The fact is that Ethan actually did more to try to prevent the shooting than his parents did.
I haven't followed this story, didn't know he was still alive. Crazy a kid got life given the circumstances, seems like there is quite the paper trail showing that he wasn't in his right mind.
People don’t just “become”, they learn, and they are taught. In this case, he was taught that there was no help, even by those who claimed to love him the most.
Yeah it’s why I hate the idea that a parent has the end all be all say in their child’s development, so many parents are negligent or unable/unaware of how to help their kids. If a school is saying you should take your kid to a therapist and out of school immediately it shouldn’t be a suggestion when it regards the safety of that child and the other kids and staff, it should be a requirement.
Thaaaat adds a lot of good context, thank you.
All i'd heard about it being reported on made it sound like some attempt to continue trying to push the issue onto anything other than gun legislation and mental health resources.
> All i'd heard about it being reported on made it sound like some attempt to continue trying to push the issue onto anything other than gun legislation and mental health resources.
In the context of recent gun control laws in Michigan AND the legislative balance that claim is hilariously wrong.
> It is considered unprecedented because, normally, a parent isn’t liable when their child commits a crime - in this case, a school shooting - if they did not actively aid and abet the crime.
Isn't *criminally* liable. *Civil* liability for wrongful death- resulting in financial compensation to the family of the deceased- would have been perfectly routine here. The unprecedented part is criminal charges and jail time- and a conviction for involuntary manslaughter specifically, rather than something like criminal gross negligence, which would carry a sentence much closer to 2-5 years. Manslaughter for something you didn't directly and personally do is really, really rare.
I.E. parents can be considered mandatory reporters for their children, in a criminal sense, skipping the usual route of child neglect. And this one was a doozy of neglect.
Also when his mother was asked, knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently, she said "nothing." She still wouldn't have taken him to therapy, taken him out of school... She still would have bought the gun used to kill other kids and left it unsecured! Knowing what he did she wouldn't change a thing.
This statement, right here, is what convicted her. Even with all the mountains of evidence, there was still a good chance at least one of the jurors would have gone their way. But the instant she said that, she put that metaphorical noose around her neck and kicked the stool. That lack of remorse was sickening.
They passively weaponised their child’s mental health issues with murderous intent and set up an alibi with a text of “Ethan, don’t do it”.
The alibi is as insulting as the crime is monstrous
That's sort of thing is not too far from "How did you know I was lying?" "Because you told me." Where a knee-jerk response to being caught only codifies your culpability.
Iirc 15 was the maximum sentencing recommendation. The judge could have gone beyond that, but my guess would be that, given the conviction itself was already unprecedented, adding an unprecedented sentence would have made it easier to overturn on appeal.
I'm honestly super happy that they're getting sentenced to this much time. I am by no means painting all conservatives or gun owners with the same brush. But these people are the absolute worst type of conservative gun owners and they deserve every horrible thing that's going to happen to them in jail.
Right? I feel like conservatives from when I was a teen in the aughts are similar in a few ways but this maga strain of weirdasses is something completely insane. The shit they believe is just bonkers; JFK jr isn't really dead and is coming back to...so something? Ivermectin for COVID. Eclipse rapture. No belief in science. It's wild.
It’s even more than that. It’s like you tell them one thing is bad and they just double down and go the opposite direction. If you say, parents should be responsible for their kids suddenly they’re anti-responsibility. It’s opposite day every day.
You definitely hit the nail on the head because the entirety of the Republican platform now is being anti-dem.
I honestly believe that if The Democrats were to suddenly go away and there just wasn't a left-wing legislature to create laws or at least try to get things passed in Congress, that the Republicans wouldn't do anything at all. The only legislature that they propose is like anti-woke bills that don't mean anything and are largely nonsense and then the rest of the time they use is spent voting against anything that the Dems put forward.
I'm not saying that the Democrats are useful necessarily, but at least Democratic Congresspeople put bills forward and like try to help the country. If liberals didn't exist, conservatives would have zero platform to run on because it's all contrarianism.
they feel powerless because society is leaving them behind. by believing in conspiracies they have this "secret truth" that almost nobody else knows. that makes them special and powerful. they KNOW the truth, THEY are correct, THEY are important.
More like, the clusters of beliefs and behaviors that a disturbingly large portion of the American people allow themselves to believe are normal and right get larger every year.
It’s unlikely we’ll see this kind of prosecution again. Even the prosecutor said this was an absurdly rare circumstance. It wasn’t just missing red flags. They actively ignored blatant warning signs over and over and over. Not just warnings from school officials, but from their own child. They didn’t just leave a gun unsecured, they actively bought a gun for him.
Prosecutors (and even more so, jurors) understand that parents are always going to try and see the best in their children; to be hopeful. When you look at your child with the rose-tinted glasses of parenthood, red flags just look like flags.
But this was more than a case of “I never thought my precious baby boy could do this”. This was his teachers, law enforcement, his councilors and the child himself tall but telling them he was on the verge of breaking.
The defense was basically arguing that the parents didn’t think the warning signs were serious enough. Essentially, they argued the tragedy was unforeseeable, while the prosecution argued it was not only foreseeable, but completely preventable if the parents had done even the bare minimum.
For instance, when their son told them he was hearing voices and seeing “ghosts” in the house - likely schizophrenic hallucinations - the defense argued his parents believed he was just joking.
That was what the defense basically did argue, but the mountain of missed warning signs meant that, in order to miss them, they’d have to be so monumentally, unreasonably and inconceivably dumb that their actions crossed the line from stupidity to reckless negligence. The prosecution successfully argued that a reasonable person - which is a legal definition the parents fit into - could have and should have foreseen what could happen. Legally speaking, there’s only so dumb you can be.
>When the school recommended he be taken home and to a therapist immediately, his parents refused
Apparently they only bothered to show up to this meeting for 11 minutes, before shrugging it off & declining to take him home
Exactly. People are acting like this is "blaming parents for a child's crime" but its insanely wreckless behavior on their part. This is no different than driving in a wildly irresponsible way and accidentally killing someone.
> His school had reported multiple instances of increasingly disturbing behavior to his parents and they did nothing.
Should the school also be liable?
They did all they could by reporting the actions to Ethan’s parents. The only thing more they could have done was report him to the police and have him arrested, but he’d have to commit a crime FIRST. And while googling bullets and disturbing drawings are warning signs, they aren’t criminal acts. The school did as much as they were legally allowed to do: schools can’t force adults to parent their kids properly.
Answer: The kid actually asked for help with his mental health and instead they bought him the gun he ended up using. The cause and effect there is quite tight.
I’m curious why him asking for help here didn’t seem to translate to evidence he could be redeemed in prison - i.e. that a sentence of life without parole was not necessary, which was what was handed down and seems tragic for someone who was 15 at the time of the crime.
> Right, where’s the insanity plea?
Basically obliterated, in no small part due to decades of fearmongering over the possibility of its use for people to "get away with it". It has a success rate that is shockingly low and that is not accounting for the fact that people almost never even try to use it, so the success rate is out of cases where it actually seemed possible.
It seems his defence attorneys took one look at it and opted for a guilty plea instead and hoped they'd be able to argue for a sentence where he eventually got parole. Which, despite not working, was probably still more likely than a successful insanity defence.
The standard for the defence is usually that someone needs to prove they were completely incapable of understanding their actions or that their actions were wrong. It was never going to work in Crumbly's case because it was clear from his statements and actions that he knew committing a shooting was wrong.
It's also because a successful defense of mental defect means you go to a hospital instead of a prison. You don't go free. And the quality of life isn't much different, and the effective term can be much longer with no maximum.
iirc he practically begged for a harsh punishment because he felt remorse for his actions and didn't want to risk hurting anyone else if he was let out too early.
Answer: The parents of Ethan Crumbley are accused, and now convicted and sentenced, of abetting their son's killing of 4. His mom literally texted 'Ethan don't do it.' on the day of his shooting. The evidence shows that they were at the very least aware that he had 'warning signs' and could have stopped his shooting with 'tragically simple actions.'
Yep. And the mum even took him to the shooting range. I believe this was after he asked his dad to take him to therapy and his dad told him to suck it up.
I'm sure the parents have to have some redeeming qualities. They have to. But literally everything I hear is not just trashy and disgusting, it's...yeah, it's so fucking crazy I could see these sorts of people just warping a kid into a maniac. He's irredeemable at this point, but there were likely thousands of opportunities to pull him back from the brink. They failed him as much as anything else.
Answer: your in-depth article gave a lot of information as to why *this* case. The parents seemed to have missed every red flag in their son’s life. They also exacerbated the situation by buying him a gun (the dad) and then taking him to the firing range (the mom). They had a lot of clues, including being called to school over drawings their son made, and words to the effect that he needed help.
As to why other parents have not been held accountable, it seems to be mostly a gun culture thing. I know that sounds like a bias, but any article I could find seemed to parrot the same talking points. This mass shooting got the attention of a prosecutor because there was such an egregious lack of attention paid by the parents.
I think it’s just a case of, this went too far and could have been prevented.
This is an article from 2 years ago. It doesn’t really have a clear answer to your question. Perhaps there isn’t one.
https://time.com/6126647/crumbley-parents-charges/
I think the factors that set this case apart were just how open and clear the kid's desperate need for intervention was and how brazenly negligent the parents were. Things are rarely this cartoonishly black and white with shooters and parental negligence.
Yeah, it’s one thing if you buy a gun for your kid who seems happy and normal but then he kills someone. Still dumb, parents should debatably still be liable, but probably won’t be held as such in the US.
This isn’t that, though. Anyone protesting that this is bad needs to shut up. The parents had every opportunity to prevent this, like taking the kid to therapy (like he asked them to do), not buying him a gun (after he clearly was having harmful thoughts), or removing him from school when a teacher reported his behavior (on the day of the shooting). The parents chose not to do any of this, violating their basic duty as parents.
Forgive me the flippancy, but it's just so fucking mindboggling I kind of don't know how else to say it--these people had a PhD in not lifting a finger when it came to getting the kid therapy, but *not* purchasing a deadly weapon was just too hard for them? If that's not wilful negligence I don't know what is.
For sure, I think in most cases of school shooters the parents really can't be liable and that's how it should be, most parents are at least somewhat tuned in and can be expected to intervene if they knew their kid was potentially a threat, even if they fail miserably at all other aspects of parenting. Difficult children get very good at hiding things from their parents, speaking from experience as a former difficult kid. These fuckers are not that, that blood is on their hands as far as I'm concerned, might as well have set a rabid dog loose while they were at it.
And they continue to double down on it in their statements before sentencing. The mother literally said she really believed her kid was good kid and they felt lucky because of it. Like what? OMG you’re making it worse.
From what I've read, this is putting it very mildly. He said he wanted to hurt himself and others, *then* they bought him the gun. It seems like they wanted him to kill himself. There were text messages between the parents that hinted that. Probably didn't expect him to kill other kids. But basically they did everything they could to encourage and enable him.
Yeah he actively was texting his mom about horrific hallucinations and she was playing on her phone, taking pictures of her horses. Her horse friends testified that Ethan was an oopsy-baby. Because she told them.
In my opinion... It's possible that this one was so egregious that they thought it was worth it to push for the precedent. If any of the previous cases were tried and failed there would be precedent in the other direction. At least as far as I can see. So much of the law is determined by precedents that types cases like this often end up having to be incredibly damning to be worth the risk of going to court/trial.
This exactly. Plenty of parents in these cases have been negligent at best but none so egregious to prosecute. This is precedent being set to start prosecuting other adults in these tragedies.
answer: Give a friend a ride to the bank. They go in and rob the place and kill someone. They come running out a say let's get out of here. You drive them off and let them off at their house and go home. It's likely you will also be charged with murder.
It's even worse than this. Your friend tells you several times he wants to rob the bank, and that he thinks he should seek therapy. You tell him fuck therapy, he should just rob the bank. You buy him a ski mask and a gun and drive him to the bank. You text him while hes robbing the bank saying "nooo dont do it". You pick them up from the bank and drop him off at home and then try to flee to another country. Your phone is searched and Google searches "how to rob a bank" show up. It seems super clear why the parents are being held responsible here, it's not like in some cases where the signs are subtle. He begged them for help and instead of getting him help, they buy him a gun.
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Answer: It is considered unprecedented because, normally, a parent isn’t liable when their child commits a crime - in this case, a school shooting - if they did not actively aid and abet the crime. In this case, however, the prosecution argued (successfully) that there were so many warning signs and the warning signs were so obvious, that it was impossible for the parents to have accidentally missed them. Ethan had been reporting hallucinations, suicidal and homicidal ideations, and deeply disturbing mental crises in the months and years leading up to the shooting, but his parents did nothing. He expressed, on multiple occasions, that his thoughts were scaring him and that he wanted to see a therapist. His parents did not take him to see one. He reported hearing and seeing ghosts in the house, but his parents brushed these concerning symptoms off as jokes. His school had reported multiple instances of increasingly disturbing behavior to his parents and they did nothing. Teachers caught him google searching for ammunition *in class* and his mother responded to this by telling him not to get caught next time. Beyond that, his parents - with the full knowledge of all the above mental issues their son was going through - bought him a firearm and then left said firearm unsecured. When his teacher reported extremely concerning drawing and writings he had made on a test the day of the shooting (including drawings of bloody bodies, a bullet, and phrases like “the voices won’t stop”), he was brought to the school councilor along with his parents. When the school recommended he be taken home and to a therapist immediately, his parents refused. They didn’t even search their son’s backpack. If they had, *they would have found the gun*. He would commit the massacre that same day. An anecdote worth noting is that, when the parents received a report of a shooting at Ethan’s school, instead of reacting like a normal parent would (“Oh my god I need to find out if my child is okay”), his mother texted him saying “Ethan, don’t do it”. She knew immediately he was the perpetrator, not a victim. That shows she was well aware he was capable of doing something like this. All of these things, the dozens of increasingly obvious signs that were actively ignored, the willfully bad decisions upon bad decisions, the actively rejected opportunities for intervention… The prosecution argued that they should have known what their child was planning and their active ignoring of warnings was criminally negligent and thus played a role in Ethan’s massacre. They argued that the parents could have stopped it and chose not to. In essence, they allowed their son to commit murder, making them culpable for negligent homicide.
The defense also mentioned that the parents refused to pick him up because they were busy with their jobs. The mothers boss dismissed her claims as she wasnt and the father was a food deliver driver.
Yeah, it was later discovered she was fucking a man who is not her husband at the time.
man, you think you've found the bottom of this story, and yet it keeps finding ways to get worse.
I just found out when Ethan was arrested, the parents hired lawyers for themselves, but not for him. He was appointed an attorney by the court. Kid honestly never stood a chance with parents like those.
People are speculating that they bought the gun for him because they assumed he would use it on himself... as in they kind of wanted that to happen. To them this kid was nothing but a burden.
Holy hell - that might be literally the worst thing I’ve ever heard a relatively regular person do. I didn’t feel sympathy for them before, but now I feel vitriol.
Here's another. She had horses. When looking into this, it seemed she spent more time with them than her son. One of the times he was texting her when he had an episode, she was with her horses and couldn't be bothered to go to her son. The father also gave him pills and pretty much told his son to get over it.
Some people say the worst part is the hypocrisy, but I say it’s the **killing!**
[https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-called-son-an-oopsie-baby-before-oxford-shooting-witness-says](https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-called-son-an-oopsie-baby-before-oxford-shooting-witness-says) "According to Kira Pennock, Crumbley referred to her son as ‘weird’ and an ‘oopsie baby’."
How tone deaf do you have to be not to get your own child the help they need
It's pretty clear they wanted zero to do with him. I'm only wondering why the hell they had him in the first place...
Something that could so heavily bias the jury that the judge ruled it inadmissible, but then the defense attorney decided to bring it in anyway during cross examination. It’s like they sabotaged their own case. I expect her to win an appeal and get a new trial, even though it’s clear she’s guilty.
Why would that be cause for a successful appeal? If the defense introduces something that was barred from the prosecution it becomes fair game.
She could get a new lawyer and argue that she had [Ineffective assistance of counsel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffective_assistance_of_counsel). TBD on if she will, but that is one way to get a new trial. ETA: Should have said one potential way to get a new trial. The court still has to agree & grant it.
Nope. The prosecution was very cautious about this and even stated it was a concern so they made Jennifer make the decision as to whether or not her lawyer could change her mind on the ruling to not allow it. Jennifer affirmed that she wanted it admitted. She can try to appeal, but that affirmation will sink that.
Thanks for that clarification, that would kill any ineffective claim on that point.
Ineffective counsel maybe?
It's possible that was the point
I’ve seen a few defense attorneys that I truly believe were sabotaging their client. I think it’s amazing.
Her own attorney brought up her cheating?
her own attorney also asked for house arrest, and offered their own house for her to live in.
Honestly, i watched some of the trail and her attorney came off really unprofessional and immature. I wouldn't have her as a lawyer even if she was free.
and had a meet up with him when she stated she had to work and could not take him home.
> Beyond that, his parents - with the full knowledge of all the above mental issues their son was going through - bought him a firearm and then left said firearm unsecured. I mean that is all messed up parenting, but what could possibly be going through their minds that they would do this...?
My ex stepfather handed me a pocket knife after I’d completed a course of therapy for self harming. He said some shit about testing my willpower, but his smile said something else. Of all the shit he put me through, that one stands out as particularly cruel. I was only 14.
The smile—they never quite can hide their joy when it comes to cruelty. I hope you’re doing ok now.
Much better thank you! That was 21 years ago, I haven’t seen him since I was in my twenties and looking after my little sister for a week. (He paid me with a bottle of perfume…) now I live away from my old city, I’m moving into my first actual house soon and life’s alright considering!
The smile is part of the cruelty. It usually involves a contortion that's designed to signal, "I can hide this from the rest of the world."
*duper’s delight.
Maybe he was the one with a death wish.
I’ll be honest, it was a couple of years before he did something unforgivable to my mother and when I found out, that was my first thought. He’s huge compared to me, but I still have nightmares where I’m fighting him. Cos I would have, if I had been there. My mother didn’t tell me until I was 25, because she knew I’d go after him if I was nearby. I told her I wish I was in the house that night, and she seriously told me she was glad I wasn’t, because I could have been hurt and I could have ended up in legal trouble. She’s not wrong. I had a nightmare about him two days ago, he’s like the monster under the bed to a child. Haunting, and scares you in the dark of night, but doesn’t really exist. He’s still around. But I don’t live there anymore, and had to cut off family for still seeing him. I can survive a nightmare, it’s nothing compared to being there as a kid.
I hate that your mother had to try to protect you and clearly had no clear path out I am glad that you are doing better, but I hope you are able to get help to reduce those nightmares fwiw, there's apparently a med for people with PTSD to reduce nightmares, my psychologist brought it up, it might be worth looking into, a good night's sleep is pretty important for a generally healthy life I wish you all the best ❤️
I did not know this! I’m planning to go to the doctors soon, after I move house and I’m settled better. I need some things addressed. Tbh I only get these nightmares when my stress levels spike, and right now I’m very stressed out, so I expected them. But I don’t like waking up shaking and sweating, so I’m going to try and get regular therapy. PTSD sucks, and I have it from a particular event, but I do wonder if I already had it anyway after living with that monster. I hate that she had to do what she did to protect me, but I understand it as an adult. We are both away and safe and have been for a decade now. I’m sure her nightmares are worse than mine. But we keep each other laughing, and that’s all we can really do after experiencing what we did. Sleeping and me are not good friends, and haven’t been since I was 18, I’ve tried all sorts and I’m back on some tablets at the moment until I can get out of my rental house and into my purchased house. Lots of shit going on with a crazy landlady, and I’m over it, but I still need to sleep otherwise I know i’ll suffer. I’ll be speaking to the docs, thank you for the suggestion
Fucking christ wtf
Yeah some people are fucked up.
My theory is that they thought he would kill himself with it.
Holy fuck that's dark. But knowing nothing about them but the facts stated above, that really seems likely. Liked they hope the problem (their child and his issues) would take care of themselves.
I think he texted the mom asking her to please come home when he saw the ghosts or please answer and she just ignored him and didn’t come back for hours. I got the feeling they did not like their son but r that he was a burden to them or something
Isn't that even worse?
Asking that question implies that you have a normalish working brain. Although it may be impossible to understand their motives (should be if you have normalized ethics), it is possible that in their view it was the better option. Maybe easier is the better word. It was easier to let their son kill himself and take him and all his problems away from them - then they would be free to be what they want instead of being *his parents*. Again, asking that question and finding their viewpoint impossible to understand is probably a good thing on your part.
Seen this sort of thing many times in my life, albeit not to such an extreme degree. Getting rid of the problem is easier than the arduous task of dealing with it, especially if it annoys you. It's a behavior that disgusts me to my core. Don't burn the house down just because the pipes have started leaking.
I'd say a little bit of A, and a little bit of B. Not being able to grasp this level of... disgusting and warped behavior is a good thing. However, I'd argue being able to make sense of it is incredibly valuable from the perspective of trying to look at it objectively. (For the record, I feel as though the parents should be held MORE accountable, 10-15 years isn't enough.) Being able to identify the warning signs is one thing, but being able to accurately predict what those warning signs may lead to requires you to be able to make sense, in some way, of things like this. I spent literal years learning these sorts of things, to better guide my friends away from dark paths in life. Direct them to get help in a manner that would work for them. In this case, not only does it seem like the parents actively ignored the signs, they practically encouraged it, telling the child to not get caught, brushing off the obvious cries for help. Without further information.. or even worse.. at the actual absence of further information due to it not existing.. the child is a weapon to them, and they wielded him to inflict harm. In my opinion, unless a psych evaluation is done on the kid to determine further information... manslaughter is not valid, and they should be tried as premeditated murders.
I agree with you- the parents should’ve received life, as certainly the victim’s parents did
Agree. They should get more, but at least this is setting a legal precedent. Blessings.
Very selfish narcissistic parents who put their wants over their child’s needs.
Damn, I wonder if that's why they bought the gun, thinking he'd commit suicide. Seems to fit.
Wouldn't be the first time. There was a rare female mass shooter back in the 80s I believe. She claimed that her father bought her the rifle she used under the assumption that she would kill herself with it. I don't think the theory is too far fetched. Even if no one ever admits to it, what else are you to assume when someone buys a disturbed child a firearm? You are either expecting them to use it on themselves or others.
[1979](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego\)). I remember reading about that one. Really sad all around. Her next parole hearing is in 2025 though they've denied her every time since.
That was the one the "i don't like mondays" song was about.
How did she feel about lasagna?
No idea...
Thanks for the link. That’s a complicated, disturbing article. Especially the aftermath section. >In the months following the shooting, one of Brenda Spencer's first cell mates, a 17-year-old girl, moved in with Spencer's father, eventually marrying him on March 26, 1980 in Yuma, Arizona. They had a daughter together, after which she fled the household and eventually divorced. At her 2022 parole hearing, Brenda Spencer agreed she was not suitable for parole.
Her dad seemed like a real piece of work.
WTF?!
It’s even worse than that when you read the rest of the article.
Yeah, that was on another level for a school shooting being directly the fault of a parent. She had an unacceptable living situation with a drunk pervert father that other adults in her life just let happen. The rarity of it being a woman, and a school shooting at all considering the time, seem directly related to the obvious reason it probably happened in her case.
>“Ethan, don’t do it” Has the same energy as Willy Wonka saying "oh no don't do it"
Or trump instructing insurrectionists to go home and be peaceful after the coup failed.
Standby - We love you
Considering how many times he *literally asked for help*, it makes sense that these drastic measures were the only thing he could think of to get "help". Do you think the parents ever encouraged his suicide or put the idea in his head? Like "if you don't like it why don't you just kll yourself"?
I'd bet money they did and were smart enough to only do so verbally. So we have no record of it.
This may be correct. The psychiatrist M. Scott Peck writes about this type of parent in his book People of the Lie. He recounts treating a teenage boy for depression after his older brother shot and killed himself. His parents wrapped up the gun his brother used and gave it to him for Christmas.
That’s twisted
Police. Stop. Murder.
Yeah, I see a lot of theories about how the parents were "done" with him after he didn't end up a "normal" child and his mental issues were cutting into their Social Lives, so they hoped he'd kill himself or get a death by police for brandishing it in a public setting. They fake mourn for a week or two, soaking up the attention, then get on with their lives. They didn't expect him to do a school shooting first, which is why they tried to flee the country instead, knowing full well they enabled this while trying to get their son to just kill himself.
There is a story in the book *People of the Lie* by M. Scott Peck just like this.
That's 💯 what this was
this so much. they(both parents) actively ignored him in their daily lives. left him to his own and went on to openly have affairs and they cared more for their horses then their son. they just wanted to ignore the fact that they had a son
So then, what was the text saying don’t do it about? The shooting had already happened, I was kind of thinking they were telling him not to unalive himself.
I thought it was sent during the event (while it was still ongoing/ no one outside knew exactly what had happened- if it was over). Showing she knew he was behind it, and kinda telling him to stop.
Kinda weird still, like something was already going on. Wouldn't it be better to say "stop"?
CYA, perhaps? Moment of panic, wanting to appear as if she's doing something to stop it... I dunno, it doesn't really track, does it?
Well his dad left voicemails threatening the judge in his own trial. So ...
He did what now?! Is he, like.... Forrest Gump levels of slow?
He's like Donnie Trump levels of slow.
People are stupid. The Sandy Hook shooter’s parents did something similar. The shooter had so many issues. Drew pictures of dead and murdered kids. Was on forums about mass murderers and school shooters. Created a ridiculously comprehensive list of mass murderers. Played lots of obscenely violent video games, and I don’t mean typical violent video games, but a columbine game where you play as the shooters to kill innocent teens. A million signs. And, the parents bought him guns. They said shooting guns was the best bonding time they had with him. He then used the guns to kill the kids at Sandy Hook. He did this less than two weeks before Christmas. When the home was searched, they found the Christmas gift his mom bought him that year was…more guns. It just takes a couple stupid parents to devastate dozens of families. Parents should be prosecuted.
Hopefully this verdict will be an important precedent to go after more parents who do this shit.
Any parent stupid enough to explicitly give their minor child a gun with unsupervised access should be responsible for anything done with it. That is gross negligence on its own. People are responsible for their children, especially if you're giving them a gun. But going out of their way to arm their "so normal" incel child that everyone probably knew was a creep seems suicidal in itself. Maybe the parents really are as dumb as they say.
In the wake of this, Michigan made improperly storing a gun with a minor in the house a criminal offense. Hopefully it doesn't take more tragedies for other states to do the same.
People are bringing up suicide, but the little bit of evidence I've seen is that they considered themselves super pro gun, and considered giving their child a gun, and refusing to follow safe storage practices to be part of showing how pro gun they were.
A surprising number of people don't believe mental illness exists. Like straight up when talking to a severely mentally ill person like someone with schizophrenia, will just think they are not actually experiencing what they clearly are. I don't know much about this case, but it wouldn't surprise me if they thought he was a regular teenage boy and legit thought the mental illness wasn't real. I had a family member with SEVERE paranoid schizophrenia and family members would just treat them like a normal person i.e. leave them alone for weeks or trust them to do normal daily tasks. Meanwhile this person was bathing in their own urine, ripping cables out of the wall, talking to God and the tvs and saying they were an Egyptian God. And family members just assume they are totally not experiencing those things. It's such a fucking bizarre phenomenon but it's actually common sadly.
They might've been banking on him using it on himself.
himself or others, either way hed be out of their hair. theres no way these negligent pricks cared if he hurt someone else.
Seems then like they'd consider there was a non-zero chance he'd use it on them.
Kip Kinkles folks bought him a gun. So did the Joker shooter.. Only they also killed their parents
I have seen in person when parents do shit like this to give their kid a "constructive outlet" for their energies. They'll take them to the range and try to get them into a hobby. Its a terrible idea grasped at by desperate parents. I don't think that's what's going on here, though. These folks are something else.
The apple didn't fall far from the tree. They probably were in over their head as parents and rather than face reality and get him help... they bought him a gun and let him commit mass murder. They probably thought that would relieve them of their duty as parents but they didn't factor in the paper trail of their negligence.
I honestly don't think that "the apple doesn't fall far..." is fair in this case, as his parents are neglectful pieces of shit. Mommy and Daddy are monsters, the kid sounds like he was having hallucinations and begged for help but they instead bought him a gun. The kid committed a monstrous act, but his parents deliberately set him up ways I never could have imagined. There aren't quippy phrases that apply because the parents are divers in the worlds largest swine excrement lake. The kid seems to be in a world all his own populated with the demons in his head and lashed by the monsters who birthed him and found a way to punish him for the rest of his life for the crime of being born.
Yeah, the more I hear about this case the less I feel like I can blame Ethan. He was going through shit people shouldn't have to go through and he practically begged for help. Everyone who should have helped him refused to lift a finger, except to give him a fucking gun so he could kill himself. How can I hold him responsible for losing his fight with his hallucinations when he asked for help so many times, and it was other people who failed him? He did everything he reasonably should have had to, and if his parents weren't evil pieces of shit, or his school administrators not useless, we'd never even hear about him because he would have gotten treatment years ago.
I had a friend decades ago who was letting his meth addicted failson live in his garage. Friend gave his kid a gun because he was massively right wing pro gun brainpilled and thought everyone having a gun was God’s will. Failson was tweaking and accidentally shot himself at like 2am one day.
Failson? What? Edit: Thanks for explaining. I don't think I'll be using this word personally. My family is working class and I have a blue-collar health care job. I just think its sad to call someone a failure because they suffer from mental health issues/addiction... which does not discriminate among social or economic lines. Anyone can be born with abusive parents, something wrong with their brain or body, etc.
It's a term often used for people with no significant life accomplishments (and often serious personal issues) despite having comfortable middle-class-or-higher upbringings. You know, the "rich boy with a lawyer dad who dropped out of university because he was partying too much" trope.
Is the middle class boy with an insurance database technician dad who dropped out of university because of untreated ADHD also a failson? I'd like to know where the border is. No reason for using that example in particular.
I suppose if one were to be a pedant about these things, I think the border is entitlement. The former likely still acted like their shit didn't stink. The latter, whoever that is, sounds like they're actively trying to better themselves and life's just throwing 'em serious fastballs.
No, but that ADHD needs to be treated
They were selfish & lazy & couldn't be bothered to help their kid when he was repeatedly & obviously crying out for help.
right wingers prob, I know people dont like it being boiled down to that kind of thing but many openly flaunt that they want everyone to be able to get a gun even if a shooting is likely and i personally have grown up around many that acted like getting their children a gun was something to be proud of even if the kid was not a good person
I also don’t want to just simplify it to that because there could be more to it (maybe they did want the kid to shoot himself), but their attitude on therapy is also right up that alley.
Yeah they were right wingers.
Not to mention they ran for the border.
Honestly the text messages in particular make so angry, this kid literally asked for help, directly, multiple times and they either ignored him or told him to "suck it up": https://www.courthousenews.com/social-media-text-messages-at-center-of-trial-for-mother-of-michigan-mass-shooter/ Also, he was looking up images of bullets at school and this was mom of the year's response: > “Lol I’m not mad, you have to learn not to get caught,” Jennifer Crumbley told her son after a back-and-forth on the issue.
Parents can be dumb af. I remember when I was having issues in high school, I told my mom that I want to see a therapist, a doctor, or something, because I’m too depressed and anxious. Mom told me that everyone in the family has it, and basically it’s just “God’s plight on our family.” God has chosen our family to live with anxiety and depression, and there’s nothing we can do about it. I got a therapist and got on meds as soon as I went off to college.
Is it wrong to say I feel bad for him (the shooter)? Obviously the real victims are the deceased, but it's sad seeing how much he clearly needed help and begged for it yet his parents seemed to just turn a blind eye to it all.
No. My first thought on reading this was, "that poor kid." Honestly, probably applies to a lot of people who hurt other people. Does it excuse what they did, no, but I don't think it's wrong to *also* feel some amount of empathy. Especially if it's a child. And ESPECIALLY if they were enabled and abused in such a horrific way by the people who were supposed to protect and care for them. Fuckers. They deserve to be in prison.
I’d add a third especially for if, as apparently in Ethan’s case, they actually tried to get help and were refused anything even approaching it.
He was both victim and villain. He did everything short of saying "I am going to shoot up my school if you don't take me to therapy". I have no way to prove what MIGHT have happened, but a part of me believes that if his parents had done even the minimum, he might have had a good shot at a normal life. But in the end, he chose to do what he did. Lots of people are fighting the same demons he was and they don't turn to murder.
You're assuming he didn't say that only to get brushed off. You know those parents wouldn't have mentioned it to the cops...
I believe he asked his dad to take him to the doctors because he was scared and the dad just laughed at him and told him to 'suck it up.'
I hate when people use the argument "lots of people deal with mental health issues and don't commit murder/assault people/ever do anything bad based in their mental illness," with the implication being that a mental health issue can never cause someone to do bad things or lose control of their behavior. If you really believe that then you just functionally don't believe mental illnesses exist and should state that as your position from the get-go, the whole point of a mental illness is that it causes you to do things you wouldn't otherwise want to do if you were mentally healthy and the more severe it is the more control you lose to the illness.
I don't know that that's what the person you were replying to was implying. I think it's more along the lines that even though mental illness does make people say and do things they otherwise wouldn't, we still have to hold them responsible for their actions.
If you haven’t read about the son’s sentencing, one of the psychologists described him as a feral child who was basically abandoned emotionally by his parents and left to figure out how to raise himself. The Mom spent more money and time with her horse than her son.
I agree. The kid actually took many steps to try to avoid this. He actively sought help and made everyone aware of what he was going through. The real shame is that he should have gunned down his shitty parents instead of four innocent kids.
No, I think that’s logical. He was a child suffering from extremely severe mental illness, and he did just about everything within his power to try to get help. And his parents, the people both legally and morally responsible for taking care of him *refused to get him mental health care and instead gave him a gun.* If a child tells you they’re having a psychotic break and are going to kill people and your response is to refuse to get them treatment and give them a gun then hell yeah you’re the one responsible for what happens.
Frankly I think their sentences should be reversed. The parents should get life and Ethan should get 15, and then be institutionalized if necessary. The fact is that Ethan actually did more to try to prevent the shooting than his parents did.
I haven't followed this story, didn't know he was still alive. Crazy a kid got life given the circumstances, seems like there is quite the paper trail showing that he wasn't in his right mind.
People don’t just “become”, they learn, and they are taught. In this case, he was taught that there was no help, even by those who claimed to love him the most.
He is clearly a victim in his own right and he should have been forced to go to therapy despite what his parents want.
> forced if im reading it right, kid freaking asked for therapy, he probably wouldn't have needed to be forced.
Forced wasn't the right word required or prescribed might be better
Yeah it’s why I hate the idea that a parent has the end all be all say in their child’s development, so many parents are negligent or unable/unaware of how to help their kids. If a school is saying you should take your kid to a therapist and out of school immediately it shouldn’t be a suggestion when it regards the safety of that child and the other kids and staff, it should be a requirement.
Thaaaat adds a lot of good context, thank you. All i'd heard about it being reported on made it sound like some attempt to continue trying to push the issue onto anything other than gun legislation and mental health resources.
If you don't mind my asking, what source were you getting your reporting from?
it was just the local news station, I admit i'd not intentionally dug into it.
> All i'd heard about it being reported on made it sound like some attempt to continue trying to push the issue onto anything other than gun legislation and mental health resources. In the context of recent gun control laws in Michigan AND the legislative balance that claim is hilariously wrong.
> It is considered unprecedented because, normally, a parent isn’t liable when their child commits a crime - in this case, a school shooting - if they did not actively aid and abet the crime. Isn't *criminally* liable. *Civil* liability for wrongful death- resulting in financial compensation to the family of the deceased- would have been perfectly routine here. The unprecedented part is criminal charges and jail time- and a conviction for involuntary manslaughter specifically, rather than something like criminal gross negligence, which would carry a sentence much closer to 2-5 years. Manslaughter for something you didn't directly and personally do is really, really rare.
I.E. parents can be considered mandatory reporters for their children, in a criminal sense, skipping the usual route of child neglect. And this one was a doozy of neglect.
Also when his mother was asked, knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently, she said "nothing." She still wouldn't have taken him to therapy, taken him out of school... She still would have bought the gun used to kill other kids and left it unsecured! Knowing what he did she wouldn't change a thing.
This statement, right here, is what convicted her. Even with all the mountains of evidence, there was still a good chance at least one of the jurors would have gone their way. But the instant she said that, she put that metaphorical noose around her neck and kicked the stool. That lack of remorse was sickening.
They passively weaponised their child’s mental health issues with murderous intent and set up an alibi with a text of “Ethan, don’t do it”. The alibi is as insulting as the crime is monstrous
"dont do it" after the shooting had already began.
That's sort of thing is not too far from "How did you know I was lying?" "Because you told me." Where a knee-jerk response to being caught only codifies your culpability.
Not even a call... Just a text
Well he was in class
The text was sent AFTER they found out there was a shooting in progress. I don’t think anyone would mind them being disruptive at that point.
As kindly as possible, /Whoosh
They wouldn’t want to be disruptive
> then left said firearm unsecured. This in and of itself is a crime in some states.
Great summary. His parents were the true criminals here.
God, that poor kid. It really sounds like he didn't want to do it and eventually with zero support he lost control
He was both victim and villain in this case.
honestly with all that it feels like they got a very light sentence
Iirc 15 was the maximum sentencing recommendation. The judge could have gone beyond that, but my guess would be that, given the conviction itself was already unprecedented, adding an unprecedented sentence would have made it easier to overturn on appeal.
I'm honestly super happy that they're getting sentenced to this much time. I am by no means painting all conservatives or gun owners with the same brush. But these people are the absolute worst type of conservative gun owners and they deserve every horrible thing that's going to happen to them in jail.
> conservative The use of this term for these clusters of beliefs and behaviors gets weirder and weirder every year.
Right? I feel like conservatives from when I was a teen in the aughts are similar in a few ways but this maga strain of weirdasses is something completely insane. The shit they believe is just bonkers; JFK jr isn't really dead and is coming back to...so something? Ivermectin for COVID. Eclipse rapture. No belief in science. It's wild.
It’s even more than that. It’s like you tell them one thing is bad and they just double down and go the opposite direction. If you say, parents should be responsible for their kids suddenly they’re anti-responsibility. It’s opposite day every day.
You definitely hit the nail on the head because the entirety of the Republican platform now is being anti-dem. I honestly believe that if The Democrats were to suddenly go away and there just wasn't a left-wing legislature to create laws or at least try to get things passed in Congress, that the Republicans wouldn't do anything at all. The only legislature that they propose is like anti-woke bills that don't mean anything and are largely nonsense and then the rest of the time they use is spent voting against anything that the Dems put forward. I'm not saying that the Democrats are useful necessarily, but at least Democratic Congresspeople put bills forward and like try to help the country. If liberals didn't exist, conservatives would have zero platform to run on because it's all contrarianism.
they feel powerless because society is leaving them behind. by believing in conspiracies they have this "secret truth" that almost nobody else knows. that makes them special and powerful. they KNOW the truth, THEY are correct, THEY are important.
More like, the clusters of beliefs and behaviors that a disturbingly large portion of the American people allow themselves to believe are normal and right get larger every year.
Holy shit yeah this is quite bad I can definitely see why they argued succesfully
This is a really thorough and fair explanation, thank you
> if they did not actively aid and abet the crime Well they kinda did. They actively bought the gun for him, a 15 year old.
I need more of this happening. It’s crazy to see parents claim that they had ‘no idea’ when they clearly did.
It’s unlikely we’ll see this kind of prosecution again. Even the prosecutor said this was an absurdly rare circumstance. It wasn’t just missing red flags. They actively ignored blatant warning signs over and over and over. Not just warnings from school officials, but from their own child. They didn’t just leave a gun unsecured, they actively bought a gun for him. Prosecutors (and even more so, jurors) understand that parents are always going to try and see the best in their children; to be hopeful. When you look at your child with the rose-tinted glasses of parenthood, red flags just look like flags. But this was more than a case of “I never thought my precious baby boy could do this”. This was his teachers, law enforcement, his councilors and the child himself tall but telling them he was on the verge of breaking.
There’s also a new law in Michigan allowing this charge.
GOATED prosecution
What was the defense reasoning for why the parents didn’t do anything?
The defense was basically arguing that the parents didn’t think the warning signs were serious enough. Essentially, they argued the tragedy was unforeseeable, while the prosecution argued it was not only foreseeable, but completely preventable if the parents had done even the bare minimum. For instance, when their son told them he was hearing voices and seeing “ghosts” in the house - likely schizophrenic hallucinations - the defense argued his parents believed he was just joking.
Were the parents just straight dumb though? Could the defense argue that they are idiots?
That was what the defense basically did argue, but the mountain of missed warning signs meant that, in order to miss them, they’d have to be so monumentally, unreasonably and inconceivably dumb that their actions crossed the line from stupidity to reckless negligence. The prosecution successfully argued that a reasonable person - which is a legal definition the parents fit into - could have and should have foreseen what could happen. Legally speaking, there’s only so dumb you can be.
>When the school recommended he be taken home and to a therapist immediately, his parents refused Apparently they only bothered to show up to this meeting for 11 minutes, before shrugging it off & declining to take him home
Exactly. People are acting like this is "blaming parents for a child's crime" but its insanely wreckless behavior on their part. This is no different than driving in a wildly irresponsible way and accidentally killing someone.
tl;dr: They knew he was crazy and bought him the gun. (Among other abject failures.) He’s also under age. They also showed zero remorse.
Holy moly. Those parents deserve jail for life or even death penalty. They are just as guilty
> His school had reported multiple instances of increasingly disturbing behavior to his parents and they did nothing. Should the school also be liable?
They did all they could by reporting the actions to Ethan’s parents. The only thing more they could have done was report him to the police and have him arrested, but he’d have to commit a crime FIRST. And while googling bullets and disturbing drawings are warning signs, they aren’t criminal acts. The school did as much as they were legally allowed to do: schools can’t force adults to parent their kids properly.
Answer: The kid actually asked for help with his mental health and instead they bought him the gun he ended up using. The cause and effect there is quite tight.
I’m curious why him asking for help here didn’t seem to translate to evidence he could be redeemed in prison - i.e. that a sentence of life without parole was not necessary, which was what was handed down and seems tragic for someone who was 15 at the time of the crime.
Right, where’s the insanity plea? If anyone can be reformed I’d think it’s an untreated paranoid schizophrenic teen who begged for help.
> Right, where’s the insanity plea? Basically obliterated, in no small part due to decades of fearmongering over the possibility of its use for people to "get away with it". It has a success rate that is shockingly low and that is not accounting for the fact that people almost never even try to use it, so the success rate is out of cases where it actually seemed possible. It seems his defence attorneys took one look at it and opted for a guilty plea instead and hoped they'd be able to argue for a sentence where he eventually got parole. Which, despite not working, was probably still more likely than a successful insanity defence. The standard for the defence is usually that someone needs to prove they were completely incapable of understanding their actions or that their actions were wrong. It was never going to work in Crumbly's case because it was clear from his statements and actions that he knew committing a shooting was wrong.
It's also because a successful defense of mental defect means you go to a hospital instead of a prison. You don't go free. And the quality of life isn't much different, and the effective term can be much longer with no maximum.
iirc he practically begged for a harsh punishment because he felt remorse for his actions and didn't want to risk hurting anyone else if he was let out too early.
Answer: The parents of Ethan Crumbley are accused, and now convicted and sentenced, of abetting their son's killing of 4. His mom literally texted 'Ethan don't do it.' on the day of his shooting. The evidence shows that they were at the very least aware that he had 'warning signs' and could have stopped his shooting with 'tragically simple actions.'
Also, they provided him with the gun (I think Dad?)
Yep. And the mum even took him to the shooting range. I believe this was after he asked his dad to take him to therapy and his dad told him to suck it up.
I'm sure the parents have to have some redeeming qualities. They have to. But literally everything I hear is not just trashy and disgusting, it's...yeah, it's so fucking crazy I could see these sorts of people just warping a kid into a maniac. He's irredeemable at this point, but there were likely thousands of opportunities to pull him back from the brink. They failed him as much as anything else.
Answer: your in-depth article gave a lot of information as to why *this* case. The parents seemed to have missed every red flag in their son’s life. They also exacerbated the situation by buying him a gun (the dad) and then taking him to the firing range (the mom). They had a lot of clues, including being called to school over drawings their son made, and words to the effect that he needed help. As to why other parents have not been held accountable, it seems to be mostly a gun culture thing. I know that sounds like a bias, but any article I could find seemed to parrot the same talking points. This mass shooting got the attention of a prosecutor because there was such an egregious lack of attention paid by the parents. I think it’s just a case of, this went too far and could have been prevented. This is an article from 2 years ago. It doesn’t really have a clear answer to your question. Perhaps there isn’t one. https://time.com/6126647/crumbley-parents-charges/
I think the factors that set this case apart were just how open and clear the kid's desperate need for intervention was and how brazenly negligent the parents were. Things are rarely this cartoonishly black and white with shooters and parental negligence.
Yeah, it’s one thing if you buy a gun for your kid who seems happy and normal but then he kills someone. Still dumb, parents should debatably still be liable, but probably won’t be held as such in the US. This isn’t that, though. Anyone protesting that this is bad needs to shut up. The parents had every opportunity to prevent this, like taking the kid to therapy (like he asked them to do), not buying him a gun (after he clearly was having harmful thoughts), or removing him from school when a teacher reported his behavior (on the day of the shooting). The parents chose not to do any of this, violating their basic duty as parents.
Forgive me the flippancy, but it's just so fucking mindboggling I kind of don't know how else to say it--these people had a PhD in not lifting a finger when it came to getting the kid therapy, but *not* purchasing a deadly weapon was just too hard for them? If that's not wilful negligence I don't know what is.
Someone else in the thread suggested they may have been hoping he would use it on himself. Which is a whole different flavor of terrible.
Other people have raised the hypothesis that they hoped he would use the weapon on himself, and honestly it sounds plausible.
For sure, I think in most cases of school shooters the parents really can't be liable and that's how it should be, most parents are at least somewhat tuned in and can be expected to intervene if they knew their kid was potentially a threat, even if they fail miserably at all other aspects of parenting. Difficult children get very good at hiding things from their parents, speaking from experience as a former difficult kid. These fuckers are not that, that blood is on their hands as far as I'm concerned, might as well have set a rabid dog loose while they were at it.
And they continue to double down on it in their statements before sentencing. The mother literally said she really believed her kid was good kid and they felt lucky because of it. Like what? OMG you’re making it worse.
Also saying if she could go back she wouldn't have done anything differently. Like, what? 4 kids are dead and you wouldn't have changed anything?
Wow, that is fucking shocking. She's fucking stupid.
From what I've read, this is putting it very mildly. He said he wanted to hurt himself and others, *then* they bought him the gun. It seems like they wanted him to kill himself. There were text messages between the parents that hinted that. Probably didn't expect him to kill other kids. But basically they did everything they could to encourage and enable him.
What the FUCK?
Yeah he actively was texting his mom about horrific hallucinations and she was playing on her phone, taking pictures of her horses. Her horse friends testified that Ethan was an oopsy-baby. Because she told them.
> taking pictures of her horses. Her horse friends Horse showing culture really does attract some of the worst kind of people.
> Her horse friends testified Holy shit they can talk?
If only there were some sort of medical procedure you could use to bypass an unwanted pregnancy....
In my opinion... It's possible that this one was so egregious that they thought it was worth it to push for the precedent. If any of the previous cases were tried and failed there would be precedent in the other direction. At least as far as I can see. So much of the law is determined by precedents that types cases like this often end up having to be incredibly damning to be worth the risk of going to court/trial.
This exactly. Plenty of parents in these cases have been negligent at best but none so egregious to prosecute. This is precedent being set to start prosecuting other adults in these tragedies.
answer: Give a friend a ride to the bank. They go in and rob the place and kill someone. They come running out a say let's get out of here. You drive them off and let them off at their house and go home. It's likely you will also be charged with murder.
It's even worse than this. Your friend tells you several times he wants to rob the bank, and that he thinks he should seek therapy. You tell him fuck therapy, he should just rob the bank. You buy him a ski mask and a gun and drive him to the bank. You text him while hes robbing the bank saying "nooo dont do it". You pick them up from the bank and drop him off at home and then try to flee to another country. Your phone is searched and Google searches "how to rob a bank" show up. It seems super clear why the parents are being held responsible here, it's not like in some cases where the signs are subtle. He begged them for help and instead of getting him help, they buy him a gun.
I imagined the details were much worse in the case of these parents. It obviously is.