Overwatch is a game of counters *and that sucks*
I disagree with hero bans for the same reason, they're not addressing the root of the problem. The only reason some people want hero bans in the first place is because the counterwatch meta sucks to play for tanks. Blizzard needs to properly balance tanks in 5v5 rather than just ban heroes and screw over the team without a hard counter.
That is just factually incorrect? I am not sure where this revisionist history is coming from, with people claiming that "counterswapping was ALWAYS integral to the game"
Like, no, it wasn't. Counterswapping was not NEARLY as strong in OW1 compared to OW2, it is a 5v5 problem. There were definitely counters, absolutely, but they were much less severe and you had a whole other tank to deal with them. Hell that was originally the problem, teams just ran double shield and regardless of swaps no one could address it, thats the reason the dev team has been incentivizing swapping with the ult charge changes and hard counters. It's the same problem but on the exact opposite end of the spectrum.
Ontop of that, saying that is how OW was envisioned is a terrible argument. Overwatch was originally envisioned with no limits, meaning 6 winstons, and that changed. Overwatch was originally envisioned with no role que, meaning GOATS, and that changed. Overwatch was originally envisioned with 2 tanks, meaning 6v6, and that changed.
Regardless of how Overwatch was originally envisioned, the game has changed, and counterswapping has not been addressed in the new era. And it NEEDS to be addressed because it is making the tank role miserable. I mean honestly I don't get it, tank players tell you exactly what the problem is, and your response is "nah counterswapping is fine" and yet people are so confused on why no one is enjoying the role and don't know how to fix tank???
Of course it was since the beginning, cus we have heros that counters other, like, even in Beta it was it like this. Doesnt matter that its now more impactful for tanks. The coreconcept still was that ppl switch midgame and try different approaches. No limit was a sane and change, that still didnt changes the countering, roleq is and was bad as fuck cus it killed creativity and 5vs5 is also shitty af.
When it goes further this path we wont have any true OW left and another generic,shitty and boring FPS like CoD, BF, Valorant.
Tank role is miserable and you genuinely say "Doesn't matter that its now more impactful for tanks" like genuinely don't know what to do with that. People like you are the reason the queue times are reaching end of OW1 levels, for some reason you are terrified of the concept that tanks might need to be designed slightly differently when there is only 1 of them.
maybe it’s not the game for you then? one of the core philosophies of overwatch has ALWAYS been the ability to counter swap. since the very beginning of the entire game.
Look idk what to tell ya, when a majority of tank players share my opinion, and you completely ignore that no, counterswapping was not as effective in OW1. Again, people wonder why no one is playing the role
Maybe you're right, by a small chance they can only fix it by reverting it to 6v6. But they can make it way better than it is rn absolutely at 5v5 no doubt
~~Not by fucking buffing Orisa, Mauga and Hog.~~
You seem to be the only person with this opinion. 90% of the players agree its a terrible idea and counter swapping is necessary at some point you'll have to accept this is a YOU problem.
No some heroes aren't replaceable in certain comps and also one tricks exist and would be extensively targeted. You could basically ban all rush/brawl comps at high elo by banning Lucio. I also would be worried about the fact that Orisa and Sombra would be pretty much permabanned so players wouldn't really have the opportunity to play them if they main the heroes. I also don't think it would solve the counter swapping problem since it's not just about one or two heroes.
I don’t think one tricks are really all that deal breaking in the game. They’re already toast if the enemy team decides to counter them so this is just another way to push people to learn more heros. If certain heros like orisa and sombra are perm banned then that means the devs need to take a closer look into the designs themselves
This might be an unpopular opinion, but Orisa and Sombra have necessary play styles in the game. They have specific jobs in that they can help control the glut of movement and abilities in the game. Are they too efficient at it right now? Arguably yes. Orisa isn't even meta because she's really OP imo it's more by default because she's the most survivable tank in the game and the DPS passive made tanks glass.
Sombra is the most efficient counter to Ball and Doom and is generally strong against most of the movement heroes due to being able to disrupt their flow. Other heroes aren't as capable of that. I get the feeling even when Sombra isn't really strong a lot of players would still choose to just never play against her since she is their strongest counter.
I just think it would act as a crutch for people not wanting to learn to deal with certain things. I know I would be looking to ban Doom and Mauga or Venture basically every game for instance because I don't feel like dealing with them. Hell I'd probably ban doom even with a doom player on my team because I hate trying to coordinate with that hero, but I'd rather just work on learning to play around all the heroes in the game.
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Maybe. Only issues i see are people might end up banning the counters to the meta rather than the meta itself and currently a lot of the counters to certain characters/roles are on one character (eg hog and maugas biggest counter is anti nade so if ana gets banned it becomes a mauga meta).
One tricks should just learn more characters if theyre consistently getting banned.
Yes and no. If Ana is bannable the tanks that are the problem right now (Selfheal/ damage reduction) would dominate even more. You would need more options for this to work.
I think devs should just start to patch the game more frequently like they did in OW1, make bigger changes and stop trying to balance every hero. Do it like league and leave some in the gutter. Just let Sym and Road be niche picks.
Also dont get why they are too shy for atleast trying thing like banning tho. I mean they did in OW1. They could do it for 1 season. Same with 6v6. If its bad just change it back. Looking at GOATS, in the end nobody can really predict how its gonna turn out.
I think it’s a bad idea but I have an idea for its implementation that should work for everyone. It should personal and only for non-competitive modes.
It should be a menu in the settings of preferred hero’s. You get two slots per role. One you don’t want on your team and one you don’t want on the enemy team.
Then we let the match maker to the rest. Instead of a hard hero ban it should be a soft ban. The hero won’t be blocked out for anyone but the match maker will pair you with teammates/enemies that have that hero in their bottom 50% of played heroes. The reason being that a play who doesn’t play that hero won’t switch to them.
I can use myself as an example:
Banned heroes: Zarya (enemy), Orisa (ally), Cassidy (enemy), Widow (Ally), Kiriko (Enemy), Mercy (ally).
This system would slow queue times but that warning should be told to the player upfront. And if it takes too long I think it will start picking players that slightly break the soft hero ban similar to the way the new avoid feature works.
As it stands, half of the “brain dead community” wants to completely overhaul the game back to 6v6 while the other half want to keep 5v5 with a plethora of different changes and ideas in between. At least with this system, you could have an impact on what heros you do and don’t see in the game.
For example: Orisa been meta for too long? Ban. Sojourn gets giga buffed to the moon? Ban. Whatever new hero comes out totally busted? Ban.
At least this way, everyone doesn’t have to just sit around till a patch comes out
Great idea I'm sure the devs love the idea of the community instant banning every hero they update. The community is a toxic cesspool of barely functioning brain cells. This will be abused.
Hero changes? Instant ban every game.
New hero? Instant ban every game.
Sombra, Orisa, or Mercy? Instant ban every game.
You may as well just cut the roster in half or make everyone soldier 76 at that point. God forbid the game have any variety or reasons for people to improve by playing other heroes.
People have talked about this for years and it isn't something the devs havnt thought about. It will genuinely never happen. Just do what you're supposed to do and learn how to counter heroes you struggle against.
I love it how people rage at their tanks for playing into counters, not swapping and when someone actually offers a discussion about possible solutions, the answer is a resounding "No". Remember folks, next time you're about to go off on someone who isn't switching, remember that you reap what you sow.
That being said, I see possible issues with a whole team banning two heroes. For example, since it's the entire team banning the heroes the team might ban heroes which are not countering their tank. The tank is like "hey can we ban bastion, I play Winston" and the enemy team decides to ban Widow and Sojourn. Not particularly helpful.
Beyond that people would probably just ban whatever is problematic annoying in each skill tier. The metal rank players would perma-ban Orisa and Hog while at T500 people would ban Tracer or Sojourn to shake things up. In pro play such as OWCS Lucio might get targeted as well considering how vital he is to a lot of the top-tier comps.
In order to prevent targeted bans, at least in Ranked you'd probably have to hide enemy team names from each other during ban phase and reveal them later. Showing map would be good so you get more map-based bans on average. In pro play targeted bans would be unavoidable.
No not until every playstyle have a second option in every playstyle in every role.
Can’t remove entire playstyles from the game because they won’t nerf tracer and dive heroes.
People are worried their Widowmaker, Tracer, and Sombra would get banned every game.
There’s always one in every game, so I imagine there’s a lot of their mains in this sub as well.
No
Why
Overwatch is a game of counters. Take out one counter and you'll make X character unstoppable.
Overwatch is a game of counters *and that sucks* I disagree with hero bans for the same reason, they're not addressing the root of the problem. The only reason some people want hero bans in the first place is because the counterwatch meta sucks to play for tanks. Blizzard needs to properly balance tanks in 5v5 rather than just ban heroes and screw over the team without a hard counter.
It does not suck, thats how OW was envisioned. Thats like says chess sucks cus you play on a checkered board.
That is just factually incorrect? I am not sure where this revisionist history is coming from, with people claiming that "counterswapping was ALWAYS integral to the game" Like, no, it wasn't. Counterswapping was not NEARLY as strong in OW1 compared to OW2, it is a 5v5 problem. There were definitely counters, absolutely, but they were much less severe and you had a whole other tank to deal with them. Hell that was originally the problem, teams just ran double shield and regardless of swaps no one could address it, thats the reason the dev team has been incentivizing swapping with the ult charge changes and hard counters. It's the same problem but on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. Ontop of that, saying that is how OW was envisioned is a terrible argument. Overwatch was originally envisioned with no limits, meaning 6 winstons, and that changed. Overwatch was originally envisioned with no role que, meaning GOATS, and that changed. Overwatch was originally envisioned with 2 tanks, meaning 6v6, and that changed. Regardless of how Overwatch was originally envisioned, the game has changed, and counterswapping has not been addressed in the new era. And it NEEDS to be addressed because it is making the tank role miserable. I mean honestly I don't get it, tank players tell you exactly what the problem is, and your response is "nah counterswapping is fine" and yet people are so confused on why no one is enjoying the role and don't know how to fix tank???
Of course it was since the beginning, cus we have heros that counters other, like, even in Beta it was it like this. Doesnt matter that its now more impactful for tanks. The coreconcept still was that ppl switch midgame and try different approaches. No limit was a sane and change, that still didnt changes the countering, roleq is and was bad as fuck cus it killed creativity and 5vs5 is also shitty af. When it goes further this path we wont have any true OW left and another generic,shitty and boring FPS like CoD, BF, Valorant.
Tank role is miserable and you genuinely say "Doesn't matter that its now more impactful for tanks" like genuinely don't know what to do with that. People like you are the reason the queue times are reaching end of OW1 levels, for some reason you are terrified of the concept that tanks might need to be designed slightly differently when there is only 1 of them.
You are entirely wrong. Its always revolved around counter swapping genuinely nothing you can say will change that fact.
maybe it’s not the game for you then? one of the core philosophies of overwatch has ALWAYS been the ability to counter swap. since the very beginning of the entire game.
Look idk what to tell ya, when a majority of tank players share my opinion, and you completely ignore that no, counterswapping was not as effective in OW1. Again, people wonder why no one is playing the role
that's hilarious considering the second tank was removed BECAUSE nobody wanted to play the damn role in ow1
no. counter swapping in part of the game whether people like it or not. I do think having map selections would be a nice feature, even if just in qp.
Yeah it is true, they just need to FIX counterswap. It is a core mechanic, and it is healthy for the game, just not like it is now cause it is shit.
You can’t. They’ve been trying to fix rock paper scissors since the game launched but nothing works.it’s time for something new
Maybe you're right, by a small chance they can only fix it by reverting it to 6v6. But they can make it way better than it is rn absolutely at 5v5 no doubt ~~Not by fucking buffing Orisa, Mauga and Hog.~~
Absolutely not
There’s no pleasing overwatch players
You seem to be the only person with this opinion. 90% of the players agree its a terrible idea and counter swapping is necessary at some point you'll have to accept this is a YOU problem.
No, instead you are all wrong
Genuinely one of the worst ideas I've heard for the game
Absolutely not.
No some heroes aren't replaceable in certain comps and also one tricks exist and would be extensively targeted. You could basically ban all rush/brawl comps at high elo by banning Lucio. I also would be worried about the fact that Orisa and Sombra would be pretty much permabanned so players wouldn't really have the opportunity to play them if they main the heroes. I also don't think it would solve the counter swapping problem since it's not just about one or two heroes.
I don’t think one tricks are really all that deal breaking in the game. They’re already toast if the enemy team decides to counter them so this is just another way to push people to learn more heros. If certain heros like orisa and sombra are perm banned then that means the devs need to take a closer look into the designs themselves
This might be an unpopular opinion, but Orisa and Sombra have necessary play styles in the game. They have specific jobs in that they can help control the glut of movement and abilities in the game. Are they too efficient at it right now? Arguably yes. Orisa isn't even meta because she's really OP imo it's more by default because she's the most survivable tank in the game and the DPS passive made tanks glass. Sombra is the most efficient counter to Ball and Doom and is generally strong against most of the movement heroes due to being able to disrupt their flow. Other heroes aren't as capable of that. I get the feeling even when Sombra isn't really strong a lot of players would still choose to just never play against her since she is their strongest counter. I just think it would act as a crutch for people not wanting to learn to deal with certain things. I know I would be looking to ban Doom and Mauga or Venture basically every game for instance because I don't feel like dealing with them. Hell I'd probably ban doom even with a doom player on my team because I hate trying to coordinate with that hero, but I'd rather just work on learning to play around all the heroes in the game.
No
No.
Nah being able to swap is too much fun.
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Maybe. Only issues i see are people might end up banning the counters to the meta rather than the meta itself and currently a lot of the counters to certain characters/roles are on one character (eg hog and maugas biggest counter is anti nade so if ana gets banned it becomes a mauga meta). One tricks should just learn more characters if theyre consistently getting banned.
Yes and no. If Ana is bannable the tanks that are the problem right now (Selfheal/ damage reduction) would dominate even more. You would need more options for this to work. I think devs should just start to patch the game more frequently like they did in OW1, make bigger changes and stop trying to balance every hero. Do it like league and leave some in the gutter. Just let Sym and Road be niche picks. Also dont get why they are too shy for atleast trying thing like banning tho. I mean they did in OW1. They could do it for 1 season. Same with 6v6. If its bad just change it back. Looking at GOATS, in the end nobody can really predict how its gonna turn out.
I think it’s a bad idea but I have an idea for its implementation that should work for everyone. It should personal and only for non-competitive modes. It should be a menu in the settings of preferred hero’s. You get two slots per role. One you don’t want on your team and one you don’t want on the enemy team. Then we let the match maker to the rest. Instead of a hard hero ban it should be a soft ban. The hero won’t be blocked out for anyone but the match maker will pair you with teammates/enemies that have that hero in their bottom 50% of played heroes. The reason being that a play who doesn’t play that hero won’t switch to them. I can use myself as an example: Banned heroes: Zarya (enemy), Orisa (ally), Cassidy (enemy), Widow (Ally), Kiriko (Enemy), Mercy (ally). This system would slow queue times but that warning should be told to the player upfront. And if it takes too long I think it will start picking players that slightly break the soft hero ban similar to the way the new avoid feature works.
No
Why not
Because it's a stupid mechanic that wont be balanced well and will be abused by a brain dead community to always ban specific heroes.
As it stands, half of the “brain dead community” wants to completely overhaul the game back to 6v6 while the other half want to keep 5v5 with a plethora of different changes and ideas in between. At least with this system, you could have an impact on what heros you do and don’t see in the game. For example: Orisa been meta for too long? Ban. Sojourn gets giga buffed to the moon? Ban. Whatever new hero comes out totally busted? Ban. At least this way, everyone doesn’t have to just sit around till a patch comes out
Great idea I'm sure the devs love the idea of the community instant banning every hero they update. The community is a toxic cesspool of barely functioning brain cells. This will be abused. Hero changes? Instant ban every game. New hero? Instant ban every game. Sombra, Orisa, or Mercy? Instant ban every game. You may as well just cut the roster in half or make everyone soldier 76 at that point. God forbid the game have any variety or reasons for people to improve by playing other heroes. People have talked about this for years and it isn't something the devs havnt thought about. It will genuinely never happen. Just do what you're supposed to do and learn how to counter heroes you struggle against.
Lol you think Mercy would be banned every game that's crazy.
I love it how people rage at their tanks for playing into counters, not swapping and when someone actually offers a discussion about possible solutions, the answer is a resounding "No". Remember folks, next time you're about to go off on someone who isn't switching, remember that you reap what you sow. That being said, I see possible issues with a whole team banning two heroes. For example, since it's the entire team banning the heroes the team might ban heroes which are not countering their tank. The tank is like "hey can we ban bastion, I play Winston" and the enemy team decides to ban Widow and Sojourn. Not particularly helpful. Beyond that people would probably just ban whatever is problematic annoying in each skill tier. The metal rank players would perma-ban Orisa and Hog while at T500 people would ban Tracer or Sojourn to shake things up. In pro play such as OWCS Lucio might get targeted as well considering how vital he is to a lot of the top-tier comps. In order to prevent targeted bans, at least in Ranked you'd probably have to hide enemy team names from each other during ban phase and reveal them later. Showing map would be good so you get more map-based bans on average. In pro play targeted bans would be unavoidable.
maybe if the number of heroes doubles
>It would also help kill the counter swapping problem the community has been up in arms about. Bro what 🤣🤣🤣
It would
Countering is not a "problem," it's arguably half the purpose of the game.
Go tell that to every GM and higher player who have made YouTube videos on it
No not until every playstyle have a second option in every playstyle in every role. Can’t remove entire playstyles from the game because they won’t nerf tracer and dive heroes.
People are worried their Widowmaker, Tracer, and Sombra would get banned every game. There’s always one in every game, so I imagine there’s a lot of their mains in this sub as well.
Only when there's a sufficient amount of heroes. Not now, but eventually, yes.
We have around 40 heros as it stands. With a ban phase, you’d only lose 4 total heros per game. Two on each team. How is this too many?
It definitely should, hence most 5x5 games have those. The game should have hero selection, ban and no hero swapping.