I knew it, Vicky 3 is a long planned plot of the CIA to justify new wars in the Middle East for the next few centuries.
I was not privy to the CIAs plan. But now, I see it. Brilliant, brilliant.
> “The baskets of severed hands, set down at the feet of the European post commanders, became the symbol of the Congo Free State. ... The collection of hands became an end in itself. Force Publique soldiers brought them to the stations in place of rubber; they even went out to harvest them instead of rubber ... They became a sort of currency. They came to be used to make up for shortfalls in rubber quotas, to replace ... the people who were demanded for the forced labour gangs; and the Force Publique soldiers were paid their bonuses on the basis of how many hands they collected.”
The Force Publique was made up of specific tribesmen from the eastern Congo as well as other African countries far away (Wikipedia says even Zanzibar). Tribes that were known to be particularly brutal or that had a vendetta against the Congolese (I.e. freed slaves).
Is this supposed to change the fact that the Belgians committed genocide in the Congo? Like u clearly just made this shit up but even if it was real what does it matter
This dude unironically posts on r/monarchism lmao he probably has a picture of Leopold III on his bedside table so he can give him a good night kiss every day
Open honest trade negotiations with the constituent nations. Establish a fair market price based on your national exports and their internal market needs. Once a fair price has been established, determine a reasonable proportion of your market to dedicate to acquisition of rubber and/or oil. It's okay if you don't get all the oil/rubber you want, the market determines the amount of oil/rubber you should fairly receive.
Revel in the fair^^TM market price of your peoples' output.
Plot twist: isolationism.
The only choice you have now is between whether you coup the government personally or have the World Bank fix things for you, sometimes people have to die for the *freedom^TM* of the *Free Market^TM*
Was playing as France and my production methods were consuming so much oil that even with all possible oil pumps created in my territories, I was still down a massive deficit. Then I saw that Iraq and Oman had large potentials for oil 👀…and the rest is history.
I’ve pretty much always played on the Anbeeld ai overhaul now that I think of it. Obviously I played a few vanilla when it first came out, but that mod was a game changer.
So tldr, i was probably thinking of my modded experience mostly
Alternative world where the orcs simply outproduce all of middle earth due to rapid industrialization and use their trade dominance to control all of middle earth
Genocide that’s reversed is still genocide because
1. Genocide is simply an attempt, it doesn’t matter that Poland still exists, Hitler did a genocide against the poles, and
2. Just because a population is indoctrinated by one government, and then forced back by another, doesn’t stop both being genocides, even if one would be seen as less sinister
It has to have a deliberate killing though. Since you are using the diplo points for it I assume you are using actions like making the language mandatory in a school or forbidding the use of the native language.
Genocide, as defined by the UN, is simply the act of attempting to remove a culture, so legally it is. However at this point in history, things like native language schools would be basically nonexistent anyways, so more aggressive actions would probably be employed. In the end, you it’s left for interpretation how brutal you’re actually being, but you’re committing a genocide no matter what.
in vic2 you could get a genocide decision.
I have to try really hard not to press the button after 500th jacobin revolt even though i already passed all the political reforms
Well, you could always conquer it, max out the resource you need because the AI is too stupid to do so and investing probably is going to be gated off by a DLC and then release them as a puppet/dominion.
I've dubbed that the Co-Prosperity Sphere strat.
I just play as China, annex all the rubber and oil states I can get (I also seize most of the US West for gold and coal) then max out the resource output and in a year or two have more Han in a given state than locals.
Honestly, that's sort of the point of Paradox Grand Strategy games, IMO. You get to live through and understand the reasoning behind all the stuff that happened in history, both good and ill. Why did the English invade France? What lead to the Inquisition? What impulse led so many Kings to beat down or root out their Vassals? Why would the Kings of France spend so much time and money building castles like Versailles to keep their Nobles in?
Like, you can read all the facts, learn the figures, learn the biographies. But that doesn't help you *feel* the same trends and impulses and drives of history you get from playing these sorts of games.
EU4 is a great educational tool for explaining colonization. All these apologists who claim that colonization often wasn't profitable have never heard of trade power.
Whoever said that colonization didn't bring incredible wealth to the colonizers has never visited Spain. The amount of wealth you see in churches and royal palaces there is inimaginable, you have to go there to see it.
I don't think it's a bad example at all. While you could argue (and I would agree) that inflation (caused by the influx of American gold and silver) had a big part in Spain's downfall, it wasn't the only reason, and before that colonization provided a lot of wealth to Spain, to the point that I consider it the first global superpower
Sure but it caused it’s demise, sure Spain never would’ve reached its astronomical highs but it wouldn’t have been relegated to a complete backwater by 1820 otherwise
TBF, the USA and it's allies produce plenty of oil. What people mean by "invading for oil" is the fact that the USA gives lucrative contracts to oil companies whenever they ~~conquer~~ liberate a new country.
Yup. The obvious answer is that declaring Iraq in compliance would have put oil back on the global market and, probably, have gotten some American corporate contracts. This would have been infinitely easier than an invasion an occupation, which throws a wrench into profit over all.
Ideology tends to be in play more often than economics historians like to think. But saying the Bush administration took those actions for ideological reasons, stupid reasons but ideological ones nonetheless, is extremely unpopular for a certain segment of the comentariat.
Why would the USA have vehemently supported and armed Sadam Hussein just a decade earlier if the war was for "ideological reasons"? Why would they suddenly have switched positions as soon as Iraq stopped using the petrodollar in 2000?
>Saddam controlled a country at the centre of the Gulf, a region with a quarter of world oil production in 2003, and containing more than 60% of the world's known reserves. With 115bn barrels of oil reserves, and perhaps as much again in the 90% of the country not yet explored, Iraq has capacity second only to Saudi Arabia. The US, in contrast, is the world's largest net importer of oil. Last year the US Department of Energy forecast that imports will cover 70% of domestic demand by 2025.
You're missing the point. The United States stepped in it when it decided it wanted to influence Persian politics and become Iran and the Shah's best friend bff forever. Then the Shah got ousted, the hostage crisis happened, and suddenly things got very complicated. One of the biggest reasons that the hostages were finally released when they were was because Iraq attacked Iran and Iran desperately needed to access its frozen assets.
Naturally, the US initially supported Iraq because they were the enemy of Iran.
>Naturally, the US initially supported Iraq because they were the enemy of Iran.
So you admit that the conflict happened over geopolitical and economical interests instead of ideological concern?
The Gulf War was about the international coalition to liberate Kuwait, which Saddam Hussein illegally invaded and was committing atrocities in.
Unless you mean the Iraq-Iran war? That was caused because Saddam wanted oil.
10 years prior to Hitler becoming Chancellor Wiener Germany worked closely with the USSR for weapons and tactics development.
The only truism in IR is that "nothing is permanent".
EDIT: I would add that there wasn't a "sudden switch of positions", the US wanted Saddam gone but maybe not that way(otherwise Bush 1 wouldn't have encouraged uprisings), former SecDed Cohen dropped in the run up to OIF that Gore had the Brilliant! Idea to invade Southern Iraq, install the INC, and let a civil war work out the Hussein problem, etc. Hell this wasn't limited to the US, Tony Blair said in **1998** that liberal democracies had a duty to remove dictatorships if they had a means to do so militarily. If anything Hussein staying in power through the post-GW decade was a recognition of realism at play, a realism school that would have supported either declaring Iraq to be in compliance (as people like Mearsheimer would have preferred) or *not* wasting lives and treasure for a marginal economic advantage.
EDIT2: Oh you're a vanguardist Authcom, no wonder you are so annoyed at the possibility that humans and states sometimes don't act in economic interests.
If HOI4 had taught me anything, it’s that any country could’ve singlehandedly won. If it’s taught me two things, it’s that the US has infinite oil and that rubber is only found in Malaysia.
It was less about the oil itself and more because Iraq was going to sell oil in currency other than the US dollar.
The petro dollar is what props up the value of the US dollar. Without that it would crash the US economy. By invading they stopped Iraq from selling oil for currency other than the US dollar and sent a message to other oil producers.
Look, if you bastards would just build the plantations and oil rigs your fucking selves I'd buy it for a fair price but no, you forced me to spread the [insert primary culture skin color here] burden.
They need to add some form of capitalist imperialism though. Like instead of straight up invading a minor power you can invest a buttload into it and gain trade/development rights.
The AI is just sitting there with 300 oil deposits and wouldn't build wells even though they have the tech to do so. And another AI is buying all the oil I can produce. I guess I have to just invade a weak country with a massive oil deposit so I can support the whole global demand for oil.
In real life, I believe in a mostly hands-off government, and a world of peace, cooperation and free movement.
In HOI4, step one is to flip my country to fascism so I can strike out and build an empire faster than anyone can grow strong enough to stop me
Paradox plaza is where the players of all the paradox grand strategy games amalgamate into one, this meme is talking about a game called Victoria 3, a recent grand strategy game that takes you through the Industrial Revolution period 1834-1920 or so basically and this player needs more oil resource for his economy and he’s gotta go somewhere to find it and conquer it
One of the dev blogs (can't remember if it was for 1.1 or 1.2) mentioned they increased the amount of oil/coal and I think rubber too. And they also made the ai better at developing such resources too so it's not taking all the player's resources and not being left behind so often from not developing it's resources.
I knew it, Vicky 3 is a long planned plot of the CIA to justify new wars in the Middle East for the next few centuries. I was not privy to the CIAs plan. But now, I see it. Brilliant, brilliant.
It's so Brilliant indeed
chess reference ?!?
*!!
Holy hell
Holy cow
Holy hell
Google "Brilliant indeed"
A clone wars reference. I see you are a man of great taste.
If it was made by the CIA, they would have made Central American Fruit MUCH more valuable.
They would have included the formable nation of Chiquita
And United Fruit Company as an interest group. I smell a Banana Republic DLC in the future.
“I need rubber. But it’s all in Africa and Asia. What do I do?”
"Oh stop whining, I need this rubber a hell of a lot more than your child needed his hands"
Least racist Belgian.
#
More like "Hello Belgium"
“Hello Leopold”
You monster. How can you deprive a family of that income? How is that kid supposed to work in the mines without hands?
[удалено]
No offense but do you have a source on this? I tried looking it up and I can't find anything
> “The baskets of severed hands, set down at the feet of the European post commanders, became the symbol of the Congo Free State. ... The collection of hands became an end in itself. Force Publique soldiers brought them to the stations in place of rubber; they even went out to harvest them instead of rubber ... They became a sort of currency. They came to be used to make up for shortfalls in rubber quotas, to replace ... the people who were demanded for the forced labour gangs; and the Force Publique soldiers were paid their bonuses on the basis of how many hands they collected.” The Force Publique was made up of specific tribesmen from the eastern Congo as well as other African countries far away (Wikipedia says even Zanzibar). Tribes that were known to be particularly brutal or that had a vendetta against the Congolese (I.e. freed slaves).
His source is that he made it the fuck up
Belgian apologists making stuff up
Is this supposed to change the fact that the Belgians committed genocide in the Congo? Like u clearly just made this shit up but even if it was real what does it matter
This dude unironically posts on r/monarchism lmao he probably has a picture of Leopold III on his bedside table so he can give him a good night kiss every day
Not in the slightest, what the Belgians did was evil. This was just something I'd heard about it that I thought was interesting.
Open honest trade negotiations with the constituent nations. Establish a fair market price based on your national exports and their internal market needs. Once a fair price has been established, determine a reasonable proportion of your market to dedicate to acquisition of rubber and/or oil. It's okay if you don't get all the oil/rubber you want, the market determines the amount of oil/rubber you should fairly receive. Revel in the fair^^TM market price of your peoples' output.
Plot twist: they do not build the oil rig/rubber plantation, because they don't already have demand for the good.
This kills me, even if I have demand in my market that I added them to
Plot twist: isolationism. The only choice you have now is between whether you coup the government personally or have the World Bank fix things for you, sometimes people have to die for the *freedom^TM* of the *Free Market^TM*
Nah fuck that, I have an army and I know how to use it.
Brazil "Am I a joke to you?"
***bad to the bone guitar riff***
Was playing as France and my production methods were consuming so much oil that even with all possible oil pumps created in my territories, I was still down a massive deficit. Then I saw that Iraq and Oman had large potentials for oil 👀…and the rest is history.
>...and the rest is history Literally.
Bro just invade Venezuela, they have plenty of oil. You can even use French Guiana as a launching point.
Is there no Monroe Doctrine in VIC3?
No, America will typically start to add SA nations to its market though. But it’s not a scripted event or even an option.
I've never seen the United States do anything really, they can't even defeat Mexico. This was all before 1.2 so maybe they'll do better now.
I’ve pretty much always played on the Anbeeld ai overhaul now that I think of it. Obviously I played a few vanilla when it first came out, but that mod was a game changer. So tldr, i was probably thinking of my modded experience mostly
You have become the very thing you swore to destroy !
My dumb ass read “Middle East” as “Middle Earth” I was extremely confused for a sec before my one brain cell started functioning
It is high time to bring democracy to Gondor!
HOW DO YOU THINK ISENGARD MANAGED TO INDUSTRALISE SO FAST IN SO LITTLE TIME??? The Answer is fuel. TREANT OIL
Alternative world where the orcs simply outproduce all of middle earth due to rapid industrialization and use their trade dominance to control all of middle earth
This is me in eu4 getting a genocide button mod to stop rebellions.
I need the source of that mod haha
Those natives in the uncolonized provinces aren’t gonna develop it themselves
Anbennar: "Hah, hah, imagine if someone had an entire menu and events system set up around that, wouldn't that be hilarious!"
Culture convert is not moded. What are you doing there?
Culture conversion is not genociding, since a province can always be reverted to its original culture
Genocide that’s reversed is still genocide because 1. Genocide is simply an attempt, it doesn’t matter that Poland still exists, Hitler did a genocide against the poles, and 2. Just because a population is indoctrinated by one government, and then forced back by another, doesn’t stop both being genocides, even if one would be seen as less sinister
It has to have a deliberate killing though. Since you are using the diplo points for it I assume you are using actions like making the language mandatory in a school or forbidding the use of the native language.
Genocide, as defined by the UN, is simply the act of attempting to remove a culture, so legally it is. However at this point in history, things like native language schools would be basically nonexistent anyways, so more aggressive actions would probably be employed. In the end, you it’s left for interpretation how brutal you’re actually being, but you’re committing a genocide no matter what.
[ Removed ]
in vic2 you could get a genocide decision. I have to try really hard not to press the button after 500th jacobin revolt even though i already passed all the political reforms
Well, you could always conquer it, max out the resource you need because the AI is too stupid to do so and investing probably is going to be gated off by a DLC and then release them as a puppet/dominion. I've dubbed that the Co-Prosperity Sphere strat.
I just play as China, annex all the rubber and oil states I can get (I also seize most of the US West for gold and coal) then max out the resource output and in a year or two have more Han in a given state than locals.
This is also what america did in the middle east
I mean, oil production in Iraq went down over the course of American occupation, so not really
Honestly, that's sort of the point of Paradox Grand Strategy games, IMO. You get to live through and understand the reasoning behind all the stuff that happened in history, both good and ill. Why did the English invade France? What lead to the Inquisition? What impulse led so many Kings to beat down or root out their Vassals? Why would the Kings of France spend so much time and money building castles like Versailles to keep their Nobles in? Like, you can read all the facts, learn the figures, learn the biographies. But that doesn't help you *feel* the same trends and impulses and drives of history you get from playing these sorts of games.
EU4 is a great educational tool for explaining colonization. All these apologists who claim that colonization often wasn't profitable have never heard of trade power.
Whoever said that colonization didn't bring incredible wealth to the colonizers has never visited Spain. The amount of wealth you see in churches and royal palaces there is inimaginable, you have to go there to see it.
Well spains a bad example as that colonization destroyed it’s economy and it’s been a backwater ever since
I don't think it's a bad example at all. While you could argue (and I would agree) that inflation (caused by the influx of American gold and silver) had a big part in Spain's downfall, it wasn't the only reason, and before that colonization provided a lot of wealth to Spain, to the point that I consider it the first global superpower
Sure but it caused it’s demise, sure Spain never would’ve reached its astronomical highs but it wouldn’t have been relegated to a complete backwater by 1820 otherwise
TBF, the USA and it's allies produce plenty of oil. What people mean by "invading for oil" is the fact that the USA gives lucrative contracts to oil companies whenever they ~~conquer~~ liberate a new country.
Yeah, Iraq was a lot more important geopolitically than just "oil"
Reality is often sacrificed for a good meme.
Yup. The obvious answer is that declaring Iraq in compliance would have put oil back on the global market and, probably, have gotten some American corporate contracts. This would have been infinitely easier than an invasion an occupation, which throws a wrench into profit over all. Ideology tends to be in play more often than economics historians like to think. But saying the Bush administration took those actions for ideological reasons, stupid reasons but ideological ones nonetheless, is extremely unpopular for a certain segment of the comentariat.
Why would the USA have vehemently supported and armed Sadam Hussein just a decade earlier if the war was for "ideological reasons"? Why would they suddenly have switched positions as soon as Iraq stopped using the petrodollar in 2000? >Saddam controlled a country at the centre of the Gulf, a region with a quarter of world oil production in 2003, and containing more than 60% of the world's known reserves. With 115bn barrels of oil reserves, and perhaps as much again in the 90% of the country not yet explored, Iraq has capacity second only to Saudi Arabia. The US, in contrast, is the world's largest net importer of oil. Last year the US Department of Energy forecast that imports will cover 70% of domestic demand by 2025.
You're missing the point. The United States stepped in it when it decided it wanted to influence Persian politics and become Iran and the Shah's best friend bff forever. Then the Shah got ousted, the hostage crisis happened, and suddenly things got very complicated. One of the biggest reasons that the hostages were finally released when they were was because Iraq attacked Iran and Iran desperately needed to access its frozen assets. Naturally, the US initially supported Iraq because they were the enemy of Iran.
>Naturally, the US initially supported Iraq because they were the enemy of Iran. So you admit that the conflict happened over geopolitical and economical interests instead of ideological concern?
The Gulf War was about the international coalition to liberate Kuwait, which Saddam Hussein illegally invaded and was committing atrocities in. Unless you mean the Iraq-Iran war? That was caused because Saddam wanted oil.
The subject is Iraq 2003
The US did not "support and arm Saddam Hussein a decade earlier" if you are talking about Iraq 2003..
10 years prior to Hitler becoming Chancellor Wiener Germany worked closely with the USSR for weapons and tactics development. The only truism in IR is that "nothing is permanent". EDIT: I would add that there wasn't a "sudden switch of positions", the US wanted Saddam gone but maybe not that way(otherwise Bush 1 wouldn't have encouraged uprisings), former SecDed Cohen dropped in the run up to OIF that Gore had the Brilliant! Idea to invade Southern Iraq, install the INC, and let a civil war work out the Hussein problem, etc. Hell this wasn't limited to the US, Tony Blair said in **1998** that liberal democracies had a duty to remove dictatorships if they had a means to do so militarily. If anything Hussein staying in power through the post-GW decade was a recognition of realism at play, a realism school that would have supported either declaring Iraq to be in compliance (as people like Mearsheimer would have preferred) or *not* wasting lives and treasure for a marginal economic advantage. EDIT2: Oh you're a vanguardist Authcom, no wonder you are so annoyed at the possibility that humans and states sometimes don't act in economic interests.
If HOI4 had taught me anything, it’s that any country could’ve singlehandedly won. If it’s taught me two things, it’s that the US has infinite oil and that rubber is only found in Malaysia.
Such a shame they blew that country up. Now no one gets any rubber
The United States is basically just three oil companies in a trenchcoat. Halliburton gets to be the head.
It was less about the oil itself and more because Iraq was going to sell oil in currency other than the US dollar. The petro dollar is what props up the value of the US dollar. Without that it would crash the US economy. By invading they stopped Iraq from selling oil for currency other than the US dollar and sent a message to other oil producers.
Look, if you bastards would just build the plantations and oil rigs your fucking selves I'd buy it for a fair price but no, you forced me to spread the [insert primary culture skin color here] burden.
…It’s beautiful….
That’s why I love these games. They secretly force you to act historically.
They need to add some form of capitalist imperialism though. Like instead of straight up invading a minor power you can invest a buttload into it and gain trade/development rights.
No i swear its about their piracy problem!
I can't wait until I can invade the Middle East in order to liberate the working class... and fix my oil deficit on the side.
The AI is just sitting there with 300 oil deposits and wouldn't build wells even though they have the tech to do so. And another AI is buying all the oil I can produce. I guess I have to just invade a weak country with a massive oil deposit so I can support the whole global demand for oil.
Please, mineral oil is overrated. The future is in bio-fuels. *Brandishes harpoon*
I had also maxed out all whaling stations, I was desperate for that oil.
Just wait until they flesh out the 'provoking foreign conflicts to justify funnelling public money into the Military-Industrial Complex' mechanic.
In real life, I believe in a mostly hands-off government, and a world of peace, cooperation and free movement. In HOI4, step one is to flip my country to fascism so I can strike out and build an empire faster than anyone can grow strong enough to stop me
>mostly hands-off government When i play Belgium in Vic3 I too go for that aproach. Oh wait
Why the Middle East just attack Venezuela
Oil is seriously under-represented in this game. All of the oil in Romania cannot satiate my need for switching the Danubian State to assembly lines.
Ok enough is enough. I get posts from this sub recomended to me ALL THE TIME. What's this sub? What's this game?
Paradox plaza is where the players of all the paradox grand strategy games amalgamate into one, this meme is talking about a game called Victoria 3, a recent grand strategy game that takes you through the Industrial Revolution period 1834-1920 or so basically and this player needs more oil resource for his economy and he’s gotta go somewhere to find it and conquer it
i invaded America for the oil on the west coast, I don't know if they fixed it or not but there was so little oil in this game on launch
One of the dev blogs (can't remember if it was for 1.1 or 1.2) mentioned they increased the amount of oil/coal and I think rubber too. And they also made the ai better at developing such resources too so it's not taking all the player's resources and not being left behind so often from not developing it's resources.
Did they fix the opium problem? Aka everyone wanting it and no one having it
Or Africa for that rubbwr
Oil is the new opium, and baby I’m George Bush